Speaker: 00:00:00

And my hope

is that by listening to this podcast,

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your mind has been stretched

just a little bit

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so that you can be more aware

of the possibilities that are out there,

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the possibilities of serving Christ,

the possibilities of what is happening

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in the world today

that wants to align itself

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in the world today

that wants to align itself

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with, kingdom values, something

that has meant so much to us here,

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and how all these different parts

can be connected, because in the end,

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we're going to be in heaven together,

Lord willing.

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And I think that starting the process

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of getting to know each other and helping

each other's needs, serving each other,

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would be best to do here on Earth.

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Welcome to the podcast Yuriy.

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So we did a previous episode

with you and encourage people to maybe

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check that out first.

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It's some of the story

of how you were born in the Soviet Union,

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in what's now Ukraine.

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And coming here to America,

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then back to Ukraine and getting connected

with the Anabaptists and so forth.

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So there's a whole chunk of the story

there.

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We're not going to touch that

at this time.

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I'm going to take a different angle.

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And that is we're coming up on the 500th

anniversary

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of Anabaptism

getting started to begin with.

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It started in Europe,

and there's been a lot of work

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historically on on that

from an academic perspective.

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But I want to hear more from your personal

experience of the Anabaptists in Europe.

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And really that kind of this

global community of the Anabaptists,

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it's easy to think of it

as, as purely a North American phenomenon.

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And that's not really the case.

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So, yeah, let's just jump right into that.

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And first point being,

can you give us a bit of a broad picture

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of how the Anabaptists were pushed

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east across Europe and then beyond,

even into parts of Asia and so forth?

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And how that fits in with the story

and brings us up to today.

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Yeah.

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Reagan, that's a fascinating subject

and one that I'm very passionate about.

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But I want to give you some context.

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First is that this is based on

my limited experience, and I apologize

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in advance if I misrepresent some facts

or other things.

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But yeah, I was in my mid 20s

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before I realized the fact

that not all Mennonites or Anabaptists

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immigrated to North America

after being persecuted in Europe.

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In 2012, I got to know,

two Russian German brothers,

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Rudy and Alex, who got an interest

in American Anabaptism and came over

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to stay in our part of Pennsylvania,

for the space of several years.

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And, of course, with my grandfather

spending some time in two

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different German concentration camps,

I was really interested in Germany.

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And how that, that society function.

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And and now, as I was getting more aware

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of the historical Christian context,

that made me even more interested.

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So I interviewed these two brothers

a lot and tried to learn

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as much as as I could from them.

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And that was actually the beginning of my,

studies of the German language as well.

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So, throughout

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this process, 2012,

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I've been having these conversations and,

one of the brothers

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said, hey, why not take a singing group

and come minister

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in some of the churches over there?

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I'll arrange some of the connections.

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And I was like,

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this is the opportunity I've been waiting

for, being involved in music like I am.

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And so in 2014, the right

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combination of interest

and opportunity came together,

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and I went on a trip to visit German

Anabaptist churches there in Germany.

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I went with a, older

brother named Brother Mose

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Stoltzfus,

who some listening, may be familiar with.

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He has since passed away.

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Since that time.

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It was a group of,

I don't know, maybe around 12 of us,

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young men and young ladies,

you know, enough to get something

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like, 2 per part,

when we're, when we're singing there

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and we arrived there, people

didn't really know what to make of us.

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They were a little bit,

not sure what to do with this group

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of Americans that are, you know, dressed,

well they're dressed conservative.

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So, you know, check that.

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But what do they believe?

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Who are they? Where are they from?

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What's their history?

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And, the ice broke rather quickly.

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And we were very warmly

welcomed into those settings.

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And basically what we did was

we would go and sing and,

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at an evening service

or a Sunday morning,

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we'd sing and then, Brother Mose who was

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with us, was fluent in German.

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And he had a degree

of command of the language

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so he could actually preach in German.

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It was very simple,

but it was, legible, understandable.

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And people resonated

with, with the message

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that that he brought and.

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A turning point on the subject,

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of the European Anabaptists, for me

was when I visited,

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church when, when our group visited

a church in the small

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town of Baldhams,

one of my favorite places on earth.

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Completely beautiful.

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It's a valley

with a river flowing through it

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and just a completely amazing place,

when talking about the landscape.

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But there is a Mennonite church there,

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and they have a whole floor

devoted to a museum of Mennonite history.

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Whoa. Oh, okay.

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Well, let's go back.

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I would love to get.

Where in Germany is this?

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Yeah.

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So this is Baldhams,

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Not so when it comes to German geography,

it's kind of like their language.

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It's all kind of mixed together.

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In a way.

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And so it's, I think it's,

a couple hours drive from, Munich.

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So, yeah, definitely

western, western part of the country.

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And like I

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said, a whole floor dedicated

to a museum of Mennonite history.

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And it's for the first time

I started seeing that connection.

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With me, a Ukrainian by birth

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and the spiritual heritage I was part of.

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And one would think, well,

what is what could the connection between,

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somebody of Slavic heritage

like myself and German Anabaptism?

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What connection can that possibly have?

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So I'll give a little bit of history,

as best as I know,

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with full acknowledgment

that there are those in our circles

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and those that you interview that would

know this history much better than I do.

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So so when preparing for this interview,

I just went online,

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to get something more articulated

than, than I can come up with.

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And I, came across,

this excerpt from the Global Mennonite

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Encyclopedia online GAMEO, if you will,

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and it talks about, Catherine

the second, Empress of Russia.

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And she lived from 1762 to 1796.

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So around the time period that the United

States of America was a new country,

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the American Revolution,

I think that, period in history.

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And she called the or she referred

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to that Mennonites as competent colonists.

