This is Apologetics Live to answer your.

Questions, your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

We are live Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible.

If you have a difficult question, you can come in because here at Apologex Live, we can answer any question that you have about God in the Bible.

And if you doubt that, well, the simple thing to do is go to apologeticslive.com, scroll down to the duck icon, join the discussion and ask your most difficult question.

Because I can guarantee you that I can answer any question question you have about God in the Bible.

Just remember one thing I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity.

I'm your host, Andrew Rapoport, and we are here tonight.

We are going to talk about the topic of evangelism.

If those who listen regularly to my Rap Report podcast, you already will know my guest, George, Pastor George is with the a fellow podcaster at the Christian podcast community of which this podcast becomes is a member.

The the live stream becomes a podcast and that is the Gospel Exchange podcast.

We're going to talk evangelism.

One of my favorite subjects, folks, are recognizing.

Those regulars are recognizing.

Hey, wait a minute.

Where is Andrew?

I'm at a secret, undisclosed location known as my daughter's house.

And so I'm here with my grandkids where.

But we did not want to miss a show for you folks in the audience.

So even though I am missing the grandkids playing upstairs with my beautiful bride, I'm down here with you guys in the basement where we had to turn off the heater because it was making too much noise.

So if I start shivering, it's not because of the cold plunge, because that's home.

I have to wait till next week to get back in my cold plunge.

And yes, for those who are new, I miss my cold plunge until I have to get in it and then I hate the cold plunge.

But what I want to do, let me bring in Pastor George so he could come in with some of the discussion.

I wanted to start off.

He knows I'm going to start off with this, but Pastor George, welcome to Apologex Live.

Just quickly if you could introduce yourself before we get to the first topic.

Yep.

My name is George and I'm a pastor here in the Phoenix area.

My family immigrated from the Middle east in 1994.

I was born overseas and now my parents came here after the second Gulf War because of the second Gulf War and rode a bus to a church.

At some point when we were here in Phoenix and heard the gospel at that church, came to Christ baptized and pastor of the church said, you should think about ministry.

So, so started heading towards college and seminary, finished that up.

We went to East Africa, planted a church there among the South Sudanese.

I speak Arabic and another Middle Eastern language fluently.

And so after a year there, the church was planted and growing.

We came back for health reasons and then God opened up opportunity here in the valley.

Pastor for three years at a church in North Phoenix and then a church south of Phoenix called me to be their senior pastor.

During that time, Jeff called me the founder, author of the Exchange and the exchange message.

Exchangemessage.org It's a ministry go around, train churches on how to give their faith in a relational way and sit down with people and present Jesus Christ as a person.

I had been trained in that way when I was 18 years old.

That's when I first met Jeff.

And so years later he asked if I would partner with him.

Jump on board.

We started the Gospel Talks podcast, met Andrew and he's just been, I mean, Andrew, you've been awesome.

Huge encouragement.

Podcast community is amazing and just so thankful for to the Lord for the opportunity.

Yeah.

So I gotta ask because I was curious when you were on my Rap Report podcast, so what was your given name?

Because you told me then that George wasn't your first name.

It really made me, I meant to ask you that on that show.

So now I'll ask you now.

And those who didn't listen to the Rap Report, well, you got to go back and listen to that one.

But yeah, so my Middle Eastern name was Hashem.

Okay.

Yeah.

So my mom was studying for the citizenship test.

We got our green cards in Greece, came over, she was studying for the citizenship.

She's like, you know, Hashem is a tough one out here.

They're not going to know how to pronounce that.

She was studying about George Washington and admired him a lot and said let's call him George.

And so that's kind of how that came about.

Yeah, my brother in law wanted to take the name Joseph, but when he came over but he I guess didn't know how it was spelled.

So he has a very unique first name because he just, it was just spelled J O S E. When he came over.

I guess he English wasn't his first language, so.

So he's just Joe's.

That's good, that's good.

Yeah.

So Andrew from down Under Says you'll all get a good Friday.

And because he is having a good Friday right now.

So yeah, he is from down under, their day ahead.

So he is already on Friday.

We are not here in America.

I, I have to admit, George, I told you I was going to start the show with this.

So you're already prepped.

I need to ask the forgiveness of the audience.

I did a like a major miss last week.

So last week we did an open Q and A and I had three people contact me about a specific issue.

I had it all queued up like, so that I could address it on the very beginning of last week's show.

And it wasn't until I went to do the show notes at the end that I went, oh, I totally missed it.

So I am sorry, but I do want to take a couple of minutes to address a.

What something that happened on.

Well, started on Twitter and then had gone from there to quite broadly.

And so let me, for those who may have seen, a friend of mine, Trevor Sheets, who works at Living Waters, that's how I got to know him.

I've done a lot of open air evangelism with him.

A lot of evangelism, not just open air with him.

We have gotten together.

He is a great brother in Christ.

Tom Buck, who is someone else who I know well, did some post on X. Trevor shared just his personal testimony of him and his wife.

Tom's.

I don't remember what Tom's original tweet was about per se, but Trevor's response was to address the fact that his wife had not.

Was not born in a Christian home, was as an unbeliever, was in the New Age movement.

And she had been taken advantage of by several men.

She was a teenager, they were adult.

And, and that was, you know, he just posted this.

Well, Matt Walsh of the Daily Wire decided to address it on, on his podcast and then later that either I think it was that night or the next night.

Daily Wire has a.

What they call friendly fire where they get together and discuss things and they decided to highlight Trevor's post on there.

So let me give some caveats right at the beginning.

First off, I, I support Daily Wire.

I'm a one of.

I think there was only a thousand lifetime members of the Daily Wire.

I think I forget how many they had.

But so I am a lifetime member at Daily Wire, so obviously I support what they do.

However, what they did in this case was, was completely miss the point, which I can't really fault them.

They're not saved.

They are Conservative news people.

I'll put that with commentators.

But Matt Walsh, who was the one that started it, is a Roman Catholic.

As far as I can tell, he believes in Roman Catholic doctrine and would not be a Christian and not saved.

That was picked up by Michael Knowles, another Catholic, who, just like Matt Walsh, as far as I can tell, is not a Christian.

He's Roman Catholic.

The Catholic Church used to say there's a difference there.

They used to say we were anathema for believing what the Bible says, that salvation is by Christ alone and faith alone.

Right.

And so then you also had, you know, Ben Shapiro jump on.

Ben Shapiro is an Orthodox Jew.

He's not a Christian by any means, if you go far enough.

Back on my Rap Report podcast, I dealt with when a lot of people were asking me to respond to Ben Shapiro talking about the fact that Jesus couldn't have been the Messiah, I dealt with that and took the arguments he gave and we went through that and showed how he really doesn't understand the New Testament, let alone the Old Testament, in some of those prophecies that he was referring to.

So Andrew Clavin is the one who claims to be an evangelical Christian.

If you listen to Andrew Clavin, Andrew Clavin is actually the one I don't listen to from Daily Wire because he's like the least Christian like of the group.

So it's really pathetic that he's the one that claims to be the evangelical Christian.

So let's, let's set the stage really quickly.

And because I want to get to George and we want to talk about the gospel, but this is sort of along the lines, if you, I will recommend to you.

A friend of mine, Ray Comfort from Living Waters, did an interview with Trevor and his wife Ashley.

Now, I, for the record, I, I that as far as I know, I've never met Trevor's wife, Ashley.

I may have in an event.

We've done many events together, but what Trevor did was to just to talk about the fact that prior to marriage his wife was not pure and that after that, the first time they kissed was at their wedding.

It's the first time that they had, had kissed, were intimate in that way at all.

And what Trevor was trying to do was to point out the, that yes, you can have someone who is sexually impure before marriage, but they can have a relationship in Christ that makes it different.

In fact, he ended up referring to the fact that she kind of in a sense of saying like she was a new virgin because it was a different relationship.

His Focus was not on her promiscuity and what she had done.

His focus was on what Christ can do in redeeming us.

That was his focus.

The guys at Dally Wire totally missed the point and decided to go after him for.

Oh, he's.

He's like, outing his wife and.

And they're, you know, like, as if he was going.

And, you know, rejoice.

She was rejoicing in her sin.

That's not what she did.

And I'll encourage you to go to YouTube, go to living Waters, and look at the.

The video where Ray Comfort interviews Trevor.

And.

And so it's.

It's called just so you guys can go look.

When you look it up, it's called Ben Shapiro.

And.

And others mocked this Christian couple.

Were they right?

And for the podcast, I will link that in the podcast.

And so the issue I really had with this is the fact that what you end up seeing with this is that they missed the point of what Trevor was trying to say, which his focus was on that the gospel can redeem us no matter how.

How wicked we may have been.

You look at a guy like, say, Paul of.

Or Saul of Tarsus, he killed Christians.

He arrested them.

He could be forgiven and write most of the New Testament.

Okay.

Melissa is saying, I think that Ali Beastucky interviewed them.

Also.

I. I think that Ali had interviewed.

I don't know if she did both.

I.

But I think Ashley was on there.

I'm not sure if both of them were on there.

I did not hear it.

But I do know that Ashley was on Ali's podcast.

And so I.

This was something that a lot of people, three people, not a lot, three people had asked me specifically last week to address on the open Q and A.

And I didn't.

And so forgive me for that.

I wanted to make sure that I did address it.

I know Trevor personally.

I know that he was not out the way they were.

What really bugged me about what the guys at Daily Wire did on their friendly fire was to.

To accuse Trevor of calling his wife a whore.

He did nothing like that.

It was like one sentence of a longer post.

All of it about what God can do in a sinner's life to redeem them.

That's the gospel.

That's what we're going to talk about tonight.

And so I wanted to address this, and I purposely wanted to first do this for my audience.

So I held out all week.

But I do have ways of communicating to those at Daily Wire my next step after I did it for you.

Guys will be to be contacting folks at Daily Wire because I really think they need to repent of what they said about Trevor.

And I think they owe it to Trevor to have him on to voice clearly the gospel message that he was trying to proclaim and correct the record.

And so that is going to be what I will be seeking to do.

We will see.

We'll see how much influence I actually have or none.

But, you know, but, but it is something that folks, you know, we have to, we have to be careful.

I mean, like these guys at Daily Wire, they have to be careful.

You can't sit there and take what someone says and just because you can use it to get clicks or to, to get laughs or to use it to point out something you think is going on in social media.

You need to make sure that you are careful to properly interpret what is being said by people and not misrepresent them.

We, we say the same when it comes to sharing the gospel, when people misrepresent God and his Word.

And so we're.

I'm sure we're going to talk about that a bit tonight.

So I wanted to address that.

Folks have questions with that.

You can feel free to come in the second half of the hour and, and ask any questions.

But I will just say as, as I know Trevor personally, he is a very swee and would never be the type of person to throw his beloved wife under the bus.

Okay.

I have heard the way he speaks of his wife and it has never been in a way of demeaning or throwing her under the bus.

Okay.

So I just wanted to make that clear.

So.

All right, George, I'll open it.

I don't know if you, you've probably didn't follow any of that online because, you know, I know you.

You weren't sure when I mentioned it to you before we went on that I was going to talk about this.

You didn't seem familiar with it.

But I'll open it up just in case there's anything you want to share about that.

Yeah, I mean, I don't have any.

I'm not on the social medias.

I have like the business Meta business app to post things for the exchange and the other social media, you know, accounts I manage for different ministries.

But one of the things I think that a platform like X does is it kind of, kind of creates some brain rot in people and just kind of gets them confused about the truth and that kind of thing.

And it's, you know, like you said, it's a travesty to misinterpret somebody and not give them a chance to speak clearly for themselves.

And, I mean, I don't know what the exact conversation was from the daily wire, but I would just say this.

Paul said, such were some of you.

And so there were people who had a clear testimony in the Church of Corinth that made public their background.

How else would they know?

How else would the audience, when Paul wrote that letter know, such were some of you and to whom he was referring to?

I mean, after all, there was a young man and his father's wife, you know, probably his stepmother, involved in promiscuity.

And part of their testimony was that they were involved in promiscuity, and they were both members of the same church and back after having been disciplined.

And so I don't think there's a problem with being transparent about what God brought you out of, you know, as long as you do it wisely and all that kind of good stuff.

And like you said, it sounds like this individual wasn't trying to throw his wife under the bus.

I mean, it's a travesty whenever somebody else makes somebody else's testimony their joke.

I think you should never do that because the Gospel is preached through somebody's life and their story.

And so it's one of the most powerful gospel witnessing tools you have.

It's just your story of how Jesus saved you and what he saved you from.

And so it's never a thing to make fun of.

Yeah.

And I will say that I personally think we also have to be careful when we share our own testimony not to make it sound like we're rejoicing in our sin of our.

