[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss bodies.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

[00:00:20] Nina Endrst: Hello. You ready to talk about some deeply personal shit?

[00:00:25] Anna Toonk: I am. Always.

[00:00:27] Nina Endrst: Me too. I've been thinking a lot about this topic.

[00:00:30] Anna Toonk: Same. I feel like I have so much to say slash want to discuss that it's almost like my brain just implodes, so I can't wait. I almost started with a joke and then I remembered that everybody wasn't with us before we hit record.

[00:00:52] Nina Endrst: And that's what we're trying to avoid.

[00:00:54] Anna Toonk: It's true. It's true. We want you all to feel a part of it. Not be like sorry, y'all inside joke.

[00:01:01] Nina Endrst: So annoying.

[00:01:03] Anna Toonk: So annoying. So dumb.

[00:01:06] Nina Endrst: So our topic this week is bodies I was just going to say that. Body ody ody ody ody. Body rolls. Yeah, we're body rolling at this moment. We can't see each other. We decided to turn off our cameras after I had a breakdown, essentially that time during the emotion's episode after my I just you know stopped working but it's nice this way because I think we can focus more There's too much going on And I'm also sick of looking at a fracking screen

[00:01:40] Anna Toonk: I don't mind it because I don't know like I don't love being on camera and I just find it distracting I mean I don't think of myself as a particularly vain or narcissistic person but man you put that camera on and I'm like I just got to look at me and it's because it wasn't just feels weird to like stare at someone else But the joke I was making or that Nina and I were both making was like don't worry I'll be thinking about your body

[00:02:09] Nina Endrst: Oh man

[00:02:10] Anna Toonk: I have a definition

[00:02:12] Nina Endrst: Give me the definition please

[00:02:14] Anna Toonk: So body and then now in plural bodies the physical structure and material substance of an animal or plant living or dead to a corpse carcass Yup Yup Yup Yup

[00:02:30] Nina Endrst: Just got real

[00:02:31] Anna Toonk: They've always got to make it weird bodied body bodying

[00:02:37] Nina Endrst: Bodying is a word

[00:02:38] Anna Toonk: Thank you Yeah it is to invest with or as with a body

[00:02:45] Nina Endrst: Huh So I'm not embodying but I'm bodying well how do you use that in a sentence

[00:02:50] Anna Toonk: They don't give an example which makes me think that they're trolling us but it's the verb and it used with object So yeah I guess you would be I feel like I've heard bodying in terms of like oh that wall was bodying the blah blah blah or something like that I don't know that I've ever heard of it Like as a person you know or so then the other thing was to represent in a as a verb in bodily form usually followed by fourth bodily forth I don't sometimes I'm like

[00:03:24] Nina Endrst: is that a typo Do they mean force

[00:03:27] Anna Toonk: Yeah maybe no but yeah maybe like sometimes dictionary.com I'm supposed to Be learning And yet I was left with more questions but I think essentially when we're talking about body bodies body the physical structure material substance of an animal or plant living or dead and man

[00:03:48] Nina Endrst: so much to say

[00:03:49] Anna Toonk: so much to say

[00:03:50] Nina Endrst: what is the most important to you to start with personally professionally ethically emotionally emotionally spiritually

[00:04:03] Anna Toonk: Oh I guess I think it has been one of my greatest struggles and journeys I'm all for body positivity However it has been one of my greatest struggles and journeys just to figure out how the fuck to accept I'm a human being in a body I mean I remember when you and I first really met and started talking I feel like you would talk about embodiment all the time Not all the time but you just use the word

[00:04:34] Nina Endrst: It's kind of my jam

[00:04:36] Anna Toonk: Yeah And I was like this is so interesting you know because I think you have a lot of natural embodiment And for me it's like I think I have a lot of qualities that I embody I have a lot of things I'm good at but like when it came to really connecting the dots that being in a body allowed me to do that was like Always where I would be like Nope you know my weight has fluctuated my whole life I was put on my first diet at like five and yeah it's not good if you're thinking about doing that with your kids I might say don't that it really made it difficult for me to learn how to be in a body and just be in realized it's Really one of our greatest privileges in life is that we get to be in a body And we're not just air that we're not just like floating that we have this brilliant machine in a way that allows us to do everything we want to do Like I remember when I started trying to take weight out of how I felt about my body and would be like Practicing more gratitude and was like you love to go get coffee in the morning Like what do you think allows you to do that Your body start there But I think it's so complicated and difficult too for women you know like I don't think your journey to embodiment has been so much easier just because like you're thin you know like I'm way past that in terms of making those kinds of ignorant assumptions But I am curious I think it's really difficult as a woman to be embodied Cause I don't think being in a body always feels safe and for me for multiple reasons it it didn't so like really existing I think in my head and my feelings and my intuition like all these other things and being like Ooh from the neck down like I don't know it's just kind of a wreck down there you know or something

