PJ Ellis (00:38)

I've never ever welcomed to the pod the head of UK counterterrorism negotiations. So I'm buzzing to be able to do that this morning with Katey Martin. Good morning, Katey, how are you?

Katey Martin (00:49)

Good morning, I'm good thank you, it's nice to be here.

PJ Ellis (00:53)

I'm buzzing. I genuinely can't believe that. I mean, that is a seriously impressive job title. Now, I've looked at your CV, looked at LinkedIn. I could talk and wax lyrical about who I think Katey Martin is, but who is our lovely Katey Martin? Over to you, Bab.

Katey Martin (01:10)

Over to you, Bab. I love that. You see, this is why I love this area of the UK, because of Bab. Who am I? Gosh, that's a question. I've been a police officer for 30 years in the Met in London, and I'm a police officer for the next few days, because on Friday, I leave policing. I know. So it's quite a big week for me this week, actually.

PJ Ellis (01:28)

tonight.

Katey Martin (01:31)

But for the last 10 years I've had the best job in policing I think. So I've been in counter-terrorism being the one of few in the UK who are on the UK counter-terrorism negotiation team. with that comes the course director for our wonderful counter-terrorism negotiation course. In a nutshell, we have about thousand negotiators across the UK.

About 250 of those have to be trained to be able to negotiate with someone committing an act of terrorism. And it's been my job for the last few years to train those wonderful negotiators so they go through an extra bit of training with us, with our team. So yeah, it's a great job and I love it.

PJ Ellis (02:15)

Wow. Thanks for your service. You know, happy retirement come Friday. Wow.

Katey Martin (02:18)

⁓ thank you. Well,

it's not going to be retirement. There's lots planned. But yeah, it's a weird thing when you've been, you know, walked through the gates of Hendon 30 years ago and it's just gone in a flash and I've had the best career. It's just been brilliant fun. yeah.

Andy Dawson (02:21)

Yeah.

So, come on, just before we dive in, what's next then? What can you share? What's on the horizon?

Katey Martin (02:38)

What's next? Well, I've set up company with two other wonderful women called Dare. we deliver training. So basically we have all these wonderful skill sets from policing and from negotiation. And they are so valid out in, I say out there as if it's some place I haven't been. We know that it is really good stuff for businesses. So I'm lucky enough to work with.

two really cool girls and one of them I worked with in negotiation. She was the previous head of negotiation for the UK for all negotiation and the other one is a marketeer called Marie who's fantastic. So Bex, Marie and Katey now form the DARE team. So that's the something that we're doing and then I've just got a few other little things that I do as well.

Andy Dawson (03:27)

And have I got the job title right? Is it Chief Dare Officer Is that? ⁓

Katey Martin (03:30)

Chief Dare officers.

Chief Dare officers. Yeah. So we do, we're sort of a female empowerment piece as well. So we do training to all, but we also have sort of a strand of it called Girls Who Dare where we do a monthly newsletter and it's about elevating other women, rising up together, allyships. We're really big on allyship. You know, we love nothing more than when we have really strong males.

pushing that female piece and helping people break through glass ceilings, mentorship, that sort of thing. So, yeah.

Andy Dawson (04:02)

So take us to the beginning then Katey, if you may. So when you were, my lad's 17, final year of school, got a few thoughts about what he wants to do. So what was it you wanted to do when you were about to go into the workplace? What was your ambition and was it always policing?

Katey Martin (04:08)

yeah, yeah.

I wanted to be a cop. You know what, it was the strangest thing. So I went to a really good school and everyone was like off to uni and I didn't want to go to uni. I did work experience age 16 at the local Nick and everyone came back from their work experience sort of having done filing and making tea and I'd been chasing, I'd been in car chases, I'd been like having this really mad week and I was

buzzing and I came back and I was like, I did this and then there was an urgent assistance and I had to get on the radio and I didn't know what I was doing and everyone was like, wow. And it just, yeah, I was just hooked. It was great. I thought, gosh, you get paid to do this stuff. And so yeah, I kind of ran away and joined the Newport and police circus. That was me.

PJ Ellis (05:07)

Man,

I mean, was that inspired? I love that car chases on your work experience. I was in the back of a Royal Mail van, like delivering letters. The best thing about my work experience was the postman was my cousin and he used to take me to breakfast every Friday, but hey-ho. ⁓ What was that inspired by then, Katey? You wanted to be a cop. Was it the drama on TV? Is it a family tradition? Bit of both? No?

Katey Martin (05:13)

it

Fantastic!

Well, it's not a family tradition at all.

I think my granddad, who I never met, was in the Met years ago, but I never met him, never spoke to him. It wasn't really spoken about when I was growing up. I'm one of three girls and I'm the youngest and I just think I've always been the one that is a bit of a pain, to be honest with you, and has to do something a little bit different. Although my middle sister is now aged, well, in her early 50s, joining

Sussex Police as a direct entry detective. So as I leave, she's coming in. So that's a bit nuts. yeah, I don't know. I look back to when I was really young, right? And my best friend, Joe and I, used to love dressing up. We had this ridiculous dressing up box that was just full of tat. But what it did have in it was it had a nurse's uniform and a police officer's uniform. And there's pictures of us, age about four.

Andy Dawson (06:00)

Blimey

Katey Martin (06:20)

and she's dressed up as a nurse and I'm dressed up in this police officer's uniform. Obviously it's a bobby hat, it's a man's hat because women in the police just didn't exist, right? And she's turned out to be a nurse and I've turned out to be a cop. So I blame the dressing up box

PJ Ellis (06:33)

That means I'm going to be like a chief of an Indian tribe then, because I used to have that big massive feather. I was going to ask a very bizarre question, and how important in life is dressing up? Is that an identity piece that you think has stuck with you? Is that giving you some stability in life, knowing what you wanted to do? I know it's a difficult question to answer, isn't it? Because I suppose you haven't lived any other life.

