You are listening to the we need to Talk About Oscar podcast.

And this is our conversation with Lauren Mering and Lillian Carrier, writer, director, and the star of Horse Girls, premiering at this year's Tribeca.

There are comedies where I feel like that's also done right.

You can make autism the butt of the joke, but like, it can't always be the butt of the joke.

And then on top of that, it's touching on these subjects that are so heavy in such this beautiful way.

And it's totally through Margarita's eyes, his whole story.

Hobby horsing videos are going viral on social media and things because everyone sees it and is like, this is crazy looking.

And for me it was like, what's funny is it's, it's popular now with TikTok and everything, but I wrote the story seven years ago back when not a single person had heard of this and I had just found like these niche YouTube videos about it.

Actually, just so you know, if all goes well, the three of us chat might actually be the 100th episode for me.

No way.

That's amazing.

That's awesome.

Not to get hopes or expectations too high, but yeah, let's hope for this one to turn out as well, special as possible.

Oh, that's amazing.

That's so cool.

Congrats on 100 episodes too.

Thank you so much.

I guess to start with the obvious, how did you two first connect?

Lauren, how did you find Lilian for the role?

Lillian, how did the role fight you?

Yeah, do you want to start, Lillian?

Sure.

So it was just like the normal audition process for me that my manager found it and, and I'm always looking for the authentic casting roles and I auditioned and I ended up getting the part and it was like a super cool audition process.

Like when I got the script, I was so excited.

This was a project.

I'm like, I want to be a part of this.

Because sometimes you're just like, this isn't the best representation, but it's something.

This one, it touched me.

I was crying, I was feeling things when I read it and I was like, yes, please let me get a chance to try this one.

Yeah.

And it was like a no brainer.

When I saw her tape, it was incredible.

And you know, we, we casted a super wide net.

You know, we were, we were seeing people with all types of disabilities and, you know, so many incredible actresses in general.

And I just will never forget, you know, Lillian was a name that, you know, I immediately said in my producers had also seen her tape and they Were like, she's a top on our list as well.

You know, we'll call her back, let's see how it goes.

And I mean the, the callback scene was a scene on the trampoline.

And I will never forget Lillian had like rigged her iPhone so that when she did the scene she was laying down on the ground and did it, you know, as if she was laying on a trampoline.

And I just remember I almost like forgot I was watching an audition, you know, it was, it was over zoom and it was just incredible.

And I, I mean from that point, you know, we upload, I uploaded the callbacks to my team.

I was like, I'm not gonna say who I think should be the part, but I'm just curious who you guys think.

And they're like, oh, it's a no brainer, it's her.

You know, she was just so incredible and could handle this role.

I mean we asked so much of this role, you know, and, and so much of her and you know, not just for the authentic representation, but her willingness to do stunts and do night shoots with a horse and you know, learn how to do this very strange but unique sport of hobby horsing.

And, and she took everything in her stride.

It was just incredible.

And you know, I was always nervous about who we would cast just in general because the role was, I felt very, going to be very difficult and required a lot.

And then she just qualmed all my fears the moment I saw her tape.

So it was pretty amazing.

And I turn to you now, Lillian.

Even though you're looking for authenticity in your roles, there is of course a difference between authenticity and a more stereotypical autistic person's role.

So what was it about Marguerite that called to you?

Well, for one, she was just so complex and layered and sometimes they, when writing autism, it's stuck on this like one dimensional sort of thing.

There's comedic moments, but she was never the butt of, of the joke.

It wasn't like haha, she said something silly and funny and that's funny.

She said something socially inappropriate.

So hahaha, like it wasn't about that.

Like yes, she does have those moments.

But like you feel the heartbreak she has when like she says something inappropriate and people laugh and people react not the way she wants.

Like you're in her head and it's not, oh, look at the weird character.

But like of course she's funny and she has humor and she's silly and there's, there's moments of that which are brought in this beautiful way where I felt it was real and it wasn't like, making fun of autism in a wrong way.

And like, all there are comedies where I feel like that's also done right.

You can make autism the butt of the joke, but, like, it can't always be the butt of the joke.

And then on top of that, it's touching on these subjects that are so heavy in such this beautiful way.