[00:06:42] Nina Endrst: it's there

[00:06:43] Anna Toonk: it's there It it seems to take me from place to place or whatever I'm curious how embodiment happened for you

[00:06:52] Nina Endrst: It was the nicest compliment I think I've ever received that You just said I mean you said a lot of other nice stuff about you know you and things that are but you told me I was naturally embodied That was like the highest compliment It was not an easy journey and it's by the way a daily I was just thinking before I came out here I was having camomile tea And I'm like what a fucking Aries you are that you could drink like two cups of camomile tea and then go record a podcast But there's so much fire in my body that I'm like I need the downers you know

[00:07:26] Anna Toonk: but it's not palpable like spoiler for everybody Nina and I hung out last weekend

[00:07:32] Nina Endrst: with our bodies With our actual bodies Yeah Now you've seen me move around in my home like the most

[00:07:39] Anna Toonk: It's true And I've seen you I mean I'm a creep I'm always kind of unapologetically like observing people And it's interesting because I definitely think you're fiery like for sure And but you don't feel that way I think because again it's embodied I think you you're grounding it You're channeling it which I think is just very interesting

[00:08:01] Nina Endrst: I think that's why I'm here Like talking to you I think there the only reason I do this work why I read tarot, why I teach movement, why I meditate and teach it in all of that is because it's been such a journey for me. And is still a journey for me to be in my body to understand my body, to be kind to my body. I mean, you know, we've talked about this briefly here, and I've talked about it a lot in my work earlier in my work writing about it.

You know, when I, I think I was really comfortable in my body until, you know, maybe before that, but definitely after I was abused, I jumped out of it, and a lot happened around that age and it just it was so easy to be in grief and it was so easy to be in emotion or just doing something else that anger. I wasn't so angry yet, but mostly emotion that I didn't inhabit my body for a long time.

And in college it's so interesting because if you had met me in my twenties or in my, you know, late teens, I think you fire would have like spillith over.

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.

And that is a big part of the journey is I don't think I realized how much I need water and earth. I mean, for me, everything, but earth is like the number one for me, just in terms of breathing and actually sitting on the earth and doing all of my movement practices, close to the earth, as many as possible.

I was, I just paying attention to those cues. But the journey I think, has been rough and also a huge blessing because I wouldn't be doing what I love to do if I hadn't listened to all of those peaks and valleys. And I was really sick for a long time. And I think that was the final kind of push for me of, you have to be here.

Like you cannot leave it. This is what leaving it does. You get sick and you get really sick and you can't use your legs as much. And you know, I couldn't walk upstairs at points. And obviously there are people out there who have been much sicker than this, but it was many years of on and off really chronic illness.

And I just, one day decided I couldn't leave anymore, you know, and it's a discipline. And I tell that to clients all the time that they I'm like, you don't want to hear this. That's okay. It doesn't just happen. You have to keep at it. You have to really honor and come to it every day, multiple times a day. How are you, what are you feeling like body?

I think it took me and I'm curious. I don't think I'm like unique in this. I think I'm just able to sort of name it. And that weight was a huge barrier for me in terms of like what I thought my body deserved and care treatment. If like why, but sort of withhold things or stuff. I'm curious like, I mean, I called it weight, but really, I think it was trauma to be honest, like now.

The good thing I think about anything that you have that sort of chronic, or you've been told as a problem is it's like this really convenient, garbage can that you can throw everything into. I think in trying to be in partnership with my body, I had to like, look at a lot of that and being like, what does that actually mean?

Like, do you really think that you aren't deserving of care or medical treatment or respect or meeting your needs or whatever, because of an arbitrary number? And I was like, no, no, that seems weird. Yeah. And I learned a lot in developing a relationship with my body about the process of like moving between intellectualizing something and then embodying it so that our emotional body really gets it and integrates it.

Cause I remember talking to my therapist and being like, oh my gosh, I like feel so differently. Or like I'm doing this. And she's like, yeah, because it's embodied. You're doing it from an embodied place. It's a very different experience. And I'm like, it is, it does feel really different. And I think when I was healing trauma, I felt everything really acutely in my body.

And that was sort of a scary process. It was like this weird dichotomy where like my body had to be really extreme to get my attention. Like I used to faint a lot, and I think it was literally just because like, I wasn't listening, you know. I wasn't paying attention. I mean, who knows I think I had some other stuff going on, but anyway. I do think it's like, I would be like, oh my God, this crazy thing happened.

And then, you know, someone would be like, you went to a yoga class and then you went for a run. You didn't eat a lot. And then you met us and had drinks. Like, of course you fainted, you know? And I would be like, oh, I think that's weird, you know, like I just.

What's with the fainting? I just...

I was like, that's so weird. Or, you know, and then we'd be like, you know, I think it was like your body being like, okay, this bitch has ignored everything else. Like let's just like lights out, you know, like maybe that'll get her attention. But I'm curious. I guess it's like, did you have to learn how to give yourself permission to take care of yourself?

