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Fonzo Martinez is the boys basketball head coach at McKinney Christian Academy, where he led the Mustangs to a Texas association of Private and Parochial Schools 4A state championship in 2026.

With over a decade of coaching experience, including five years at McKinney Christian, Martinez is the winningest coach in school history.

Fonzo previously served as the head coach at Flower Mound Corom Deo, where he also became the winningest coach in that school's history.

Over his career, he has helped lead teams to five district championships, four state tournament appearances and two state titles.

He has been honored as Taps District Coach of the Year three times and the Texas association of Basketball Coaches Coach of the Year twice.

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Be prepared to jot down some notes as you listen to this episode with Fonzo Martinez, boys basketball head coach at McKinney Christian Academy in the state of Texas.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Fonzo Martinez, head boys basketball coach at McKinney Christian Academy.

Fonzo, welcome in, man.

Hey, Mike, thanks for having me on, man.

Really appreciate it.

Absolutely excited to have you on.

Looking forward to diving into all the interesting things that you've been able to do in your career.

Let's start by going back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me about your first introduction to the game of basketball.

What made you fall in love with it?

What are some of your earliest memories of the game?

Well, for me, I guess you could say I grew up a little old school.

I grew up in the inner city of Dallas and there was always a park by our apartment complex or wherever we lived.

And man, it was just like, you don't need a whole lot of, a whole lot of money.

You don't need a personal trainer or anything like that.

You can just go ride your bike or walk down the street and you can call next and you can kind of earn your respect.

And so I loved it, man.

I grew up playing at the park my whole life.

We lived in Dallas for a long period of time.

We moved to Amarillo, so a small town in Texas.

And I remember we lived by this park called Memorial park.

And then the light stayed on there till 2am and that's when I was told I had to come home was when the lights came off.

And then we would stay out there and we just hoop all day.

Man, I just fell in love with it at a really early age.

What's your favorite memory of pickup basketball from that era of your life?

Yeah, so favorite.

One of my favorite memories, you know, growing up as a kid and playing pickup, I would say, is at the park that I used to go to, they had, they had multiple courts.

I think if I remember correctly, it was three courts.

And it was like the first two courts were all the young guys just playing around, middle school, high school, everything like that.

But that last court was kind of like the OGs, it was the old guys.

And it was also like some high school guys, if you were really good and defense calls fouls, you do not call Foul.

And you got to play good, and you got to play well, and guys would get upset if, you know, you didn't hold your own.

And I was always a little intimidated to go onto that main court.

And I remember I was like, on the second court, and I was just shooting it.

I could always shoot really good at an early age.

And this guy that was older was like, hey, hey, man, you want to come over here and play?

We need one.

And I'm like, me and my dad's like, go over there.

You know, like, this is your chance.

And, man, I went over there, and I was like, all right.

I got to play really hard.

I got to rebound the ball.

Don't turn it over.

Don't shoot bad shots.

That was, like, my mindset.

And I remember I was, like, making every shot that I took, and my dad was happy.

And, man, like, that little moment, you know, it's kind of like your first time getting to play with the older guys and kind of feeling accepted.

And it was like, after that, it was kind of cool because as I got older, they were like, hey, you come over here and play.

And I'm like, yeah, like, I kind of.

I kind of got accepted now on the big court.

So that.

That was probably one of my favorite memories.

Yeah, it's very cool when you get an opportunity.

It's amazing how so many parks back in the day were like that.

If you had multiple courts, you had the court.

It was kind of like you said, the young guys or, you know, players that weren't very good, and then you had the court where everybody knew that's where the players were going to be, right?

And that's where you had to try to earn your way up.

And I. I've told this story a couple times on the pod here, but when I was a kid, maybe I 13, 14 years old, I always used to try to go because I wanted to play on that court just like you, right?

So I would go early so I could get in that first game.

Maybe the nine guys are there, and like, hey, we'll take Mike.

He's.

You know, we'll take that little guy.

We'll get it.

We'll take him on our team.

And then I.

And then I wait around until the very end.

So maybe there's like, eight, nine, ten guys straggling at the end.

Yeah, I'll play that.

I'll play that last game before everybody goes home.

And so at least you could get yourself on the court that way.

And then people get to know you, and eventually, as you said you kind of earn your stripes and get there.

Certainly different from the way that the players that you coach today grow up in the game.

I don't know what the playground culture looks like in the Dallas area, but like here in Cleveland, at least it's not nearly what it was.

Where when I was a kid, you could kind of drive around, you could find this court, you could find this gym, you could find this playground wherever where people are playing.

Now, it's really difficult.

If you're even a good high school player, it's difficult to find a really good pickup game to play in.

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm with you.

It's like, if you drive by the park, it's kind of.

It's kind of sad, but it's like there's nobody out there.

Nobody's.

Nobody's hitting the lights like they used to back in the day, trying to.

Man, I remember there was one time the cops got called because the lights went out, but everybody was having really good games, and the old heads kind of pulled their trucks up and they put the headlights on, and it's like, you don't want to go home.

You just want to keep pooping.

It's like those.

Those days don't happen anymore, right?

It's like everybody's training with their personal trainer.

You're playing a.

You play so many games that it's just like pickup is a little bit kind of outdated.

And now it's like if you go to a gym like A LA Fitness or Lifetime, it's like you walk in there at least years ago when I used to go, and it's like all year is just a bunch of guys arguing.

And it's just.

It's not the same like it was back in the day where it was.

It was kind of where you earned your respect, you know?

Definitely.

There's no doubt about that.

I think now you just kind of walk in and like you said, you just.

You just play, and anybody can be in the game.

When I was a kid, I always had a rule.

I wouldn't play in games with guys that had jeans on, running shoes, or baseball hats.

And now I defy you to find many games that don't have one of those things of somebody playing.

It's crazy.

So when you think about your development as a player, would you say then that you spent the majority of your time playing the game and that's how you improved, or were you also balancing that out with getting on a court by yourself and working on your game?

How did you Balance those two things out.

Growing up as a.

As a high school player, let's say.

Yeah, no, I mean, I played a lot at an early age.

The.

The crazy thing is I was going to play AAU ball going into my senior year, had a pretty traumatic injury that prevented me from doing that.

So it's like I never even played a ball.

You know, I just always played pickup and then school ball.

I never really had a personal trainer when I got.

When I got good in high school, you know, I. I started having, you know, coaches and people that wanted to work with me.

But.

And that wasn't until probably my freshman or sophomore year of high school.

So for me, it was like, hey, I just want to always find a place where I'm playing with people that are better than me.

And I try to pick up moves and different things that I would see guys do.

And then I was always a gym rat.

So when I probably.

I'd say probably my freshman year of high school, when I started getting, like, really good coaching as some good high school coaches and stuff like that, it was like I really started to break down the game.

And I was like, okay, I got good athleticism, but I'm not elite.

So I'm going to start working on my ability to shoot my footwork.

I'm going to be really fundamentally sound.

And that's probably when my game took up probably a bigger jump.

I played football growing up.

You live in Texas, you play football.

And man, I loved football.

And I would say football may have even been my favorite sport when I was a kid.

And then probably maybe sophomore, junior year of high school, I started to just get a little better at basketball.

And I was like, all right, that's probably what I'm going to choose to play and try to play it at the college level.

How did you come up with what you were doing when you were shooting and working on your game by yourself?

So I always say, for me, again, pre YouTube, pre Internet, I did kind of the same workout every day.

I had one that I did when I was by myself then if I was lucky enough to have a friend that wanted to shoot with me, then I had a workout that we'd rebound for each other, play some one on one, that kind of stuff.

But now there's such variety in the drills and kind of what kids can do.

I always look at it.

I'm like, man, I was not creative at all.

I just did the same thing over and over and over again.

So what was it like for you in terms of working out how did you come up with the ideas for what you were going to actually work on and how intentional were you with what you were doing?

Yeah, no, I definitely would try to always get into the gym.

And it was like, okay.

After I master one thing, it's like, okay, how are you going to improve your shooting range or how are you going to improve your footwork?

Like, I was already, I was already doing box drill even when I was little.

I was like, man, I found it on online or, or somewhere, like on a DVD at the time.

I guess that's what we watched back then.

And I was like, okay, how can I be creative and come up with different counters and moves?

So every time I get to this spot, I'm difficult to guard, man.