Katey Martin (06:39)

There you go.

I you

do you know what? I've got three children and one's 26 now, but I've got twins who are 17. so they're, Andy, are very similar to our age to your son. And it's really hard. It's really hard, I think. I felt really grateful that I knew what I wanted to do. I think it's one of the hardest things for kids now to work out what

they want to do? Do they go to uni? Do they land themselves with a load of debt? Do they go out to the workplace? Is there an apprenticeship for them? It's big choices, but I think it even starts earlier than that. It starts with their GCSEs because there's so many avenues that are shut off, isn't there? If they choose certain GCSEs, they then can't go on to certain A levels. They then can't go on to certain degrees. So I think there's a lot of pressure on our young people. It feels like more than there was when I was...

that age, but then I knew what I wanted to do. I don't know.

Andy Dawson (07:50)

Bad news for me is that I've got one lad doing, his final year GCSEs, one lad doing, final year of A levels, so it's going to be carnage for the next 10 months.

Katey Martin (07:54)

⁓ dear.

Geez,

Do know, I did have a wobble though. I did have a wobble because I went to uni for a month. The pressure of the whole uni thing kind of got to me and I was like, I have to go to uni, have to go to uni. So I went for a month and I enrolled on a course to do nursing degree and I literally lasted four weeks.

I just couldn't bear it. was like, let me out of its caged environment. And then I just, that's when I went off and joined the Met.

PJ Ellis (08:25)

and what an experience that's been so far. My brother's in the police force and he's in counter-terrorism as well in the West Midlands police. I'm allowed to say that because I don't even know where he works. that sort of like, what's the word? He doesn't tell me much about the things he does. He's starting coming to dinner parties on the zip wire and like a turtle neck and stuff like that. How did you get into that then? you started on

Katey Martin (08:31)

I really...

You've sold him out. Yeah, no.

Brilliant.

PJ Ellis (08:52)

Frontline was in Brixton, wasn't it? Is that right? mean, did that open your eyes to a few things?

Katey Martin (08:53)

Yeah, it was, it was, yeah.

Oh, it's bloody awesome. Yeah, it was a real birth of fire. I looked ridiculously young. It was quite, quite crazy. They used to call my warrant card my kindergarten pass because I looked so young. Um, and I think, I think I was 20, I must've been 20. So I was quite young, but, I remember the first time we stepped out of the police station without being puppy walked because we used to be, you know, looked after for a couple of weeks before we were let loose on the public.

And I think I was probably in a skirt, which when I think back, like wearing a skirt on duty, how ridiculous. I had really skinny legs and these massive DM shoes. So I literally did look like a nine-wood. And we walk out the back gate of the Nick and I was with this colleague of mine called Martin and both of us didn't have a clue what we were doing. And this car drove up through the no entry, which was into the back of where Canterbury Crescent is, where Brixton Police Station is.

and was a convertible and I can remember thinking, he's done a no entry, that's outrageous. Martin, we need to stop him. Just jumping in front of this car and putting my hand up like this, good offset in my big A-line skirt. And as I realized, my eyes focused on the driver, he had a gun to his head. And I was like, ⁓

And that was my birth of fire to policing Brixton. It was, yeah, and he'd been carjacked and he'd done the no entry because he'd seen us. He was like, yeah, these two cops will save me. He's like, yeah.

PJ Ellis (10:23)

Well, so like your first day, assume

that, so correct me if I'm wrong, a guy has got another gun, someone's holding a gun to this guy's head who's driven into an, so are you straight into that negotiation sort of vibe without even knowing it?

Katey Martin (10:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

We were running because the guy jumped and he was on his toes. So we were running. We were on our toes after him going, my God, what do we do if we catch him? Which we did. He got 18 years. So that was my first arrest. ⁓

PJ Ellis (10:42)

Wow.

Andy Dawson (10:49)

That's cool.

PJ Ellis (10:50)

That is a

pretty decent start isn't it to your policing career.

Katey Martin (10:54)

went downhill from there. yeah, was, Brixton was great place to learn. I was very lucky to do it. I did 10 years there, had a really good time.

PJ Ellis (11:01)

Is that where you're from

then, Katey? You from that neck of the woods, you?

Katey Martin (11:04)

No, not at all actually. I am a South London girl, but ⁓ Brixton's not a million miles away from me, but it was a really good place to learn that you had to be able to listen because you had to be able to talk your way out of trouble in Brixton because it was quite spicy at that time. yeah, you worked hard and you played hard, but I met my husband in a crack house there. So, you know, you can't...

Andy Dawson (11:28)

guys.

PJ Ellis (11:29)

I mean, what legend?

Katey Martin (11:31)

19

years of marriage later and he wasn't smoking crack I should clarify he was another police officer.

PJ Ellis (11:36)

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (11:36)

That's good.

PJ Ellis (11:38)

Amazing ,amazing

Andy Dawson (11:39)

I just go back to the first, that carjacking incident? So you chased the guy, presume it was a guy, caught him. What was it like when you went back into the station, into the tea room after that? it, how did, how did that feel?

Katey Martin (11:46)

was.

Nice.

You know what, that's a really good question because I mean, was odd because nothing that was just normal in Brixton. It was just normal. And in those days, there was we were dealing with so much gun crime and what have you. I think I hope it's got a lot better now and police Brixton for a long time. But yeah, it's surreal, really. I don't remember. I probably I probably just made tea for everyone and cracked on. I don't know.

