This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding you that your self worth is

made up of more than your job title.

Each week I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing, and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course, podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go!

Hey, welcome back to More Than Work everyone.

So, today my guest is someone I've met on the comedy circuit in London, but I

could have met him at his day job too.

It's Ravi Holy.

He's a vicar, a comedian, and he runs a non-religious

therapeutic program for adult

survivors of child abuse.

So we're gonna get into all of the subjects with him today.

So thanks for being here, Ravi.

Great to be here.

Great to see you again.

Yeah, you too.

So, um, where am I talking to you from today?

Huh?

Why?

If, if you remember that joke of mine.

Because, because I live in a village called Wye, is,

between Ashford and Canterbury.

So it's always really awkward when someone will asks me where I live.

So, did you grow up in London or where'd you grow up?

Uh, so I grew up in Cambridge.

and then what brought you to London?

So I moved to London when I was 18 to join, England's only

punk fringe theater company.

Nice.

Which was called Wet Paint Theater.

I was kind of supposed to be the kind of playing the lead role in the play

that they were gonna do touring Europe.

But unfortunately the company split up before, I think before

I'd even really done one rehearsal.

I think the guy who was running it had some issues.

And it all went a bit pear shaped.

So I, was then sort of in London without any particular reason to be there, but I

didn't really wanna go back to Cambridge, so I just sort of stayed in London.

Nice.

And then you were in a band, right?

You you post pictures every once in a while of you back in the day.

I wanted to be in a band.

You know, probably before I wanted to be in a punk fit company.

But I, I mean, because I was a kind of drug addict, uh, I'd never really got

it together to, to be in a proper band.

And so I actually only finally got into a band after I'd sort of, quit drugs

and alcohol, been through rehab, and in fact the, the band were all people I

met through rehab, or, or like, one of them was like one of my old mates who

had followed me into it to, to rehab.

But we, yeah, so the point is, we were, when we started out, we were

all like, recovering drug addicts and, and like my first couple of gigs were

at, conventions of Narcotics Anonymous before we then, started playing the job.

wow.

So did you, I mean, you were pretty young when you were already like in that, right.

And do you mind talking about that at all

not at all.

Not at

Okay.

So, yeah.

So you were pretty young when you were like started using right.

And just kind of got into that scene of, of drugs, I guess.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, in some, I mean, ironically, I was actually a bit of a late

starter, so I didn't really start drink.

I, I'd never tasted alcohol until I kind of went to boarding school at 13.

Um, and, so, and I only kind of, uh, smoked weed for the first time

when I was about 15, shortly before I was kicked out of boarding school.

But then I kind of, really after getting kicked out of school

and, and then home, I kind of.

Absolutely just do dove into the deep end of, so I was then kind of drinking a

lot and, and taking, lot, lots of drugs.

I mean, it was really only about a three year period, before I kind of

hit rock bottom and, found, found recovery a a and indeed God, which was

sort of pretty much the same event.

In fact, kind of God came first, followed by recovery about 30 seconds later.

But yeah, so I, I mean I, so I was nine, I was 19, uh, when I got sober.

And, and I'm like 37 years sober now, which is...

wow.

yeah, well, and it's, I mean, it's it, 'cause I was telling

someone that the other day.

And I kind of thought, I even sent, I was like, hang on, I can't be 37 years.

It must, I must, I must have, I must mean 27.

It can't be 37 years, but it, it is

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean things I, I know I'm having the same, I think we're probably a

similar age then where I'm kind of going, oh, 25 years ago and I go, wait, what?

Like, yeah.

'cause I was 19, 26 years ago, right.

And I go, how did that happen?

Like, how did it all that time go by?

It's, it's really extraordinary.

But good for you.

I mean, congrats on, well, you're 37.

Okay.

you're 10 years older.

I did the math there 'cause I was going with your other number, your 27, your

refactored number, but you like, um.

That's, I mean, that's extraordinary as far as just, doing that and, and

realizing at a young age, thankfully, because, uh, I mean, I, in, in my,

in my, um, family, I, I experienced a loss of my brother to, to, drugs and

Uh, did you?

Oh,

Uh, specifically fentanyl.

And so it's extraordinary, knowing when someone gets through that

and works through that because it's, it's really difficult.

And so you, you did that, you went to rehab and you got clean and you

also found, God, I mean, I know all the anonymous kind of programs have

that as, as part of the center, but, um, what did that mean for you?

Like, were you raised in a religious home at all, or was it brand new to you?

well, well, so, uh, I mean, I, I was, huh raised in a, well, a very weird home.

Um, so, uh, my mum was Catholic and quite devout.

My father was an atheist, having been, it, having been brought up a Hindu.

So I was raised Catholic, but it didn't really take, um, and, or maybe it did.