I even remember, like two things I used to do to really work on my shooting.

Touch and everything like that.

I'd get on the side of the backboard and I'd shoot and I would say I'd have to shoot and I'd have to hit the top of the backboard and it has to bounce on the backboard at least three times.

So that means I'm shooting it and it's just dropping in that basket.

Like, great touch.

And then another one I came up with was like, all right, we, we had a heavy ball that I would use for ball handling sometimes.

And I'm like, I got the idea.

Okay, well, I want to increase my range.

Let me, let me shoot form shots with a heavy ball and then let me go back and shoot threes like five feet off the line and it would help me not change my form.

So when you think about your early career, and you mentioned just a few minutes ago about once you started to get good coaching, right?

So when you think about those coaches that you had in middle school, high school, what's something that you took from one of those coaches that you carried with you that you still feel like is an important part of who you are as a coach today?

One of the things I say I learned definitely was my head high school coach my last two years coach, Herb Evans.

He was, he was a great coach, a good man, a really good leader for us, and he was very demanding and he was a no nonsense type of guy.

And I think for me, transferring in there and kind of having an idea that, hey, I'm the best player, so kind of other guys serve me and I'm kind of, I'm kind of the guy and I get kind of all the shine and the recognition.

I was able to learn a lot from him.

About what being the best player actually really looks like and what it should look like in that to lead, you have to serve, and that great teams, usually, if you're the leading score, you're a guy that celebrates other people's success, and you realize that you can't get anywhere without those other four guys on the court with you.

And so for me, it was like, I had a really good opportunity to learn.

Like, hey, no person is bigger than the team, and you can't make it about yourself.

You got to make it about others.

And so for me, it's like, I've kind of always remembered that.

And, like, hey, you know, no matter who comes in the door, you get really good players.

But one of the first things you got to always remind every guy is that the team has got to come first, you know, so something that I definitely took from that experience, learning it the hard way.

So that's a lesson, obviously, in the moment, right, that you learned as a player.

Now you're reflecting back upon that as a coach.

While you were playing, were you thinking about coaching in any way, shape, or form, or were you completely focused on being a player?

Because what I found, Fonzo, is that people come to coaching in two different ways, right?

There's the kid who's 8 years old, 9 years old.

They're drawing plays in the dirt.

They're scratching stuff on a napkin.

They're trying to lead their teammates.

They're thinking already about being a coach.

They know at some point they want to be a coach.

And then there's other guys who I feel like I fit into this category.

While I was playing, all I cared about was playing.

Like, I wanted to figure out how could I play my best to help my team win.

And everything that I did was focused upon who I was at a player as a player and how that impacted my team and my success.

And I didn't think about it at all as coaching.

And then all of a sudden, when my playing career was over, I'm like, what do you.

Like, where's basketball now?

Let me think about, well, now maybe I'll get to coaching.

So I don't know if one of those paths rings more true for you.

No, I definitely never thought about it playing.

Not in high school.

I literally.

It never crossed my mind.

I had several coaches tell me, like, have you ever thought about coaching?

I feel like you'd make a.

You make a good coach.

And I'm like, no, I don't.

I don't see that in my path at all.

And then when I got to college, man, I. I had a. I had a really rough experience because I had some really traumatic knee injuries, like three reconstructive knee.

Knee surgeries in less than three years.

So when I stopped playing in college, it basketball, I had a really bad taste in my mouth because in my mind I'm like, my career wasn't what I thought it was going to be.

I thought I would be able to do X, Y and Z.

And everything from these injuries just kept going a different direction, it kept going downhill.

So I'm like, I'm never.

I actually said these words were like, I'm never going to coach basketball.

Like, that won't be in my past.

So definitely not something that I thought I was gonna do growing up or anything like that.

But obviously God has some different plans for me and I can't imagine.

I can't imagine doing anything else now.

So tell me about that transition from playing.

Obviously, the injuries play a factor in what you're planning to do prior to the injuries.

Obviously, just like every kid who's playing at the college level, you have dreams of, I'm sure, playing professionally at some point, dreaming about that since you were a kid.

But once you start to see that, hey, that's not going to happen.

What were you originally thinking that maybe you wanted to do as a career before you eventually found your way into coaching?

So kind of just what was the whole genesis of what do you think in it and how do you eventually get to the coaching profession?

Get into coaching?

All right, I'm going to take you on a little bit of a story then.

So, I mean, initially, I. I obviously I love sports, so I'm thinking I do want to do something in sports.

I'm thinking like being a sports analyst.

I remember in high school I was the editor of our newspaper.

We had like a sports paper we would put out every month.

So I really enjoyed writing, I enjoyed media, I enjoyed talking about sports.

I mean, even sitting here talking to you.

And you got it, you got a great podcast.

I'm like, I could have seen myself doing something like that, right?

Just talking to different people about sports, what.

What makes you thrive as an athlete and just picking up on different things.

So that was kind of where I thought I would go.

And then I actually went down a totally different path.

So a lot of people in my family work for the railroad, for Burlington Northern Santa Fe, and working there is a really, really good job.

And right out of college, I was afforded an opportunity to go work for them.

And that quickly turned into Me going to engineer school, became an engineer.

So I actually drove trains for about three or four years, which is a really random thing that a lot of people sometimes don't even know about me.

Like, you drove train.

Like, you know, like, they're thinking like Amtrak or Dart, and I'm like, no, like a Class 1 locomotive engine with like 130 cars.

Like, those are the type of trains I used to drive.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely something in the family, but, you know, it just wasn't for me.

So I found myself going from that job to then I was in corporate America doing sales.

And, man, there was always, like, I felt like good things happening, but there was this emptiness, you know?

And so my wife and I, we had just gotten married at the time, and I'll make this story a little shorter, but basically, man, it was just really like a God thing.

Like, I was just like, I feel like I'm supposed to do something else.

And God had put very specific things in my life and my path put people in my life where they were like, have you considered coaching?

Have you considered coaching?

Feel like you're supposed to coach?

I'm like, man, what is the deal with this, like, coaching thing?

Like, like, am I.

Am I supposed to do this?

Like, this makes no sense.

And so then finally when I got to a place where I was like, okay, I don't think this is like a coincidence.

Like, I think.

I think guys trying to tell me something here.

I'm talking to my wife about it.

I decided to make a huge career change, leave corporate America.

I'm doing sales at the time.

I'm like a regional sales manager at an optics company.

And, you know, things are fine there.

And I'm like, I feel like I'm supposed to do something else.

And.

And I remember thinking it was like the week that I was transitioning.

I get a call from a buddy and he's like.

And we had just become friends.

Now he's one of my best friends at the time.

His name is Emmanuel Satay.

And he calls me.

He's like, hey.

He's like, this is.

He called me or text me, but he's like this super random.

I'm a head high school basketball coach.

We can't coach our guys while they play in leagues in the off season.

Like, would you be interested in doing something part time?

And I'm like, you know what?

I think I'm supposed to say yes to this.

And man, that.

That one, yes.

Turned from doing that a little bit part time.

To then me being offered a full time position at that school.

And it's crazy because, as you know, Mike, like, coaching is a very competitive field.

And so while I had that little part time gig, you could say, right, which was like for two or three months, I remember sending emails to tons of schools just trying to get an interview and.

But I had no experience, obviously, right?

And I mean, I could barely even get a reply.

And so I definitely feel very blessed and thankful that like, that was the beginning of my journey 11 years ago and now, you know, I'm pretty blessed to be a head coach at a really good program, you know, and so I, I certainly don't take people for granted that have definitely been in my path and are the reason why I'm, I am where I am.

What did you love about coaching in that first experience?

What was it like?

You kind of knew, right?

You had this feeling that it was going to work, but what was it about that first experience that made you say, oh, yeah, I've now found the right place.

What did you love about it right away?

1,000% Relationships.

I think the ability to go to work and say, my job is to make sure all of these guys feel super confident, value trust, feel loved and then all like each other and then want to be super competitive for a few hours and, and go at each other, but then be the best friends afterwards and do life together.

I'm like, man, like, that's what makes this sport so great, you know?

So for me, it was like instantly I'm like, yeah, I'm probably going to do this until I'm 70, you know, and I joke even with a few former players that I'm like, hey, when it gets that time where I can't coach anymore as a head coach, I'm definitely going to be sitting in an assistant chair.

