Welcome to Barnyard Language. We are Katie and Arlene, an Iowa sheep farmer and an Ontario dairy farmer with six kids, two husbands, and a whole lot of chaos between us. So kick off your boots, reheat your coffee, and join us for some Barnyard Language, honest talk about running farms and raising families. In case your kids haven't already learned all the swears from being in the barn, it might be a good idea to put on some headphones or turn down the volume. While many of our guests are professionals, they aren't your professionals. If you need personalized advice, consult your people. Hello everyone and welcome to Season 3 of the Barnyard Language Podcast. Season 3! We're actually, like, continuing to do the thing that we started, which, I think for Katie and I, is an impressive accomplishment. We had an idea and we followed through. These are the critical steps. And we keep doing it. That's all Arlene. No, it's not stop giving me all the credit. I have never edited an episode So it wouldn't have come out if it wasn't for you. So we each have our strengths, right? That's true. It's kind of a chicken and the egg thing. Yes, exactly Yeah, we each do the things and then ta da. There's a podcast. So anyway, thank you for coming back Thank you for listening and for all your support in the last two years and we're really excited about all the guests that we have already talked to for season three and the people that we're talking about talking to and trying to get Scheduled and do all of that kind of stuff. So we've got a lot of fun people coming up But normally we do an update and we have like the whole month of August where we didn't talk to you guys about what we were Doing so Katie what happened in August? Way back when uh That was like a month ago, Arlene. That is true. Um, actually it was like six weeks ago now. A month and a half at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it was hot. And then it got hotter. And then it got hotter. And then the kids went back to school. While it was still hot? And then... Well, it was still hot. Yeah. Yeah. They, uh, actually got early outs the first three days of school because it was so damn hot that even with the air conditioning, the school was not safe. Ooh, fancy. Their school has air conditioning. Yeah. Well, only the elementary school does. Does. So, I guess probably they were slightly concerned about the high schoolers as well. Um, contrary to popular opinion, teenagers are actually people. And they are also, um, susceptible to things like dying. So, that's a thing. Um, The one real excitement, I guess, was that my husband won tickets to see Robert O'Keene in San Antonio on about two weeks notice. So we very impulsively flew to Texas for a long weekend. And, uh, Saw Robert Earl Keene. With children or without? Without, thank God. Oh, no children. I love my children, but the idea of the boy child on the San Antonio Riverwalk, for those not acquainted, there is no fencing or railing or anything to keep people on a walk and out of the river.

And although the river is apparently less than five feet deep, um, I still would not want to be fishing my children out of it repeatedly. It would probably be very tempting. So, yeah. Uh, we saw the Alamo, which was cool. And, Um, I bought some new cowboy boots, which was cool. And we ate some barbecue, which was awesome, and I drank a lot of margaritas, which was amazing. As you do. And by a lot, I mean it was like in one sitting, but it was 32 ounces, which is a great idea. Did you get one of those giant commemorative cups or you just drank a really big one? No, but they served it in a shaker. Okay. And it was one of those where part of being an adult is remembering that just because you're really thirsty and just because the margarita tastes really good does not mean that the tequila has magically vanished from being in the margarita. Right. And that you should slow the fuck down, drink some water, and wait till your food comes before you hammer down any more. Got it. So it wasn't just the brain freeze. Or you will regret it later. Yeah, no, it was a very good margarita though. My... Parents were both here visiting this weekend, which was interesting. And my aunt, my dad, and my aunt both live in western Pennsylvania, and my dad had never been here to visit. So they drove out, and my mom drove up, and we took family photos, and had a whole house full of people, which was fun, but also a lot, because we got back from Texas Tuesday night. And people started showing up Friday morning. Right. And so for clarification, your mom and dad are not together. No. So this was a visit where they were hanging out, but haven't been in the same place for a while. Like decades? Um, this was the second time in my life that I've spent more than a meal. Together with them. No, my dad was not in attendance was not able to attend my wedding, right? Yeah, so this was a Was a whole thing Yeah My kids I think now believe that they do have a second grandfather. There's been a lot of arguing About it because it's been a few years since we've been able to visit with you know The Cove it and the farm and the jobs and the kids Yeah, yeah So that was good, but trying to do that much travel and that much visiting and, uh, work and the farm and, and, and, and, you know, two little kids. Uh, we also bought a new car last month, which was exciting. Um, I don't think either of us would have said that we would ever actually purchase a new vehicle, but with the prices of used vehicles right now, a new vehicle was, Very competitively priced. Let's put it that way. Yeah, it used to be that buying used you'd get a deal and now it doesn't even seem like that really is a thing so much. Yeah, so our car has a thousand miles on it and we put all but I think twelve of those on ourselves. So that was pretty cool. Um, and it was a new joy that neither of us had ever experienced to just hop in the car to drive to the airport in Minneapolis without Any thought as to how well our vehicle might do in that circumstance. Um, that was a nice change of pace to not have to concern ourselves with whether it was a bad idea to make a three hour drive. But did you think about whether it might get stolen from the parking lot of the airport? Because it was actually a new car this time. I didn't actually, but there was enough gravel dust on it that it doesn't look new. Right, yeah, it didn't look quite as nice as some of the ones beside it. We unfortunately did already let our children in it, so it does not smell new or look particularly new at this point. It happens fast. Yes, it really does, but that was enjoyable. Uh, what's been up in your world, Earline? Yeah, so like you said, August seems like a long time ago, but yes, my oldest moved away.

So I know we've been talking about this for a while, but she moved to university. So that was exciting for her and a bit sad for my husband and I, of course, the boys People, a few people have asked what her brothers think, and I think sometimes they notice that she's gone. Um, I was going to say, have they noticed that she's gone, or? Some of the, some of the time, yeah. I mean, she does spend a lot of time working. Um, or, you know, she has, she can drive, or she's, she could be out with friends, or sometimes she's in her room, or whatever, and so. There are sometimes days that go by where their paths don't necessarily cross all that often. Um, but I think they've noticed that she's gone. So they're not too distraught about it. But, um, yeah, my husband and I are definitely missing her a lot. But it's fun to, uh, To get caught up with what she's doing and get pictures and texts and stuff. So it is nice to be in the cell phone era where we can kind of be in touch whenever we want and FaceTime and all that kind of stuff. So we went on Labor Day weekend, um, just my husband and daughter and I and uh, we moved her in. Just the, just the three of us, which was both a logistical in terms of having room for all the things in the minivan and also just time wise, it felt like having her brothers around would mean that things were rushed or they might be, you know, impatient to do other things when that was kind of the main task. So we were able to spend lots of time helping her set up a room and go to Wal Mart and grab the last meal. That's a few things that she forgot or, or things that she wanted to wait until she saw what the room looked like before she bought, things like that. So yeah, it was a really nice weekend that we got to spend together. And then we left her there and we, um, visited friends on the way home. So that was nice too, to kind of soften the blow a little bit. And we're getting used to, uh, having her being a little further away. The rest of August feels like it was a lot of same as what I was saying in July, cow shows. So there was several fairs and. Um, our county hosting show and things like that in there, we did get a few days off. We didn't really get a vacation this year, but we went and stayed one night at my parents cottage and we went to a water park another day. So just little things to kind of break up the monotony of milk cows, feed people. Peacocks. That, that feels like it just is on a bit of a hamster wheel sometimes. Did lots of swimming, because there's lots of lakes and small beaches and things around here. So the boys are being the stretch of ages that they are. Sometimes it's hard to find activities they all enjoy, but they're 8, 12, and 15, and they all like to swim still. So that's something that Probably three or four, sometimes five, depending how hot it was, days a week, we would go to the local beach or one of the other lakes nearby and get some swimming in, so. Or our lovely neighbors who let us use their pool. That's a bonus too. We can just walk across the road. So that is a bonus And they were busy cutting grass and doing barn chores and that kind of stuff My 15 year old has been learning how to drive a little bit. So that's a thing that we're working on He's gonna take some extra support. So we found a Kind of a semi retired driving instructor who has experience working with people who have Exceptionalities and so she's been working with him on learning how to drive So we actually have an extra brake pedal in our minivan, which is good for for us But also for people who want to play practical jokes who might be sitting in the passenger seat of our minivan It's happened a few times But yeah, that's an added bonus of doing it kind of privately and on the side and being able to find someone who is willing to work with us on that. So, that's been exciting and a little scary, but another step along the way, right? There's got to be a special place in heaven for driving instructors. And especially folks who retire and then choose to do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's definitely not an easy job and you have to pretend that you're calm and chill about it. Yeah, I think those are the kind of the main things for August. Um, So our guest for this week is a returning guest, which is exciting. She was one of our very first few guests on the podcast and we're excited to be able to talk to her again. Um, another thing that we want to let people know about is that we're starting to dabble in the world of trying to actually make a bit of money or at least cover our costs is more, more like it. And when it comes to making the podcast, so for our American listeners, if you're a fan of brooder toys, like Katie is, we now have a code that you can use. So if you're going to buy a brooder toys for your kids for a birthday or Christmas or any occasion, and you live in the States, you can use the code that we're going to put in the show notes and we'll have it on our social media as well. Just click that code. It's not a discount code, but if you're going to buy the stuff anyway. Then we get a little cut of the money on that. So that is exciting for us. And as the year goes on, we're hoping to get some sponsors. So you might end up hearing some commercials on here, but know that we're only going to work with people that we use their product, like their product, or they have similar values to us in terms of being in part of the egg family space. So that's what we're looking for. And if you have a company and you'd like to sponsor us or talk to us or hear an ad on our show. Then you can, uh, get in touch, because we would be happy to talk to you about that. As far as the Bruder toys, I can put in a very personal plug, I buy a lot of them. Um, they do tend to be a little spendier than some of the others, but they're a lot better built. And my personal favorite part, they sell replacement parts. So when your kid does like my kid and puts so many miles on the excavator that the tracks stretch and fall off, you can buy replacement tracks. You can buy replacement Forklift forks for all the times that those get lost. Um, they sell replacement steering wheels. Their little people are actually jointed in a way that they can, uh, you know, fit any equipment, unlike the GI Joe that we tried who did not fit. Um, And they generally seem to be a nice company, and they have a lot of little YouTube videos that are child friendly. And equipment that actually is modeled after real farm equipment, which is nice too. It's not, it actually has functionality and is authentic because we know that our little carpet farmers are big on authenticity. If it's not the right equipment, they're going to have something to say about it. Oh yes. Oh yes. If you are not blessed with a child who is very detail oriented, um, I can send you some videos of my kids. Uh, it is very important to them that their toys be accurate. Everything is just so. Alright, well we will introduce our guest for this week, and thanks for joining us again. Thanks for coming back. So today we are talking to Jane Paul, who was one of our very first guests on the podcast way back when we started and lives not all that far away from Eastern, from me in Eastern Ontario. So Jane, you know that we start our interview with the same question, but things might have changed since the last time. So we'll ask you again, what are you growing? So, we're the older generation now. I'm not quite sure when that happened, but we are now the old folks on the farm. So, our farm is succeeding to the next generation.