I, I mean, but certainly I, I sort of declared myself an atheist at 15.

I then, through kind of taking lots of drugs, kind of had various, meta,

spiritual supernatural experiences.

So I kind of thought, okay, well I think there is something, I was like,

not an atheist, but I was also like a long way from believing in any kind of

God in the, in the traditional sense.

Until I kind of hit this sort of rock bottom where I was like well,

I, you know, I could probably think, and I need some help here.

And I, there's, there's literally no one else I can ask for help because,

you know, I was estranged from my parents didn't have any other family.

Everyone I knew was a drug addict.

So I kind of prayed as a, as a kind of last resort and, you know,

felt that that prayer was answered.

'cause as I, the exact moment I sort of sent up this prayer, some, a friend

of mine who had joined one of the 12 step fellowships like nine months

before and had a go at, selling me on it, which I hadn't which I'd ignored.

He kind of walked through the door at that exact moment.

So for me, that was like, okay, well that's the prayer.

You know what I, the prayer is answered with clear information.

What I need to do is go to these meetings and actually do

what they do, what I'm told.

So I, you know, a lot of people who, who go to 12 Steps really struggle with

the kind of spiritual religious angle 'cause they're, they're kind of gamble.

Well, I'm only, my problem is alcohol.

I, I didn't ask for God to get involved.

Whereas I was the other way around that I sort of turned up there going, God's

told me to come here, what do I do?

So, that was, that was fine for me.

And I, and then I think over, over time I sort of found my way

back to Christianity, which sort of just, made, made sense to me.

I mean, hey, I don't, we're supposed to be talking about lots of stuff,

not, I, I mean, I'm not, I'm not here to, I don't, I have no desire to

be a televangelist, so I'm not, I'm not trying to convert your people.

I'm just telling you my story, you know, that's just what, what, what happened.

I, mean, so the the brand of Christianity that I then got

involved with was completely crazy.

As I kind of talk a bit about in my set, I dunno if I, I, I dunno

if you've seen my longer set where I go a bit more into that, but, I

effectively joined a cult, right?

And it, and I was in this very kind of crazy full on fundamentalist Pentecostal

church for, for several years, which I eventually kind of, escaped from.

And, then found my way in, into the Church of England, which is obviously

a much broader, more liberal, you know, more intell, intellectually rigorous.

Inclusive kind of community that, that, which is where I kind of naturally belong.

I think.

I mean, obviously we have our own conservative fundamentalist wing,

and I'm still probably at the kind of extreme, extreme left of even

the Church of England constituency.

But, I, I kind of, I'm at home here and

yeah.

So I mean, and I think it makes sense.

I mean, to go kind of dive deep into one place.

I, there are certain parts of Christianity that are, I don't know,

sects I guess, of Christianity that will find the people who need more at

a time and will be able to get them.

And I mean, I went through that in college like there was this Campus

Crusade for Christ, and I would go there and it was like, you're doing worship

songs and then you're doing bible study and you're all in, and like it becomes

to the point where you have all these friends so you can't possibly leave now.

And, um, I got kicked out of a Bible study actually that was in my own

home that I, I had to go to my room.

Because I, well, I, I write about this a little bit, so I still haven't

worked out how to make it like super funny to people other than me.

But basically, like we were doing the Bible study, I was working

quite a lot during college.

Like I had to work to go to school, right?

So I was working with full time, so I hadn't really read the whole

passage we were supposed to study and I said, well, I didn't have time.

I was being honest, I didn't have time.

And the, the woman, like the leader was like, well, you have to do this.

Like, if you're not gonna do this, you're not gonna be part of whatever.

And I said, well, I had to work, like, and I said, I needed money.

It's like books.

We had to buy books.

And she goes, um, you know what I do and I need money, I pray.

And I get a check for my parents every month.

And I said, well, I work and I get a check.

And I said, I get a check twice a month.

I go, so mine might be working better.

And that was it.

And so I, I went into my room while they finished bible study in the

living room, but I get it right.

Like, you, you find something.

And I, I've struggled with being like a Christian then an atheist and an agnostic.

And I don't know where I am right now.

I'm kind of agnostic ish, but it's interesting, I think to go from

an atheist to, to something else.

And, but now you're a vicar, so I want to hear.

Really, I mean, I was so thrilled the first time I met you.

Just cause I was so enthralled that you were vicar.

I don't know if you remember, it was kind of embarrassing to me.

I was like, oh hi.

I wanna talk to you.

Like I was very drawn to you because I thought it was cool.

And then I've seen you to other gigs and you

are cool, but

how did you become a vicar?

I mean, so when I was going to this church that I'm sort of

slightly unfairly calling a cult.

I mean, the church that I, that I went to for about five years was cult-like,

it wa it wasn't technically a cult, um, but it had a cultic aspect.