But I just love the game, you know, I love going to practice.

I love before practice.

I love seeing the guys at lunch.

I like talking to them.

I like being in the weight room joking around with them.

To me, man, there's, there's nothing better than trying to build that family atmosphere within a team.

Well, let me ask you about the thing that you found out about coaching, that you're like, oh, I'm gonna have to get better at this if I want to be a good coach.

So what was the thing when you got in there and you're like, I love the people, I love the kids, I love the relationship, I love basketball.

I know this is where I'm at, but what did you Think of as you're going through that first month, that first experience of two to three months, and it gets done, and you're like, I got to really study up or I got to figure out this piece of it.

It's an area that I want to try to improve.

What's that growth area that you felt you had after that first experience?

Yeah, I think it's say there's like, two things that stick out to me.

The first thing is I got an opportunity after my first year coaching as an assistant coach to be a head coach.

So I probably wasn't ready.

I definitely wasn't ready for that.

But what I learned is, like, there is a lot more outside of X's and O's that go into running a good program.

And so you're like, okay, I know how to do this, but I don't have a great off season program.

And I'm not great from a standpoint of we don't have an exit interview process and what are we doing in our middle school program?

Program and our feeder stuff, and how are we helping our guys get to college and how are we making ourselves attractive as a program?

Like, there's all these other things that I'm like, whoa, okay.

I didn't even think about.

You know, you're just like, I'm gonna go to practice, I'm gonna coach my guys, and hopefully we'll be successful.

And you're like, it's being organized.

It's working with ads, working with your school.

Can you communicate well with parents?

Because, man, if your parents are really unhappy, it's like, that's going to be a tough situation.

So it's like, you need parents and players to be on board with your vision.

And so the second thing I would say is, man, I was staying up really late and I was a grinder, and I'm like, I'm trying to do everything I can to help this team that I just took over that's never won and become a winner.

And you kind of lose sight a little bit for a second there.

You're like, well, there's also my family, my wife, I got a little one.

So it's like, you got to find that balance of, like, I love the game.

I want to constantly be growing, but I got to make sure, like, I prioritize the thing that's the most important to me in my life, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

That's a challenge for every coach.

I think you never.

You never grow out of that.

It's funny, Fonzo, like, I've had conversations with people both on and off the podcast about just hiring high school coaches.

And I always feel like, man, for somebody who has a family, it's a really, really tough job.

If you're at a certain point with your kids and where they are and if they're involved in activities and that kind of thing, it's really, really difficult.

And there's part of me that's like, man, if I was an AD, I think I'd hire either the 25 year old single person who has no family or the 62 year old retired guy whose family's all gone and wants to just get back into the coaching because the family part of it is just again, I think every coach at every level, I don't care if you're coaching at the high school level, if you're coaching at the college level, obviously the pro level, with all the travel, having a family and coaching is something that you have to be really intentional about.

Trying to figure out how to make sure that both sides of that equation get what they need so that you can have a good and happy team and you can have a good and happy family at your house.

Yeah.

And that's not, that's not, that's not easy to do.

It's not easy to do.

No, absolutely, absolutely.

I want to ask you about that job search for your first quote, real job, right.

You said you're reaching out to literally tens of tens of tens of, if not hundreds of schools, right.

To try to find an opportunity.

So you get that first assistant job.

What do you remember about the interview process for that job?

Well, I didn't realize, first of all I was interviewing because, you know, what kind of happened was I'm hired to come in and be just kind of like a part time seasonal coach and like, hey, it's going to be done.

But for me it was like, it was just genuinely, I was so happy to have an opportunity.

Right.

And what I realized is that, hey, once I was there, I'm thinking, okay, I gotta find now where my full time gig is going to come from.

But what I didn't realize is that, hey, people pay attention.

And the families were really enjoying, you know, the off season program and me coaching their kids and stuff like that.

And they're reaching out to our AD on, on my behalf.

And you know, some of that I didn't, I wasn't even aware of.

And the AD kind of just took me out for lunch one day and he's like, hey man, I, I definitely think like you're, you're made to be a coach, and so we want to bring you on full time, and here's some.

Some ways that it can look like, you know, how do you feel?

I'm like, yes, yes, absolutely.

Like, I don't have another coaching opportunity.

And so his name was Doug Hicks, and just a great guy.

He's a head football coach out here now, and he's always been a football coach, but just I remember him telling me, he was like, you know, if I hired resumes, I wouldn't have hired you.

But he's like, I hire people.

And he's like, I remember just seeing you, talking to you, being around you, and I'm like, this is a guy that can lead young men.

And I'm like, wow, Okay.

I got to remember that when I'm hiring a staff that, you know, I don't get too caught up in, like, an accomplishment or what you've done.

I mean, those things are great, and obviously they matter to an extent, but it's like, who are you at the core?

You know, who are you as a person?

And so, man, I mean, if he didn't.

If he didn't do that, I might have been searching for a while, trying to find my first spot.

All right, so what makes a good assistant coach?

In your mind, what is it, characteristics wise?

When you think back to your experience as an assistant and obviously you've had a couple head coaching jobs, what do you look for in an assistant coach?

What's important?

Man, I think one thing that makes a great assistant is the ability to give the head coach different options and scenarios and things to think about different than what he would do, while at the same time, if the head coach wants to do what he wants to do or, you know, disagrees and wants to do something, that you have the ability to flip that switch quickly.

And, man, you can not just teach it, not just coach it, but the guys feel that, like, you guys are all on the same page, right?

I joke about it's kind of got to be like your marriage, right?

It's like you and your wife, like, y' all may think differently, but when you're talking in front of the kids, you got to all be on the same page, and then you can have a conversation away from them, right?

And I'm like, man, as a coaching staff, if you can all be different, but when it comes to, like, talking to the kids and what we need to do in scenarios, it's like, y' all are all very much aligned, but you can challenge the coach in that way.

And I think that makes a really good assistant, a really good point.

I think I remember back, I spent 13, 14 years as a varsity assistant coach.

That was the majority of my, quote, real coaching career.

And I just remember what we always said as a coaching staff was when the door to the coach's office is closed, we're having discussions, we're talking things out, we're hashing out this idea or that idea, we're bringing different things to the table.

And then when that coach's office door opens back up and we walk out, we're all on the same page, regardless of what disagreements or, you know, differences of opinion we may have had while we're having those conversations in the coach's office.

Once you walk out, it's a united front, right?

With an ad, with a parent, with the players, whoever.

We're all on the same page, regardless of.

We may not have completely agreed on whatever, but when we walk out, we've now agreed that this is what we're going to do.

And obviously that comes from the head coach kind of on the top down after the discussion is had.

But I think you make a great point there.

That that united front, to me, I think, is always one of the most important things that a really good staff and a really good coach, head coach does is.

Is make sure that we have this united front so that everybody's projecting the same thing.

And that builds confidence in players.

Parents have confidence and parents know that, hey, I can't go to this guy and kind of subvert and go around the head coaches back and talk to this assistant.

All that is really, really important.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, me personally, you know, I always.

It's not.

Not like an absolute must, but I. I think I've found myself too, that I have a tendency when I hire a staff, I like having a lot of different types of people.

You know, like I. I have a guy where this was his first year, like coaching on the high school side.

He's really young, he's played college basketball.

He's gonna be a really good coach.

He's coached a year.

So, yes, he has experience, but, you know, he's.

He's just a totally different type of coach, right?

And then I have another guy who we've been blessed to have him the last few years.

He coached in Indiana at Washington High, coached the Zilla brothers.

And he's coached like 42 or 44 years.

So it's like two very different sides of the spectrum.

You know, a, you guys non au guys married guys, non married Guys, you know, And I think, I think that also to me, provides a really cool aspect within the staff because it's like not every person is the same.

So it's like somebody might be a little bit more relatable to one of our guys, but it's like between our whole staff, you're going to have a close relationship with some of the head coach or some of the coaches, if not all of them, in different ways.

That ability to find there's somebody for somebody, right?

There's somebody for everybody on your staff and you can figure out a way to make that work.

That makes complete sense when you think about that first head coaching job and opportunity.

And like you said, you thought you're ready, but you're probably not ready.

I think the standard answer for every coach is right, I had no idea what I was getting myself into.

