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I didn't have that ego saying oh, I know this, I'm better at this.

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And as a coach you got to be coachable and you got to be able to learn.

Nick Haber is in his second season as the girls junior varsity basketball coach at Strongsville High School in the state of Ohio.

He's led the Mustang JV team to back to back winning seasons.

As a young coach, Nick has been focused on learning the fundamentals of coaching while teaching his players the importance of accountability and teamwork.

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Grab your pen and some paper before you listen to this episode with Nick Haber, girls Junior Varsity Basketball Coach at Strongsville High School in the state of Ohio.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's my cleansing here without my co host Jason S tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Nick Haber girls JV basketball coach Strongsville High School here in my hometown.

Nick, welcome to the Hoop Heads.

Papa man.

Hey, Mike, really appreciate me on today and excited to talk some basketball.

Absolutely excited to have you on.

Looking forward to picking your brain about your experiences coaching here at our local high school and also just as a young coach.

So let's go back in time to when you were a kid.

Tell me a little bit about your first experiences with the game of basketball.

What got you into it?

What made you fall in love with it?

Just describe what your first experiences were like with the game.

Yeah, so I actually grew up in Westlake before moving to where I live now in Brunswick.

And we had a.

We had neighbors that we were pretty close with and still close with today.

And they had a son that was a senior in high school when I was about 4 or 5 years old.

And he played football and basketball and kind of like was my inspiration at my age because some kind of someone I looked up to and he would always advise to play basketball.

Me and my brother and I just remember having lots of fun and then I remember telling my dad that, hey, I want to get like a mini hoop in the house or I want to watch like the Cavs run on a Tuesday night, like sit down and watch it with my dad.

And I feel like that's when I kind of really first started to get a passion for the game of basketball.

You always played some neighborhood basketball.

I feel like that is something that is oftentimes lost on people that are younger than me.

When I was a kid, that's what I did all the time playing in the driveway.

I used to ride my bike up to what is now where the strong as a library is used to be the courts back in the day where I would go and from the time I was 13 or 14 years old, ride my bike up there and used to be able to play pickup.

But sounds like you at least got to play a little, little driveway basketball in the neighborhood.

Oh yeah.

And even like when I moved to Brunswick and I was in high school, like we would come from school and like from 3 to 9:30 and then go play in B NBA 2K in the basement.

Like we were just basketball, basketball, basketball.

I was like, like I was like.

And now when I'm older, I'm like, I scrimmage like with the girls sometimes in high school and I need like six full timeouts.

I go up the court once or twice.

Growing up, what or who was your favorite player, your favorite teams?

Who would you Follow when you were younger.

I'm sure if a lot of Ohio fans aren't going to like this, but I'm a Michigan fan and I really liked Trey Burke from Michigan.

I thought he was a great leader, played the game the right way.

And I feel like I really fell in love with him was when he hit that shot versus Kansas in the NCAA tournament, or multiple shots, actually, and got them to the Final Four, but unfortunately lost to Louisville, I think it was.

But I would say Trey Burke.

Trey Burke's an Ohio kid.

I know.

So at least you got something.

He's.

Even though he went to Michigan, he's at least an Ohio high school player.

So you at least that.

You at least have that you can hang your hat on.

Yeah, I got something going.

That's right.

That's all.

That's all that matters.

So growing up in Brunswick, obviously for people who are not from Ohio or specifically Northeast Ohio, Joe Mackey, who was actually my high school teammate, has run a very successful public high school program at Brunswick.

He's the winningest high school basketball coach in Medina count of his county history.

So what do you remember growing up there in Brunswick and kind of following the program and one day dreaming about maybe being a part of that?

Yeah, so I remember all the travel leagues and like, I think it started in third grade, if I remember when I was playing.

And I think what was really cool is that he would come to our games.

Like if I started playing Independence or Brecksville, he would try and make it up there and then just little things.

He would host those camps.

So like.

Like he gets to see the kids from third all the way to sixth grade and doing the camps, even the fall leagues on Sundays, I remember doing those.

So I think he does a very good job of identifying kids from third grade and even.

Even through middle school too.

Like, he would support at tryouts and then I know, like, I mean, obviously he's coaching, so he tried make the best times he can for middle school games.

And then in high school, you just felt like you were connected with him.

And I think especially in today's world, that connection and bond between just humans in general, but more importantly coaches, is kind of lacking nowadays.

I don't know if you agree with that.

I do.

I think that's a huge piece of what has made Joe successful at Brunswick.

And I've heard that from people both inside and outside of his program that he is present with those younger kids.

He does get to know them, get to know their families.

And what I always say to people is that especially when you're coaching at a public high school, I think that it's certainly possible to have a great team, couple of great teams in a row.

When you get a good class of kids that comes through your program and you can win big because you end up having good talent.

But it's hard to be a sustainable program that wins year after year after year after year if you're not developing and investing in that youth program and your community from an early age.

And I look at what Joe's been able to do at Brunswick, and I look at other successful high school coaches, and what you see is that in good years, in those kinds of programs, they're going to win 18, 19, 20 games when they have talent because they're, he's, Joe's a good coach and they have good talent, so they're going to win.

And then when they have a down year where maybe the talent's not quite top shelf, they're still going to win 14, 15 games.

They're not going to have that down year where they win six games.

Like you might see other programs, because they've just put in place a program where you're just continuing to build and develop kids.

And some years you develop kids that have a lot of talent.

Some years you develop kids that maybe their ceiling's just not as high.

But you can guarantee that those kids are going to be bought into the program.

He's going to know them, he's going to know their strengths and weaknesses, and he's going to develop his program around what those kids are capable of doing.

And I think it's the difference between having a one off successful season and being able to sustain season after season of success.

And I think that's one thing that when I look at what Joe's been able to do there at Brunswick, I think he's done a tremendous job of that beyond just again coaching his varsity team.

So much of your success as a public high school coach is how are you investing in the rest of your program that starts, as you said back in third grade.

It goes through your middle school and your JV and all the way up through to the varsity that eventually by the time the kids get there, they've known him for eight, nine years.

They've probably heard his terminology.

They know the offense that the team runs and it just makes it a lot easier to bring those kids in and, and have them be a part of it.

I think if, if that's a lesson that you've taken away as a young Coach, from your experience, being a player in that program, that's invaluable.

Oh, I 100% agree.

And.

And I think I told you this, but I didn't play my junior and senior year, but me and him, a good conversation.

I remember after school, but.

And again, that's the other thing I like about Joe, is that he'll be honest with you.

Like, he's not gonna BS you through the system.

Just maybe hang on to you sophomore year, then do this your junior year.

Like, he'll be honest with you.

Like, hey, maybe if you.

Like, he told me this.

If you shoot the ball better and develop these skills, yeah, you might be able to get some varsity time.

And if not, then maybe you'll just play JV.

And as the time, it's like, as a kid, how do you take that?

But now it's like I respect him even more because I just know he was pointing out what I could get better at.

And then where I sit with the program, I think.

I think that really goes a long way with the kids.

That's another really good lesson, and I think it's one that especially young coaches sometimes struggle with.

I know that early in my career, it was something that I struggled with, was having those kinds of conversations where, hey, there's a kid that either maybe we have to cut or maybe a kid who's going to be at the end of our bench and they're not going to play that much.

And we got to have that conversation.

And one thing that I found, Nick, in all my experiences as a coach, as a player, and as a parent, and that is that if you don't have those difficult conversations, all you leave is this void in the air.

And I can guarantee that the void gets filled with something that's not the same as what you think as a coach.

So whatever opinion you have of a kid, if you don't clearly define for them what their role is or why this is happening or why this is not happening, I guarantee that that player, their friends, their parents, their parents, friends, all those people are filling that void with their own opinions, and they're not helping you as the coach, the player, or your program, you're much better off telling the truth.

Even though it may be something that in the moment, like you said, right, Coach Mackey tells you, hey, you got to work on this.

And if you don't, you may not have an opportunity to play in the moment, that can sting a little bit.

But as you said now, you look back on it and you appreciate it.

And I think ultimately, even though it stings in the moment, I think when you have a chance, even if you're a 14, 15, 16 year old kid, I still think that you'd rather hear the truth from your coach, that if I'm the 12th player on the team, I'd rather hear you're the 12th player on the team, that you probably aren't going to play.

As things stand now, that doesn't mean you can't improve and get better and maybe it'll change.

But for right now, you're probably not going to get very much playing time.

I'd much rather hear that than have somebody tell me, well, you never know, maybe this game is going to be the game that we can use you knowing full well that that's not the case.

And so I think to learn as a young coach to have difficult conversations is, is clearly something that's very important.

Have you experienced in your role to this point having to have one of those conversations?