Our youth.

Now, for folks who know my testimony, I don't have this testimony where, you know, I was sleeping around or doing drugs or, you know, drunk or things like that.

That wasn't my background.

It was more of a logical decision for me.

But I have heard many testimonies where they talk a lot more about their sin than they do Christ, who saved them.

And so we do have to be mindful of that.

Melissa says this.

She says it turned out good because she is spreading the gospel because of it.

And that.

That, I think, is a thing.

There is a doctrine known, if you're not familiar with it, the doctrine of concurrence, where what men count for evil, God can use for good.

You see this throughout the scriptures.

You see it with what Joseph's brothers did with him, selling him as a slave.

But God meant that for good to save many People from a famine.

And so that's the God we serve.

And so, yeah, they were not expecting this.

Trevor's kind of more the behind the scenes type of guy.

He doesn't want to be out in the open.

And so this thrust him out there and they've used it for the gospel.

And so Wesley says, hey, it's what we were talking about the other week.

Platform building for clicks and ignoring the truth.

Yet I think there is a lot of that in, in here.

So we do have to be careful the platforms.

But what we do want to do with the platforms, Pastor George, is share the gospel.

And this is a thing where I think you probably experienced this as well as I, that when you talk about the idea of sharing the gospel with folks, I mean, everyone just runs to you and goes, tell me how to do it more.

I can't wait to do.

Is that what happens?

No.

Really, it's tough.

Yeah.

I mean, this is the thing God has commissioned us to do as his ambassadors, and yet so many Christians don't evangelize.

So I want to, I want to start off.

I mean, you're the ministry you guys have at the exchange.

And the website I'll give out throughout is the exchangemessage.com sorry.org exchangemessage.org when we talk about this, what is it?

I mean, we want to talk about what people could do about this because this is something that I think a lot of people struggle with.

I think there's a lot of reasons.

I mean, some reasons I think people struggle with sharing the gospel.

I mean, I think the biggest one is a fear of rejection, a fear of not having the knowledge to answer questions, fear of ruining relationships that they, you know, that they have with people, you know.

So let's start with that.

What are some of the things you see as why it is so.

So many are afraid to share the gospel?

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, when you, when you look at, you know, what are, what, what are the reasons?

Right?

There's that, there's the surface level here is what I'm saying is why I'm rejecting.

And then, you know, then there's.

You dig down underneath, you try to find the real reasons, all those things.

Fear of rejection, fear of not knowing enough, fear of ruining a relationship.

Those are all propositions based on a lie.

Right.

It's not the truth of how we are supposed to make decisions.

It's not the biblical framework for making these kind of decisions on whether we evangelize or not.

I mean, Romans 10, 14, 15 says, right?

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed?

And how are they to believe in him of whom they've never heard?

And how are they here without someone preaching?

And how are they to preach unless they are sent as it is written?

How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news.

So faith comes from hearing and hearing through the word of God.

I kind of always look at people, just say, don't you see that the sovereign God has ordained the means he does not save a part of from spoken gospel.

The gap between belief and action.

It's not a mystery of the flesh, it's a failure to tremble at the text that we just read, right?

And so people want to live a good life, but without the word of God, nobody's born again.

And the most precious gift we've been given by God is the gospel shining in us, in his word, the truth.

The best thing we can do for this world is deliver it.

And his last words, which are.

It's profound that they are his last words on earth before he leaves and ascends to the right hand of the Father, is to go out and make disciples.

Impossible to do without truth.

And that is simply our task.

The Spirit is the one who uses the word to pierce to the soul, to convict, to change people.

It's our job to deliver it.

I think that's why Romans Paul says, how beautiful are the feet.

We're the delivery guy.

We're not the package, we're not the product.

We're the delivery guy.

I'm the Amazon guy in terms of.

If I could kind of create a funny analogy like that to go and just deliver what Jesus Christ told me, he then does the work with that.

What do you see as the big gap between the.

What I'm going to say is the belief in evangelism versus actually doing it right.

I mean, I. I don't know a single born again believing Christian that won't say that, yes, we should be evangelizing, but doing it, that seems a lot harder.

It is, it is.

It is a lot tougher.

One of the things that maybe we don't realize is our role right in that gap.

We believe we should, maybe we'd like to, but we never have.

Why is that?

Fear is holding us back.

But also, maybe there's not a surrender to Jesus Christ.

I'm his mouthpiece.

I'm his mouthpiece.

I am to go out and preach his gospel.

I mean, wasn't that John the Baptist's role, the baptizer's entire ministry was to be a mouthpiece for Jesus and to say, hey, this is the message.

It's not about me.

It's not even about this baptism.

This baptism is a pointing forward to a much greater baptism that Jesus Christ is going to do.

But one is coming who is going to take away the sins of the world.

That is my job is to point to that person.

A refusal to point to them might also indicate in that gap between belief and action.

It might also indicate, you know, and maybe that's something that we're scared to say, is that in a world that hates Jesus, we're ashamed to stand up and say, I follow him.

But we are supposed to actually wear that comfortably on our shirt sleeve and say, this is who I am.

It's not that I'm obnoxious with it.

It's not that I go right up to people and shove it in their face.

But it is such that my role is to jump into action because Jesus has commanded me.

And I shouldn't be ashamed, I shouldn't be fearful, and I shouldn't be arrogant as to reject the command of my Savior.

He is the Lord of my life.

And my job is to follow, not to direct.

And so to not follow a directive is a bit of an insubordination.

And so sometimes as Christians in the kingdom, we kind of commit a mutiny, maybe unintentionally or maybe not, not totally in agreement with even ourselves.

We commit a mutiny of this is what Jesus has told us to do, but we just will not.

Yeah, we want to.

We.

We do not want to admit to that for most of us.

But in action, we don't do that.

You know, and one of the.

One of the things I do want to address some of the things that we.

I hear as someone that teaches evangelism, and one of the arguments I hear is with, well, more of my own type of camp, the reformed camp.

Many people say that the reformed understanding of God's sovereignty means that people don't share the gospel.

And I've actually have heard this from one person, only one.

But I have heard this from someone who had a friend of his who was in the hospital, not doing well, near death.

And I encouraged him to go share the gospel with him when he goes to the hospital.

And his response actually was, well, if God's going to save him, he's going to do that.

He doesn't need me to get to do anything.

And I know that there's many who make that accusation, that that is the way reformed folks do things.

I will admit Having evangelized all across this country and around the world, I find it's more the reformed folks that I'm evangelizing with, not because I'm agreeing with them in any way, but because they're the ones that happen to be out on the streets evangelizing.

And so I don't think it's valid to say that just because people are reformed, they believe God's sovereignty so much that God's going to save apart from our work.

But that is a challenge that we hear often.

What might be a. I mean, that is something that does deter some people.

How can we respond to that?

So one of the things that might help you is to have a tool in terms of a tool that enables you to respond with God's word without committing all of God's word to memory.

I mean, there were some pretty remarkable people in the Old Testament and even in Jesus time that actually had an ability, specifically the Pharisees and the scribes and the lawyers of Jesus Day.

They had an ability to really commit all of scripture of memory and that kind of thing and know everything.

But let me tell you, I don't know everything in every conversation when I start it, I'm having the conversation by faith, knowing that the truth of God has been taught to me.

And even if I can't point to a verse and a chapter, I know that what I'm saying is in agreement with the word of God because I've read it there.

And so it's not just about recall.

It's not about the ability to be quippy.

It's not about the ability.

There is preparation involved that will help that.

And so he is given us his word.

One of the things we've done at the exchange is taken 150 Bible verses related to this topic and verses that help introduce God as a person who is holy, just, loving, gracious and merciful.

And in those four chapters, you go through those 150 verses, it asks you questions about those verses.

And the beautiful thing about that is they're looking directly at God's Word.

I tell people all the time unbelievers that I start the Bible study with, you don't need to take my word for it.

You could take God's word for it.

You don't need to accept my conclusion, my bias.

I won't give you the answers.

Let's read the verses.

You come to your answers from the Bible directly.

That is the best policy.

I've always found that I can never go wrong using Jesus words.

When I go Wrong is when I use George's words because George's words are human words.

And so I think that's certainly a big piece to that question.

Yeah.

And I want to put up, let's see, where was it Wesley's comment here?

He says, speaking of evangelism, doing it is the hardest part.

When the, when you want to share something the world hates, it is hard.

And, and I think that, that, I think this is where as you started talking about and we have the link down or the, the link on the, on the video there.

Exchangemessage.org this is, this is what you guys have put together.

And this is, I'm just going to say, as I did on the Rap Report podcast, is the fact that there's a lot of different ways to share the gospel.

Right folks here, you know, I work with Ray Comfort, I work with Living Waters.

I help train their evangelists that they go out on the street when they have their ambassador's academy.

I've done that for years.

I've taught the Way of the Master.

And that doesn't mean it's the only way.

One of the things I was talking to my son in law tonight about was the fact that it's frustrating when I would get people that would be like, well, my church isn't doing Way of the Master.

They won't do Way of the Master.

Should I go find another church?

And I'd be like, no, it's so frustrating.

As if Pastor George, they think like, well, if they're, if the church isn't doing it my way that I'm into doing, then somehow they're like, this is the only way.

I think you would say the same with the exchange.

That's not the only way to share the gospel.

Neither would Ray say that Living Waters, the Way of the Master, is the only way to share the gospel.

In fact, I've seen Ray share the gospel plenty of times.

Not doing open air, but one on one conversations or handing out gospel tracts.

And so it is a frustrating thing to me when, when I hear that.

But let us, let's.

I want to give you a chance.

For folks who are not familiar with the exchange, there's a whole lot of books that come along with it.

And for the record, let me say this publicly.

After the Rap Report podcast that George did, he kindly sent me a set of the books because I, I've been listening to their podcast and learned a lot about how they do evangelism through the podcast.

I hadn't gotten the pro.

The, the books with the program, and he kindly sent me not one, but actually two sets for me and my pastor.

So we're going to go through them all together, he and I.

But I was.

I'm familiar enough through their podcast, the Gospel Exchange Podcast, which I encourage you guys to.

To follow and listen.

Listen to.

You'll pick up enough of how they go about sharing the gospel through that.

And so, and for the record, full disclosure, yes, they sent those books to me free of charge.

I'm not saying that you should go get them just because they sent them to me free of charge, but as I encourage my listeners on the Rap Report to support them, before I got the books, I had already sent them a donation that covered the books, plus shipping, plus more.

Right.

So I'm going to keep my word.

I'm not going to ask you guys to do anything I don't do myself.

But if you could.

George, could you explain, for folks who are completely new to the exchange, what is the program?

You already mentioned four lessons, but what is the overview?

How does the exchange work as a program?

Yeah, so the exchange ministry exists to equip laborers in the harvest, going back to when Jesus said the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.

So, I mean, this is the constant dilemma of church and ministry, and the kingdom is.

There is really an infinite amount of opportunities to share the gospel.

I promise you, if you think opportunity is the problem, it's not.

We could show you that there's plethora of opportunity in your own life.

If you just look and examine the relationships, the people you walk by every day, there's lots of opportunity.

The question is, how do we get more people involved in the harvest?

How do we get more people involved in taking those opportunities?

So what Jeff and Anna did is after 30 years of pastoral ministry, Jeff just decided, you know, I have really developed some tools for just my church in Colorado to be able to reach people in a way that's repeatable, sustainable, relational, theological, biblical.

And it is a very theocentric approach, meaning we really reveal God as a person.

We show them who God is.

And so he developed the exchange Bible study.

Well, it's four lessons.

You can do it in four weeks over coffee.

The book costs like six or seven bucks is price of a cup of coffee.

And you buy one for you, one for your friend, and you go through it, read the verses, ask the questions.

None of the answers are filled in.

You get to tell your friend, we do this together.

You see the evidence for yourself.

Then he created something called Living the Exchange.

After somebody Comes to Christ.

Okay, how do you disciple them further to kind of COVID the foundations of the Christian life?

Everything from eternal security to communion, baptism.

What does the Bible say about all those things?

Again, same format.

Then he created, you know, giving the exchange.

And he actually created this right after he created the exchange.

He created it before he created living the exchange, giving the exchanges.

Now how do I teach people to do this and become effective at it?

And so he started going to churches and doing seminars.

Then he took those seminars and he actually created a video series online, a course that you can take.

And that way people all over the country could take it.

Churches buy the corporate license and do like classes in their church with it.

And so now they've trained over, I think it's over 300 churches, over 10,000 people.

And it's really simple.

We just teach you two things.

We teach you how to build a relationship with somebody and how to share the gospel effectively from the Bible.

