One factor that must
absolutely be present is safety.
My students are not going to learn well at all.
If they come into the classroom
and they're thinking, am I safe with miss Kuhns?
Is she going to yell at me?
Is she going to get mad at me. Is she going to.
They're not going to learn.
It's that amygdala, that part of our brain that wants to keep us
safe is constantly scanning for danger, danger, danger.
Ruth Anna, welcome to the podcast.
You've been an educator for a while, and there's a
there's a lot of different areas.
We could go with this, but I want to drill in on a couple things.
Specifically in the field of education that that you're involved with.
But before we get too specific, how many years have you been an educator?
This is year 17 year 17. Okay. Okay.
So so one of the areas when we had had a phone call before this
and we were talking about, okay, what are the things we can discuss?
You mentioned a term I had never heard before.
Neurodivergence.
So can you tell us what that even is, and why does having
an understanding of that term apply or matter to us, and how does that affect
how we view education? Sure.
That is such a great question.
So neurodivergence is kind of an umbrella term.
It's a big word right now in education.
And it's
it's the umbrella term for learning differences.
So you think autistic students, dyslexic students.
So. Yeah, it's a it's a big word in education right now.
So if you think of your student who learns in a typical way.
So let's say you know, you as a teacher are lecturing and they're taking notes.
They're listening to your lectures.
They're reading and discovering information that’s your neurotypical
student. Okay.
So not all of our students learn in the same way, and we know that.
But I think in the past, we've kind of treated education as a one size fits all.
And it's it's not that.
So your neurodivergent student is your student
who learns in ways other than what are typical.
And so as educators, you know,
if we have classes of 22 or 24 students,
you are not going to just have neurotypical learners.
And so how can we accommodate our students?
Who are struggling?
So that's that's what
I mean when I talk about neurodivergent students
and the that, that makes a lot of sense.
And I can immediately see why understanding
this is actually a pretty big deal.
Or it is important if we want to provide,
a reasonable education for these children.
Wow. So this is a
area that you have experience in, like you work with neurodivergent.
So earlier in my, in my teaching career,
I didn't you know, really understand these things.
And so I'm looking back at almost two decades
of being in the classroom and seeing, you know,
there were a lot of students that got missed in my classroom
because I just simply didn't understand what they needed.
And I know sometimes in our private schools,
we don't always have all the resources that we need.
And so I think we're doing better at thinking about how can we
how can we use our resources well, but there's still a long way to go.
So I currently am pursuing a Bachelor
of Education in special education from Liberty University.
And part of the reason that,
I was interested in that
major is because I really wanted to learn more about diverse learners.
Like, how can I service all of my students?
How can I be responsible for all of them?
And I realized, like as a homeroom teacher, you can't do it all by yourself.
You need lots of support.
And so, Yeah, I've.
I've seen how having more understanding can really be empowering, because
if we're not understanding the learning difference, well,
we can actually end up, doing more harm to our students. And.
Yeah, that's not what we want to.
That's not what we want to do.
Yeah.
That does make sense, though, because there is so much variety
within between different humans.
Let's just say very broadly speaking. Right.
So it would kind of make sense.
Like we learn in different ways. Right.
But I, I see the, the challenge here because if you're
okay, you have your classroom, you have 20 students.
It's it would be so easy for someone to get missed in that process.
Yeah, right.
Yeah. Wow.
This is this is, this is a challenge.
I think some of this is to just the complexity of the human brain.
Is that an element that comes in here where we don't fully understand
all the different dynamics that are involved, is how does that play into this?
Absolutely, yes.
So let's let's talk about dyslexia for a little bit.
So there's been a lot of myths around dyslexia.
I'm thinking I should have checked the research on this,
but it's about 20% of your students that it's going to affect.
20 percent?
That's a lot more than I thought. Yes. Yes.
So as we take apart the term a little bit dis,
you know, having difficulty with lexia language.
So it is actually a, It is a language processing disorder.
Okay.
So for example, dyslexic students are trying to use
a different part of their brain to read than what your neurotypical students will.
And so understanding that can be can be really helpful.
Well, just acknowledging the complexities here.
I mean, we're talking the human brain, right?
So. Right.
But again, some of the challenges, probably because we don't fully understand
all of these things. right? Yes.