Uh, we have a big, well, maple syrup keeps the whole farm going. So, uh, that's the big one. It's the money maker in here. Um, when I was, more a part of the farm. We also did a little bit of cash crop in there and we had beef cattle as well. So that's sort of what we are right now. Uh, we're sitting back, still waiting for these golden years that are supposed to be coming. Haven't found them yet, but, uh, we're sitting back watching, uh, the younger folk take over and just going in and giving our, our, our really sage advice in there. Right. Sure. Yeah, they need it once in a while. And since we last talked, are you also a grandparent? Is that true? I am a grandparent. Now, we stole some grandchildren early on. Um, so we, we've always had lots of kids around here. Uh, but my middle child, my eldest daughter, uh, had a little girl who is now coming on 15 months and I gotta tell ya, it is wonderful. And she is an outdoors farm kid already, right from the get go. Not that she has much of a choice with her two parents, I guess. So they're nearby? They are. They're close enough, they're far enough that we can't see what they're doing. They're about 15 minutes away. Um, but they're close enough that, uh, we see lots of each other. And we get to have her on Fridays, which is wonderful. Oh, that's a good balance. Not all day, every day, but uh, lots of exposure too.

Absolutely. So, you have a ton of experience, both in parenting and working with children in your job with the, well now it's called the Ontario, or Early On, formerly the Ontario Early Years Centre. Um, so Jane is a parent educator and has also been a playgroup facilitator and has done lots of work with families in our area. So, it's kind of always hard to know where to start when... I talk to Jane because I want to ask her a million and one questions, but today we're going to try and focus our discussions around Sibling relationships, because we're going into summer at the time that we're recording. I'm not exactly sure when this is going to come out, but whether or not this is going to come out during your summer break or someone else's summer break, or maybe in September when the kids are finally going back to school. But there always seems to be a lot of opportunities for, uh, sibling relationship issues to happen with, uh, little people in our houses and even not so little people. So I was going to start with one of the. questions that a lot of people seem to have when they're growing their family, and that's about how to prepare young or not so young children for the arrival of a baby in their home, however it happens to arrive in their house. So what are some of your tips that you have for that transition when you're growing your family and a new baby is coming? I think that's a great question because it really goes back to the basics of what we teach with most of our parenting courses, right? Just going back and meeting the needs of the child that's there so that some of the behaviors just kind of disappear in there.

So if we go back to starting off by just acknowledging those feelings, we have a tendency as a culture to say, you know what, when the, You know, when we have a child that comes up and says, I hate the baby to say, you don't hate the baby. You'd love the baby, right? But as soon as we deny those feelings, they're now going to spend the next hour proving to you that those feelings are there and they're true. So we can accept all feelings. Feelings don't have a morality. They're not right or wrong. So you can hate the baby, but we put boundaries on what you get to do when you have those feelings. So we go back to the old how to talk, you know, four step program. We're going to identify those feelings. We're going to name them no matter the age of the child, whether we're talking about teenagers or whether we're talking about, you know, little ones that are two and three and four. We're going to connect with them and just acknowledge them, meet them where they're at with their feelings. So we're going to name it. You can even do it with wishes. So, you know, you wish. The baby wasn't taking up so much of mommy's time. That's hard for you. So we can name it that way. We can even do it by helping them do a symbolic or, or kind of a creative, uh, act in there. You know, our guys put up signs on their doors. When they have feelings that are hard to deal with, they want to put up those signs and let people know. So, you know, you can have a child put up a sign on their door saying, private property, no babies allowed. Just so that you're meeting them. Where they're at in there, but then we move on and and we talk about what the problem is, you know, you can have those feelings and you can feel that way. But if there are hurtful actions involved, you know, if we have a young child, especially coming up and pinching the baby or doing something like that, Those hurtful actions need to be stopped. And that's a theme you're going to hear all the way through this today is that when there are hurtful actions, we accept the feelings, but we, you know, we step in and we stop those actions from happening. So what you really want to do is go back again, just to meeting those needs, you know, are the needs for connection, are the needs for spending time with mom or dad away from the baby, right? We always parent with warmth and structure. Warmth being, um, making sure kids feel safe and secure. So this baby is not taking the place of you. It's not gonna, you know, move you out of your position in the family. Making sure that they're secure in that. Um, with lots of love and actions and physical touch in there and lots of structure and structure is basically just guidance and helping them figure out where they're supposed to go from here and how they're supposed to manage that. It's also kind of looking through their eyes so that we're seeing again back to those feelings, how their feelings because our feelings are going to dictate our behaviors, right? So. All of that, just feeling safe and secure, but describing the problem that's going on here and then tell them what they need to do, right? We need to state the expectation that we have for their behavior at this point. Now we're, as again, as a culture, we're really great at telling people what they're doing wrong. I don't know how many times I've been told, don't do this, don't do that, and I'm 65, right? And I still get that. I don't need you to tell me not to do this, I need you to tell me what to do instead. So, put in the front of their brain what it is you want them to do, and that cuts down a lot of thinking for them, especially if they're in a heightened emotional state over this baby, right? So we're just going to make it really easy for them and tell them what it is they need to do. And if they do it, we're going to describe what they did and praise them for that. Thank you so much for going and getting the diapers for me. The baby was crying and that sound was bothering you. Now we can give the baby a dry bottom and maybe she won't cry so much. So, it's that kind of stuff that goes in there and, and any way you can involve the, the first child with the care of the second child, not being onerous and not making them the parent, but just so that they feel like they, you know, they're the, the big sibling in the room that can help out and we're valuing what they're bringing to the table, often things that the baby can't do. Right? The baby can't get up and go and run and get diapers. The baby can't go and bring you the phone. The baby can't do all those things, but you can. You know, you're the big, big brother or sister in there. And then, not only do we value their actions, but their thoughts about the whole thing. Right, and so when we connect and we acknowledge those feelings, we're valuing those thoughts in there. And if you can, give them their wishes in fantasy. Wouldn't it be nice if that baby would just go to sleep and you and I could have some time together? Wouldn't that be awesome? However, doesn't look like he's ready yet, so we gotta work on this together to get through. Right, and then of course you mentioned about being a grandparent. Bring in the grandparents, bring in the aunts and uncles, let them spoil the little baby, and you go ahead and take time with that other child. That's part of being a grandfather. So, Jane is, as someone who was literally already this morning having a discussion with their friend about, you know, my kiddos are five and six now.

And, For me, right now, the most frustrating part is that they're able to act like humans so much of the time that then when they don't, it's just like, what the fuck's the matter with you? You know, and so like, the girl child yesterday came screaming and crying up to me and she goes, brother hurt my feelings. And so I'm, I'm expecting like a real emotional moment and it turns out that what he had done was not let her pick what they were watching on TV. And so, you know, this, I'm wondering what tips you have for remembering it just because they sometimes have the words for more emotional development or occasionally, you know, they're sort of on the cusp of that development, how we can remember that they're not.

Actually there, and I have the feeling that teenagers are probably the same problem, that it's, they act like humans, but they're not really humans yet. Because that's, yeah, that seems to be a spot where they can really act less mature even than, uh, yeah, when they're out in the world with their friends or at school.