And obviously you don't have to name names or do anything, but just, is there anything that sticks out in your mind so far that either you've had to do yourself or that you've seen another coach have to have that type of conversation?

Oh yeah, I've, I've been in the like room.

So it's conversations.

I've also had some myself just with the JV team.

And like I said, like, I also think of what I learned from Joe and then also think of how I was at that age.

It's like when I heard the news of, hey, I get better at this.

But right now you're not where we need you to be at.

That kind of stung a little bit like you hit it right in the head, like it did sting.

So it's like trying to find that middle point where you gotta be honest, but then like you don't want to ruin the kid's confidence, right?

At the same time, you can't just say negative, negative, negative, you gotta find some.

You also gotta build them up a little bit.

And I feel like I've had some pretty good conversations and even with the parents, like I'm not afraid to tell a parent, like, this is where this stands, this ends.

Because I think that if you get that out of the way early or during those conversations, it will help you in the future if that does happen again instead of just again.

Kind of like holding a man by a string and then saying this could happen, when in your mind at the moment you're pretty much giving them no chance.

So Yeah, I. I agree with you there.

I think the big thing I always say here is to be proactive in your communication and to talk to people before there's a problem and build that relationship before you have to have one of those difficult conversations.

If the first time I hear from you as a parent or the first time I hear from you and you're.

Whether you're a coach or you're a teacher and.

And the first conversation that I ever get a chance to have with when there's some type of problem or you have to break some bad news to me or whatever, it's not going to go as well as if we've already established a relationship where now I'm going to be much more receptive to the message that you're going to share.

And I think sometimes people forget that I know coaches.

There's lots of times, right.

Where it's kind of easy to try to sneak out of practice when parents are picking up their kids, or after.

After a game, you can slide out the back door or you can go down this hallway to be able to kind of avoid people.

And I've always found that in my career that you're much better off trying to.

Again, most people, not all, but most people, generally speaking, are friendly and are going to try to have positive conversations.

Obviously, every once in a while, you can get into a situation where that's not the case.

But I do think that proactive communication is.

Is really, really important because then it makes that conversation easier when you ultimately have to have it.

I'm sure you found that so far in your young career.

Oh, 100%, I agree.

And.

And like you said, like, instead of going the back door, like, between varsity and jv, I try to go in the stands, like, talk to the parents and, like, see how they're doing.

How's.

Like, how's this person's brother?

How's their sister?

And I feel like that goes a long way as well.

The show, like them that you also care about the players, but you also care about the families as well, because that's another thing.

Like, I think family is everything, and I think that's our big topic, and especially in high school sports, is trying to build that family connection.

Absolutely.

I mean, building relationships, to me is really a huge part of what makes for a great experience.

And it's interesting, Nick, because again, as I've gotten older and gotten more experienced as a parent, and, you know, I went through it back a long time ago when I played and then coached a number of years Both the high school level and then coaching my own kids and travel and AAU and all that kind of thing.

And the longer that you go on with the whole process, the more you come to realize that the day to day wins and losses as a coach, right.

Are in the moment.

Those are really important.

Like they feel I gotta win this game and I, I'm doing everything that I can in order to make that happen.

Preparing my team at practice and watching film and, and trying to be the best in game coach that I can be.

And as a player, you're trying to play the best that you possibly can and contribute in whatever way that you can help to help your team win.

And then that stuff's the most important day to day.

But then ultimately when you look back on your experience a year, two years, 10 years, 20 years later, like all that stuff kind of melts away.

And ultimately what it comes down to is what was my experience like both as a coach with a particular team or as a player.

And the day to day stuff just kind of ends up going away.

And so when you're talking about building relationships and creating a family atmosphere, like I think that's something that ultimately is, is immeasurable beyond those wins and losses, you, you take that away and you're, you're creating an experience for your players.

And I guess what I've learned over the course of time is that I'm starting to value that experience, piece of it and how my kids feel about what they're doing almost as much as I value the wins and losses in their performance on the court.

Not that I don't care about those things, because I do.

And I want them to compete and be the best that they possibly can, but I don't want that always to be at the expense of the overall experience and building relationships.

So I guess to lead off of what, you know, to piggyback off what I'm saying and actually ask you a question to respond to, what is your methodology for trying to build those relationships?

So you mentioned going into the stands and talking to kids who you just played the JV game, now they're watching the varsity game.

You can sit and have a conversation with them in between.

But how do you go about trying to build the relationships with the girls on your team?

Yeah, I think it's just, it's just like the will be like in sales or market.

You say create small talk, right?

Like every conversation you have with, with a kid doesn't have to be about basketball, be about, hey, how'd you do on your test yesterday, or how was.

How was.

How was this class?

How was.

Hey, and I knew you guys went to Florida over the summer.

How was that?

And just.

Just ask them questions like that is.

That builds that relationship.

And even though it's something very small and.

And I always think, like.

Like you never know what someone's going through.

Right.

And especially at high school, and never know how their day was, never know how stuff's going on at home.

And maybe.

Maybe basketball is their time to just let loose and have a free mind and go have fun.

And I always think that.

And when I have those relationships or conversations during practice games, when we have team dinners, I just always try to connect with every single one and kind of like a special way.

So it doesn't seem like I'm only talking to three.

Three or four of them every single day.

Yeah, I think being genuine, right.

Having a genuine interest in them and not just doing it because you feel like it's something that you should do, but really wanting to get to know them, not just as basketball players, but as people.

And then I think you make a great point there about making sure that you're connecting with every player on your roster.

I just had a conversation in the pod that I recorded right before you got on Nick with Caleb south and his episode of People.

Listen to it.

It's already been out, but Caleb talked a little bit about.

He and I were discussing what you do with the kids at the back half of your roster that maybe aren't getting the amount of playing time that.

That they would like.

And so when they're not getting the playing time, how do you make sure that you keep those kids engaged?

How do you make sure that you are continuing to build the relationship with them?

How do you make sure that you're continuing to coach them?

Because a lot of times in the course of a season, it's easy to forget about the kids who are kind of out of your rotation.

And I think sometimes coaches forget that those kids still want to be coached and they still want to get better and they still want to improve.

So how do you look at that with the girls on your team that maybe aren't playing as much as they would like to?

How do you still pour into them as a coach to let them know that you still care about them as people, but also that you care about them as a basketball player and that you want them to get better?

How do you handle that back end of the roster piece?

Yeah, it's a great question.

And I. I'd Say, the biggest thing is during practice is making sure that when.

When you're doing drills, right?

Making sure that it's not always starting five, and then maybe the seven or eight, make sure that everyone gets the same amount of reps. And when they make a mistake, call, not call them out on, but teach them up.

Because I think what I've seen from coaching is that, like, when, like a starting five player makes mistake, they get corrected.

And then when, like you said, bottom half the roster makes a mistake and they travel, they just let them play.

It's like, well, no, they'll never learn, right?

If you don't teach them and then you put them in the game when you're up by 20 or down by 20, they make those mistakes.

And then that hurts their confidence as well.

And then maybe as a coach, I always think maybe I could have prevented that.

Maybe they won't have traveled.

And if I told them that, hey, in practice, hey, just take a couple jump stops, look around, don't always think, be quick on your feet.

Just like little things like that.

And I feel like that.

Again, like we always talk about practice, translate the games.

And that's a perfect example right there with, like you were saying, the back half of your roster.

It makes a huge difference when you continue to coach those kids who don't get minutes in a game.

And I know because I've had my kids be in those positions where they weren't getting maybe the amount of playing time that they wanted.

And when they were in those situations and their coach was still coaching them, then they still felt valued when, yeah, all they did was play defense throughout a practice and the coach never said a word to them.

Not really the same experience because you don't feel like you're getting better and you don't feel like you're getting an opportunity.

You don't feel like you're being seen.

And I think the best teams that I've ever coached or the best teams that I've ever played on had everybody rowing the boat in the same direction and everybody believing that they played an important role.

And I think practice, obviously, is the time when you're spending the most amount of time together as a team.

And if you're only talking to the eight players who play most of the minutes on your team, and you're not talking to the last four, five, six, depending on how big your roster is, and those girls or those boys aren't getting any attention at all from the coaching staff, it gets really discouraging really fast.

And when those Kids turn and end up not being as engaged.

It gets really easy for your team chemistry to be thrown off because you have four or five people at the back end of your bench who are disgruntled and don't feel like they're a part of it.

And it's so much better when you can engage those kids and doing it on a day to day basis by how you coach them.

But then also like you talked about going into the stands and talking to them, talking to their family, asking them how the test went, asking them about something going on at home or their brother or their sister or whatever it may be.

