You know, I, I think we have allowed, uh, through complacency and, um, and really shock in a lot of cases, uh, the term D E I, uh, to be transformed into something ugly, uh, and to, and to be, uh, uh, essentially redefined as, as racism itself. Uh, you know, I never imagined living in a world where people would look poorly upon diversity, equity, and inclusion.

We'll discuss race and how it plays a factor in how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

A black executive perspective.

Welcome to a black executive perspective podcast, a safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, Especially Race in Corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit

and I'm your co host, Chris P. Reed.

And we're live at WNHU 88. 7 at the Richter dial, the University of New Haven podcast studio. Want to thank them for allowing the Black Executive Perspective podcast to record here. They got how much longer before they come back, Noel?

About a week or so, a week, a week and a half.

So guys, keep enjoying yourselves while you're going, right? Because you're going to be back here, and the professors ain't going to take it easy on you, alright? But go Chargers!

We'd also like to thank and shout out our partners at CodeM Magazine, where their mission is saving the black family by first saving the black man. That's CodeM Magazines, 2M, CodeM Magazine dot com.

Yeah, definitely check them out. Ian Haney Lopez and his book Dog Whistle Politics discuss how modern racism isn't just about perpetuating traditional stereotypes. He explores how racism is strategically used to achieve specific objectives. Lopez highlights how politicians exploit subconscious biases to garner backing for policies that oddly harm not only people of color. But also the white working class as well. He explains this type of coded language functions at dual levels. It provokes racial anxiety while providing speakers the cover to deny any racial intent. In this episode, Josh Moon, an investigative reporter and columnist for the Alabama Political Reporter joins us to discuss these issues, as well as to delve into his thought provoking article titled, We All Know What DEI Hire Really Means. Josh will unpack the controversial idea that the term DEI Hire is frequently used as a coded word for racial slurs. Within political and corporate environment.

So before we get too deep into it, let me give you a little bit about Josh Moon. Josh is an award winning columnist and investigator reporter working in Montgomery, a graduate of Auburn university, Montgomery. Uh, Josh has spent the last 15 years covering the state of Alabama in a wide variety of news from sports to education, to state government. So he's, he's primed for this, ready for this, and we're going to get it in. Josh, podcast.

Hey guys. Thank you. Cool.

So Josh, before we go too deep into the article and other things that you have going on, tell us a little bit about where you are currently and a little about your family.

Oh, yeah, sure. Uh, you know, actually I've, I've been around here for a little longer than 15 years. Um, uh, I mean, I, I've been covering stuff in this state now. Some of it was sports back when I first started. Um, and so, you know, at that time everybody was trying to get into newspapers and, uh, we didn't realize. Quite the sinking ship that they would, if they would turn out to be.

But,

uh, yeah. So I've been around for, for quite some time. Matter of fact, I was born in, uh, in Decatur, Alabama. Um, and, uh, so I grew up, uh, in north Alabama and around and, um, have, uh, lived in the state for, for pretty much my whole life. And, uh, we have, uh, uh, made a living out of, uh, Uh, out of kind of covering the politics and the craziness that happens here and uh, trying to do our part to make it a little bit better, I guess.

Awesome buddy. And look, you know, one of the things is you've been around for a long period of time, not just working for the, uh, the political, uh, uh, uh, paper newspaper, but also, I believe you also work for the other, uh, newspaper in Alabama as well. Is that correct?

I ha I, I worked for, uh, the Montgomery Advertiser. Montgomery Advertiser.

Thank you.

Yeah. I worked for Montgomery Advertiser for a number of years. Um, uh, that's where I started my, my news career. Uh, basically I started, I actually started there when I was still in college at, uh, at a UM and, um, and then left from there in, uh, 2016, I believe it was about eight years now. Um, and, uh, and went over to the Alabama Political Reporter, and I have been. Uh, really enjoyed that little venture. It's worked out really well, uh, for me and for, for them, I think. And so it's really, it gave me a lot of freedom and a lot of opportunity to do different things and, uh, you know, kind of take some ownership and make it to where, you know, somebody else wasn't making all the money. So, uh, it's always nice to be able to, you know, to feed the family and stuff, you know, and then, you know, that's

right, my friend, that's, that's the key. That's why we get up and do what we need to do on a daily basis. So listen, my friend, you know, obviously you've, and you, we're going to get into it. You wrote a lot of articles. Um, you've been doing this for a long period of time. Why did you want to come on the Black Executive Perspective podcast to talk about this topic?

Well, I think it's important. I think it's an important topic, uh, for, uh, you know, for the state of Alabama, for, for, and for all corporations really. Um, uh, because, you know, I, I think we have allowed, uh, through complacency and, um, and really shock in a lot of cases, uh, the term DEI, uh, to be transformed into something ugly, uh, and to, and to be, uh, essentially redefined as, you know, is racism itself. Uh, you know, I never imagined living in a world where people would look poorly upon diversity, equity, and inclusion, uh, you know, which is what DEI stands for. And, and I mean the, the idea that somebody would take equity and say, Oh, that's just wrong is, you know, it's a ludicrous idea, but that's what's happened. I mean that, you know, they, they have turned DEI into this, Um, into an, almost an example of unfair practices targeted towards one race. And of course it's the, you know, the phony aggrieved white guy, uh, out there that is, uh, you know, we've had it so tough. Uh, so, you know, uh, it really, uh, I mean, listen, if you put us on a level playing field, you know, I think it would probably, life would probably be a little tougher. So I think that's what they're screaming about.