Oh my God. I still do. I, I mean, if you want to ask them.

The self gaslighting is like real.

You know, that vessel deck from Ms. Mary. Yeah. Well, for the past four days I've been choosing the same two cards. That deck has zero chill.

Zero chill. Yeah.

Ready number one: abundance number two: anxiety. And I'm like, haha, heard. I mean, I had no idea how to take care of myself and I had no idea and I definitely didn't give myself permission to do that. But also it just was painful to be in my body I think. Yes. It was just painful. And most of that had to do with the male gaze. Yes. And just feeling so objectified and unsafe in my body.

And like at any point somebody was going to point to it or touch it without my permission, because that would happen. Obviously it happens to us all the time. And I was just so sick of it that, I mean, for a long time. And I used to make jokes at this, which isn't funny at all, but I got so angry that I would just put myself in these situations with men on the street, by the way. Strangers. Where I would like get in fights with men, like just fights. Same.

And, and I was like, I don't give a fuck. Like I used to call my parents and they'd be like, please, please stop fighting with random men on the street. Like you just don't know. And I just didn't care at that point. It's so sad to say that. That didn't make me feel unsafe in my body. I mean, now I can go to the health food store and I see someone like glance at me and I was like, I'm like, where's the exit. But that wasn't in my body, you know, I'm so in my body that sometimes I'm hypervigilant too much.

Yeah, it was so hard for me to take care of myself. And I honestly think that there were many reasons why I got chronically ill, but one of them was because I ignored myself for so long, and I refuse to take care of myself that it was extreme. And it had to be. And it changed everything in my life and I wouldn't change it for anything but that the crash for me was, was it.

And every day I'm not scared of being sick, you know? And I think people who have anxiety can probably relate to this being scared of the next panic attack. And sometimes you're like just being, I used to carry like medication in my purse that I wouldn't even take, but it just made me feel better that like, if I was on the subway and I had a panic attack, which I often did, I could just take something, you know, but with the chronic illness, it was the same for a while where I'm like, okay, now I'm, now I'm good.

So anytime I felt a little bit off, I'm like, oh no, is it coming back? Yeah, but once that faded and I just started to treat myself so differently, my life is really designed and I'm very privileged obviously to be chill. Like that's what my body responds to. And I think for a lot of us, there's a way for us, every one of us to find those pockets or to take things away in life there, you know, allowing us to jump out all the time or demanding that we jump out all the time. It's just different for everyone.

You know, some people I just asked a client to like put post-it notes on her computer, like to get up and breathe in the middle of the day, because it's not realistic for her at this moment to be on she's on zoom calls from 7:00 AM to. 7:00, 8:00, 9:00 PM to be like, just like chill, man. Just do some yoga in the middle of the day, you know? So everybody has to find those little sweet pockets to check in with your body. Isn't that just the foundation?

Are you seeking interconnection and thoughtful instruction with grounded humans, but don't know where to start?

[00:17:35] Anna Toonk: We get it. It's a cluttered world making it even harder to find the right tools for existing.

[00:17:41] Nina Endrst: That's why we created The Soul Unity, a digital community with movement, meditation, and spiritual wellness classes for everyone.

[00:17:48] Anna Toonk: It's your personal online roadmap to wellness for mind, body and soul.

[00:17:52] Nina Endrst: Listeners of this podcast can get two weeks free by going to the membership page of thesoulunity.com and selecting the how to be human option in the dropdown menu.

[00:18:01] Anna Toonk: Sign up today for full access to our robust library of contents. New classes are added weekly.

So the indoctrination started so young for me about weight and. My body being like an issue, like in terms of also like sexuality of like just developing, like I got boobs crazy early and stuff. As a little kid, I internalized all of it as just bad as like negative of like, I have this ungovernable body, you know, and was like, well, I don't know what to do. And it felt like people kept pointing out, like you're a mess, but no one was like here's some paper towels. Like I was like, I don't know what to do. You know?

Like, I don't know how to make this better, you know? So I think that that really started for me like, I don't know what to do about it. No, one's really giving me guidance other than like, reduce yourself really was like to prioritize being thin above anything else. You know, that I was like, I think I'm just going to like check out from this, you know, that, and even like, it was crazy.

So I had cancer when I was 26 and even when I was doing a milder form of chemo, but I was still pretty fucking sick and people were like, you know, you're, you're getting a treatment, and it's like a weight loss plan.

[00:19:33] Nina Endrst: People did not say that to you.

[00:19:35] Anna Toonk: Yes they did. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:38] Nina Endrst: Why did you know, let me ask you this. Did you know? No. I want to know what you thought of your body before people started commenting on your body.

[00:19:47] Anna Toonk: I don't remember a time. I really don't.

[00:19:50] Nina Endrst: How fucking sad is that? Yeah. Not that I'm throwing you a pity party cause you're obviously a queen, but how fucked up.