I think that that relationship piece of it is, is so huge in terms of building team chemistry.

And I'm sure you found that to be the case so far in your career.

Oh, 100%.

And one of the funny things that people tell me is like, hey, you always gotta watch out for the parents.

Like it's not the refs, it's not the schedule, it's not the games, it's the parents, the parents, the parents.

And I don't know if I'm just.

I've been lucky the last two years, but like I love the parents that are of the program right now.

And I think I've gotten to have a good relationship, especially with ones that are like sophomores, juniors and seniors because I was there last year.

And then like we've been talking about trying building that same relationship with the freshman parents, then also keeping that consistency with the sophomores, juniors and freshmen, or sophomores, juniors and senior parents.

And I feel like those relationships are great.

And I think it's benefited me because you also get their viewpoint on some things.

And like I talked about before, like maybe they will tell you what's going on at home.

Maybe they are struggling in school and they do need practice as something that just gets away.

And again, if it's that bottom half player that you're not focusing on and she had a bad day at school and then you don't even seem to care, then I think that kind of brings that player down a little bit.

Yeah, I think that approachability, right.

With a parent and just again, being someone who is not that you have to sit down after every game and discuss strategy with parents or explain playing time decisions or any of that.

No coach really wants to do that before or after a game.

But the simple saying hello and checking in or whatever it might be just to again make that communication proactive and make it positive.

It makes it way easier when people think that you're approachable and you're communicating.

It's when there's a lack of communication, like we talked about before, where there's this vacuum and nothing's happening, and there's this gap between a parent and a coach.

And then like I said earlier, that void, that vacuum is almost always filled with nonsense that has nothing to do with what you, as the coach actually are thinking or what you believe.

And it's in that lack of communication where the confusion begins.

And that's when you, I think, end up with problems when you don't proactively communicate.

And I think, again, you've been doing a really good job of that, of being able to just, again, be out there having conversations with people so that they get to know you as.

As a human being and again, know who you are.

It's a lot easier to be mad at some figureheads sitting over on the bench that you never talk to than it is to she mad at a.

At a.

At a actual human being that you've had multiple conversations with over the course of a season, two seasons, three seasons, however many times that you get a chance to do that.

So I think that's.

That's really, really important.

Let's work backwards, Nick, to your decision to get involved in coaching.

And for those people who, who don't know Nick, he works a.

He works a, quote, real job.

Right.

He's not in the education field, so he works with.

For Sherwin Williams.

And again, he's.

He's in the, quote, unquote, real world.

But tell me about your decision to get into coaching.

How did that come to be?

And was it something that you always thought maybe you wanted to do or just.

Maybe an opportunity came to you?

Just walk me through that.

Yeah.

So I think probably my interest started when I was watching my sister play.

She played for Brunswick.

And I feel like.

And I've always had a passion for the game.

And when I stopped playing basketball for Brunswick my junior year, I kind of lost interest for a little bit.

And then just simple things like watching college basketball, I'm like, damn, how cool would it be to go coach a team and celebrate victories, do all the.

Just do the little things about basketball?

And I kind of missed that.

And so a way that I. I found a way to get back in it back in it was to actually get my license to ref.

So I got my license to ref last year, beginning of the year, and then kind of felt bad for my assigner because all the games that he had me were like, pretty much filled throughout the year.

And then actually my dad, me and him were sitting on the couch probably watching basketball and he goes, hey, do you want to want to coach?

And I'm like, coach what?

Like football, baseball?

He goes basketball?

And I'm thinking like his friends, daughters or friends, sons, like travel, middle school team.

And he goes, oh no, do you want Anthony's reaching out who coached at Brunswick?

That's how we know each other.

And he goes, we want to coach JV girls basketball.

And I'm like, hell yeah, let's do it.

And I'm very lucky at work because it's kind of like very flexible hours.

So you could work like 8 to 5, 4 to 7.

What I do, I work 6 to 2:30 and then I jump right to practice.

So it actually worked out pretty well.

What's the first experience like when you show up for your very first practice?

What do you remember thinking about as you're standing there in front of your team for the first time trying to figure out, hey, what do I do?

How do I make this interaction work?

What do you remember about your first thoughts the first 5, 10 minutes of your first practice?

I was nervous.

I think it was actually, I think open gym was the first time.

I kind of like saw the girls and met the coaches and like to me like I just blacked out.

I'm like oh my gosh, they all look like the same talent level, like especially jv.

I'm like like how do, how do coaches differentiate and say hey, does this person deserves the start over this one or this starting five is better than this five?

But yeah, my initial reaction was like, I mean kind of, kind of nerve wracking.

I'll be honest,

I'll tell you my story.

So I've shared this one on the podcast a couple times but I'll share it with you now because I think it's relevant here.

So when I got my very first coaching job and I was coming off my playing career playing career and I ended up, I, I first coached, I actually helped coach Eicher coach the strongest will JV team.

My first, my first year out of college and I didn't really have much responsibility cause I was kind of a volunteer and I wasn't at every single practice.

But I, I, I think I made most of em and I didn't really have a ton of responsibility so I don't remember being very nervous for that because I didn't have to really plan anything and I didn't really have any responsibility.

I was just kind of along for the Ride just to kind of see if, is this something that I might want to do?

And then the next year, I ended up getting hired at Bay Village as the JV coach.

And so I go in there my first day of practice with the JVs.

And at the time, Bay's coaching staff, they had.

Rich Voyers was the head varsity coach, and he had been there probably for 35 or 40 years.

And his assistant was Dick Scott.

And Dick was probably, at the time, he felt ancient to me.

And I.

Because I was 23, he probably was the age I am now.

He was probably 55 maybe or so.

So I had these two older guys that I think just.

They kind of knew what they were doing, how they wanted to do it.

I was this young guy coming off a playing career, and I went into my first practice and ran my first drill.

And I remember watching that drill, and it was just me, one guy with a whistle, and 12 JV basketball players.

And I just remember thinking to myself, I watched that first drill, and I just kind of put my head down.

I was like, there was like, 500 mistakes that were made in that first five minutes of this drill.

How am I ever gonna do this?

Like, I had no idea what I was going to do, because I just.

I'm like, I can't stop the practice for every single thing that I see them doing wrong.

So what am I going to do?

How am I going to figure it out?

And eventually it got better.

But I know that for myself as a coach, that that's always been one of my biggest weaknesses is trying to figure out what it is that I want to focus on.

And I want to emphasize, because I'm somebody that kind of wants to try to fix everything, and then sometimes, at my worst as a coach, I try to fix everything and then end up fixing nothing.

And so I can totally relate to your nerves and concern with trying to figure it out, because I think there's a. I think there's a.

A myth that if you're a good player, that it automatically makes you a good coach.

I think lots of players think that, and I know for sure that I thought that back in the day.

And I'm pretty sure that I thought I knew more basketball at 23 than I think I know now at 55.

I realize now that I know very, very, very little about the game compared to how much I thought I knew at 23, where I thought I knew everything, that I was just going to walk into a practice and be a great coach.

And I think that the Nerves and the not really understanding probably was a good place, believe it or not, for you to be because it meant that your ego wasn't getting in the way, thinking that, hey, I could do this.

And it, I'm sure, set you up to, to want to learn as quickly as you possibly could.

And I'm sure there's some good lessons that you learned early on over the first month or so of, of coaching.

So is there something that you think that after the first day, 2, 3, 4, 5, that you're like, okay, I kind of get this.

Here's, here's something I learned pretty early on.

Is there something that fits, that fits that category?

I would say that the girls are coachable.

And I don't know if it was just that group at particular or this group this year, but I noticed right away and I thought it was going to be a challenge, to be honest with you.

I thought it was going to be like repeating yourself just to get in help side defense.

But I was most impressed with and kind of shocked by, and this is not a knock on the players at all, but I was just really impressed that you told them a few times and they would nod their head and say, all right.

And then you would see them do it.

Like if you tell them to run a certain cut, run a certain motion, hey, rebound, better box out, like, snap a finger, they would go do it.

And I think that's something that I noticed right off the bat within the first probably week or so of coaching.

I think that's a really good point.

I hear that from coaches that have coached both boys and girls at the high school level that girls are far more receptive to, hey, do this.

And then they're going to try to do it.

They might not always be able to do it successfully, but they're certainly going to try.

Whereas boys tend to, I don't want to see, say, be less coachable.

That's not the right way to say it, but boys tend to improvise more and they may take your advice into account and then still maybe try to do something else just because they've played or had more experience or whatever the case may be.

And, and girls seems to want, seem to want to please their coach and kind of take your directions literally.

So you'll actually see like, okay, I gotta try to get this done.

Whereas boys, maybe it's not quite to that same, to that same level.