It looks completely different from the head coaching chair than it does from the assistant coaching chair.

And you laid out some of the things that you hadn't kind of thought about that had nothing to do with coaching your team on the floor.

But there's all these other things that you have to do if you're going to build a program.

So in that first experience, and I know the answer is going to be you haven't completely figured it out even today, but how long into that first experience do you feel like it was before you had a really good handle on a.

How you wanted your teams to play and what you wanted them to look like and then battle kind of all that program building stuff.

How many seasons did it take before you kind of felt like again, I know you're still learning and growing, but how long was it for you to get that kind of in place where you felt comfortable with who you were as a coach?

If that question makes sense.

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

I would say for me, it was like year three.

I probably felt like I had somewhat of a foundation.

Like, okay, there's a ton of areas I gotta improve on.

I haven't even started in this area, but I'm kind of like, okay, I have, I have somewhat of a grasp of.

I know who I am.

I'm not gonna.

I'm not gonna be different.

I'm not trying to be somebody else.

This is how I coach also.

Okay, am I the type of person that we're always gonna play this way, or do we adapt to the players that we have?

And okay, we adapt, but what is that percentage?

I kind of have a 70, 30 rule that, you know, 30% of what we do usually is brand new every year and 70% is like, we've done this before, you know.

And so in some years that may change a little bit.

But yeah, I think it took a few years, probably three years before, okay, we really started to figure it out.

And that was the year we, I think we lost in the regional round.

But man, we had a really good season.

We won 27 games.

It was the most wins we ever had in our school history.

Started to figure out, okay, this is how you really run an off season program.

This is how you develop guys.

But then I think as a head coach, you also need time to put, figure out how to put your assistance and utilize them in the best position possible.

So then I was like, okay, yes, I do a lot of talking, but like, I got to give this guy authority in this area and I got to make sure I'm bringing out the best attributes of him as a coach.

And hey, we got to figure out how we maximize the potential.

We can't change the guys that we have.

So we got to figure out how do we maximize the potential of the guys that we do have.

And so I think that just, that takes a little bit of time to kind of start to, to get into a groove, if that makes sense.

No, it does.

That delegation piece I think is always something that is interesting to hear coaches talk about how they get there, right?

Because most people who are successful in any walk of life, but in coaching, right, when you start out, you feel like I gotta have my hand in every single thing that's happening, right?

Because I know what I want my program to look like.

And when it's your first year, especially when you're a first time head coach, like you don't even know what you can give away yet.

You have no idea.

So consequently, your hands are in everything.

And I've had so many coaches, Fonza, that have talked to me kind of in the same vein of what you're talking about, where at the beginning you're kind of trying to figure yourself out and organize and get what you want to do.

And then eventually you get to the point where you realize I got to take advantage of, there's a reason why I hired this guy on my staff because he's good at X, Y and Z.

And so I got to give him some ownership of X, Y or Z.

And when I do that now I'm getting his expertise.

And it also frees me up to maybe do something in another area or it frees me up to bring my strengths or it frees me up to be.

I have.

Rob Bros. Comes on my podcast all the time, who's the head coach at Bowling Brook in Illinois.

And he and I do things and talk all the time.

And his analogy, I think, is a great one.

He's like, we got a big, giant cruise ship, and he's like, there's all kinds of things going on.

There's chefs and there's this steward, and they're, you know, whatever.

He's like, I'm just in the back with the rudder, and I'm just moving the rudder back and forth, and I gotta steer the ship.

And all this other stuff is going on that I've delegated and hired people to do.

And he's like, that's when my program really took off, when I kind of had the ability to give people what their strengths are and just make sure that the ship is going in the right direction.

I think that's a really good analogy for kind of what you're describing.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I've been blessed.

I got.

I got two coaches.

Two.

Two of my main assistants.

I mean, both of them have been up for assistant coach of the year awards.

One assistant coach of the year.

One's been middle school coach of the year.

So it's.

It's been cool to kind of see the.

The journey that even they've had and how they've grown where I'm like, man, they.

There were good coaches when they came in, but now they're really good coaches, you know?

And it is.

It is.

It is very satisfying, and I think it gives you a lot more peace because you get to kind of like, hey, this coach is running weights today.

Hey, we're going to go work on this.

Hey, we're doing this.

He's got guys over on that end.

And our.

One of my coaches leads our early morning stuff, which is we call Breakfast Club, where guys just come in for an hour before school, just do nothing but shooting.

And it's like, I don't really have to, like, think about every single time, every single thing they're doing, because I'm like, he does really good stuff.

I've seen everything.

I know how he coaches.

And we're just aligned on what a good shot, a great shot looks like and a bad shot.

And so it's like.

It's.

Yeah, it's.

When you get to that place, you're like, okay, now we can start worrying, or I wouldn't say worm.

But we can start concerning ourselves with, like, other things now that make our program Even better.

Which is when you're like, okay, now we're kind of taking things to another level, right?

Absolutely.

You got the checklist, right?

And you might have 50 things on there and you're like, all right, check.

We're up to item number 31.

And we still got these 19 things that we haven't gotten to, but there's all these 31 that now we have.

We have them under control.

So to kind of go along with that visual, what's your method of organizing yourself as a head coach?

So as you're talking about the different things that you want to do, whether it's X's and O's, whether it's culture, whether it's leadership, whether it's dealing with administration, all the things that a head coach has to do.

What's your process for keeping all that organized so that when you need something, you know where to go to find it.

Are you a Google Drive guy?

Are you the three ring binder guy?

Or how do you go about just kind of organizing what you have?

Yeah, no, I would say I am not a three ring binder guy.

I, I keep everything online.

And hey, this is our itinerary for what we're doing in the off season.

These are the things we're supposed to do.

I'm big on checklists for myself, so it's like, hey, when we meet as a staff, we have meeting notes.

I'm also big on prioritizing things because I feel like as, you know, coach, it's like there's so many good things you can do every single day in the off season.

But it's like you gotta, you gotta make sure you're doing the ones that are the most important.

So we try to prioritize.

Hey, okay, we meet before every season, so we meet before the spring, then we meet before the summer, and we're meeting a ton throughout that.

But we have these larger scaled meetings where we talk about, like, what is going to be our priority, who's going to kind of let that be their domain, who's going to run this, how are we functioning together?

This is where this coach is going to be, this is where I'm going to be.

And now let's continue to talk through that as we, as we move forward.

And hey, what do we think?

You know, this summer we all do a TABC showcase, but outside of that it's like, are we doing team camp?

Are we going to summer leagues?

Like, what do we want for our guys?

How are we working with them with their AAU teams?

So there's all these things, I think, I think now we've been doing it, I've been doing it for a while, where it's like, I know before every season comes up, spring, summer, fall, before we even get into actual season, that it's like we kind of know the things that we need to figure out every single time before going into that,.

You know, easy, right?

In today's world, there's a million things you could chase, right?

You could look at something on social media and see this, and hey, this coach is doing that.

Hey, I'd like to try that.

Or here's this new event we could go to.

Or there's this.

And to your point, I think really sitting down and being able to prioritize what's important as a staff makes sense that that's kind of the starting point, right?

That's the building block.

You got to understand, well, this is what's most important.

And then you take it and you build out the details beyond that, like, here's what we got to do, then we take the steps.

How do we figure out what we're going to do and how we're going to do it?

It makes complete sense in terms of keeping yourself organized and figuring out again, how to run a program.

Tell me a little bit about the opportunity at McKinney Christian when you take that job.

What is it that made the place special, that made you think, hey, this is somewhere where I think I can build the kind of program which obviously you've been able to build over the last few years?

Yeah, well, for me, I would say it was, it was actually relationship.

I had a really good relationship with a guy named James Wheeler.

He was our ad.

He's now like a head of school principal out at a private school, Trinity out in Georgia.

But him and I just had a really good relationship.

And so I was kind of in a, in a weird phase of coaching where I was like, okay, I think my time's coming to an end.

At my first school, I was having some opportunities to coach at the college level and I was like, maybe that's what I want to do.

You know, you're trying to figure all that out because I'm much younger at the time.

And you know, I think as a coach, you also think, okay, well I have some success.

So maybe that's, that's just the natural progression which now I've kind of self reflected and I'm like, man, I really actually love high school a lot.

But I had one specific opportunity that I thought, okay, I'M maybe gonna move forward with this.