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She invited them into her recently

acquired lands in Ukraine.

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So she was

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German, but through political affiliation,

she got married

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to, someone in the Russian Empire

of high stature.

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Could have been even, like a czar

or or however you want to put it.

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So she had a lot of power.

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So she invited these,

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these Mennonites to come

and settle her newly acquired lands.

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So I'm continuing, here from the,

that article on,

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22nd of July, 1763,

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she issued a manifesto guaranteeing

to all German immigrants,

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regardless of creed,

freedom of speech, schools and religion,

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autonomous government of villages,

communities and colonist areas,

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and above

all, freedom from military service.

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So by means of a special document

signed by George von Trapp,

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she invited the Mennonites in West Prussia

to immigrate to Russia,

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promising them complete freedom

for all time and 65 disatinas

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or about 165 acres of land

for each family.

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And then on August 17th, 1786,

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the document was read

aloud at a public meeting at Danzig

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In autumn of the

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same year, Jacob

Hoeppner and Johann Bartsch

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went to Russia

as deputies of the Prussian Mennonites.

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So after that time begins this migration

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by various routes

depending on where people were located.

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And this museum at Baldhams,

actually has a map of

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that of like 5 to 7 different groups.

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And the routes, whether through land

or sea, that they took to where eventually

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they settled in the Russian Empire

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and one of the first villages

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was established in 1789,

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and that was in present day Ukraine.

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And so the Mennonite community

there prospered for the next,

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120 odd years or so until

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the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.

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By this time they had done very well,

economically.

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They were hard working, industrious.

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Ring any bells from nowadays?

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So, but 1917 comes

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and the, the revolution takes its toll.

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So some compromised,

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some took up arms,

some started fighting for one side

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or another during the Civil war

that was happening at the time.

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Others fled at that time or later,

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and a significant number

eventually found themselves

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in the eastern parts

of the former Russian Empire.

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So you kind of see this

parallel development, like the heritage

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of American Anabaptist,

would be that whenever,

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the persecutions in the

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16th century, 17th century

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was heavy in parts of

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Western Europe, a lot of them fled west,

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to North America, Canada,

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some some even to South America,

and settled there.

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But a number went east.

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And then something that's important

is that they kept their language,

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including High German and their dialect,

which, if you know anything about Germany,

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I think it's most German, speak a dialect,

depending on where they're from.

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And then High German, which, is kind

of an invention of by Martin Luther.

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That came about

as he was translating the Bible

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and united the Germanic peoples

with a common language,

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so that that contribution of his,

I think, was was very noble.

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And it's interesting to see how,

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just education and language development

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and the spread of the gospel

can often run together

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in ways that, well you wouldn't

put it together otherwise.

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So, just amazing how God works.

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This is wild. So.

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Okay, so they're fleeing during the,

primarily Bolshevik revolution.

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So 1917 think World War One era.

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They're going further east yet like,

so they went to Ukraine initially.

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That's already to the east.

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And then we're going further than that.

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Yet into the deeper

into the Russian Empire, I assume.

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Like how far did they go?

Where did they end up?

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Where are they today?

I guess two would be the other.

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Obvious question,

because that's only 115 years ago or so.

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Yeah. Good question.

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And from my research I found that,

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not sure if it's totally accurate to say

they went more

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like they were pushed together.

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Shown shown the door or, fled.

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Otherwise, and different people

got out different ways.

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So one of the guarantees,

if you remember, by Catherine

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the Great, as history calls her, was that

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they would not have to serve

in the military for all time.

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Yeah.

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And so when those rights begin

to be compromised,

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the new, new government,

the communist government

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that was going to take over there, like,

we're not going to, hold true to that.

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You either come join us, help us fight,

or get out of here or however.

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And so again, they they suffered a lot

during the period of the Civil War

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leading up to the, the revolution

and during that time.

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Yes. So as a result of all this scattering

that came about of the

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internal civic strife

that was happening,

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many fled where they could ending up

at the far corners of the world,

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you could say places like Siberia, places

like Kazakhstan, Tajikistan,

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other places that are like, closer to Asia

than they are to Europe.

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Wow. Yeah, that's a piece of the story

that we don't hear.

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Like I've bumped into it just a little bit

because of another organization working

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with, and we're running into little,

hints that,

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oh, that they were or are Mennonites

in different parts of Central Asia,

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which is like really far east from Europe,

you know, how did they get here?

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You know. Oh, they were fleeing different,

different persecutions.

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I think there may have been some

that fled even before,

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the World War One era,

just different things like that.

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Like I've never heard that story before.

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So we have this story of the scattering

of various Anabaptist groups,

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you know, starting in Germany,

and then you're talking about

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the Slavic areas, Ukraine going further

east and deeper into the Russian Empire.

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What are some of the larger

let's maybe zoom out, you know, larger,

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events and processes

that are happening, during this time.

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Yeah.

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So the interesting thing is that, these

Mennonites, Anabaptists were a lot of them

245

00:14:12,726 --> 00:14:17,773

were wealthy landowners, hard working,

and those who were true to the faith.

246

00:14:18,065 --> 00:14:19,149

I want to make an accent that

247

00:14:19,149 --> 00:14:22,278

because there were those

that kind of got acculturated, right.

248

00:14:22,278 --> 00:14:25,531

We have our culture and we're just

going to live and not really mingle with,

249

00:14:26,490 --> 00:14:28,784

with the Slavs,

and we're going to do our own thing.

250

00:14:28,784 --> 00:14:31,412

All right? We're going to live in peace,

be the quiet of the land.