And it's told Margarita's eyes, this whole story, because there's so many stories.

It's told through the parents eyes.

It's told like, oh, my God, look at the weirdo type shows, even when they are the main character in this one.

Like, I really felt like the world is going to see through autism's eyes, through Margarita's eyes, this movie, and you'll really get into her perspective.

And I really, really like that.

And I felt like it was done so well and I wanted to be a part of that.

Yeah.

And as for you, Lauren, there is, of course, the margarita on the paper, the page, and then there is the margarita, as in Lillian is there in front of you.

So what was your approach to directing Lilian?

Where did you have to take the two of you's collaboration so that those authentic moments could feel natural rather than performative?

Yeah, definitely.

That was a huge.

I mean, that was a huge part of kind of.

You said it perfectly.

Her on the page versus her, you know, on the screen.

And Lillian embodying this character, I don't think.

I mean, truly, thanks to Lillian and her advocacy and her experience doing this and her patience and willingness to always explain and come from her perspective.

You know, I almost feel like there was not a scene that we didn't talk about, you know, and.

And, you know, collaborating with and even down to things like, oh, my gosh, you know, I.

I will never forget when we were doing the scene where you help your mom take a bath, and, you know, you had said, like, I like, my hands are going to be wet for a long time.

Like, that's going to be a little bit like just kind of overstimulating and distraction and just these things where I'm like, things I would never think of.

And I was so grateful anytime she pointed that out.

And then at the same time, what, you know, Lillian was talking about keeping it grounded in her perspective is, you know, Lillian always would come to me with, you know, hey, let's make sure this doesn't come off a certain way, or we were talking about with someone else, the scene where she makes an Announcement, spoiler alert.

Where she says, like, my mom who died two hours ago on the trampoline.

And, you know, Lillian was like, that should not.

I don't want that to feel like, you know, this stereotypical autism person who can't feel empathy and, you know, says this as like this huge comedic moment or anything like that.

It was, you know, she would give her perspective and be like, you know, yeah, this is how she's reacting in this moment.

But we can't make it so that it's just like, consistently this, like, comedic, like, oh, she says these off putting things or whatever.

You know, we.

We really wanted to make sure tonally that everything was aligned and.

And like Lillian said, it never felt like you were laughing at her.

If there was something comedic, you were laughing with her.

And I loved, like, you know, the bluntness and that, you know, Coach says, like, you think a class of, you know, gymnastics rejects and dance team wannabes is something to make fun of.

And she goes, no, I.

I think that's really sad, you know, and.

And she's so.

She's so genuine.

You know, it's like these.

I just wanted to write a character who, rather than having a filter, just says the.

The truth and is blunt about it.

And I loved the way that, you know, Lillian brought all of that or two.

It was very collaborative the whole time, which was amazing.

That was all I could have asked for, honestly.

I'm sure it must have been an incredibly extensive research that went into the story itself.

Plus, as far as I know, level of personal element as well.

But at the same time, just by talking with the two of you for 10 minutes now, this feels like such a genuine creative partnership between the two of you.

So did this collaboration shape the story in any way?

Were there elements that emerged from working together that might not have existed otherwise?

I think so.

I think I definitely had my input on things.

There were things that I was like, I don't think this is going to come off well.

I don't think we should do it.

There are times that I was like, I'll show you what I mean.

And I went forward just like, oh, I didn't see.

See it that way.

And it.

And definitely we've had a few other autistic people involved in the project.

Alex Plank and Chloe Estelle.

Alex Plank is a associate producer on the project and he's autistic himself.

And then Chloe was brought on to help support and make sure my needs were met so I could do my job.

And she gave some inputs on things that she was seeing on screen.

And her title was Autism Sensitivity Coordinator.

That's the title we had on set to make.

And I think having multiple sets of eyes, like, with the identity of the character, I think really helped in making sure that we told this story right.

And everyone saw, like, that the pieces came together.

So, yeah, I definitely think.

And Lauren was so great in, like, listening to us doing that.

And I think that's a really important thing to have when you're creating these stories.

Is.

Is, like, nothing about us without us is so important when you're telling a story to bring someone on who you listen to if you want to tell their story.

Yeah, yeah.