I think that's a great way to put it. Less mature. That's a very kind, politically correct way to talk about it. I was speaking with a friend who does, uh, who works in the same area that I do. And we were talking about. Basically this, that at times where kids are becoming more independent, those are times of separation and development, right? So they're separating and they're becoming their own person. And she had a great way to put it. She says, Yeah, sometimes they just become assholes to be able to do that. And, and I think there's a truth in that. Um, I guess the big part in there is... Treat them uniquely and on their own. But when it comes to, you know, kids fighting with each other or being unkind with each other, we kind of divide it into about four different sections. The first one is, you know, what you're talking about, that normal bickering between kids, back and forth, back and forth. Um, It's not something you really have to worry about it. Nobody's going to get hurt in there. So, you know, the thought is think about your next vacation. Think about your next trip away, and we're just going to let the kids work it out themselves. They get to experience conflict resolution. You know, they're going to figure out how to do some of these skills in here. Your, your situation, Kate, was almost, I think, at a level two there. Where it's starting to heat up because we've got high emotions coming into here and someone's feelings are heard in there, you know, to them, we see it as a little thing, right? I mean, it's a TV show and most of them are streamed anyway. You can watch it again later if you want to, but, uh. To them, the little things are big things. Whatever happening is right now is all encompassing. So to be able to see through their eyes that this is the way it is and to realize that for them, this is absolutely devastating. The world is falling apart. It's going to end, you know, I'm no longer important in this world, et cetera, et cetera. So when it starts to heat up. I think we go back to that, those basics that we just talked about, you acknowledge those feelings in there, acknowledge the upset, acknowledge the anger, the frustration that's in there, reflect on each kid's point of view, right? If they're old enough, and you guys are just kind of starting to get there, if they're old enough to try and work this out on their own, although you still have an imbalance of power, right? Because one is a little more articulate than the other. Um, so when you have that, you know, we, we sort of get each child's point of view. We describe the problem ourselves so that they can see what the problem is. And then, you know, we say, you know what, I trust that you guys can figure this out. Let me know what's going on. We'll just take the remote control for the moment until you have that figured out. And as soon as you two have a plan, come on back and see me and you get that remote control back. So it's, it's giving them again, a chance. To not make you the referee that they can actually start to work it out themselves. But if it goes past that, then we're into what we call level 3 and 4 when it comes to fighting. And A level three, you know, there's a possibility of some dangers, a possibility somebody's going to get hit or hurt by being pushed down or whatever. So when it starts to get physical like that or verbally, you know, emotionally harsh, then, then that can be dangerous too, right? So that's when we step in and say, Hey, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? Sounds like you guys are upset. Now she came to you. So it's a little bit different, but if you were to walk in on that argument and you're worried that somebody's about to pound someone else, then we step in and we check in with them and say, you know, hey, how's it going here? You guys doing alright? And both of them have to say that things are okay. for you to step back a bit. If not, then that's when we start to intervene in there. So if they're not both in agreement with what's going on, something has to change. And if it goes further than that, if it's actually dangerous and somebody is going to get hurt in there, or You're thinking that this is too rough or the language is too inappropriate and somebody's going to be, you know, morally and emotionally hurt in there as well. In our house, it was the S word and the S word was stupid. You weren't allowed to use the S word in our house. There's better ways to, to manage yourselves in there. So, in those cases, we step in if it's too rough or if it's not safe and We basically describe the problem that's going on again, because we want them to know what the issue is, and then we separate them. You know, you're over here, you're over there. When we can figure this out, and we do a little bit of problem solving, then we're gonna, you know, you guys can be together again. But right now, that's not okay. So, In the beginning, we, we don't want to step in too quick because that power for the kids, they need a chance to figure out what their own power is. If we want to raise strong kids, um, we have to give them a chance to use their power. And, and up here in Canada, I think one of the biggest mistakes we ever did was to have zero tolerance in the schools, right? Hands off, no touching each other. How are kids supposed to know where the boundaries are? How are they supposed to know where the limits are? No, you're not allowed to hurt someone else. But it's by pushing your friend and having them fall down and be upset with you that you find out that that was too much. So, I think, um, before we jump in too quickly, give the kids a chance to use their power. Let them be that person who is making decisions. Let them be that person who is Taking control so that they figure out what the limits are. If we don't give them a chance to do that and to figure things out, I mean, we're still going to hover on the edge, especially with young kids, right? Because sometimes that can go too much, but they can't learn risk management. They can't learn power and control unless they get a chance to use it. And, and I mean, I think we do it from a kind place in our heart. Everybody would like to have a day that goes a little more smoothly, although in the farming community, I'm not sure that ever happens, but we need to, you know, we do it because we think we are helping out.

But I think sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot when we don't let kids try and figure some of this out themselves. I think that's a really interesting point, Jane, because as an only child, too, and because my kids are so close in age and size, I feel it's easier for me to let them Physically mix it up a little because they're pretty evenly matched, you know, so I'm not too worried that one of them is going to pound to the other, but especially as an only child who was raised at sort of the beginning of that, you know, nobody should ever be upset about anything ever generation that it's really hard to try and explain to my kid, the concept that, Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that you are traumatized by it. You know, you might not like that he won't let you watch what you want to watch. And maybe you're upset about it, but I don't know that that quite reaches the My feelings are hurt. I need you to, to, you know, reassure my place in the world. You know, where do we How do we teach them what's an actual problem if everything's wrong?