So if you have your neurotypical student who's learning to read,
they're actually using the back left
part of their brain, like, behind your ear.
Okay. So that's that's typical.
A dyslexic student tends to use more of the right front part.
And so contrary to
myths is that it's a vision problem.
My dyslexic students see backwards.
Well, they don't actually see backwards what they what they will tend to do
as a coping skill, as though they will tend to memorize word shapes.
Because hearing sounds, hearing differences
in sounds is so complicated.
So if I give you the word sand right now,
you can tell me how many sounds are in sand, right?
And so, you know, we have s a n d.
Sand.
They might not actually hear four sounds.
They may only hear three s a nd.
And so part of retraining their brain
is training them how to listen for differences in sound.
Yeah. Okay.
This is starting to make a lot more sense.
Wow. Because again if you have a one size fits all though, someone like that
just you just kind of get lost in the shuffle. Right.
So typically what will happen with our students who have dyslexia.
They they learn how to cope in these situations.
So you know, first grade, second grade, they can kind of
get by by memorizing word shapes.
They hit third grade.
And third grade is a lot more about reading to learn.
Not learning to read.
And so it's kind of they sort of hit a magic wall.
I would say, where you're not going to be able to get by just by memorizing shapes.
And so some of my job,
as a learning support tutor
is assisting them through that, literally
helping them to rewire their brain so they can learn to read.
Oh that's that's kind of wild.
That's actually kind of fantastic though, that enough research has been done
that we have at least this level of understanding
compared to, I don't know, 100 years ago or something.
Wow, that's that's kind of It is.
It is very fascinating.
So, this is not a vision problem students aren't seeing backwards.
but my my my job is, is to help them, develop skills
to learn to read well.
So would you let me do a little experiment?
Yes, of course. Okay.
So one of the things if I don't understand dyslexia, well
I can end up doing some pretty harmful things.
So you're a good reader, right?
I think so. Yeah. Okay.
Well, I'm wondering if you would read this sentence for me.
Okay.
It's not difficult, and I'm sure you've seen all these words before.
Okay.
Tell me what you're seeing.
You're a good reader Reagan!
That's wild!
You need to try harder.
So what word are you seeing?
are those complete words or are they.
Or are they, split apart?
It’s a complete sentence.
You've seen these words many times.
So start here.
Oh, this this.
Okay. I'm trying to find the pattern here.
Gotcha, keep going.
This Actual.
Actual, look you missed a word.
This is.
This is actually.
Quite...
Quite easy to decode.
Oh, wow. Were you working hard?
Yeah, but, like, in a different way.
Right?
Now, if I would have shown you the sentence, if I would have shown it to you
like this, I thought I had it on the back there like you normally see it.
You would have been able to read it. No problem.
This is easy to decode, but because.
Because you're adding the layers,
like almost like the levels, my brain immediately said, this is scrambled.
Yes. It's not, but it's.
That's wild.
So you see, this gives you a little bit of an experience,
what it's like to try to read as a dyslexic student.
What do you do when the letters move around?
You know, and or, you know, if I'm not used to the letters
being, Right, in layers, I guess, layers levels?
anyways. That's wild.
Yeah. So you take you take a lack of understanding into this.
If you're one of my reading students,
you know, I say, Reagan, you need to try harder.
You can look at the word.
Well You are looking at the word you are trying, and then you have the whole thing.
Well, Reagan, you need to study this with me at recess.
And you're like, oh, no, I was already working so hard.
Now I need to stay in at recess.
Okay.
And things just build and then the behavior
starts happening, and we want to try to manage the behavior.
And there's all these layers
to just not simply understanding what's actually going on.
So that's an example of how I can cause trauma
by lack of understanding,
Well and that does seem to to tie in very closely
with another one that I want to have you describe a bit,
because when we were on the phone before
we were talking through like okay what are we going to cover on the podcast.
Use a term I never heard before. Another one had never heard.
And that was academic trauma.
And I I'm already seeing how I okay, I think I'm seeing how this might start
going together with what you were just saying.
So yeah.
Tell me about what what is academic trauma.
Define that for us. Yes.
Okay.
So let's take the let's take the phrase apart a little bit.
So academic obviously has to do with school learning.
And trauma is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days.
