Hazel: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm Hazel Showell, and I'm here to guide you through the toughest transitions in life, business, and even love. I've spent 30 years coaching CEOs and founders to navigate the messy stuff of life from selling a business to the loss of something or someone important to repairing relationships and restoring confidence.

Welcome to endings.

Karen: There's lots of people that I have been used to talking to on a daily, weekly basis that I won't, I'll still see but I won't have that same level of contact and I found myself getting quite emotional

Hazel: Karen Campbell Williams is retiring and her story is a great example of recognising when it's time to move on.

Even when things are going really well. After you've heard Karen's story, I'll explain a practical way to decide if it's time to go and the importance of identity in navigating this type of ending. [00:01:00] But more about that later. First, let's go back to the beginning. Karen has spent her working life at the accounting firm Grant Thornton as the first female tax partner and reaching the top of her career ladder.

Karen: For the last almost 30 years, 29 and a half years, I have been working tax, so I help mainly corporates and some individuals. That's been my sort of main focus. What I've been doing for the last four and a bit years is running our tax business nationally. So I've had lots of different hats and roles and different things I've done over the years.

Um, but I still kept a client base even during the last four years, a much reduced client base running our tax business.

Hazel: Her family life is pretty busy too.

Karen: Outside of work, my husband and I have got five children, we've got three grandchildren. I'm the chief organiser in our family in terms of all the social events, getting everyone together, making sure that we all see each other.

Our house on a Sunday is full. Regularly we have [00:02:00] 16, 17, 18 for Sunday dinner.

Hazel: Karen recognised the importance of good work life balance, which was instilled in her by some hard to ignore experience.

Karen: And the two partners who recruited me originally into Grant Thornton, both of those, after their retirement, died much younger and maybe didn't have the retirement they might have wanted.

That was a long time ago. But then I saw other colleagues, friends, things happen, which all sounds a bit kind of depressing in some ways, but it made me stop and think that actually Enoughness is probably the expression I would use. That there's enoughness and actually having, or have more choices in how you spend your time seemed to me to be very attractive really

Hazel: really. She's also got the kind of perspective that you can only gain by helping people who've fled a war zone.

Karen: I just realized that I didn't mention our Ukrainian family because that was one of my sort of points as well. They've been living with us for since April last year, yeah, [00:03:00] but that really did help me refocus what was important in life as well actually.

Hazel: But there was one particular moment that prompted Karen's decision to retire.

Karen: I've been enormously fortunate to be, I mean the opportunities that I've had, well I've been at Grant Thornton, so I've been huge. And I'd just been to Harvard Business School on an executive training course, which was fantastic. And I'd come back from that, and I had all these things booked in.

And I remember one Sunday sitting in, I knew I had board papers and things to read for the Tuesday. And all All the family arrived at different times, and they all came at different times, and obviously you're really glad to see them. But I sort of suddenly caught myself thinking, almost feeling a tiny bit resentful that they all didn't come at the same time, and and that just made me stop in my tracks a little bit and think, actually, where are your priorities in life?

And it was almost like, it sounds like a tiny insignificant thing, but it almost felt like that was a big sort of [00:04:00] Um, turning point in my mind, if that makes sense, yeah.

Hazel: Well, it does, I suppose, because, you know, with, especially with five kids and three grandkids, if you find yourself thinking, why can't you be more convenient to me?

Like, to fit into my timing, like, maybe it's the timing that's wrong. But if that's the, like, saying how you prioritise the people you love versus also the work you love, and it's, it is attention. Yeah,

Karen: it's, it's a funny thing, isn't it? As you get older, you I suppose reflect on maybe how you were when you were younger as well with, um, your parents because you now put yourself in the shoes that they were in, et cetera.

So it's, it's an interesting thing, but it can be quite emotional. I think sometimes because it's just making sure that you, you look back and you spend the time, you know, like you only get one life, don't you? So it's spending the time in the best way. possible, I guess, that all sort of came together.