Right, right. Well, listen, buddy. We're glad you're here. We definitely you already seem like you're chomping at the bit. We're definitely chomping at the bit to get into it. So you ready to talk about it? My brother.

Sure. I'm ready to go in. You're all

right. Let's talk about it.

So, so let me jump right into it. I mean, like you said, you've been baiting the hook here. The idea that is ironic when this was first brought to me by Tony. I didn't expect you. I didn't expect the fire that you put on paper and, uh, I'm like, man, I hope his address is not public. I hope his numbers not published because he is in the great in the great state of Alabama talking to all this rhetoric. But give us a little bit about. Why you came so Yosemite Sam guns blazing about this, you know, and why it kind of, uh, put the bee in your bonnet, so to speak.

Well, all right. So, I mean, first of all, I've lived here my whole life, so I'm as redneck as they are. So bring it over here. I got guns and stuff too, okay? Bring it. I got, I got a pickup truck. I can tow you out of here. Uh, so that's fine. Uh, but, uh, listen, I, honestly, I'll be honest. Thank you. I feel like I've written harsher things, uh, uh, before in the past. Um, and, uh, you know, and, and things much more, much more controversial, uh, than this. Uh, but I just, I think my biggest thing is, is it, it bothers me to no end. These people that still, place such importance on the color of someone's skin. Um, and, and, and tend to denigrate people based on that. Uh, what, you know, and, uh, that to me is what the problem where the problem stem and, uh, you know, and, and we still have it today and we still have these people who can't get past it. We still have these people who want to build their entire, you know, Persona around it who feel like whenever there's an effort to level the playing field I said before that it's somehow a personal affront to them and it's going to cost them something which you know I live in a state that's governed by a whole lot of people that I wouldn't trust to water the plants when I'm on vacation so you know, I Level in the playing field. I understand why they're threatened by that because there are going to be people who are better equipped to do this job than they are, who are more, um, who are smarter, who are better people overall. Um, and I think too often we have leaned into, uh, away from, uh, Uh, certain people because of the color of their skin and we've created an unfair playing field and then we've taken with DEI was just simply a means to kind of get us back somewhat closer to that playing, you know, to leveling it out, making it more equitable, uh, showing people, uh, that if you, you have diversity, if you have inclusion, uh, in things that you're going to find candidates That maybe don't look like you but who are as equipped or better equipped to do some of the jobs That we're we have right now in our state government and our corporate corporate america And all walks of life. I mean we've seen it. I mean, you know, I'll go back to my sports days You know, how how many times did we hear that? The black kid just can't be the quarterback. They just can't be the quarterback, you know, this can't be right and then all of a sudden But gave a few of those guys a chance to be the quarterback And we may not ever have another white dude win a MVP, you know, I mean, you know, really, I mean, seriously, there, it's not just that they're good, they're better, they're better than that. And for, and just, and it, what really makes me angry is to think about how many great players. that we've wasted getting to that. And it's the same in every walk of life. Apply that to every position. How many great people did we toss away because of racism and ignorance and just really stupidity? Because man, it is so stupid if you think about it. I mean, if you really just think about the reality of we're going to deny this person, or I don't like this person because of the color of their skin, or I think that person is stupid. Is dumber because of the color of their skin or less equipped to do this because of the color of their skin Or more apt to commit crime because of the color of their skin. That's the stupidest thing. I mean You know, I think I've told you before, you know, I tan up real nice in the summer And so in the summer am I am I dumber, you know, am I am I more you know what I mean? It's it's it's that's how ludicrous it is and has always been to me

So yes, it is though. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yes Do you truly believe? Um, that it is. And I'm asking from an ignorant perspective because I just don't know enough. Do you believe that they genuinely believe this stuff? Because even on a political dynamics now, there are things that are spewed or said or disseminated. And I'm saying it's, it's impossible that a rational person is believing this. I think that it's a convenient scapegoat or a convenient mirage To mask the true insecurities as opposed to me believing this, this woman or this, uh, uh, uh, Latino or this black person is just not smarter, not better, not more equipped. It's just easier for me to say that as a disguise, because I have insecurities of, like you said, fear of losing out or fear of. Even in the playing field. But I don't necessarily believe they're less. I just believe I don't want to lose mine. Is that valid or is that does that make sense?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It makes sense. I think, well, so I think there's a mix of people. Um, you know, I think, I think first of all, uh, to get to the person that you're talking about, somebody that's saying it for their own personal advantage. Um, I think there are fewer of those simply because I believe that somebody that says those things and is doing it for that way has to be a little smarter. Uh, than the average, uh, you know, out there. And so I don't think there's a lot of people that look at it that way. I do believe there are people, um, in government and, uh, in leadership positions who, who use these things as wedges to fool the idiots. Uh, and they're doing it on purpose. Okay. Yeah, exactly. So they're doing Purpose to divide people and say There's a great cartoon Of I believe it's of rupert murdoch sitting at a table Uh, and rupert murdoch has a stack of money in front of him. Uh, and then there is another white older guy Uh, that's sitting there at the table and he has just a small amount of money. And then there is a minority person sitting on the other side of the table and Rupert Murdoch is saying to the, to the white guy, Watch out for it. He's trying to take your money. And so that's what this, what this is about. I mean, that's what this is about to, to a certain degree in corporate America and government in a lot of places, it's these people that are, that have it and they don't want to lose it. You know, they don't want to give it up. They don't want to let it go. And, and this is a means to an end for them. But. And you also need those compliant people to buy into the rhetoric Um, and so that I think there are a lot of people out there who see DEI as this racist thing Uh, because so many people have pushed it from the top to say. Oh, no, look They're they're trying to take your you know, the oh listen if you get on a plane and the pilot is black He's probably inferior, you know It's stupidity, you know, I mean it really is