Yeah, and that's a prob you know, and that's it. And like you said, they're young and they're still figuring all of that out. So, they live in the moment. I mean, I think we could take a few lessons from them sometimes. They live in the moment and what is happening right now is everything. So, to to be able to look through their eyes and see how that feels. Again, going back to those feelings, feelings are just so important and to see that they're under a lot of stress when they feel that way and meet them where they're at. And then move them forward to what you were saying is, you know, take a look at that. One of the programs we teach is Kids Have Stress Too, and that's going to be coming up in the fall. But they take a look at the open hand. So you stretch your five fingers out, and you ask the child, How big a problem is this? Right? And I always start with the little finger because it's little, right? So the little finger is always just a little bit of a problem. The, the next finger is, well, it's, it's kind of bugging me right now. The third finger in the middle, you know, the one that we use to let people know we're upset, says that we need to deal with that right now. The pointer finger... is the one that says, you know what? It's getting beyond my control. I can't handle it. And that great big thumb, this is a big problem we need to deal with it right now. So asking them to evaluate and see how much of a problem it is. And then afterwards coming back to them and saying, so how are you feeling about this now? Now that we've resolved it a bit, is it still that big a problem? And often that That big thumb problem now is a fourth finger problem. It's just a little bit of a problem. So it helps them understand, like you were saying that, okay, it felt like a big problem right then, but maybe it's, it doesn't, it's not going to stay that way. If I move towards some kind of resolution or if I work towards it, or even if I just share it with somebody else. So that I'm not dealing with it alone, then it becomes a lot lesser of a problem. So it's helping them, it's giving them a concrete way to evaluate just how much of a problem it is and, you know, and come back at it again another day too, and say, remember when you were feeling so tough about that? Where, where are you at now? How does, how does it feel now? Just so that they can know that they're not stuck in the moment, that what you feel right now is gonna change. And so that may be helpful in their situation, too. It takes a little bit of getting used to. It, yeah, it feels like so much, you know, for those of us who are becoming middle aged. Um, you know, with the, with the baby boomer parents who were raised with, you know, nothing is a problem, kind of man up and, Drink and, you know, don't talk about it and then our generation was raised with the beginning of, you know, everything is a problem. Talk about everything. Everything is a huge deal and trying to find a healthy balance between I'm not negating the way you feel about this, but also it's not that big a deal, you know, so that we can. Save the energy for when it is a big deal and we can really, you know, yeah. And we call, I mean, the whole, the whole area of parenting, we call that the parenting pendulum, right? It swings to one end. And you know, we, like you said, my generation grew up, kids should be, you know, not seen and not heard. Basically not be a problem. And the same thing with anger. We are not supposed to get angry. We are not supposed to get upset in our culture. That's just not acceptable. And then the pendulum swings all the way to the other end, where again, we're checking in about absolutely everything. We're giving awards for absolutely everything. And, you know, we have to validate everything. Somewhere in the middle of that is where we need to end up. But, you know, we have a tendency to swing one way and then swing way back the other way. So, you know, I think Barbara Coloroso, um, Said it best way, way back when I was raising my kids, you know, you've got the jellyfish families that just can't make a decision because everybody needs their input and everybody needs to be okay with it. And, and then you have your brick wall parenting in there that says my way or the highway kid, and that's just it. And somewhere in there, we need to help these kids grow up with a backbone, you know, because we're really talking about resilience in here, right? I really like the example you gave with the hand because I think, and reflecting back on it too, because I need, I thought of myself, you know, like on the day where a bunch of things have gone wrong, dropping dinner on the floor, all of a sudden seems like the thumb, right? Where if it was first thing in the morning and nothing had gone wrong yet, you know, like then. It's like, oh, no deal. I can clean that up and I can laugh about it. But on the day, you know, and same with our kids, right? Like at the end of the day maybe they've come home from school and they've held it together all day long and then that incident with their sibling is the thing that pushes them over the edge. And in that moment, that's the worst thing that's ever happened to them. But it's also because the whole day's worth of events have compiled into this one blowout and yeah, you look back on it later and you're like, oh, yeah. It wasn't that big of a deal, you know, and another time I could have handled it, but that day I couldn't, but, but looking back on that situation and reflecting on it later is, is a good, good way to think about revisiting it. And sometimes I know as a parent, I don't want to talk about it again. And we're like, well, we got over that. Let's not bring it up. Yeah, yeah. Let's sweep that under the rug and pretend it never happened. But let speaking dogs lie. I think you bring up another point, though. I mean, you're, you're basically telling us it really wasn't what happened. What you were really dealing with was stress, right? And I mean, for, for our families, our agricultural families, There is so many things that are dealing with this. There is not another occupation with as much stress. There is so many things we don't get to control. There is so many things in there. We need to be aware and help make our kids aware that they're feeling stressed. And what do you do about that? Right. There are different ways to handle that so that you can lessen some of that stress because again, it's not about the TV. It's not about, you know, dropping the dinner on the floor, although that would devastate our family tremendously. We, you know, it's not about that. It's about the stress that you're carrying with you when you're trying to deal with the stuff that's going on during the day. So, you know, Stuart Shanker, who is one of our Canadian gurus in the whole area of self regulation and dealing with stress, He is all about the stress. Do what you can to manage the stress and everything else will start to fall into place. And again, part of managing that stress is going back to those basics. Parent with, you know, with warmth and structure so that kids feel safe and secure and loved and that the world is okay that they're not doing this alone. And structure where we go in and we support things and we help them deal with the stress and manage the stress and lower events. stress so that they can start making decisions themselves. That leads really well into my next question, because I was thinking about that, you know, that those feelings of busyness and stress and how we're always as parents and farmers feeling like we're pulled in different directions and yet we're trying. To also meet the needs of multiple kids, if we're talking about siblings, that means we've got more, more than one child in our home, or even one is a lot of work. I'm not saying that that's not, but trying to balance the concept of having one on one time, having family time, meeting the needs of different kids. How do we try and find some sense of balance in there? Because sometimes even just the expectation that those are things that we need to do ends up, you know, making it feel like too much. It is. And with COVID, I mean, everything has been exacerbated around those areas, right? I mean, it changed our whole world in there, and we're coming through it. You know, I'm not sure we'll ever be done with it, but basically you're talking about mental health. Right? You're talking about how do we balance all of this stuff. And I think both of you guys have hit that idea of, um, that whole bit about, I just lost my train of thought. This is amazing guys. Um, I guess we're talking about mental health in there and that balance. Oh, I know what it was. We have, we have this idea that. We're supposed to be equal with our kids, that there's supposed to be equality in here. And I think that's a farce. You know, from early on, especially again, our agricultural families, those involved in farming. Farming teaches you that life is not fair. It just doesn't happen that way. So when it comes to mental health. You have to take care of yourself first, right? If you're going to manage all of this stuff, if you're going to manage the kids, if you're going to manage the farm, if you're going to manage your own life and everything that's going on, you can't give from an empty bucket, right? So, we need to find ways to, to do some self care, to fill our own bucket. And I, I hate that word self care because I don't even know what that means mostly. I just know that I'm not doing okay. But part of it for, for me here, I think is learning to delegate. And for those of us that are strong, we don't want to delegate. It's kind of like the anger issue. If you delegate, you're seen as weak. If you show these things, then you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. That's a bunch of horse hockey too here, right? So. For me, I needed to learn to delegate. I needed to let go of some of those things that I feel like I have to control. We call them shoulds in our life. You know, I should be able to do this. I should manage that as well. It's always been done this way, so I should be able to do it that way as well. Get rid of the shoulds. Figure out what it is you need to make things work. for you in there. So delegate some of those things that you don't have to have control over. Give them off to other people, ask for help. And that's, I mean, I say that very easily sitting here at my dining room table, much, much harder to do when you're out in the world in front of other people, ask for help, get divide things up in there with the kids. It's hard now because we used to have people who were at home around us. You know, when I first moved out here and our kids were little, our nearest neighbours were miles and miles away. And, you know, even the first one that wasn't, um, Wasn't close by they they weren't even there. You know, they were off to work or they were off doing other things. So In the in the days before that I think we had people around us or we had multi generational houses Where there were people there that could help out and so we had cooperative daycare in there If that's something that you can set up, I mean, you know It doesn't have to be paid daycare in somebody's home or in centers, but to say, you know what, we've got this coming up, um, you talked, so we were chatting a little bit before all of this started, and Arlene was saying that, you know, they're into prom season at their house because your kids are a little bit older, and that you had to wash the tractor, and I'm searching in my brain, What the hell does washing the tractor have to do with prom time, right? Well, they're driving the tractor to prom, which I think is so amazing, but you can't clean the tractor till after the spraying's done, right? So if you can have some kind of cooperative, uh, going on in your area where, when things become too much that the kids can go there for a while, and then you will take their kids for a little while and just do some care or just head them off to activities. Right, maybe somebody picks up two or three sets of kids and heads off into town and goes and does, you know, heads to the swimming pool or goes and does something in there, the park even, that are keeping the kids occupied and give the other people a break. So that's not always on your plate. So Get cooperative here. I mean, farming co ops have been around for a long time. Let's have parenting co ops in here, too. Used to be something we did. We've gotten away from it. And I think, too, remembering, you talk about one on one time with the kids, which is awesome. If you can do one on one time with each kid, that's great. But to remember that... Sometimes, just taking a bunch of very small moments in the day, 30 seconds, a minute, a minute and a half, when that child comes to you, stopping what you're doing, getting down to their level, listening to what they're saying, uh, being a part of what they are sharing with you, will meet those needs that are underneath there. They get that connection. They get that sense of safety and security. Then they're quite happy to head off and go do something else for a while. If you keep pushing them off and fending them off and don't take the time. just for a very short time. And I'm not talking, you know, like half a day, I'm talking, you know, two or three minutes to do that. Then they're good and gone again. You're not going to get a half a day. You're going to get 10, 15 minutes out of it. But a lot of those little tiny moments add up to just as much as doing a big one on one time. And those are the times when they know when they need you, you're there. Not always possible, right? I mean, if we're out on the tractors, if we're out in the fields, or if we're in some place that isn't safe for the kids to be, always looking at health and safety, then that's not possible, you know? But we, we do our best to treat kids uniquely in there. Just because one kid wants the remote for the TV doesn't mean that's even an issue. For the other kid, right? We talk about boots and pancakes in our house. If we're all sitting down at the breakfast table having pancakes and the eight year old says, yep, I want four pancakes. We give them four pancakes. The two year old then pipes up. I want four pancakes. Well, we know they're only gonna to eat one, so they don't get four pancakes on their on their plate. They get one pancake and then when they say, but he got four, we come back to them with, this isn't about them. This is about you. What is it you need right now? And helping them look at their own needs, not in comparison to everybody else. Because kids do have differences in there. And if you finish that one pancake and you want more, there's a whole plate. Grab another one. Go for it. If you want another one after you finish that one, go for another one. There are lots of pancakes. But we treat kids uniquely, not equally. So if Kate needs a new pair of boots, cause she's grown and hers are done, it doesn't mean I'm going to buy everybody else in the house a pair of rubber boots. Kate needs rubber boots, she gets rubber boots. Somebody else needs a backpack. Somebody else needs an extra story at bedtime and a little extra cuddle. So we try and meet the individual needs of each child in there. If do not, do not let them draw you back into, but they, you know, but she, but he, no, we're not talking about them. We're talking about you and what you need right now. And this is again, so easy to say, sitting here by myself, watching the dog lick himself over there in the living room, right? Much harder to do when you're in the middle. with very emotional kids in there, but we're also going to give our time according to the children's needs, right? Your prom queen may need some little extra reassurance right now because that's a big thing arriving in a tractor, showing up in a dress, doing something that's different and out of your comfort zone, right? She may need that little extra reassurance. Where the guys are just quite fine to head off on the four wheelers and go do something out in the fields, right? We give our time according to the child's need. And if we don't have the time right now, because you've taken all those little times for when they've come to you over the years and said, yeah, I hear you. I see a awesome rock. Yeah. Love the stripe in the middle of the rock. That's really cool. And away they go. They can, they know you're there for them. They know you've got their back. You've built those foundational blocks underneath. So you say to them, you know what, I have to finish this right now. I don't have a choice, this has to get done. But as soon as I'm done, I'm going to come and find you and listen to what you have to say. Because that's also important. I just can't do it right now. So not only are you taking care of yourself, you're modeling for them how to do that. So when they get under too much stress and they're being asked for too much, they know the words and they know how to step up and say, You know what? I hear ya. That's what you have to say is important. Just can't do it right now. Give me ten minutes or I'll see you right after supper. Right? And we're teaching them how to do those things. Cause that's how they learn, right? Blah, blah, blah. That's my soapbox.