Hazel: But isn't it interesting how easy it is to [00:05:00] lose sight of the fact we have one life and, you know, what ultimately is going to matter and that kind of natural flow of time from when we're young and kids naturally take and parents give and that's kind of the order of things.

But as the parents age, then it's their turn to take. And the children turn to give and again, and the cycle of life carries on, but it's that sense of when you recognize, Oh, we're at that turning point where I might need to give more support, more in a different way. Um, and yeah, I want enough time to be there, especially with all those grandkids.

That's fantastic. Okay. So, you know, it's a huge step. I love your precision, by the way, because you know, 29 and a bit. I think most people would say kind of 30 years of service. So with that kind of length of service with such a huge decision, what was it that helped you to feel, yes, this is the right decision?[00:06:00]

Karen: I've always been a person who, you know, I think once you make a decision, you make it the right decision. Sorry, that sounds a bit strange, but I think you can frame in your own mind how decisions actually pan out in life. Sometimes there are things that are outside your control. So I think I'm always just a big believer in thinking about the things you can control and dealing with the things in your own way that you can't control because that will happen in life and throw things at you.

Um, but I guess once you make a decision, I think I've always been quite, you know, once I've made that decision, it's got to be the right decision. That's it.

Hazel: Making it happen. Yeah. Well, that's the key, isn't it? Then it's making sure enough people. So to make it happen. So who were the first people you told within your business and how did they react?

Karen: Well, the first. person I told was my boss, who's our CEO, um, and is my people manager. So I [00:07:00] think there was a bit of surprise. Um, I then next spoke to our COO, Malcolm, who, um, I've always sort of, he's been probably one of my go to people as well, really within the firm in terms of being able to speak to, and I think once they understood my thinking. They were surprised, but I think once they understood my thinking and why I wanted to do what I was doing, then they were really supportive, actually, and really, they were really helpful in moving that forward.

Hazel: It's lovely, isn't it, when you think you've made the right decision and other people are, yes, initially shocked, but very quickly come around it and then weigh in with you, which is, which is lovely.

And if we're thinking about that decision, because I think if people are listening to this, podcast and thinking, is it time for me to stop? There's a couple of really interesting concepts that you raise, and one of them was enoughness. And we know it's totally made up word, but it's really useful to capture some of this.

So can you tell me a bit more about how you define [00:08:00] what is enough?

Karen: I've been Well, I would say fortunate, but I've also worked really hard to get to where I am, and I'm in a position financially now where I'm secure. Um, that's not to say if I go crazy that, um, the money won't run out, but I'm in a position I think where I was fortunate to be able to make that choice.

I know a lot of people aren't and therefore when you look at it, what does enoughness mean to me? It's having enough financial security to be able to, you know, make those choices. You could keep working full time, earning more and more money. But actually for me, there's, there's a point where you say, well, actually that's enough.

Um, you know, what's important, family, health, fulfilment. having a purpose in life is still important to me. So that's something that I've been thinking about a lot. Um, and I know it's sort of a cliche in some ways almost, but you know, people will never look back and say, I wish to have worked more. You think about the time you've been spending time with family, et cetera.

Hazel: But it's [00:09:00] interesting how many people, um, almost have this sense of I need more. And when I've got the more or the bigger, if I've got a bigger house, better car, if I had those, other things, I'll be happy. And I say, the minute you put your happiness on something like that, you're probably never going to get it because even if you have a yacht, there's always someone with a bigger yacht.

And then when do you stop? When is it enough? And I think that's such a powerful concept of being able to say, for me, this is enough. I can do something good with this. I don't need to keep going and that was really important. And I also wanted to talk about identity because that's usually the kicker, but I wonder if you can share a little bit how you think you've worked with identity as you've prepared for this.