You know, how to kind of get out of the way of the Bible a little bit, so to speak.

And I think those two elements are really effective.

We love what Ray does.

I've taken Ray's class too at my church and we brought it to the church and that kind of thing.

I have no problem with it.

And I work with the exchange.

And so we brought the living water course to the church and the video series, all that good stuff.

Ray really helps prepare you for an audience of more than one.

Lots and lots and lots of people on the street, Open air.

It's a great way of engaging people.

I see him walk on the beach and really have great conversations.

I really envy the gift and skillset he has too.

We kind of prepare you for a more personal, private, one on one, an audience of one.

How do you look at your families, your friends, your co workers, your neighbors, the people all around you that you might not stand outside their door and, you know, open air, preach the gospel because you know it's in your neighborhood, that'd be a little awkward, maybe even rude.

But you know, it's not the beach setting where you have lots of people listening, but how do you engage your neighbor, the person across the street from you in the gospel?

How do you build that relationship?

How do you make sure you're not weird or awkward and all of a sudden you go too fast or things go too far or whatever?

How do you make sure you turn the conversation at the right point?

How do you go from surface level to soul level?

You know, all these questions.

And again, because we've interacted with over 10,000 people and helped kind of, it's helped refine how we teach people to do these things so that you do them in a way that's thoroughly biblical, very helpful.

Doesn't burn you out, doesn't make you dejected and discouraged about evangelism.

And also we teach you a theology of really knowing that it's God's plan in that person's life.

It's not about what we can achieve.

Some water, some so.

But, but God gives the increase.

So we never put the emphasis on your efforts.

We put the emphasis on God and how he's drawing men and how he's working in the hearts of people through his word.

Our job is just to be faithful, loving a friend, build the bridge and risk.

Yes, risk the relationship, take a risk.

Bring a person to a point of crisis and say, do you believe?

Don't you believe?

Do you know Jesus?

Who is Jesus to you?

Would you like to accept him?

I mean, those are all questions of crisis.

But that's the whole point.

It's why we go through the effort of building the bridge in the relationship, is to be able to risk it for the gospel.

Yeah.

And I think that this is where folks, you're not, you're.

If you're on the street like I do regularly, you're not going to be like, hey, let's get together, do a study, right?

But someone comes into my church as we had after Charlie Kirk died, or as we have because we have a grief share program, a lot of people come in because they've lost a loved one.

That's a good setting to say, let's sit down and go through something like this.

Let's look about who is God.

Well, you know, and I will say this, I can't remember if it was Todd Friel or Ray Comfort who said this.

Someone asked what's a good way of sharing the gospel if I really don't know the outline of Way of the Master or the Bible real well?

And the response was just go through God's attributes.

God is holy.

God is just.

So if he's holy and just.

You and I both know that we're not good people.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Come live with me for about 10 seconds, right?

If we know ourselves, we know that if God is holy and just, he is going to punish us because we are not holy.

And justice demands a consequence.

But the fact that God's also loving and gracious, well, how do you reconcile that?

We deserve punishment, but God is loving and gracious and merciful.

Now all of a sudden, what are we talking about?

The fact that you and I deserve a consequence, but God paid it.

Right.

And I thought that was a great way of explaining if you don't know a good way to share the gospel, just talk about who God is and the gospel comes out naturally.

Right.

So let's talk a bit about and Landon, I saw your question.

I'll get to that in the maybe the second hour, if you want to come in.

That would be good.

That way we can be clear on what you're referring to.

So that's the thing with the live show, folks.

If you want to join us live, go to apologeticslive.com that's how you join live.

You scroll down to the duck icon.

That is how you join.

And so that way we can.

It's always better.

I'm just going to say this again.

I say this many weeks, but it's always better to come in because of the fact that when you come in, we make sure that we don't misrepresent something that you're asking.

And, you know, I never know if I'm getting it right.

So that's the thing.

And so when you respond in the chat and then when there's the delay and then we respond back, it's hard to get it right.

I'm going to put this up before I go to the next thing, George, because this was something that we were actually talking about around the dinner table tonight is Melissa says, my dad asked me why it's called Good Friday.

And I just sent him a short text message about I, well, I think she, she had more she was going to say there.

But you know, we, we call, she says, so let's see.

She said, so pray for my dad to be saved.

And my mom, who, who my mom, who I read the Bible with.

So be praying, folks, for Melissa's dad.

We'll, we'll do that.

But George, this is a thing.

Why is, why do we call what for those of us here in America, tomorrow will be Good Friday.

Why do we call it good?

We got into this discussion.

My, you know, my daughter is saying maybe, you know, we should call it, you know, Glad Sunday, you know, great.

We're talking about call it Great Sunday, you know, like bad, Bad Friday.

Great Sunday, you know, or, or sad.

She had sad, Sad Friday.

But Glad Sunday, right?

What makes Good Friday so good?

But then also, let me ask you, what makes Sunday even better?

Well, I grew up Catholic, actually, so I think I understand why The Catholics termed it Good Friday.

But I'll tell you why I, as a Christian, would still continue to call it Good Friday Day.

It's funny, I'm actually preparing for a sermon.

You know the guys who were on the road to Emmaus, those guys were followed by a stranger, which we know to be Jesus Christ.

But he interrupted them and interjected and said, what are you guys talking about?

And they said, oh, it's so bad.

It's so terrible.

It was a horrible thing that happened on Friday.

What we thought was going to be the start of hope was the extinguishing of hope.

And, you know, the prophet, who was a great prophet by word and deed, and obviously they missed the point because he wasn't just a prophet, but he was a great prophet.

He died.

You know, they killed him.

The rulers, the chief priests, they killed him.

And so for them, what they were basically saying in that passage, it was a bad Friday.

I mean, we lost big time.

We thought this guy was the guy and he was going to bring relief, redemption to his people.

Of course, the Jewish people thought that meant like an earthly kingdom, relief from the Romans, that kind of thing.

That's all kind of present there in the text.

And as you read the Gospels, you'll see that dynamic in Jesus's ministry.

They wanted an earthly king and Jesus died.

And that was good.

And it's really easy to kind of look at it as a tragedy.

It's not a tragedy.

It's good.

You say, how is it good?

It's good like God is good.

It's good because that's our moral redemption.

It's good because that's the redemption of our soul.

It's good because we have a God who doesn't ask.

Who doesn't ask his creatures to die for him, but dies for them.

What is better than that?

And so that's why it's called Good Friday.

But the reason Resurrection Friday is the culmination in all of the events is because that means we have hope.

That means the message was real.

That means he was Messiah.

That means he was more than a prophet.

That means he defeated death.

That means heaven is a possibility for us all.

That means the atonement works.

God was satisfied.

That means that everything changes.

That means the Holy Spirit can come live and abide in us.

That means now that we don't have to go to a certain locale to see God's presence, but God's presence abides in me and I go to the world.

You know, the gospel was different in the Old Testament.

People had to come to Israel to meet God.

And now Jesus says to his disciples, go out.

You know, nobody needs to come in, go out.

You can go everywhere.

Jerusalem, Judea, all the world progressively outwards.

Paul, by the end of his ministry, goes as far as Spain, right.

And so go out and preach the gospel.

And the resurrection is the reason for all of that, is, is the confirmation of what happened.

Yeah.

And I want to give a challenge to the audience what my, my challenge to you.

We're going to.

I'm going to want to make this practical.

And I want each of you, whether you're watching or listening, think right now of five people in your life, five people you know, who need the gospel.

The reason I want you to do this is because I think that as we talk about this episode, I think it's going to become more practical to you if you actually implement it.

We talked about the fear, so I want to, I want to help you get out of your comfort zone.

Now, I'm going to, I'm going to say this if you think it's easy.

I have been doing open air evangelism where I stand out in the open and share the gospel to dozens and dozens or hundreds and hundreds of people.

As far back as I can date to 19, I think it was 94, which I think George, was when you came to the country, which I really, when you said that, I went ouch, like that year was.

And the only reason I know that, that that's as early as I could date it is I was in a church where we had to write a philosophy of ministry for every, every ministry we were doing in the church.

And so I had been doing it long before that, probably since the late 80s, like 89, 90.

And.

But 94 is when I wrote my philosophy of ministry on what I called open air evangelism.

I didn't know who Ray Comfort was at the time, so it wasn't anything with that.

But I was trying to explain what it is I was doing down at the Board Jersey boardwalk.

And so I go back that far.

But I'm saying that to say I've been doing it for a long time, it means I'm an old man, but I still get nervous doing it.

So what I want to do is make it practical because if we don't put this into practice, folks, folks, we're going to keep making excuses why we don't share the gospel.

So I want each of you think of five people.

Think of five people right now who, you know, who need the gospel, okay?

And as I asked George these next questions, I want you to have these people in mind.

What are you going to do to start conversations with them?

Right?

Because, George, this is one of the first things is there are people feel awkward starting the conversation now.

Right now we are in a great time to share the gospel because it is between Palm Sunday and Resurrection Sunday, right?

It is, I think, a lot easier right now.

So this is their encouragement.

Folks put this into practice this week, right?

Even next week when people, when you go to work and people say, hey, what did you do this week?

Weekend, hey, I was in church for Resurrection Sunday, don't call it Easter.

Because if you call not saying, you can't call it Easter, but calling a Resurrection Sunday sounds different.

So they may like, oh, what is that like?

So maybe focus on that.

That's one of the things I do.

But George, what are some practical ways that folks can start conversations that don't make us feel awkward or forced?

Yeah, so there's a couple ways to just think about this, right?

So number one, I've never gone wrong with this.

Take an interest in somebody.

Good point.

One of the things that we do that's a mistake is we do all the talking and none of the listening.

And you'll gain 10 times the audience if you listen versus if you just talk.

And so listening is a big deal.

Taking an interest in somebody.

I mean, I could sit down next to somebody, hey, how you doing?

What do you do for a living?

And then, boom.

I mean, the more they tell me about themselves, the more questions I have about their life.

And I try not, you know, don't ask, you know, TMI questions, but, you know, don't ask questions that are too.

Personal or TMI is too much information folks.

For those who don't pick up on.

Yeah, those who don't speak the SMS lingo, right.

Message lingo, that's for those older folks of us, right, George?

A time before there was text messages, keywords, every day.

So anyway, so take an interest in people.

Get to know them.

Show them love the instant you can.

Show them love the instant they reveal a need.

Meet it.

So I was talking with my neighbor who putting out our trash cans, he says, yep, we're about to have the baby.

Hey, got some extra baby stuff in my garage.

Can I drop it off at your front door?

Great.

He's Mormon, he's lds, I'm a Christian.

He doesn't know Jesus Christ as savior.

He knows Jesus Christ as a God, little G God.

He knows him as a prophet at the Least and a God at the most, little G God.

We don't agree on Jesus, but that's not where we're starting.

We're starting with, let me take an interest in you.

What do you do?

I see you have a golf putt putt business.

Tell me about yourself.

Let's have you over some time for a meal.

I'm just going to start building a relationship.

My goal is, before I become somebody who preaches the gospel to them, is to become a friend.

I think that's especially appropriate in the circumstance that they're the across the street from me, neighbors.

If I was in New York City in Times Square and I wanted to preach the gospel to all those people walking through, I would do what Andrew does, right?

I would walk, want to do what Andrew does.

Because that would be the most effective format for that method or any kind of public environment, the open air preaching.

That's how you meet that need in a public environment.

In an environment like the one I'm talking about, I'm going to take an interest, show love.

And then as we converse, I'm purposely going to take the conversation deeper and deeper.

Okay, I'm going to do it just by asking questions, getting to know the person, asking about their background, asking what their beliefs are.

A really, really great question.

A really great question.

Is this just a very simple one.

How would you describe your relationship with God?

You know, even an atheist has a relationship with God.

It's adversarial, it's not a good one, but he has a relationship with God.

And so I've never gone wrong with that question because people will always say, yeah, I mean, I think he's out there.

Or I don't think there is one.

Or, yeah, me and the big man have an agreement.

I don't go to church, but, you know, I just kind of like do good stuff.

There are all these different ways that people answer that question.

Eventually what's going to happen is somewhere along this way they're going to reveal a soul need.

They're going to reveal a need in their life that there is no earthly remedy for.

They're going to say something like, you know, sometimes I wonder if there's more to life than this.

Do you know Tom Brady in a 60 Minutes interview after his fifth Super bowl win, he's got his fifth Super bowl ring.

The interviewer asked him, tom, which one is your favorite ring?

And do you know what Tom Brady said?

Tom Brady said, the next one.

Here's a guy who's worth over a billion dollars, is Married to a supermodel, has all the houses, all the cars, can go anywhere in the world, buy anything he wants, is a household name in America, has won his fifth super bowl ring, has accomplished everything he should ever want to accomplish as a professional player in that sport.