[00:19:58] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Well, to be honest, it's been so normalized to me and it's been through friends to be honest, that things were pointed out to me of like, that's fucked up, you know. Like I remember when a friend came to Thanksgiving and she's like, It's bizarre to me that your weight was the topic of conversation for 20 minutes. Like my family never mentioned my weight much less.

[00:20:22] Nina Endrst: They talked about it.

[00:20:23] Anna Toonk: At Thanksgiving, at the table there was this huge debate because I had lost weight and it was like, how was I going to handle men hitting on me and all this stuff. Like as if I couldn't fuck when I was fat, you know, like, I mean, I don't want to brag of, I mean, I've always been catching dick so.

[00:20:40] Nina Endrst: I'm sure you've caught plenty.

[00:20:43] Anna Toonk: Thank you. And thank you for affirming that for me, but it's just flying through the fly. I just am like bat that one away.

[00:20:52] Nina Endrst: I hope you all enjoyed that picture in your mind.

[00:20:56] Anna Toonk: Well, I'm not interested. So it was very normalized in my family. So there were people in my family. It was, you were kind of on one side or the other. You were either someone who very naturally was slim and didn't really struggle to maintain, you know, your weight, whatever that means.

And then there was the other category of people who were more predisposed to weight gain. And that was always being discussed. Like my grandfather was always on some kind of diet. My mom was like determined that I wouldn't have a weight issue and yet almost directly caused one. My mom was like, it makes me laugh.

I remember when I connected the dots like years ago and I was like, Hey mom, remember when you didn't want us to eat sugar, watch television. Or eat ketchup? And she's like, and I'm like, and I am obsessed with sugar, work in television, and put ketchup on anything that I can, that really worked out. Huh? She was like thank you for the update.

[00:22:02] Nina Endrst: Job well done. Do you think if she had said nothing things would be different?

[00:22:09] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I do. I mean, I had eating disorders as well. Don't want to brag once again.

[00:22:14] Nina Endrst: Oh my god, Anna, you're making me look bad.

[00:22:17] Anna Toonk: I think it's possible that eating disorders would have fired when my dad died, to be honest, like, cause I do think you're genetically predisposed. Like I don't think my mom caused me to have an eating disorder. I forget what the analogy is they use like. Like the person's the gun, the like eating disorders, like the bullet and then like traumas.

[00:22:37] Nina Endrst: We don't talk, we don't talk about G U N's in this family. I know you're from the south.

[00:22:43] Anna Toonk: It's kind of, we're not, it's kind of a brutal analogy as well as like, why are we talking about guns?

[00:22:49] Nina Endrst: Stop, stop. You said it too many times. Can you plead that out?

[00:22:53] Anna Toonk: I think I was predisposed to be like fucked up about food and eating like in some way in my brain. I think that already resigned, you know? I was so targeted. Like I have a younger brother and yet it was like, there were snacks he could have, there were snacks I wasn't allowed to have.

And when I went back and saw photos and saw that I had a very normal body, like I had imagined that I was like this really fat kid. And I was like, oh, I'm totally normal. I was so angry. I was like, I feel the rage. I had to leave. I remember I was at my mom's house and I saw, I was like going through these photos and I was like, how?

Or I think I knew how old I was because of like, I don't know. I think like first communion or something, like I could figure out how old I was. And I was like, you were already being a dick to me about my weight and look at me. I'm a totally fucking normal child. And she's like, well, I mean, notice your cheeks are a little bit fuller.

And I was like, I need to leave the house. I'm so angry. I remember it so vividly. I feel about how I turned out. I kind of didn't stand a chance in a way. And then it's hard for me to even imagine, cause it would be so different than how my mom was. Something that was interesting for me, as well as like I see a nutritionist and she pointed out that 1985 was like a new peak in terms of advertising weight loss sale. Like that really the weight loss industry, as we know it was reaching new heights and peak when I was put on my first diet.

So it's tempting as it is to like, you know, fully blame your family and your, you know, your parents or everything. I do think it's a majorly cultural issue. And I also think like it's a way. Something I've been reading about is family roles. And it's interesting. I asked my mom, I said, I have a theory that I was treated as like, kind of the identified patient in our family as a way to not kind of deal with lots of the other stuff going on.

And I mean, anyone who I talked to agrees with that. Like my therapy and my therapist is the one who suggested it. And my mom was like, no, absolutely not. Anna, you were the joy.

[00:25:16] Nina Endrst: I feel like Southern people are so good at gaslighting.

[00:25:19] Anna Toonk: I was just like, ah, that's not what it felt like.

[00:25:28] Nina Endrst: What was the message that we were all receiving when we like left our houses? I mean, the amount of commenting that you had on your body that I had very differently. And certainly not as harmful in some ways, but then like I was so over-sexualized in other ways that it was just so disturbing to me. And I remember getting my, I got my period so early, and I had boobs when I was like 10. Big boobs. And all of the boys would just, I mean, comment on my boobs, want to touch my boobs.