Jane, I, I totally feel that. And I keep, I'm amazed at how much it's helping me to tell myself that every time that my kids see me get frustrated or angry And they see me deal with it in an appropriate and healthy way and apologize to anyone I may have hurt in the meantime. That that is actually good for them to see because I think so many of us were raised with, you know, We do not have feelings. Feelings are not something we do. You know, that We're showing them how to be humans. And I also feel like I'm probably saying it in my sleep at this point, that the girl child will say, well, the boy child did X, Y, and Z, and I have to say, who is in charge of the boy child? The boy child is in charge of him. Mommy and Daddy are in charge of him. You are not in charge of him. You know, and it's just this constant thing. So... Next question here in our small town.

Just before you go to your next one, Kate. Let's just add one more step in there as well. And just acknowledge where she's at. Oh, you feel like you need to be in charge of that. You feel like you need to have some control over that. And just state those, you know, how she's feeling and meet her there. And then move her on to that. Because I think that's a huge part of it in there. You know, we know. We're doing that in our head all the time, but again, like you said, we're modeling for them. So when we stop and we just take that second to describe what's going on here and what might be the problem, we're also teaching them to be able to stop, breathe, and see what the problem is that you're actually dealing with. So good point in there. Well, and I think that's a really good reminder because as someone who, um, It can be overly helpful, myself. Um, it's hard to remember that we have to let people make their own mistakes, or what might look like mistakes to us, and that that is not our responsibility to fix it for them, unless they're asking for help. Just because she sees what she thinks is a better way for him to be doing something does not mean that he needs to do it that way. Exactly. But as, as strong... Which is a hard lesson to remember even... As strong women though, I mean, that comes from a good place in our hearts, right? And from, in her, you know, hopefully somewhere deeper... Down in her heart, too. She's there saying, but I can see a better way. I can help him with this. I can make his life easier and recognize that that often, you know, for strong people, strong willed people, um, That often is something that we have to remind them that just because we can do it better, we need to give those other people a chance for their light to shine and to try it that their way, because sometimes that's how they learn, right? But to remember that it does come from a good place in their heart and not just from, screw this, I know how to do it better, do it my way, right?

Jane, I just realized that problem. Sorry Arlene, that probably says something about why she's so obsessed with tucking him into bed and giving him all his stuffed animals and fluffing his pillow and everything because it's the one time that she can just do stuff without him pushing back.

I know we spend a lot of time in our house saying, well, more so when they were little and I think that we, it says finally over many, many repetitions gotten through is asking someone if they want help first. Because if you step in and help them without their permission, that's not helpful. And you have to, we have to ask first, do you want help? And if they say no, then you have to believe them. You can ask again if they really seem to be struggling. But, but I've always, I've really worked hard on trying to teach the kids, especially with their siblings. It's only helpful if they want your help and it's not helpful. if you step in and do it for them without their permission. That's, that's called being an ally. We were doing some staff training, um, about. Being an ally and being inclusive and, um, diversity and, and that was the point of the whole training was that you may be doing it from a good place in your heart, but unless the other person really wants you to do this, it is not helpful. So step in and do not take again. We're back to that whole power thing, right? And I mean, I'm sure your young gal looks at you, Kate, and says, you know, this is, this is how mom does it. So I'm going to step in and do this because it works and it makes. me feel good. And you know, there she is. It's just not always appreciated at the age she's at. Right. And again, we can, you know, we know the difference between when it's a health and safety issue and we have to step in and it's my way or the highway kid, or whether it's one of those times where we just say. Okay, preventable accident speech on hold. We're gonna let you do it your way and see what happens. But I think you guys are both really right in that in our culture, we're not supposed to be angry, we're not supposed to be upset. So you guys have to be... Those, uh, parental detectives in there and say, what are they supposed to do when they feel like that? What is okay and acceptable in your house? You know, how do you show anger? How do you show frustration? How do you show those big feelings? Because our culture says we're not supposed to have them. So that's, that's a tough one. And I think that's unique for every family situation is how to, you know, what you're allowed to do when you feel that way. But look at us here having this discussion. So,

I, uh, I very, very much struggle with possibly my biggest personality. flaw that I am aware of. I'm sure there are many that I have just not really gotten a good handle on, is wanting to help people whether they want my help or not. And it's a, it's a family trait that I come by honestly, but I would really like it to substantially decrease with the next generation. You know, we're not going for perfection, we're going for improvement. Right, and I love the, I love the fact you said decrease. So Jane, it's... Because we wouldn't want that to be, to be lost in there either, right? Because here you guys are doing this podcast for exactly that reason. Because you're out in the world making it a better place, helping people, right? So we don't want to lose it all together. Yeah, but we're not forcing anybody to listen. So I figure if they came here and listened to it, they wanted our help. And if they didn't want our help, they can go listen to something else. Which is not to say you should all leave and go listen to something else, but it's your choice. So Jane, our, our small town I think is maybe a little unusual with how many kids are close together in age. But, you know, my kids are 16 months apart and so they, especially now that they're getting a little older, they're. Functioning a lot more like twins than like siblings who are further apart might, um, because developmentally they're quite close in age. But we're starting to get to that point where they have different groups of friends, you know, when they were in daycare and they were in the same classroom together all day. They all knew all the same kids, but now there's, there's different groups and there's, you know, the girl child wants to have her little friends over, but not the boy child's friends. End. You know, or vice versa. And I'm wondering how to help them navigate that. I mean, as I said, I'm an only child, so I don't have any experience with any of this. And this is, you know, I don't want to force them to all play together all the time. But also... All their little friends have siblings that are the same age too, so it's easy to just end up with a, you know, we had everybody every Saturday night. There's just a pack of kids that are all within like 3 years of each other and they just, it's just a swarm.

So I think, I think in pictures and as you've been describing this, that's exactly what I saw was just a pack of little wolf pups all together, right? All just crawling all over each other. It basically is. It's scary. Um. That's a really great question because I think again, we go back to treating kids uniquely so that they have a sense of self and we really, really need to resist that urge to compare kids, right? We need to let them be their own person and value what they're bringing to the table. Um, basically. We want them to have autonomy, right? Autonomy is being able to govern yourself. It's self governance. Making your own choices from your morals and your ethics inside you. Um, dealing with the consequences of those. You know, really being your own person in the world, and so that is a lot harder when they're very close in age. Because, like you said, they're able to do a lot of what the other child is to do. They're together all the time. Um, when they're a little bit further apart, The skills and abilities are a little bit further apart. And so one of the things you really have to do is work on making sure again that we're treating kids uniquely, that we're not pulling them in just because this person is heading off with that person doesn't mean you get to because they're their own person, right? And that really reflects back on the conversation we just had about help is that They get to make their own decisions for their own life as long as they're age appropriate, right? So I think really what we're talking in there is about resilience and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's what our very first broadcast together was about, right? Was about resiliency. So you can go back in the, in the data and find it there, but resilience. Resiliency, you know, we can show empathy when feelings get hurt. When they're off with a different group, and you're not a part of that. To step in and help the child. The one that's heading off is probably fine. They're off doing their own thing. They're off managing their own life. They're with their own people. But the one who gets left behind, it's a good time for a little bit of bonding in there. So we show some empathy, but we also show a positive attitude about that, right? And I think that comes back to maybe not just what we do in the moment, but how we live our lives in there. And you guys are such thinkers. The questions you come up with and your thoughts as we're talking really go back to showing that you take the information and you really think about it. So I think part of it is, is going back and living a life with intention, living a life. Where we teach and practice gratitude in there. And so when we do come on times where our feelings are hurt, or we're upset, we acknowledge the feelings, but then we also look back and say, Hang on here, you know, what, what is good about this right now? Right? It gives you and I time together and to find the little highlights in there in this situation. And if you live a life where you're constantly looking at gratitude in there, then when you have a tough time, you can stop, you can take a big breath and say, hang on, I don't like how I'm feeling right now. What do I need to do to change that so we can go back and change it by thinking of things we are thankful for right now, just because this isn't going our way, what are things, you know, that are good about right now and trying to get into that positive attitude in there, but it needs to come with a heavy dose of what we call realistic optimism. Right? Because the reality is, my sibling is my sibling and they have the right to be off and doing other things, not with me all the time. The reality is also that that does hurt my feelings, right? But where do I go from there? So we can be our own positive coach in those situations. When we do the Bounce Back and Thrive program, which we just finished up here in Ontario. You know, we talk about, um, how we talk to ourselves, then that makes a difference, because the talk that's going on in our heads dictates our emotions, how we feel, and how we feel dictates our actions in there. So if we can change that talk that's going on in our head, and be a more positive coach and say, hang on, yes, you're feeling sad, you're having a nice little pity party here, but if you don't like how that's feeling, Then let's look at this differently. I'm happy that they're off and away. Now I get some time to be here and doing my own things without them bugging me, you know, all of those things and be that positive coach. I can do this. They're going to be back later in the afternoon. Maybe they'll come back in a really good mood, you know, and then maybe they'll even feel a little bit guilty and they'll want to do what I want to do because they've been away, right? There's all sorts of positive ways, but switching that talk around in your head. So that you can be your own positive coach in there. The other thing we did here at the house, because we have three kids and man from the same genetic pool, I don't know how they could be so different, but they are. And our youngest one did not have that sunny first attitude and that positive mood in the world. She was kind of a negative Nelly. Um, she, is now a massage therapist and is out helping the world in tremendous ways. But we went through a time where everything was like, Oh man, life just sucks. So. We actually made a list of what makes you feel good. So when you're feeling that way, we would acknowledge that. Oh, this is a tough day. One of those days where you're not feeling good about things. Go check the list. If you want to change that, you can do that. Go pull something off the list that makes you feel good. And for her, it was about the animals. Go grabbing the cat and petting the cat. She loves to be outside. Right? She, she kayaks. She does all sorts of things. She cross country skis. So for her, she would choose something off of her list that we had made and stuck to the wall, puts the control back in her hands. So she's not a victim here. She's a powerful, you know, young lady who gets to go and choose with awareness what she wants to do. And so she would choose something off the list and do that for a while. Um, if that wasn't enough, then we would choose something else. There were things like playing with Play Doh, asking to go and use the pool, um, doing painting. She loves to be creative with things. So there were things like that that got her out of where she was and into a better headspace. So, again, it's about you being you and not just, and I'm looking at you, I know you guys can't see us, but I'm seeing Kate pick up the fly swatter. Mosquitoes this year are horrendous and I'm, I'm trying to ignore the one, the one, the three that are buzzing around the back of my head here, but anyway, trying to be positive about this. Um, the other thing we did is we had a channel changer, so just like a remote control here. Um, we made a channel changer out of a Smarties box and we just put stickers on it and you could take that and you could point it at your head and click any one of the buttons if you didn't like the channel you were on. So if you were on the pity channel, you could point that at your head and go click and you could decide that you wanted to be on the feeling happy channel. And we practiced it as a game. We had home daycare here for a while, when our kids were little, so that I could, I could be at home with them. And we would use it as a game. And we would click onto the silly channel, and everybody would stick out their tongue, and dance around the, you know, the living room. We would click it on the sad channel, and everybody would burst into tears. And just so that you... Can help kids understand if you don't like the feeling that you have, you're not stuck there. You can change that. We even had the homework channel. The kids would sit at the table doing their homework and. Um, I would holler from the kitchen, doesn't sound like you're getting your homework done, get on the homework channel, and they would take an imaginary remote, point it at their head and go click, and we would get ten more minutes of homework. Not a half an hour, maybe five or ten minutes. But it's just a way of helping them. Realize that you don't have to be stuck where you're at. You are in control, you are your own person, and you get to choose. Sometimes it was a little overwhelming and it just, they couldn't get there. And then we just show lots and lots of empathy, right? But again, not stepping in too quickly to fix it, and putting the power back in their hands, if they're old enough to manage this. And you'd be surprised that three is old enough to do this kind of stuff. But we're not trying to make it equal for each of you, we're not trying to fix it, we're trying to get you to take charge of your life. If you don't like it, change it. But we do empathize, we do support in choosing and helping you learning to choose a different way to be. So there you go, there's my other soapbox for today.