So I think your experience is one that I've heard other people talk about and obviously that makes it a lot easier to coach when you can give instruction and then somebody's going to try to do what you're asking them to do.

And that, again, makes your job as a coach a lot easier.

Oh, 100%.

If I ask you a question really

quick, sure, go for it.

So one thing that I've been trying to learn and get better at is, again, like, I'm not trying to focus at.

Focus on the X's and O's, a lot of it.

Because I feel like I could get help through that.

Even, like asking you or the varsity coaches.

Just going on YouTube nowadays, I could find that stuff.

But I guess how, from your experience, how did you, like, kind of find a difference in tone of, like, getting into the players and point them accountable, then also at the same time, like, not drilling their confidence and also being positive?

Yeah, it's a really good question.

I think.

Number one, I think is you have to be yourself.

And that's something that I struggled with a little bit because I tend to be a fairly calm individual.

So you're not going to see me if you watch me coach.

You're not going to see me screaming at players.

You're not going to see me going wild on the sideline.

You're not going to see me doing any of that.

In a practice setting.

I tend to be pretty even keel.

And yet when I first started, there was a part of me, and again, especially growing up in the era that I did.

So I think about.

Not that I would have ever wanted to play for Bobby Knight, but there were a lot of coaches in that particular coaching vein that were around that I witnessed, that I saw.

And so there was a part of me that says, well, in order to hold players accountable, I have to be tougher or I have to be able to yell or I have to be able to do those kinds of things in order to get players to do what I want them to do.

And I quickly realized one, that when I tried to yell and scream like that one, I couldn't take myself seriously.

So, yeah, as I'm yelling and screaming, like, I'd almost.

I'd almost be laughing in my head, like, trying to stifle a laugh, because most of the time, if I was.

If I was yelling or screaming, I was just kind of making it up in order to.

In order to show that whatever fake tough guy spirit, for lack of a better way of saying it.

So I think number one is you have to be yourself.

That's the first thing.

And then I think number two, to go along with that when you talk about how do you get players, how do you hold them accountable?

I think one of the things that I found with players that I've coached, teams that I've worked with, and again, this is something that I sort of developed over time is you really have to sit down and, and you have to talk both formally and informally with players about what it is that they're trying to accomplish and what kind of player do they want to be.

And if a player says, hey, I want to play on a team and we want, I want to win a lot of games and I want to have an environment that's fun to be in and I want to be able to continue to improve or like at your level, like, hey, I eventually want to be a varsity player, that might be a goal that a player who's playing on the JV team has.

And so you kind of have those goals in mind that the player has shared with you.

And then when the player isn't doing some of the things that you would like them to do, then it's as simple as I don't have to scream at them, but I can walk over to them when they come off on the sideline, say, hey, you know, we've talked about the fact that you want to be on a winning team or you want to try to improve it eventually via varsity player.

Well, if you want to do that, then your effort right now isn't to the level that it needs to be.

Or I've got to hold you accountable to the fact that you've now committed six fouls in the last two minutes or you've now traveled four times when you've tried to square up and rip through or whatever the case may be.

And I think it really comes down to, for me, Nick, that you have to a be yourself.

You can't try to be somebody else because kids, I don't care if they're 13 year old girls or they're NBA pros.

If you are not yourself and you're not authentic players sniff that out and they can see it from a mile away and they're not going to buy into what you're doing.

So I think if you are yourself and you're coaching to who you are and in the way that is best for you, that's going to allow you to be able to be able to reach them.

And then I think you just have to continue to hold them accountable based upon again, not just some arbitrary standard, but what are the things that we talked about as an individual player and what are the things that we talked about as a team and is this meeting our standard?

And if it's not, then we have to collectively figure out a way to fix it.

Like, I can't scream at you to get you to play harder to do what we want you to do.

It should be a collective effort between me as the coach and my individual player or my team as a whole.

And that requires, again, not something that I've done previous to coming into a practice and trying to hold my team accountable.

Because we've already talked about the goals and the things that we want to accomplish.

And if we're not doing the things that we said we wanted to do, why not let's revisit the goals and go back at that?

So those are the two things that I would say, is one, whole players accountable to something that they've told you that they want to accomplish?

And do that in a way that's reflective of who you really are.

You can't coach and not be who you are because kids will.

Kids will sense it.

You got to be authentic.

Yeah, that's really good advice.

Thank you for answering that.

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Back to what you said about like raising your voice in practice.

Like, when I would, when I did that, like this year and last year, like, I, like, I couldn't even start.

Like, the girls just laugh at me because they know, like, that's not the coach who I am, so.

Exactly.

I've scrambled like, like, play harder.

Whatever.

I scream.

They would just all start laughing.

I'm like, God damn it.

I came in.

I can't.

I came in to yell.

And like, that's how, that's how you, like you said it.

Like, I'm not gonna yell just to yell because I don't think that's really coaching.

That's just called screaming.

And yet, like, you get to do some of the hype huddles, right?

And oh yeah, you bring that level of enthusiasm.

And there's some people that if they were doing that and trying to get their team pumped up.

They couldn't do that, and they couldn't be genuine while they were doing that.

And they'd feel the same way that you do when you're yelling or screaming.

They would feel the same way if they were trying to get a team pumped up in a high puddle.

And so again, it speaks to.

Right.

You got to know what your personality is.

I'll be honest with you, Nick.

There's so coach who's right now, he's the girls coach at St. Joseph Academy, Phil Schmuck.

And I coached with Phil for the first, I guess, 12 years of my career.

I was his varsity assistant at Richmond Heights.

And I tell people this story all the time.

It's one of my favorite Phil Schmuck stories.

And it kind of goes along with what we're talking about.

But I was Phil's assistant.

I've never seen anybody be able to do what this story is about to tell you that Phil could do.

So we're at practice one day, and I'm standing under one basket, and Phil's at half court and his back is to me, and he's looking down at our team, who's whatever at the one end of the floor.

And I'm.

I'm at the opposite end.

He's at half court, so his back is to me.

And something happened.

He got really mad.

And he probably went on a minute and a half rant, just screaming at the team and just the whole up and down bad language, this, that names all kinds of stuff, just, I mean, face turning, you know, just turning beet red, all this stuff.

And now I can't again, I can't see his.

I. I can't see him as he's doing this.

I'm looking at his back and as I'm standing there, you know, I'm just looking, I'm listening.

And he gets done and he turns around and he goes.

And he just gets this big smile on his face like it was.

It was completely.

It was completely for show.

And I've never seen anyone else in my entire life coaching who could turn his emotions on and off the way that.

The way that Phil could and do it in such a way that it was still.

It was just authentic to him.

It would never have been authentic to me.

I could have never done it.

I would have completely either started laughing or been super angry and certainly not been able to recover as quickly as he was able to recover.

And it's one of the most amazing things that I'm seeing.

Some people have that gift.

I certainly did not have it.

Phil had it in such a way that I've never seen anyone else be able to do that.

And so I think that for the average person who can't pull the Phil schmook, you definitely want to be able to coach to your personality, whatever that is.

So you're in the high puddle and you're doing that.

And that's something that again speaks to the kind of coach that you are versus somebody else who maybe can get more out of, out of a team by yelling and screaming.

And there's just again, you gotta coach.

Your personality is what it comes down to for me.

Yeah, I agree.

And like even, like even when I'm at work, like I'm just.

And my dance skills are terrible but like I dance around at work, I have fun at work.

And just cuz I'm at work doesn't mean you gotta like be all boring and not try to communicate.

And like even when I'm coaching, like, like, I mean you see me like some.

I sometimes maybe do a little too much get on the refs a little bit.

But I feel like that has at least, I think it has a positive impact on the, on the girls I coach because they see me getting energized.

Like every time they make a good hustle play, I'm always yelling out their name or their number saying great job or get a rebound, make a big three.

I let them know in the huddle and I feel like again those little small things, like I think that go, that go a long way and like make their confidence skyrocket from what, from what it already is or maybe it's down.

But yeah, like I think the energy that I try to bring has a positive impact.

It shows you're with them.

Right?

I think that's what it shows, that you're in the battle with them, you're excited for them.

And again, there's lots of different ways that coaches can demonstrate that both in the game, in practice, in the locker room, in their relationship with players.

And you have to find what works for you ultimately.

And I think that getting the player.

The best teams that I've ever been around are teams where everybody wants the same thing, everybody's pulling it all in the same direction, everybody's happy for one another's success.

And that's not easy to do.

It doesn't happen all the time.

I've been in lots of situations where that's not the case.

And there are challenges between players and coaches and players.

And when you have everybody going in the same direction, it Just makes things so much easier.

And there's no one magic formula for making that happen.