And just the trust as well, you know, And Lillian, like, allowing, you know, someone who obviously, I'm like, I.

I as.

Who doesn't have this experience and being.

Her willingness to constantly speak up.

And then it also culminated in these beautiful ways of, like, even down to the tiniest details of, like, the production design of her room.

I mean, Lillian went above and beyond, you know, and she didn't have to.

It was.

Cause she wanted to.

You know, it was like, let's.

Like, I just remember even down to the little, like, tip on the pencil to help counterbalance it, when you're, like, writing in the journal, there were just these tiny details that, you know, would really make others feel so represented and seen that most of us would probably not even catch, you know, and.

And it really just helped build out the character in her world and, you know, down to like, even just, like, the, like, sensory things.

And, you know, like, I was so.

Adamant about that sunflower lanyard.

Yes.

I was gonna say the Sunflower Land.

Because I have not seen that on any representation.

And, like, if you know what a sunflower lanyard is, like, it's so important to, like, have.

I feel like that's gonna be something that people are like, yes, I have one of those.

Like, it.

Yeah.

There were things like that Margarita can't tie her shoes.

And I was like, this seems like a really important thing.

Let's do something with that.

And, like, I was very adamant about, like, adding all those things in.

And we gave her the laces that you don't need to tie, and we added all those elements in.

And I was like, let's keep these consistent things that even though we don't talk about it, this is something that she goes through.

This is something that she has in her life.

So it's.

I think, with autism, like, there are, like, little pieces that people don't see.

And to have those I was like, every project I've been on, when I included those, I'm always getting responses of like, oh, my God, I have that.

And I saw a character with that.

And that's so cool.

Like, because we don't get that too often, being disabled or autistic, like, to actually see someone with those tools on screen just makes you feel so seen.

And I wanted to put as many as I could in this project.

Yeah.

Because when it's authentic, it also becomes, with that, relatable.

That's an incredible part of it.

Yeah.

From a storytelling perspective, there is something incredibly fascinating to me about not just only choosing hobby horse riding over horse riding, but specifically hobby horses over life horses.

What does that distinction offer you narratively, Lauren?

As in the difference between, for example, a vessel you have complete control over versus alive being a life horse that, of course can be trained, but at the same time, of course has its own will.

Yeah, I mean, that.

That's very true.

The first distinction was just.

Yeah, having the full control was great.

And honestly, I mean, this story for me was always about I.

I just wanted you to fall in love with a character who, at the beginning, or even, you know, or the hobby horse and girls in general, like, at the beginning, you.

You want to laugh because not at them, but because it looks so ridiculous.

And I think that, you know, that's why so many of these hobby horsing videos are going viral on social media and things, because everyone sees it and is like, this is crazy looking.

And for me, it was like, what's funny is it's.

It's popular now with TikTok and everything, but I wrote the story seven years ago back when, like, not a single person had heard of this, and I had just found, like, these niche YouTube videos about it.

And I fell in love with these girls because I loved how they just did not care that people often didn't take them seriously.

And not in a way of they didn't care, but they.

They didn't let it affect them, you know, and.

And they found their people.

And I love when, you know, everyone can have kind of like a niche, strange love of something, and it brings you together, you know, like this.

This shared passion for a hobby or a sport.

And I loved that, you know, initially, the girls don't quite accept her, but I wanted it to be like, look, she.

She's accepted just like them at the end and just like her finding her group, this, like, kind of like, chosen friend group.

And yeah, I think I just wanted to kind of, you know, Put a face and humanize a horse girl.

And.

And I wanted it to be like, look, we all are our own brand of weird, you know, and.

And in the best way.

Like, I.

I think it being normal is.

Is overrated, you know, so I'm like, we're all.

Everyone has their thing that they're obsessed with or, you know, their niche little thing that they love.

And.

And I just wanted to explore that through hobby horsing.

And, you know, we had even had calls with some girls who were actually the US Hobby Horsing Committee.

Some of the girls and their moms, because they were like 11 to 13ish, and they were throwing like the very first US hobby horsing competition on their own.

Like, these young girls and their moms were putting on this competition and they were just so excited to do it.

And talking with the moms, they're like, we're just so glad, you know, that, you know, all our daughters found each other and.