Picturing one of our old remote controls becoming repurposed here. Um, so another question that I had, Jane, was about... Building the kinds of relationships that we want our kids to have with each other now so that when they're adults that hopefully fingers crossed, they actually are friends and want to spend time together. I mean, of course, sorry, there are no guarantees. You know, they like, you know, they come into the world and they are who they are and maybe they're not going to get along forever. But you know, as As parents, I think we all would hope that our kids will enjoy spending time together as they grow up. So do you have any thoughts on, on things we can do now when they're young or when they're teenagers to develop those relationships?

Yeah, well, you guys pick the easy questions, don't you? Holy cow. Um, I think for this one, yeah, no problem there. Um. I think you hit on a couple of really key points. Number one, we don't get to make that choice for them. Uh, we can do the best that we can now, but that is, you know, some personalities mesh better than others, and some, you know, will find ways to get along, but may never be just best friends in there. So again, I think growing up, trying to do things so that That we've already talked about. Resisting that urge to compare, right? Don't set them up to compete with each other. So, trying not to say, Come on, you know, it's time to get up. Your brother's already up and down at the table. Trying to get to the point where, Where, um, Where we're talking about them and what they're doing. So describing what we see, what we feel, um, what needs to be done without involving the other child so that we're not setting them up for competition at an early age, which comes back to bite them in their adult years. Right? So I think that's the first thing to remember. The next, I think, is, is basically looking at the stage your kid is at. So when we're talking about teens, and you guys are, are all up there, um, Remembering that for them, again, just like, you know, just like our three and four year olds, they're at an age of independence, and it's a time of separation. So seeing them... Separating in the teen years and not wanting to be with each other isn't necessarily a bad sign. Sometimes it's just development in there. Their peers outside of the family become the relationship of choice. Because they're supposed to be becoming independent and being their own person. So, allow them to save face in there, that's the ultimate. Don't corner them and tackle them so that they lose face in front of, um, their peers or their siblings. It's a big part of it, and then allowing them that separation, you know, allowing them to be their own person. They will come back once they've gone through that time, but you have to let it happen. Meanwhile... The, the stuff that builds relationships is important, so have fun together. And this is where I think I drive parents crazy, because they'll come to me and say, you know, this is going wrong, and this isn't working well, and, and this isn't happening. How do we, how do we deal with this? And I say, what do you do for fun? And they look at me like I have horns growing out of my head. Fun? I don't want to have fun with these guys. They're miserable to be with. Go out and figure out ways to have fun together. And back to that comment earlier, you know, sometimes their behaviour reflects... This need for separation and this need for saving face, and they become people who aren't pleasant to be around as they put these things into place so that the separation happens. Let it happen. Don't take it personally. We call it don't tipping your canoe. T. I. P. stands for take it personally. When we tip a canoe, everybody gets wet. So just take a breath. Step back and say, oh yeah, they're at a time of independence. They need a little bit of space here. Give them some space. But do what you can to have fun together because it's in those fun times when we're out. I mean, we're water people here. We've got a pool, uh, out front because we never get, we never got away in the summertime on the farm, right? And now that we're older, we still head for water everywhere. Having fun together is when we build communication. Having fun together is when we learn to be helpful with each other, to do our problem solving together, to build trust in there. All of that happens when we're enjoying each other and having fun together. So really do your best to have those times. And again, we're not talking about going away for the whole day. If you can do something for an hour, whether you're into board games, whether you're watching TV together, Whether you like to cook or barbecue, whether, you know, like us, we're going to head out and fish in the kayaks, um, that kind of stuff, do something that's fun together. We still read together with our kids at bedtime, long, long, long after they could read for themselves. I would read a page, they would read a page. It's just a time together to keep that communication going. And again, going back to modeling that gratitude and appreciation in our life. So that when they do become adults, and I can remember, I guess, probably around the age of 23 or 24, and now we know, of course, that that's when that brain really becomes fully developed, is way up at those ages. And thinking, oh, that's what my mom was talking about. That's what she meant by that. And having that lightbulb come on, but not until I was that old. So, being able to Having been brought up to show gratitude and appreciation, it didn't always kick in when it was needed, but it kicked in in those mid twenties. And so then I became better friends with my siblings at that point because I had that basis to go back to even if I couldn't use it during the teen years. And I guess the last thing I can think of in there is don't always try and be the hero. Right? Don't always try and be the one that gets it done. Like Kate was saying, you know, we're rescuers. We're in these professions. We're doing what we're doing today because we want to be helpful and make the world a better place. But if you can step back from being the hero and turn your, you know, your kids to their siblings and say, I can't help you right now, but maybe so and so could help out and get them working together so that their sibling then becomes... a help and a problem solver that will come back to roost again in their adult years as well in there. So, teach them negotiation and delegation at the age they're at no matter what age they're at because those are tools that you also get to use with your siblings. Um, we had, we had a few teens come and live with us at different times over the years that weren't able to be at home for a variety of reasons. Um, we always had a chore chart on the fridge. Today was Monday, it was your responsibility to be washing dishes, your responsibility to be drying dishes, your responsibility to sweep up after supper. Well, one of our teens hated doing dishes, but that's non negotiable in our house. If you eat, you clean up. So she was a master negotiator, and she's an adult, an amazing mom and adult today. But she negotiated with all the others on her nights to wash, she would sweep up, she would clean the bathroom, she didn't mind doing those things. I don't think she ever did a dish while she was living here. But you know what? If you can do that, and that's okay with the people you're negotiating with, go for it! I mean, why wouldn't you? So teach them negotiation. Let them... Learn to problem solve with their siblings as they're growing up and that will again come to roost and I think makes for a better Relationship as adults because they still get to be their own person, but they do value what the other people were doing in their lives as well Make sense hopefully

So Jane speaking of things being equal and equitable and fair and This whole thing, I think one of the things as farm families we miss is that all these little things about things not being fair and everyone being okay with it is when it comes to farm succession, whether it's that the farm gets sold and split or, you know, one sibling takes it over or however that goes, that That being fair seems to destroy so many families. And I mean, we currently have a local family who, I think the issue was that the farmland was sold for less than market value. And the sibling who feels shortchanged has put a series of full sheets of plywood with increasingly Rage filled messages in his front yard, which is in the middle of the family farm on the highway. And you know, this is how they're working through this family issue. And so I'm, I'm, I'm realizing that I don't, I mean I would like our kids to take over the farm. But my biggest goal is that they not hate each other at the end of whatever happens. Um, and so I'm wondering how we can build towards that without there being this pressure that they, you know, get along at all times because mommy will be mad if we're ever upset with each other, you know, I mean, I don't care if they're mad at each other because that's what humans do. They get mad about stuff, but I don't really want to spend eternity rolling over in my grave because my family is writing Incredibly angry messages to each other on 8 foot by 8 foot signs in their front yard. You know, um, It's, I have pictures Arlene, I'll send them to you. They're, yeah, it's a, it's a whole thing. Um, And I mean it's, it's a lot of money. That was getting split up, but still.