It's a matter of you just have to put in the time.

You have to show your players that you care about them, not just as basketball players, but as people, and that you're with them and that you care about their success.

And you got to get them to buy into each other's success and help them to foster relationships, not just with you, but with each other.

And again, we're talking about things that are easy to say, but they're much harder to do on a day to day basis.

It takes intentional effort to try to build those relationships amongst all the people on your team in your program in order to make it as strong as it possibly can be.

And again, there's no magic formula.

It just takes intentionality day in and day out.

And so to go along with the idea of building a program, coaching to who you are and thinking about yourself as a young coach early in your career, trying to learn the profession, what are some things that you've done since you started coaching to try to help yourself to grow and improve.

And there's lots of different areas that we could dive into here.

You could talk about again, being reading books, having mentors, watching tape, whatever it is.

Just walk me through some of the things that you've done that maybe could help another young coach that's listening to the podcast.

Maybe grab an idea from you of things that you've tried to do to grow and, and improve in, in your time as a coach.

Well, I'd say first advice is listen to this podcast.

All right, there we go.

I like it.

I mean, okay, I'll share a quick little story too.

I think I told you this.

I think I was on Twitter one day and I saw Maddie's name pop up, the head coach and started listening to the podcast.

I'm listening to him, like, man, this guy's voice sounds like really familiar.

I'm like, I know this guy from somewhere.

It's work.

It's one of my dad's friends.

And I click.

I'm like, I'm like, holy crap.

It's like cleansing.

So that's, that's, that was kind of a funny way how I got this podcast.

But no, I'd say, I'd say, I think you said as well in the beginning, like, you don't, you don't know everything about basketball, right?

And I think if.

And like you said it as well, like, I didn't have that ego saying, oh, I know this.

I'M better at this.

I, I know everything about basketball.

And as a coach, you gotta be coachable and you gotta be able to learn.

And I just think like asking other coaches, like before the games, I try to talk to their JV coach, try to talk to their head coach, talk.

Maybe if there's a parent on the other team that I know from just networking, hey, what are some things that maybe you see me on the sideline doing?

And actually one of the something that my grandpa, my dad told me is that last year I always flung my hands in the air when our players made a mistake.

And then he would see the player's reaction.

And I mean, I feel like the player would be like, damn, that coach doesn't like trust me anymore.

He always gets mad.

Even when it was like an aggressive mistake, I would throw my hands up and get all pissed, which was funny to see on film.

But then my dad and my grandpa were like, well, Nick, like if you keep doing that, their hands in the air, then they're just gonna stand there and catch the ball and just won't even try to make a play and do all that stuff.

So I think that's something I learned right away.

Watching yourself on film, if anyone is out there listening and you haven't done that, whether it's during a game or in practice, I'll give you a good one, Nick.

For me, so what I was coaching, and specifically when I was coaching my own kids, I don't think I did this as much to other kids that were on my kids teams when I was coaching their travel or aau.

But whenever my kids would do something wrong, I would always go like this, put my hands on the, put the hands on my top of my head and put my head down.

And my kids repeatedly would tell me, dad, please stop doing that.

And it's one of those things that it was just a natural reaction to whatever mistakes that they were making out on the floor.

But once I was made aware of it, I really tried to make a conscious effort not to do it.

And I think one of the things that I noticed too now as a parent sitting in the stands is you really do notice when there are coaches that have bad body language.

Anytime that a mistake is made or a call goes against them, you notice that body language.

And one of the things that, right, I think collectively we as coaches try to coach in our players is to have good body language.

Have good body language on the bench, have good body language on the court.

And when we don't do that on the Sidelines, it's really hard then to expect our players to be able to do that.

And so watching yourself on film, you definitely pick up on some of those mannerisms and reactions that when you see them, you're like, whoa, maybe I have to cut.

Maybe I have to cut down a little bit.

Yep, 100 on some of that.

And to your point, like, there are some kids who can ignore that and it doesn't affect them, but I can guarantee you that there are other kids that when the coach puts their hands on their head or the coach throws their arms up in the air after a mistake, that that kid feels that and ends up not playing as well.

And I think one of the things that I always think about as a coach now is just the further and further that you get from being a player.

I think sometimes we forget what it's like to try to playing a game.

If your coach is always.

Every time something goes wrong, your coach is putting their head down or turning around on the bench or throwing their hands up in the air or turning around and yelling at their assistant coach about why, you know, who knows what the person's even saying.

And like I said, there are some kids that can ignore that.

But I think generally speaking, the effect that you think you're going for as a coach, a lot of times I think that.

I think that back.

I think that backfires.

I don't think players react to that.

And again, that's going back to the question that you asked me about holding people accountable.

Right.

There's a.

This is where the art of coaching, I think, comes in.

I always say that there's a science to it.

There's X's and O's and there's execution and all that stuff.

But then the art of coaching is understanding how to get the best out of every kid.

And not everybody player can be coached in the exact same way.

Some need more of a push, some need less.

Some need more of a boost of confidence.

Some can take a little bit harder coaching.

Some need an arm around them.

Every.

Every player is different.

And that goes to what you talked about in terms of building the relationship and getting to know the kid and what they're like and how you can push the button to help them to be able to be the best player that they can possibly be.

And.

And I do think that, yeah, the body language piece of coaching is something that you definitely have to watch.

And if you haven't watched yourself on film, it's always really interesting, let's put it that way.

Oh, yeah, I mean, every game I like JVM Varsity.

I watch.

Well, first I watch the game probably one or two times, then do clips, and then during that second time, I'll watch myself during certain, certain plays, how I react, see if I like, yell at the ref too much, which I also feel like I've improved on from last year to this year.

But I do have my moments.

And I guess now we're on the topic of huddle and film.

I guess when you watch film, when you watch film for your teams, what are like the most important, like keys or factors that you look for?

That's a good question.

And it was right along the lines of what I was going to ask you.

So I'll answer it and then I'll throw it back to you.

I think when I'm watching film, what I try to see is what's going on away from the ball.

And I like to start with that defensively because I think a lot of times, even as a coach in game, I find myself watching the ball a lot.

Yeah, obviously as a fan, that's what most fans are watching.

They're not watching what's going on away from the ball.

But even as a coach, when I'm coaching a game, too often I find myself just watching the ball and something will break down away from the ball and I won't see it.

So when I'm watching film, I try to keep my eyes away from the ball and keep my eyes on what's going on away from the ball.

Specifically first, probably on the defensive side.

Are we in a stance?

Are we off on help side?

Are we reacting after our player moves or are we actively trying to dictate where our offensive player can go?

Because we're meeting them and we're.

We're bumping the cutter or we're jumping to the ball or doing things that the average person may not see.

So that's what I'm looking for.

First on the defensive side of the ball and then on the offensive side of the ball.

What I'm trying to look at away from the ball is are we stagnant or are we moving?

And that goes where Whatever kind of offense that we're running, it really doesn't matter.

But is there action going on away from the ball that keeps those defenders occupied so that whatever's going on with the ball, whatever action I might be running there, has more of a chance to gain us an advantage?

Because the health defenders are engaged in trying to actively guard someone who's moving, not just someone who's standing There.

So that's probably the first thing.

If I was going to pinpoint one thing, I'm looking at the action away from the ball on the two ends of the floor.

And again, that could be.

There might be something specific that I'm looking for, depending on what kind of offense I'm running or what sets the other team was trying to run or what may have happened on a given possession.

But generally speaking, my eyes are going to go while I'm watching film away from the ball, because I feel like in game I'm probably seeing a lot of what happened on the ball and I'm missing what happened away from the ball, if that makes sense.

Yeah, 100% agree.

And I'm kind of the same way when I watch film on, like, for varsity more specifically, and I make clips.

And defense is the same thing.

And I think my biggest thing, I think this is more for offense, but.

And I kind of have had a similar answer, so I'm just gonna go more like.

Kind of like more into it.

And my biggest thing is, And I'm.

And I'm not at varsity practice.

I'm only with jv, so I can only speak for JV of like, practice the game.

But to speak on varsity, I always look for, like, am like, well, what I clip or what the coaches clip, is that translating into future games?

And then I always look back, like, the game before, like, what.

What did I clip?

Or Matty Don or anything.

What did they clip?

And do we make the same mistake again the following week?

And I feel like this year we have been.

Because this year, such a young team.

And again, like, they're trying.

Like, they give effort.

They, again, like we talked about, they want to be coached.

And I think that's the biggest thing is, is it translating?

And then at the same time, are they paying attention in the film room?

That's the thing I look for.

And then I'd probably say the third biggest thing is, how was the bench's reaction?

Like, are they dialed into the game and are they paying attention?