And he just told you, there's got to be more.

And as a matter of fact, Tom actually goes on in the interview to say, you know, sometimes I think God, there's got to be more to life than this.

And he said.

He said the word.

He said God's name blasphemously, the way he said it.

But I wish he would have said, God, there's got to be more to life than this.

That's not how he said it, but it's how I'm saying it.

But the point is this.

People are going to ask those questions.

I wonder where all this came from.

I'm so lonely.

Does anybody love me?

Those are all soul questions that are answered in Jesus Christ.

And so that's what we got to do, Andrew.

We got to present him as a person.

As soon as those pop up, that's your ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, green light.

Hey, can I introduce you to somebody?

And so many times we lay the gospel out like a plan.

And I've just.

The more and more I witness to people, the more I lay it out like an introduction to a person.

This is who he is.

And what people do is they make a character of Jesus Christ.

So they.

Oh, he sends people to hell.

Oh, he's holier than thou.

Well, hey, hey, hold on, hold on.

You're making a caricature of him.

You're exaggerating certain features of his character.

That's only half the story.

Yes, he's holy.

Yes, he's just.

That is what justice requires.

But, you know, he's also loving and gracious, and he died for you.

And he loves you more than anybody could possibly fathom.

Can I introduce you to those parts of Jesus Christ?

And that's kind of how I would answer that question.

Yeah, I remember when I was in college, my roommate, who I roomed with him for two years, we knew each other well, shared the gospel with him plenty of times, but being from a Jewish background, which I'm also from a Jewish background, he just.

He would cut it off very early.

So I never really got to communicate the gospel well, in my opinion.

And I still remember the one time I sat down with him.

We weren't living together at this point.

He was in an apartment.

And I got to share what Christ did on the cross.

And he actually turned to me and says, you know, that sounds very loving.

That is the type of person I would be willing to follow.

But see, he didn't really see he had had a need to follow Christ because being Jewish, he, like I was raised thinking that, well, you're Jewish, you're automatically going to heaven.

And so he didn't see his need for a savior.

Yep.

But when I explained who Christ is and what he did, he went, that's someone.

He goes, I can understand why you follow him.

Yep.

And, you know, there is a concern, though, George, that I think a lot of people have that, that when we go to share the gospel, we're going to sound like a salesman.

I. I remember being at the mall and this guy walks up to me and goes, yeah, what church are you trying to promote?

You know?

And I said, I don't care what.

We're not promoting a church.

I said, and I mentioned, like, there were five of us at the mall sharing the gospel that day.

I said, you know, I just named off all the different churches, you know, and it was funny because the church.

Church I was pastoring at the time was Chinese American Bible Church.

So I said, you can go to his church, Great Commission Bible Church.

You can go to his church, you know, Calvary Chapel, Oak Bridge.

You can, you can come to my church, though.

You'll feel the least comfortable at my church at Chinese American Bible Church.

And he was like, wait, you're not here for a church?

And I went, no, we're here to give you the good news of Jesus Christ.

He actually stopped and listened because he was expecting a sales pitch.

And, you know, I had a friend of mine who would always say, when we share the gospel, we have to be careful to not make it a presentation.

It's a conversation.

Yep.

So you.

You guys are very big at the exchange on.

On genuine relationships.

We already heard you kind of mentioning that.

So how can we go about.

For these five people that everyone has in their head, I hope.

How can we have a genuine conversation with them around the gospel?

Yeah.

So let's say, let's theorize, right?

You have somebody, you know them, you already have a relationship with them.

You already have kind of some relational credit in the bank.

And you can go up to them and you start a conversation, take an interest, and you could just start with a question like this.

You could start the whole conversation just like this.

How would you describe your relationship with God, let's say to a co worker you've known for a couple years.

Or even a couple days, you could just over lunch, say, hey, you want to go grab lunch?

And you just sit down.

So what's your background?

How would you describe your relationship with God?

And then you go into four truths.

And this is the four truths that our entire approach is based around.

Four attributes of God.

Number one is, God is holy and can't tolerate your sin.

Now, I'm going to tell you these first two points.

This is number one.

But these first two points are brutal.

If the conversation can survive these first two points, you're gonna make it.

Because all the ones that don't survive the first two points don't make it.

So if they're ready.

And by the way, if the conversation doesn't survive the first two points doesn't mean it's over.

Just means they're not ready yet for the rest of it.

So stay in that person's life.

Show love, be witness.

Truth.

More truth, more time.

More truth, more time.

So God is holy, can't tolerate our sin.

Number two, God is just, and he must punish our sin.

He has to deal with it.

It would be corrupt on the part of God if he was bribable with your good works and could overlook your sin.

God is just and cannot, cannot overlook your sin.

So he is a judge.

He sits on a court, his court.

He established the law.

It would be contrary to his character to let it go just because he likes you.

And so justice is a matter of right or wrong.

And a lot of people will say, well, that's not fair.

And I'll say fairness.

And it's something Jeff taught me.

Fairness is about how you feel.

Justice is about the law.

So there's a difference.

So with.

That's why we base all of these attributes.

We go through 150.

150 Different Bible verses revolving around these four different attributes.

Okay, altogether, 150 Bible verses.

So that's about 45 each.

Okay, number three.

God is loving and has made a way for you to come to him.

God is loving and has made a way for you to be reconciled to him.

That's why it's called the great exchange.

2 Corinthians 5, 29.

For God made him.

That's Jesus Christ to be sin.

For us who knew no sin, that we might be made.

The righteousness of God in him, that is the impartation of Christ's righteousness to you.

And he takes your sin, he gives you his record, and that is the love of Jesus Christ.

I mean, he died for you.

How many idols?

How many Gods in your life, Little G. Gods want you to sacrifice, sacrifice for them.

You know, every NFL team wants you to sacrifice for them.

You know, everything in your life that's an idol wants you to sacrifice for it.

Sacrifice time and money.

God, Jesus is the only person who sacrificed himself for you.

There's no other worldview in the world where they set up their deity that way.

That is what is unique about the Gospel.

Every other deity says, do this for me, do that for me.

Do this for me.

Do that for me.

Jesus Christ says, done, I did it.

And then the last one is God is merciful and gracious and gives you this offer as a free gift.

You can't earn it because as soon as you earn it, it became a wage.

And anything that's earned is a wage you're entitled to.

Anything that's a gift is freely given without earning.

As soon as you decide to freely give it away, it's not a wage, it's a gift.

As soon as you decide you need to earn it, it's not a gift, it's a wage.

And so that's Romans 6:23.

For God.

Sorry, for the wages of sin is death.

But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you want to work for salvation, you can't call it a gift, which means you can't call it what the New Testament calls it.

If you want to accept it as a free gift, then you can.

But salvation is never proposed as a wage.

Something you earn, something you merit.

It has always been undeserved.

And that's how.

That's the kind of conversation we teach people to have.

That's how we teach them.

Present the gospel.

Yeah, and that's important.

I mean, the.

The thing is, is that if you come off insincere, if you're just trying to present on.

I went through this program and I'm supposed to show talk, but I've actually had this, George, where we would.

We were.

I was in a church where they use the Southern Baptist way of.

They had an acronym of faith.

And you were supposed to point to your finger to remind you of each of the points.

And here's five points of the gospel.

You were supposed to go through each one.

And I remember sitting there at someone's door where the person is just.

They're looking at their fingers and they're looking down and they're.

They're tapping their finger as they go through each of the five points.

And I'm looking and seeing.

Seeing this mother who is.

Keeps turning around and looking at her three year old, she has no interest at what we're doing at her front door.

But the person doesn't know it because she's doing a presentation.

She's just going through it.

She's not even looking at the mother.

She's not creating a genuine relationship with this mother.

And like, when she got done with her presentation, I looked to the mother because the mother's ready to close the door.

And I went, is that your daughter?

And she said, yeah.

I said, how old is she?

Oh, she's three.

Come here.

And she calls the daughter out, introduces the daughter.

What made the difference?

We sat there for another 20 minutes.

The difference was I connected with her with the thing that was the most important thing on her mind at that moment.

Her daughter.

She brought her daughter out, and now with her daughter there, that she knew her daughter was not getting into trouble while she's at the door.

She was willing to have a conversation, totally different conversation than the one she was having with someone that's pointing at their fingers and just doing a presentation and not paying attention to her.

Right.

And I think that becomes an important thing.

But one thing that is hard for a lot of folks is I think, George, I find a lot of folks are okay once we get into a spiritual realm.

But the question becomes, how do we transition from the natural to spiritual?

And I know, Wesley, you're backstage, so I'm going to bring you in shortly.

Before we get into that, I want to let Jeff.

Sorry, Jeff.

George, Jeff's not here.

George.

Play a game, George.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna give some, you know, give some words for our sponsors.

But while I do that, I'm gonna give you some time to think.

What I want you to do is you are gonna come up with a topic, whatever topic you think of, and I am gonna have the chore of going from whatever you give me to getting into a gospel conversation.

That sound like a fair challenge?

Yeah, sounds good.

Okay, so that is going to be he.

We're going to give him time to think about it while we talk about sleep, because, well, some.

Some of you can look at me and realize I need some more beauty sleep.

No, actually, the reality is, for those who know me for years, know that I have taken sleep for granted.

I used to sleep every.

Well, actually, when my bride met me, I slept every two to three nights.

And sleep would be anywhere from 15 minutes to three hours.

And it has caught up with me.

I have now realized, after many, many years of sleep deprivation, that sleep is extremely Important to our health.

It has caused a lot of damage to my health and therefore one of the things that I've really helped me to start getting more sleep is using products from MyPillow and that's why I reached out to them to be a sponsor.

They, I have their pillows, I have their mattress topper.

Their 3 inch mattress topper has been one of the probably the biggest thing to help me sleep longer at night.

But I Travel with my MyPillow.

Now I'm here at my daughter's at a super secret undisclosed location.

But I have a my pillow that we gave her so that when I come here I have my, my pillow here and I don't have to travel with it, but I don't travel without my pillow.

My, my pillow.

I know it sounds repetitive, but why?

Because it, it absolutely helps me get a better sleep which absolutely helps our health.

If you are younger like George here who's probably half my age, we're just gonna go with that.

He looks, looks at least half my age.

And so the reality is if you're younger, start getting a good sleep tonight.

Start taking care of your health now because taking care of your health now will have a bigger impact when you get older.

And so may I encourage you to go and get some of the MyPillow products.

Use our promo code SFE.

It stands for Striving for Eternity.

That gives you a greater discount but it also lets them know you heard about them through us so that they keep sponsoring us here at Apologex Live and really at Striving for eternity.

So mypillow.com use the promo code SFE.

Now I have had to do some things because of my health to really be into biohacking.

And for that reason, as I joked about earlier, yes, I get into cold plunging.

That people think that's not nuts.

Well, the saunas most of you are okay with.

You don't mind the heat, you can't stand the cold.

I'm the same way.

I have.

We have an agree affiliate program with Plunge.

That's where I have my cold plunge with.

They have saunas as well.

But I find them to be a really good product.

If you want to really get into helping to get more mitochondria into your cells, getting more cold adaptive to be able to handle just.

It is essential for brain function to force yourself to do something hard.

Challenge yourself every day.

Find something really difficult to do.

For me, that's doing a cold plunge.

A cold plunge is one of the hardest things I do all day after that it doesn't matter what stupid things I hear all day long.

Nothing's worse than getting into that cold water.

45 Degree water, especially when it's 9 degrees outside.

That's the hardest thing I do all day.

And so I have my cold plunge through Plunge.

That's the company.

The affiliate link we have is striving for eternity.org plunge striving for eternity.org plunge now my sauna that I have is through a different company.

Plunge has theirs perfectly good.

But if you want to save on a cold plunge or a sauna sauna the cheaper solution still good quality products but not maybe not as good but they're a lot less expensive.

Is POD company I have their sauna.

It's a, it's a individual sauna that is one person.

You can set it up anywhere in a house.

I right now where I'm at I don't have a lot of room and so I have a pod company sauna gets up to 185 degrees which is what you really want to try to get to between 175, 185 five days a week for at least 20 minutes.

And so if you go to strivingforattorney.org pod strivingforattorney.org pod that is where I you can get.

They have the more vertical cold plunges which some people think is better for you than lying down but I haven't noticed any difference.

But they are a little bit cheaper.

Cheaper.

But if you're going to get something you want something that's going to last, I'm going to say to go to plunge.

So those are some of the the different ways that I've been biohacking my health and hoping to live many years but die young.

Some of you have to figure that one out.

But yes, I want to live.