251

00:14:31,412 --> 00:14:35,833

But there were those who were faithful

and who were, revived and,

252

00:14:36,083 --> 00:14:39,587

children of God, you could say

that were passionate about their faith,

253

00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:45,134

and they would inevitably witness, and

there would be converts amongst the Slavs.

254

00:14:46,093 --> 00:14:48,679

So these Slavs,

255

00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:53,684

alongside those who became believers

by like, reading the Bible and,

256

00:14:53,809 --> 00:14:59,481

and that kind of thing, where

those who clung to kingdom principles

257

00:14:59,481 --> 00:15:02,484

and were taking the commands of Christ

seriously.

258

00:15:03,402 --> 00:15:07,573

So these Slavic converts,

whether converted through

259

00:15:07,573 --> 00:15:11,785

the work of the Anabaptists or

by reading the scriptures for themselves,

260

00:15:12,870 --> 00:15:14,872

they are the ones

who are not hiding their faith.

261

00:15:14,872 --> 00:15:19,376

They are evangelizing,

baptizing people in their locales.

262

00:15:20,419 --> 00:15:24,340

So once Western Anabaptist influence

263

00:15:25,674 --> 00:15:29,470

moves on due to emigration or relocation

by the authorities,

264

00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:34,224

it was this Slavic expression of faith

that was left in that area.

265

00:15:35,392 --> 00:15:39,396

So you have these parallel communities

that develop separately,

266

00:15:39,813 --> 00:15:43,067

but share

a lot of the same kingdom values.

267

00:15:44,068 --> 00:15:47,488

And these values thrive

even when the atheistic communist

268

00:15:47,488 --> 00:15:49,949

government persecutes the church.

269

00:15:49,949 --> 00:15:52,409

And here again, there's some compromise.

270

00:15:52,409 --> 00:15:54,453

And the loss of these teachings of Christ.

271

00:15:54,453 --> 00:15:58,082

However, others stay faithful

and become what the world knows

272

00:15:58,082 --> 00:16:01,085

today as the persecuted church.

273

00:16:01,710 --> 00:16:02,753

This is really,

274

00:16:02,753 --> 00:16:05,756

really interesting,

like tracing this thread

275

00:16:05,798 --> 00:16:09,385

through history and it feels like

there's a chunk of the story at least.

276

00:16:09,385 --> 00:16:12,388

I mean, I haven't heard, you know,

and so I and I'm guessing a lot of other

277

00:16:12,388 --> 00:16:15,391

people have forgotten

or don't know about it.

278

00:16:15,683 --> 00:16:19,687

But why do you think it's important

that that we're aware of this, like,

279

00:16:19,853 --> 00:16:22,773

okay, so we're sitting here

and in America, you know, and

280

00:16:22,773 --> 00:16:26,151

and you mentioned how there's

that part of the scattering.

281

00:16:26,151 --> 00:16:26,819

Right.

282

00:16:26,819 --> 00:16:29,571

Then there's these other groups

and their experience

283

00:16:29,571 --> 00:16:32,741

and that what they went through,

what can we learn from them?

284

00:16:32,741 --> 00:16:34,076

Why is that important?

285

00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:36,328

And, and anything else

you want to share along with that?

286

00:16:36,328 --> 00:16:39,331

I guess that's kind of bringing us more up

to present day, as well.

287

00:16:39,331 --> 00:16:43,335

So So when I think about the implications

of asking that question,

288

00:16:43,627 --> 00:16:46,964

I like to describe it with a term

that I borrowed from anthropology

289

00:16:47,631 --> 00:16:50,634

and kind of give it

a little bit of a spiritual twist to it.

290

00:16:50,801 --> 00:16:54,513

So there's this anthropological term

called ethno centricity,

291

00:16:54,888 --> 00:16:57,725

which is the belief that one's own

ethnic group,

292

00:16:57,725 --> 00:17:00,769

nationality

or culture is superior to others.

293

00:17:01,353 --> 00:17:04,356

And so when I first found out about it,

I was like, well,

294

00:17:04,565 --> 00:17:09,570

is there a possibility that some people

can be or groups or communities

295

00:17:09,570 --> 00:17:12,573

or churches can have a spiritual

296

00:17:12,573 --> 00:17:18,037

sort of ethno centricity

and considering that, their culture

297

00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:21,874

or their specific way of doing things

is superior to others.

298

00:17:22,416 --> 00:17:25,419

And as I got thinking about that,

the thought occurred that

299

00:17:26,003 --> 00:17:29,715

you don't even have to think

that way, that you're superior.

300

00:17:31,258 --> 00:17:34,261

It's by disregarding or

301

00:17:34,845 --> 00:17:38,223

omitting the experiences

of other cultures,

302

00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,643

especially where Christ and God

have worked.

303

00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:46,106

And if you kind of disregard them,

if they're not part of your experience,

304

00:17:46,315 --> 00:17:49,818

I believe that it's very easy

for this spiritual kind of ethno

305

00:17:49,818 --> 00:17:54,198

centricity to creep in

and begin to be part of your life

306

00:17:54,198 --> 00:17:58,368

and be part of your worldview

and that kind of thing.

307

00:17:59,036 --> 00:18:01,371

So I believe that

it is in our best interest

308

00:18:01,371 --> 00:18:05,459

to develop an awareness of the issues

churches,

309

00:18:07,294 --> 00:18:10,839

especially the persecuted

church, are facing

310

00:18:11,173 --> 00:18:14,843

and how other contexts of Kingdom

Christianity have approached

311

00:18:14,843 --> 00:18:17,846

various facets of the faith.

312

00:18:18,597 --> 00:18:21,809

As in, we have a lot to learn

from these people basically.

313

00:18:21,809 --> 00:18:22,101

Right.