but

but they they buy it partly because You It's what they want to believe, uh, because they want to believe in themselves. They want to believe that they are, they're working hard. They want to believe that, you know, they deserve these things and they're not, they're not doing anything to, you know, to deny a black person a job or a Hispanic person a job or anything like that. But so why are they being denied? You know? And, and so I think it's an easy kind of scapegoat that is used to divide. And there are just a lot of people who believe it.

Let's do you know, buddy. Number one. Thank you for that is funny because we we chatted about that last week in our last episode, right? And you I don't know if he's listening or we should have had you come in, right? Because you're right on point where we are and pretty much everything that you said. Here's the thing. I just want to because you wrote an article and um, and I just want to paint a picture here. Um, I was in Martha's Vineyard on the beach with my family. Okay. And I read your article. Okay. And, and it's funny, I emailed you from the beach. Okay. And said, Josh, I just read your article and I would love to set up a call with you. You know, I'd love to see if you, you know, blah, blah, blah. And here you are. So that's how this article struck me. So I want to read, um, I want to read a couple of excerpts. I want to read one area first and I want to get your thoughts on it. You spoke a little bit about it, but your article is, we all know what DEI hire really mean. And you kick it off like this, and I quote, DEI Hire means the N word. Let's stop beating around the bush. Let's stop talking in riddles. Let's stop being cowards. When you proclaim that so and so is a DEI Hire, you're basically using a racial slur. You're saying, without really saying, that this person is somehow lesser because of their skin color, But that their skin color along with the noble ambition of diversity, equity, and inclusion was responsible for them landing the job, role, or attention. Don't run from it. Don't deny it. We all know it's true. So you came out and you said earlier, you wrote some, some stronger articles. All right. But you came out guns blazing on this right. I'm right off the first sentence. D. E. I. Hire means the n word. So talk a little bit about how did you come up with that? What made you come that way? When something, to be fair, and we talked about dog whistles, and this is what DEI, Hire has turned into a dog whistle, just like woke, woke turned into a dog whistle, right? So I'd love to hear your thoughts a little bit more about that.

Yeah. Well, you know, and, and as I told you, uh, you, you emailed from the beach and I responded from the beach. That's right. Yeah. We were both working very hard that day, um, uh, which is fine, you know, which is fine. Uh, but no, you know, I, I, I, I just, all right. So I'm, as you can probably tell from the accent, I'm in the Southern state. Okay. Um, and, uh, and so I hear a lot of this, um, Closeted racism. Okay. Um, you know, we, we don't, we don't have to be fair. We don't have a lot of the outward racism of the past. You know, I know sometimes people hear stories about the South and they think about certain things in Alabama, especially, you know, about how things are and how life is here, especially for minority folks and stuff. And, um, you know, so, but, uh, To be fair to the progress that has been made, we don't have a lot of that outward racism. That doesn't mean there's no racism. I'm not getting, don't get me wrong. It's just that, you know, sometime back, most of our society here was shamed into doing away with the separate water fountains. Okay. Um, and so we, we, we now hide it and we hide it in certain ways in which the, the, the, Words like DEI hire or you're at woke is another great example of that or you know Just certain things that are done that you know, wink and a nod you know, we had for example, I wrote a column today about a Superintendent of a school system here in this state who was run out of his job because he did too good of a job Educating the Hispanic population in his school system and And as he did so he neglected the white folks that were there that were paying his salary um, you know, apparently the hispanic folks not don't pay any taxes or anything, but uh, regardless but so That's what It, it, it bothers me. And this is what I often tell people is you're a coward, you know, if you want to say it, say it, don't, don't run around from it. Don't, you know, say it, say what you mean, stop beating around the bush and be a man enough to come out or woman enough to come out and say what you mean. All right. And this is what they mean. This is what, when they call Kamala Harris, a DEI hire in a race against that other person, um, We know what you're saying, you're, you're trying to denigrate her based upon the color of her skin and nothing more because when you stack up the resumes, there's no comparison. There's zero comparison between the two of which one is more apt, more capable to do that job. All right, there's no comparison whatsoever. And that's even before you get into the coup stuff. Okay. But, uh, uh, you know, but yeah, I mean, so that's where that can, I get so tired of it. And sometimes, sometimes when I don't, do either one of you write, uh, write columns or opinion pieces or even Facebook posts. No, no, no. You, you ruined it from me. But your article, so I dunno. Anybody else, it'll never have

You set the damn bar. Sorry.

I dunno. Anybody else's experience, but sometimes when I sit down to write, I sit down to write it. Mm-Hmm. because I ain't really pissed. All right. I've, I've something that's pissed me off and, and I, and so it flows through. Sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes I just write from, you know. Uh, and, and I have something that I want to say and I have always found it serves me best to, as one person, uh, I used to cover, uh, HBCU, uh, here in Alabama and a guy who told me like my stuff one time, Tom said that my, my greatest quality as a writer is the fact that I put it down there where the goats can get it.