Are they talking to the stands, waving at their parents, talking to the trainers?

Like, no one's ever done this, but I'm sure it happens.

Bringing your phone because you know you won't get in.

But.

And.

And I always think, like.

And I told the girls this during the JV game today.

Like, they're running at 2, 3.

And I'm like, hey, when you.

When you're on that bench, look at maybe the open areas.

Like when we send this girl through this gap, when we rotate back, then we swing the ball backside.

Maybe backside is open.

Next time you get in that position, you go fill it and you get yourself a layup.

It's just like those kind of things.

That is what I look for when I watch Huddle and hopefully it translates well.

Yeah, I love that point about does it translate right?

Because clearly what you're trying to do as a coach, one, you're trying to improve your team, you're also trying to improve each player individually.

And I think film is such a powerful tool.

So I'm always watching film.

Meline and I are a few games behind right now, but yeah, I always watch film with Cal.

I always try to watch film.

Yeah, try.

Always try to watch film with Meline and go through and.

And get them to see things that are that.

That they need to do.

And so obviously it's different when you're watching a film with your kid and you're just kind of focused in on what they're supposed to be doing versus watching it, obviously as a coach and you're watching the whole spectrum and you're trying to watch every player.

But when I watch it with my own kid from an individual standpoint, then I'm really trying to dial in on to your point.

Things that are translatable, things that I think.

And again, I don't always know exactly what is supposed to happen on the floor in terms of what kind of offense are we running.

Where are you supposed to be in relation to.

Maybe it's a set play or defensively, maybe you got an assignment where you're not supposed to be helping.

And so there's lots of things that again, as a parent sitting there that I don't know because I don't know the game plan.

I'm not at practice every day.

So I try to look for things that are effort related or things that are just universal truths about basketball.

So I'll give you one example with my daughter Madeline that I talk to her about all the time is it'll be a shot will go up and she doesn't get back on defense and she doesn't go after the rebound.

She just stands there and I'll tell her that over and over and over again, like do one or the other.

You either got to get back or you got to go crash the boards.

And so it's like, how many times do you have to hear it in order to get it to translate?

And then what I'll find Nick.

And I think this is speaks to the consistency of high school players is I'll think that it's been conquered and that she gets it.

Like, I'll see her do it for the majority of one game, and then the next game it's gone again.

I'm like, what happened?

Like, yeah, you know, I'm like, what do you.

You know, where.

Where did this.

You know, where did this happen?

Or anybody who knows.

My daughter knows she loves to foul on defense.

It's her.

Probably her.

Probably her number one issue.

And so much of her issues of fouling happen because off the ball, she's not in a stance and somebody cuts in front of her or somebody catches the ball and she's not ready to play.

And they catch the ball and they're ready, and then they go and then she fouls.

And so those are things that I try to convey.

And it goes to the bigger point of what we're talking about here, which is what you're looking for when you're watching film is can we point out things good and bad, that we can either, if they're good, that we can continue so that they're something that we do consistently well all the time.

Like, here's where we did it once, or here's where we did it twice, or this is what we're doing consistently.

Can we do it game after game after game?

Can we make this a strength?

And then secondly, can we look at some of the things that maybe we're struggling with that here's clip A, B, C, D, E of this same situation where we didn't handle it correctly.

Let's get this fixed.

And as you well know and what I hear you saying and what I've experienced both as a coach and as a parent working with my own kids watching film, the process of getting it to translate is not as easy and as straight line as any of us would like it to be.

Like.

The film doesn't lie.

They can see it.

But in the moment, they still have to be able to recognize it and apply it and think back to the lesson that they learned from the film in the moment.

And that's a process.

It doesn't take.

It doesn't happen overnight.

It takes a while for that to happen.

And I know that as a coach, that can be frustrating.

As a parent, that can be frustrating.

And to your point, you keep trying to find ways to make your coaching translatable.

That applies in film, that applies in practice.

That applies to a specific drill, right?

Like, we can shoot all we want, but ultimately is the shooting that we're doing, does it translate into more Made shots in a game.

And that's one of the things that I'm always trying to figure out as a coach.

If I'm training a kid, if I'm working at camp, if I'm working with my own kids, is what I'm doing, is it translating to them performing better on the court, not just doing the drill better?

And that's, I think, again, that's the art of coaching, is trying to figure out what you can do that.

Yeah, anybody can look at X's and O's on Twitter or on YouTube and come up with this great idea or this, but can you teach it and make it translatable so that what you're showing them actually shows up on the court?

And that's hard.

It's hard to do.

Oh, 100%, I agree.

And I think that's actually.

You talk about, like, some things that I've learned.

And actually this just popped my head.

Like, last year, I was very like, YouTube and, like, find all these certain drills, and at the end of the year, I'm like, all these drills did at practice, like, doing, like, three on two or doing, like, this game, I'm like, is this really translating into game, like, situations?

So then I kind of looked back, and one of my goals was when we scrimmage was like, what tendencies are we good at?

And then kind of keep moving forward with that and then look at the bad tendencies and try and improve those.

So I think that's kind of like two building blocks or get to the same goal.

Right?

Like, you're looking at the good tendencies building off that, but you're also trying to build the bad ones.

And then I also feel like, the preparation aspect of it.

And because I. I love watching film.

I love watching, like, opponents trying to figure out their tendencies, even for jv.

Like.

Like, I do my best to make sure that my team's prepared.

So when they see a 1, 2, 2 zone or 2, 2, 1, or when they trap the first pass or any type of something that's not normal to them, I try to make up drills that translate, like, to the game, and I think I've done a pretty good job of that.

Or try to be at least.

Yeah, no, and look, everything that you just said kind of goes into what we've been talking about.

So you talked about prep, right?

So, one, you've got to be prepared with what it is that you want to teach in a practice setting, right?

If you come in and you're just kind of going haphazard, it's not Going to go well, you got to have an idea of what you want to do.

And then I think what I talked about in my very first practice as a coach of seeing 500 mistakes and wanting to fix them all, that's impossible.

So what you just talked about is, hey, what's something that we do well that we can just focus in on, on this drill?

And let's just, again, at some point, you have to ignore some of the things that maybe aren't being done perfectly and focus on what is it that you're actually trying to teach.

So sometimes it's something that your team's really good at.

You're trying to double down on it and make it a strength.

And then other times, there's something that maybe you're not as good at, and you want to work on that, and you have to.

And ignore sounds like such the wrong word when you say ignore.

A mistake that's being made.

But I guess what I'm saying there is you have to allow the kids to play through mistakes and look for the big picture thing that it is that you're trying to get across from them.

And then the last piece of that is once you've determined, hey, what kind of drill are we going to do, what's the focus of that going to be both for me as a coach and for them as players?

And then you have to go back and reflect after the fact and figure out, did what I tried to teach, did this drill work?

Did it eventually translate into them improving?

And not just improving at the drill, but actually improving in a game?

And sometimes that's hard to me.

Sometimes it's hard to measure right?

Like, sometimes you don't figure that out.

It may take half a season.

It may take a whole season of you doing something and figuring out, like, hey, we got to approach it differently.

And one of the things that I always say to people is, and I don't know how you are, but I feel like when I sit down in front of my computer or I sit down with a notepad in front of me and I'm trying to design a drill, like, I'm not very good at designing drills while I'm sitting at a desk.

But if you put me out of the court and you say, okay, okay, we're gonna do, like, we're doing four on first shell drill, and maybe there's something that I want to teach out of that.

As I'm out on the floor, I can figure out how I want to manipulate the constraints or whatever it may be or the rules of the game to be able to kind of get the result that I want.

I'm not as good sitting down when I'm not on the court of visualizing that put on the court, I feel like I can.

I can visualize it.

And maybe that's something that comes again with experience.

And, you know, I'm sure I couldn't do that very well or as well when I was a young coach.

But again, ultimately, what you want is it takes a prep, right.

So you got to be prepared with what you're going to do and be intentional about what you're trying to teach.

Then within the drill, you have to know what is it that I'm focusing on, what's important in the moment in this drill that I have to correct.

When I see a mistake, I have to praise when it's done well.

And then I kind of have to put some of the other things, maybe a little bit to the side.

And then finally I have to go back and I have be able to reflect on did this work and is it translating to an improved performance in the area that I'm looking at in a game?

And I think those are the steps to.

To running a good practice or creating a good drill or putting together a good practice plan.

It's prep, it's execution and focus in the moment, and then it's going back and reflecting.

Like, I've talked to so many coaches, Nick, that tell me that they've saved every practice plan they ever had from the time they were a guy like your age just starting out.

And whether they started out as a high school coach or they started out as a college assistant somewhere, and they kept all their practice plans and they still go back and they reflect on those and they take notes and all that kind of stuff.