But, it was, and a bit like you said, 'cause in a way it

worked for me at the time.

I mean, it was a good place.

You know, lots of really great things happened there.

And I mean, the one thing you could never say about Pentecostals is that

they don't take their faith seriously.

I mean, they take it very seriously, right.

And, um, you, you know, it's like having discovered this to

me, you know, reality of God.

It's like, well, if this is real, then it's the most important

thing there is by definition.

And that, that remains the case, 35 years later.

Um, so I suppose for, there was a period of about 10 years where I was

doing, you know, jobs to pay the bills.

But I had, no real interest in what I was doing.

And, and, my passion and my passion was, God and the church and religion

and stuff, that's what, that's what actually turned me on and got me outta

bed in the morning sort of thing.

And then I think roundabout, as I was, I turned 30, was now

married, I met my wife at that.

The crazy church.

Um, and we kind of left, it was roundabout the time we got to get part of how and

why we got together was going, look, we both think this is crazy, let's move.

And, that's, that was sort of how we, how we ended leaving.

I was working in sales in the software business and, my boss was kind of, you

know, I was doing okay and my boss was like, all right, we need to talk about

your career path for the next 30 years.

And I, I was kind of like, hang on.

I didn't really mean to be here for as long as I've been here.

The thought that I would be doing this for another year is horrifying, let

alone the idea that this is my life.

So my wife and I sort of went off on this sort of do it yourself retreat.

We just went away for a weekend to a kind of, spa to kind of chill out and.

For me, it was a time of, reflection and, and prayer, kind of, seeking God's will

for what to do with the rest of my life.

And, and in some ways it was partly just because I was finding what I

was doing, very dissatisfying and, I was working long hours and didn't

really have any time for myself.

And so I was almost, in the first few days on this, retreat, I was

almost just thinking, well, I, whatever I end up doing, I, I

want to get out of the rat race.

I, so I was almost thinking, well, maybe I'll just resign.

We'll move to the country and I'll just get a job as a postman or something so

I can just earn enough to live, but, actually have some time to enjoy life,

and, and then basically we ended up, meeting some fellow, there was some people

staying in the same place who were two vicar's wives on a post-Christmas holiday.

And then when we got talking to them and I was, they just, they, they

went, look, you should be a vicar.

You're clearly a natural.

And it, and again, it was just that kind of, the fact that we'd gone

away and prayed, and then we find ourselves sitting there with these two

women going, you should be a vicar,

you know, was like a personal message.

And, and, and I mean, having, but it's having, but I mean, I've, I've just

been really happy for the last 23 years.

I, I love what I do.

It, it, yeah.

It's just perfectly suited to my personality type, my, my

skills, my strengths, my values.

I, I kind of love what I do,

I mean.

I, i'm self-diagnosed with ADHD, right?

But I, I kind of get bored very quickly.

And, the worst thing I could imagine would be just doing the

same thing all day, every day.

Whether that was in a factory or being a gp.

I mean, I always just think sitting in a, an office, just having people come in

and moaning about their back or whatever, every 10 minutes would drive me crazy.

Whereas as a vicar, I just kept to do all sorts.

I mean, and, and the thing is, it's a job where you kind of can just

write your own job description.

I mean, there's, there's certain things you have to do, but then, you can choose

to focus on the things that you are good at, that turn you on as long as

you've got other people to cover it.

I do my Sunday services, I do weddings, I do funerals, and that,

I mean, doing comedy, which I've been doing for about 10 years has,

has benefited my ministry so much.

The average vicar, in the sort of sermon slot, just as sort of like this sort

of five minutes, very earnest sort of going on about, whereas I, I just

basically do a tailor made standup routine for that couple and they love it.

Their family and friends love it, it really works.

Equally I love doing funerals.

Because it's, you're in a position where you can really, really help a

family when they really, really need it.

You know, you do a good funeral for, for, for a family.

They, they love you till the day you die.

You really kind of feel that you are doing some good in the world.

And, that's a great thing.

But, also, like having been in a band, being a comic, being a sort of natural

performer, show off exhibitionist, whatever it is, we are, when I go in

to do assemblies in the local schools, I'm not really interested in going

in and telling the story of the Good Samaritan, because it's not really

appropriate in our culture, quite frankly.

Over the last few years, I have kind of gone in as Elvis, as Freddie Mercury and

as Elton John and performed the songs of those artists in end of year assemblies.

And the, the great thing about little kids is that they, they

just still, I mean, these are still children that believe in Santa.

So, they're all going home going, oh, mum, Elvis pre came

and sung our assembly today.

They think I'm the real Elvis, the real Freddie, even

though those people are dead.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's great.

And I think it's, I mean, you've talked about what you like about it, but I guess

like is there anything that maybe you perceived that a vicar did before you were

one that is like a lot different I guess.