And then Covid hit, and it was like, when Covid hit, there was just so much uncertainty, like, with finances, with school situations, everything like that, where I was like, I just don't think, like, those jobs, they just come with a lot of question marks, right?

And I don't feel like I can do that to my family and move somewhere, But I already knew I'm kind of, like, leaving my school.

And so I'm like, man, what does that look like?

And so McKinney Christian was like, man, we'd love for you to come here.

And my.

The relationship I had with James, he was like, hey, you know, I want to.

I want to build this program, and I'd love to build it with you.

And here's what we think that can look like.

And he was becoming the head coach at the time, and so he's like, hey, you know, I mean, it would be like an associate type of head coach.

Like, you know, we really value what you bring.

And I knew that, and we had a good relationship.

But in my mind, I'm like, I'm leaving a school that we just made the state tournament, and I'm a head coach, and I'm going to another school that, you know, didn't even have 10 wins that year before, and I'm going to be an assistant coach.

I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know.

Is this.

Is this the right move?

You know?

And.

But, man, the more I just kept talking to the school and the AD at the time, Judy Collins, she was a really great person.

And my wife always wanted to move to McKinney.

It was just like, too many things made sense.

And the only thing that didn't make sense was they're not good at basketball.

And am I willing to be an assistant for maybe a year or so?

And if I want to take over the program, then I can do that.

So, yeah, man, I said, you know what?

Let's take the leap of faith.

One thing that I figured out I've enjoyed doing as a coach is building a program.

I think there's something fun about kind of being able to establish a new culture, a new standard.

And it's like, it's a little easier if they weren't winning before, because it's like, well, what was.

What we're doing before wasn't working.

You know, I think it would be hard to come into a place where it's like, they're winning a lot.

And it's like, hey, are you.

Are you gonna Keep doing that or because if you change it up and we're not winning, it's like, it's a little bit more on you.

So.

So, yeah, that was kind of my situation, and I walked into it, and then I was like, okay, this is where I really want to be.

I want to stay long term.

And.

And James was like, all right, man, it's time for you to.

Then.

Then here's the keys to the car.

It's your program.

You take it over, and it's.

It's been a fun ride ever since.

So let's get into the building part of it.

And I know that a key word that you've talked about over and over again is relationships.

And obviously building a program, that's clearly where it starts.

You got to have a relationship with your players.

You got to have a good relationship with families, with your school.

So just tell me about how you go about.

Let's start with the players.

How do you build relationships with players?

How much of it is informal?

How much of it is formal?

What's the process?

How do you think about that in terms of building the relationship with the kids who are part of your program?

Yeah, I think you have to be very intentional.

Mapping out.

So we do that.

Player agreements, culture, building stuff, leadership days.

Like, literally map it out.

What does it look like on a yearly basis, on a monthly basis, on a weekly basis, and then even a daily basis.

I think it's easy to say the word culture.

I think it's easy to say, like, we're relationship driven and.

And we care about these things.

But it's like, okay, but it's more than just a conversation.

Are you being intentional?

What are you doing off the court?

How are you talking to guys on a daily basis to make sure it's like you guys are having, like, a deeper level and an impact, you know, on the.

It's.

It's important that it's like, you find those ways to be very intentional.

So, like, we preach, like, just a bunch of different things.

Like, we say, like, man, we have an open door policy.

So it's like, hey, we want our guys to come in while they're at lunch.

Like, my office is in the gym.

And it's like, hey, we want guys to stop by there and just.

Just talk about life.

You know what I mean?

Um, and it's like, we do.

I have a thing where it's like, we try to eat after a game, even if it's just picking up chick fil a cane, something real quick.

But we really want the guys to all ride back with us, share something, you know, quick meal, spend time together.

And it's like, win or lose, that way they know the relationship is not dependent on the result that we have as a team.

You know what I mean?

And so it's like you're trying to find all these creative things that you can do to make sure these guys know that you love and you care about them.

You know, how do you take a program that hasn't won and help to instill the winning attitude before the actual wins on the scoreboard come?

Because one of the things I think that's difficult when you take over a losing program is obviously a new coach comes in and starts talking about, hey, this is the way we're going to do it.

This is what I believe.

I'm building the relationships with players.

But at the same time, sometimes maybe you just don't have the talent or it takes time to kind of build that culture.

And so maybe you don't win as much initially out of the gate as you'd like to.

And yet you still got to get your guys to buy into what it is that you're trying to do for the long term.

So how do you think about sort of changing the mindset to a winning mindset when you first come in and take over the program?

What does that look like for you?

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

I mean, I think for me now, this is just my.

Been my train of thought, right?

And I. I've always kind of had this.

At least coaching is.

I'm like, if we can have a great culture and we can be great at the things we can control, we're going to be pretty competitive every year.

And then if we have some talent, then we're going to be in the mix of doing something special.

But even if we don't have talent, you're not going to want to play us if we have a great culture and we're great at the things we can control.

So for me, I've learned that as big as the X's and O's are, as big as our defensive scheme and our offensive scheme are all of these things, it's like, it is way more important how hard we play, the mentality that our players have, their approach to practice, their approach to games, than was this guy in the gap properly defensively?

You know, was he in the proper two on one, one on that baseline, full body help?

You know, it's like, no.

Like, yes, that matters.

But if our guys have a great mindset, they play hard through mistakes.

They're super connected.

They talk.

It's like too so.

So much energy and effort, mass mistakes.

And so to answer your question, it's like every time, really focus a lot, every single year.

Not just when, you know, I kind of walked into the program about like, okay, we have to have a standard in non negotiables.

What time do they show up before practice?

How does it look when we practice, when we leave a game?

How do we leave our bench?

How do they carry themselves going to another gym?

How do they carry themselves post practice?

What is the expectation for off season when we're doing a drill?

What does the baseline look like for the guys that are in when we're playing?

What does it look like from a bench perspective?

So then it's like when you put all these things into play and the highest priority things are things that require zero talent and you're able to love on your guys and build relationships.

That's where I think the best player and the worst player feel like they can serve a purpose.

And now all of a sudden you look up and you're like, man, like, we're so connected.

We have so much energy when we play.

It's infectious.

And yeah, we might make some mistakes, but now as we're growing and we're focusing on some of those other things, it's like we revert back to all of these really great habits that win you a lot of games.

You know, it's.

And it's also character building.

So it instills values and characteristics in these guys that will help them after basketball, too.

So with those standards, how do you get that ingrained in the players?

Thinking about just, this is what our bench looks like, this is how hard we play.

This is what we do when we're on the road.

This is what we do when we're in warmups.

This is what our practices look like.

Is that just the daily messaging over and over and over again and pointing out when the standard is being met and then also pointing out when, hey, here's the standard.

I don't think we're meeting it right now.

Is it, Is it.

I don't want to say is it that simple, because I know it's not simple, but, yeah, mostly a matter of just recognizing when it's happening and when it's not happening and then bringing it to the player's attention.

I don't know if I'm simplifying it too much.

Yeah, but how would you characterize that?

I. I think that's part of it.

But I think for us.

So let's look at our week.

So in a daily week, right, let's say we had no games and we're starting the season and we're going six because we go six days a week, right?

So we lift, watch film and practice every day.

So all three of those combined, you're looking at two and a half to three hours.

Because we practice for about an hour and a half.

An hour and 40 minutes.

We're lifting for 40 minutes, we're watching film for like 20ish transition, everything like that, right?

So I think it's like if you spend a ton of time, Mike, let's say with your team on shooting five days a week, they know you really value shooting the ball, right?

It's placed at a very high priority.

Well, I would say if you don't spend time on defense every single day, even though you want to be a great defensive team and you spend a whole lot more time on offense, they're kind of going to be a little bit more offensive minded.

So for us, when it comes to like standard and culture, we're like, it's got to be bigger than us just praising it and saying it and pointing it out.

We got to be intentional about it.

So we have what we call a leadership day every single week.

So imagine a part of practice, a part of weights and a part of film.

We take little portions of all that.

We give a solid 45 minutes, if not a little bit more.

Once a week, on top of a bunch of other stuff we are doing where we're bringing in a speaker or us coaches are speaking.

We even have a thing called me we you, where every player, two at a, two at a time each week, have to give a speech, something they're proud about themselves, something they're proud about the team about.