314

00:18:22,101 --> 00:18:24,728

Like like it's easy

to look at our experience

315

00:18:24,728 --> 00:18:28,315

in total isolation and just be like here

it is, you know, and you're saying,

316

00:18:28,315 --> 00:18:32,152

well let's, let's expand

our perspective a bit or let's

317

00:18:33,278 --> 00:18:34,404

have an awareness of the

318

00:18:34,404 --> 00:18:38,158

experience of others that went through

through what you've been describing here.

319

00:18:38,158 --> 00:18:40,911

Is that a fair way of saying it?

320

00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:42,788

yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

321

00:18:42,788 --> 00:18:44,873

And in order to be able

to learn from something,

322

00:18:44,873 --> 00:18:46,959

you need to know that it exists.

323

00:18:46,959 --> 00:18:48,293

This is true.

324

00:18:48,293 --> 00:18:51,839

Yeah, that's a good point because again,

I think a lot of the story you're telling,

325

00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:54,299

I, I'm

guessing a lot of people don't know it.

326

00:18:54,299 --> 00:18:56,552

I mean, this is a lot

this is new for me, you know.

327

00:18:56,552 --> 00:18:59,179

So let's get a little more specific.

328

00:18:59,179 --> 00:19:00,722

So we're here in America, right?

329

00:19:00,722 --> 00:19:04,560

We’re North American Anabaptists,

I guess you could say, what can we learn

330

00:19:04,893 --> 00:19:07,646

from these people who have went through

a different experience?

331

00:19:07,646 --> 00:19:08,105

Right.

332

00:19:08,105 --> 00:19:11,108

These other groups

that maybe we don't have an awareness of,

333

00:19:11,191 --> 00:19:13,861

practically speaking,

what are some examples we can learn from?

334

00:19:14,945 --> 00:19:15,237

Yeah.

335

00:19:15,237 --> 00:19:18,782

So one that comes to mind right off

the bat is the way that the persecuted

336

00:19:18,782 --> 00:19:20,450

So one that comes to mind right off

the bat is the way that the persecuted

337

00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:25,706

church, found to keep children

and youth plugged into the church.

338

00:19:25,998 --> 00:19:27,249

So let's remember the context.

339

00:19:27,249 --> 00:19:32,254

You have an atheistic government

that, is bent on destroying Christianity.

340

00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:37,843

And, under the communist regime,

the church that was faithful

341

00:19:38,051 --> 00:19:41,221

needed to find a way

to keep their children.

342

00:19:41,763 --> 00:19:45,100

And when I say faithful,

I say it's because there was a church

343

00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,103

that wasn't faithful, as history

has shown,

344

00:19:48,228 --> 00:19:51,231

to Christ and was under the authority

of the government.

345

00:19:51,315 --> 00:19:55,235

And an interesting story is my mom

actually remembers when, as a little girl,

346

00:19:55,235 --> 00:19:59,198

going to such a church with her mom

and being held up

347

00:19:59,489 --> 00:20:01,658

and not allowed to come

in, as these government

348

00:20:01,658 --> 00:20:04,786

sanctioned churches were not supposed

to have children in the service.

349

00:20:05,495 --> 00:20:09,541

And so right there at the door,

there were deacons or other ministers,

350

00:20:09,917 --> 00:20:13,754

and they were letting the adults come in,

but the children had to stay out.

351

00:20:14,796 --> 00:20:15,380

And the way

352

00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:18,383

my mom described the situation,

it was tragic.

353

00:20:18,467 --> 00:20:19,801

It was it was terrifying.

354

00:20:19,801 --> 00:20:22,930

She had was basically told to separate

355

00:20:22,930 --> 00:20:26,266

from her mother,

but the situation was such.

356

00:20:26,266 --> 00:20:28,644

I guess

there was some kind of a fuss involved.

357

00:20:28,644 --> 00:20:29,561

And they said, okay,

358

00:20:29,561 --> 00:20:33,398

you can go sit somewhere in the back

hidden from you and that kind of thing,

359

00:20:33,607 --> 00:20:37,945

but just imagine that kind of situation

coming to a town near you.

360

00:20:38,737 --> 00:20:42,032

so the faithful church said, no,

our children will be

361

00:20:42,032 --> 00:20:45,244

with us during the service

and they were persecuted for it.

362

00:20:45,786 --> 00:20:49,331

So under a time persecution where it's

hard to do any kind of evangelism,

363

00:20:49,748 --> 00:20:53,085

you you're left with the question of,

well, what are you going to do

364

00:20:53,085 --> 00:20:53,710

with your children?

365

00:20:53,710 --> 00:20:55,837

How are you going to plug them into,

366

00:20:55,837 --> 00:20:59,007

your faith

and make sure that it becomes their own?

367

00:20:59,758 --> 00:21:03,053

And their solution

was involving the children

368

00:21:03,053 --> 00:21:07,432

and young people and encouraging them

to participate in the service.

369

00:21:07,849 --> 00:21:09,685

Beyond just congregational singing.

370

00:21:10,769 --> 00:21:11,019

Right.

371

00:21:11,019 --> 00:21:14,564

So if I think about, Anabaptist context

today

372

00:21:14,773 --> 00:21:17,734

at our time, how do the children

373

00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:20,737

and young people participate

during the regular worship service?

374

00:21:20,988 --> 00:21:24,491

And, well,

there's Sunday school, right, for churches

375

00:21:24,491 --> 00:21:28,495

that have, Sunday school that provides

some level of interaction participation.

376

00:21:28,662 --> 00:21:31,999

But I'm thinking of

just the general worship service.

377

00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:38,213

The extent to which they can do

something, is sing with the congregation.