There's probably another call to go to.

PJ Ellis (12:19)

It must have been really scary though. mean, is there something like installed in you that got you through that without you knowing? it that fight or flight sort of mentality, some people leaning to one, some of the other? I think that would have put me off for the rest of my life to be fair. But in fact, it looks like it's inspired you more and more to stick around.

Katey Martin (12:30)

Probably,

I loved it.

I loved it.

It's just an adrenaline boost, wasn't it? I think I was always, I could run, but I couldn't do the short sprint. I was fine on the, so if they kept running, I was all right. I was all right on distance, but I was rubbish. I was rubbish at the sprint. So what I'd find with that is that if you were good at the sprint, you'd catch someone and then everyone would be there to help you detain them.

But if like me, you were rubbish at the sprint and you were running for a while, you'd look around and there'd be no bugger with you. So then when I remember several times being like in the middle of some dodgy estate somewhere where we'd run and it just kept going. And then suddenly they'd stop and I'd be like, shit, where is everyone? And then I'd be like, I don't know where I am. And I've got myself in a hole. They were the scariest ones.

Andy Dawson (13:12)

Ha!

PJ Ellis (13:32)

That's bizarre actually because when you were talking about you being fast, I was thinking of you having the ability to run away, but you're talking about running towards the assailant. Isn't that weird how different people are wired, I suppose?

Katey Martin (13:40)

⁓ no.

Andy Dawson (13:40)

control.

Katey Martin (13:44)

Yeah,

In fact, was, I was, we were up delivering some training in Stoke a couple of weeks ago and two of us are police or one's ex and me. And then another lady was doing the training and she was nothing, had never been police officer, nothing to with policing at all. And we were, we were in the, we were in Tesco's in the Florence and Fred.

PJ Ellis (13:45)

Maybe I'm just cat.

Katey Martin (14:05)

section looking at some clothing. Well, I was, he wasn't, he'd just been patient. And there was a shoplifter that ran through and he was throwing clothes around the place and creating carnage. And this poor security guard was pegging after him, just sweating and just knackered. So we automatically just went after him too. then the other afterwards,

The lady that was with us, the other trainer, she was just like that, she was just frozen to the spot. We were like, are you okay? And she was like, he could have had a knife. And we were like, well, yeah, but you don't, and she was like, why did you go after him? And we were like, it's just immune. She was like, oh my goodness, I completely froze. I didn't know what to do. She was literally stood there like this. If I just stand still, nothing bad will happen. I think it is just in us.

PJ Ellis (14:54)

not.

Katey Martin (14:57)

It's just in us Yeah.

Andy Dawson (14:58)

Yeah. So can you, you kind of take us through the journey to getting into the counter, counter-terrorism side of things?

Katey Martin (15:05)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I was night duty sort of sat as a, we call it a duty officer. So, running a borough in South London, that's 3 AM and I was looking on our internal internet and there was an advert for hostage negotiators and I'd just done, I'd had a job, which I'd been commanding where I'd called negotiators out about week before.

And it had been a long one. was two young girls on a, on a roof. And I'd stood with the team leader talking for hours and hours and hours. And I can remember thinking, ⁓ that sounds really interesting. I'd really like to do that. And then the advert came out and I applied for it. I got the, got on the course. Most negotiators, most of those thousand negotiators do it on top of their day job. So they'll, they'll have a deputy or they'll

come out at night or what have you. it's quite hardcore for most of our negotiators. But I did the course and I sat there and I looked at the trainers and I thought, I want your job. This is great. I was completely bitten by the bug. I can remember going up to the lead trainer at the end going, I really want your job. And then thinking, well, that came out really badly. That was like quite, that was a bit egotistical. I want your job. But they then advertised for the permanent team.

PJ Ellis (16:12)

Yeah.

Katey Martin (16:19)

There's probably about eight full-time negotiators in London. So it's a really niche area out of, you know, 35,000 cops. You've got these eight on the hostage unit in London. But it was just after the 2015 attacks across Europe. So we were suffering in Europe from huge amounts of what was mainly Islamic State terrorism.

We had negotiation in all of them, in many of those attacks, negotiation featured in the UK kind of went, ⁓ hang on a minute. Are we match fit? Do we need to do something more? And so they created a new team, which was the national counterterrorism negotiation team. So I got a job on that, which was fantastic. and so I've never looked back. It's just been brilliant. It's taken me all over the world.

I've trained in some of the most incredible countries with SWAT teams that have nothing that face terrorist threat every single day of duty. It's been a real honor. It's been a massive honor.

Andy Dawson (17:18)

I mean, can you take us in into that world a little bit, whatever story you can share? You know, I'm sure everyone here is going, right, I want to hear a story, what's it actually like?

Katey Martin (17:27)

Mm-hmm.

So I'm lucky enough to be part of, well, for the next few days, the team that represents negotiation for counter-terrorism negotiation in Europe. And that's probably been one of the most rewarding parts of my job, actually. So there's 11 of us that sit on the steering committee for Europe that write the processes and the policy for policing for that area, for our area of business.

And sadly for a lot of those officers in some of their countries, they've faced some really serious terrorist incidents. Thankfully for us, our deployments to all the terror attacks in the UK have been that we've deployed and we support the arrest teams, et cetera, et cetera. But to be able to be part of that training in Europe and

able to negotiate with someone who's committing an act of terrorism has been incredible. So although I can't talk about individual jobs, the overall ethos of being able to impart those skills has been a really exciting part of what I do.

PJ Ellis (18:39)

I mean, I know you can't say the specifics, but for me to understand your role a bit better, am I right in thinking that sometimes you're negotiating directly with the hostage or sometimes you're helping somebody else to negotiate with them? Is that right?