Did we mention earlier on that feelings dictate actions? Yeah, that person has some feelings. Here's that perfect example of it. Somebody's feelings are of some... Yeah, some feelings that have not been acknowledged. not been dealt with, and their actions are definitely showing what those feelings are. So, boy, you guys do not take any questions.

I think it's, it's one of those things too in farms, you know, I have friends who've lost farms that they've been running their whole lives because the grandparents decided to split it equally. And then there's, you know, I have a friend who lost a farm because it got split 36 different ways, I think. And like 34 of those people lived in California and saw a paycheck, which is fine. You know, that's, that's their business, but there's no way that somebody is going to be able to buy that out. You know, there's, that's never going to happen. And so, trying to be fair can destroy it faster than anything, I think.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so how we raise our kids for things to be... Um, yeah, he'd be equitable. Yeah. And there's a difference between being equitable and being equal, right? And fairness somewhere in there in the middle of all that we have to figure that out. And I think we've covered a lot of it, um, in some ways. So let's, let's, this is a good question to pull it all back together again, treating people uniquely, not being drawn into, but she, but he, as they're growing up. So that they realize you deal with the problem and the situation, not necessarily the person. And so again, you know, we mentioned that farming life, one advantage that we do have is that farming life, if you grow up on the farm, helping out teaches you life is not fair, right? Animals die, accidents happen. We don't control that weather. A lot of things are out of our control and life isn't fair. The other piece, I think, um, and you, you guys have mentioned it throughout this, I think, is that relationships are never 50 50, right? Sometimes relationships are 90 10, sometimes they're 30 70, they're always changing, always evolving. And that negotiation in there is a part of that. When I can't manage this right now, I'm gonna delegate, I'm gonna reach out for help, we're gonna figure this out together. But right now, maybe I do 90 percent of what needs to be done. I have to say, you know, I, I write notes about a lot of this stuff, just so that if I have to go back to them, they're there. And my husband, Wayne... As I'm sitting there last night deciding to change everything I wanted to say, you know, and I said, Oh, geez, it's almost nine o'clock. Can you go get the get the animals in please? I know it's my job, but I just I need to get this done and I need to get this finished, you know, and he heads out the door and he does those things right even though they're, it was my job to do that tonight as well as do supper tonight, just one of those days, you have to. Bring them up doing those things so that they get used to that at a younger age if you can, right? And I think you guys both have done that with your, with your kids that, you know, we listen, we hear what you're saying, we show lots of empathy, and then we bring reality back to roost. Right now, this is just what needs to happen. I'm sorry you're unhappy with that, but right now, this is what needs to be happening. So, and again, you know, we teach them negotiation and choosing with awareness. What is the outcome you want? What's the best way to do that? You know, and if it isn't fair and you're still getting what you need out of this, is that okay? Right? So, We don't give into extortion or bribery anywhere in there, right? We don't allow people to, to hold that over others. But, you know, we can, we can negotiate for what works in there. It's a, it's a big part of our parenting life in there. But I guess underneath it all, I mean, we always did the three R's, right? Respect for self, respect for others, and respect for the world around you. Those were the rules that our household... Um, ran on partially because we're that old and, you know, reduce, recycle, reuse kind of thing, right? But, we expected you to honour the spirit of that, not the letter of the law. And I think sometimes we get caught up so much in trying to make things equitable, trying to make things equal, when, you know, when they're working together and all of that is happening. We need to sometimes put that aside and say this is the outcome we want, how do we get there? And that's basic problem solving. So we teach kids, and that's one of the reasons why we want them to do a lot of their own problem solving, with the little things that are going on in their life right now, so that they get those skills. And being able to step back and take a breath and just relax and realize that tomorrow is a new day, is And that what happens here right now is going to be okay no matter how we decide to do it. That's a big part of growing up and figuring things out there. So again, we're raising those kids with a backbone that can bend and twist, rather than being that brick wall, rather than being that jellyfish that gets walked on. But also realizing that you need to look at what it is you want and, and, Work in a world towards that rather than always making things fair. Does that make sense? I mean, that's, that's not an easy question to happen because first of all, I think the love of the farm and the love of the land and the ties to the land and the lifestyle are so deeply ingrained in most of us. And I'm a transplant. Right? I came into this, you know, in my early 20s. Now, I was a military family. We, we didn't have any place to call home. We picked up kids as we went through the different provinces, adopted them in. We didn't have those ties. But I've been here 40, over 40 years now. We just celebrated our 40th wedding anniversary this month. Um, the ties to the land are in there and they're entwined in my soul. So again, going back to acknowledging those feelings, but looking at what is the end result you want? Do you want the farm to go on? Do you want, you know, do you want these things to happen? Well then, what do we have to put in place to do that? Um, kids have stress too. There's a game like that called the What If Game, that you, starts off with kids as young as, well as soon as they can talk, really. So about three or four. So, are you guys up for a very quick game? If we play it? Okay, so Arlene, we're going to the zoo. This may be the wrong game with you two because I tell you, you're going to come up with the weirdest things in this and I'm going to be fighting to figure out what one's supposed to answer to this, but if we go to the zoo and you can bring home anything you want, Arlene, what do you want to bring home? I have never had a red panda before and I've been doing this for over 30 years. Okay, if we bring a red panda home, Kate, we gotta feed this thing. What does a panda eat? I don't think red pandas eat bamboo. I feel like maybe they're... Omnivores? See, nobody else would think that. I say this is Arlene's problem, and she better get her ass googling and find out. Because she's the one who wanted to bring the damn hand home. Okay, so anyway, Arlene's going to tell us what red pandas eat, do you know? Okay, so we're going to pretend that they eat... Yeah, they are. So they eat small children. where are we going to get small children from? You know, we're gonna, we're gonna steal them off the street. If it's basically if we feed them, then if we feed them, poop's going to come out the back end. Who's going to clean up the poop? Kate Arlene, because it was her panda. Alright, see also the Smithsonian. Smithsonian Zoo says that red pandas are obligate bamboo eaters, but they also eat roots, succulent grasses, fruits, insects, and grubs, and are known to occasionally kill and eat birds and small mammals. So, small children might be on that list. Yes, there you go. Okay, so then we ask the kids, you know, where do we get this from? Where are we going to get bamboo from? Not easily found around here. And if we feed them, poop comes out. Who's going to clean up the poop? It's about teaching forward thinking. If we want this to happen, what do we have to put in place to make sure we're ready for that and so that we're going in the right direction? And once they can play it as a game, Then we use it for real life. So normally when I teach this, we talk about swimming lessons. We're heading to the pool. Um, when we get to the pool, are you going to go into the change room with mom or with dad? When we get in there, you're going to hang up your clothes on the hooks. You're going to put them in the locker. Then what do we do? And you let the kids come up with the answers. And depending on what their answer is, we look at the problems around that. If we head right into the pool, The lifeguard's gonna holler at us and say, Hey you guys, you don't get to go swimming yet. You gotta go back and have a shower. So Arlene, hot shower or cold shower? Hot shower, good, cause I hate cold showers. And then what do we do next, Kate? After our shower? Walk to the pool? I assume we have our bathing suits on before the shower, right? Exactly, because we got changed, so we headed into there and the lifeguard hollered at us again, Hey, you guys can't go in the pool yet. You gotta go over and sit on the bleachers and wait for your instructor. So do we want to sit on the top bleacher or the low bleacher? I forgot we were at lessons and not at open swim. Bottom bleacher. Okay, so it's basically just helping the child go through step by step so that they've figured out what's coming next, what problems we might come up against and how do we solve that problem. So even kids as young as three and four and five can play the what if game and then we do it, it's, it's basically teaching us so that when we get to be adults. We can do forward thinking and say if we want this to happen, if this is the outcome we want, what do we have to put in place? What are the obstacles that might come up? How are we going to deal with those obstacles? And it, it lessens some of the stress because we've been through the situation in our brain. And so when we come to actually doing it, we have some ideas on the paths that we can take. So, problem solving is one of those things that we can be teaching now with our kids all the way through, so they get better at it as adults. And hopefully, that will come and be helpful when we get into situations that aren't going to be fair, but that we want a certain outcome, how do we do that? So that's the beginning of problem solving for young kids. So, Jane, since this is a very, uh, useful skill, I think, especially where our kids are at right now, do we say our kids are running late every morning? Do we start at the problem and work backwards for what needs to happen to get us out the door on time? Which way do we play this? Which direction do we play this game? Make sure they know how to play the game and do that in a fun way first, right? So that they know how this works and they get used to that so that they've got that, that muscle memory built in there. Or that, uh, the, the solving memory built in there. And then you go back to saying, Hey guys, let's play the what if game about getting out of the house in the morning. Because that seems to be a challenge for us. So let's start when, you know, because we, we have to be out by this time. And then you go back and start, okay, so when we get up, what's the first thing we got to do? And then take them through that step by step. And it involves them, it does a couple of things. It gives you an idea of what's going to happen, right, so that they know what the expectations are. But it also gets them engaged. So you've hooked them in, and they're now part of solving the problem. That buy in is really important. So, we ask, so we're like at our last question. We ask all of our guests, if you were going to dominate a category at the county fair, what would it be? I love this question. It is so out of the box. So, um, because I knew this was coming, I put way too much thought into this. So I started thinking, they need to have a category that is called mental bailer twine and duct tape. So that it's basically a challenge to get the job done, whatever they ask you to do, with whatever is around, without having the appropriate stuff to do it. And then I thought, well, no, no, that's too heady, that's, that's way too, way too complicated. So then I went to a game that we actually play here. And, cause I love our local fairs. We have a game called the Stump Game. And I, I encourage you guys to try this. It doesn't matter what age you are. It levels the playing field. You take two stumps and you place them, I don't know, about ten yards apart. And you take a very, very long rope. Each one of you stands on a stump. And with both feet so that you're a little unstable and you hold the very end of the rope. When somebody says go, you start scooping the rope up hand over hand and pulling it till it's tight. Once the rope is taut between you, your job is to unstump the other person. So you would think it's about power and strength. It has nothing to do with power and strength. It's all strategy. You can hold it tight, and then as the other person pulls, because you've got lots of rope behind you, you can let it slide through your hands, and as they pull hard, off they topple. It becomes quite the game, and so you can have kids that are 5, 6, and 7, uh, unstumping. their adult counterparts on the other log. It's an absolute blast. And I think, so this is when we play here. We were privileged to have a whole bunch of students from the University of Costa Rica um, come up and stay with us for a while here in Canada. They came out to the farm for a unique Canadian Um, camping experience where they camped outside in the backfields and helped around the farm for a while and we played this game and had an absolute blast, but I think for me, it comes down to the fact. I would be awesome at this because I read people. This is what I do for a living, right? So you can tell what the other person is going to do. And I think farming enters into that because we're constantly trying to figure out what that cow is going to do. Right. What that horse is going to do, how to get that last damn chicken into the chicken coop, right? So we're constantly reading what they're going to do and how they're going to act and having strategies for doing that. So I think they should have that at every campfire. So then you, you know, end up with a championship at the end. All right, I guess we'll move into our... Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. There's not. I love that a seven year old where you can have different people of different ages all competing in the same thing. So we will go ahead into our cussing and discussing segment. We have our online platform where you can leave your cussing and discussing audio messages for us and we'll play them on the show or you can always send us an email. Check the show notes for the links to both of those. Katie, what are we cussing and discussing this week from Iowa?