But I'm just going to try to define it a little bit for how I'm using it
in this conversation.
So trauma can be a life threatening event, like a car accident.
Maybe you almost died.
You had you lost a parent.
You witnessed a shooting, abuse, neglect,
like all of those things I would call big T trauma.
They're life threatening events.
And the person is overwhelmed.
Does not feel resourced as to, how to deal with a situation.
So feeling overwhelmed, feeling helpless.
Those are often, symptoms of trauma.
So now if you have, you know, a one case where,
I'm just going to say you yelled at your daughter, okay?
She's probably not going to develop trauma over that, but,
you know, you yell at your daughter every day.
You know, it becomes verbally abusive.
It becomes an overwhelming situation where your daughter is going to feel helpless.
Okay.
So so we think about trauma.
We we we know that by itself, the event by itself
might not be threatening, but it was impactful.
And one of the things that we're learning about trauma
is how it imprints on our nervous system.
Okay.
So let's say with our students now, let's say they have dyslexia
or you know, they're autistic and they're misunderstood.
They come to school day after day after day after day.
They're misunderstood.
That creates this academic trauma for them.
Does that make sense? It it really does.
Would you be able to get it a bit practical?
Yes. Like, I don't know if maybe you have some examples if you can share those.
I, wow. I'm already seen,
already thinking of some examples in my, my own mind as well.
But anyways, yes.
Go ahead. Yes.
Let me share a story with you.
I was working with a with a boy in middle school.
He was dyslexic, and he had ADHD,
and he was on my caseload.
And so I began working with him, and I knew that he had transferred
to our school,
in the, you know, recent past.
And we're about two weeks into the school year and
he made a comment to me and I said,
that must have been difficult.
And that validation of his experience opened it up for him.
And he began talking about how traumatic his past school had been.
And I sat there and listened to him,
and I said, Johnny, that must have been really hard.
And he said, it was.
But that began,
the process of of a friendship and a real connection between us.
And one of the things that I told him, I said,
you know, at our current school,
we are going to do the best
that we can to accommodate the way your brain works.
We want to make this a safe environment for you to learn.
We're not going to do this perfectly, but that's our goal.
And you know, students are not they're not concerned about us,
having every, or they're not concerned about every interaction being perfect.
They want to be affirmed, I should say.
They need to be affirmed and validated.
So as he was opening up to me about his past story,
he very vividly described his experience of depression.
So think of this academic trauma that he's facing.
This is middle school.
This is a middle school boy.
This is a seventh grader.
And I asked him about it a little bit and he said,
well, depression
lasts all the way home from school.
It lasts the whole way through the weekend.
It lasts
all through the holidays.
And I just felt really sad about that.
Like,
we don't want our teens to be having these experiences of depression
and and my, my goal is not to shame his teachers or his former school.
But my point is, can we have some understanding around,
you know, his his learning differences
and try to accommodate that and create a safe environment?
Because for someone who's experienced trauma,
One factor that must
absolutely be present is safety.
My students are not going to learn well at all.
If they come into the classroom
and they're thinking, am I safe with miss Kuhns?
Is she going to yell at me?
Is she going to get mad at me. Is she going to.
They're not going to learn.
It's that amygdala, that part of our brain that wants to keep us
safe is constantly scanning for danger, danger, danger.
Okay.
So my goal as a tutor, when I get a new student who doesn't know me at all,
is to establish that relationship of rapport
and safety.
I think safety is a really key piece there.
Yeah. Right.
I wonder.
things, things like academic trauma
could potentially be much more widespread than we realize.
You know.
It's because it's just like, I don't know, you
just kind of go through the day to day and, you know what I mean?
It's just getting your routines and then suddenly, like, you're
mentioning this particular case,
and then you start peeling back the curtain a bit and seeing how
this student is actually feeling like, whoa, wait a minute.
That is not good.
You know, and you got to kind of wonder how many more cases that are like that
that we never hear about.
I'm speculating.
Obviously, I'm not in the field of education necessarily, but.
Right.
So I think one thing to think about often
at our private schools, especially if it's a small private school,
they may not necessarily have like a resource room
or a learning support, room where you're where
your student is able to get some one on one tutoring.
So back to my middle school or some of the ways that we accommodated him,
he caffeine would help his ADHD.