Karen: Yeah, and I can't see it was plain sailing all the way through having made that decision. I think there was a bit of a rollercoaster through all of this, so, you know, in reality, what's the first question that people ask you when they meet you, it's usually, what do you do? Well, maybe [00:10:00] not the first question, but one of the, one of the first questions, um, and that, that's quite a big thing, isn't it?

So for 30 years, I've been a tax partner at Grant Thornton. It kind of frames your identity in lots of ways, um, and, and actually quite, you know, relatively, I mean, I wouldn't say a massively high profile, but I've got like, you know, a relatively high profile, certainly in the Northwest. There is a bit of you that thinks, oh, well, that's all sort of disappearing.

But actually for me, I guess I've never really focused in on that in a way. I don't sort of identify myself in that way. What I did find hard was As I started to pass across my client responsibilities, probably more so as I started, because, because over the years you, you know, like you have different clients, you move on.

The bit that was really hard for me, um, if I'm honest, is watching and it was a real sort of, I was really torn, but watching, um, Hazel, it's not You. Hazel, another Hazel. Hazel who has taken over as my, [00:11:00] as our head of tax. Um, and is doing a fantastic job, by the way. Um, watching her going into the role that I was doing while I was still there, that that was a really weird feeling because there were decisions that I would have been making that I wasn't making anymore and I, it took me probably a couple of months to get my head in the right space while that was happening. But as I say, I was also in a position where I was her biggest cheerleader because she was in my team and you know, I, all the way through the last four years, I saw that development.

So it's, it's a really strange one to get your mind round, if that makes sense. So that, that was probably the hardest bit for me, but I've kind of looked at what, what am I about? And actually probably my biggest, if you want to use purpose as the word, or the why, or whatever it might be, is around actually sort of helping and supporting people to get to where they want to be.

So if I look back over my career, yes, working with clients to achieve what they want to achieve and sometimes getting to know them a lot of the time, getting to know [00:12:00] them and their families and et cetera, and them as individuals, but also probably where did I get the biggest buzz over the years in terms of what I've done?

It's working with people in the team. Watching people progress and helping them as they've moved through to director, to partner, they've progressed their careers, coaching people, connecting people outside. Well, that's always been a big thing for me. If I can connect people, if I can give someone a helping hand along the way, why wouldn't you do that?

So, and then social mobility, that was the big thing for me really over the last four years. That's another big area for me because I was our sponsor for social mobility on our board. And that's something being from a working class family in Glasgow, that's something that's really important to me as an individual.

I got opportunities that have helped me get to where I want to be. And I want to be able to put that hand back and help other people. Um, to, you know, it shouldn't matter what your background is. You should have the same opportunities to be able to progress. So, so really I've reframed all of that around, I guess for me, my [00:13:00] identity and my purpose is more around that whole sort of area of social mobility, helping people, working with people, coaching people, than necessarily being a partner in a large accountancy firm.

Hazel: I was fascinated that you did that, particularly because there is a gender difference in terms of how men and women, um, work on identity. So men do tend to identify more with what they do and can find this kind of ending really difficult. It's not saying that women don't find these difficult. Cause yes, of course you do.

And you're letting go of things you've treasured and built up over years. And I'm clean with the relationships, but identity is often more socially constructed. You know, who we are to other people is layered around and when you can tap back into something that has a longer duration. Let's say your purpose, that's not going to end your sense of what matters to you in the world isn't going to end. And when you can focus on that bit, then you're back to being growth mindset. Okay, so if I'm [00:14:00] still that purpose led person, now what? So it is a bit different and I think that's always fascinating. And if we're, if you're looking back, is there anything you realized actually just didn't matter.

Karen: It's interesting, isn't it, because you may say title doesn't matter, um, reward doesn't matter. In reality, it doesn't, but I think it does at the time. It was important to me as I came through in that it was more about a sense of that what I was doing was valued as how I described it.

Fairness. Fairness, being treated appropriately for what I'd done. And actually, I don't think I would say it doesn't matter. It does matter. Oh, no, it does. It absolutely matters, but it's in the whole scheme of things. It's less important I suppose for me now, having done what I've done within the firm, but I guess for me, it was important and it is important for people to have that recognition.