Because, well, my mom for example, she watches a lot of these, um.

these murder mysteries about small towns in England.

'Cause I told her, like, I, I sent the photo when we were in the fi uh, when

we got through in that one competition together, you and I, I sent her the photo

and I said, oh, it's like, here's me, me and Vicar, and she was like, oh, cool.

And she was, and she was like saying how she loves the vicars in those

shows, and so I, I, think she now has an idea of what a vicar does.

But is there something that kind of surprised you about your job?

That's a really good question.

I, I mean, I think in some ways I almost didn't really know what the job involved

when I, first said I wanted to do it.

I mean, I, I suppose, I had an idea of what a church leader did

from, , at that point more of my church experience was in this kind of

Pentecostal world or the Baptist world.

Maybe I'd been to an Anglican church for a little while, but I, so I suppose I saw it

more as, which is like leading services, preaching, teaching pastoral care, which

is, it is all, it is all those things.

Um, I mean, I think the,

the, and again, we're gonna get quite technical in sort of theological

language, but I mean, I think there's two different ways of doing church.

So like, the American system, And, and kind of Pentecostal and Baptist churches

in this country are, the technical term is they're gathered churches.

So they, they're basically a community that services itself and

doesn't really necessarily connect with their local community at all.

So like for example, if I was a Pentecostal minister in Luton, I would

only take the weddings and funerals of members of that congregation.

Whereas, the Church of England is, is the, is the established church of

the land and therefore any person who lives in the community has a legal

right to have their wedding or funeral or baptism there, whether they've

ever been to church before or not.

So I am regularly doing, all those services for people that have

had no contact with the church before and may not have any.

It's a completely different role.

It's a, it's a totally different style of church and a whole a different mentality.

In a sense, I don't differentiate between as it were, the chaplain

to the whole community I live in, not just the Christians within it.

Very different to my, uh, view of church before.

But, i, I've been sort of, trained in that model by the Church of England

and by the vicar who trained me.

And then that's now how I think it should be.

So all the people I've trained, I've trained in the same kind of way.

That's great.

And then, how did you start to do comedy?

It really was by accident that I got into it.

'cause I mean, when I was first, came outta rehab and so

in the eighties, I was a punk.

I didn't have a job and I just got unemployment benefit.

I never had a job, didn't want one.

And then once I'd sort of.

been through rehab and, realized that I needed to be a respectable

citizen and was then thinking about okay, I mean that's when I, I I

wanted to kind of get into acting.

I think I'd already, and I'd already had that sort of failed

attempt at getting into acting, which, which I mentioned earlier.

I signed up for this Inpro class run by a company called Theatresports, which

was the original Inpro group that did, "Whose Line is it Anyway?" and stuff.

And I was like, there were about, I don't know 20 or 30 people doing

this course and everyone bar me.

And one other girl was a, a working comic.

I was like about the only non-standup

Mm-hmm.

And funnily enough, one of the people in that group was Eddie Izzard, who obviously

now is one of the biggest comedians that.

So I was actually, in doing workshops with them before, this was, before

they were as famous as they are now.

And I can remember at the time thinking, wow, I mean acting fine.

Singing in a band, fine.

But, there is no way I would ever want to get up on the stage and try

and make people laugh and face the horror of them not laughing at me.

Uh, so it was, it never really, it was not something I'd ever

had any desire to do at all.

But I think after I got ordained and started preaching, I mean most, preachers

will kind of try and stick a joke in here and there to kind of get people.

Yeah.

Limbered up, so I was kind of consciously trying to do that, and

I found, you know, that I kind of quite liked the feedback of laughter.

That feeling of, you say something funny and people laugh.

It's a, if you are an addict personality and all of that, it's kind

of, it's quite a nice affirmation.

So I, I was sort of consciously and, for more, healthy motives; it

also, that it, it, engages people.

If, if, if when you

get in the pulpit, you're kind of making people laugh a bit and they're going,

oh, oh, this, this is, this guy's great.

Then they'll listen to what else you've got to say, rather than

them going, oh, I'll just switch.

I'll just take the next 10 minutes to switch off and think about something else.

So I, I was doing that.

And then I saw this advert in our trade press, The Church Times where it was

talk, it wasn't an advert, it was an article talking about a comedian that

was running a workshop for priests...

hmm.

uh, or for preachers, uh, to, to learn comedy techniques to make

their sermons more interesting.

So I was, I was just, well, that, that's got my name on it.

I'm really interested in that.

So I rang the guy up and said, I'd like to sign up for the course.

So he is a vicar's son who is a, practicing Christian and a comedian, and

he runs, a comedy course for, for anyone.

He does kind of corporate stuff of, for public, anyone who wants to use

comedy techniques and public speaking.

And his vicar had said you should do one specifically for Vicars.

Which he did.