I do have a question for you. So if you look at simple economics, the reason why something costs is cost what it costs or is as high as it is is because somebody is willing to pay that price. Right? Right. Real simple. Real simple. When you were, Calling out folks. Are you calling out the consumer? Are you calling out the purveyor of these ideas? Because I couldn't tell who was getting these strays that you were shooting. Like, are you talking about the politicians and the leaders that are like you said, intelligently, uh, in a concerted effort, spewing this foolishness, or are you shaming the people who are absorbing this and allowing for the price to be as high because they're willing to pay that price?

Yes.

Okay. Okay. Everybody can get it. Okay. Cool. Yeah. I mean, I really,

if, if you are a part of this, then that's who I'm talking to, you know, I mean, I want you to be smarter at the bottom end, uh, and stop electing fools that, that try this stuff and, and stop fooling you into, uh, you know, into, into doing this stuff and hating your neighbor, uh, because of the color of your skin, even though, even, you know, as I've also written a bunch of times, you know, I have as a working person, I have far more in common with the working black man, the working Hispanic man, the working woman, the working mom. I have far more in common with them than I do the white guy that's running things. All right.

We

got a whole lot. Our lives are way more similar. Our interests are way more similar. So why are you letting that dude dictate the way you think?

Buddy. So, and, and, and. You know, that's the question. That's where we struggle, right? Because you're a hundred percent right. And I don't understand, you know, where you have working blacks and working whites and working Hispanics and working Asians. We all want the same thing. Yes. Okay? And But their strategy, not the people, but the politicians and leader strategy is to divide and conquer. Okay. And we're stupid enough where we don't come together. And really see through these things because if we come together and do exactly and think exactly what you just got been saying They wouldn't be in power Okay, and so at the end of day, I'm just wondering, you know Why can't we just see through this because I struggle I'm gonna be totally honest with you You talked about how you get, you know mad and you write I get mad as well because when people can't see through something to me that's just so much so common sense Seeing a person that's actually using these people using people to get power Lying to them saying that he has their best interests at heart When he really doesn't. Okay. He really cared, but he'll say anything to get people to vote for him. Okay. And, and you wrote, hold on, let me just put this. Cause I got to read this. Cause you wrote some stuff in here, which I was dying laughing. Right. And you said, uh, uh, uh, Oh, here it is. You said Harris is an unqualified. This is what you wrote. So let's lay this out. Harris is unqualified DEI hire. Donald Trump is a deserving qualified presidential candidate. Harris, an attorney who worked for the District Attorney of San Francisco, the California Attorney General, a U. S. Senator, and the Vice President of the United States is a DEI hire. But the guy that was born on third base blew through hundreds of millions of dollars of his family's money, declared bankruptcy multiple times, has been rightfully convicted of 34 felonies, failed at almost every business venture in which he was the majority owner, and whose sole claim of success in the venture that bailed him out was a reality TV show in which he hired and fired people to run a fake business, is the qualified candidate candidate. And you say, man, stop it. End quote. So I mean, how did we get here? Because that it doesn't add up. And how does it, you know, and let's be fair, though, there's black people that support trump as well. Let's be fair. Okay. How doesn't people see through this? And they want to label her. As a DEI hire they labeled the mayor of baltimore because the bridge was the bridge. I mean the uh, The ship hit the bridge as the DEI mayor these same dog whistles How come people can't see through these things in your opinion?

Uh, first of all, I will say in donald trump's defense he is a Excellent personal marketer. Okay, he has done it And he is so good. I mean you you have got to You Let go of, of all, uh, I mean, just you, you have, you've got to let go of all personal shame. Uh, to be, to do what he does and, and he does it. I mean, he'll, he'll lie straight to you and, and, and clearly believe it and know that he's lying while he's doing it and, and know that, you know, that he's lying while he's doing it. Okay. And he'll still do it and he'll do it with such confidence. I think that it attracts a lot of people when he. When he says the thing that he does because he's very good at giving people an excuse not to hate him. And he's very good at saying things that touch a nerve with a certain segment of the population. Uh, and uh, particularly folks who are very patriotic, uh, you know, and, and have a, uh, a less educated, uh, opinion. View of the world and of the country and of the inner workings of government and, and global economics. Okay. And so I think those things play very well into his favor. And if you look at his base of people. Those are pretty much his base of people, you know, that's that's his base of support are those people and so I think that Is who he appealed to along with and part of the appeal has been this Um, we're gonna do we're gonna take this your country back through You know, and we're going to give it back to you because this, this has been stolen from you, from the, you know, from what you, you know, it's not like what it used to be in the fifties, you know, which I mean, doesn't necessarily explain the, the support of the black folks, but I mean, you know, um, but it does explain a lot of the other support that he has out there. Uh, and I think it was made possible. Um, obviously nothing, uh, there's no derogatory mention for, for Obama there, uh, but you know, the fact that we had the nation's first black president, he was very successful. A lot of people really gravitated towards him. A lot of people voted for him, um, and you know, and they did so with such glee, but Obama pushed us too far. They pushed us too far. I mean, because listen, he just refused to stop being black. Okay. I mean, and, uh, and, and you know, he just maintained being black, his whole presidency, and really he's still doing it today. And, uh, I mean, and so. Haven't we given enough at this point racism is dead. We can do whatever we want and and trump came in pushing this message of nationalism of uh, you know of We're going to be tough again. We're going to stop this We're going to return to the old ways of doing stuff and it resonated with a certain group of people And I mean you add in a in a dash of russian interference and there you are

I think, I think the silliest part is we created a, he really incited a level of xenophobia in a country full of immigrants. Um, and that was ironic as hell, right?