I want to be many, many years old and die young because I want to run around with my grandkids kids.

I wanna look, I was, I had the goal, George of giving my son a run for his money when you know, up until he was at least an adult.

And so I think he was 15 or 6 actually it might have been 16 or 17 before he could beat me at a 5k race.

So he had his work cut out for him.

I want to at least get to where my grandkids are teenagers before they can beat me at anything.

So that's my goal and that's I'm going to biohack my way there.

So, so all right.

We're back to our conversation now.

The biggest thing, as I said earlier, Pastor George, is the transition from the natural world to spiritual.

I think a lot of people, once it gets to spiritual things, they.

They feel good about it.

They know this topic, they can handle the topic.

And so I created a game of this.

My first pastor in our leadership training would give us a topic.

He would drop a set of keys on the table and say, get to a spiritual conversation.

It didn't have to necessarily be the gospel, but just how.

Training us to, to learn to look for illustrations in everyday life, which is really good for sermons and things like that.

He was so good at it.

Pastor George we back then, we rented a Seven Day Adventist church and they had, because they were vegetarians, they had lots of fruit and they had fruit bats all over this building.

And so in the middle of the sermon, there was a fruit bat that started circling the sanctuary.

And my pastor turned from the very topic that he was talking about in the book of Romans to the fruit bat, as if it was the illustration for the point he was trying to make.

I had three people after church because I was a deacon in the church that came up to me and asked me if I released the fruit bat.

Because his sermon just.

He flowed so quickly into it that they assumed that the fruit bat was an illustration for his sermon.

Not that he saw the fruit bat and saw everyone just staring up at the ceiling, spinning their head as it's flying around, and tried to use an illustration to get their attention back.

Back.

He was just that good at it.

So I've made a game of it to say that we should do this with the gospel.

We should be able to take any, any topic and transition to the gospel.

And folks, if you want to see where I've done this, I used to do this weekly when we would do our Striving Fraternity Academy classes.

But if you go to the striving fraternity academy YouTube page, we have a full playlist where people have given me different things to transition to the gospel.

And you could see me, me with no edits.

You see me actually in real time having to transition.

And some of them you're going to go, wow, that was really good.

And most of them you're going to be like, yeah, you could have used some improvement there.

But we're going to see how I do here because Pastor George is going to give me something that I'm going to have to transition specifically to the gospel.

Here we go.

I'm nervous, Pastor George.

What am I gonna.

What is Our conversation going to be,.

All right, well, since it's that season, I'm gonna use this because it's on my mind.

Tax day.

Tax day is coming.

Taxes.

How do you go from taxes to the gospel?

Taxes?

Taxes are the one thing no one wants to pay.

Yeah, we know they're somewhat necessary, right, because we, we do need to fund our government to protect us from enemies abroad.

That's what taxes were supposed to be for.

Now that for a lot of things we don't support.

Right?

That's true.

There's a lot of our tax money.

We don't like how they're being used.

But we end up in a case where in any, any government system people pay taxes and they don't have the say of how it gets used because they are in a representative government, whether that representative is a king or in our government.

I know this is going to shock some folks.

We're not a democracy in America.

We're a representative republic.

In other words, we vote people in to represent us in government and they decide how our taxes money is going to be spent.

And we may not always like how it's spent, but the reality is we don't have the say.

You know, the thing though is, is that that's not unlike many other areas where we have people that represent us.

And whether we like it or not, we're accountable for decisions they have made.

Whether it's with our taxes, whether it's with governments taking us to war, or whether it's with what happened many, many years ago in a Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve chose to violate God's law and bring sin and the curse of sin into humanity and all of their offspring.

And you and I, George, are unfortunately, that we don't like it.

The recipients of that sin nature, because of what Adam did, He brought the curse of sin and into humanity.

And we suffer under that curse of sin.

And because of that, you and I, though you might be far more moral of a person than I am, our morality doesn't get us right with God.

What gets us right with God is what God did 2000 years ago when he became a man and took on the consequence, the punishment of our sin upon Him Himself to offer to us his righteousness.

So God himself came to earth.

He became sin that we may have the righteousness of Him.

That is something we don't like to think about because we don't want to think about our sin.

But yet we think about Adam as the first representative for us.

We now can look at Jesus Christ.

Christ Is the second Adam, the second representative that now we can have eternal life through what he did that we don't deserve.

So that's how I could go from taxes, a very not liked conversation, to the gospel.

Yep, that's great.

Give me some time.

I might think of a better way of doing it.

But.

But it is a game.

Look, folks, I, I make a game of it because.

Because of the fact that if you guys play this with small groups, you're going to find ways to share the gospel and you're going to end up using some of them.

I mean, I know for personal experience, I was asked to share the gospel from a fire.

A fire.

Oh, I'm drawing a blank on the word.

When you hear the fire truck go by, the alarm.

But siren, siren.

Thank you.

Old age.

And so it was a thing where I thought of a way to share the gospel.

Well, I was in New York City.

I'm sharing the gospel with a person.

An ambulance went by, and I saw the guy's head turn as he looks at the ambulance.

And I remembered the example I used with this guy in a church setting.

And I turned to this guy in New York and I said, you know that ambulance?

You're looking at that.

That siren is a warning.

It's warning you of a danger.

You need to pay attention, exactly as I am doing right now with the message I'm giving you from God that you are in a danger of spending eternity in a lake of fire unless you repent of your sin.

The guy just turned right back to me.

I had his attention, and we had a great conversation after that.

And so.

So that's a game you guys could play.

And the more you play it, the better you get at it.

The better you get at it, the less fearful you are in taking a conversation, still having it as a genuine conversation, but taking it and transitioning from the natural to the spiritual.

Now, I'm not going to put Pastor George on the spot and ask him to do one, but I'm sure he could.

And, but you know, when you first start, it's going to take more time, but if you can get the conversation to the spiritual, I find that people do a lot better with that.

And so are there some questions when starting conversations?

Pastor George and Wesley dropped out.

It looks like he's dropping in and dropping out.

So I don't know if he's having trouble, but if he stays in, we'll get him on to answer his question.

But Pastor George, are there some questions you have?

I know some questions I have when sharing the gospel, they're kind of like my go tos that I can kind of always get to a gospel conversation to.

But do you have any kind of like openings that you guys that you use a lot?

Yeah, so there's a couple that I use I already told you about.

One, how would you describe your relationship with God?

Another one is, have you ever like looked around at the earth and wondered where all this came from?

That's just kind of searching to kind of see if they've ever wondered, is there like a teleological.

We call that, it's a big fancy word, theological word, meaning do they wonder where everything came from?

What was the first Cause, hold on,.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on pause because only for one reason.

Wesley came in.

He said that he's only got seven minutes.

So let me, let me bring him in.

We're going to come back to that.

Wesley, I'm going to bring you in.

So I know you've been trying to come in.

You've been coming in and dropping.

So what question you got?

Hello?

Yep, we can hear you.

I'm having audio issues again.

Oh, you can hear me?

Yep.

Okay.

Normally it shows on the screen when you're talking, so it confused me for a sec.

Okay.

Anyway, so this has been a great conversation.

I had something relevant to the topic that I wanted to.

I won't be able to hear the answer, but I'll just tell you that you can comment on it.

So last week I was talking to a friend of mine about sharing the gospel and they did not want to share it with some cousins of theirs because they, the cousins had previously had a bad experience with the gospel, so they were too scared of going and trying to make, convert them to Christians because they had already had a bad experience.

So I, I tried to convince them, you know, like, I basically, I did a bad job of convincing that because I basically was kind of meat.

I was like, do you want them to go to hell?

So I did a bad job.

But, but yeah, I did a bad job of that.

I, I, I really, I'm bad at being nice.

Like I will say what scripture says and then just not make, make tailor it for the audience.

But yeah, that's basically what happened.

And I want say in short summary.

So, so you're looking for ways to better maybe handle a conversation like that?

Yes.

How to be nice.

But.

Yeah, so I was being biblically accurate.

But I, I did do a good job at convincing them because of it.

Yeah.

So, Pastor George, what, what do you.

How would you.

How can you answer that?

But I know we.

He's.

And we may have to answer this further when he drops off, but yeah,.

So there.

I mean, I listen to what Wesley's saying there, and I love the heart behind it, which is, you know, hey, there's this urgency in sharing the gospel, so you should just do it.

And I totally get that.

And that is true.

The other thing that.

Just listening to what the cousin is saying, the other thing that strikes me is that there's a loss of trust.

And trust has never been built in a day.

Trust gets built over a very long time.

And so I would say to that cousin, continue to be in that life, continue to present truth.

Every opportunity they give you, you have continue to love, continue to consistently live out your faith.

And there's a difference between what I'm describing, lifestyle evangelism.

So I'm talking about something far more intentional, purposeful, something where you do speak Bible verses right into their life and so they could hear the words of Jesus, the words of God.

And so I would win that person over time with trust in love, using the word of God and his truth.

And usually people like that that have been hurt by something, it's going to take them more time.

It's just going to take them more time.

Sometimes it takes almost a decade.

We have stories about people who came out of Islam, took them a decade to try trust a Christian.

And you know what?

Worth it.

Worth it.

Take your time.

Worth it.

Yeah.

And I know Wesley had to drop.

That's a great point because I'm more like Wesley, you know, I have the gift of exhortation.

It sounds like you have more the gift of mercy.

My pastor and I are a good team.

He has mercy, I have exhortation.

But yeah, you're right, it is a thing of trust.

I wouldn't have thought about that as a response, and I think that's a really, really good response is the fact that we need to build that trust.

But you did say something before we get.

I want to get back to the open questions, but you mentioned a difference.

You mentioned lifestyle of evangelism.

And I think that sometimes I think that people may accuse the exchange of being that.

And.

But it's clearly not.

And so because you guys do focus on the relationship and where people hear that is in lifestyle evangelism.

So since, since you brought that up, what.

What is lifestyle evangelism?

And then what is the difference between one, what you guys do with the exchange?

Because that's a really important Aspect.

Yeah.

So hopefully I don't mischaracterize lifestyle evangelism, but what I understand about lifestyle evangelism is you live out your life as a Christian, as a Christian would, without ever really saying a word about what you believe.

And you hope somebody will just look at your actions and lifestyle and come to the conclusion that Jesus, Messiah God and that he is the atonement and the one who can reconcile them with God.

All that stuff which I would say is a doomed approach.

Right?

Because for the very same reason that Romans 1 says creation is not enough to get you to Jesus.

Creation is enough to get you to the concept that there's a God.

General revelation.

But you need specific revelation.

You need the word of God, you need the words of Jesus.

What we teach is to intentionally build a bridge of relationship for the sake knowing ahead of time this is exactly what you're going to do.

You're going to risk it all to deliver them the truth because the truth will set you free.

Right.

So they need that truth.

And so the whole point from the start is to share that truth and create a crisis where they have to make a decision.

Lifestyle evangelism is.

There's no intention.

There's never an intention from the get go.

That.

That's the point.

It's kind of like we hope you stumble in the dark and do a couple somersaults and boom, all of a sudden you know Jesus.

That.

That's not how people come to Christ.

That's not how the Bible teaches people come to Christ.

You have to be more intentional.

And so we teach you how to build a relationship for the intention of sharing Christ.

We don't teach you to build a relationship for the relationship's sake.

Is that.

If that makes sense.

That is a perfect explanation.

That's.

And that's actually how I explained it as well.

Why I'm against the lifestyle evangelism, which never actually gets to the evangelism part.

So.

So okay, let's get back to the.

The openness, right?

Because this is the open ended questions that.

I'm sorry I cut you off there, but I knew what I saw in the chat.

Wesley said he only has seven minutes before he had to go to Bible study.

So I wanted to at least get a chance to get him to get his question in.

So.

But let's get back to that.

And because you did have some.

You do.

That's a. I do like.

And I may steal with permission.

That should be stealing.

I like the.

The idea that you have.

So where are you at With.

With God.

Yeah, yeah.

It gets right to the heart of the issue.

Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

How would you describe your relationship?

And, I mean, you set yourself up to talk about it in the prism of relationship and kind of couch the whole concept very relationally so that they know this is about, you know, a relationship with your creator.

It's not about a religion.

You know, religion is a construct of do this, do that to merit God's favor.

And that's not what the Bible teaches.

People will tell me, oh, I'm.

I don't do religion.

I'll say, oh, that's good.

Me neither.

Because I don't.

I don't do religion.

I do relationship.

I do grace, I do Jesus Christ.

You know, that's what I'm about.

And so that's one question.

So we've already talked about the other question, which is people sometimes say, you ever wonder where all this came from?

That's a good question.

Another one is, how do you know the difference between right and wrong?

Because it gets at.