So he, his name's Bentley Browning and his organization's called Comedy Novices.

And, uh, but he did this this, new thing called "Comedy for Clergy".

And, uh, I was like, well, I really wanna do this.

He said, okay, well, you basically do the course.

During the course, you'll kind of work on a routine and at the end of it, we do

a little gig in a local pub and everyone gets up and does like a five minute spot.

And, and I was going, well look, I'm happy to do the course, but there is

no way that I am going to do that.

But actually once I did the course and realized that, most comedians

are actually delivering a routine that they have written, rehearsed

and refined, rather than just being that funny off the, off the cuff.

I was like, oh, right, okay, well I think I could probably do that.

And, I thought I'd, I, I said I'd have a go.

I actually only did his taster the workshop because, I think

in some ways, I think I picked things up quite quickly, right.

Mm-hmm.

and, in terms of sort of basic public speaking, that was already

something I'd been doing for years.

So I, I was just like, oh, right, I see I, all I need to do is act my, so I went

back to the sort of follow up workshop,

having worked on a routine, which I was, gonna, try out.

And, um, Bentley was going, oh look, I've got BBC London here.

And they, 'cause they're doing a feature on, Comedy for Clergy and,

uh, they want someone to get up and do their routine, but everyone's

said they don't wanna do it.

Would, would you be up for that?

And I was like, yeah, alright.

Why, why not?

Let's, let's, let's do it.

And, and then so long story short, that piece then ended up being on

BBC London and like a week later.

But you know, the TV show and then that night Bentley and I got a call from

BBC One going, right, We've booked your tickets up to Media City in Manchester.

You're on the red sofa with Naga Munchetty tomorrow morning, which

was timed to coincide with the gig.

So like, the day that I did my first gig, I'd been, on TV before.

You know, I've been worrying about speaking to 20 people in a pub in

Islington and in I then I to sort of go and attempt to be funny on BBC one.

But, and so of course like loads of my mates came to that first gig.

And again, it was, I mean, I felt like a real rock star, 'cause when

I arrived at the gig as well, there was another TV crew there who were

kind of filming an interview with me before going on to do the gig.

So I, I was on a real high gig, went well, so then that was it.

I was addicted to doing comedy.

I mean, if that, if that first gig hadn't gone well, I'd have

probably done it again.

But,

Wow.

and in fact my, my, so that was my first gig.

The One Show then did a follow up piece on this.

They came down to Canterbury to film another, uh, and uh, that

was due to film, screen on a Thursday night a few months later.

And, and the day it was supposed to be going out, they rang me going, um, would

you actually be able to come into the studio tonight in addition to the, and,

and I was going, oh, I can't, I've got, like, I'm meeting a wedding couple this

afternoon, I'm doing a wedding tomorrow.

We've got the rehearsal tonight so I can't really make it.

And they were going, oh, that's a real shame.

'cause we've got the four Inbetweeners in the studio who were

there promoting their new film.

And we thought what would be fun would be to do a kind of

clerical comedy competition.

So we've got, we've already got a Catholic and a Methodist, and we wanted you to

be the Church of England vicar doing comedy, and the Inbetweeners can judge it.

So I'm a, I'm a massive Inbetweeners fan, so.

I just went, alright, I'll be there and I'll just negotiate with the couple

about changing the rehearsal time.

So, so my third gig was live on BBC one in front of 6 million people.

And, and I, I, I mean, it's like you supposed to work

your way up to being on telly, whereas I started off on telly and then it

basically just disappeared down into, I mean, I, I haven't actually done

a gig since, since my semi-final,

right.

Because I, I'm just not really chasing, I just have, I'm

just not chasing gigs anymore.

I, I mean, I've got a few in the diary where people have booked me, but

yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's super cool.

Um, I would say and yeah.

What a, what a career high right at the start.

That's amazing.

And and one thing I wanna just see if you wanna chat about, I mean,

you, you said too you like, have this, this run, this, program for

adult survivors of child abuse.

So do you wanna talk about what that is?

Yeah.

No, it's very, it's, it's very close to my heart.

So it's a, it's called Heal for Life and it began in Australia 25 years ago.

So all the people who kind of run it are and involved in it are survivors

of some form of childhood trauma or abuse, normally abuse, the themselves.

And, um, and I mean, again, that was part of why I sort of left the Pentecostal

church that, that I was in many years ago.

Not 'cause of any abuse there, but that it was, while attending there, after I'd

been off drugs a few years and started to do a bit of therapy, that kind of the

full scale of like stuff that had happened to me when I was a kid, bec either,

that I realized that things that I'd just accepted as normal were not normal

and, and were actually, criminal abuse.

But, but also things that I'd actually completely streamed out, dissociated,

sort of, unthawed and, and made themselves, apparent to me and, and

I was in like the worst possible environment to be dealing with that

stuff because it, this, this culture of Pentecostalism was so, denial based.

