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Hello and welcome to a new episode
of The Art Engager podcast.

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Today I'm chatting with Beth Clare
McManus, a coaching psychologist,

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artist and researcher based in the UK.

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But before our chat, if you haven't
already, do go back and listen to the

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last episode with Jessica Hartshorn
about engaging visitors through drawing.

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And do also listen to my two recent
solo episodes created to celebrate the

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launch of my book, The Art Engager.

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Episode 136 explores what questioning
practices are, why I created

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them, and how they can help you to
create engaging museum experiences.

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And episode 137 does a deep dive on
one of the key questioning practices

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from my book, The Universal.

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So listen in to discover how the
Universal came about and how you can use

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it with art and objects in the museum.

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And please help me to spread
the word about my book.

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You can do this in a number of ways.

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You can give a rating or write a short
review of The Art Engager on Amazon,

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Goodreads or your favourite book platform.

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You can also post a photo or
video on social media with The

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Art Engager in its new home.

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And don't forget to tag me in.

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So back to today's guest,
Beth Clare McManus.

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So Beth's work as a coach and supervisor
aims to support people to be happy and

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well in their professional practice.

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In this episode,  Beth shares her
background in organizational and

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coaching psychology and how her core
values of authenticity, fairness

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and integrity shape her work.

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She also talks about how she rediscovered
her creativity later in life and how it

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now plays a key role in her coaching.

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We explore the unique potential of museum
and gallery spaces for coaching and how

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the space itself can become part of the
coaching process, creating a softer,

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more reflective environment for clients.

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We explore the ethical considerations
of coaching in public spaces, such as

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confidentiality and managing emotional
responses, and compare how coaching

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clients and coaches in supervision
respond differently to these spaces.

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If you're looking to explore innovative
ways of using museum spaces for coaching,

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or enhance your understanding of how
public spaces can foster reflection

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and growth, this episode is for you.

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Hi Beth, and welcome to
The Art Engager podcast.

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Hi Claire, nice to be here with

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you.

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So Beth, can you tell our listeners
who you are and what you do?

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Yes, so I am Beth Clare McManus.

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I live in the UK in Manchester and
I am a coaching psychologist, artist

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and experimenter, I suppose is why
I'm here talking to you, thinking

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about my practice as a whole.

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Usually through the medium of
academic research, but also a bit of

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experimental practice in there as well.

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And can you tell us a little bit about the
values that inform and guide your work?

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Yeah, I think this is a really
interesting question because I think I

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have a really strong sense of what my
personal values are, and it's only when

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I was considering are these the same
values that drive my work that I think

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there's definitely crossover because
I'm a self employed  one person band.

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And the, there is a whole thing
there about who I am is how I work

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and how I coach and how I research.

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But I think there's
some slight differences.

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I think my personal values are
typically around authenticity and

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fairness and integrity, and I would
say they definitely show up in my work.

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But actually, and I don't know if you
would call this a value it's a, oh I think

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it is a value and it's a core strength of
mine, but love is really the driving force

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of my work in a way that probably, as a
person, it's less explicit or intentional.

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So that's love for my work, love for my
profession, but most importantly love

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for other people and their experience.

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I'm very driven as a whole, my background
is actually I came to coaching psychology

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through organizational psychology.

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And the kind of heart of my work is
trying to make work better for people or

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enable people to have happy working lives.

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So I would say love is the
value in my work that is more

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intentional and explicit.

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I think it's my biggest strength, so
it's part of me but I wouldn't say

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that I lead with an intention of love
in my, day to day existence, but it's

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definitely an intentional part of my work.

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And I was taking a look at your website
before we started the recording,

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this morning, and I was struck by
something you said about You bring

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the person you are to how you coach.

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You're a very creative person
and you bring a lot of creativity

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and you're interested in arts
based approaches to coaching.

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So can you tell us a
little bit about that?

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yeah, I definitely subscribe
to the notion of, if I think

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specifically about my coaching
work, who you are is how you coach.

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And also increasingly noticing
that I think some of who you

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are is who you coach, that might
seem obvious just to some people.

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I've been a late arrival at that
revelation noticing that the people

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who want to work with me, want to
work with me because of who I am and

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that informing my practice, but also
that there are threads of commonality

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with the people I'm working with that
draw them to me in the first place.

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So there's a really interesting
exploration that, you know, for another

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day there around our identity, our sense
of self, and then the work that we do

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and who that leads us to working with.

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But in terms of that creative identity
piece, creativity is something that

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it's something I was very connected
to as a young person and then as, as

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typically happens for lots of people
school and the kind of regimented art

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education space took my creativity
away and also teenage shame and ego

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and wanting to be cool and not wanting
to be in a choir anymore or play the

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violin anymore and all of those other
parts of my kind of creative expression.

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But yeah, I did GCSE art and really
struggled with kind of replicating

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other people's work and other people's
style of work and equated, I think,

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my creative self with art very firmly.

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And as I've got older, into my
30s I reconnected with drawing.

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I started doing some illustration
and found that actually it was

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there all along, this ability
to express myself creatively.

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And so over the last few years, I've
been really sitting with that and trying

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to figure out what does that mean.

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And for me, creativity is such an
innate part of me that it's there even

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when I'm not drawing or embroidering
or making ceramics or whatever kind

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of arts based exploration I'm doing.

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It's in the way that I think,
it's in the way that I talk,

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it's in the way that I show up.

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It's in the way that I listen, it's in
the way that I interpret information.

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It's yeah it's moving that sensation
of creativity as something you do

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to being a quality about how we are
and how we show up in the world.

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So it's probably quite a long
winded way of saying that.

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Often when people come to me to work
with me, if the creativity is the draw,

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there's a bit of an assumption that
means we're going to be doing loads

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of experimental, arts based things,
and that isn't necessarily the case.

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Most of the work that I do is like this,
like a dialogue, like a conversation

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between two people, but the creativity
is kind of part of the process.

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It's in the room with us, if you like,
because it's in me and it's also outside

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of me and everywhere without getting
too existential, but Yeah, it's a

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part of my work as well as part of me.

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And following on from that interest
in exploring your creativity has led

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you into your work, exploring the
potential and you also use the word

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the 'edges', which I really love the
edges and potential of using creativity

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and arts based coaching approaches.

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And that is one of the reasons I
wanted to talk to you on this podcast,

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because you have in experimenting with
using museum and gallery spaces for

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coaching and coaching supervision.

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And I'd love you to tell our listeners
how you first became interested

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in using these spaces, these very
particular environments for coaching.

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Yeah, it's a great question to ponder.

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How did I arrive here?

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Because it feels like I've now done
it and doing it and writing about it.

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So it's been nice to revisit what was
it particularly that took me there.

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I think there's a kind of an environmental
or contextual element which is that

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when I first started inviting people
to join me in gallery spaces it was

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just coming off the back of lockdown
and so where everything had moved

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online and there was a real draw for
people to want to do things in person.

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The idea of replacing someone's home
backdrop, and all of it's for those

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who share it, some people obviously
blur their backgrounds or put

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other backgrounds on, that's okay.

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But for those who share a little slice
of their home, to move from that into,

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bookable meeting rooms that are typically
very sterile, white boxes with, really

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uncomfortable chairs and a kind of
probably oversized table that feels

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like it's getting in between you and the
person that you're trying to work with.

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And there are other spaces available
to book, I'm exaggerating there, but it

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just didn't feel like the right thing.

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So I think when I was thinking about,
well, if I was to move back to, or

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move some of my practice back to being
in person what does that look like?

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What's the potential there?

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And I, a lot of the ideas that I have
in my work are typically things that

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originate in my own practice, my own
reflective practice particularly.

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So Introducing arts based approaches
to coaching is not my idea at all.

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But in my practice, my arts
based approaches have originated

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in things that I do for myself.

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So illustration emerged when I
was 30 as a means of reflecting.

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It was a way of processing
what was happening to me and

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what I'd been doing in the day.

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And similarly, I have always, even
in the years where I've described not

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having a connection to creativity at
all, like intentionally have gone to

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gallery spaces, usually on my own, as
a really restorative space of kind of

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calm potential to think things through.

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So when I'm feeling a bit stuck or
a bit lost or a bit overwhelmed,

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I just need a bit of a reset.

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I need a bit of a pause,
a bit of a slowing down.

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Then gallery spaces have been
a really beautiful space.

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and I should say at this point, because
I'm very conscious that I'm saying

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galleries, I believe that collectively
in the cultural sector we talk about

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museums, but I'm not from that world.

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And so for me, there is a real distinction
between art galleries and museum spaces.

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Although they are museums containing
different types of collections.

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For me, Art galleries, specifically, are.

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The spaces that I have used and therefore
I don't think that's the edge of the

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opportunity, but it's the edge of what
I've been experimenting with so far.