But those are immigrants like them, not immigrants like us, they're not like us, different classes

of immigrants, right? His wife is an immigrant. You came here the right way. The right way. Exactly.

So this concept of, of, I don't know openly and candidly what a DEI job is or what they would qualify as an acceptable or accepted DEI job, because we talk about black jobs, he said, and then DEI hires is what's going around now in this concept. And basically, if you just do deductive reasoning, If you're not a straight, white, Christian male, you're a DEI hire.

Pretty much, yeah.

Because if you're a woman, you're If you're a latino, if you're black, if you're a lgbtq plus, you know, a plus any of these things, you become in the qualification of a DEI hire. So therefore, the only true hires. And I'm just trying to get some clarification here. It appears as if, if you think about it as is being depicted, the only real deserving employed people are black or white, male, Christian, heterosexual men.

Yes. Yes. That's true. That's true. I did not want

you to say yes

there. Yeah. And listen, this is not new. This is not new. I mean, this, this went on with affirmative action. Yeah. You know, exactly,

exactly.

You know, how many times did you hear that? When, whenever, whenever there was some part, whenever there was a woman or minority. Uh, that did anything on a job that you disagreed with, uh, or that doesn't, that didn't necessarily know the job as well as you felt they should know. How many times did you hear a person say to, about, well, that's an affirmative action. Probably, you know, I mean it was that this was always this thing is that that person you keep and that's Oh, this is oh i've had so many, uh, you know that when we talk about white privilege Oh, you should have read some of my columns about white privilege if you're cool Yeah, got some of those got some of those emails about those Uh when I tried to point out examples of this that you know, and and I would say to people You know was was your life easy? Did you have it easy? And of course, inevitably, everybody who's, you know, a certain age, No! What, are you kidding me? No, I worked hard for everything I got. I was like, that's right. And, did anybody try to keep you from going to the school that you went to? Did they try to stop you from buying the house in the neighborhood in which you bought it? Did anybody, did they ever kick you off of a bus? Or, or not stop for you in a cab? Did they ever, did you ever not get an interview because of the sound of your name? Did any of that stuff happen to you? Well, imagine how tough your life would be if some of that, I don't know how y'all feel about custody, but sometimes I get rid Yeah. Uh, so yeah. But some of the stuff I imagine beat you, be you. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know what I mean? And, and, and so I think that's where, um, this, this kind of comes from is that this, they've, they've done an excellent job of painting any, any effort to level the playing field as an attack on white people.

Right. Zero sum game basically, right? We can't, um, we can't share, right? They're, they're not coming. We're not, we can't share with others. If we do that, they're going to take what you have. Okay. And that's the game. Let me ask you this. You're in Alabama, you, um, and you just said it, I read your article. You just said I wrote, I wrote it. Many articles that was stronger than this one. You just talked about white privilege. Tell us some of the response that you're getting based on what you're writing. And, and I hate to use the word red state because this is the United States, right? But in a very conservative area, I would imagine. Tell us to give us a little feedback of what people are saying to you is if people applaud or they're like, Oh my God, I'm glad Josh, thank you for doing this. Or, you know, do you have, you know, 24 hour body guards? I mean, just let us know what's going on.

Also in this regard, I would be happy to hear the best justification you've received because these people can pick up, all people can be very creative. But what I've realized is the most. Staunch bigots are extremely creative in their belief system and how they justify their activities and actions.