Is there absolute truth?

How do we know rape is wrong?

If there isn't a God, how do we know rape is wrong?

And so you can ask a question of, how do you.

How do you know what's right and wrong?

Another one is, you ever wonder.

You ever wonder what happens after you die?

That's one of, you know, hey, eternal life.

And humans are designed to think about that.

That's why funerals are so sobering.

And that's why Ecclesiastes would say, King Solomon would say, it's good to go to a funeral.

It makes you think about the brevity of life.

And so people are always open.

I remember when 9, 11 happened, how many people were in church that Sunday because everybody was thinking about, wow, war can touch us.

I mean, we're oceans separated from some of the worst people on the planet and a lot of evil.

But still, you know, war can touch us, tragedy can touch us.

Right here.

I think another question is, do you ever wonder if there's, like, a bigger purpose to life?

That's a really big one.

The last one is this.

Do you ever feel like nobody really loves you?

You're lonely, you don't have real connection?

That's one that goes to relationship.

See, humans were designed for relationship.

And so when this is something we're seeing in the AI world and the online social media, I mean, if you watch the news this week, Facebook lost a pretty big lawsuit.

And the YouTube, YouTube, Google, they lost a pretty big lawsuit because of how their algorithms are designed to get young people, 14 year olds addicted to doom scrolling.

And one of the things it does, being removed from real life relationships into a totally digital world.

There is a part of your brain, I think it's the right side of your brain that is designed for those social interactions and, and when that is neglected, you have no real connection.

You really start to experience some pretty detrimental mental health issues and some really, really bad, bad things happen in your life in terms of how you start to think about the world and what kind of person you become and the behaviors you take on.

And so people are designed for connection.

These are the things that God has told me about people.

These are the things that the Bible has told me people wonder about.

And so when you have that knowledge ahead of time and God can gave you the blueprint to a human soul, you kind of gives you.

Those are where the questions come from.

You know those, those are how we know what questions to ask.

Yeah, and, and you know the, and I'm going to go to Landon who came in the backstage.

I'm really glad because we, I was going to go to his question and he's here so I can make sure that I get it right.

But you brought up the issue of rape.

Here's how I word this folks, and I'm gonna, I want to give this to you because there's a very specific, specific reason that I word it the way I do.

When we talk about what's right and wrong, I ask the question, is the act of rape always wrong?

What am I doing in that?

I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about the act itself.

There's a reason for it.

I'm going to get to is the act of rape wrong?

And I'm not saying wrong, but always wrong.

In other words, I'm saying is it universally wrong?

It is it wrong everywhere, every time.

Because what I'm appealing to is absolute standards.

Because if they want to deny God exists, they can't appeal to an absolute standard and yet they don't want to say rape is ever right.

So they rationalize, they try to deal with it and they say, so I'm saying is the actual of rape always wrong?

To which they always say yes.

And then I talk about a case that happened in New Jersey where a dentist was putting people, you know, under, where they were not aware what was happening and he raped him and they didn't know it happened.

And because I'll ask what is it that makes rape wrong?

And they'll say it's the harm that's done.

And here's the interesting thing that that came out of that there.

Basically what the way this became known was there was a woman who became pregnant, and she knew she hadn't been with a man.

And so she concluded the only thing that could have been was when she was unconscious in the dentist office, she did a paternity test, and sure enough, it was his child.

When that got into the news, there were other women who had children.

They weren't thinking it was with their husband, and they went and got patient paternity tests.

And so I think it was like 20 some women this guy had that they knew of that were raped.

Now here's the interesting thing.

Many of these women never had the effects of being the.

The harm of being raped until they knew that it occurred.

So in other words, as long as they thought it was the child or whatever was with their husband or they didn't know it occurred, they didn't have the trauma from it.

So I point that out that I'll say to people, so it wasn't the act of rape that was wrong.

It was the knowledge of rape.

So in other words, you're saying that as long as we don't tell people that they're raped, it shouldn't.

It should be okay, and people will quickly move the goalposts, go, no, no, no, no.

It's because they didn't give consent.

So, you know, what you just did was just realize that you said the act itself itself was wrong because of harm, and now you're saying it's because of consent.

So which is it?

How do you know they didn't consent?

They.

They weren't aware of what was going on.

Right.

So I give that as a way of showing that the, the reason the act of rape itself is always wrong is very simple.

Because God is not a rapist.

Because what makes something right or wrong is based on.

Based on the nature of God.

Why is lying wrong?

Because God's not a liar.

Why is stealing wrong?

Because God's not a thief.

Why.

Why is everything that we would say is wrong?

It's because it goes back to the nature of God, who God is, and that's what makes it right or wrong.

So God's not a rapist.

That's why rape is wrong.

I mean, there's, there's.

You can dig deeper into why God is not a rapist, wisdom, what his.

His other attributes are, but essentially that becomes the issue is we go back to who God is because God is the definition of what is good and just.

And Anything that violates his nature is what is the definition of.

Of unjust or evil?

So.

All right, let me bring Landon in here because he had a.

He had a question, and I. I'm gonna just say I may have to dig deeper on the question, but.

Landon, welcome to the show.

Hey, guys, is this your first time on or.

I.

It's not.

We had a conversation.

I thought so.

Was a long time ago.

Yeah.

Well, welcome again to the show.

And so let's.

Let me.

I had your question starred.

I'll put it up in.

But you can.

You can go ahead and share about.

Got it.

So there's your question.

Yeah, sure.

So I have this question around the idea of abduction.

So for anyone that's not a philosophy nerd, we have these modes of reasoning.

We have deduction, which is how we infer conclusions from known facts, with induction, which is how we try to make predictions about what will happen based on known facts and past experience.

And we have abduction, which is commonly called the inference to the best explanation.

And I think it hopefully offers a kind of interesting angle to apologetics, which is that when we're talking about worldviews, I think we have a limited set of facts, an incomplete set of facts.

And so there's always.

We're sort of playing this weighing game of what explanations are convincing and which aren't.

And I just wonder what you guys think about the idea.

If someone.

If I'm saying, hey, I don't find Christianity convincing, not because I have some issue with the values I think God has or expresses or some sort of, like, moral issue or something, but that I just kind of, on its face, don't find the explanation.

I don't find it to be a good explanation for the world as we see it, or at least a convincing one.

Who cares?

Just what you guys thought.

Yeah, And I could be mistaken.

You may know more, but I. I think the first I've known of this was a book referred to as why I Became an Atheist by John Luffis.

I don't know if that's what you're referring to.

Okay.

He.

He.

He makes the.

This argument in his book.

And.

And he basically laid out a couple of points.

So he.

He basically makes the case of, you know, like, why should we accept, you know, any worldview other than through evidence?

Okay.

And.

And he.

He looks at them and says, basically, if I look at all the different worldviews, naturalism has a better evidence for the way the world works than Christianity.

And so his conclusion is, well, then we should be a Naturalist over Christianity.

So I didn't know if you were approaching it from him.

And there's different arguments he makes.

The problem of evil, you know, things like this that they think Christianity doesn't really have a good answer for.

I think the way I approach it simply is this is if.

Let's step into their.

The worldview of the person who claims to be an atheist.

God doesn't exist.

You and I, Landon, are just chemical reactions.

There's no morality to it.

It's not right or wrong wrong, because morality would be something immaterial.

Right now you have a problem because if there is no immaterial world, you are having by this abduction, you're having to rely on reasoning to reason which worldview is the best.

And yet reasoning is an immaterial thing, which you can't have.

I mean, you can't take two chemical reactions and create reasoning.

Well, yeah, in this situation, I would just say, at least contextually for my question, it's not because, oh, I find another worldview, another full account of cosmology and metaphysics and ethics and knowledge and intelligibility and whatever else else convincing or solid.

So it wouldn't.

I would say, not.

I would say the materialism point isn't necessarily a refute to my angle, but it's more of sort of.

What do you say to someone who finds Christianity specifically unconvincing, not necessarily in favor of a different view?

Well, yeah, I guess first we would get to the point of saying, okay, we.

So you're saying, okay, of the other worldviews out there, which.

Why would Christianity be more convincing than others or others more convincing than Christianity, would that be?

I'm just saying in isolation.

Okay, what do you say to someone who just says Christianity is interesting?

Maybe I'm very familiar with it.

I just don't buy the explanation.

Okay.

Just as far as I can tell, I just genuinely am not convinced that that's true.

Okay, so this gets into something, is what I think.

Yeah, yeah.

To be perfectly transparent.

Yeah.

So here becomes an interesting way of, of dealing with it.

The way I, I deal with it when I get this on the street, which is I will ask someone, Landon, how many, many religions there are in the world?

I get the answer from dozens to thousands.

And what I usually do is say, no, there's only two.

And I do that on purpose because what that does is get people to go, wait, what?

And I know because they pay more attention to me now in what I'm about to say because they're thinking of, well, There's Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism and Roman Catholicism and Islam and this ism.

And that ism.

And that ism, right?

And they're thinking of all those going, what do you mean two?

So I will say there's man made religion and divine and that's it.

Now the question you're really asking is how do we know the difference between man made religion and divine religion?

Now does that seem like a fair way of approaching it?

Right.

Just from at this point with someone.

Like that, I think it would be fine.

I still think what I guess I'm trying to do is say if you take.

What I'm trying to do is remove the comparison move, that typically happens, which is fine.

I got issues with making comparisons.

But at least as a thought experiment for the two of you, you take the comparisons out of it and someone just says, hey, I don't know what the explanations are for any number of things.

I have ideas, but I think they're abductive in that sense of like, I don't claim to have certainty, but I just.

On its face, I don't find Christianity convincing.

I don't feel like it fits the world that we know.

I'm just curious, sort of what.

Yeah, I think you can't remove the comparison with a person like that because their presupposition is that you should be able to compare these things, right?

They're doing a comparison.

So I don't know that you can remove the comparison completely because the only way to do it is to just say, well, God exists, he has spoken and ended there.

Right?

They're not going to accept that.

So, so what I would do is do the comparison and saying that one thing we know about all human beings is we love to praise our good works.

Every single human.

If you have a king that loses a war, he's going to talk about the battles he won, right?

You can go through history and see that where we know historically these rulers who lost wars, but in their writings they talk about the battle they won this battle and that battle because we all love to praise our good works.

And so one thing, there's three things that I would say that makes Christianity unique among every world religion and this uniqueness is what makes it divine.

And the first and key element is that it is not something that man does to get right with God.

It's something that God does that man gets right with.

So it's who does the work.

And the reason this becomes a really important one is because I think people have a legitimate argument when they say all religions are the same.

What they're saying is all man made religions because every man made religion is focused on what humans do.

And therefore they're really a system of morality.

Don't do this, do this.

And so they look very similar.

However, in compared to Christianity it's different because it's not a set of rules of what you must do to get right with God, it's what God did that you can be right with Him.

So the person who does the work changes and that makes all the difference.

That's why every man made religion is based on a system of morality where Christianity is based on a person.

You can have, you can have Mormonism without Joseph Smith, you can have Islam without Muhammad because there's nothing specific about those individuals that the teachings they have required for that individual.

But you cannot have Christianity without Jesus Christ because the teachings of Christianity are essential to, to the nature of who Jesus is.

Being fully God and fully man, being fully God, he could pay the eternal fine for people being fully man.

He could be a substitute for people having never broken God's law.

So this makes it unique because it's about a person, not a system.

So one thing is it's about not works, but grace, all of grace.

Second, it's about a person, not a moral system.

But here's the one that people don't think about is that Christianity is the only religion where you can have a God that's both just and merciful.

Because in every man made system they will say God is both just and merciful, but justice and mercy are mutually exclusive.

The way I like to illustrate this Landon, is if the law said that if you slapped me in the face, I would have to slap you back with equal force.

Well, slapping you back with equal force is justice, not slapping you at all is mercy.

But if I slap you with half the pressure, it's neither justice nor mercy.

Right?

These two are mutually exclusive.

But Jesus being fully God, paying an eternal fine because he's an eternal being, the full weight of punishment of our sin was paid upon him because he's an eternal being.

Being a man, he can be a substitute for us.

So the full weight was paid.

There was no easing off of the punishment of sin when Christ died.

Died.

So because of that he can now offer us mercy because the he paid the full punishment.

And that's why only in Christianity can you have a God that is both just and merciful.

Because he paid the full payment and now can offer mercy.

Does that at least do you think I know you're you're stepping into the world view of a person that holds this view.

But do you think that might be a more compelling argument for them?

Well, I.

No, sorry.

Maybe I miscommunicated.

Before I do hold this view, I'd be interested what George said, but I think ultimately it's not.

My question is not about the uniqueness of Christianity.