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So yeah, because I'd been drawn
there in my own reflection, it

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felt like a really nice space.

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There's also a part about it being
accessible about it being free.

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I invited everyone that I work with to
make a donation to the space as a thank

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you and I hold membership, so I'm a
friend of the galleries that I worked

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in, that felt really important that
although it's a free space that doesn't

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mean I'm extracting from it, I'm working
in that space, I'm really using it to

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its full potential in lots of ways,
there is an exchange, but it is free.

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Like you could take someone there
and not incur a cost, which kind

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of increases the accessibility.

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And also I think people are really
drawn to things like coaching with

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cards or other things that they
can look at and interact with.

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So it just felt like, well,
let's again, like, you've drawn

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out that word about 'edges'.

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Like I always like to think about
potential as having edges and I

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always like to push against them.

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I don't want to go past.

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I always want to find like, what
is the limit of my practice?

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What is the limit of the possibility here?

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And yeah, they just felt like spaces
that offered a lot of potential.

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And the one other thing to add, the other
space that I was really drawn to and still

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haven't done anything in I was interested
in doing some coaching in a library.

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because I think that the social convention
of the space is also interesting.

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So in art galleries you can be
quite anonymous, you can wander

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around, you can talk, you can
converse, you can return to things.

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In libraries there's not as much
movement and there's also a sense

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of stillness, silence and other
different qualities in that space.

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So it's not that you can't have a
conversation and I'm not suggesting that

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we would be having a full blown, full
volume dialogue while everyone else is

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trying to study or read or Whatever other
brilliant activities are happening in the

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library, but I was interested in, well,
what if you had part of your coaching

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session, maybe outside the library, and
then you sat in silence together for 20

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minutes, half an hour, in the library.

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Almost used that as a bit of a pause.

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And you might be sat looking at each other
a bit Marina Abramovich, just holding eye

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contact and then moved back outside to
see, like, what's happened in that time.

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And there's something about the pause,
for sure, but there's also something

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about what is the space lending to
the person, to the client, to the

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coach, to the coaching in that.

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space.

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So that's definitely a more at the edges
of practice that I may or may not return

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to, but I was having a similar idea and
art galleries just felt a bit less a bit

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less of a hard sell to potential clients.

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Yeah, that's super interesting as
well, because museum professionals,

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when we, Think about the way people
behave in museums and art galleries and

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how they might modify their behavior.

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So in particular spaces if the
environment is perhaps quite imposing

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or very impressive, or this huge
architecture, people modify their

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behavior in response to that.

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So similar to being in a
library, you suddenly hear people

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talking outside in full voice.

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And then when they enter the space.

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their behaviour changes
and they start whispering.

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So Is it the space itself that's
interesting for you, or is it,

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the things within the space?

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I think it's both.

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I think that the objects within the space.

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are easier perhaps to
connect with for people.

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And that's almost when I talk about
the kind of library idea being a hard

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sell, this feels like it's an easy sell
because people are used to or may have

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experimented with cards with photographs
or imagery, like digital imagery, things

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like that in their coaching work before.

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So you'd need to ask some of the people
who came, but my understanding from

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some of our conversations is that,
yeah, there'll be lots of nice paintings

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and sculptures and, things for me to
look at and maybe one or two of those

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will provide me with some inspiration.

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And typically, there are objects
within the gallery space that people

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interact with and find meaning from.

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For me as a practitioner and the
person experimenting, if you like,

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with my practice in this way.

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The space is almost more interesting to
me than the objects within it, how we move

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around it, what it might be able to offer.

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And I talk a little bit in my book
chapter about this, about when I'm

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coaching, I typically use a metaphor
of giving the client arriving with

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a ball of wool or string, whichever
feels more comfortable for them.

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And that does feel important somehow
to say it doesn't have to be wool.

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I don't know why, could be
wool, could be string, but

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basically the idea of a thread.

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And for some people that's incredibly
tangled and knotty, for other

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00:16:45,331 --> 00:16:48,141
people it might be a bit looser,
but there might be one or two big

253
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knots hanging around in there.

254
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And I use the metaphor, or the analogy
of I'm just holding one end of that

255
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thread so that they can more easily
untangle everything that's there.

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And I think when I'm working in the, when
I've been working in the art galleries, I

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would say that I'm just pinning the end of
that thread to the wall for a little bit.

258
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I'm letting the space do the
work that I would be doing as

259
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coach, so I'm letting the space.

260
00:17:14,686 --> 00:17:20,246
space holds the person and their
question or their stuckness, the thing

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00:17:20,246 --> 00:17:24,126
that they're thinking about, is being
held by the whole gallery rather than

262
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by one person that they're speaking to.

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So I know that might be a little
abstract, but for me the space is more

264
00:17:32,236 --> 00:17:37,056
interesting in the same way that I
think I could pick that I could pick

265
00:17:37,056 --> 00:17:41,566
that conversation up and drop it in
the library, or drop it in a historical

266
00:17:41,566 --> 00:17:47,196
museum, or drop it in a public park,
or wherever, and it would be different

267
00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:48,716
because of the space that we're in.

268
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So the space itself for me is a big part
of the process in working in this way.

269
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If the space becomes the coach what is
the coach's role within the conversation?

270
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for me, in all coaching the
coach should be, the least

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important person in the equation.

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And so way that it shows up for
me when I'm inviting the space

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to be coach and doing so really
intentionally by leaving the space.

274
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It's about actually the
space creating softness.

275
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there's less intensity for me.

276
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When I am the vessel of coaching, I think
that it's quite an intense dialogue,

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I'm holding presence, attention, an
intention of kindness and love towards

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somebody whilst also listening to
them deeply and really seeing them.

279
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seeking to understand and help them to
understand what's happening for them.

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When I leave the space, and the way that
I would do this is that typically we

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will spend 10 or 15 minutes in one part
of the gallery, usually sitting down, to

282
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get to what would be a typical coaching
session intention or question So I'd

283
00:19:05,136 --> 00:19:09,096
say one sentence, one question, that
kind of thing, we get there together.

284
00:19:09,996 --> 00:19:13,066
And I leave the gallery, if it's
raining, which it is typically in

285
00:19:13,066 --> 00:19:14,506
Manchester, I go in the gift shop.

286
00:19:14,606 --> 00:19:18,216
But sometimes I do go  and
stand outside for 10 15 minutes.

287
00:19:19,156 --> 00:19:25,596
My intention in that moment is to
release some of that intensity, almost.

288
00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:31,286
diffuse the essence of coaching into
the walls of the gallery so that

289
00:19:31,296 --> 00:19:36,123
there's so much more freedom for the
client in terms of their thinking,

290
00:19:36,123 --> 00:19:42,201
because they're not in an intense,
Scrutinized interpreted conversation.

291
00:19:42,211 --> 00:19:45,431
Like I often use that phrase for coaching
is like you're trying to help someone

292
00:19:45,431 --> 00:19:49,181
interpret what's going on for them and
make it simpler to understand  what

293
00:19:49,181 --> 00:19:52,661
their choices are, what they might want
to do about what's happening for them.

294
00:19:53,111 --> 00:19:58,931
Yeah, so the space becomes a really
spacious playground for the person

295
00:19:58,941 --> 00:20:04,421
to, and when I say to move around
in, sometimes people don't, sometimes

296
00:20:04,421 --> 00:20:08,636
people stay exactly where we had the
conversation and they don't move.

297
00:20:08,636 --> 00:20:12,156
And it's fascinating to me how
differently people respond in this

298
00:20:12,156 --> 00:20:16,646
space, but, the potential to move is
there, the choice to stay is a choice.

299
00:20:17,146 --> 00:20:22,106
So me leaving and allowing the whole
building to be the coach gives them

300
00:20:22,106 --> 00:20:27,606
freedom of Their visual sense is receiving
different stimulation than my face.

301
00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:31,596
So that can only be a good thing, I think,
in terms of helping them think through

302
00:20:31,646 --> 00:20:32,976
their challenge or their stuckness.

303
00:20:33,536 --> 00:20:36,766
Yeah, it's something we think
about in museum education as well,

304
00:20:36,776 --> 00:20:38,596
that the invisible facilitator.

305
00:20:38,636 --> 00:20:41,676
So you're with a group, you may be
with a group of people, whether it's

306
00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:45,996
a small group or a large group of
people, and, It's almost as though

307
00:20:46,106 --> 00:20:48,866
you're seamlessly guiding the process.

308
00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:54,066
You want to be able to make the process
participant centered, and you want

309
00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:57,966
to give as much agency to the people
who are in that group as possible,

310
00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:04,506
so that they can use the space for
whatever the goals of the session are.

311
00:21:05,066 --> 00:21:09,716
there's a really interesting point in
the book chapter when you talk about

312
00:21:09,776 --> 00:21:14,966
you're about to leave the client and
you can see that there's a group of

313
00:21:14,966 --> 00:21:18,286
school children that have entered the
gallery space where you've left them.