378

00:21:38,213 --> 00:21:41,216

And I'm not aware of much else.

379

00:21:42,509 --> 00:21:45,512

So the persecuted church

took this approach.

380

00:21:46,221 --> 00:21:49,558

Their belief was that

there was a legitimate way for children

381

00:21:49,558 --> 00:21:53,812

and youth to express themselves

in the spirit of First Corinthians 14:26,

382

00:21:53,812 --> 00:21:56,898

which says, whenever you come together,

each of you that has a psalm,

383

00:21:56,898 --> 00:22:00,110

has a teaching, has a tongue, has

a revelation, has an interpretation.

384

00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:03,030

Let all things be done for edification.

385

00:22:03,030 --> 00:22:05,699

So they were encouraged these children,

386

00:22:05,699 --> 00:22:09,077

young people, to share scriptures,

Christian poetry and songs

387

00:22:09,411 --> 00:22:12,497

during the service and be integrated

388

00:22:12,497 --> 00:22:16,043

in that way to the worship experience.

389

00:22:17,377 --> 00:22:18,420

And this added

390

00:22:18,420 --> 00:22:22,257

dimension of involvement

is something that I see sadly missing

391

00:22:22,257 --> 00:22:26,094

from a lot of the Anabaptist contexts

in our conservative circles.

392

00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:30,932

And I think that's one clear area

where we could learn from the experience

393

00:22:30,932 --> 00:22:34,978

of the persecuted church, and to see

how can we facilitate

394

00:22:34,978 --> 00:22:39,900

the integration of the generations into,

the worship service

395

00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:43,653

and into Christian life in general.

396

00:22:45,489 --> 00:22:47,366

So that's been the experience

397

00:22:47,366 --> 00:22:50,369

of the Slavic Anabaptists.

398

00:22:50,660 --> 00:22:52,579

But I also want to say about,

399

00:22:52,579 --> 00:22:55,582

German Anabaptists who have, after

400

00:22:56,166 --> 00:22:59,628

the generations that they were removed

from their homeland.

401

00:23:00,003 --> 00:23:00,587

Remember that?

402

00:23:00,587 --> 00:23:04,299

I said they kept their, ethnicity.

403

00:23:04,299 --> 00:23:07,803

They kept their High German and their Low

German, so they kept their culture.

404

00:23:08,553 --> 00:23:12,516

So starting in the 1980s,

a lot of them were able to come back

405

00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:17,354

and they, started settlements

essentially, or communities.

406

00:23:18,063 --> 00:23:23,944

And here they are

have having been removed from the culture

407

00:23:23,944 --> 00:23:28,031

or developed so differently,

while sharing the same language.

408

00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:33,453

And they find out that while the values

of the Germans are not our values.

409

00:23:33,703 --> 00:23:38,250

so it's not a secret

that Europe today is very secular,

410

00:23:38,667 --> 00:23:42,963

very low priority placed on, true faith

411

00:23:42,963 --> 00:23:47,759

and generally just the number of or

the level of Christianity has went down.

412

00:23:48,844 --> 00:23:50,804

so these ethnic Germans are

413

00:23:50,804 --> 00:23:54,349

now back in their home

country and are faced with a dilemma.

414

00:23:54,724 --> 00:23:55,809

What are we going to do?

415

00:23:55,809 --> 00:23:59,729

How are we going to pass on our values

to, our children?

416

00:24:00,605 --> 00:24:03,316

And the additional layer of challenge

that they have

417

00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:06,319

is that you can't

have things like homeschooling.

418

00:24:06,361 --> 00:24:09,197

There it's illegal under German law.

419

00:24:09,197 --> 00:24:12,200

So that leaves, public school.

420

00:24:12,242 --> 00:24:15,245

And as I understand, in the public schools

421

00:24:15,245 --> 00:24:17,914

in Germany and in Europe are in some way

422

00:24:17,914 --> 00:24:20,917

even more progressive

than what we've been seeing here.

423

00:24:21,668 --> 00:24:24,337

And again,

not having the option to homeschool.

424

00:24:24,337 --> 00:24:27,799

So the Christian school movement

425

00:24:27,799 --> 00:24:30,802

in Germany is under 20 years old,

426

00:24:31,052 --> 00:24:33,138

So there are German congregations

427

00:24:33,138 --> 00:24:36,808

that would have the same values,

similar values to us.

428

00:24:37,058 --> 00:24:41,438

And they're saying, no, we don't want

the world to educate our children. So,

429

00:24:42,689 --> 00:24:44,900

from that came this development

430

00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,737

of the Christian school movement

in Germany.

431

00:24:48,987 --> 00:24:52,032

And that movement is under 20 years old.

432

00:24:52,073 --> 00:24:53,575

Oh, wow.

433

00:24:53,575 --> 00:24:55,744

And so right now,

to the best of my knowledge,

434

00:24:55,744 --> 00:25:02,000

there are under ten schools in Germany

that would have values similar

435

00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,881

to our Christian day schools

and where I live in Lancaster County.

436

00:25:07,881 --> 00:25:09,883

I wouldn't be surprised

if there are around

437

00:25:09,883 --> 00:25:12,886

50 schools

that would share similar values.

438

00:25:13,512 --> 00:25:16,515

But Germany is the size of Montana,

439

00:25:16,848 --> 00:25:21,937

so compare that that size difference there

and much more densely populated.

440

00:25:21,978 --> 00:25:24,397

And I think Montana's.

441

00:25:24,397 --> 00:25:26,525

So that's that they kind of answers.

442

00:25:26,525 --> 00:25:29,653

One of the questions actually I

had is like, where are these people today?

443

00:25:29,653 --> 00:25:29,986

Right.