And then they got to honor one of their teammates.

Well, now we're building guys that know how to communicate effectively and with a purpose.

We've done stuff like bench cam before where we're just watching the bench.

We've done stuff where we've pointed out the 95% rule that Billy Donovan talks about, where he's like, hey, you spend 95% of the time in a game without a basketball.

And we'll show film of guys just without a basketball.

And so we're like, don't let that 5% be the thing that you concern yourself about.

Let it be the 95%.

But it's like when you're able to spend time being intentional in a classroom not just a quick fleeting moment and you saying it off the cuff.

It's like all of a sudden you look at these guys and you're like, they're about all the same things that we're about.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think again, like you said, it goes back to what you talked about earlier, right?

You're setting priorities and then you're being intentional about what those priorities are.

And your guys see it.

And when you just talk about something, you're right.

A lot of times it's easy for that to fall by the wayside.

So they got to see it, they got to see what you're doing, they got to see what you're talking about.

Then they got to do it themselves.

And as you do that, you really start to get things going in the right direction where you want them to be.

Because they see it's value, right?

They see it's valued every day.

And that's where you start to get everybody to be able to buy in.

And as you said, communicating with each other, all that stuff I think is critical when it comes to building the kind of culture that creates a winning environment for, for kids.

Tell me a little bit about, you mentioned earlier about getting parents on your side.

Right.

And working effectively with parents, which for anybody who coaches at the high school level.

Right.

We all hear the horror stories of the reasons why a lot of coaches get out is because of parents.

And so it's always, I think, an interesting conversation just to hear how people think about bringing parents into their program that are going to be supportive of their players, the other players on the team, the coaching staff, and then the program as a whole.

So how do you approach that issue with parents?

You know, we have our ways.

But I will say this.

I think I've been, I've been a little lucky that I've gotten some good parents, if I'm being honest, because I've seen the other side of it.

But we try to, we try to get ahead of it.

You know, we have, we have preseason meetings with all of our families.

You know, I think if I'm being honest, it's been less and less every year because you kind of get to a place where like, kind of blessed, where the program is kind of the program and everybody knows the standard and everybody knows the expectation and you're like, everybody kind of falls into place about what we're supposed to do and who we're supposed to be.

But for us it's like, hey, especially the guys that are newer to the program are coming into high school Making sure we're, we're having those conversations about healthy boundaries.

Like, as a, as a parent, this is what you can expect from us.

And there may be a situation where your son.

This could happen.

He's not playing, you know, how are you going to handle that?

But here's our expectation for how that would look, and if that's not something that, like, you know, you can see yourself, you know, doing, we understand the program may not be the best fit for you, but we do feel like, hey, if, if, if you could buy into what we're doing, then your son is making a.

Become a better basketball player.

And man, from this, you know, And I think too, you gotta, you gotta have, you gotta, you gotta want to hear parents out to a certain extent and talk to them.

It's like, okay, if you have boundaries about what you can't talk to them about, it's like, well, can you take the time to talk to them about some of those other things?

Because as you know, it's like, you know, you have a, if you have a child that's playing a sport, it's like you want to feel like you can trust that coach.

And so.

But I would say, man, I think, as, when the relationship is really good with the players, it also usually is really good with the parents.

You know what I mean?

And so when our guys are like, even if it's a guy that's not playing, but he's like, no, our coaches are awesome.

This team is great.

I'm treated very fairly.

I'm not not getting something I deserve.

Coach has me in the best position to be successful.

It's like, as a parent, well, what do you say to that?

You know, so it's like, we got, we got to make sure those relationships with the players are really, really strong.

And so that's why, you know, we, we, we put a lot of investment into that and the guys doing things with each other.

And like, I talked about those leadership things because every team is going to have a leading score.

How do you make sure the guy that isn't.

But maybe his parents think he could be.

He's not jealous of that guy's success.

Right.

And he, in fact, even celebrates his success.

So it's like making sure those type of things don't bleed into your program.

Yeah, and it's all connected, right?

It's all the connection between the players and the coaches, the players and the players, parents and coaches.

All those relationships kind of form this big web that if the web is healthy and strong, it makes each Piece of it.

Easier for the coach to be able to manage.

And I think that it's clear when you have good relationships, those relationships bleed into other relationships within the program, which makes complete sense.

And then being proactive.

Right.

Reaching out and having those conversations when they're positive, where if there ever is a situation where maybe you have to have a tougher conversation, you've already built those relationships.

Makes the conversation much, much easier.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

It matters a lot.

Yeah.

All right, tell me a little bit.

Let's go.

Let's shift to some basketball stuff.

Tell me a little bit about how you like to run a practice.

What does a practice look like for you?

How do you plan it?

What's that?

What does the daily practice look like for you?

I would say 90% of the time, high intensity, high energy.

Would like to be where the pace is really fast that way.

I'm not big on, like, when I was a young coach, I'm like, man, I'm having these guys run so they can be real conditioned.

And I feel like we were in okay shape.

But it's kind of funny now because I don't think we ever just run in a practice, but we do so many other things that condition us.

And we are.

We are a team that picks up 94ft, and we're phenomenal shape.

And so it's like, I've learned.

And we don't miss on the basketball piece, so I've learned how.

How to get the goal that I want, but in a different way.

But, yeah, I think practice for us, it's like, it looks different every day and every week there might be a few things that we're like, okay, we love these things so much that it's like, to a certain extent, it hits our practice more often than not.

Right.

But a big thing for us is we meet before at the end of every week, and as coaches, we're talking about what do we have to do to get better.

Like, we have all this stuff that we've talked about at the beginning of the season, but as you know, if we're 150 or we're 2 and 13, those things got to start changing, you know?

And so it's like, okay, we were talking as coaches, like, what are the most important things?

Because I don't ever want to go a week of practice where my assistant coach is like, man, I think this was the most crucial thing, and we didn't even touch it.

So it's like we have those meetings, we put all of that down, and then based upon Game plan, who we're playing, what our week looks like.

It's like, okay, when can we really push them?

When does it make sense for that to be in our practice plan?

Are we coming off of a game or.

We, we had a practice the day before, we're a little more rested and so we kind of structure it in that way.

And then I'm big on, I like doing a lot of small sided basketball stuff.

Don't get me wrong, we do, we do some 5v5 stuff every single day and week, but we do a ton of non 5v5 stuff.

I, I'm really big on breaking down like the elements of things.

So I'll give you an example.

Like, like I said, we picked up 94ft about 90% of the season this year and we ran a jump people.

And so a practice for us, it's like we may not from a defensive standpoint play a whole lot of half court defense and we may not even work on a whole lot of like 5v5 full court.

And what we're actually working on is, hey, if a guy, if we make.

How to make a guy, first of all, catch it with one step of momentum going to the sideline and we're just repping that.

So then our guys are really elite and like a shot goes in or a missed shot and it's like somehow we constantly find ourselves influencing the basketball exactly where we want to.

And then how are we really good at back taps, so putting them in certain situations where we get to work on that and how do we pill, switch?

And so it's like we want them to be really, really good in the nuances so our guys can just react.

And so we like to do a lot of disadvantaged stuff, you know, from an offensive and defensive situation.

And that's kind of what it looks like during the week.

And then on our Saturday practice, that's a little bit of our, I guess you could say chiller day.

We throw the music on in the weight room.

We want guys to be having some fun.

We still practice, but we do a good amount of skill development on Saturday.

So now we're working on, hey, this is a specific skill within our offense we want you to do.

And so, and then we end Saturday with recovery because we play a ton of games, I'm sure, as you saw.

So we're like ice bass, you know, whirlpool, that sort of thing and foam rolling, you know, getting the leg sleeves on and, and trying to give their body a good rest that Saturday, Sunday.

So then we can hit the week.

Again, watching the press is the mentality, because I see teams that are really good pressure teams.

Like, just for an example, I went to the Final Four this weekend and I watched Gannon win the Division 2 championship with probably the best full court press that I've seen in a long time.

I just felt like they were everywhere.

They pressured the ball.

They did it from different places, they did it with different kinds of timing.

They forced the ball to places that I'm sure the other team didn't want it to go, and they were just relentless.

And whenever I see that, I always think, like, what's that coach doing to instill in his entire roster that they've got to play it this way?

They got to be this intense.

They got to be able to read and react.