Yeah, no, uh, I will say you're probably surprised because there are a lot of people here who think like me. Um, there, there are a lot more than people realize. And even, even at, uh, the worst, you know, the, even when we, we go to the polls and you can see it on paper, uh, you know, what, what, what Trump's going to get, what, versus, you know, the, the democratic candidate opposing them, uh, it's going to be a 60, 40 split, you know, and so, I mean, listen, that's a big margin in the political world. That's a 20 point margin, but in, in life, you know, in real life, you know, you, you don't 60, 40. You're getting there, you know, and I think even among the 60 Uh, there's a there's a solid percentage of those folks who are far more reasonable and understanding and educated and You know, they may vote for trump because they like trump's tax policies or something along those lines Uh, they like the republican way of doing things you know, conservative economic standpoint. They don't necessarily buy it. It's a big, right now. It's a big problem around here, is the IVF stuff and, uh, and, and some of the, you know, the the Roe fallout. Uh, in suburbs, you know, with, with, with suburban women, it's, it's a huge problem. Pretty big problem, uh, for the, for the, uh, Republican party in the state. But yeah, so, so it's not as bad. And a lot of the responses I receive are, are from people who say, listen, you know, we think the same way, or I don't necessarily agree, uh, with everything, but I do agree with X, Y, and Z. And I do think that this, or they'll come back and they'll, they'll have a very reasoned thing and say, listen, isn't it time that we figure out a better way. to do this than through DEI or through Affirmative Action. Isn't there a better way that we can, we can judge people, uh, more appropriately, regardless of skin color and, and, and level the playing field like you're talking about, which, you know, if you can come up with it, I'm all for it. I just, you know, I don't know that the solution exists. Um, but, uh, you know, I also get the crazies, you know, and, and, um, I, I, I've had people, but you know, I've, I've been on so many things now I've been on, you know, and around for so long that I think people kind of realize that I'm, I may be crazier than they are. Um, and so they, they, they, they don't, you know, they're like, I don't know, man, he, he seemed like he might do something to you. Uh, but, um, and so, You know, at least I'm going to punch back, you know, and it's, so it's not, um, I think that kind of tempers the, the responses I get. Sometimes I get some crazies, I get some people that, that, uh, you know, are just, uh, out of their minds. And, um, you know, it was just like, I got one today to the, uh, column I wrote about the, uh, The superintendent that got ran out and, uh, and it's the guy wanted to remind me that I worked for a, in a failed industry that no one trusts anymore. And, uh, this is the reason why, because that person got run because he turned his back on his true constituency and the people who were paying his salary. And, uh, he forgot who hired him, um, and, you know, uh, and that type of thing. And so, yeah, I, I get, I get those a lot, but it is. It, and I'll post it on Facebook. And, uh, Facebook is, Facebook is better than, than the alternatives out there. The Twitter, uh, world, the Twitter world is insanity. And, but, you know, 90% of those people are fake, you know, so that helps, uh, you know, and, uh, so I, I don't even really mess with that anymore. But, um, it's, it's a, uh, it's a weird, it's a weird kind of mix of, of things and I, I think that it's, um. You know, I, I'll say that. I know when I have said something or written something that they cannot. Argue because they are extra mad and they are extra hateful. So, uh, that always tells whenever one comes in, my wife said, I just don't know how you put up with that. And I was like, well, because I know when somebody sends me something like this, that I have gotten so far under their skin because what I've said is true, that they can't stand it any longer. Uh, and that's how

it in, in, in Alabama specifically, because that's obviously where you're born and raised and things of that nature. Um, What do you say if, if somebody says that you, the people of Alabama don't have a desire to be progressive, that they don't have a desire to evolve, that they want to be stuck in a suspended animation when they felt like things were greater, easier or more favorable to them. Do you see that as part of the dynamic or this is a chance for you to tell the world, you know, on this platform, if that's a misnomer? Is it really not that way?

You know, I, no, I mean, it's that way. I mean, the, the majority of the people are, you know, they're, they're stuck in this and they don't want to be progressive. They don't, they want things to be like they were. They liked their little small towns. They liked their small town life. They liked the way the things were running. They don't want anybody to disrupt that or tell them that they're wrong. Um, I will say that sometimes I think, um, their desire to, to be that way gets. Misconstrued as less progressive or, uh, or less caring and sometimes it's not a matter of, you know, we don't want to, we don't, we won't, we like our town the way we like our town. Uh, but they're not saying, Hey, we like our town and we don't want any of those folks in the town. They're just saying, we like it We like it small. We like it, you know, lazy and easy going and laid back kind of a town and we don't want the, we don't want the big industry. We don't want the big, you know, the box stores. We like the mom and pops in the downtown areas and that kind of thing. Um, but, you know, and in terms of. Of progression of schools, you know, I I for I give you a really good example a couple years back We we had some charter schools You know that everybody everybody was a charter school craze and now private school funding and all this kind of stuff has come through That this state as well But we had a little small town a very conservative small town that just fought like hell against a Charter school that was coming in there from this folks that were out of they were running it from out of state It was gonna suck up resources from their public schools. They did not like that Their public schools were probably 50 50 black white They did not have any private schools in the state in the in the county really now that was a big problem for a couple Of more wealthy people that were trying to get this charter school in And that's what they wanted it for they wanted to essentially turn it into an effect Oh private school They could send their white kids to and get them out of those dangerous schools. Now, there was no evidence that those schools were dangerous. There's no evidence those schools were not underperforming. As a matter of fact, there were some of the better performing schools in the state. Uh, but they still weren't happy for some reason. Couldn't really put our finger on it. Uh, but you know, it, and they, those folks in that town, Fought against that and they killed it. They they they absolutely killed that charter school and stopped it from coming um, and and saved their public schools and their public school teaching positions that went along with it and and so I think those sorts of things You know still happen and and you know, they're but they're on the flip side. There are the folks like the Ones I talked about who ran the superintendent out, you know, right because he was too good at educating the hispanic kids and um, You know Those things happen here. Um, and, and we, we do resist progress and we do look at progressivism as some sort of a bad word, uh, you know, and, and I've never, never really understood that. And as I tell people all the time, yeah, all the things that you're doing that are good for the state, somebody suggested a progressive suggested you do that 15 years ago. And, and you fought it and, but now here we are and, and it's all worked out. Okay. And I, and so, yeah, I mean, there, there's going to be that fight against it. And that's just the way that a lot of people are here.

Josh, let me ask you this, you know, from a corporate. standpoint, right? You know, the term DEI hire, obviously we've been talking about it. Your article was about, it wasn't about DEI hire, uh, the term overall, but you were talking specifically about Kamala Harris as being a DEI, uh, uh, uh, vice president. In terms of corporate jobs or jobs in the state of Alabama, are there challenges of pushback? in terms of the policies when it comes to DEI, um, in those companies? And if so, what, what's some of the pushback? And then my, my follow up question to that, people of color, In the state, Hispanics, blacks, Asians, what, what are they doing? How do they, are they just sitting back and like, you know, it's 60, 40 and nothing we can do, or, or are they pushing back in terms of trying to, it might be tough, but trying to get a change and trying to change minds and hearts.