Hazel: Oh, yeah, it's hugely important, but I always think it's [00:15:00] interesting when you get to a point of you can recognize this importance, but for it's nuanced, isn't it? So the title is about. um, yes, of course, power and position, but, you know, it is recognition. It is fairness. It's the, the visible title of everything you've done.

So that's why, you know, when, once if firms aren't giving people the titles that are appropriate, it stings because it feels like you can't take your respected place in that system. And it's huge.

Karen: There's also for me a piece around being a role model for other people as well. Um, so, you know, as, as a woman, I was the first, I think I was definitely the first female partner in the Northwest in our firm.

I'm probably maybe the second in the North. There was no one else. There were no other female partners, or not many, that I can remember back then that had young children. So when I became a partner, my daughters were five and eight. Um, yeah, and then obviously I had my [00:16:00] son while I was a partner. So, I think there is a piece around people seeing, and obviously it's much more, thankfully the world's moved on enormously since then, but the whole thing about role modeling and all of that as well, and people seeing that it's possible to do these, and I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible to do.

Hazel: But as you say, when people can join a firm and look at the top and see somebody who's like them, whether it's a woman, somebody who's working class, you know, it's all the different elements where we need to be able to look and see ourselves. So they think, Oh, I could have a place here. This could be really good versus looking at a board that just doesn't reflect you and you think, Oh, um, is this going to be really hard?

So, yeah, I think that that's the other interesting, I noticed that the work it would have taken to be the first one. And to be the first, you know, even if, even if it's the second, again, love your tax precision. Won't claim things that are not true.[00:17:00]

I love it. Um, you know, so I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's just being able to look back. And I think it's such a, a lovely moment in some ways that once you have. reach that point of calm and I know you're days away from your actual last day that, um, where you can start to look back and think, so what have I learned?

You know, what would I pass on? What advice would I give to people who are starting out now? It's almost, what advice would you give to your 29 year old self, the version of you that first started at GT?

Karen: I guess, um, what advice would I give myself? I think be Authentic, that's really important to me. That's always been something that's been really, really important to me.

It's about being your true self and being approachable. Being someone that people can talk to and come to, that's always been really, really important to me. And that authenticity, I think, is really important in any leader because otherwise I think it all just starts to sort of fall [00:18:00] apart, doesn't it? So, authenticity, hugely important.

Um, and, and I guess to some extent when I first started in my career, probably not so much by the time I'd got to 29, but you know, as a 23 / 24 year old, whatever, having come out of university, didn't really know what countenance did, I don't know, you know, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't have anyone really that I could talk to about any of that.

I probably did try and you. be something a little bit different than I was at first, you know, like because you think you've got to fit in or you've got to be slightly different. So I think being yourself is really, really important. That would probably be a key piece of advice. And then the second thing, and I did do this actually, but probably with a lot of encouragement, would I have done it without some of the leaders and partners and things who sponsored me over the years is that sort of piece of pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and doing things that, that stretch you. When something feels scary, and I mean scary in a good way rather than scary in a bad way, if that makes sense. [00:19:00] Scary exciting. Yeah, scary exciting. That's generally when you're doing something that will, when you look back you realize has been something that's That's really sort of made you a better person, a stronger person, a better individual almost.

Hazel: When you look, thinking of this process you've just been through, this making a decision, letting everyone know, was there anything unexpected for you?

Karen: Um I mean, if you think about the hardest time, because I, I made the decision probably 18 months ago, but I couldn't tell anyone for a while. Not that that sounds like secret squirrel, doesn't it?

It wasn't that. It was just, there was a lot going on within our business. We were sort of looking at how we launched the next stage of our strategy for the business. I couldn't even tell my team, so that was really hard because I'm a very open person. So I really struggled with that. If I'm honest, once it was like public, it was open and people knew that was almost like a relief for me almost in a way, if that makes sense.