Katey Martin (18:53)

you've done your homework. Very good. Yeah, basically to be a negotiator in the UK, you're either a kidnapped negotiator, you're a crisis negotiator, or you're a counter-terrorism negotiator, or you're all three. So if you're a full-time negotiator, you'll be all three. So you'll be kidnapped, trained, you'll be, that always sounds wrong, doesn't it? You'll be crisis trained and you'll be counter-terrorism trained.

Most of our work in the UK is people in crisis, sadly. So about 95 % of call outs for negotiators in the UK are to people in crisis who are actively undertaking suicide behaviour. that's the main part of what a negotiator in the UK deploys to. They'll also deploy to missing people to help try and get

location of people and get people back safely. We'll also deploy to kidnaps obviously and any terrorist incidents. it's a real scale of what we deploy to and obviously in that is hostage taking all the way through to people who are you know just on their own who want to take their own life.

Andy Dawson (20:01)

See, I'd probably, well, I told my eldest today that we were talking to you and he thought was really cool. was ready to chuck a sickie and he's got to work too hard in his final year. And he said, she's really tough, really hard. And I thought, yeah, she might be. And I've heard the chasing stories, probably are, but I read a little quote about you that someone had left, Rebecca had left. And it said, importantly,

Katey Martin (20:10)

Okay.

Andy Dawson (20:26)

never underestimate Katey. She carries her experience with poise, confidence and great kindness. And I love, I love the word kindness. It's James Timpson from Timpson's talks about, about that a lot. That's a real, really nice reflection for someone to have had, to have had having worked with you. So how, how, do you balance in this role, humanity with a need to sort out a

very serious situation.

Katey Martin (20:54)

Do you know what? Kindness is really key actually and even after we'd chased that shoplifter the other week, both myself and Phil, the guy who I was working with, we said, how sad is that? He's probably really desperate and yeah, he might be an addict, he might be mentally ill. We both said he's living a really hard life.

He only got away with a couple of bras. So we did wonder whether we'd be back for the pants, the matching set the next day. But it's just having that empathy. And I think the younger cop in me grew up being empathetic still. And I've never wanted to lose that. And certainly in negotiation, is key. Empathy is massive. Officers quite often and quite naturally can develop what we'd call an empathy gap just through

PJ Ellis (21:23)

Thank

Katey Martin (21:44)

dealing with so much trauma. I think the average person deals with about two big traumas in their lifetime and they estimate that the average police officer deals with over 800 and I think that's probably an underestimated number if I'm honest. So you can see how you can become quite not immune to people suffering at all but there can be an empathy gap when you're dealing with protection, self-protection thing but actually all our negotiators.

have to be empathetic, to be a good negotiator. You won't get through our courses, particularly the counter-terrorism course, unless you can find something in you that can try and seek the good in everyone. And that is, you know, no one's born bad, is what I always say to the students. No one's born bad. And we've got to leave our judgment at the door, because if we're not the people that leave our judgment at the door, then we can't expect...

to be able to build trust with someone enough to influence their behaviour. yeah, the kindness angle is massively important for me and always has been really.

PJ Ellis (22:49)

Yeah, I love that.

I'd written that down and you beat me to that question actually, because I sort of knew this would probably happen from looking at what you're doing now with the DARE sort of consultancy and stuff. And I did see your title and then, you know, did everything that you shouldn't do, you know, what was it? Judge the book and all that. I did expect it to be a little bit more of a formal conversation and it's been really fun so far and you seem really friendly and all that sort of stuff. And, that kindness is so important.

Thinking up and trauma, it's all linked together for, I didn't think I'd ask this question and I hope you don't mind me asking this and I'm you've got yourself out of a few, what's the word, problems in conversations before, so this won't be a difficult question. But I put myself in my shoes as a parent, really nervous around the future for my kids because they're the most beautiful children, really brilliant, fantastic, got so much to offer, but they lack.

Katey Martin (23:27)

Good.

PJ Ellis (23:39)

They probably lack, if that's the right word, those skills that I used to think and probably are still very important, know, the emotional intelligence, the human intelligence, the confidence, resilience. And what's the word? I constantly feel like I'm treading on broken glass when I'm trying to give them advice. We're going through a family bereavement at the moment. So I know my son misses his nan so much. He's got everything going on. He's 14, hormones, being asked to take these options, know, not knowing what he wants to do, et cetera.

Katey Martin (23:56)

Yeah, I'm sorry. ⁓

Yeah.

PJ Ellis (24:07)

Is there, and this is the question, is there any phrase that you avoid at all costs when you're having or starting those very difficult conversations?

Katey Martin (24:07)

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I think, I think you should. I think the best thing I think what we're really bad at as parents and I include myself in this, you slip into this, you know, you have to switch on sometimes to get into work mode, we just love to give advice. We like to sit in a position of, right, I have to advise my kids. And actually what we forget is we don't listen to our children. And it

PJ Ellis (24:22)

Bye.

Katey Martin (24:45)

It really can open up much better conversations if we stop just lecturing them and start to listen to them. I love a TED question. so tell me, explain to me or describe to me question, which are still all open questions. But the beautiful thing about a TED is it seeks behaviors, it seeks feelings. tell me what's worrying you.

explain to me how it's making you feel at the moment. You know, describe to me what a good day is going to look like for you. And it's a simple takeaway that just means that instead of lecturing, you're actually getting something back. I remember midway through one of our courses, our courses are split by the weekend, we give them a weekend off, I know. And we came back on the Monday and went around the class and said, you know, have everyone had a good weekend? And someone said, I saved my daughter's life.