314
00:21:18,716 --> 00:21:21,037
And a moment flashes through your mind.

315
00:21:21,057 --> 00:21:24,797
You think, should I go back and, interact
with them, tell them to go somewhere else.

316
00:21:24,897 --> 00:21:27,277
Could you talk us through
your thinking at that point?

317
00:21:27,277 --> 00:21:28,557
I thought that was super interesting.

318
00:21:29,457 --> 00:21:29,807
Yeah.

319
00:21:29,857 --> 00:21:34,437
Obviously these are public spaces,
which means that they are not private.

320
00:21:34,467 --> 00:21:38,527
you're not there in isolation and
also you have no control whatsoever

321
00:21:38,727 --> 00:21:40,167
over who else is in the space.

322
00:21:40,717 --> 00:21:44,757
So it's something that, I spent a lot of
time thinking about different scenarios.

323
00:21:44,757 --> 00:21:48,827
And actually I found it more helpful
to just be responsive in the moment,

324
00:21:48,837 --> 00:21:52,067
to notice what was going on in
the space and to think about it.

325
00:21:52,067 --> 00:21:55,677
I guess the prior thoughtfulness
meant that I didn't panic at any

326
00:21:55,677 --> 00:22:00,117
point in any of these experimental
pilot sessions, if you like.

327
00:22:00,477 --> 00:22:04,377
But the instructions that I leave the
client with when we've finished our

328
00:22:04,407 --> 00:22:09,137
initial dialogue and I'm going to leave
the building, and leave them to it.

329
00:22:09,137 --> 00:22:12,567
And part of leaving, as well, is that
I think people behave differently

330
00:22:12,567 --> 00:22:15,587
when they think they're being watched
or they think they're being judged,

331
00:22:15,607 --> 00:22:19,257
now I need to be absolutely crystal
clear to the person, like if you.

332
00:22:19,952 --> 00:22:21,922
sit on your phone for the next 10 minutes.

333
00:22:21,932 --> 00:22:22,692
I wouldn't know.

334
00:22:23,082 --> 00:22:24,162
I hope that you don't.

335
00:22:24,192 --> 00:22:28,032
I hope that you do, use this time as it's
intended as part of the coaching process.

336
00:22:28,032 --> 00:22:31,502
But if you want to go and chat to that
bloke over there, or lie on the floor,

337
00:22:31,502 --> 00:22:34,487
or whatever you want to do is up to you.

338
00:22:34,527 --> 00:22:37,267
And if you choose to tell me what
you did, that's also up to you.

339
00:22:37,267 --> 00:22:40,207
I never ask, I never invite that
question of, right, so tell me what

340
00:22:40,207 --> 00:22:41,537
you've been doing while I've been gone.

341
00:22:42,397 --> 00:22:46,467
So there's a real handing over of
responsibility for the session to

342
00:22:46,467 --> 00:22:47,757
the client on what they want to do.

343
00:22:48,307 --> 00:22:52,387
And  the example that you referenced from
the chapter I usually start in one space

344
00:22:52,387 --> 00:22:59,017
and then walk the client to a second space
and the invitation there is, I'm going to

345
00:22:59,017 --> 00:23:02,797
leave you in this space, I'm going to meet
you back at the entrance to this space in

346
00:23:02,797 --> 00:23:07,157
15 minutes, but if you want to stay here
or go somewhere else that's up to you.

347
00:23:07,797 --> 00:23:12,287
And so I'd left this client in a room
and the thought process behind that

348
00:23:12,287 --> 00:23:18,537
bit is usually It was an adjacent space
to where we are that isn't too busy.

349
00:23:18,637 --> 00:23:22,567
there's no correlation between their
content and the space, and then this

350
00:23:22,617 --> 00:23:28,357
gaggle of very exuberant Schoolchildren as
I was walking down the corridor away from

351
00:23:28,397 --> 00:23:30,387
where I just left the client  were coming.

352
00:23:30,957 --> 00:23:35,327
And I did have a second of, 'Oh,
have I made it explicit enough that,

353
00:23:35,387 --> 00:23:37,847
you don't need to stay  in a space?

354
00:23:38,427 --> 00:23:42,117
And also some of my own stuff, which was
would be my worst nightmare if I was in

355
00:23:42,117 --> 00:23:44,657
that space now, and doing some reflection.

356
00:23:45,247 --> 00:23:46,727
I'd want to leave.

357
00:23:46,897 --> 00:23:50,827
I think I'd also had a bit of an incident,
with one of my previous clients in the

358
00:23:50,827 --> 00:23:55,667
gallery space where a school teacher
with some young school children came

359
00:23:55,667 --> 00:23:58,637
into the room where we were having our
initial conversation and was pretty

360
00:23:58,637 --> 00:24:02,577
much shouting down my ear at one point,
so we had to get up and relocate.

361
00:24:02,867 --> 00:24:06,157
So I think I was hyper conscious
of how disruptive this might be.

362
00:24:06,857 --> 00:24:12,167
Ultimately, my belief is that the coaching
belongs to the client, the session belongs

363
00:24:12,167 --> 00:24:18,497
to them, and that I was really secure
in my contracting with them around, you

364
00:24:18,497 --> 00:24:22,407
go where you want to go, you can stay
here, you can move around, you can do

365
00:24:22,407 --> 00:24:26,177
nothing, you can leave if you want, I mean
you'll see me outside, it's your space.

366
00:24:26,717 --> 00:24:29,677
So I stopped in my tracks
and just thought, actually,

367
00:24:29,727 --> 00:24:30,957
I've been really explicit.

368
00:24:31,447 --> 00:24:36,552
Also, who am I to say, maybe the sound
of 30, Excited, noisy children is a

369
00:24:36,552 --> 00:24:38,662
really good stimulus for some thinking.

370
00:24:38,672 --> 00:24:41,132
It turns out it wasn't, and they
left, they went somewhere else.

371
00:24:41,132 --> 00:24:43,102
But who am I to judge
that I wouldn't want that?

372
00:24:43,512 --> 00:24:48,232
I would find that too distracting and
disruptive, therefore I must rescue.

373
00:24:48,662 --> 00:24:53,352
Like, no, the person has complete
agency, and in that piece around the

374
00:24:53,352 --> 00:24:57,292
space as coach, part of the space is
noisy children in one of the rooms.

375
00:24:58,052 --> 00:25:02,477
You can choose whether you are
interested in what that might generate

376
00:25:02,477 --> 00:25:03,987
for you, or you can move away from it.

377
00:25:03,987 --> 00:25:07,767
And I'd be curious even about
the choice to move away.

378
00:25:07,807 --> 00:25:08,997
What does that tell you?

379
00:25:09,327 --> 00:25:13,277
Because it's not quite as simple, I don't
think, as, well, I needed a quieter space.

380
00:25:13,777 --> 00:25:17,207
I think that's part of it, but also, well,
all the decisions that you made in that

381
00:25:17,207 --> 00:25:21,117
10, 15 minutes when you were alone in the
space, and the space was serving as, you

382
00:25:21,367 --> 00:25:23,997
as a container for you, as coach for you.

383
00:25:24,697 --> 00:25:28,837
Those choices are as interesting to
me as the thoughts that they generate.

384
00:25:28,837 --> 00:25:35,157
So In your writing and also in in your
practice, you feel that there's something

385
00:25:35,177 --> 00:25:38,417
particularly unique about these spaces.

386
00:25:38,517 --> 00:25:42,877
What are some of the potentials for
using museum and gallery spaces as

387
00:25:42,907 --> 00:25:45,206
opposed to perhaps other public spaces?

388
00:25:46,457 --> 00:25:46,707
So

389
00:25:46,707 --> 00:25:51,347
I think that the objects are definitely
part of it for lots of the clients.

390
00:25:51,447 --> 00:25:56,117
They might land on a particular
painting or piece of work or

391
00:25:56,267 --> 00:25:59,487
artist who really, speaks to them.

392
00:26:00,347 --> 00:26:03,977
And obviously some exhibitions are
temporary, so this isn't always the

393
00:26:03,977 --> 00:26:11,337
case, but the idea that for some, for
a period of time, you can revisit that

394
00:26:11,377 --> 00:26:18,317
object or painting or space within the
gallery is a really important part of

395
00:26:18,317 --> 00:26:22,627
this, that again takes it outside of me
being the coach in that space that I've

396
00:26:22,627 --> 00:26:27,157
supported someone to do some thinking
and then an object or part of the space

397
00:26:27,157 --> 00:26:31,697
has furthered that thinking and the
person can then return to keep doing that

398
00:26:31,707 --> 00:26:33,727
thinking in that space if it's helpful.