I'd be kind of talking about, oh, this, these things happened and,

and, and not just like random people in the congregation.

I mean, even sort of senior leaders there were saying to me things like, well,

maybe the devil's put these, maybe, are you sure these things actually happened?

Maybe the devil's put this idea in your mind to kind of, um, and then

going, and then anyway, even if it did happen, it is in the past, Whoever

is in Christ is a new creation.

Hallelujah.

And you just need to forgive the people who've done this to you and

all, all of this crazy, crazy, crazy toxic nonsense which was part of why I

got the hell out of that environment.

So I think then I, and then I spent a long time in therapy kind of working

through stuff and it was roundabout the time that one, one of my favorite

quotes ever is Freud said "that the aim of psychoanalysis is to convert neurotic

misery into the everyday unhappiness that everyone has to deal with", right?

And uh,

Yeah.

and so I as around about the point where I was getting thinking, yeah, I think

I am now no more messed up or miserable than everybody else is, and that was

about the time that I then felt this call to, to ordain ministry as well.

So I, I think when I was then sort of going off to train to be a vicar.

It was something I, I thought, well, one thing I would like to do

in my ministry is try and, but try and provide help for people who

are trying to come to terms with, childhood abuse, um, childhood trauma.

I, I I know what I wanted and needed and didn't get.

So I, I would love to be able to try and provide that for other people, but

had no idea, how I would ever do that.

I just kind of left that on the wishlist.

And then bizarrely when I, when I moved to the, the place I now live the people

that set this thing up in Australia, or the family of the people who set

this thing up in Australia, lived here, and it was, they were one of the first

couples I got to know when I moved here.

They were telling me about the work and

Mm-hmm.

asking if I would support it as vicar, not even knowing my kind of history.

It really felt like it was handed to me on a plate.

So I, I kind of went out to Australia to sort of do the course for myself and it

was, it was transformative for, for me.

And then, uh, the following year we sort of set it up here.

So we, what we, what we actually do is we, we run like these sort of residentials

like two or three times a year as it's like a five day program, which is

designed to just give people a kind of super safe environment where they've got

the time and the space to actually kind of get into stuff much more than they

could in a sort of standard 15 minute.

Therapy session.

And it's really, it's really powerful.

And interestingly that when it was set up in Australia, it was gently christian, so

it was slightly more Christian than the 12 step groups we were talking about earlier.

So yeah, it would sort of say, look, those of us who set this up are Christians and

we believe that having a relationship with God or a higher power, as you understand

that will be beneficial in your, your recovery or your healing journey.

And so we built, we have a little session each day, which just gives you

a bit of time and space to explore that.

But you know, we're not heavy about it.

And, and that's how it was in Australia and it seemed to work there, but soon

as we started trying to run it here in exactly the same way; The minute we

said anything about God, people would just get really triggered and angry

and go, well, I didn't come to be.

Yeah.

And like my colleagues were sort of going, oh, you know what's going on?

No, no one ever did this in Australia.

And it was like, well, yeah, that's 'cause they're Australia, isn't it?

The national motto of Australia, as you may know is, "she'll

be all right mate, whatever."

They're the most laid people, but, and the British are sort of much

more uptight and touchy, so what it, ironically, and a sort of, zen move, I,

the vicar said, look, we need to make this program completely non-religious

because the, we are just putting barriers.

The actual work we do is just therapeutic.

It makes no more difference what you do or don't believe about God.

Whether you voted remain or, or leave.

It's completely irrelevant, so it, it's really, since at least

2014, it is operated as an entirely secular therapeutic program.

Yeah.

Cool.

That's awesome work.

That you're doing.

I recently had my, my first academic article published on this subject.

I did a kind of reflection on ministry and was saying that, so effectively

I have these three strings to, my, my core thing is being a vicar.

And then I do the comedy on the one hand, the therapy on the other.

The comedy and therapy could, in one sense seem like very different,

although of course comedy is a form of therapy and, whatever.

But actually both of them flow quite naturally out of my core role.

I mean, so comedy is just like preaching with more jokes.

And, obviously the therapy is an overflow of pastoral work.

So it's, I kind of feel that I, I've ended up where I have these three

things that I do that to the naked eye might seem, how do they fit together?

But they all fit together really well, and I think each one

makes me better at the other.

So it's this kind of constantly, it's a positive feedback loop and I

think it also keeps me sane as well.

And that this was like the main focus of the, the article I wrote because

there's actually a very high rate of burnout and breakdown among clergy.

I mean, huge.

So there, there was a sort of thing recently, I think like at least a

third of clergy in the Church of England are, are on antidepressants.

'cause the job so demanding.