And obviously, you got to be in tremendous shape to be able to get up and down the floor and do that.

But when you think about your pressure defense, what's the key to making sure that everybody on your team can execute it?

How do you teach it?

What does it look like?

Oh, that's a great question.

There's a lot of.

There's a lot of things.

It starts off with the willingness to guard the ball and make it uncomfortable.

So that's the first step, because I've never seen a team be a great full court pressing team that doesn't pressure the heck out of the ball.

So that means you got to have.

You got to be okay with getting beat, right?

You're going to get beat.

And so we.

We have a thing we call 1V, one alley, where we kind of line up the cones and we play a little bit outside the paint tunnel, and we do it often.

And you're required to get a minimum of three turns on every single guy.

And that number goes up throughout the year, and it's exhausting.

And I mean, you learn how to handle the ball through pressure, and we, I mean, we don't let our guys foul.

You've got to be within arm's distance.

You got to be pressuring the ball.

You got to be in his hip.

You got to.

We, you know, we preach a lot of oven mitts, and we preach like we are very big on.

You are constantly influencing it.

If you're not influencing the ball, the ball is influencing you.

And we, we don't care how good of a player you are.

If you average 30 a game, we're sending you one way.

And what way is that?

And.

And just understanding that all the time.

So it's like, we do things like that.

But then I think too, I've kind of.

So the last few years, I'd say the last two years has been the least amount of shell drill I've done in my entire coaching career.

If we ever do shell, we kind of do it a unique way.

Where we usually do 4v4, we may do 5v5, but it's usually 4v4.

And we actually do this thing where we tell the guys they have to give up a straight line drive and we go 50% speed.

And all we're working on is them constantly giving full body help from the proper position.

And our other guys off the ball, we call it being in the window where it's like they're always playing the three on two and the two on one in the perfect spot.

And what it allows them to do is just be really great at anticipating and understanding what, where the help is going to come from.

You know, I'm thinking about a few guys that we actually had this year that when we started playing full court, man to man, I'm like, they never got a deflection ever.

It was either a steal or nothing.

And so I think the skill of getting a deflection is very, very crucial if you're going to play a lot of pressure defense.

So for us, I mean, we have a ton of things that we do, but one of the things that we just love a lot is we'll put guys 3v3 inside the three point line in the arc in the baseline.

If the ball or any part of the offense touches baseline or the arc, it's.

It's a win for the defense, right?

And the defense literally just traps them for 30 straight seconds.

So it's like something so simple as that.

But you're getting in that drill.

When we do it for five minutes, you might get over 50 reps of how to trap the ball, how to use your feet, when.

So, okay, I want to leave the floor, but I don't want to leave it at a certain spot where I go past the offensive player where he can step through me.

I want to leave it early where I have to make him pass fake.

Because our thing is if.

If you make an offensive player pass fake, you're giving a second to your other guys to recover.

So, you know, just trying to do a whole lot of things like that where our guys are like, like, man, these, these guys seem so long and like they're everywhere, you know, and they're used to using their feet.

And we tell guys all the time, a kickball is a Win.

I remember we had a possession this last year.

I kid you not, a kid hit a ball from a sideline, out of bounds, deflected it out, ref resets it.

Inbounder gets ready to throw it in, he kicks it out.

So he's done it twice now, right?

The third time, that player, even though he didn't create a turnover, was thinking, I have to do something different.

Lobs the ball up, our guy runs to the passing lane, we get a steal and a layup.

That was created by the deflections because even though the deflection wasn't a steal, it's making them think, like, I got to do something different because that's not getting through.

Yeah, it's amazing what pressure can do, right?

In terms of just the way a team reacts to it.

And once you've put that pressure on them, it just continues.

The vice just continues to get tighter and tighter and tighter.

And then teams start making mistakes almost preemptively.

Right?

Where it's.

Then it becomes, no longer are we maybe even directly forcing the turnover, but now we're indirectly forcing the turnover because the guy is.

Sees the pressure coming and he's just trying to chuck it to get it out of his hands and he's throwing it all over the gym.

And I think that there's a lot to be said for doing that in a small sided game setting, like you said, because you're maximizing the reps, you're putting people in situations that mimic what they're going to see in a 5 on 5 game, but where they're going to get an opportunity to rep it out more often than they would if you're just going up and down five on five.

And I just think again, whenever I watch teams that are really good, pressing teams in my own mind, going back for as long as I can remember, both as a player and as a coach, I've just always been attracted to teams that want to pressure defense and get up and down the floor.

Right.

Everybody always says they want to play fast.

Well, you got to be in shape to play fast and you got to be willing to defend if you want to play fast.

Those are two things that I think sometimes players, sometimes players forget.

You know, they're like, it's funny.

So my daughter, I was telling her about, she's a sophomore in high school and I was telling her about the Division 2 champ men's championship game that I was at.

And I'm like, Gannon just their press is as good as anything I've seen.

They're just flying up and down the floor and she's like, you know, I, I'd really like, I'd like our team to play that way.

And I just looked at her, I'm like, you better get in better shape than what I saw you play this year.

You know, like, you want to get up and down the floor, you bet.

You got to be able to be willing to move and you got to be willing to play.

Play defense.

And I think that there's.

Sometimes people don't understand how much goes into the chaos that you see in a press, but there's so much more than just what it looks like, just a bunch of dudes flying around.

But as you well know, teaching that system and getting kids in the right places, it takes a lot.

It does.

You got to be so great in the chaos.

You got to be able to live in it.

Because I, I see team.

We went against teams that picked us up, and I'm like, man, you better get out of this.

We're getting the layup and we're getting a wide open shot.

And it's like, that's our thing is like, we can't press team.

And we had some spots this year was like, man, we're tired or we're in foul trouble.

This team is really good.

And they're essentially kind of punched us in the mouth a little bit offensively.

Okay, we got to go to half court, but we're like, we can't lose our identity even in half court.

We're like, the second you get across that line, though, make no mistake, we're getting into.

And you're.

We're pressuring the ball.

But to your point, coach, I think it is a mindset.

It's like also like that blue collar mentality about, like, we're going to play really, really hard.

Okay, I got beat, but as I got beat and my guys getting all of the way rim, I'm still switching off.

One of my favorite turnovers that we get a lot is when a guy beats us off the bounce, he gets to the remedy, kicks it out of one of our guys, it comes off and steals it.

We go the other end and we score.

Because it's just the example of not giving up on a play.

And I think when you got guys that just don't get that, you know, and they, and they're going through it and they're like, hey, we don't give up.

It's like, you know, you might give up something in one possession, but then you're going to have a Lot more success, you know.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think the best pressing teams.

You just described it, right, that you'd like to get a turnover in the backcourt every time out of a trap.

But the reality is that doesn't happen every time.

But you talked about earlier, right, the poke from behind that you're teaching.

How do we run and get that poke from behind?

And then now, here's another scenario you're talking about where a team gets to the rim, they're turning around, kicking it back, and our guys are hustling back and getting into position to get those steals.

And that's what the best pressing teams do, because again, you're not going to turn somebody over in the backcourt every single time.

If you're good, you're going to do it enough, but they're going to beat you sometimes.

And are your guys going to sprint or are they going to jog?

And that's the difference probably, between being an effective pressing team and not.

And that's, again, just instilling the effort and getting guys to understand how hard you have to play in order to be a pressing team.

Yeah, I mean, we, you know, we got to the state championship, and obviously you get there, you're playing a really good team.

And they had a phenomenal big and some really good guards, so we picked them up, pressed them in spots, but we couldn't do it the whole game.

We're like, it's probably not the best scenario for us to win this game.

And this probably isn't a game where we're going to score 80, even though we averaged.

But we talked about it, we're like, hey, great defensive teams know how to be great defensively in multiple areas, shading guys to their weekend, digging from certain spots, taking away the things that they do well.

And I remember I was telling our coaches, man, one of my proudest moments is, man, I don't even know if we pressed them a single possession in the third quarter.

But we were.

We were up one at halftime in the state championship game, and we kind of had some stuff.

We were doing a little bit defensively in the first half, but we felt like we had a few extra things we could bring out in the third quarter that would really put us in a great position.

And so we.

We go to some of those things and, I mean, we held them scoreless in the third quarter of a state championship game.

And it was like, okay, our guys knew, like, it didn't matter if it was half court.