399
00:26:34,277 --> 00:26:39,247
So to give an example, one of the spaces
that I left, I think I might mention

400
00:26:39,247 --> 00:26:42,927
this in the chapter, but one of the
spaces that I left somebody in was loads

401
00:26:42,927 --> 00:26:45,817
of kind of Dutch old masters paintings.

402
00:26:46,537 --> 00:26:50,477
And when I came back to meet them,
they were coming down from upstairs

403
00:26:50,477 --> 00:26:53,957
where there was a Derek Jarman
exhibition, which was a very different

404
00:26:54,047 --> 00:26:56,657
vibe, very different artwork.

405
00:26:56,687 --> 00:26:59,737
And there was lots of noise and
other things going on upstairs.

406
00:27:00,367 --> 00:27:04,302
And when I spoke to them about it, they
said, Oh, I've just felt like When in

407
00:27:04,302 --> 00:27:08,932
that first room, I was being really
judged by the eyes of the past, and I

408
00:27:08,932 --> 00:27:13,302
needed a fresh perspective, and they'd
gone upstairs and actually it was

409
00:27:13,352 --> 00:27:17,502
quite a simplistic painting, and they'd
done a sketch of it in their notebook.

410
00:27:17,562 --> 00:27:23,872
It was just lines with different colours,
and so they didn't necessarily need to

411
00:27:23,872 --> 00:27:28,137
revisit The objects, because they had
a picture of it in their mind's eye

412
00:27:28,137 --> 00:27:29,817
and they'd done a representation of it.

413
00:27:29,867 --> 00:27:34,447
But the fact that they could go back there
and definitely some people have returned

414
00:27:34,757 --> 00:27:38,367
to revisit some of these things that
have prompted new thinking for them to

415
00:27:38,367 --> 00:27:40,867
see What other potential is here for me?

416
00:27:40,867 --> 00:27:42,087
What else is going on?

417
00:27:42,087 --> 00:27:45,157
So the space isn't,
although it does change.

418
00:27:45,157 --> 00:27:47,707
And you could go one day
then go the following week.

419
00:27:47,747 --> 00:27:49,827
And actually the space
is completely different.

420
00:27:50,427 --> 00:27:51,297
But again.

421
00:27:51,992 --> 00:27:56,642
I think there's so much potential for
reflection in that around if you notice

422
00:27:57,112 --> 00:28:01,901
that there's sadness about something
being gone well like what was it that was

423
00:28:01,902 --> 00:28:06,592
there before that was really speaking to
you and that sense of loss is intriguing

424
00:28:06,972 --> 00:28:10,542
and also what's there in its place and
what response are you having to that and

425
00:28:10,542 --> 00:28:14,642
does that offer you something different
you know we're not always in control of

426
00:28:14,642 --> 00:28:18,687
everything that happens in our life so
the changeable Nature of the space is also

427
00:28:18,697 --> 00:28:23,097
something in parallel, like it's a really
interesting point of exploration, I think.

428
00:28:23,787 --> 00:28:28,497
And aside from The objects within the
space, the collections, the artworks,

429
00:28:28,497 --> 00:28:33,537
the things that we know can give
people insights on our programs that

430
00:28:33,617 --> 00:28:37,707
we facilitate as museum educators as
well, people making connections they

431
00:28:37,717 --> 00:28:42,517
hadn't even dreamed of with artworks,
spending a huge amount of time looking

432
00:28:42,517 --> 00:28:47,187
and discovering new details in artworks
that perhaps they thought they knew

433
00:28:47,187 --> 00:28:49,337
really well, all of this we know.

434
00:28:49,367 --> 00:28:51,197
But what about the building itself?

435
00:28:51,237 --> 00:28:57,922
What about Have people remarked to you
that the space itself was enlightening,

436
00:28:57,932 --> 00:29:05,072
that being in that environment was
conducive to new thoughts, new thinking?

437
00:29:05,422 --> 00:29:09,712
Yeah, there was a few people who,
some people were drawn to the

438
00:29:09,712 --> 00:29:13,652
opportunity because they are regular
art gallery and museum visitors, right?

439
00:29:13,652 --> 00:29:17,322
So it's part of something that they
already do and therefore it's a space

440
00:29:17,332 --> 00:29:19,812
where they feel really comfortable
and they're oh, well, I go there

441
00:29:19,812 --> 00:29:21,412
anyway, so I'm intrigued to see.

442
00:29:22,332 --> 00:29:26,092
There were other people who, like, one
person said to me, I haven't set foot

443
00:29:26,122 --> 00:29:28,301
in an art gallery in like 15 years.

444
00:29:28,982 --> 00:29:32,262
And they worked over the road from
the gallery that we were in, like

445
00:29:32,272 --> 00:29:36,502
literally walk, like two minutes
walking distance from the gallery.

446
00:29:37,062 --> 00:29:41,932
And I think their reflection as part
of their process was like, I don't

447
00:29:41,962 --> 00:29:48,592
know why I don't come here because
it's enabled me to be really calm.

448
00:29:49,712 --> 00:29:52,652
And The coaching process itself
and the coaching dialogue is

449
00:29:52,692 --> 00:29:55,252
facilitating part of that, sure.

450
00:29:55,902 --> 00:30:01,482
But the idea that they'd come feeling so
cluttered and overwhelmed with what was

451
00:30:01,482 --> 00:30:10,052
happening for them, and that just being
in a beautiful, building, surrounded

452
00:30:10,052 --> 00:30:15,252
by beautiful objects, and also the kind
of transience of other visitors coming

453
00:30:15,252 --> 00:30:19,472
in and out but not ever joining you,
like not necessarily sitting with you

454
00:30:19,472 --> 00:30:24,092
or conversing with you, that there's
a comfort factor of other people being

455
00:30:24,102 --> 00:30:26,432
around but doing their own thing.

456
00:30:27,042 --> 00:30:29,942
I think it's maybe what people are
trying to replicate in like shared

457
00:30:29,942 --> 00:30:34,482
workspaces I don't think it works in
that environment because we're all too

458
00:30:34,482 --> 00:30:39,202
busy on calls and, engaging with our own
very important admin and various other

459
00:30:39,622 --> 00:30:42,662
things in that space, whereas I think
in the gallery, the ambience of other

460
00:30:42,662 --> 00:30:44,752
people being around is really comforting.

461
00:30:45,537 --> 00:30:49,817
So you feel, or I'll speak for myself
rather than projecting this onto

462
00:30:49,947 --> 00:30:57,477
everybody, I feel less alone but solitary
in a gallery space when I visit on my own.

463
00:30:57,507 --> 00:31:01,507
Like it's very much a solo endeavor
but there is a comfort factor of other

464
00:31:01,507 --> 00:31:06,262
people being around and yeah, certainly
people spoke about I think it's easier

465
00:31:06,262 --> 00:31:09,542
for those who hadn't been in a gallery
space for a long time to connect with

466
00:31:09,542 --> 00:31:14,702
the space, those who, weren't typically
in those spaces, were more aware of what

467
00:31:14,712 --> 00:31:18,682
the space was giving to them, as well as
what the things within it were offering.

468
00:31:18,732 --> 00:31:25,262
Yeah, I think that idea of being
in a calm, relatively quiet, space,

469
00:31:25,322 --> 00:31:29,122
and it's like there's a muted
nature to how people are and how

470
00:31:29,122 --> 00:31:30,612
people are conversing in that space.

471
00:31:30,652 --> 00:31:34,402
Even in the cafe, like I notice in the
cafe the museum, there's a different

472
00:31:34,442 --> 00:31:39,312
energy, it's livelier, but it's still
not at the kind of crescendo of other

473
00:31:39,382 --> 00:31:42,592
cafes and places of meeting for people.

474
00:31:42,592 --> 00:31:48,772
I think there's a quality of calm and that
muted nature that I think really lends

475
00:31:48,772 --> 00:31:50,662
itself well to thinking and reflection.

476
00:31:51,222 --> 00:31:56,307
And bearing all of that in mind and you
mentioning there that, You'd had someone

477
00:31:56,307 --> 00:31:59,877
who worked opposite a gallery but hadn't
been in there for a number of years.

478
00:31:59,877 --> 00:32:04,387
I was wondering about some of the
ethical considerations that people

479
00:32:04,387 --> 00:32:08,827
should think about before taking
coaching practice into a museum space.

480
00:32:09,127 --> 00:32:13,147
we talk about quite often as museum
professionals the threshold fear that

481
00:32:13,147 --> 00:32:17,407
a lot of people have crossing over into
the space, into a museum, whether that

482
00:32:17,467 --> 00:32:22,857
might be a barrier for some to stifle
their creativity rather than open it

483
00:32:22,897 --> 00:32:24,997
up, and how you might work through that.

484
00:32:25,007 --> 00:32:28,592
What other considerations
do we need to think about?