And so he’d eat coffee beans before he came to my classroom.
And, you know, it was it was wonderful.
Because I'd get, like, this smell of, like, fresh
ground coffee.
So it was a positive for both of us.
I was not where I expected that to go.
I'm just saying, Yeah. Possible solution.
Eat some coffee beans.
But, hey, like, I mean, that's.
It sounds like it worked for him.
He was like, a little bit of caffeine.
Just helps me to focus, you know?
And then on days when he would say, I just can't focus today.
Okay.
I would try to just really back off and we would just kind of we would slowmo
it or just really go gently.
At it.
The other thing for him is that reading black
text on a white page was distracting for him.
And so sometimes overlays will help.
Again, this is going to vary with your students.
But for him I would give him like a green overlay.
And it would take away
that contrast was a little easier on his eyes to actually read.
Oh okay I get that.
That makes sense. Yeah.
So those are just a couple of practical things that I, that I'm thinking about.
The story with, with him.
I felt like had a beautiful ending
the year that he
so I, I worked with him for a year and at the end of that year,
his mom wrote me this beautiful note,
and she was thanking me for what I had done for her son.
And her last line in the note was, thank you for helping him heal.
And that that just, like, causes me to worship
like the Lord can take, you know,
my small understanding of these things,
and, and make it into something really redemptive and restorative.
And so that was a real moment of worship for me.
so we were looking at some interesting pieces here
with neurodivergent academic trauma.
You know especially the theme of safety or.
Yeah.
But yeah safety like and students need to feel safe
when they're with their teacher etc..
And a piece I'm thinking about is education can be an amazing experience,
right?
So like, I was homeschooled, and then went on to Bible school college.
Honestly, I had a great experience through all of that.
Yeah, I really did.
But I know not everybody has that, and it's kind of easy to take for granted.
Yeah, I was fine.
Like, why is it, you know, you just miss it.
Right.
So there are many people don't have that experience.
And I guess the question I have is, so how can we create
better educational experiences for our children?
Which is an enormous question, and I'm sure we won't answer
all of that right here now, because every situation is different.
But at least give us some pieces to work with.
sure. Yes. That is such a good question.
Yeah. Okay.
There's, there's a lot of ways we could go with this.
But since we're talking around the academic trauma, the learning
difference piece, I'm just I'm going to kind of address that.
So how can we create better experiences?
So I think especially
if we are in a small school and we don't have,
all the resources that that are needed.
I think we need to we need to think creatively.
Well, maybe get to more of that in our next episode when we talk about burnout.
But I think, you know,
there's a lot on homeroom teachers and,
you know, let's say that they're teaching multiple grades,
and have, you know, a really heavy workload.
They don't have a lot of support.
They're doing just multiple,
you know, pieces with their students, teaching all the math,
reading Bible, all of that.
I think sometimes our teachers are so overloaded that they don't have
there's not enough brain space left to to develop this mindset of curiosity,
like, well, what is dyslexia, for example?
How can I accommodate that?
Well, my student with, ADHD is doing this,
and you know what's actually going on with with that behavior.
But I think our teachers
are so overloaded, there's not always that space to think about it.
So I think we we need to think about
how we can support our, our teachers better.
So, yeah, cultivate a mindset of curiosity.
You know, I'm curious about or I'm curious
about what that might mean.
Because behavior is always a language.
So the mindset of curiosity is huge.
I think doing some research, seeking to understand,
what what would it be
like to, you know, just like the example I gave you there with dyslexia?
Well, that that helps us understand a little bit
what it's like to be in their shoes.
I was actually, I have some friends that I just,
I asked some questions, to them, just to see what they would have to say
from the parent perspective.
And, I have a friend who they have some adopted children.
And in one conversation, I sensed that she was
having some frustration around.
The whole thing of, like, trying to advocate
for her child, but she wasn't feeling understood by the teachers.
And so I asked her a little bit about that.
I said, so what can we do as educators to make it easier
for you as parents to advocate for your children and
she said, Ruth Anna,
I don't think anyone has ever asked me that question.
And I thought, wow.
Then this it showed me how this conversation is so important.
So It's really important, as
an educator to have a heart of compassion for our students, that they do feel that
I know we don't we don't always, respond in the right ways, okay.