Lots of my colleagues have sort of had periods of time off work due to mental

health issues directly caused by just being in the kind of stuff they're

having to deal with in the parish.

And, and sometimes I've had to deal with all the same stuff, but I have

these two ways of kind of, you know, getting outside that and, and, having

more positive experiences, so Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, I mean, that is a good way to like kind of sum it up too 'cause

they do seem unrelated, but then, then, you do see how the things feed.

I mean, it's like cross-functional skills in a way in my world, you know?

So,

yeah.

Yeah.

A hundred

One thing, ravi, that I like to ask everybody, so I had do

these fun five questions that

are my last questions for everyone.

But before that, I like to just ask, do you have any advice or mantra

that you'd like to share with people?

I just think for me, My fundamental value is honesty with self and others,

which which probably is again, you know, almost word for word out of

kind of, you know, AA AA 12 step.

But I mean that, you know, for me that is what kind of life and therapy and

religion at its best are all about.

I mean, just to, know you know, to, you know, be the best human being that you

can Um, which involves you know, your blind spots, your areas for growth are,

you know, which involve rigorous honesty with yourself, with other you know.

I mean, That's really what motivates me and what I

Mm-hmm.

you, you know, what to inculcate

That's, yeah, it's a good way to be.

It's easier to keep track of everything when you're honest

with everyone, you know.

Okay, so the last set of questions are the fun five.

The first question, what's the oldest t-shirt you have and still wear?

Well if, if, if, if the words and still wear so, um, I like one of

my fa when I was in my, my band, which was called God's Government.

and this was a, so this was after I'd found God, but before

I was technically a Christian.

But um, I dunno if you know the clothing company boy who were on the Kings

Road, I mean, they were associated with the Sex Pistols and it was all

part of that sort of punk that came out of the punk scene of the which was,

and and there was a lot of boy stuff around in, in the kind of eighties.

And it was just a black t-shirt with God Squad in massive letters

in white, uh, with the boy logo.

And I, I mean, I just loved that t-shirt Um, And it, back in the day when I

was kind of thin and pretty like, and it was the eighties, like I had

all, all my t-shirts had the That was the that was the kind of look right.

You, you know, I mean I would, you know, you would not wanna see me in a sleeve

of t-shirt and, But I love this t-shirt so much that I, and, and then I think

my ex-girlfriend cut the collar off it, not out, not in some post breakup rage,

but just 'cause I'd lent it to her.

And for some reason she decided it would look better with the

collar off, which it didn't.

So it's,

right.

this, it's like, and, but it's this sort of, I just couldn't bear to throw it away.

So I've still got it in a drawer and I, I mean if I try, if I try and put

it on, it kind of come, you know, it kind comes up to about there on me.

It's like, but yeah, so I can, but, and I have vaguely thought about

trying to get a mate of mine who's a tailor to kind of sew the core patch

of it onto another black t-shirt.

In fact, I am gonna do that.

That's something I'm, I'm gonna do 'cause I need

Yeah.

Um, other um, a couple of t-shirts by the clothing company, ring spun.

I dunno if you know them.

They used to do these ring spun all stars where they would have, they're

kind of done, like, they're really good quality t-shirts modeled on a kind

of American baseball shirt, but with, and they just have pictures of like.

Either actors or rock stars or other cultural icons on.

And I've got one which has got Travis Bickle on the and, And

one that's got, again, de Niro.

It's like from from Goodfellas, it's De Niro and Ray Liotta and Joe

Pesci you know, all and, and Blink.

I know both those t-shirts I got, I don't know, 25 years ago.

Um, But they just look, still look brand new 'cause they're

Awesome.

Those sound cool.

And i, yeah, and de Niro's a legend for sure.

So, the next one, if every day was really Groundhog's Day, like, it was basically,

I mean, I i, started this podcast

during lockdown, so it was really Groundhog's Day.

Then we know if you were living in

Groundhog's Day, it would drive you nuts.

You would not want that routine.

But, um, what

song would you have your alarm set to play every morning?

Uh, well, I, um, the first song occurred to me I can see

Clearly Now by Jimmy Cliff.

Uh, it's not actually originally by him.

I can't remember who did it originally, but he, his version of it I Uh, And

it's just a really, do you know the song "I can see clearly now, the rain..."?

Yeah.

it's a very warm, fuzzy song.

It's just, I mean, if I was gonna have to listen to something every

day that feels like something that would be a good thing to wake up to

Nice.

Yeah, that, no, that's a really, it's a pretty song and like you

could just let it play for as long as you want it, want it to, um, cool.

And then, and a positive thing to wake up to in the morning.

I think that's one thing, like I was reading about.

Just how, like what you can do to, start to like work on anxiety and one thing

was like stop picking up your phone first thing in the morning or so, like

hearing that song would be way better than reading the New York Times in the morning.

Right.