And everyone kind of sat there aghast and went, really? What? And we said, why? Come on, explain. And they said, well, I walked in the door and usually I'd say, how are you? And usually she'd say, fine, and shut the conversation down because she's a teenager. And he said, I walked in the door and I said, you look troubled. So we call that an emotional label.

So he said what he saw. I always say to people, say what you see, say what you hear. So pick up on people's emotions. So he said, you look troubled. And she said, I am. And from that followed on a conversation where she admitted to him that she'd had suicidal thoughts and that she'd been thinking of taking her life. So just through a simple change of language, it's so important. And even when you think back to when you pick your kids up from school when they're young.

And the first thing we say as parents is what have you done today? And what do they do? They shut down, don't they? You never get anything out of them. And usually if you say, how are you? You get fine in my house. It's a running joke. Fine. So say what you see, say what you hear. you, you look scruffy. You, you look, what's the, you know, and you'll get, yeah, I had a fight at break, break time with Johnny. pulled my hair. You'll get so much more out of them.

just with a very simple twist in language.

Andy Dawson (26:50)

you

PJ Ellis (26:51)

It's got me in the feels a little bit. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Say what you see. I can't help but think of Roy Walker from Catchphrase as well. Do remember him? Say what you see. Do you remember that? If you see it, say it.

Katey Martin (26:53)

Yeah.

Yes. my goodness. ⁓ Yes, I've forgotten about that. There you go. Yeah. If you say it,

say it, say what you say. I can't do the accent, but yeah. And the other thing is if you do have to have a really difficult conversation and tell them something that they're not going to want to hear, then if you precurs it with three lots of empathy, so empathy, empathy, empathy, and then the honesty. So really try and see it.

PJ Ellis (27:09)

Wow, that's so powerful.

Katey Martin (27:26)

through their eyes, which is quite difficult, particularly when they're teenagers. But you know what, if you do that, what happens is that you break them. They break, these barriers go up as soon as as parents we go at them, that they shut us out. They're like, they just hear the white noise. Whereas if you go in with a much softer conversation of, you know, like, I know it's really important to you to go to this party tonight.

And I completely understand all your mates are going to be there. And I guess that this is, you know, something you've really looked forward to, but when is the homework going to get done? It's a much better conversation than you're not going to the party and you've got to be back at midnight. Empathy, empathy, empathy, honesty. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (28:08)

Wow, three empathies, one truth. Love that. Wow.

Andy Dawson (28:14)

So

say, Katey, you were unlucky enough to walk into one of your training courses and see PJ and I in the front of the class. and we were determined to be your best pupils. What are the key topics you cover in some of these, the courses and the training, if you were to kind of label them, you things like active listening and those sorts of things. What would our big takeaways be?

Katey Martin (28:34)

Yeah.

So we take you through first impressions because that's really important. You know, don't get a second chance to make a first impression. first impressions, we take you through sort of the neurological side of it. What happens in people's heads when they meet people, you know, the fight or flight, why that happens. We talk about the chemical response that you would have if you were feeling nervous when you meet someone, that sort of thing, how that affects human behavior, how that affects your conversation.

we'll go through active listening, which is not just skipped over. It is a huge skill that underpins everything in communication terms. And good active listeners make good friends, better partners, better parents. Although I have my moments, trust me, like don't, don't interview my kids PJ and Andy, please. Yeah. So we'll

My favourite exercise actually is called Exercise Know Yourself. I know you interviewed Sharon recently, didn't you, from Services for Education and we were invited up to do a workshop with their teachers and their HR professionals and education providers. It was brilliant. We did Exercise Know Yourself, which is the iceberg exercise. So your behaviour is at the top and your motivation is underneath.

PJ Ellis (29:32)

Yes.

Katey Martin (29:50)

And it's a really good exercise where you start to get to really understand who you're working with. Because we're quite closed as people generally. And we don't always even understand what is underneath our own waters, you know, what creates the behavior that we exhibit, what are our values and beliefs? Yeah, so we'll take you through that. We'll do trust, we'll go through how to manage conversations that are very conflict driven.

how to manage conflict, how to embrace conflict. We're all so scared of conflict. We see it as a bad thing, I think. It's not a bad thing. Good conflict is great. The best conversations have conflict in them.

Andy Dawson (30:30)

Yeah, brilliant. Brilliant. PJ, what do you reckon? Do reckon you'd last it?

Katey Martin (30:33)

Come on, do your course, it's fab.

PJ Ellis (30:34)

I I'm just writing

this down as a takeaway here. The best conversations always have conflict in them. Wow.

Katey Martin (30:40)

Yeah, good conflict.

know, sometimes if we're all just, if we all just agree with each other all the time, right? It's just, how about people just switch it up a bit. It's, it's how we deal with conflict. You know, it's, if someone comes and tells me they're a flat earther, I'm like, I want to hear about this. I want to be curious about that. My worst position, the worst conversations are where you just close down and you go, well, I don't think the earth is flat.

Andy Dawson (31:06)

Yeah.

Katey Martin (31:06)

It's much

more interesting to go, tell me why you think the earth is flat. These conversations end up in bad conflicts or arguments. Switch it around. Next time you find yourself having an argument with someone that's you know a political argument or something, switch it around and just be curious about their position. Instead of trying to ram your position down their throat, it's a much better conversation.

PJ Ellis (31:16)

Love that.

Andy Dawson (31:32)

Yeah.

Yeah. if you've seen, because again, one of the reasons PJ and I have started doing something together is around technology and AI coming and does that create or restrict opportunities, especially for kids in the future? Has technology playing a role, played a role over the years, or do you think that's something that's coming to this sort of industry and kind of skill set to help, or will it distract?