[00:26:04] Anna Toonk: To my face.

[00:26:06] Nina Endrst: To my face.

[00:26:07] Anna Toonk: To my face. Like, not even hiding it. I remember in like fourth or fifth grade, I was always friends with a lot of boys. I don't know if you were.

[00:26:19] Nina Endrst: Like I had, I had really good girlfriends, like core, but I was friends with all the guys.

[00:26:24] Anna Toonk: Same. Yeah.

[00:26:25] Nina Endrst: I think it was a way to just be like, don't fuck with me motherfuckers. Like you will.

[00:26:31] Anna Toonk: I'd like to break also. Well, yes. And I think I'd like to a break from the drama of girls, you know.

[00:26:37] Nina Endrst: Oh yeah, I never messed with that.

[00:26:39] Anna Toonk: Yeah. But I remember walking up to like a group of my guy friends in like fourth or fifth grade, we're all standing around talking. And I was like, and they were like, have you seen, Anna's like, they're huge. And I was like, whoa, I felt so betrayed. Because they were talking about all of our boobs and I was just like, y'all, can't do this somewhere else? I mean, granted, it was like literally in the classroom, like where else are they going to do?

Like go to a bar or a baby bar, but the sexualization, I think it's like a common misconception that only thin women like get sexualized. I think every single woman get sexualized.

[00:27:17] Nina Endrst: Of course.

[00:27:18] Anna Toonk: And I wonder like with, like, with a thinner bodied person, I think a lot of people think that they are convinced themselves that like women are inviting it or like, because they just exist. And I think if you're in a larger body, they're like, you should be grateful.

[00:27:36] Nina Endrst: A hundred percent.

[00:27:37] Anna Toonk: It's just all of it's bizarre. And I wonder what it is that makes us incapable of discussing other people's bodies, because I try really hard at this point, not to discuss people's bodies.

[00:27:49] Nina Endrst: Never.

[00:27:50] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Especially like, not from a weight standpoint, but like, I, you know, I have friends who were chronically ill and stuff like that. Like I'll check in and, you know, just be like, how's your body feeling lately or something like that. I'm trying the best I can to divest from a lot of that. And also I guess, divest from a lot of what harmed me, but also really decide on what I think or what I want to do. And I have you know, started working out again, and it's been really interesting to approach movement and working out from a place of just like, it feels good and you know, I'm trying the best I can to not let any diet mentality enter it or weight loss.

Or like any expectation other than I'm getting older. I feel stiffness setting in and my anxiety has been heightened and working out has always been a good way for me to manage that. I'm trying to really, really, really come back to time and time again, and really center it in like as a way to gratify my body versus it's like punishment I have to do for this unruly body.

[00:29:12] Nina Endrst: I think that's the only way to, in my experience that it, number one feels good, but number two, it actually connects you to the other parts of you like your mind or your soul. When you're letting something sink in on a physical level and when you're going to it for nourishment, rather than punishment, it's different.

It just hits different, you know. It's enjoyment or it, maybe if you're not enjoying it, you're like freeing yourself in some way or from something. I found that is definitely the key to a lot for me personally, and for a lot of people that I work with. But I talk about this a lot with classes and I was just saying this to somebody who couldn't believe the time.

Who was it? Oh, I think it was my acupuncturist. She was like, I really need to start doing movement again, but I don't have an hour. Well, you don't need an hour. You know, why spending 15 or 20 minutes is dedicated to like feeling yourself in space and moving something and strengthening is beneficial. And if that's all you have use it, you know. But I also, when I became a mom, my body, I mean, I gave birth naturally. And that was like the most embodied I've ever been.

[00:30:32] Anna Toonk: I don't know that it gets more full on than that.

[00:30:35] Nina Endrst: No, no, it doesn't. And there was one moment where I was sitting, no, I was on the floor and I started to cry and I don't cry very easily in those circumstances because I just, it's hard for me to be vulnerable that way. And I was crying.

Nobody told me that I was going to die. It just felt like so much. I was shedding so much, but so much of it was like things that didn't belong to me and just stepping into this really powerful moment of like, I'm birthing a human right now. So I'm taking it back and whatever parts of me I didn't have access to, or didn't feel, you know, were mine were scattered out there.

You know, guys I used to sleep with things like that that I don't. I used to think about where, oh god, I can't believe I slept with him. And I let you know that person have access to my energy or my body or whatever. I wish that didn't happen. Blah, blah, blah. And in that moment, in those moments, it was 22 hours.

I really felt like it was just this really powerful and painful, but mostly powerful just retrieval of that. Then there's the, for me anyway, there was the, the, the recovery, which felt really good only because I made myself stay there, and I wanted to be there in it and just feel how I was experiencing it.

Even like the mastitis, which is painful and being up all night and being exhausted. But I wanted to treat my body as, as kindly as possible and constantly thank it for its work. And that feels like such an energy booster for me. And thank you for this arm. Thank you for walking me to the kitchen. All of that stuff that you mentioned earlier, just the gratitude really goes, it goes a long way.