insects. I know they're important. I know they're beneficial. There are. It's may, it's not even peak bugs season yet, and I've done everything I can with, you know, encouraging bats and making sure our screens are tight and. The gnats, the flies, inside, outside, everywhere. I hung a, one of those fly traps that has like the dehydrated fish guts or whatever in it the other day, in the flower bed in front of my house because for whatever reason, the peonies are an absolute fly magnet. And there was literally... An inch of flies within a few hours in this trap. I have bug catcher light things in the house. I have fly tapes. I have like every insect killer known to humankind. And then yesterday, I opened the dishwasher, which is full of clean dishes, and my dishwasher is full of sugar ants. Those little teeny tiny ones? I Too far! And, one of my children brought home lice from school. So like, I just I'm done. No more bugs. I don't care if they're beneficial. I don't like them, and I don't want them in my house, and I don't want them around my house, and I don't want them anywhere near me. I... No! Definitely not in my clean dishes. Ugh. Anyway. Jane, what do you have to cuss and disgust today?

I'm with you on the bugs, first of all. I just think, yeah, they are just horrendous this year. Although the dragonflies have just come out up here, so there is hope in the world. I, I think for me, um, Arlene mentioned we, uh, became grandparents a year and a half ago. And for me, I think it's about getting old. You know, we're, I'm now in that generation of where you better do what you want to do and you better do it now. So live life with intention. Get out there. Um, bugs are no bugs. Wear your bug jackets. Take those trips. Go and visit those people you want to visit. Eat what you want to eat, because tomorrow is not guaranteed. And as much as we just reached the retirement age around here, we're finding that we don't have the energy, we don't have, um, the resources, um, and the physical ability to do some of the things that we were hoping to do in our retirement. So don't wait for it. Go and do it now. Don't get old. It's a trap. Yeah, do what you want to do and do it now. It's a good one I know that Katie and I are both in Multi generational family farm situations and I know that in my case. I'm definitely Seeing those situations in the the generations ahead of us. So I hope that I will Keep that in mind Especially going into summer right make the time to go to the beach or do you take take the family trip even if it's only two Yeah. Exactly. And you guys got together. I think that's... Yeah, it is definitely... You know, it's... Even this weekend we had two parties, despite the fact that we had hay down. And the hay got done. It always gets done. Um, but I think especially with farming, remembering that... The work will never be done. I mean, the hay got done. There's still feed to grind. There's still 58 million other things to do. The kids aren't getting any younger. We're not getting any younger. You still have to just make the time to do it. And I know it's easier said than done. I absolutely know that. But, it's, there's never going to be a magic day that everything is finished. So, you might as well just figure it out. Oh, thanks. Yeah. Anyway, Arlene, what do you have to custom discuss today? And I like your shirt, by the way. This is very snazzy. Real. I like it. There you go. Yeah. Take my word for it, listeners. Arlene looks really nice. You can, uh, sign up for her Patreon and then you can see what she looks like. I was thinking about it as we were recording because I didn't plan anything ahead. Um, but mine is one of those good news, bad news scenarios. So... It's the stage I'm in where I've got, like most listeners know, if you've been listening for a while, I've got a daughter and then I've got three sons. And so our three boys right now are 15, 12 and 8. And a lot of the time they actually play quite well together. Some of the, a lot of that time is playing video games, but they enjoy doing it together and with a range of ages it's fun that they can have something that they enjoy doing together. But there are moments now where I'm realizing that I am getting the one getting left out. So that scenario that Katie was talking about, and Jane was talking to us about, about reflecting on, you know, the positives, and also reminding myself that I want these kids to build relationships with each other is a good thing. So I have to remember that them hanging out together and excluding me is actually a positive, even though sometimes it's like, hey, I'm still cool. I know I'm no good at that game, and you're all going to beat me in the first round, but maybe I could play or... I could just go read my book and enjoy my time. So I know that this is not a stage that all of our listeners are at. If your kids are still attached to you at all times, I get that and I was definitely there. But there will come a day where you're not cool anymore and they don't want to play with you. So good news, bad news.

Arlene, I was thinking about that while we were talking today too, that, you know, right now if I do something weird, my kid thinks it's hilarious and they think it's great. And I know the day is coming soon that they will be horrified to be associated with me. And that's fine. Lots of people have been horrified to be associated with me through the years. Thank you, Jane, for the separation is natural and necessary. That was something I needed to hear today as well. So, that was, uh, my little lesson among all the lessons. So, thank you, Jane, for joining us again. It was amazing to chat with you again and get your insights. And, um, if listeners want to connect with you, do you have somewhere where they could get in touch?

Um, yeah, we, uh, you can get us on the internet, our website, uh, for, uh, Crow and the Early On Child and Family Centre is, uh, crowlanark. com, and so you can find us there, or if you want to talk to me directly, I have a Facebook page that is... Crow Parent Education, and you can message me there. And if you just want some tips on parenting, some tips on mental health, and even tips, things to do with your kids, we actually have a YouTube channel. So our YouTube channel is what Crow stands for, Children's Resources on Wheels. And they're just short little videos, 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes. And, uh, you can catch us on there. That's available. Just go to... Children's resources on wheels, hit videos, and there's lots to choose from. Any with my smiling face are always about, uh, behaviour and about parenting. When you see the other facilitators on there, there's everything from literacy and play doh and math, all sorts of things to just check in about. Thanks for joining us again, Jane. Thanks for having us on. I just have to say going back through all your different broadcasts, you have had an amazing array of people on here. Boy, have you ever had just, you cover everything and it's funny. So much of it is great information and you guys are hilarious. Just gotta say. Well, thanks. Thank you for joining us on Barnyard Language. If you enjoy this show, we encourage you to support us by becoming a patron. Go to www. patreon. coms backslash barnyard language to make a small monthly donation to help cover the costs of making this show. Please rate and review the podcast and follow the show so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Facebook, as Barnyard Language, and on Twitter we are Barnyard Pod. If you want to connect with other farming families, you can join our private Barnyard Language Facebook group. We are always in search of guests for the podcast. If you or someone you know would like to chat with us, please get in touch. We are a proud member of the Positively Farming Media Podcast Network.