Katey Martin (31:42)

Yes.

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think it's, we've got to embrace it, right? It's, you know, AI, it's not, it's not, it's not going away. And as parents, in particular, I think it's so important that we understand the world that our children are going to be living in, which, you know, if we if we don't keep up with these, these new changes in technology, then, then that that worries me, I think you can

almost be in a position where your children are a little bit more vulnerable if you don't understand the apps that they're on or the games that they're on. So I've always tried to keep up with that, but in policing terms, yeah, we're starting to really have to embrace these changes in technology and a lot of them will make life a lot easier, I think. I don't think it's something to be scared of. It will never replace.

humans, I don't fear that at all. know, humans communicate with empathy. I don't know that a chatbot couldn't give the right level of empathy. But hey, I could, we've not replaced our negotiators with AI bots yet. you know, hopefully that won't ever happen. But it's a really good question because it's, it's, people are always really scared, I think of, of the

PJ Ellis (33:07)

Yeah.

Katey Martin (33:16)

kids being on devices and then I think I was on my Atari 800 for about 12 hours a day and I do think that sometimes we forget that we all had those little what were they donkey Kongs and oh yeah oh oh Andy left and right yeah the Daly Thompson's decathlon

PJ Ellis (33:23)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

Andy Dawson (33:32)

I found my

PJ Ellis (33:35)

And all it was was left and right, left and right all day. Yeah.

Andy Dawson (33:39)

with barrels.

Yeah, so you've got your fingers from that.

PJ Ellis (33:42)

Daley Thompson.

Yeah, all the Kempston joystick. That seems a bit weird. Yeah, I was going to say that's definitely going off the video. My dad called me out the other day because I was being less of tell me and more, you know, maybe I think with Blake, my boy. And I threw away a comment about me, you know, climbing trees as a kid. My dad said, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. If you lived...

Katey Martin (33:44)

Yeah? Yeah?

Andy Dawson (33:48)

do that face again PJ. Edit that out mate.

Katey Martin (33:50)

Ha ha ha!

Brilliant!

PJ Ellis (34:08)

Yeah, if you lived in a world today, you'd be upstairs playing all of those games and talking to your friends online because I was quite an awkward kid. And Katey. ⁓

Katey Martin (34:11)

Yeah. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (34:16)

only imagine the experience you've had over the last 30 odd years and the lives you've saved and all that. What an amazing thing to be able to have done. One thing I suspect, whether this is from your training or whether it comes to you naturally, and one thing I would love to be able to nail, if that's the right word when it comes to my kids, they live in this world where they don't know what they're doing. They've got AI, they've got computer games, they're all over the place in the sense of too much information maybe at times.

⁓ And one thing I see that is a response to that with my boy, especially sometimes he struggles to stay calm in situations where he feels a little bit under pressure. ⁓ Any advice in relation to how you've stayed calm in some of those situations?

Katey Martin (34:50)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, that's a really key point actually, I think, because a lot of our kids now we hear lot more about anxiety, I think, than we ever did. And I kind of think, why do we hear more about that? And I do wonder whether we just always were anxious in our own ways, but it just wasn't spoken about as much because when parents asked me about this, and I've just done some coaching actually this summer,

Andy Dawson (35:14)

Yeah.

Katey Martin (35:23)

⁓ with some young people. And that is the general thing is that the question that they wanted to have answered was why do I feel this mist come down whenever I need to really be at my best. So what I do is I talk them through what is happening inside their bodies, why that happens.

There's a brilliant book called The Chimp Paradox, Steve Peters. You can get Chimp Paradox for young people as well, which is brilliant if you're older and you just want a bit more simple, stupid. And I don't mean that in a condescending way, but we all have busy lives. So actually when I got the kids one for my son, was like, Ooh, this is a really good reference book. But when you talk them through and say, stop being hard on yourself.

You know, when you when you're feeling like this, it's because your body has gone into fight or flight, you've got chemicals coursing through, you've got adrenaline, you've got cortisol. That's why your brain freezes. What's important is teaching them how to get out of that fight or flight response. Because that's of course our prehistoric response that kept us alive. So as much as we've matured as humans our

neurological response to threat, it hasn't, it's the same because it's like, I going to live or am I going to die? So actually giving them coping mechanisms to get those hormones to dissipate is what is important. And so for some people it's breathing, you know, in through the nose, out through the mouth and regulating. What I always say is put your feet flat on the floor, your hands on your thighs, feel grounded and

breathe. But also think of a bit of music or get your headphones on and put on a bit of music that gets you back into your type two brain because they've gone into their type one brain and we need to get them back rooted into their type two brain. it might take five minutes, it might take 10, but the more they do it and the more they get used to getting into that sort of, right, okay, I know how this feels, I know what's happening to me.

I'm going to breathe, I'm going to listen to that bit of music that gets me in the zone and then they'll feel like they can think again. Yeah, so that's kind of sorry, a bit of a long-winded answer to it.

PJ Ellis (37:39)

I don't know, it's actually really quite

poignant and brilliant. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Andy Dawson (37:44)

Yeah, that's good.

Katey Martin (37:44)

And

some, sorry, I was just going to say again, because some kids, it helps them to label their brain, their type one brain. So, you know, their chimp brain, I say to them, it a name, any name, stupid name. So my son's was called Groobler. So he used to say, right, tell Groobler to do one. And so you actually name it and you actually talk to it. Well, you know, they can talk to it out loud if they want.

probably not advisable amongst their friends, because they're gruebly going away, but in the inner voice going, right, okay, I know what you are, I know what you're doing, now back off. Yeah.