444

00:25:29,986 --> 00:25:32,989

You're kind of tracing this story

and the scattering that's happening.

445

00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,827

But if I'm tracking correctly,

you know, a number of these people

446

00:25:37,827 --> 00:25:41,706

that fled east, right,

have have come back to Germany.

447

00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:42,415

Right?

448

00:25:42,415 --> 00:25:45,961

And now one of these things

specifically you're mentioning is now

449

00:25:45,961 --> 00:25:50,131

this new thing of Christian education

or like starting schools, for them.

450

00:25:51,091 --> 00:25:53,635

Wow. Like, I kind

of want to meet these people now, right?

451

00:25:53,635 --> 00:25:57,847

Like, how how have we not heard that

that all these Anabaptist

452

00:25:57,847 --> 00:26:01,226

or Anabaptist minded

people are still there, you know?

453

00:26:02,269 --> 00:26:05,230

You know,

so one of the reasons for that is that,

454

00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:08,692

some of the more conservative groups

that would, would have

455

00:26:08,692 --> 00:26:12,362

similar values to us, they're not

456

00:26:12,612 --> 00:26:14,155

they don't have as much of an online

457

00:26:14,155 --> 00:26:18,243

presence that that we would think is fine

with having

458

00:26:18,243 --> 00:26:23,623

is just the way their traditions

and, their, their contexts developed.

459

00:26:23,957 --> 00:26:27,711

So that's part of the reason is they're,

they're not as much of the group,

460

00:26:27,794 --> 00:26:30,839

not as much part

of a global community as,

461

00:26:31,256 --> 00:26:34,134

as we may we may be

462

00:26:34,134 --> 00:26:37,429

I mean, that's not to say that they're

doing it wrong.

463

00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:38,054

It's just,

464

00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:41,558

they're not as visible.

465

00:26:41,558 --> 00:26:43,893

however, I just want to assure you

that, yes,

466

00:26:43,893 --> 00:26:47,647

kingdom

values are alive in places like Germany.

467

00:26:47,981 --> 00:26:51,109

And like I said earlier,

it is in our best interests

468

00:26:51,484 --> 00:26:55,697

that we connect in

whatever ways we can with these people

469

00:26:56,031 --> 00:26:59,326

that share our values and see

470

00:26:59,326 --> 00:27:02,329

how can we help each other

471

00:27:03,246 --> 00:27:07,292

Well that's a key piece then,

because I can imagine some listeners

472

00:27:07,375 --> 00:27:10,003

hearing this and saying oh okay,

I want to have,

473

00:27:10,003 --> 00:27:12,255

I want to, I want to know more like

I want to have more awareness

474

00:27:12,255 --> 00:27:15,467

of these other groups

that maybe across Europe and other places,

475

00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,971

how can how can they start,

how can we start raising more awareness

476

00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:23,391

of these different groups and,

at least acknowledge that

477

00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:27,020

they exist or I, I'm not even sure

what the next moves would be here,

478

00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:29,105

but it feels like

this is really significant.

479

00:27:29,105 --> 00:27:31,858

And of course, I want to

just put that out there of,

480

00:27:31,858 --> 00:27:34,444

you know,

if some of these people are over there

481

00:27:34,444 --> 00:27:37,238

and hear this podcast, like, reach out,

you know, like, maybe we could connect.

482

00:27:37,238 --> 00:27:40,408

I mean, I'd love to interview some of them

and get their story, you know, as well.

483

00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:43,453

But yeah, I'd be curious

what you have to say to that.

484

00:27:43,453 --> 00:27:43,870

Sure.

485

00:27:43,870 --> 00:27:46,873

So in my mind,

you have to start with a desire.

486

00:27:47,165 --> 00:27:49,376

There must be an awareness and a desire

487

00:27:49,376 --> 00:27:53,463

to get to know

a different facet of the kingdom of God.

488

00:27:53,463 --> 00:27:54,798

And where God has worked.

489

00:27:54,798 --> 00:27:56,591

So something that comes to mind is,

490

00:27:56,591 --> 00:27:59,719

if you're planning a trip to Europe,

make it more than just a vacation.

491

00:28:00,011 --> 00:28:02,013

Plan to visit one of their churches.

492

00:28:02,013 --> 00:28:05,225

I know people that have

and were enriched by the experience.

493

00:28:05,558 --> 00:28:10,021

You'll find things that are different,

but you'll also find like aha moments.

494

00:28:10,021 --> 00:28:13,233

Wow. You know,

that is very fascinating and neat.

495

00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:19,030

something specific that comes to mind is,

the one church that I have some contact

496

00:28:19,030 --> 00:28:23,034

with is they have a church yearbook,

and we know of, like, school yearbooks.

497

00:28:23,034 --> 00:28:24,786

Right. But this is a church yearbook.

498

00:28:24,786 --> 00:28:28,790

And if you were to look at that yearbook,

you would see a table

499

00:28:28,790 --> 00:28:33,670

with all the services who preached

and what they preached about.

500

00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:35,338

That's a short summary of that.

501

00:28:35,338 --> 00:28:38,550

And then you would have things like,

what are some things that happened

502

00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:39,968

in the life of the church?

503

00:28:39,968 --> 00:28:41,261

What are some ministries?

504

00:28:41,261 --> 00:28:44,389

What were the young people doing

who was baptized?

505

00:28:44,681 --> 00:28:46,808

Who was born? Right?

506

00:28:46,808 --> 00:28:48,059

And then over the years,

507

00:28:48,059 --> 00:28:51,479

you get a collection of memories

that allows you to look back and see

508

00:28:51,938 --> 00:28:55,150

where are

where are we compared to ten years ago?