I want to talk and ask you too, about how you think sex. We can do, we'll do a whole episode on sex, but sex and bodies, bodies and sex. What do you got for me?

[00:32:51] Anna Toonk: Well, I'm a very sexual person. I just, yeah, you know.

[00:32:57] Nina Endrst: You're a horndog.

[00:32:57] Anna Toonk: I am. I am a horndog I mean, but I'm kind of.

[00:33:00] Nina Endrst: You hide it well though.

[00:33:01] Anna Toonk: It's true. Something I've really thought a lot about lately is like, I think I project a lot of fear around rejection onto my body, and really it's not really anything to do with it because if I'm comfortable with someone I've no problem. Like I've never been the person who's like keep the lights off, you know, or I'm not uncomfortable or insecure. But I think like I've never been particularly slutty, which, I mean, I just like enjoy. I enjoy saying the words slutty. I don't really believe in sluts. I think that's a social construct, but I haven't slept with like that many people, you know.

[00:33:40] Nina Endrst: How many people have you slept with? I'm just kidding. You don't have to share that.

[00:33:44] Anna Toonk: I don't care. I mean, probably, I would say under 20 at this point, to be honest, which, I mean, I don't know. I would, let's say under 30 and I'm 41 years old.

[00:33:56] Nina Endrst: So that's a good number. Yeah, I don't, I mean, like, I think there's a bad one, but I just, think that's a good amount of experience.

[00:34:03] Anna Toonk: I mean, I didn't have my first one night stand until I was like 32, you know, of just like. And it was funny. Like, I don't think he was someone, he was like someone like out of a relationship and I think kind of heartbroken to be honest, but he was like, so do we like date now? And I was like, I don't know. Do you want to? You know, I think that's somewhere that I have been really self-protective to be honest. Like, I was definitely something of like a make-out bandit when I was younger.

But like, when it really came down to like letting, giving someone access to my body or like wanting access to theirs, I think I had to know I trusted you on some level. So that's always like a good barrier, like people that I was definitely sexually attracted to definitely wanted a bone. I would be like, Hmm.

I don't feel safe with them. You know, there would just be something that I just was like, eh. I think, because I don't really have an in-between that if I'm interested in having sex with you, I'm like, let's do stuff. Let's get weird. Dah, dah, dah, dah. You know that I'm either in or I'm out, you know.

[00:35:11] Nina Endrst: I just used to have sex with all my friends.

[00:35:13] Anna Toonk: Your what?

[00:35:14] Nina Endrst: I just used to have sex with all my friends.

[00:35:16] Anna Toonk: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

[00:35:18] Nina Endrst: I mean, yeah. Ill-advised in some ways, but it was very much.

[00:35:22] Anna Toonk: I would get into like situation ships where we would like maybe hook up. Yeah. Because I think, but I think that for me was less about my, I think it was being somewhat protective around my body, but it was also like of this fear of rejection.

Like I knew we weren't going to become something. So it was like safe, you know, like. I don't know. It's just really. I was talking to this woman, Susie Tucker. She does family constellations. She's really, really interesting. You might really like her actually. She's an older woman, a friend gifted me a session with her and she exploded my brain on multiple fronts.

[00:36:01] Nina Endrst: Oh I'm down. Susie Tucker.

[00:36:03] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And I was like, you know, I said something to her about like, you know, and I'm now, I'm like 40 and I'm not married. And is that weird or some, you know, like I was just more kind of like streams of consciousness. Like here's my big ball of stuff. What do you think of it kind of shit. And she was like, honestly, Anna, if you told me you were like married and had been with someone for many years and were like really happy, I would have been shocked based on like your history.

And I was like, really? And she just like, have, gave me a lot of insight around that, which I find really interesting. But like, I had a really hard time, I think claiming my sexuality because I was definitely like interested from a young age, but had also been abused. So that was weird. Had weird stuff happen as a teenager, but still was horned up, you know, like was still like very interested.

And yet also felt like, but I don't want to kind of get marked, you know. Like there was still a lot of slut-shaming and it's an interesting, I've reconnected with someone who was a really good friend when I was in high school. And she was like crazy slut-shamed when we were in high school and it literally, it was just because she was smart and beautiful in my opinion.

You know, and I said that to her, I was like, you don't have to tell me shit, but I was like, I knew your secrets. Like for all I can tell, you only slept with like two of those dudes, maybe three, you know, and yet the school was so mad about it. And also I think every girl was jealous and every guy wanted to fuck you.

And that's all that, that was about, it was like an entitlement of like how dare this person have this power and I don't know. I think all of that was really, it took me a while to work some of that stuff off of where I fell on it. How about you?

[00:38:00] Nina Endrst: Oh, ooh, it's interesting because I feel like I've read a lot about which makes total sense. Like when people are abused, when children are abused, you know, they tend to go through puberty earlier or become kind of interested in sex before their peers in some instances, in many instances. It's not with the abuse in mind, obviously it's just, something happens to your brain, you know?