Like, I could buy that explanation that Christianity is unique and maybe even prefer it among the menu of religion.

But on the specific point that.

But I still just don't think the story is true.

If there's a way to just address that question where I'm not saying because Y is better than X, I'm just saying I hear the story, I understand it as well as I can, and my intuition is that that's just.

That doesn't seem to fit, you know, whatever ingredients I have.

Okay, so I may answer a bit differently.

But George, since he asked it to you, do you have, you have anything you want to respond with?

What do you think?

Yeah, let me put the, Let me put the bottom line, Landon.

It's a really great question.

You know, it's kind of.

It's kind of.

It begs for.

For a solution like Occam's Razor, like, what's the best, simplest solution, right, for the world we're looking at with our physical eyes?

You could read the Bible, and I wouldn't imagine that somebody who read the Bible with a fair mindset and gave it a fair shake would come to the conclusion that it's a bad explanation for the circumstances around this.

But you're asking, what's the best explanation?

And I think to your point, you have to try it.

It's like, how do you end up buying a car?

Do they convince you of the car before you've driven it and tried it?

Or is there an aspect of you should experience it if you're really going to make a full decision?

And that's one of the things that I think is a really honest presentation to this question is, you know, one of the reasons that I'm convinced of my faith is because I know him.

I've read the scriptures, I've tried it.

I know the difference in fulfillment in my soul.

I know the difference in eternal security in my soul.

These are all experiences.

Sometimes Christians shy away from saying, you know, you ought to have an experiential moment.

And I would agree.

Experience is not everything.

Feeling is not everything.

Our feelings and emotions are not the best judge of the validity of a worldview because your feelings fluctuate.

They go up and down.

So when there's belief involved, that's what,.

That's why you need truth.

Exactly.

That's why you need truth.

So truth is a key ingredient.

Truth is a key ingredient, but truth will make a difference in your life.

So if you try it and you get to know him.

I put it like that very specifically because you've been listening.

You know, how relationally I caveat.

This whole thing, the whole worldview to me is an inclusion into God's family.

Not that I'm going to be co equal with any member of the Trinity.

That's Mormonism.

What I'm presenting is I was created a creature that's designed to have a relationship with the Creator.

You will know if it's real if you try it.

I mean, that's one of the things I would encourage you to do is go through a Bible study, sit down with a Christian, find somebody who's not going to try to convince you academically.

Find somebody who will introduce you and see what you think of the experience in God's Word.

God's Word is a living document.

It is not like any other book you will ever handle in your life.

The Holy Spirit promises to use it in your heart as you read it, to either draw you closer or push you away.

And that's a pretty scary dynamic.

Sometimes we have to deal with very tough passages in scripture.

But either after the experience, you'll be more hardened against it or you'll be drawn towards it.

And the difference is a work of God that I can't control as a person because honestly, I'll never convince you.

You know how I know that?

Matthew 16.

Jesus asked the disciples, who do people say that I am?

That's what you're asking?

I mean, really, the question behind your question is, who is Jesus?

And the disciples go, you know, some people think you're Elijah.

Some people think you're John the Baptist reincarnate.

Some people think you're a great prophet.

He said, okay, no, no, no.

Who do you think that I am?

And Peter pipes up, thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And then Jesus says something very important to him that we sometimes gloss over.

He said, blessed are you, Simona, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who's in heaven.

Which means it's not a matter of convincing.

I could never convince you.

I have to show you.

It's like, I could convince you my car is awesome.

That means nothing to you.

I could show you that my car is awesome and then you'd say you're a liar.

It's a Prius, it's not awesome.

So you know, that's really how you know is you go meet him, you know.

Yeah, my background is Christian.

I grew up very happily Christian for the majority of my life.

So that's a long story.

We don't have time and it's not a.

Which hopefully is somewhat apparent in my disposition.

But I didn't come out of it with the bad taste in my mouth either.

Still actually very affectionate towards it in a lot of ways.

But I do kind of just find myself I think in that place of was gradually sort of convinced that I just genuinely just don't know that it's true.

And let me first put up because we always have when people give a super chat to someone Georgia gave a ten dollar super chat to saying to George, good stuff.

Reasoning from God to man, not man to God.

Thank you.

And so yeah, I mean that's the thing I would say, you know Landon, the way I would argue is I'm going to be more presuppositional in this way is the fact that you're trying to reason your way with this.

And I would argue you don't have have an evidence problem, you have a sin problem like the rest of us.

Right?

We all have that problem.

And the way Romans 1 says we deal with it is to suppress the God we know exists.

But the real thing is that if we take a step back, if God doesn't exist, if the God of Christianity doesn't exist, we can't make sense of it any.

Anything in reality.

Right?

So when we look at and say well like naturalism would make more sense, it makes no sense at all.

Right.

Because it can't even account for the immaterial things of the world.

But I don't know if I agree with that.

But.

Huh.

I said I don't know if I agree with that point.

But well how.

If there's.

If there's no God and there's nothing, there's no immaterial.

How.

How would we have the image things like laws of logic, morality, the ability to reason.

I think you're conflating the two that not believing God means you don't believe in anything immaterial.

I actually don't know if that's super common, at least some people.

I think it's perfectly acceptable and maybe even relatively normal for people to have a naturalist view, but a natural, a view of the natural world that includes abstract.

Maybe, maybe I'm misunderstanding how you interpret naturalist, but Naturalism is the idea that it's we.

There's just a physical world.

Well, that there's just a natural world, that there's not a mind at the bottom.

I think naturalism and physicalism, there are differences between them.

Okay, but even without a mind, we appeal to absolutes, universal absolutes.

Right.

There's things that we have that are.

Well, I put it in three categories.

Universal, absolute, and immaterial.

Right.

And those would require an absolute, universal, immaterial source.

So if we deny the God of the Bible, then we can't account for the things that we know exist in the world.

Like the example we gave earlier.

Is the act of rape always wrong?

Wrong.

Right.

That's appealing to an absolute that's universal and yet it's immaterial because it's a morality.

So it's all three of those.

So what would make the act of rape always wrong if not the nature of God?

Well, some of it's definitional, like I would say in response to that broader point, I think I agree that, that you could not account for those things if you removed God from your worldview.

But I think there are sometimes, and I don't want to put anything on you, sometimes I take the presuppositional argument sort of to position, hey, this is how we stack this tower.

If you remove our foundation, the whole thing collapses, doesn't it?

And I think, think a different approach is to say, well, those things don't necessarily have to be stacked that way.

Like I do.

I do think in naturalism I can account for logic and morality and immaterial things, albeit it's not in the same way that you would do it under theism.

But I think the, the spectrum or the landscape of possibilities there, I think is maybe wider than is it your view with or without God at the bottom kind of a thing.

So anyway, I know we don't have a ton of time.

Yeah, I know we're at the top of the hour, but I'll say this, and we should probably have you on for.

So we can have a much longer discussion.

But I think the reason, the way at least I approach presuppositionalism is not that I'm saying, hey, this is, this is the tower.

I'm going to use your, your language, right.

This is the tower, and you have to accept my tower.

The way that I see presuppositionalism is to step into the worldview of the other person to say, but your tower is in thin air.

Right.

It's, it's has no Foundation.

Because the foundation of the tower of the.

The.

What I understand of as a naturalist or professing atheist is that there's just a material world and yet they appeal to the immaterial all the time.

Well, and that's what I'm saying.

I don't think is.

Yeah, and that might be different.

Take a very popular example like Platonism or something.

I think someone who's a Platonist would be a naturalist and believe in immaterial forms.

So that's an example of.

Of a relatively mainstream view, not one that I hold personally, but just an example that naturalism and quote unquote materialism or physicalism.

And I'm asking this just so I have a better understanding, and you may not know the answer, so no pressure, but with the example you gave a Platonist, would they hold to absolute and universal immaterial things as well or just imitate?

True.

My short answer is you'd have to ask them.

I think there are.

There are.

I said I wasn't putting you on the spot.

I wasn't trying to trick question with it.

I was, I was.

There's a lot of nuance in a tradition that old, very cursory understanding is there's a realm of immaterial forms.

I think there's some sense even in Platonism, at least some strands of it where there.

Some of those forms kind of ratchet up to the one which is like the sort of ultimate form which I think Christians will probably see some alignment in to some extent.

But anyway, I just meant that as an example, just to say that at least the immaterial piece.

I think naturalists can.

Yeah, no, I mean, we want to.

We don't want to misrepresent people.

People.

Right.

Definitely.

That's one of the things we tried to do here on this show, is to not do that.

But let me, Let me just ask you.

I know we're up.

We're over time and I, I do want to give George a couple minutes because I want to be able to promote some of the things that they're doing.

But let me.

I'm just curious with it to ask you, I mean, with all the, as you're saying, the nuance that there could be with Platonism, naturalism and all these, do you think that it could be possible that some of the nuance is people being challenged with the truths of Scripture and trying to find a way to still hold to the position they're holding to without conceding to what the Bible says?

Sure.

I can't speak for Everyone, I mean, I can speak for myself as well as I know myself.

And to say that I don't think that's.

Like I said, I don't know that I would argue that I have any real qualms with Jesus, for example, or that there's a real like values difference where, oh, I, I don't want to live in a way that I, you know, we might label as Christian or whatever.

I think I'm probably relatively aligned on a lot of those things.

And so, yeah, I can't.

Sure.

I think in any back to the sort of full circle to abductive.

I think in any sort of space of incomplete facts, there's certainly a lot of possibilities, but let me try to navigate that.

And as, as we're talking, I'm remembering now more of the conversation we had in the past.

It was a while ago, relational ontology last time.

Yeah, I think a little bit, but yeah, that rings a bell.

Let me ask this.

You know, go thinking, go jumping off of what George was, was saying.

You grew up in a, in a Christian home is what you had said.

Right.

Y.

And so I'm going to.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you feel free to correct me anywhere you think there needs to be.

Would it be fair to say that you tried Jesus and didn't find it compelling?

Would that be.

Would that be fair?

No, personally, I found it very compelling.

Okay.

Which I think I don't remember your guest name last time.

He's like, you're a bit of a unicorn in his experience of atheists on the Internet, which I know is a rough bunch.

But yeah, personally I, I had an amazing childhood.

I grew up in a great Christian community.

My parents were full time missionaries.

My bingo card of young evangelical missionary kid was very full and happily so was a worship leader for a long time.

I was an elder in a church.

I was, et cetera, et cetera.

Down the line.

Again, it's a long story to sort of go into how the, that kind of gradually got dismantled.

But yeah, I think part of why I come to, from some of these angles, maybe push back on some of those stereotypes which to be fair very often do apply, is because I just at least know in my own case, however unusual my case might be, that wasn't really my or doesn't, at least from my standpoint, feel to be my situation.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, ultimately, ultimately what it comes down to, Landon, is you and I and George, right.

All are going to be accountability, accountable to the God that created Us.

And you know, look, I, I'll give, I'll say that you and George are probably more moral than me because I live with me and know me and I sin a lot.

But the.

Huh.

I said, yeah, you're probably right about George.

We both agree on that one.

But, but the, the thing is, is that it ultimately comes down to like what George was saying earlier in the show.

What do we do with Christ?

Right.

That's really the issue.

You know, if when we realize that God Almighty became a man to die in our place, we're forced with one of two decisions.

We either accept that.

We know that to be true, accept that, or we reject it.

And ultimately it becomes an issue of pride.

Right?

I mean, you can kind of describe it different ways, but ultimately it comes down to pride.

It's either we want to live life on our own way or we want to pay for our own sins, or we want to have control over our life.

But ultimately it comes down to.

It's either we're going to submit to God or try to live our own way.

We're either going to, as George would say, have a relationship with him because of what he's done to make a way of that relationship, or we're going to shut that door saying, no, you're going to accept me on my standard, on my way.

And that, I think, really becomes the ultimate issue.

All the, all the arguments and evidence we could, we can go back and forth on, but ultimately the real issue is you and I have a sin problem.

Maybe not George so much as.

As you and I, but he, he still has one.

But not as bad.

Right.

But ultimately that's the real issue.

It's.

You and I don't have an evidence problem.

We have a sin problem and we.

Don't like that evidence problem.

I understand that your theology says otherwise.

I guess what I would try to do is just advocate for the at least potential existence of non resistant.

No, no, no.

Which is totally fine.

Yeah, you're, as I remember from our last conversation, you're, you are not, you know, argumentative.

And, and you, you were, I think I had said you were like genuinely asking questions.

And I think I said to you back then is.

Yeah, huh.

I said, I'm glad I came off that way.

Yeah, I hope.

I, I mean, I think after that one I said, hey, let's, let's get y.