509

00:28:55,150 --> 00:28:58,737

Where are we compared to, such

and such a time and place?

510

00:28:59,195 --> 00:29:02,407

One thing I find is that,

like the American Anabaptists,

511

00:29:02,407 --> 00:29:06,119

we love going back to the 1500s

and saying that's where we came from.

512

00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:08,121

Or the ante-Nicene fathers.

513

00:29:08,121 --> 00:29:13,042

And we still hold true to that faith,

but then we are not often

514

00:29:13,042 --> 00:29:14,961

as well-versed in more recent history

515

00:29:14,961 --> 00:29:17,964

of, well, what has happened in the past

100 years or 200 years?

516

00:29:18,047 --> 00:29:20,842

What have some shifts,

517

00:29:20,842 --> 00:29:24,929

been that that have happened

that I need to know about?

518

00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:30,602

And I do really applaud the the brothers,

the historians among us who who take

519

00:29:30,602 --> 00:29:34,647

initiative in finding out that history

to make sure it's not forgotten.

520

00:29:35,315 --> 00:29:37,233

So I really appreciate that.

521

00:29:37,233 --> 00:29:40,195

And if you're involved in that effort,

then that's great.

522

00:29:40,195 --> 00:29:44,032

If you're if you're listening to this,

I just want to bless you in continuing

523

00:29:44,032 --> 00:29:47,368

that work, in raising

awareness of of history, because it's

524

00:29:47,368 --> 00:29:51,539

such a critical part

of the of the Christian experience.

525

00:29:52,957 --> 00:29:53,666

So another thing

526

00:29:53,666 --> 00:29:56,711

that comes to mind

is if you come from a background

527

00:29:56,711 --> 00:30:01,257

that has, knowledge of High German,

that could open doors for you.

528

00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:04,928

So going back to what I said

about the preacher,

529

00:30:04,928 --> 00:30:07,931

I went with, in 2014, brother Mose,

530

00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:11,851

he came from an Amish background,

and then he got to visit,

531

00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:15,730

Germany, I think it was the 1970s.

532

00:30:16,147 --> 00:30:20,568

And he was really inspired

by the Christians that have,

533

00:30:20,735 --> 00:30:24,030

at that point, just started coming back

from the former Soviet Union.

534

00:30:24,447 --> 00:30:28,952

And it really profoundly impacted his

his Christian life.

535

00:30:29,702 --> 00:30:35,041

He just saw the fervor of these brothers

that were just a couple of years

536

00:30:35,041 --> 00:30:38,044

ago, persecuted,

may have spent time in prison,

537

00:30:38,044 --> 00:30:40,922

and it really had

a profound impact on his life.

538

00:30:40,922 --> 00:30:44,551

So he came back

and he attended night classes

539

00:30:44,884 --> 00:30:48,429

to learn High German was able to,

540

00:30:48,721 --> 00:30:53,643

I guess because of his Amish background,

aquire it rather efficiently.

541

00:30:53,893 --> 00:30:57,313

And then when he went back,

he was able to converse with them

542

00:30:57,689 --> 00:31:01,526

and able to exchange ideas

and and this whole thing

543

00:31:01,526 --> 00:31:06,573

which really impacted,

his spiritual walk positively.

544

00:31:07,866 --> 00:31:08,366

like I

545

00:31:08,366 --> 00:31:11,369

said, there's an interest

in the Christian school movement,

546

00:31:11,369 --> 00:31:14,998

to create connection between the,

547

00:31:15,957 --> 00:31:19,252

Anabaptist schools here

and the Anabaptist schools over there.

548

00:31:20,461 --> 00:31:23,464

This could look something

like a pen pal program.

549

00:31:23,631 --> 00:31:28,303

And at least one of my contacts asked

about a school exchange program of sorts.

550

00:31:28,887 --> 00:31:31,890

And that's the discussion

I'm in right now.

551

00:31:32,015 --> 00:31:36,144

When preparing for this interview

I asked one of my contacts

552

00:31:36,144 --> 00:31:40,231

in Germany is like, what would you say

if you were in my place?

553

00:31:40,732 --> 00:31:45,445

And he right away said that there is a

need for Christian school teachers there.

554

00:31:45,820 --> 00:31:47,071

The difficulty in Germany

555

00:31:47,071 --> 00:31:50,783

is that the German government,

who oversees all the aspects

556

00:31:50,783 --> 00:31:55,330

of the education in the country,

has strict requirements

557

00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:59,042

for teachers in order to become certified

and teach legally.

558

00:31:59,459 --> 00:32:01,961

And one of those is

you must have, at minimum,

559

00:32:01,961 --> 00:32:04,881

a master's degree in order to be able

to teach at a public school.

560

00:32:04,881 --> 00:32:06,507

There. Whoa.

561

00:32:06,507 --> 00:32:09,719

Okay, that's, that's a major investment.

562

00:32:09,761 --> 00:32:14,515

You know, I it's a it's a equip bout a six

year process to get a master's degree.

563

00:32:14,724 --> 00:32:17,352

For those listening. Wow.

564

00:32:18,978 --> 00:32:19,228

Yeah.

565

00:32:19,228 --> 00:32:22,273

So maybe you're in the process

of getting a higher education

566

00:32:22,523 --> 00:32:26,277

and are looking for ways to serve Adding

something like Tesol

567

00:32:26,277 --> 00:32:29,906

training to your degree may open up doors

you've never dreamed of.

568

00:32:29,948 --> 00:32:32,075

That's true.

569

00:32:32,075 --> 00:32:36,829

All of this is fascinating,

and I really want to know more.

570

00:32:36,829 --> 00:32:41,584

I hope we can pursue this,

topic on the podcast in the future.