You know, it was.

It's back to that mentality of, like, we really, really love to guard and play defense.

And I think when you press, it's like you kind of start to get that mindset of, like, man, we don't care if our shots are falling.

We're gonna get up and we're gonna guard you, and we're.

We're gonna bring ourselves back into this game, and we're always going to put in ourselves.

Put ourselves in a position to maybe win a ball game just by how the way we play defense.

Yeah.

I've coached teams where sometimes we're not necessarily even a pressing team, but we might come out and press for the first minute of the game just to get the mindset of, like, we're coming out aggressively and we gotta play and we gotta attack, and we're gonna attack defensively, we're gonna attack offensively.

And even though we may not be a 32 minute pressing team, we're going to come out and just establish that mentality.

I think sometimes, again, you got to get to know your team and what buttons to push and all those kinds of things, but there's definitely teams that just need that jumpstart to get them going.

And pressing, I think, is a great way to do that.

If you.

Again, you got to instill the mentality.

Yeah.

Well, I like what you said.

I mean, there's something about when you say, I'm willing to pick you up full court, man.

Yeah.

It doesn't say you're scared of them.

You know, it's like, even if they score, you're at least coming out and saying from position one, like, man, we're here.

We don't feel like you're way better than us.

Like, we could pick you up full court versus you.

You fall back into a two, three zone, and you're just like, hopefully we can rebound.

You know, it's like.

It says something different when it's like, oh, you're right here, you know?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

All right.

I want to ask you one final two part question, Fonzo.

So part one, when you look ahead over the next year or two and you think about what you have coming down the pike, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then second part of the question.

When you think about what you get to do each and every day, what brings you the most joy?

So your biggest challenge?

And then your biggest joy.

Okay, the challenge.

I would say that that one's.

That one's kind of easy.

I was actually talking to my wife about this.

We've been talking and trying to.

Trying to make sure you always keep the main thing.

The main thing, you know, why you got into coaching.

But I think it's like, I've been fortunate enough and blessed in my last coaching position, in my last school that we had some really good success, right?

And at the very end, it's like, okay, we really got this thing rolling.

And now I feel like at my.

My current school, McKinney Christian, we've been even more blessed where it's like been at a much higher level and we've.

We've won two state championships, and it's like every year it's gotten a little bit better and better and better.

And last year we go 38 and 2, and I'm like, man, we'll never do something like that again.

Even though we didn't win it all.

I'm like, I can't believe that happened.

So we graduate every starter.

We have two kids that start for us this year that transferred in.

But I'm like, in my mind, I'm thinking, I don't care if it's two kids that transfer in the start.

It's like losing five starters.

You can't replace that.

But our team was incredibly connected, and we do go from 38 to 2 to 39 and 1.

And the thought goes through my head of constantly, we will not be better next year.

We will not go 40.

You know, there's no scenario where that happens.

I would love to, but that's just not realistic.

And, you know, the ability to win state every single year, unless you're just got talent out of this world, it's like, it just doesn't happen, you know?

And so I think my biggest challenge is for myself and our coaches and our players to, as much as we want the on the court success to not get consumed by that, because I think when you have that, it can start to become your focus and your priority.

And so it's just reminding ourselves daily about, hey, why are we here?

Why do we love this game?

How are we trying to grow?

We can't think about winning there and doing that if we just don't get better today.

So we got to focus on the little things, because people will build you up and awards will happen and things will happen.

And it can get a little bit in your head like, oh my gosh, we're this.

And it's like, no, man, that's not what got us here.

You know, it was that workman's mentality.

It was our culture.

It was your togetherness.

And so let's just.

Let's Just keep it about that.

So I think that's probably going to be my challenge as a coach, is not concerning myself with what has happened the last two years, making sure our players aren't concerned.

I don't know what will be ranked before the season.

Gosh, I hope it's not high.

I hate being ranked high.

Because then you're like, oh, there's no way like this last year we were preseason ranked number one, and I'm like, what?

Like, gosh, I. I want to sneak up on people.

Well, so much for that, you know, And.

And it worked out, but I'm like, you know, I just.

I just think it's like, it.

It becomes increasingly more difficult, so.

Absolutely.

What was the second part?

Biggest joy.

Oh, the biggest joy of coaching or what I see for this next year or so.

Biggest joy.

Just.

Biggest joy.

When you get out of bed in the morning, what brings you the most joy about what you get to do every day?

Oh, man, it's threefold, okay?

It's.

I get to do my.

My lifelong dream now, which I'm realizing my purpose is getting to coach full time.

And I'm like, man, that's awesome.

I got great players, great coaching staff, great school.

So that's an incredible blessing, and I don't take that for granted.

Second thing.

Second most important thing would be my family, the fact that I got an incredible wife, my kids, everything like that.

I mean, my support system is just awesome, and our kids are all under 10, so it's a really fun phase of life.

And the number one thing, Mike, would just be my relationship with the Lord.

You know, I definitely.

It's.

It's shaped and molded who I am.

And I would be lying to you if I said that didn't happen.

I don't think I would have been a very good coach because naturally, I'm very impatient and not always the most selfless person.

So it's.

It's been a.

It's been a really good impact on me.

Shaped a lot who I am and then also how I coach, you know?

And so, man, those three things, I feel.

I feel very blessed that I get to.

I get to do that.

And I remind myself that even when I hear this, the crying and the craziness, I'm like, me and my wife joke.

We're like, you know, sometimes it's so loud, and you just want a little peace and quiet, a little relaxation.

And the second they're with grandparents for one night, we're like, man, it's so quiet.

We miss them.

You know, so it's like you realize how much of a blessing it is.

Yeah, there's no doubt about that, man.

It goes fast.

And yeah, when they're, when they're little and then it's crazy and you're.

You're tired and everything.

It's just.

It all goes.

It all goes quick.

I will.

I will tell you that.

And there's.

There's nothing better.

There's nothing better than your kids.

What age are your kids?

So I have.

My oldest daughter is going to graduate from college this year, and so she's.

She's got a job.

Well, she's got two jobs lined up, so she's going to go to.

She's going to go to Oregon from Ohio for three months this summer to work for the National Park System, and then she's got a job in Boulder, Colorado after that.

So going from Cleveland.

So my wife and I are dealing with like, she's actually going to go and be an adult and live across the country.

So we're figuring that piece of it out.

And my son is a sophomore, plays basketball at Ohio Wesleyan, Division 3.

And then my daughter is a sophomore in high school.

So.

Yeah, Hooper too.

Yeah, she plays too.

Yeah, so she plays to.

My oldest.

My oldest stopped playing when she was in Latin in like ninth grade.

And then the other two.

The other two are still playing.

So.

So yeah, get to be a dad and go watch them play.

And it's.

It's a lot of fun, man.

I appreciate you asking.

And yeah, being.

Being a dad and then trying to do all the basketball stuff too, in the podcast and coaching and everything else that goes into it.

As you well know, we talked about, like, trying to balance all that out is.

Is always.

Is always challenging.

And you want to give the best of what you got to.

To both of those and it's not always the easiest thing to.

Thing to do.

So I think it was well said.

Just kind of how you, how you laid it out in terms of again, what brings you the joy.

Those are obviously the most important things that, that you laid out for sure.

So before we get out, I want to give you a chance to share.

How can people reach out to you?

Find out more about what you're doing.

Email, social media, website, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah, yeah, I, I'm happy to share any nuggets I have.

I certainly don't do everything well, but you can take the stuff I do bad and then not do that.

And I've definitely learned a few things where, you know, I'm always in the business.

I think we joke as coaches, like we love to steal things.

It's like take one thing from this guy.

Take one thing.

Which that's what makes coaching such a brotherhood.

But yeah, happy to share anything.

My email is Fonzo f o n zomartinez935mail.com if anybody ever wants to come to a practice, has a few questions about my journey or I can be some sort of inspiration or encouragement that hey, can happen to anybody.

Even though I'm just a small town high school coach, it's like still I get to do my dream every single day and then man, I don't know what my instagram is.

That's a great question.

But you know you can.

There's not too many Fonzo Martinez, right?

Like type in Fonzo Martinez on IG and you'll find me.

And feel free to DM me if you need anything.

Perfect.

Perfect.

Fonzo, can I thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us?

Really appreciate it.

And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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