So I was definitely curious and interested and sexually active before I should have been for me, way too early. It was not ever like a great experience, you know? I mean, I had fun.

[00:38:48] Anna Toonk: No? Teenage boys. Like, I mean, I shouldn't be assuming you were sleeping with boys, but yeah. No. Why are we all in such a rush to have like teenage sex, which is the worst of all?

[00:39:01] Nina Endrst: My mom picked me up from his house and he was this guy was yo, he had some issues, you guys like. He was not a mean person, but he was adopted and like very much going through something. And he, at one point he was like I was walking around his mailbox with, I mean, his mailboxes neighborhood with a bat hitting people's mailboxes.

And he'd be like showing me his like pills. And he was just, he was very much on these trouble struggling in trouble. I was like, I'm going to sleep with you. Also his name. I shouldn't say his name, but I'm going to, his name was Jimmy Hendrix.

[00:39:41] Anna Toonk: No, Oh my god. That's too good.

[00:39:46] Nina Endrst: I know. And then, you know, I dated someone for a long time, like five years of all of high school and into college. And he was mildly abusive in some ways, but never that way, but it was like this way that I got some power back. And also I knew I had what I needed in my hands, which was so fucked up for so long that I could just like bend things and I would be like, you, I want to have sex with you just because I feel like it, or because I feel like I'm angry.

So I, I want to, you know, get some energy out. So I'm going to just, and it was just so unhealthy. And also, I always felt really, especially in my later life, I always felt so used after, even though I was the one. Yeah. Usually. You know, positioning the people. I was, I mean, I was very aggressive.

[00:40:40] Anna Toonk: It's so funny cause I was that's what, how a lot of my really good friends were as well.

[00:40:48] Nina Endrst: When I'm at my husband, I'm sure he's going to love me talking about our sex life, but he doesn't care, but...

[00:40:52] Anna Toonk: Good test to see if he's listening. JK.

[00:40:59] Nina Endrst: But he, when I met my husband, I was like, Oh. Got it. Because the people that I did have healthy sexual relationships with were not emotionally available. And so it was like access to my body all whenever, however, but it was like, oh no, but we can't like date. I'm not, I'm just like, not in that. You're too good for me. You know, that was a big conversation. Right. You're too good for me, but like, we can definitely hook up. And I believed them. I believed them.

I was too good for them, but I didn't understand that. And that's so sad because I would just give them access to my body without anything else. And it was just so sad for so long. And I would go on these trips with my friends and they would be in these like healthy relationships with like men that adored them and I'd be with the fuck boy.

And yeah, he was fun or whatever, but it, he never would do shit for me or even. Nothing. I was just always picking up the drunk pieces or whatever, you know. And when I met my husband, I was like, oh. When I stopped and honored myself and I'll share something that I can't believe I'm sharing, but I'm going to. Right before I met my husband, I slept with this guy in Mexico where I lived and he was horrible to me.

Like it was really, really, really bad. And it happened in like an instant and he was so nice until, well, he wasn't so nice. He was, I knew he was a dick, but he was nice ish and it was whatever. And he treated me so horribly and dropped me off. And I went in the ocean like 45 times that night.

Cause I was like, I need to wash this off, but it really was like the final straw for me. I'm like, I'm not taking this shit anymore from these, from anyone from any man, they do not have access to me. Period. Like I don't need to do this. What is this about me? What am I scared of? And I really do think it was intimacy for so long.

I would just wouldn't my body was, I could fling it around and do whatever and treat it like shit and have sex with whoever, but to stay in it. To be seen in it differently and to be safe in it was a completely different experience. And then when I met my husband, it kind of, it really all clicked of, oh wow. You don't have to compromise yourself to be embodied that way. That's why I married him. Had a baby with him.

[00:43:50] Anna Toonk: I think it's really difficult as we start to wrap up.

[00:43:57] Nina Endrst: Let's just talk about bodies all day. I can't stop picturing your body.

[00:44:01] Anna Toonk: I'm still picturing your body. I think intimacy was also my fear. And so it was like, I think for me, because I had been sent the message that my, and this is no matter where I was, even when I was like pretty thin, I still was like, you know, oh my God, like, what if we're having sex and they noticed this and then they're like, ew, she's gross.

Like, I was just always waiting, like as if they were going to discover something and reject me. And it always just came back to this fear of rejection, which also like, you know, a super cool layer for me is that, you know, having a parent die young comes with abandonment issues.

So I think like those were like, Hey, you know, rejection, do you want to team up and terrorize her? Yes. You know, like coincided in this like I think I knew not to sleep with people, to be honest as a form of protection. I like knew I wasn't wired for flings. Like I just knew that I was like, was your particular band of issues.