Uh, yeah, you know, I would say, um, on the whole, uh, that most of the businesses and especially the major businesses in this state recognize the value of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think many of them, uh, long before the state. Adopted those practices they did as well. And you know, I've written some stories about regions bank who's one of the bigger banks in this state and uh, blue cross blue shield of alabama and and the uh, the dei programs and Inclusion programs that they have thought about implementing and they were they were doing that Way before way before so yeah way before and so I think I think that those businesses, and matter of fact, just last weekend, uh, the business council of Alabama, which is a kind of a conglomerate of Alabama's bigger businesses here, uh, talked about how they were going to, uh, put together a, uh, a campaign, uh, program where they were going to recruit candidates, they were going to look for, uh, for better candidates that were more business friendly, and that they were going to start, basically what they were saying without saying is, we're going to start focusing on some of these radicals that are, uh, looking at the, the, participating in these culture wars, um, and doing some of this nonsense, like getting rid of DEI, and they're instead. We're going to recruit candidates. We'll oppose those people. And so I think they understand that we've probably moved way too far to the right here. Uh, because at a point, I mean, and this is what I've argued with a lot of business people over the years is at a point, man, you're hurting yourself. I mean, they're, they're, This, this sort of hiring and stuff introduces new ideas, brings in new markets, bring, you know, opens you up to a whole slew of, of consumers that you would never have before. And also to employees, to great employees that would come in and transform your business and help you out in ways you never imagined. And instead you're attacking this, uh, you're, or you're, you're being part of a group of people that are, uh, uh, attacking this and allowing them to run the state and do crazy things. And you know, this is not to your best interest. And so I think maybe finally we've, we reached the tipping point and they kind of said, okay, we've got to, we've got to do something. Um, and so hopefully that will, will help push back on some of this and bring us back closer, at least closer to the center. Um, and, and, and do some things, but yeah, I, you know, I don't know. Um, You know, I, I think that they, there, there, it's going to be an uphill battle. Uh, but you know, and, and, but as far as the, uh, as the minority communities, the various minority communities and employees here, you know, there, there have been some efforts. Uh, the, one of the biggest things we've had recently is the union push, uh, here, and we came really close, you know, Alabama. Um, has has transformed itself into a big auto manufacturing, uh, state and, uh, we have had, you know, we've come pretty close to, to unionizing the first auto plant here, the Mercedes plant in Tuscaloosa. And I think eventually that's going to happen. Uh, but more so than anything, we saw the results of those and how those companies transform their, their practices on pay and hiring and everything else. Uh, to kind of keep up with what was happening at the unionized auto, uh, manufacturers around the country. And, and so I think those things along with, you know, trying to organize better, hopefully they can work with the business council and some of those major businesses now, if they're going to start putting in that effort and maybe they can, uh, maybe we can, we can push it forward and hopefully get some progressive action taking place.

Got it. When you look at the term D. E. I. Hire and it being, uh, perceived as synonymous with under qualified or unqualified, what do you surmises the solution to that? Beyond being able to give what you did was you laid out a resume. For Kamala Harris, right? And basically you just laid out the cards. Boom, boom, boom. But, but there's a famous quote that says for those who believe no explanation is required. And for those who do not, no explanation will do. And the reality of it is you could have so many qualifications that show empirically that you're qualified. But if someone has a belief that because of your tone, your skin tone, or because of your, uh, gender, Or whatever the case may be, that absolves all of this paperwork, all of these great schools that you've attended, all these certifications, all these references, all that, is there a solution beyond the, the vigor of someone's bias? Or is it a situation where we just have to kind of just keep fighting the good fight and hope for the best? Like, what is your thought on that as far as a potential solution forward?

Well, it's, it's tough to compete with idiots. Um, you know, um,

they got a lot of energy. Yeah, they got a lot of energy. It's like a two year old, man.

They're seldom right, but never in doubt. Okay. Um, and, and so, you know, it's, um, uh, you, so you got to run into those people, but, you know, I think the only thing that's going to solve that is time. And effort and, and the programs just like we're talking about the, the diversity equity inclusion, because not only do those things benefit businesses and open up, you know, consumer markets and things like that, they also teach the idiots out there that there, these, these places are, you know, that these folks are good in those jobs that they're, you know, I mean, how many people now show up to an Alabama football game and cheer on the black quarterback? Yeah. You know, uh, you know what I mean? Right. So where before that was, you know, uh, no, no, no, no. Uh, you know, and so, uh, that, that, that's what I'm saying, you know, but those, those examples of the successes and of the, you know, and, and people realizing, oh, Hey, you know, those might just be people too. Um, I think a lot of those ignorant ideas get pushed down when you see the example right in front of your face.

Buddy, final thoughts, my friend. What do you want to leave? Number one, you've been awesome. Really? I mean, we could talk to you for the next five days straight, right? Final thoughts, my brother. What do you want to leave our audience?