485
00:32:29,542 --> 00:32:35,682
Yeah, something that felt really
important was that I met my clients

486
00:32:35,752 --> 00:32:41,612
outside and we walked into the space
together and, That wasn't necessarily,

487
00:32:41,612 --> 00:32:45,792
I wouldn't have known the terminology
or even really probably given much

488
00:32:45,792 --> 00:32:47,672
thought to that kind of threshold fear.

489
00:32:48,212 --> 00:32:51,252
But it did feel important  to
enter the space together.

490
00:32:51,672 --> 00:32:56,502
particularly because I want to
give the client full agency to use

491
00:32:56,502 --> 00:32:58,122
the space how they would like to.

492
00:32:58,172 --> 00:33:01,642
So I would always have one or two
spaces in mind that might be suitable

493
00:33:01,642 --> 00:33:06,507
where I thought, It's reasonably quiet,
there's a, there's somewhere to sit.

494
00:33:07,167 --> 00:33:11,797
But I would still invite the client as
part of that, do you want to just go into

495
00:33:11,797 --> 00:33:14,087
the first room and find somewhere to sit?

496
00:33:14,107 --> 00:33:15,777
Are you feeling drawn to going upstairs?

497
00:33:15,777 --> 00:33:17,927
Like where would you like
to start this conversation?

498
00:33:18,397 --> 00:33:22,487
And so I think there's something in there
about really firmly locating the space

499
00:33:22,507 --> 00:33:26,597
as belonging to the client and the agency
and choices belonging to the client from

500
00:33:27,387 --> 00:33:29,477
even before you set foot in the building,

501
00:33:29,677 --> 00:33:35,176
But, from that first step in itself,
right, we're going to go, I have some

502
00:33:35,176 --> 00:33:37,526
spaces that are probably suitable.

503
00:33:37,866 --> 00:33:38,746
I've got a couple in mind.

504
00:33:38,746 --> 00:33:40,806
I've probably been the day
before, the week before to

505
00:33:40,806 --> 00:33:42,396
scope out where we might go.

506
00:33:42,576 --> 00:33:45,426
And if we get disrupted, where
we might move to, like what's

507
00:33:45,596 --> 00:33:47,566
a secondary or third space.

508
00:33:48,106 --> 00:33:52,696
But that feels really important to allow
the clients to have ownership of where

509
00:33:52,696 --> 00:33:54,866
they go and how they are in the space.

510
00:33:55,546 --> 00:33:58,511
Obviously, as we've mentioned,
there's other people to consider.

511
00:33:58,531 --> 00:34:03,481
So there's a huge ethical consideration
if you're having a coaching or other kind

512
00:34:03,481 --> 00:34:09,391
of supportive conversation, there's a huge
piece to consider around confidentiality.

513
00:34:10,831 --> 00:34:17,801
And my view on that is that I contract
around that, that other people might

514
00:34:17,801 --> 00:34:21,921
be around, that they might be sitting
very near us or moving very near

515
00:34:21,921 --> 00:34:25,641
us, and therefore it's up to the
client, their kind of comfort factor.

516
00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:28,326
of what they want to share when.

517
00:34:28,836 --> 00:34:33,136
But however, as coach, there
is an unspoken power imbalance.

518
00:34:33,146 --> 00:34:36,996
Like I'm there as the professional
supporting the person, therefore

519
00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:38,636
I don't lose accountability.

520
00:34:38,656 --> 00:34:44,996
So even if the client was kind of
midstream, have they noticed that

521
00:34:45,006 --> 00:34:47,116
someone has sat behind them on the bench?

522
00:34:47,117 --> 00:34:49,847
Are they aware that there's people
around, like, because when we're in our

523
00:34:49,847 --> 00:34:51,777
own thoughts, we can get lost in them.

524
00:34:51,777 --> 00:34:54,567
So I still retain a
level of accountability.

525
00:34:54,567 --> 00:34:58,837
And so there are times where I've
had to check in or gently interrupt

526
00:34:58,867 --> 00:35:01,117
to say, 'I just want to check.

527
00:35:01,167 --> 00:35:03,167
We've got a few people have joined us.

528
00:35:03,197 --> 00:35:04,607
Are you happy to proceed here?

529
00:35:04,607 --> 00:35:06,487
Would you like to move
to a different space?

530
00:35:06,497 --> 00:35:07,827
Or do you want to just wait for a minute?'

531
00:35:07,907 --> 00:35:12,427
So almost that piece of yes, other
people are going to be around and

532
00:35:12,427 --> 00:35:17,162
yes, You can trust that the client
will choose when it doesn't feel okay.

533
00:35:17,682 --> 00:35:22,512
But I've had interruptions from other
people whilst I'm in conversation.

534
00:35:23,372 --> 00:35:27,072
And I think it would be easy to get into
a mindset of, well we're clearly having

535
00:35:27,102 --> 00:35:30,192
a private conversation, like why are
you leaning over me trying to take a

536
00:35:30,192 --> 00:35:33,072
photograph of the thing behind me when
there's a big space behind me where

537
00:35:33,072 --> 00:35:35,342
you could stand and not be in my face.

538
00:35:35,372 --> 00:35:39,722
However, we're in a public building and
other people are having conversations,

539
00:35:40,222 --> 00:35:44,722
so how would somebody else know this
is a confidential, like we're doing

540
00:35:44,722 --> 00:35:48,312
it in a public space, it's open to
everyone, so all of that stuff is

541
00:35:48,312 --> 00:35:55,192
really important, and I think working in
coaching full stop can surface emotions

542
00:35:55,202 --> 00:35:57,052
and it can surface our subconscious.

543
00:35:57,802 --> 00:36:05,322
Working with creative and arts based
stimulation can accelerate that process.

544
00:36:05,532 --> 00:36:07,602
So I've had coaching where.

545
00:36:09,007 --> 00:36:12,477
I've said something and I've
been caught by surprise by it.

546
00:36:12,487 --> 00:36:15,317
I didn't know that I was
holding that in my subconscious.

547
00:36:15,327 --> 00:36:19,797
So the coach had no chance whatsoever
of feeling prepared for the kind of

548
00:36:19,847 --> 00:36:22,927
acknowledgement that I made, which
actually was something that I then

549
00:36:23,047 --> 00:36:26,007
said, right, actually that feels
really important, but I think I need

550
00:36:26,007 --> 00:36:27,907
to take that to a therapeutic space.

551
00:36:27,907 --> 00:36:31,777
So working in this way, even without
all of the complexity of being in a

552
00:36:31,777 --> 00:36:37,767
public space, can accelerate or really
surface things that people don't

553
00:36:37,767 --> 00:36:40,867
know they're holding, or maybe don't
want to surface, like our emotional

554
00:36:40,867 --> 00:36:42,917
experience can sometimes be suppressed.

555
00:36:42,967 --> 00:36:46,107
There's that piece as well, which
is so important to contract.

556
00:36:46,167 --> 00:36:49,517
I always say in any of my
coaching coaching sessions,

557
00:36:50,567 --> 00:36:52,417
emotions are incredibly welcome.

558
00:36:52,417 --> 00:36:53,467
They're data for us.

559
00:36:53,487 --> 00:36:55,567
They're telling us that
something is important.

560
00:36:56,587 --> 00:37:01,017
But when an emotion, a strong emotion
arises, and it might be upset and

561
00:37:01,017 --> 00:37:04,097
crying, it could be anger, it could
be intense joy, it could be anything.

562
00:37:05,197 --> 00:37:08,777
It's my job to check in with the
client, like, do you want to stay

563
00:37:08,777 --> 00:37:10,597
in this emotion and explore it?

564
00:37:10,997 --> 00:37:16,217
Do you want to just be in this emotion for
a couple of minutes in silence and just be

565
00:37:16,217 --> 00:37:18,457
in it and then we can see where you are?

566
00:37:18,627 --> 00:37:20,617
Do you want to stop
the session completely?

567
00:37:20,627 --> 00:37:24,567
And that was always an option for,
well, for any coaching client to be

568
00:37:24,577 --> 00:37:28,537
fair, but in these gallery sessions, it
was always an option that we stopped.

569
00:37:28,587 --> 00:37:32,047
We could get five minutes in and be like,
actually, I feel really uncomfortable.

570
00:37:32,557 --> 00:37:35,517
There's too many people around, Like,
it would be just as valid for me to

571
00:37:35,517 --> 00:37:39,737
know, actually, some people really
cannot work in this space in this

572
00:37:39,737 --> 00:37:44,187
way, or it's too exposing, they're too
vulnerable, things are surfacing for them.

573
00:37:44,297 --> 00:37:48,317
Almost the purpose of doing that has
to be for the client's benefit, and

574
00:37:48,317 --> 00:37:51,527
the moment that it stops being for
the client's benefit, it finishes.