Andy Dawson (38:18)

Yeah.

I, ⁓ sadly, yeah, I've heard a lot of Steve Peters, sadly he helps Liverpool Football Club, doesn't, doesn't make him a great person in my eyes. But a lot, a lot of people, sports people especially talk about having the chimp. That's the self doubt. And Alistair Cook, ex England cricket captain was very open about how he used to manage his chimp to perform. a couple of things for me, Katey, I've got one question to ask you in a second, but just

Katey Martin (38:28)

Brilliant.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (38:46)

I think we should ask you to tell us a little bit more about girls who dare considering that's what you're going to be doing. So tell us a little bit more about that.

Katey Martin (38:55)

So, we are, I mean, our skill set between three of us is lovely because it's, I mean, I've come from a very male-orientated career. So to have two women to work with is just brilliant. I mean, I must admit our meetings are just hilarious because it's just like, you should just chat, just chat, chat, chat. Like, you can't get word in edge ways. It's just brilliant.

And then we'll be like, we need to, we need to get through this agenda. But as a training team, we've got a pretty good, we pack a pretty good punch because all of the skills that Bex and I have are totally applicable to private industry. And I'd say, you know, quite often people say, well, I know how to negotiate. we're like, really. And it's coming at it from a very.

deep perspective of how to influence and persuade, but in a very ethical way. Because historically, particularly sales has been based in some quite sort of, I'm going to say manipulative techniques, and we don't endorse or agree with those in policing. We haven't used those for a long time in negotiations. So people say, Jedi mind tricks. And we're like, no, actually,

all our negotiations, whether it's with someone on a bridge or whether it's with someone who's got a knife to someone's throat, it's based in honesty and building honest relationships. So yeah, it's a really great thing to be able to work with Bex again. She's absolutely amazing. And Marie is just, she's a podcaster too. And she's, I call her the Holly Willoughby of the Girls Who Dare World. So she does all our branding, et cetera. And yeah.

It's great fun and we've got great stuff we want to do so if anyone needs any help with their teams, their senior teams, yeah, we do it.

PJ Ellis (40:51)

I

know Andy's face when I see it, he's thinking a few things there. I'm sure there'll be a message dropping into your inbox after, We've got lots of friends and businesses we know that could probably lend you or have some help from you guys. I love your branding, by the way. I think it's fantastic. It's lovely. Yeah, really, really.

Andy Dawson (40:55)

That's not the thing.

Katey Martin (41:06)

It's nice, isn't it? when

we were in Birmingham doing the bit for the services for education, the auditorium was really dark, it was all black. And so it just went, it really popped. We're like, oh, Sharon, thank you for, you know, painting this black for us. It's really worked with our brand. But yeah, it's, and I think the main thing is that we do, we are all inclusive. We're not just about girls, you know, on

We just have that angle where we're a female training team. We are the girls who dared, if you like, to get together. And we were met through LinkedIn. We met Marie through an algorithm on LinkedIn. So it's mad how LinkedIn sort of picks up and throws people together because we were sort liking similar posts.

Andy Dawson (41:53)

Yeah. And I think Chris Foss's book never split the difference, proves there's a market for the sort of stuff that you're doing as well.

Katey Martin (41:59)

absolutely. mean, is communication. It's everything, right? Everything, every business, it rises and falls on communication. Even in policing, we always say you get to the end, we do a debrief. The one thing that always comes up is the communication failures. So it's key for so much, you know, to be able to influence in a

in a positive way to be able to de-escalate any issues, any anger to be able to, yeah, it works across the board. So we work with young people, we work with any age, any type of people. And we do, there's quite a few different packages that we do as well. We've got conflict management training, we've got safety, travel risk safety training.

Quite often we get females saying, you know, how can I make myself safer? How do I feel safer when I'm walking around? So we've got quite a range of packages that we do.

Andy Dawson (42:59)

Great. So, my last, I'm just conscious of time, guess, my favor, my question. So, later on this afternoon, I'm going to meet the shadow minister for education, something else. But one of the things I want to do is try and persuade him to come on, on the podcast. You know, could be a bit of apathy there, could be a bit of fear there, or just might say he's not got enough time. So, could you arm me with a bit of an opening that I might be able to use, Katey?

Katey Martin (43:10)

ooo

Okay, so I'm sure you will have done your research to find out what makes him tick. Find out from everything you can through his LinkedIn and all the rest of it, what his interests are and what makes him tick. And just spend five to 10 minutes before you make your pitch, just talking to him and being interested to him, being curious.

because what will happen is you will start to hopefully get feelings of unity, if you can find areas of unity even better and get all of that out the way before you even put in your pitch because when we like people we're much more likely to go along with them. So to be able to influence and persuade you've got to be both warm and competent.

make him feel like, Andy's a nice guy, you know, this is a really great conversation. Make it all about him Andy, because guess what, people love to talk about themselves. And then when you do lay your pitch out, you're more likely to get a yes.

Andy Dawson (44:28)

Okay, well, when you get your invite to come to the drink reception, you better be there.

Katey Martin (44:31)

you

I will. ⁓

PJ Ellis (44:35)

Katey's

gonna send you her invoice for that as well, Andy, and rightly so. You mentioned the word unity there, Katey. No one will know this, but you've got a huge poster behind you saying unity. Why is that so important to you?

Katey Martin (44:41)

Yeah... Yeah...

Yeah.

So it's, it's unity is so important because if we can find areas of unity, you know, if we had longer to sit and chat, then I'd be so interested to hearing. mean, I feel like I've just gone blur about me, but I want to know about Andy. want to hear about PJ. And what's beautiful is when you do find shared areas of interest and it doesn't just have to be about the usual big hitters, you know, the footboards, clearly Andy, you're not a Liverpool fan. think I've established that.