And I think that's something that, again, if we're talking about advice for people starting out in their careers, I really feel like I've heard that from so many coaches that have been successful in their careers that the.

The note taking and reflecting after the fact or.

Or during the practice, making notes on your practice plan about, hey, this drill and what was good about it, maybe what didn't work about it, what tweaks could we make?

All that stuff, to me is super important because again, it's just you keep fine tuning and tweaking to try to get the results that you want.

Yeah.

And I think another important thing is consistency, because if you're not being consistent with the drills you do each week before games or even in the summer, and you kind of just are clunking a bunch of random drills together, which I think, like I said, I made the mistake last year of.

And it's like, well, how are we improving?

Like, we do like work on ball handling for two days and then we don't do it the rest of the year.

It's like, well, that's two days of wasted practice when we could have been doing something else, like rebounding, learning the offense, defense, pushing the ball in transition.

And so I think that was my big focus this year, being consistent.

And also just.

We talked about this too.

Just the way you coach, right?

Like if some days you're like, like a nutcase of a coach, yelling, screaming, saying they can't get water unless you make do this, this and that, and the next day you're all this like, nice, laid back coach.

It's, it's just terrible for the kids.

And you're not gonna get the most out of them either.

That's why I think consistency is a big part of it as well.

Yeah, two great points there.

I think consistency in who you are, it's really difficult as a player, or think about it in the business world, right?

If your boss one day is maniacally screaming at you and micromanaging every single task that you have and then the next day they, you don't see them and they don't follow up on any of the work that you've done, then when you show up on Wednesday after a Monday and Tuesday with those two polar opposites, you have no idea what you're getting and you're going to be on edge and you're probably not going to do your best work.

And I think players are the same way.

They have to know what you're getting.

If they know they're getting a screaming maniac, every day may not be the best for them, but they can at least adjust to it.

If they know they're getting a calm, easygoing person, then they're going to be more prepared for that.

It's when you have the fluctuation back and forth.

I think that's a really good point.

And then consistency as far as drills, it's funny that you talked about just kind of picking out random stuff.

I know that.

I think every coach in the world loves to scroll through Twitter, loves to scroll through Instagram or Tik Tok, or look at YouTube videos and pick out like, oh, I love this out of bounds play.

Or man, that's some great action there that we could incorporate into what we do.

And then I'll be watching a play.

I'll be like, oh, I love that inbounds play.

And then it's.

It ends up with the dunk to, like a 611 guy.

I'm like, yeah, I don't think that's really the type of team that I'm coaching.

Or there's just, again, I'm guilty of this all the time, of chasing the shiny object.

Like, I always want to try.

Oh, I saw this.

Let's try it.

But what you ultimately, I think come.

Have to come back to is there.

There's things that fit the style of what you're already doing.

You have to have a core philosophy of what you want to do.

And that starts again, let's say it's a high school program, right?

Your high school head coach has to have a philosophy of, this is the way we want to play.

And then it kind of filters down in levels from there, depending upon the age group, what they're capable of doing.

But you want everybody kind of to be on the same page.

We circle back to the coach Mackie at Brunswick, right?

That when you're in third grade and you're.

You're being taught the same terminology that he's going to use when you get to high school.

And I think that is critical when it comes to what you're talking about in terms of consistency.

That's not to say that you can't go out and find a really cool play on Twitter and put it in with your team and execute and run it, but if all you want to do is scroll social media, you can find a million things that might look good or might work or might be great for somebody, but you unfortunately can't do it all.

And so I think your point of consistency is well taken, that you've gotta figure out what it is that you're all about, and then you got to go out and execute.

And that's not always easy to do.

And I think especially when you're young in your career and you're still trying to figure out who you are, right.

As a coach, I think that's one of the things that it takes some time to.

To understand yourself.

And I think that's probably part of the process that you feel like you've gone through the last two years, right?

It's just kind of being reflective.

You talked about, in terms of talking to your dad and your grandfather about body language, but just that piece of it, or thinking about, hey, last year, I just grabbed too many random things and tried to put them in, and I Found out that that didn't work.

I think that's all part of the growth process, correct?

Oh, 100%.

And there's, there's plenty more, right.

Like, I could probably go on and on about the stuff I've learned and stuff I've tried to change.

Like, like even handing like late game situations.

Like I think last year we lost a few of those and can't exactly remember what our record was, but I think we had like nine or ten losses.

And then this year we had I think six losses and we won like three or four of those close games.

I feel like that's just learning aspect of it, like how to handle it differently.

What personnel was in.

Did I draw up a wacky play that they wouldn't know?

And like this year versus Brunswick, I just drew up like a UCLA screen, something very simple that we practiced and did beginning of the year.

And I think last year I would try to try and think of a play that I saw in the Duke Carolina game from two years ago, which they would have had no idea how to do.

It's so true.

And I think here's the other thing too, Nick, that I think is completely underrated.

And I remember the first person that told me this was Chris Oliver from Basketball Immersion, who's again, anybody who follows the game.

And he's got a great podcast and his website and information and he, Chris is all over the place.

But I remember he told me that he started out and he coached a ton of AAU games as a head coach and just getting the reps right.

You mentioned late game situations and there's nothing that replaces the reps of being a head coach.

Doesn't matter if you're coaching third grade basketball or you're coaching JV girls basketball or whatever level it is.

Every time that you're stepping out onto the court as the head coach, you are making decisions that impact your team and ultimately impact the outcome of the game.

And each time you make one of those decisions, you're growing and you're trying to improve and it's going to move you in the right direction as a coach in your career.

And so I guess my point is for any young coaches out there, if you get an opportunity to be a head coach of a travel team, an AAU team, if you want coaching to be your profession, look for those opportunities because they're all reps as a head coach.

I'll give you a good example from my own career, Nick.

I spent the first, whatever, 12 years of my career as the varsity assistant Coach.

So as a varsity assistant coach versus as a JV coach, I never made any decisions as a varsity assistant.

I gave suggestions, hey, let's get Steve in the game or hey, I think we should switch out of this zone or hey, let's run play X or, or I think we should think about that.

But ultimately I never had to make a decision.

And I remember there was one year that our JV coach took a head coaching job at a different high school and we didn't have anybody to replace him.

And so I coached the JV team that year and I was the varsity assistant.

And it took me four or five, six games to re orient myself to the fact that like I had to call time out, I had to make decisions about who to sub, I had to figure out what we were going to run after a timeout.

When the ball went out of bounds, I had to make the call of what out of bounds play we were going to run.

And because I hadn't had those reps in a while, it was really uncomfortable.

For a couple games, I was like, oh, I bet there's a, there's a lot going on here that I just didn't have to think about as an assistant coach.

And so again, advice out there to anybody who's starting their coaching career.

The more opportunities you get to coach as the head coach and make decisions, the more it's going to benefit you down the road.

Again, if you have aspirations of eventually being a head coach, whether that's at the high school or the college level, whatever, the more reps you have, and I don't care what level it is, those reps are valuable.

And I think that's what you're going to see in your career as you continue that, getting an opportunity to run your own team and make those decisions as a head JV coach, there's really a lot of benefit to that.

And I agree.

And I think one of the things I was most worried about was living with those decisions, right?

Like after the game when you lost and maybe you call a timeout the wrong time or you call the wrong set or you maybe started the press too early or foul too early when you're down by eight points with 1:30 left.

It's just that was my biggest fear, living with that because I'm very competitive.

And I also feel, and not feel bad, but feel like I let others down.

And when you coach like sometimes do let your team down and just how do you bounce back from that?

How do you learn from it and how do you gather that team back together.

And I feel like I'm learning.

That's difficult to do, but it's something you gotta deal with as a coach, and you just gotta fight through it every day.

You do.

That's a great way of saying it.

I will tell you that if you are the head coach.

In my experience, when I've been the head coach of a team, I take those losses way more personally and way harder than I do when I'm an assistant coach.

When I'm an assistant coach, I found it much easier to win, lose, and then put that game on the shelf and move forward with my life, move forward to the next game.

When I've been the head coach and it didn't matter if it was when Madeline was a third grader or when I was coaching a high school AAU team or coaching a high school team, those losses especially would stick with me the entire time until we played again and I got a chance to redeem myself as a.

As a coach.

And it's just.

I don't know that I think you figure out a way to deal with it, but if you're competitive and your name is attached to that team, you feel a responsibility to yourself and to your kid to do whatever it takes to be able to help your team to win.

And obviously, they.

That takes lots of different forms, and we've talked about a lot of them tonight.

But, yeah, you take it.

You take it really hard as a coach.

And I think you do have to, over the course of time, figure out how to deal with that competitiveness and not let it eat you up inside.