When I got to that stage, um, there wasn't anything [00:20:00] that unexpected. I mean, the bit that I. find quite hard. Well, I've sort of had to learn to sort of accept some of this is that I naturally just do things and then people will, the, the sort of comments that I had back from people, the level of those comments, the messages I got were quite overwhelming.

It's points for me because I just don't think of myself that way, that probably doesn’t make sense. Sorry. So that was kind of a bit unexpected for me, but lovely, but yeah, it's just a strange one to get your mind around.

Hazel: Well, but as you say, sometimes you don't know how much you are respected, loved, liked. And then suddenly you get this, you know, flood of people to sort of, What do you mean you're going?

Or, um, you know, just be able to share their thoughts about you and share what they feel. And it is, yeah, I can imagine. It's pretty overwhelming. Also, hopefully it's testament to all those amazing relationships over [00:21:00] nigh on 30 years. Uh, and I think that the good thing is many of those probably won't be lost, but they will continue.

You will maintain a great network. And I think that's the bit of when I talk about, you know, is it unexpected? It's quite nice if the unexpected thing is like, Oh, I got some really nice comments. I wasn't expecting it, but if I flutter it, and I mean, that's the thing now is that, and have you learned anything about yourself through this process?

Karen: Have I learned? Things. I don't know. I mean, I guess, um, I'm quite emotional as well. I'm quite an emotional person, so I find this process of saying not necessarily goodbye, but au revoir until I see them again. There's lots of people that I have been used to talking to on a daily, weekly basis that I won't, I'll still see, but I won't have that same level of contact.

And I find that so I've surprised myself sometimes when I find myself getting quite emotional here [00:22:00] a little bit, although I, I do. You know, I am quite an emotional person anyway.

Hazel: But that's fine. It's interesting because that's something I do experience when I talk to other people who are retiring or just ending a full time role is that it sometimes it's those day to day rituals and habits that it's the person you walk past every day to say good morning to because that's your route to go and get a cup of tea.

And Suddenly we think, well, that's stopped, that's ended, there's some very strange things ending that, that you don't even know you're going to miss until you don't do it anymore. So, I'm not surprised, emotional. It's a lot, it's a lot because you think about the big steps. Right. I'm not going to turn up to work anymore and can't introduce myself as that in the pub.

Okay. What can I do? But when, as you say, when you've worked on who are you now? What matters to you? What do you want to work on? That's really important. So that kind of makes sense of me asking them. So what does the future look like for you now? [00:23:00]

Karen: to be honest, um, I don't know. I do know a bit. How exciting.

I don't know. It is exciting. I'm not phased by it. I'm taking my time. What I do know is that I do want to have that sense of things to get out of bed for in the morning. And some of that will be sort of non exec director work. So I, I am, I'm joining the board of a company. I've made a couple of little investments.

So I'm joining the board of one of those companies, a company called Soren's House, which, if anyone wants to have a look, does beautiful. I'll do a little plug here, right? It does beautiful. And the other, the other business I'm investing in is Kala, which is beautiful footwear. So if anyone wants to have a look at those, they can.

So there's a bit of sort of activity around that. I'd like to do a few more non exec type directorships. Charity work. I've been involved with the Prince's Trust now for 10, 11 years on their Northwest Development Committee, so I will stay involved with that. I want to do some mentoring, et cetera. And, you know, things that will naturally draw my focus will be things [00:24:00] around that sort of social mobility, because that's one of my sort of big areas, or, you know, it could be something with professional services as well, because that's obviously my history and I've learned so much.

So I've got quite a lot of sort of. overview and knowledge, I think. And you just think there's transferable skills there, so yeah.

Hazel: With the sound of that, we definitely can't use the word retirement because you are not stopping anytime soon. That sounds like full days, but maybe more flexible days

Karen: Much more flexible and probably maybe only two to three days a week.