But I'm married to Blackburn Rovers fans, someone's got to be. so areas of unity are great because once you find them, then that's where we go as humans. know, if you look at London, you get the little pockets of communities. That's because we like people who are like us. We feel less threatened by people that are like us. So seeking out those areas of unity, being curious.

It's just what it's all about for me. So yeah, it's very powerful when you find areas of unity.

PJ Ellis (45:47)

It really is, isn't it? One last one from me, and you could talk to me all day. could listen. You should do voiceovers, you know. I could listen to you all day. Yeah, man. Yeah. No, no, it's so cool. It's friendly. I don't know what you're doing here, but I'm with you, mate. I'm with you. You know, it's like, you know, we're best mates already. Imposter syndrome. I struggle with it. We'll always have. You're clearly backing yourself. You've had to back yourself, but sometimes you might have those sort of moments.

Katey Martin (45:54)

Really? Really? my god, I think I hate my voice.

PJ Ellis (46:14)

I feel that these young people are having those moments more and more, I must admit. And I'm sure you've spoke to loads of people that are having those moments. ⁓ How would you help someone believe in a better version of themselves when they do feel a little bit hopeless and a little bit stuck?

Katey Martin (46:17)

Yeah... Yeah...

Yeah.

Yeah, think imposter syndrome, it's so sad. can really inhibit, can really, you know, some really fantastic people can be almost held back because of their inner imposter syndrome. I don't know what, well, I do know what it is because our brains are wide for the negative. So firstly, I'll always say to people, you know, if you allow those thoughts to come through,

then it's because your brain is wider than negative. So we'll always think that.

it's really important to actually again, just stop that chimp in its tracks and just go, no, actually, and your inner dialogue needs to be stronger. Your inner dialogue saying, no, you're great. Do know what? You're all right. You've done okay. That needs to fight back. And yeah, we all have it. You know, all of us have it. I remember the first podcast I did, it was with Victoria Brown, Storyslurp. And she said,

I said, I'm really nervous. And she was like, why the hell are you nervous? And I was like, because my skill set is all about listening to people. And you flip this right on its head. And when you're asking me questions, all I want to do is go back and seek all of, I'm so interested in you, Victoria. I want to hear about you. I want to hear about you, Andy. want to hear about you, PJ. And she just went, Katey, no one's going to sell you.

When you leave policing, you've got to get out there and talk about yourself because no one else is going to. And I thought, yeah, do you know what? You're right. And that bit's really hard. But I think, I think it was Ricky Gervais that said, it's a beautiful thing in life when you realize that no one else knows what they're doing either. And I always, I always had not, probably said the quote wrong, but I always have that in the back of my mind because most people are.

Andy Dawson (48:08)

Mm-hmm.

Katey Martin (48:17)

I'm swear again, sorry, bullshitting their way through life, at two different degrees. But those that really make it are the ones that have that ability to listen to their inner voice going, yeah, back off, I'm all right, you know. And if we can just be kinder to each other and just have a bit of a laugh along the way, then I think we're doing all right,

PJ Ellis (48:36)

Wow, we call that in a broadcasting a hard end. I mean, that is a lovely way to round off a fantastic conversation. Can I just share a quick few takeaways with you, Katey, from this conversation? We'll all have our own, but, and if you don't mind, we're gonna start sharing these in like a knowledge bank on the website. And there's a long list, right? Your inner dialogue needs to be stronger. Brain is often wired to the negative, unity for the win.

Andy Dawson (48:36)

Okay.

Katey Martin (48:47)

Yes, yes.

again.

PJ Ellis (49:02)

When we like people, more likely to go with them. Find out what makes you tick. Tell 'groobler' to do one. Put your feet flat, hands on your thighs, breathe and ground yourself. We need to understand the world these kids are gonna be living in. Be curious, no one's going to sell you. The best conversations always have good conflict. Avoid I think and lean into the tell me why. Empathy times three, truth times one.

active listeners make better parents and friends. I mean, I could go on. The iceberg experience is certainly something I'm to be looking at, understand those waters below you, you know.

Katey Martin (49:36)

Yeah, it's brilliant.

Andy Dawson (49:39)

There's a couple for me

as well mate. I would say, tell me, explain to me, describe me. Ted, boys are getting Tedded tonight. That's for sure. then, yeah, I don't think just about get away with it maybe. And then say what you see, say what you hear.

Katey Martin (49:45)

Yeah, Ted.

Yes. They'll think they're watching the film and they'll be like woohoo!

Yeah. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (49:58)

You know what, I've just

realised, is that what TED stands for then? Tell me, explain, describe. wow. wow. You must have done a TED Talk, Katey, TEDx or something, surely. Come on. You need to.

Katey Martin (50:03)

Yeah, yeah, tell, explain, describe. Yeah, it's just a...

No, no,

⁓ I would be bloody petrified.

PJ Ellis (50:15)

You'd be bloody

brilliant. I did one many years ago. It was a brilliant experience. I spoke about the unconscious bias. It was like, woohoo, but good fun. Katey, you've been an absolute delight. I can't put that any other way. That was probably the most crassest word to describe that conversation we've just had, but thoroughly enjoyable. We wish you all the best in your retirement. I have no doubt our path's gonna cross again one way or another. I really do think that.

Katey Martin (50:20)

⁓ my... Wow!

I hope so.

PJ Ellis (50:40)

Katey Martin, thank you so much for joining on the Wit and Grit podcast. All the best, mate, and we'll talk to you soon.

Katey Martin (50:45)

Thank you. Cheers guys. Take care.