575
00:37:51,537 --> 00:37:56,867
I think there's all of those bits that are
wrapped up in working in a public space,

576
00:37:56,867 --> 00:38:02,357
but also one that has so much creative
stimulus, because That is a gateway.

577
00:38:02,977 --> 00:38:06,677
It's like an express train sometimes,
not for everybody, but it can be.

578
00:38:06,677 --> 00:38:09,157
And that potential, again, is
the thing that we need to be

579
00:38:09,157 --> 00:38:10,727
thoughtful about and prepared for.

580
00:38:11,577 --> 00:38:11,797
Yeah.

581
00:38:11,797 --> 00:38:14,267
And I think preparedness
is so important here.

582
00:38:14,267 --> 00:38:16,047
Preparedness on the part of the coach.

583
00:38:16,047 --> 00:38:20,847
And yes, as you say, trying to scope
out the space, but preparing the coachee

584
00:38:21,157 --> 00:38:25,067
so that they know what to expect and
that they're able to have that agency.

585
00:38:25,527 --> 00:38:28,987
But also thinking about perhaps
when this might be introduced

586
00:38:29,007 --> 00:38:32,047
into a coaching relationship and
when that might be appropriate,

587
00:38:32,087 --> 00:38:34,877
it's interesting because people
that I've spoken to about

588
00:38:34,877 --> 00:38:36,377
this, tend to hold that view.

589
00:38:37,007 --> 00:38:42,267
All of the people that I worked with
in galleries in order to understand the

590
00:38:42,267 --> 00:38:46,307
potential and the edge of that process
and to write my chapter in the case

591
00:38:46,307 --> 00:38:49,147
study were one off coaching sessions.

592
00:38:49,157 --> 00:38:54,357
So I met them once for the first time
to work together in a gallery space.

593
00:38:54,687 --> 00:38:59,407
I do think it's a little different
if it's an enduring relationship,

594
00:38:59,437 --> 00:39:00,767
coaching relationship with a client.

595
00:39:00,767 --> 00:39:05,127
There's nothing to suggest that you
couldn't or shouldn't do your first

596
00:39:05,127 --> 00:39:09,437
session of an enduring relationship
in a gallery, but there is some really

597
00:39:09,437 --> 00:39:12,847
explicit upfront contracting around
that would be needed in my view.

598
00:39:12,907 --> 00:39:16,627
Everyone who signed up to come and
have a coaching session with me in

599
00:39:16,627 --> 00:39:18,247
an art gallery signed up to that.

600
00:39:18,867 --> 00:39:23,007
experience that I didn't say, would
you like to have some coaching with me?

601
00:39:23,007 --> 00:39:25,147
And then it was, surprise
we're in the Whitworth.

602
00:39:25,797 --> 00:39:28,087
It was, I'm interested in these spaces.

603
00:39:28,217 --> 00:39:30,007
It's, this is the exchange.

604
00:39:30,287 --> 00:39:34,437
90 minutes of my time for free for
you to come with something real.

605
00:39:34,697 --> 00:39:39,117
We held an exploration call online
before we met at the gallery space.

606
00:39:40,867 --> 00:39:44,287
There was time to withdraw between
that exploration call and us

607
00:39:44,307 --> 00:39:48,037
meeting up, and then there was an
explicit part of the contracting

608
00:39:48,037 --> 00:39:50,067
happened in person in the space.

609
00:39:50,077 --> 00:39:51,617
It was quite contained.

610
00:39:51,617 --> 00:39:54,937
It was, as advertised, if you
like, that's what people signed

611
00:39:54,947 --> 00:39:56,617
up to do and then came and did it.

612
00:39:57,007 --> 00:40:01,437
When it's within a relationship,
I think it's the question has to

613
00:40:01,437 --> 00:40:05,267
be, always with anything that we
introduce, like, who is this for?

614
00:40:06,157 --> 00:40:08,617
And I was really explicit
in that opportunity with the

615
00:40:08,617 --> 00:40:12,372
people who came to help me do my
thinking and write my chapter.

616
00:40:12,922 --> 00:40:17,282
I'm interested in this, so I'd
really welcome people that can

617
00:40:17,282 --> 00:40:18,582
come and help me explore it.

618
00:40:19,102 --> 00:40:22,802
If I was taking a client who I'm
working with over a longer period

619
00:40:22,802 --> 00:40:27,632
of time to a gallery, you It cannot
be because I think, 'oh, I'd really

620
00:40:27,632 --> 00:40:29,292
like to take you to an art gallery'.

621
00:40:29,302 --> 00:40:33,532
It's because I may be thinking, right,
we meet in the same space or you're

622
00:40:33,742 --> 00:40:39,502
in your house having this coaching and
there is a sense of stuckness that maybe

623
00:40:39,532 --> 00:40:44,202
a different perspective might offer,
whether that is a Outdoors, whether

624
00:40:44,202 --> 00:40:48,132
it's let's turn our cameras off and
just have audio, whether it's let's go

625
00:40:48,182 --> 00:40:54,032
to a gallery, whatever it might be it's
because there's a sense of actually we're

626
00:40:54,332 --> 00:40:58,962
getting stuck, we're in Groundhog Day,
we're feeling a bit in the quicksand, if

627
00:40:58,962 --> 00:41:03,012
you like, so let's change something and
the environment is one of those things

628
00:41:03,012 --> 00:41:07,652
that we might change and therefore within
that exploration a gallery might be the

629
00:41:07,652 --> 00:41:09,842
most appropriate space for that person.

630
00:41:10,172 --> 00:41:13,072
And there's all sorts of factors,
like if you live near to them

631
00:41:14,092 --> 00:41:17,372
and there's a gallery and they've
expressed an interest in arts and

632
00:41:17,372 --> 00:41:18,952
creativity, great, take them there.

633
00:41:20,472 --> 00:41:24,547
It should never be because you as
the coach think, oh, Unless you're

634
00:41:24,547 --> 00:41:27,777
explicitly contracting, I'm interested
in this, can you help me understand it?

635
00:41:28,137 --> 00:41:32,427
Like, in our relationships, it should
always be, I think this might help you.

636
00:41:32,967 --> 00:41:35,987
I think this is in service of you
and the work that you're doing.

637
00:41:36,017 --> 00:41:40,737
It's not, and I'd like a day out to go
and have a look at some nice paintings.

638
00:41:40,797 --> 00:41:42,167
You can do that on your own time.

639
00:41:42,522 --> 00:41:43,312
Absolutely.

640
00:41:43,372 --> 00:41:48,412
And there are so many factors to
really take into consideration here,

641
00:41:48,452 --> 00:41:53,662
but at the same time, I really don't
feel you can plan for everything.

642
00:41:54,182 --> 00:41:57,712
And this is the same in our work
in museum education as well.

643
00:41:59,197 --> 00:42:05,637
go into the museum with the best plans in
mind and an idea of who our participants

644
00:42:05,637 --> 00:42:08,657
are and who we're going to be meeting and
what we're going to be talking about and

645
00:42:08,657 --> 00:42:14,347
things crop up so we can take all of this
into account but we also must be able

646
00:42:14,347 --> 00:42:18,437
to think on our feet fast when things
do arise that are out of the ordinary

647
00:42:18,437 --> 00:42:19,997
because we're in a public space, right?

648
00:42:19,997 --> 00:42:20,287
Yeah,

649
00:42:20,327 --> 00:42:20,997
absolutely.

650
00:42:21,047 --> 00:42:22,917
I think that's the piece with this.

651
00:42:22,917 --> 00:42:26,217
If you're thinking about whether it's
formalized coaching or whether it's

652
00:42:26,217 --> 00:42:31,507
actually just, can I invite a colleague,
a friend appear into a reflective

653
00:42:31,507 --> 00:42:35,197
dialogue where we're going to use
the space as part of that process.

654
00:42:35,777 --> 00:42:41,597
The preparation and thoughtfulness behind
that is always, is this person and am

655
00:42:41,597 --> 00:42:45,117
I safe to have this conversation here?

656
00:42:45,397 --> 00:42:49,762
And that is, physical, but also
emotional, spiritual safety.

657
00:42:49,782 --> 00:42:55,622
There's different levels of things that,
even in our own home, we can be disrupted.

658
00:42:56,092 --> 00:42:59,092
We can have the postman arriving when
we're in the middle of a session, or

659
00:42:59,122 --> 00:43:01,932
the cats, like my cats are actually,
I don't know why I'm saying this out

660
00:43:01,932 --> 00:43:04,452
loud, because they'll probably come
and be really rambunctious now, but

661
00:43:04,902 --> 00:43:07,652
they're usually floating around in
the background and, sometimes hanging

662
00:43:07,652 --> 00:43:09,002
off things on the wall behind me.