Lots more holiday. That's high on the list. I've always, I've always been the person who's focused my holidays every year, so I book at the beginning of the year, get things in the diary, so um, my husband and I are off to Mauritius on our, our next phase shall we call it, so that'll be lovely. And we've got quite a lot of things booked in already, so there's an element of that.

Also really, really want to join a choir. I've wanted to do that for a while. So that's on my list of things to do now that I've got a bit more time. And I think just some of the other things like, uh, Tony, my husband and I, we do ballroom and Latin dancing. [00:25:00] Not that well, but we love it. So again, a bit more flexibility to do some things around that as well.

So, and then the family that I've talked about already, more time with family. So yeah, just to

Hazel: the one thing that I love your growth mindset all the way through, it's like, yeah, not great. But dancing, but we're going to get better. We love

Karen: it. So yeah, and it's really good for your, um, your brain as well.

And I find it a real great de stressor as well, going and having a bit of a dance because you've got to think about where your hands and legs are going to be.

Hazel: But if you think, you know, your, your, your job so long has been cognitive, it's going to have to do a lot of kind of mental work. It is lovely to just to give into the somatic, the body, to just move and, you know, and then appreciate and enjoy that. So, well, that sounds like a rather lovely way to spend your time. And on that way, this has been a very lovely way to spend our time. And it's so nice to see and hear from you. Thank you so much for joining us, Karen. I'm hoping anybody who's [00:26:00] considering retiring will hear that list and go, that sounds fun.

Carrying on the idea of somatic techniques. I thought I'd share how you make an important decision. Now, whenever we get faced with a dilemma, so, you know, a binary choice that we're, we're really struggling with, we know from research that human beings are terrible at making those kinds of decisions. It's not much better than flipping a coin.

So the thing to do is to be able to tap in to your body's wisdom. And the way we do that, it distinguishes between our two types of thinking, our conscious mind versus our unconscious mind. Now, I like thinking of this as an elephant with a rider, our big, powerful unconscious with this puny rider on top that, you know, when the two things want the same, thing, it's easy.

Yeah, the rider [00:27:00] can have the illusion of control, but if that elephant sees a snake in the road, it's bolting and you probably can't stop it. So the key is if you can use that powerful unconscious. Research tells us our conscious mind can only handle five to nine bits of concrete information versus our unconscious mind, which can handle 8 million.

But we get in our own head and get in our own way. We're determined to think it through. And actually what we need to do is feel it. The best technique is to speak fluent elephant, to tap into the unconscious wisdom. And that is somatic decision making. It is a fantastic skill to develop, to be able to tell the conscious to shush, while you listen to what the unconscious has to say by the only language it has, your body.

So, this needs a piece of paper and a pen, and it's going to sound very strange. But on a blank piece of paper, you can learn how to tap into the unconscious processing. [00:28:00] Now, this technique is very old wisdom. It's originally a Buddhist technique, but it's been validated by the latest neuroscience. In fact, Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize for his approach to the two thinking systems, which is shown in his book, Thinking Fast and Slow.

On your blank piece of paper, draw one horizontal line with the words representing your dilemma on either side. So, for example, you might have stay on the left hand side and go on the right hand side. And then you draw a vertical line in the middle of the page to form a cross. And that breaks the dilemma with two new options.

The word both, you write at the top, and the word neither, at the bottom. And those two are always the same, only the dilemma changes, either horizontal. Shush that mind, ground your feet and tune in. Now, I do know this will look like career [00:29:00] Ouija boards. It's not. But, place your hands on the word stay and tune in and notice what you feel.

Do you feel hot or cold? Tense? Relaxed? Is there a feeling somewhere in your stomach or your chest? Your heart flutter? Just notice it. And now move to go tune in

Now, do remember, if the answer is a sentence that your conscious mind is speaking, so tell it to Shush, will you notice? How do you feel about go? I've worked with people who very quickly have said, well, I feel excited and scared for these emotions rolling around my body when I, you know, look at the word go.