All right, the next one.

Coffee or tea or neither?

coffee, no question.

Coffee, coffee, coffee.

Same.

And then can you think of a time that you like laughed so hard, you

cried, or just something that cracks you up when you think of it?

Just what, what gets you?

There's a sort of serious aspect to this, but, at one point where some stuff , like

stuff around my own abuse, was, coming and I was in a really dark, a place,

so dark I could hardly see straight.

And, as my kind of attempt to, I mean, I'm a big movie buff anyway,

and I go at the cinema a lot, but, uh, so I went to see the film.

You Don't Mess With The Zhan, with Adam Sandler, who is one

of my guilty pleasures in life.

Like, so, so a lot of my more sophisticated loving friends just

do not understand, you know, why I like Adam Sandler, but I love Adam

Sandler and I, don't think I have ever laughed so much as, as when I

watch "You Don't Mess with the Zohan".

And in some ways it was not it, it wasn't necessarily because the film was so funny.

It was because I was, I just needed some kind of release so much.

But you know, that film absolutely, you know, Delivered it.

And I'm eternally grateful to Adam Sandler for, for that.

And again, it slightly annoys me when people are down on him because, you know,

like he's so, I mean, a lot of people like his stuff, you know, he's a very,

very, very, very talented comedian.

yeah, Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So, I did think about this question.

I mean, obviously as a vicar, you know, you'd you'd expect me to say Jesus, but I,

and I, I had a bit, the same issue with, we did a, a series in kind of informal

service that we have at my church a few years back where, the series was, people

who inspire you and a, a E each week.

A different person kind of did it.

I mean, I do more than I did like two where everyone else did one.

I'm the vicar, um,

and.

In some ways I just to be, I suppose, you know, I've still got this punk rock

mentality of like not wanting to do the same thing as everyone else does.

And I wanna be a bit different.

So, the two that I did of people who inspire me, one was my dog, right?

And but with a genuine point in that, in terms of like mindfulness, being in the

enjoying what's actually going on around you rather than projecting or worrying

and not just doing what you want rather than worrying about what you think you

should do or what other people think.

I mean, my dog is totally inspirational in that, as I'm sure

you know, as animals in general are.

So that's My dog, who is actually sitting next to me.

From asleep as as as we speak.

And the other, you know, when I did the next one, the other one was me, myself.

and not, not in a kind of, no, but not in a, not in a

narcissistic, or egotistical way.

But actually, speaking as a survivor of, you know, extreme abuse of like,

the fact that I have survived all the things that have me, i, i in my

life, ended up being able to turn them into positive things so I'm, you

know, now able to help other people.

I'm, I'm really proud of myself for doing that.

I mean, obviously I, I'm not, I don't, I'm opposite of a self-made man,

because my ability to do that came first of all from, from, I was completely

spiritually bankrupt when I turned to God.

So everything I have has been given to me.

I've had a lot of help from a lot of people, whether that's in 12 step

groups or the church or, you know, elsewhere, my wife, you know whatever.

But I, I think nonetheless, I kind of want to acknowledge, the kind of brave survivor

in me and in and in every other survivor.

In, all the people who come and do the kind of program that I run.

'cause they're all survivors.

And we have, we have this song that we, um, play, which is called "My

Brave Heart" uh, which was written survivor of a music called Karen

Taylor-Good which is just honoring, the indomitable human spirit that is able

to transcend any amount of horror and kind of come fighting, smiling

still, not be beaten down, not be corrupted, still be yeah.

So that's my, that's my answer.

Who inspires me?

Human beings.

Yeah.

No, that's, that's awesome.

I, think it's good.

Well, Ravi, it's been awesome to have you here.

So, one thing I, wanna ask is like, where do you want people to look you up?

Do you want people,

you know, just where can they find you if they wanna just learn more?

Well, I, yeah, I mean, I have an Instagram account, which

is RevRaviHoly (@revraviholy).

But I'm, because I'm old, I, I'm much more a creature of Facebook

than, than Instagram, so I don't really put much on Instagram.

But, on Facebook or you know, just google me.

Ravi, holy.

Hopefully I will be, uh, gigging, you know.

I kind of tend to advertise gigs on my sort of Facebook page.

So Yeah.

And my church in Wye.

We're open Sundays, so if people want to come along, they'd be very welcome.

Or if people have been touched by the concept of the Heal For Life weeks,

then, you know, that's something else.

They can just Google me or Heal for Life and, find out about that.

Cool.

Well, thanks so much for being on more than Work, ravi.

It was really great to talk to you.

Well, thank you for having me.

great to talk to you.

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M-A-F-F-I-A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I'm so grateful.

You can find him online by searching Rob, M-E-T-K-E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at at More Than Work Pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at Rabiah Comedy (@RabiahComedy) on TikTok.

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.