663
00:43:09,002 --> 00:43:13,162
There's interruptions and kind of other
life existing around us wherever we

664
00:43:13,162 --> 00:43:18,222
are, even in a more kind of contained
environment, but absolutely the potential

665
00:43:18,222 --> 00:43:24,672
of these spaces is huge, but the cost,
the risk potential is also bigger, and

666
00:43:24,672 --> 00:43:30,102
we need to be really aware, like there's
a heightened level of awareness of the

667
00:43:30,102 --> 00:43:34,922
surroundings, of the potential of other
people and what's going on in the space,

668
00:43:35,342 --> 00:43:39,602
that, we would maybe like to give 100
percent of our focus to the client.

669
00:43:39,622 --> 00:43:42,282
I don't know if that's entirely
possible in a public building.

670
00:43:42,282 --> 00:43:45,822
I think you have to have maybe
80 percent focus on the client.

671
00:43:46,217 --> 00:43:51,417
20 percent peripheral and
unexpected, like ready to evolve.

672
00:43:51,457 --> 00:43:57,037
And that almost big red stop button
has to almost be, metaphorically

673
00:43:57,707 --> 00:43:59,137
between you at all times.

674
00:43:59,217 --> 00:44:01,917
And that the conversation, with
no questions asked, that the

675
00:44:01,917 --> 00:44:05,167
conversation can just stop if it
needs to be, if it's not safe.

676
00:44:05,977 --> 00:44:11,797
And you've been investigating this in your
PhD research on arts based supervision.

677
00:44:11,807 --> 00:44:16,597
So tell me How what differences
you observe between working with

678
00:44:16,647 --> 00:44:21,077
coaching clients and working
with coaches, practitioners in

679
00:44:21,077 --> 00:44:22,757
supervision in these spaces?

680
00:44:22,777 --> 00:44:24,057
What are the differences?

681
00:44:25,962 --> 00:44:27,272
Yeah, great question.

682
00:44:27,332 --> 00:44:33,301
And if I just talk more broadly, both
coaching and supervision, coaches are In

683
00:44:33,301 --> 00:44:39,061
theory, already reflective practitioners,
it's part of their training, it's part

684
00:44:39,081 --> 00:44:41,201
of their way of being in their work.

685
00:44:41,791 --> 00:44:46,741
And I often talk to coaching clients
about what I'm trying to do over time

686
00:44:46,751 --> 00:44:52,381
is to build their reflective capacity,
to build their reflective muscle to a

687
00:44:52,381 --> 00:44:56,771
point where they no longer need me to
be a partner in that reflection, like

688
00:44:56,771 --> 00:44:58,851
they're strengthening their own process.

689
00:45:00,041 --> 00:45:06,761
And so coaches arrive with that muscle
already quite strong most of the time.

690
00:45:08,621 --> 00:45:14,181
The downside of that actually is
that In my experience can be that

691
00:45:14,191 --> 00:45:22,061
the coach is less aware of the risk
of emotion or harm coming to them

692
00:45:22,491 --> 00:45:30,166
because their capacity to take on
information and knowing and stimulus

693
00:45:30,176 --> 00:45:32,276
from their surroundings is heightened.

694
00:45:32,286 --> 00:45:38,196
So the impact of being in the space,
thinking of one person in particular who

695
00:45:38,286 --> 00:45:42,676
came to a coaching session, but wasn't
an experienced coach, had an incredibly

696
00:45:42,676 --> 00:45:45,946
strong, almost immediate reaction
to being in the space and was quite

697
00:45:45,956 --> 00:45:48,776
emotional throughout our conversation.

698
00:45:49,476 --> 00:45:53,136
The positive side of that, if you
like that, because they're used to

699
00:45:53,156 --> 00:45:56,831
being in their emotion and they're
used to Just being in, in that kind

700
00:45:56,831 --> 00:46:01,981
of heightened sense of reflection,
they didn't want to, or feel the

701
00:46:01,981 --> 00:46:03,811
need to shut down the conversation.

702
00:46:03,841 --> 00:46:08,331
They were able to contain, they
were emotional and upset and

703
00:46:08,331 --> 00:46:12,631
crying actually at one point in
the space, but That's an emotional

704
00:46:12,641 --> 00:46:14,581
space that they've been in before.

705
00:46:14,671 --> 00:46:19,131
They've accessed that level
of reflective practice before.

706
00:46:19,491 --> 00:46:22,361
And so being in a public
environment, we're all different.

707
00:46:22,371 --> 00:46:25,991
They felt comfortable to be a bit
tear stained and a bit snotty.

708
00:46:26,776 --> 00:46:28,106
with other people around them.

709
00:46:28,486 --> 00:46:32,136
And so they were able to almost
acknowledge that emotion had risen

710
00:46:32,136 --> 00:46:37,706
and move past it to be able to do some
really transformative thinking about

711
00:46:37,796 --> 00:46:39,616
what, what is going on for me there.

712
00:46:39,976 --> 00:46:44,356
Whereas when I was working with non
coaches in the space, if emotions surface,

713
00:46:45,621 --> 00:46:50,511
And again, it's an individual experience,
but I would say typically that comes with

714
00:46:50,511 --> 00:46:54,991
a lot more shame around it or a lot more
embarrassment of like, Oh my God, I can't

715
00:46:54,991 --> 00:46:59,531
believe that I'm having this really strong
reaction and a desire to suppress it.

716
00:46:59,541 --> 00:47:04,951
So the role of the coach is to
really help that person to both

717
00:47:05,001 --> 00:47:08,341
embrace the emotion, but also make a
decision about whether we stay there.

718
00:47:08,341 --> 00:47:15,131
And I think coaches in coaching and
supervision are used to supporting

719
00:47:15,201 --> 00:47:18,271
other people in that way and
they're used to doing that level

720
00:47:18,271 --> 00:47:20,111
of reflection for themselves but

721
00:47:20,141 --> 00:47:23,971
I think non coaches are better at
acknowledging I feel really vulnerable

722
00:47:24,521 --> 00:47:28,291
and withdrawing slightly and that feels
a bit safer than I'm just here, I'm going

723
00:47:28,291 --> 00:47:33,631
to let it all out and abandon all sense of
convention of what's going on around me.

724
00:47:33,691 --> 00:47:37,396
So yeah, Not everyone gets emotional, but
I would say that feels like the biggest

725
00:47:37,396 --> 00:47:41,946
distinction for me between coaches and
non coaches who are using this space.

726
00:47:42,006 --> 00:47:47,296
I ran a workshop for some coaches with
EMCC UK at Manchester Art Gallery, and

727
00:47:47,326 --> 00:47:52,866
again, very quickly, lots of them had
really strong emotional responses to

728
00:47:53,066 --> 00:47:54,646
things in the building and in the space.

729
00:47:54,656 --> 00:47:59,066
So the connection is probably a little
quicker because we're open to it, we're

730
00:47:59,096 --> 00:48:04,146
used to trying to reflect and think things
through it at depth, but the risk is

731
00:48:04,146 --> 00:48:06,206
therefore a bit increased I would say.

732
00:48:07,416 --> 00:48:08,496
That's so interesting.

733
00:48:08,796 --> 00:48:11,026
And where is your
research taking you next?

734
00:48:11,826 --> 00:48:16,916
Yeah, my, my PhD research is really
interested in arts based approaches in

735
00:48:16,916 --> 00:48:22,829
coaching supervision and how they might
influence or impact our professional

736
00:48:22,829 --> 00:48:26,209
development and sense of professional
identity as coach practitioners.

737
00:48:26,749 --> 00:48:31,009
The research that I did before I was
experimenting in galleries was using

738
00:48:31,009 --> 00:48:35,999
music and mark making and the kind
of overall trend, if you like, of my

739
00:48:35,999 --> 00:48:41,259
research is, almost having a creative
or arts based interruption in dialogue.

740
00:48:41,259 --> 00:48:45,789
So the format that I've given an
overview here and talked to in the

741
00:48:45,819 --> 00:48:51,699
chapter of dialogue, creative pause,
if you like, back to dialogue,

742
00:48:52,009 --> 00:48:55,079
is a pervasive thing in my work.

743
00:48:55,079 --> 00:49:01,489
I'm interested in The power of almost
a short burst of creativity or arts to

744
00:49:01,529 --> 00:49:06,239
interrupt our cognitive processing and get
us into more of a felt embodied spiritual

745
00:49:06,249 --> 00:49:10,159
sense of what's going on for me, whatever
other knowledge and wisdom is available

746
00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:12,419
to us outside of our overthinking brains.

747
00:49:13,069 --> 00:49:16,789
So the research that I'm going to be
doing, I'm just doing a systematic

748
00:49:16,789 --> 00:49:20,479
review to understand what do we know
about the links between supervision and

749
00:49:20,479 --> 00:49:25,839
development and identity so that I can
be really clear what's the difference

750
00:49:25,859 --> 00:49:29,399
with the, that the art space bit makes,
because otherwise it's you could say

751
00:49:29,399 --> 00:49:32,219
well this might happen anyway without
the art space bit, how do you know?