Um, and others realize actually. I'm still in love with my job. I still want to stay. It just feels too scary to go, but you notice the feelings, not the sentences. [00:30:00] But, for completeness, you move up to the word both. Because both suggest, okay, so what could I do that's both stay and go? I know this sounds a bit strange, but figure it out.

Because for some, there might be the option of a secondment. So you're not working for your organisation, but you haven't given up your contract. So you haven't left, you are still staying, but you're also going for a little while. And then you bring back what you learn. It may be that you do the same kind of job as somewhere else.

So again, there's some continuity. So you're neither staying nor going. It's an interesting one. You could say, I just want to do a different job, but I want to stay here because I like the company or the organization. And what you'll find with neither is, if you tune into that, you should feel no energy.

And that tells you that the right answer is on the page. It's there somewhere. You've just got to find it. But if you feel that there [00:31:00] might be something in neither, then it's okay, back to the drawing board, time to think again. What is a different option that I haven't even thought about? Now you can use this technique for any binary dilemma, because you just simply break it by both or neither to become a tetralemma as in 4. Now, because often we do know the answer to the problems we're wrestling with. We just don't like it or we're worried about what it might mean or how we'll do it. The first step is to know the right choice and take it with confidence and you can always reach out for help if you need it.

Often a big type of the change that Karen's going through is identity, how you feel about yourself. I touched on this in episode five of series one. So you might want to listen to that if you haven't already, but don't forget. There's so much about you that won't change. You will carry everything that is good with you.

And what [00:32:00] hasn't been good, well, with much love and respect, you leave it behind. You don't need to carry it. You can look forward with excitement to figure out who you want to be when you've finished paying for who you had to be. That's a Carl Jung quote, by the way. And identity challenges can be as simple and as hard as how will I introduce myself in the pub?

If I'm not the partner or CEO or founder of XYZ company in my research on how it feels to sell your business, it came up a surprising amount of times as an issue. As part of this identity challenge, so figure out your answer. I've had practice thinking about the day I will say, Hi, I'm Hazel. I make a damn fine margarita.

So what will your answer be? One of the ideas that Karen came up with, which was enoughness is also useful to reflect on because we can think of ourselves as, Oh, I'm only successful if I [00:33:00] have X size of house or X cars or whatever. But when you can say, actually I have enough. I have what I need. It's okay.

Then. Ever you think was the definition of success, you can let that go and recognize that you have what you need. It's a very personal journey when you decide I have done enough. Interestingly, my research on selling your business, most people start business for. A very logical reason, but they end it for an emotional one.

And the most common phrase I heard during that was people saying, enough now. And when you can think in both senses of that word that I have enough and it is enough, I am enough, I've done enough, I can stop. You don't need anyone's permission. It is your choice. Like certainly if you've had a play with the tetralemma, you might find that's a useful one to do with your family because they can then almost witness. [00:34:00] What comes out, that this is genuinely the right choice for you. Even if it doesn't make you as much money, or you don't have the biggest yacht, or whatever it is, it's simply recognizing together, it's time. I hope that helps.

My thanks to Karen Campbell Williams for sharing her story. I hope you enjoyed this episode of endings. And if you'd like to share your thoughts, I'd love to hear them. You can reach me at HazelCS on LinkedIn or Twitter. And if you're exploring endings in your own life, then I have a template for the Tetralemma approach I talked about that you can download.

I also have a five step endings worksheet that's specific for listeners of this podcast. It's based on years of research into endings of all kinds, and I won't ask for your details to get it. If you need it, you can have it. Click on the link in the show notes to download your Tetralemma worksheet now, if you would like a copy.

[00:35:00] And finally, if you know somebody who might benefit from hearing about retirement or knowing when it's time to move on, then do share this episode with them. I'm Hazel Showell, and I hope you'll join me again for another episode of Endings.