And they're so close through this sport.

It's just like any other sport to me, you know, so it was just such a fun world to dive into.

And performance wise for you.

Lillian, talk to me about those stunts.

Yeah, that was an adventure to get into, for sure that.

I mean, it's a sport and it was something once I learned about.

I was looking at it, I was like, let's see what I can do.

And I was like, really practicing and working on it because I knew I would be on set for hours at a time doing this galloping and jumping and like, I'm not in shape at all to be able to do that.

And, yeah, my legs got so strong over the course of the months we were filming and just doing that constantly.

It's impressive what these girls can do, honestly.

But it was.

It was a fun adventure to go on and try this out.

And I love that this story, like, Margarita didn't have to be an expert in it, right?

It was something that she's trying out, having fun, being silly with, and she's not actually that good at, which I feel like is so real, right?

That being disabled, there's so many things we're not good at, but we love.

But, like, I just think people in general just like, love doing things that sometimes we're not good at.

And to just not have that magic story of, oh, my God, now she's the best in the world at this in a week.

Like, it's not realistic, but, like, to join this group of people and just be like, we're just having so Much fun just trying it.

I think that part was beautiful to do.

I love that.

As a shameless geek, I have to ask this.

I just have to.

Not in a sport accessory, but rather a film prop sense.

In the two of you's experience, how does the customizability of a hobby horse compare to that of a lightsaber on a Star wars or a wand on a Harry Potter set?

That was so fun to learn about was we had watched this documentary called Hobby Horse Revolution, which I highly recommend to anyone, where it opened our eyes to.

Yeah, the accessories, the customization.

Like you could get little.

Like I remember seeing.

Oh, now I can't remember what the name is, but there's like these little blankets you could tie over the horses for like when they're resting, you know.

Or like they would have these different customizations and like girls, if you go on Etsy, oh my gosh, that's another world of girls, like, who would not only create the hobby horses themselves, like stuff them, sew them, but like customizing down to, you know, the manes and like, like charms in the manes and like things like that where you could really get very customizable with these horses.

And you know, it's like they, they have a bond with them and, and they, they choose them and they put so much care into them and it didn't matter if it was like, you know what, more of like a toy looking one from Walmart, handcrafted one made by some girl in the Netherlands.

You know, it, it was always they.

I think every person like very uniquely made it their own.

And what's funny is like all our girls on set, same thing.

By the end of the set, they all were like, do we get to keep them?

Do we get to keep them?

Because they're like, they're, they're our friends now.

They're our babies, you know, and they like, it was just so fun.

And they all would like, they named them and it was, it was just hilarious because.

Yeah, it was like you're working with them for so long and you grow attached to them.

You know, it's like any good old stuffed animal friend that you have growing up.

Yeah, all the girls on set named their horses and so we had horses in rehearsal and then we had horses on set.

So they were so sad when they had to return their rehearsal horses and then they got the new ones on set and they're like, oh my God.

But now we have to come up with new names.

The whole journey of like them getting attached to these things that like, because they.

And they all did.

They had, like, gave their sticks, like, personality, and it was so interesting.

And.

And also coming up and talking to the props and set team about how they built Cheeseburger and talking with them of that.

So they had, like, this giant stuffed horse that's, like, rideable for kids, and they chopped off the head, and that's what they made cheeseburger out of.

And then they painted it and made it beautiful.

And I was like, I think this is actually amazing, and I think this should be part of Margarita's story.

And I was like, there's two things that Margarita is really into in this story is Halloween and horses.

So we gotta have that headless horse in her bedroom.

And we'll see it in her bedroom that it's sitting.

She uses a little stand next to her chair that there's just this headless horse that Cheeseburger's head came from.

And I thought that was amazing that they did that, and they made it so cool.

Well, Lilian, Lauren, once again, thank you so, so much for your time.

And I must say, for me, this absolutely lived up to the expectations.

So, yeah, this was absolutely lovely.

Thank you so much for having us.

This is great.

The film is incredible as well.

Oh, thank you so much.

Thank you.

And Congrats on your 100th episode.

Maybe no promises now more.

Definitely.

So, yeah.

Yes.

Awesome.

Thank you so, so much, Aaron.