But they can feel if you have a heart of compassion.
Also like having a heart posture of humility.
So when a parent comes to me, they are this is their child.
They know how this child works.
Like being being able to hear them.
And, you know, sometimes they have suggestions
for how how we can actually help this child thrive.
Okay.
And I know, on the other hand, sometimes they are so stressed
and so in the moment that they're just surviving.
So compassion. Humility.
Fostering a classroom atmosphere that feels safe.
And then
validation and I find validation for parents who are dealing with children
from hard places is really key too, because sometimes they need to hear
from another source, like, thank you for everything you are doing for your child.
And so I think if we can develop this,
this team relationship where I'm working with the parents, they're working with me.
It's not me against them or them against me.
Almost.
It seems like you're using terminology that's collaborative
synergetic.
And so forth.
But it really this sense of there's almost like a community element as well.
Right?
Instead of just like I just kind of
doing your thing and you're doing your thing and so forth.
Right.
There's another piece that I'm thinking about,
I'm thinking about with this conversation right now.
And this kind of comes back to the education one size fits all.
So let's say that you have a school whose policy is,
okay, well, if you are failing,
if you have a failing grade in any subject, that means that
that disqualifies you from, let's say, going on a field trip.
Okay.
So for certain students who may actually need
that motivation, that can be okay.
Let's say you have a student who's dealing with a lot of trauma.
And like their brain is just kind of maxed to say, well, you're failing.
You can't go on the field trip.
I think it's just a really hurtful response.
Or when parents hear like, well,
we can't bend the rules for your child.
That's the opposite of compassion
and humility and understanding.
That sounds like,
dangerous.
Dangerous or difficult territory to navigate.
Yeah. What you're describing there.
Yeah. You know. Yes.
There's a thread in that though, that that stands out to me.
And that's the compassion side of things.
Right. Like,
are we doing these things ultimately from a spirit of compassion.
Right. Right. Yeah.
You're giving us a lot to think about in this episode.
Education is, you know, fairly complex.
There's lots of opinions and different models and ways of doing things.
Of course, we'll never cover everything on this podcast, but,
kind of tying together the whole package right of what we've done.
What is one practical thing that a listener can take from this and,
and take at least one step in the right direction when it comes
to education, whatever their role may be in their community.
Oh one thing.
Yeah. Well you can give us more if you like.
I think be curious,
be a lifetime time learning.
Be a.
Oh let me say that again.
Be a life long learner.
Let's see if I can get that alliteration there.
I love learning about new things.
And so, you know, in this case, it may mean learning differences.
It doesn't it doesn't take a lot to just, you know, learn a little bit,
about how you can help children who learn differently.
So be curious, be compassionate,
have a stance of humility.
And ultimately it means,
staying connected with the Lord, too, because we are we're human.
And that's a good thing.
We do. We have our limitations.
And, you know, there are days where where it's really stressful.
There's a lot on our plate.
And I think in that case, it can be okay to say, you know what, Lord,
I trust today that your grace is big enough to cover the gaps.
Again that thread
that keeps coming up through this episode is the curiosity and the compassion.
These are the things that, that yeah that's that's really good.
Wow. I feel like I learned a lot on this one.
There's a lot to think about here.
And I appreciate you taking the time to share on this, because,
you know, these topics can be a bit complex and difficult to to,
I don't know, work through.
And. Yeah, I just appreciate you being willing to do that.
Is there anything else you would like to leave us as we wrap this episode up?
Thank you so much for inviting me on.
I've just been delighted to be able to talk
about some of these things that I’m really passionate about.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this episode with Ruth Anna.
If you found this interesting, you should check out this episode we did
a number of years ago with Kyle Stoltzfus on the topic of higher education.
You can find that linked in the description down below.
And of course, all our content is on our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.
Thanks again and we'll see you in the next episode.
I think so. Yeah. Okay.
Well, I'm wondering if you would read this sentence for me.
Okay.
It's not difficult, and I'm sure you've seen all these words before.
Okay.
Tell me what you're seeing.
You're a good reader Reagan!
That's wild!
You need to try harder.
So what word are you seeing?
are those complete words or are they.
Or are they, split apart?
It’s a complete sentence.
You've seen these words many times.
So start here.