752
00:49:32,219 --> 00:49:35,149
So yeah, I'm laying the
groundwork, I use the analogy, I'm

753
00:49:35,149 --> 00:49:37,229
preparing the soil at the moment.

754
00:49:38,054 --> 00:49:41,004
And then my studies, I'm going to
do two studies, and one will be

755
00:49:41,004 --> 00:49:45,254
group supervision most likely, I'm
just finalizing the design using

756
00:49:45,264 --> 00:49:47,234
different arts based interventions.

757
00:49:47,234 --> 00:49:51,844
So I'm quite interested in an
extension of the work in galleries,

758
00:49:51,844 --> 00:49:54,874
of actually taking that out to
the built environment as a whole.

759
00:49:55,324 --> 00:49:58,844
In a group setting, unless we're meeting
in person, that will most likely mean

760
00:49:58,844 --> 00:50:03,844
field recording, photography, fragments
or aspects of the built environment around

761
00:50:03,854 --> 00:50:07,804
people that they can capture and bring
as a kind of part of their reflection.

762
00:50:08,274 --> 00:50:12,834
But I'm also really interested in
introducing portraiture, so could we

763
00:50:12,944 --> 00:50:16,954
If someone is one of the coaches in the
group is bringing a client to life and

764
00:50:16,954 --> 00:50:20,164
talking about them as a bit of a case
study that they want to think about,

765
00:50:20,574 --> 00:50:24,244
could the other members of the group try
and draw a portrait of this client as

766
00:50:24,244 --> 00:50:28,164
they're hearing them being described and
would that offer us a different lens?

767
00:50:28,694 --> 00:50:29,564
Are they sad?

768
00:50:29,744 --> 00:50:31,224
Are they happy?

769
00:50:31,234 --> 00:50:32,334
Have they got a giant head?

770
00:50:32,424 --> 00:50:34,924
Like, what is it that,
however we've drawn them?

771
00:50:34,974 --> 00:50:38,564
And I'm also doing a course at
the moment on deep listening.

772
00:50:38,574 --> 00:50:42,769
So kind of Pauline Oliveros the
pioneer in that space, but I'm also

773
00:50:42,949 --> 00:50:46,969
really interested in the central
concept of that is to listen to

774
00:50:46,969 --> 00:50:49,669
everything all the time, all at once.

775
00:50:50,209 --> 00:50:54,009
So I'm really interested in using
sound I'd love to be a musician,

776
00:50:54,009 --> 00:50:58,359
but I don't possess musical
ability so I live vicariously.

777
00:50:58,399 --> 00:51:01,109
I love music, it's a really
big influence in my life.

778
00:51:01,549 --> 00:51:05,069
And I'm extending that out into
sound, because in the same way that

779
00:51:05,069 --> 00:51:08,909
saying, draw something to someone who
thinks they can't draw is a barrier.

780
00:51:09,229 --> 00:51:12,879
Music feels like, the zenith,
like the end goal of creating

781
00:51:12,879 --> 00:51:14,739
sound, like we can all make sound.

782
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:17,719
In some way, whether it's vocal,
whether it's drumming on the desk,

783
00:51:17,729 --> 00:51:21,669
whether it's, recording sounds
from elsewhere and replaying them.

784
00:51:21,669 --> 00:51:24,739
So I think that sound is a
space that I'm really drawn

785
00:51:24,769 --> 00:51:26,099
to and would like to bring in.

786
00:51:26,109 --> 00:51:30,059
So yeah, there's some
physical and environmental

787
00:51:30,149 --> 00:51:31,459
things I'd like to introduce.

788
00:51:31,459 --> 00:51:35,839
And then there's some other more, more
traditional arts based playing around that

789
00:51:35,849 --> 00:51:42,059
I want to do, but the end goal really is
to support people to understand that these

790
00:51:42,139 --> 00:51:49,009
approaches are accessible to everyone,
but that they're also powerful, and

791
00:51:49,059 --> 00:51:52,769
therefore they might not be appropriate
for everyone's practice, whether that's

792
00:51:52,769 --> 00:51:57,709
because we're brand new to coaching,
and actually for me This is a mature,

793
00:51:57,749 --> 00:52:01,329
advanced practice because of all of the
complexity that sits with it, because of

794
00:52:01,359 --> 00:52:07,969
the risk of speeding up that surfacing
process, and because of all of the ethical

795
00:52:07,969 --> 00:52:10,159
implications that kind of sit around it.

796
00:52:10,409 --> 00:52:13,889
But that doesn't mean that you
can't ever use them in your work

797
00:52:13,889 --> 00:52:16,209
or that you shouldn't because
you're not a creative person.

798
00:52:16,209 --> 00:52:21,749
So I'm trying to find, the edges of what's
possible and then maybe some people will

799
00:52:21,749 --> 00:52:25,329
be working at the edges and other people
might use a more diluted version of

800
00:52:25,329 --> 00:52:27,409
some of this thinking in their own work.

801
00:52:27,429 --> 00:52:29,829
But I think there is a barrier for people.

802
00:52:30,609 --> 00:52:33,619
There is a bit of a rhetoric of you're
either a creative coach or you're not.

803
00:52:34,039 --> 00:52:36,679
And for me, it's well, it's innate
in all of us to some extent.

804
00:52:36,689 --> 00:52:41,119
So why not find what's possible
here, evidence it, and then allow

805
00:52:41,129 --> 00:52:44,624
people to make their own, conclusion
about what that looks like for them

806
00:52:44,804 --> 00:52:46,504
if it enters their practice at all.

807
00:52:47,374 --> 00:52:50,194
Such important work you're doing
to add to the conversation,

808
00:52:50,204 --> 00:52:51,594
add to the research on this.

809
00:52:51,594 --> 00:52:54,054
There's not a lot out there,
as you say, that it's been

810
00:52:54,054 --> 00:52:55,754
very limited in scope to date.

811
00:52:55,804 --> 00:52:57,874
We need to wrap up our conversation.

812
00:52:58,184 --> 00:53:00,944
How can people find out more
about you and your work?

813
00:53:02,739 --> 00:53:02,959
So

814
00:53:03,209 --> 00:53:05,789
the place where I am
most active is LinkedIn.

815
00:53:06,319 --> 00:53:08,199
And yeah, I can share the link
with you for the show notes.

816
00:53:09,939 --> 00:53:14,259
And my website as well, you can find my
contact details and email me from there.

817
00:53:14,879 --> 00:53:18,119
But yeah, LinkedIn is unfortunately
the place where you will most

818
00:53:18,169 --> 00:53:21,769
often find me posting about the
things that I'm doing and bits of

819
00:53:21,769 --> 00:53:23,279
research that I'm interested in.

820
00:53:23,309 --> 00:53:26,389
And also, who knows, maybe opportunities
to come and have some coaching with

821
00:53:26,389 --> 00:53:30,789
me in a different space or in a
different modality depending on where

822
00:53:30,789 --> 00:53:32,889
I land up in my own experiments.

823
00:53:33,569 --> 00:53:33,989
Brilliant.

824
00:53:33,989 --> 00:53:36,279
Thank you so much for
coming to talk to me today.

825
00:53:36,349 --> 00:53:37,549
Beth, it's been a pleasure.

826
00:53:38,309 --> 00:53:39,089
Thank you so much.

827
00:53:39,089 --> 00:53:40,249
It's been gorgeous talking to you.

828
00:53:42,479 --> 00:53:46,209
So a huge thank you to Beth for
joining me on the podcast today.

829
00:53:46,739 --> 00:53:50,819
Be sure to check out the show notes
to find out more about her work.

830
00:53:51,359 --> 00:53:56,049
If you've enjoyed this episode, or
if any episode in our back catalogue

831
00:53:56,049 --> 00:54:00,489
has resonated with you, please
consider supporting The Art Engager.

832
00:54:01,079 --> 00:54:05,249
You can now join us on Patreon
with a simple monthly subscription.

833
00:54:05,489 --> 00:54:07,199
Thank you to all our new supporters.

834
00:54:07,529 --> 00:54:09,429
Your generosity makes a difference.

835
00:54:10,259 --> 00:54:14,259
And finally, don't forget to
visit my website to learn more

836
00:54:14,319 --> 00:54:15,839
about The Art Engager book.

837
00:54:15,899 --> 00:54:18,659
Available now wherever books are sold.

838
00:54:19,099 --> 00:54:20,439
That's it for this episode.

839
00:54:20,799 --> 00:54:22,619
Thank you so much for tuning in.

840
00:54:22,829 --> 00:54:24,179
I'll see you next time.