For a fuller discussion or at least contact me so we could, we could talk more.

But yeah, I think, I think the issue is, is like, and I don't Know, if I asked you this last time, and I'm going to, I do have to cap it, because I know I'm holding George.

But you're saying you think you have an evidence problem.

What evidence do you think would convince you to your satisfaction?

I mean, I could think of hypothetical things.

I mean, I think there are maybe areas in which the world would need to be different or there need to be some kind of explanation for why things are a certain way that would somehow connect the dots for me to why Christianity is an explanation for some of those.

So, I mean, I don't know that we choose what.

What convinces us on some level, but I think there is, in principle at least, evidence that would convince me.

I just have not come across the cumulative case, at least that has.

But, but don't you, I mean, if, if you can't quantify what that would be, don't you think that, you know, or let me ask you as a question.

Do you think that if I gave evidence that you would just move the goalpost possibly and say, well, that's not convincing enough.

Give me more.

Now I need this or that.

I mean, well, I think I, I could have reasons why certain bits of evidence are not convincing, or I think there's a better explanation for them.

And I understand that may hold the perception of resistance of some kind, but I, I mean, what would convince you is like a pretty broad.

Like if I asked you what would convince you that God's not real?

It's a pretty broad landscape of possibility.

You could think of hypotheticals, you know, like the moon splits open and this other God comes out and says, you know, you could think of some fantastical story.

I think.

Best I can say is speak for myself.

I do have to go.

But I feel that I'm genuine in my assessment as well as I can.

Landon, I would have one thing that would convince me that God is not real.

If they found Jesus body, I'd be convinced.

How would you know it was Jesus body?

If you were convinced it was Jesus body, that would.

Yep, there you go.

Because, I mean, apropos the same question to whatever evidence would convince you, how would you know that that thing is even a thing?

But all that aside, there are plenty of things that would totally crumble the Christian worldview.

I mean, if they come across archaeological evidence, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, of a different set of documents that totally contradict the Bible, okay, I'd be convinced.

If they came across evidence that the Bible was manufactured or there are.

Things.

In the Bible that were stated out of order in terms of history.

Like, kind of like how you have steel swords in the Book of Mormon.

So steel swords at a time in America where steel is not even a technology invented in world history yet.

If there were things like that, there would be plenty of things.

Even the names in the Bible.

There was a study done by a guy, Dr. Peters, he wrote a book.

Basically he studied all the names of ancient Middle east during the timeframe that Jesus was living and found that the most common names in the Bible were the most common names in the ossuaries for the dead people of that whole century.

There's a lot of ways that I've been convinced that I could have been convinced the other way, because every evidence for my worldview could have been an evidence against my worldview.

There are critics of the worldview nonetheless, but I would say there's no substantial evidence.

And as a matter of fact, you find the most secular atheists in Israel using the Bible as a map for where to dig.

So even the guys who don't believe it, who are naturalists would say, yeah, but it's a very accurate record of, of hints on where to go to find stuff in Israel.

And so again, I'm not convinced by the lack of evidence.

You're probably not convinced by the evidence.

What I would say is there's one thing left off your bingo card that's really important, which I never heard you say, and maybe you did, but I never heard you say you actually know Jesus Christ.

That was on the bingo card.

You know him.

We could go into the nuance of that.

But no, I mean, do you have a relationship with him right now?

No, until you don't know him.

Currently, no.

Because I do not believe that the Jesus you're talking about.

Well, first John chapter one says if you don't know him, you never knew him.

Sure, yeah.

I'm not giving you my opinion.

I'm telling you what a book that was written 1900 years ago, 2000 years ago says.

I mean, I'm not giving you my opinion on it, I'm just telling you.

I mean, if we're talking about the New Testament worldview, right, we got to use the text, we got to use the evidence, the codex that, you know, the whole worldview is based on.

And the codex says if you don't know him, you never did.

They went out front us because they were never of us.

So that's why I think there's a big relationship question left open on your bingo card there.

That and I love the way you put It.

Because this is a fascinating thing and I'm not fascinated in the sense of like a scientific experiment because to me you're a lot more than that.

You're a person.

You have a soul.

God created you for a purpose.

You're looking for answers.

You're valuable to God.

Jesus died for you.

Jesus loves you.

And you've heard all these things before, but for me, I really believe it's true.

So the way I'm going to approach this is, well, I ought to have a love for Landon and I ought to take time for Landon and I ought to expose Landon to as much biblical truth as possible, even if he already knows it but doesn't know it.

If that makes sense.

And so, so sorry, Andrew, I have to go.

I want to, man, I want to.

Even if I just closing remarks to each other.

But I appreciate.

Yeah, George, this is what always happens is we get.

We get this.

Someone comes in in the last half hour with a great conversation.

I don't know why everyone waits the last half hour is why we end up going long.

Landon, we do appreciate you coming in.

Let me just say one thing for Landon and for anyone else.

If you do want to get a hold of us, let me put up our email.

Landon, if you get a hold of me, we could try to, you know, talk offline and we can have you on if you want to be on air.

But I, you know, be perfectly fine.

Talking off is just contact me at Infofe Bible.

Infofe Bible.

It's a way to get a hold of us.

And this is an important question, Landon, one that we should, should sit down and talk over.

You know, I'm not sure where he lives at, but you know, from in that area, I will be happy buy you dinner so we can sit and talk over and discuss this.

But yeah, I mean, one of the things George and I want to build for folks know a little bit more about the exchange.

You know, one of the things is, you know, you, you brought up two interesting things that people may not pick up on and that was what.

What Dr. Peters had done with the names because there were claims that they found the body of Jesus because it said Jesus, the son of Joseph and Mary, the brother of Jude.

And so they were like, see, they found Ashwary and this must be the body of Jesus.

Until they realized that those are like the most common names, like Mary.

I think, I think one seventh of all the women were named Mary and Joseph was like one tenth of all the men.

And Jude was like, you know, so, so they're very, very common names so it wasn't so unusual.

And, and that's one of the things we do have as, as, as I was trying to address with Landon.

Like we, we can make a, every single system has a life saving device.

And that's becomes the problem I think with, with some when we, when we're looking for evidence.

That's the thing.

That's why I say just read the scripture.

And this is kind of what George was saying.

Read the scripture and see what it says is true instead of trying to find a way to save the system against it.

You see, see if what it says is true.

But I know we're over time.

Let me, let me.

George, I want you to share for folks you've kind of given an overview of what the, the exchange is.

I, I've, I've given it before.

Let me put it up on, on the the there for folks it's the exchange message.org is the website.

Exchange message.org want you guys to go check that out.

See what they have.

Maybe you know, maybe land.

Brandon, you can contact us.

I'll put you in touch with George.

We can find someone that can get together with the exchange program with you in your area.

Maybe we can find a church that's that where they know it and they can sit down with you, you know but it's something where I think folks if this is a, this is something you should consider for your church is the exchange.

And so go to the exchangemessage.org George, tell folks just I know we're overtime but I want you to be able to give some time folks to say what can they expect out of the program you guys or really Jeff has put together.

How does that work within the confines of a church?

And you know, how could people get involved?

So there's a couple things we offer to churches and Christians around the world.

Number one is our books.

Our resources are tools giving the exchange.

That's how to engage people with the gospel in relationship.

There's the exchange itself.

There's the exchange leaders Bible study which you would use the leader's guide which has some marginal notes in you, some prompts as a leader person leading the discussion.

And then the little book is the one you give your friend who doesn't know Jesus Christ as savior.

You go through it very very easy to follow, self explanatory.

It's inductive meaning you ask questions, come to conclusions.

You read a scripture, ask questions, come to conclusions and that's what you do repeatedly for all four Chapters, and then you bring somebody to a point of decision.

Then we have the exchange seminar.

We do travel to churches.

Jeff and Anna travel to churches.

That's what they do.

That's what they spend their time on.

He's getting ready to leave tomorrow on a flight.

Flight.

So he's going to be traveling and he goes in and trains a church over the weekend on those two aspects, relationship and how to give the gospel.

And so that's something you're interested in, right?

On the homepage of exchangemessage.org, there's something called book a discovery call.

That's something you could share with your pastor.

We sit down with you, we find out what your church's needs are.

We look at Jeff's schedule.

He's usually about a year, year and a half out.

So you just have to kind of get that ball rolling sooner.

We.

We also offer the courses.

We can't have Jeff in person for any reason.

Schedule whatever, or you feel like, oh, our church is small.

We're not sure who would show up.

We have something for that kind of scenario as well, which is the exchange online.

You can go over to Resources on the navigation bar for the website and scroll down to Exchange Online.

Click on that and it takes you to a whole page about how to get our online course.

And it's 19 hours of video and there's quizzes and all sorts of cool things in that course that you can engage in.

We have tracts on our website.

Our whole ministry is run by donation.

We pretty much sell everything at cost.

And so it pays for cost and shipping and the logistics of everything.

We do that on purpose so that there's never the excuse of, oh, this book is 20 bucks.

For a long time, the book book was $5.

It went up to $5.50 because the cost of paper went up and some other shipping costs went up.

But we show all the cost transparently when you check out on your cart.

So, you know, we try to do everything we can to make it really feasible for everybody to access the materials.

If it's ever a problem for you financially, my email is georgechangemessage.org reach out to me.

We will help you.

Okay.

Money is not the problem for God, but our donors really make that possible.

So I always say thank you to them every chance I get.

That's everything we offer as a ministry.

There's ideas or something else you want us to do.

There's the Gospel Talks podcast, which is part of Andrew's community.

That's a tremendous resource we have a YouTube channel, Facebook, Instagram, all that good stuff.

X.

We have articles, lots of blog articles from our exchange trainer on our website.

But that's pretty much a wrap for me.

Andrew.

Yeah.

Taking a note out of the way, I end the rap report saying that's a wrap.

But yeah, Christian podcast me is where you can find out about the podcast.

Both that George and I do.

So encourage you to check that out.

I want to thank George for coming on.

I thank Landon for coming on.

On.

I think that I, I hope we can have more discussions with Landon.

And I will say for folks, just a couple things.

One real quick, after we got the super chat, Melissa had said, hey, super nice, nice super chat.

You can always directly give to striving fraternity on the website, which I do monthly.

So we do thank you for that, Melissa.

She does give.

And, and I'm just gonna say it doesn't have to be a big amount.

We are grateful no matter what the amount because as George said, it allows us to do.

Our donors are what allows us to go into churches that can't afford to have us fly out there.

Georgia says thank you, Andrew and George, edifying talk.

Have a good night.

God bless.

So I do want to thank you.

I want to thank George for coming on.

I think it's helpful for folks to find different ways how whatever God is going to use in a, in a God glorifying way to share the gospel that is, is needed.

You know, not everyone is argumentative.

You got to see Landon.

It was, I mean, Landon is a very nice guy that comes in.

He disagrees.

Okay.

Did he seem like argumentative with you?

I didn't just take it that way.

Right.

He's the type of person I think that we could probably sit for two hours and talk with and enjoy the conversation, hopefully get somewhere.

I don't know.

Right.

But, but you know, we have a lot of fears because what we think is going to be the stereotypical professing atheist and they're going to yell at us.

And it's not always the case.

In fact, I find it's usually not the case typically.

And so some of the fears we have in our head are there.

They're on the Internet.

And so now I do got to say, just a programming note, there will be no show next week because I'll be in the air.

I'm headed out to Dallas next week for the Christian Business Makers conference.

So I will be there Tuesday through Thursday.

So Thursday night I will be flying, flying back from Dallas and therefore there'll be no show.

But on the 16th, Adam Parker from Bold Apologia, one of the other podcasts in the Christian podcast community, will be coming on.

He was on my Rap Report podcast as well.

So go take a listen to that beforehand.

We talked about Bill Johnson from Bethel.

Now, the reason Adam is, I wanted to talk with Adam is because Adam's actually a, a continuationist.

Adam is someone who believes in the gifts.

Where I would be a cessationist.

I believe they, that certain gifts ceased.

But a lot of people think like only people that believe gifts ceased would it would go after Bill Johnson.

Well, Adam is someone who believes in the continuation of gifts, but sees, sees a lot of issues with the theology of Bethel and Bill Johnson from his books.

He's been doing a series on his podcast Bold Apologia.

And I just thought the way he was handling it was, I thought, very well balanced.

And so we're going to talk about that.

So we had him on the, on the Rap Report.

So it gives you guys an opportunity if you have questions, maybe you agree with Bill Johnson, maybe you disagree, whatever.

It'd be a good opportunity for you to talk with Adam directly on Apologex Live.

That's going to be on April, April 16th.

So no show next week.

April 16th is the next show.

Until then, remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

And we'll see you next time.

Have a great night.