Like that will be emotionally devastating, you know? And I would see my friends who were like really resilient or really, you know, were sort of like love them and leave them and stuff. And I would be like, don't fully buy it. I think we have similar issues. We're just working them out two different ways, you know?

And like, I was like, I'm going to go live in a monastery. And they were like, cool, I'm going to go out in these streets, you know? And it was just two different approaches of trying to work something out. And I think that like what I want everyone to know. And I want every woman, man, and non-binary friend to know is like, there's nothing you have to do to earn the right, to decide anything about your body, that you get to set all of the rules. And it took me a really long time to learn that. Like if a doctor makes you feel like shit, find a new doctor.

[00:46:11] Nina Endrst: Fuck em. Fuck em. No don't actually, don't actually fuck them. Leave them.

[00:46:16] Anna Toonk: But like if someone in your family keeps making you uncomfortable talking about your body, remind them it's not a topic for conversation. Like don't feel bad about these things because they seem silly.

They can seem innocuous. It can seem like you're being dramatic or you're asking for a lot. There's a million ways that I think are insidious that you can basically tell yourself that like you don't deserve to write the rules of your body, but guess what? You're the only fucking person who gets to, and anyone else who you may be share your body with can, you can like have a dialogue, but they don't get to make your rules either.

You know, like you can decide on some of those things together, like, but it took me so long that I felt like so much about how I felt about my body or what I was trying to figure out about my body. I was trying to work out externally and that only was making it worse and more confusing. So I would maybe seek role models in a positive way.

Like at this point I don't really super subscribed to, or participate in body positivity in a big way, just because like, my goal is body neutrality. In that, like, I don't have to like want to wear a bikini in order to like love my body. I don't even think you have to love your body. Like, I think you just have to accept you're in one and that it can be that you're on the same team. That's it. I think that's all you have to do. Or, you know, that's the place to start and see what happens from there.

[00:47:50] Nina Endrst: I agree. I think coming back to it is. In a way of just because our culture is obsessed with harm, right? I mean, they're just the, from television to the way we speak to each other, to just the, anything that we consume can be so harmful in terms of bodies.

Like, what you take in is, is your choice. You don't have to watch something that makes you feel bad. You don't have to, or unsafe or hurt or triggered. You don't have to say yes to things that don't feel good. I would highly recommend asking your body or listening to your body when somebody calls you, how do you feel?

Do you want to talk to that person? You don't have to. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. And if you really have to do it, then I would highly recommend seeking support around how to shield yourself or protect yourself in those circumstances where your body doesn't feel good. Yeah. Because it is it's you and your body till the end.

[00:48:55] Anna Toonk: Yeah like and I would say to that point into like what Nina is saying, not just like representation matters, but like, I think like-minded people matter. Like at this point, You know, I pretty much, I would say within my friend group, if I was like, I'm so sorry, but I gotta cancel. I'm exhausted. They would be like, of course let's reschedule.

You know, I think also people who honor the limits you set, or like, what you're asking for as well is really important. And like finding people, just like anything else in your life. Like most of us, aren't trying to be like best friends with people who like have you know, opposing political views or whatever. Like we've learned that some, some gaps can be bridged. Sorry. It's like if your goal is to be in relationship with your body, I think it can be helpful to find people who maybe that comes naturally to, but who are generous with their knowledge in order to see it like modeled.

But it not be a value thing. Like someone being more embodied doesn't make them better than you. It's just a skill they may be have. So I do think support is so important that if like somewhere along the lines, like things got a little skewed for you, finding people who can help you like come back to your center and like just step one, aim to be in your body. It's super important. I think it's really difficult to do alone.

So that could be, and that can come from a million different sources. Like it can come from someone on Instagram that you really admire. It can come from like, you know, like Nina's movement classes are incredible. Like, it could come from Soul or like a movement class, or, you know, like there's a million different ways you can do that.

But like, It's almost like go out looking for that support with maybe a little bit of a different lens, because it needs to be about your bod, not your brain. So it's like this way of like starting to forge that partnership. I was like, okay guys, like, we're all going to get committed to the same goal, but then it's like so important. And try to do it from a place of what, like what do I need, what is my body asking for versus should.

[00:51:08] Nina Endrst: Yes. I well, well said, Anna Banana. Thank you guys for bodying with us.

[00:51:16] Anna Toonk: Body, yadi, yadi, yadi, yadi. We'll be thinking of your bodies.

[00:51:21] Nina Endrst: No, we won't. That's so creepy. You don't know.

[00:51:23] Anna Toonk: It's true. I won't.

[00:51:25] Nina Endrst: We won't. We'll just be thinking about a sea of bodies.

[00:51:27] Anna Toonk: Okay. I'm gonna think about all your butts. Just, just kidding. I do think butts are cute and funny.

[00:51:32] Nina Endrst: Butts are cue and funny. Bye for now.

That's all for today's episode.

[00:51:43] Anna Toonk: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/howtobehuman.

[00:51:50] Nina Endrst: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

[00:51:58] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.