The only thing I want to say is it's I know the thoughts of Alabama. Okay. And so not all of us think this way. I know when you, I know when you heard this accent, you deducted 1, 500. I know you did. That's fine. It's okay. It's okay. I get it. We've earned that. Okay. We've earned that from years of trying. I get you. But there are people who are trying, there are good people everywhere. Um, and, and there are good people who want other good people to get the opportunities that they deserve. And I think that's the way so many people should look at it is. You and the other the last the only thing if you don't remember anything else, you know is is this idea of Who you have something in common with. Okay. And that's, you have far more in common with the people who live on your street and in your neighborhoods. All right, whether they be black, Hispanic, white, Asian, Asian American. Whatever, you have far more in common with those people and those people want almost exactly the thing, same things you want. They want a, they want a decent job to pay the bills, to sleep easy at night, to send their kids to a decent school, to hope those kids grow up and are successful and make them proud. They will, all people want those same things for the most part. 9 percent of people want those exact same thing. All right. And you have your interest in the things that you share. Are with those people and not with the idiots that are trying to divide you.

It's interesting that you say that because obviously reading your article, we want the same thing you want. States like, you know, Tony's on the East coast. I'm in Texas and we want the same thing. So the world is actually a lot smaller than just your neighborhood. You know, if you really give yourself a chance to absorb that. So my question to you is, Obviously, you're going to keep writing passionately and we're going to end up having you back for something else you say. Man, it's just, it's just, that's the nature of things, right? But what can a Black Executive Perspective podcast do to help you?

Oh, listen, if, uh, if, if you guys send some folks my way, we have our own podcast. I host a co host a podcast, I should say, uh, with, with David Person, uh, who is a black journalist here in the state of Alabama. We host a podcast called Alabama politics this week. And we bring on folks from, uh, I would say from a, a more progressive. perspective of things and, and give those folks an opportunity. It's Alabama politics this week is wherever you find podcasts. If you'd like to listen, uh, we have Doug Jones and Terry Sewell and a lot of folks on from the state and some names you might recognize, um, and also Alabama policy, Alabama political reporter, Alabama political reporter. If you go there and look at our stuff, you know, give us a few clicks. We never hurts, you know, buddy,

that's an easy, easy thing for us to do. So we'll definitely connect after because we can definitely, you know, send you some guests who would probably love to come on your show and chat. So, you know, so that's automatic. That's easy to do, right? And then back to Chris's earlier statement, you know, we would love for you to come back on sometime in the future. You know, obviously we're in a political year. So we love to come back on and have you talk about certain things. We got less than 90 days of things playing themselves out. So we can imagine there's going to be some type of roller coaster. There's going to be some things that we can like for real thing that happened. So we would always be open to having your perspective, my friend.

Well, I appreciate it. I've had a really enjoyable time and I hope y'all, yeah, we do get to do this again sometime. All right, well, one thing I'll say, the one thing I'll

say to leave, Tony, is you remind me of a famous quote that said, If you make the world idiot proof, it will invariably create a greater idiot. LAUGHTER That's pretty good, that's pretty good. That's very true, very true. So true, so true.

But Josh, stay right here buddy, because you are going to help us with our call to action. So I think it's now time for Tony's tidbit. All right. Now it's time for Tony's tidbit. And the tidbit always is about what we talked about. So the tidbit today is reject code words that disguise bias, embrace terms that foster unity and respect. And that's what Josh was just closing up on talking about the thing, we all want the same things. The people in your neighborhood, you're closer than them to anybody else and they all deserve the same thing. So let's get rid of the code words. Let's reject the bias. And let's let's let's run to the things that foster unity and respect

and then also I want to Give another reminder to tune in to our weekly segment need to know with nasingha Don't miss this week's need to know segment with dr Nasingha burton a black executive perspective podcast has dr burton diving into timely and poignant crucial topics That shape our community and our world tune in and gain those unique insights and deeper your understanding of issues that matter you do not You Want to miss her. She is. She's almost as incendiary as our guest Josh. Yeah,

absolutely. Absolutely. So I hope you enjoy today's episode. We all know what DEI hire really means with our guests. Josh Moon, so I think it's now time

for our call to action. Remember to incorporate less L. E. S. S. And that's learned, empathize, share and stop. And so the first L or the L is to educate yourself on racial and cultural nuances. Make sure you stay up on top of these things and don't just be a limbing like Josh was saying, following whatever somebody else is saying that doesn't even live where you live or think like you think.

Exactly. And then after you learn, now E stands for Empathy. Since you've learned now about new, uh, uh, people and new nuances, now you should be able to empathize with your fellow human being.

And share. Share is the first S, right? Uh, share your insights to enlighten others. Because if your crazy friends can share their insights on Facebook, then shouldn't you share smart things with them?

And the final S is stop we want to stop discrimination in its path So when you're at the Thanksgiving table and grandma says something inappropriate you say grandma, we don't believe in that We don't say that and you stop it right in this path. So if everybody incorporates less L E S S will build a fairer, more understanding world and we'll be able to see the change that we want to see because less will become more.

So we'll remind you to tune in for our next episodes and also go to the website and sign up for our newsletter. Please leave us a review and subscribe wherever you're listening to the podcast. This will help us scale and meet you where you are and talk about the topics that are important to you.

And you can follow a black executive perspective podcast on all our socials, LinkedIn X, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook at a black exec. For our fabulous guests, our brother from another mother. It's me, Josh moon, the best co host with the most Chris P. Reed. We got Noele Miller behind the glass. Who's making all this happen. I'm Tony tidbit. We talked about it. We love you. And we're out

a black executive perspective.