And I think what it comes down to, Nick, and this is, again, a piece of advice that I've learned from a lot of guys that have been on the podcast, and that is that ultimately, look, you want to win.

Games and wins and losses are important, and in many cases, that's the way that we're judged.

But ultimately, when you start shifting the purpose or your why for the reasons behind coaching, and you think about the relationships and building a great experience for the kids that are part of your team or your program, then it becomes a lot easier to move forward from a loss and figure out what's the next thing that I have to do to continue to provide that great experience and to continue to give our team the best chance to win.

And again, just like I've said before, that's something that's a lot easier to say than it is to do.

It's a lot easier for us to talk about doing that on a podcast than it is to actually figure out ways to get over a loss and, and move on, especially when you're competitive.

Yeah, 100.

I agree.

And, and I don't know if this comes off as selfish, but like we, when like we do come off a loss in jv, like last year and this year, I think something I found valuable and, and that kind of felt, felt good that we had kind of like this team is that when I would go to practice the next day, no one was like down on themselves.

No one was like, oh, we got, we just lost, went to practice.

Like, yeah, like, like I probably cared more that we lost, but.

And also, I'm not saying they don't care, but I just feel like they came to practice and like they trusted me as a coach that we would figure it out and that they trust their teammates.

It wasn't the blame game.

It wasn't like someone shot at three and said, oh, if he made that three would have won yesterday.

Like there was none of that.

And I feel like that helped me as a coach and kind of be like, you know what?

At the end of the day it shows basketball.

And the most important thing to me is seeing that these kids are having fun after getting their basketball or sorry in their butt whip by 30.

Kids are much more resilient than I think we give them credit for.

And the other thing I will say is that it took me a while because as a player I cared so much about.

Took me a while to come to the understanding as a coach that not every player cares about it as much as I did as a player or as much as I do as a coach.

Like my first year or two, when we'd lose a game and we'd be on the bus and kids would be laughing and joking around like we as a coaching staff used to get so mad and angry about that.

How can you lose a game and then be on the bus joking and laughing and then as you mature and you realize one, that kids all handle winning and losing in different ways, they don't all handle it the same way that I would have handled it.

And then the other piece of it is that, and you just said it, that there, there is more.

As important as a game might seem in the moment, there, there is more to life than basketball.

And that's not to say that you should get on the bus laughing and joking after every loss and haha.

And not taking things seriously, but there is something to be said for kids being able to bounce back and as you said, show up for practice the next day and have confidence that their coach and their teammates and themselves that they're going to figure out, hey, what do we have to do to be able to be ready to play the next game?

And I don't have to sulk as a player for four days until our next game just to prove that I care whether we win or lose the game.

And I think that's something that, again, I learned over time.

It's not something that I knew intuitively because I just looked at everything through the lens of myself as a player when I was a young coach.

And eventually you come to realize that everybody handles things differently, and you have to, again, be able to experience that in the moment, your way.

And you have to allow, I think, to some degree, you have to allow the players to be able to experience it in their own way as well.

Yeah, I agree with that, too.

And I think the other kind of aspect of it is how do you learn from it and how do you kind of deal with adversity?

Right.

And that's just in everyday life because, like, right now I'm going through job interviews and I didn't get the last two.

I mean, I could just be like, you know what, Maybe this isn't for me, but instead I'm trying to be, well, trying to be positive and also learn from those interviews that I could carry on.

So the third one that I have coming up, and I feel like that translates to basketball after a tough loss.

How do you respond?

How do you go through adversity or even in game situations when teams go on an 8, 0 run, I think that's what practice also prepares teams for, is that when teams do get ahead and you have a rough stretch, how do you respond?

And I feel like that's a mental toughness as well.

And I feel like that's also a challenge that coaches sometimes encounters.

Hey, how do I get my teams mentally tougher?

And I feel like that helps what we're talking about, battle through adversity, especially when things aren't going your way.

Yeah, there's no doubt that that's a life lesson, that when you think about what you want, your players, or in my case, as a parent, what you want your kids to get out of sports.

And there's all kinds of research and things that they ask people, well, what do you hope your kid gets out of sports?

And they mentioned just some of the things that we talked about.

Right.

Resilience, hard work, the ability to get along with teammates, building relationships, all that stuff.

And yet, if you Sit in the stands.

Nobody's angry or upset or cheering for resilience or hard work.

We're all cheering for performance and wins and losses.

And so sometimes I think you have to be able to take that step back and realize that what you're doing as a coach, it reverberates for many, many, many years after you're actually interacting with your team.

Those lessons like you talked about, of adversity and fighting through and look, real life, not everything goes perfectly right.

You can work super hard, you can do everything right.

And it still may not work perfectly right.

You still may not get that job after the interview that you prepared for and did your very best to be ready to perform.

It happens.

That's what happens in life.

Not everything works out.

And most of the time, if you put in hard work and you do what you're supposed to do, you're probably going to get a good outcome, but you're certainly not guaranteed of it.

And sports is the same way.

You can prepare for an opponent, you can work as hard as you possibly can in practice, and you can play the game and you end up losing.

Well, that happens.

And so then you figure out, how do we deal with that?

And that's a lesson that we may not know whether our kids or our players learn that until they're 30 years old.

And we continue to learn.

And that's, I think, what sports is supposed to be all about.

And so as a coach, those are the lessons that you hope that your kids take away beyond just, hey, what was the score of this game?

And obviously, we all like to win.

And it's more fun when you're winning than when you're losing.

And in the moment, that's really important.

But like we've said a bunch of times here, the impact that you can have as a coach is huge.

And being able to use the game of basketball to do it, I always say, is a privilege that we can use the game to.

To be able to teach and have an impact on the kids that are in front of us in whatever scenario that we get to do it as a, as a basketball coach.

So, all right, we are coming up on an hour and a half, Nick, so I want to ask you a final two part question.

Part one, when you look ahead over the next year or two, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?

And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do every day as a coach and go to practice and be around your team, what brings you the most joy?

So Your biggest challenge and then your biggest joy.

I would say my biggest challenge.

Good question.

Let me start with the joy first and get a little positive.

I think the joy is honestly the kids themselves.

And I know I've mentioned that a few times, but it's true.

And I, like, I don't know if I just got lucky, but the last two years, JV and varsity, I think the kids themselves, they're great, and they're even, like, they're good basketball players too.

Like, I kept saying, like, they want to be coached, and that's what, that's

what we're there for.

Right?

And if you get a group that wants to do what your job title is, I feel like that's perfect.

It makes my job easier.

And I honestly love coming to practice.

We just had our last JV game, and it's gonna suck.

Leaving work, going, oh, wait, I have to turn left and not right anymore.

I've been doing it for the past five months.

That's really gonna suck.

And I even told the players this, that that's how much of a positive impact they had on me as a coach.

And I think that gives all the credit into the world to even the parents for raising such great kids.

And then biggest challenge.

I think I said this already, but dealing with the consequences is still gonna be, like, lingering in the back of my head.

Even though that I've tried to deal with it.

I just, I feel like every decision I make, it could be the wrong one.

And then even, like, during the game and I'm dropping plays.

Like, like, today happened.

I'm drop a play and I erase sticks.

I'm like, wait, crap, this might not work.

And then I'm like, I just gotta have confidence.

Like, gotta stop, like, doubting myself.

And like, I tell the players that all the time.

Have confidence.

Stop downing yourself.

Like, it's basketball, it's quick.

You can't make a decision, then stop.

And I feel like that's something that I'm probably going to lack.

So I think, to answer your question, my biggest challenge is how am I going to deal with that?

And like, we were talking about, how am I going to prepare myself so that I don't make those mistakes?

Well said.

And I think it's for the stage of your career that you're in, I think it's a hundred percent a tremendous goal to be able to look forward to and say, how can I make sure that I'm.

I'm getting, that I'm being confident, right?

And I think that comes from the prep work that we talked about and coming in every day prepared and the more prepared you are the eventually you start to be able to wear away that doubt because you know you put the time in and do you got the experience and all those kinds of things.

So great answer.

All right, before we get out I want to give you a chance to share how can people connect with you, find out more about what you're doing, share, email, social media, whatever you feel comfortable with.

And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.

Yeah, I'll skip my phone number so I'm not big social media person.

It's 216-318-8759.

Like Mike's mentioned, if you're young coach out there that maybe you're deciding if you want to coach or not, you just give me a call and I don't want to like like force people out there to start coaching, but I'll give my insight, positives and negatives and answer the questions to the best of my ability.

Perfect.

Nick cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight.

Really appreciate it.

I look forward to seeing you here on the girls tournament run, however long it may last, moving forward.

And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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