571

00:32:41,584 --> 00:32:45,129

I feel like there's a there's

a big piece here that we've been missing.

572

00:32:45,129 --> 00:32:46,381

Or at least I've been missing.

573

00:32:46,381 --> 00:32:48,925

I mean, maybe other people know this,

but I haven't heard this before.

574

00:32:48,925 --> 00:32:53,137

So as we wrap this up and kind of tie

the ribbons on this topic, so to speak,

575

00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:56,432

what is something you would like to leave

with the listeners?

576

00:32:57,392 --> 00:32:58,768

Yeah. So two things.

577

00:32:58,768 --> 00:33:01,771

One is if I said something

that resonated with you

578

00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:06,901

and you would like to contact me,

I would be glad to discuss this topic.

579

00:33:06,901 --> 00:33:08,569

I'm I'm very passionate about it.

580

00:33:08,569 --> 00:33:13,116

I'm going through schooling of my own

right now, with the intended goal

581

00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:17,829

of moving to Germany for at least

a couple of years and serving in that way.

582

00:33:17,829 --> 00:33:20,999

And to get to know, the community there,

583

00:33:21,249 --> 00:33:25,712

because I place a lot of value

on the things that I was talking about.

584

00:33:26,129 --> 00:33:29,674

I certainly don't want to be

in the category of being spiritually

585

00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:31,009

ethnocentric.

586

00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:35,304

And, just allowing that line

of thinking of superiority

587

00:33:35,304 --> 00:33:37,974

to cloud my vision of Christ

and his kingdom.

588

00:33:37,974 --> 00:33:40,977

And that would be my recommendation

for, for everybody.

589

00:33:41,185 --> 00:33:43,896

So to contact me,

you can just get in touch

590

00:33:43,896 --> 00:33:47,567

with Anabaptist perspectives and they'll

be glad to make the connection there.

591

00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:51,571

And lastly, I just want to leave you

with one quote that has spoken to me,

592

00:33:51,988 --> 00:33:56,409

by Ralph Waldo Emerson,

which says, the mind, once

593

00:33:56,409 --> 00:34:00,496

stretched by a new idea

never returns to its original dimensions.

594

00:34:00,872 --> 00:34:03,875

And my hope

is that by listening to this podcast,

595

00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,003

your mind has been stretched

just a little bit

596

00:34:07,003 --> 00:34:10,506

so that you can be more aware

of the possibilities that are out there,

597

00:34:10,506 --> 00:34:13,801

the possibilities of serving Christ,

the possibilities of what is happening

598

00:34:14,177 --> 00:34:18,056

in the world today

that wants to align itself

599

00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:24,729

with, kingdom values and something

that has meant so much to us here,

600

00:34:25,271 --> 00:34:28,775

and how all these different parts

can be connected, because in the end,

601

00:34:29,442 --> 00:34:31,986

we're going to be in heaven together,

Lord willing.

602

00:34:31,986 --> 00:34:34,989

And I think that starting the process

603

00:34:35,323 --> 00:34:39,827

of getting to know each other and helping

each other's needs, serving each other,

604

00:34:40,912 --> 00:34:43,915

would be best to do here on Earth.

605

00:34:45,083 --> 00:34:48,211

That's, Wow,

you gave us a lot to think about.

606

00:34:48,211 --> 00:34:50,755

And that's a wonderful piece

to end us with.

607

00:34:50,755 --> 00:34:51,547

And yeah,

608

00:34:51,547 --> 00:34:55,510

I just want to reaffirm that if someone

watching this has more information

609

00:34:55,510 --> 00:34:58,513

and wants to learn more and wants

to connect with you or us or something,

610

00:34:58,638 --> 00:35:00,223

yeah, definitely get in touch.

611

00:35:00,223 --> 00:35:02,850

You can easily do that

through our website or or something.

612

00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:05,186

Because, yeah,

I feel like this is a topic

613

00:35:05,186 --> 00:35:06,229

we're going to want to come back to you.

614

00:35:06,229 --> 00:35:09,857

And, maybe when you move to Germany

and get settled in there,

615

00:35:09,857 --> 00:35:11,275

maybe we'll come over there

and interview you

616

00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:13,528

and kind of see how it's going

and meet some of these people.

617

00:35:13,528 --> 00:35:16,030

That would be

that would be amazing. So, yeah.

618

00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:18,950

Thanks so much for coming on today

and for sharing this.

619

00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:19,200

Yeah.

620

00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,578

And thank you for having me

as a guest here on the podcast.

621

00:35:22,578 --> 00:35:26,582

And blessings to you as you continue

this work of asking what I believe

622

00:35:26,582 --> 00:35:29,877

to be the right questions

and yeah, may God use you

623

00:35:29,877 --> 00:35:32,880

to impact, the world for for his glory.

624

00:35:33,256 --> 00:35:34,298

Yeah. Thank you. Yuriy.

625

00:35:35,842 --> 00:35:38,136

Thanks for listening to this episode

with Yuriy.

626

00:35:38,136 --> 00:35:40,012

We did a previous episode with him

627

00:35:40,012 --> 00:35:43,891

telling this story about how he was born

in Ukraine behind the Iron Curtain,

628

00:35:43,891 --> 00:35:47,562

and ultimately found his way to America

and the Anabaptist movement.

629

00:35:47,687 --> 00:35:50,356

You can find that

linked in the description down below.

630

00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:53,151

We also have an email newsletter,

which you can sign up for

631

00:35:53,151 --> 00:35:56,320

on our website

at Anabaptistperspectives.org.

632

00:35:56,737 --> 00:35:59,157

Thanks again

and we'll see you in the next episode.