Eric Part 2 for 2024

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 58 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Eric: well, one of the things I hear

[00:00:09] so often is, I'll start dating when it feels comfortable or I'll go for a career advancement when it feels comfortable. I'll go back to school, when I feel ready. That's not how it works. You'll never feel those things. When you go back to school and you've done it for a while, then you'll feel ready when you've dated somebody half a dozen times or more.

[00:00:34] Then you'll feel comfortable dating that person, right. When you've publicly spoken over and over and over, then you will be ready to do it. And so if you're waiting until you're ready,

[00:00:50] you're waiting your entire life. P Supers, let's start with a question. What were you doing on the 28th of November, 2020? I can tell you what I was doing in the late afternoon.

[00:01:02] Ross: I was chatting to Dr. Eric Goodman, anxiety specialist and author, about his book, Your Anxiety Beast and You, A Compassionate Guide to Living in an Increasingly Anxious World. And that episode was recorded in an echoey room in our rented apartment in Malaga.

[00:01:19] We're revisiting part two of that conversation today. Partly because Eric speaks about anxiety in such a human and relatable way, so it's useful for us all to check in with his wisdom.

[00:01:30] and also because Eric has written another book called The Mindful Freakout, a rescue manual for being at your best when life is at its worst. having him back on the show to talk about that book over the next couple of months.

[00:01:46] We start with my review, find out what the toughest animal on the planet is, and talk about the human superpower of mental time travel. you'll also find out how we can teach our anxiety, which often has an unhelpful stance of [00:02:00] better safe than sorry. we finish with an insight into the illustrations in the book By our dear and much missed friend, Louise Gardner. Your Actante and my Actante.

[00:02:10] It's a joy to hear Eric reflect on the process of working with Lou. Now, for PeopleSoup, Hi! Hola! Welcome to the community! We're an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science. I'm recording this new intro in a hotel in Madrid.

[00:02:50] I was working here yesterday with some great leaders at Diageo.

[00:02:54] To make the most of this great city, we decided to extend our time by a couple of days. The last few weeks have been hectic, Peasoopers, with a conference in Granada and work trips to Birmingham, Liverpool, London and Newcastle. So we're enjoying a couple of relaxing days here before returning home.

[00:03:13] Tonight, we're off to the first night of a musical called El Novio de Madrid. So, for now, get a brew on and have a listen to Anxiety the Remix with the wonderful Eric Goodman.

[00:03:33] I can't hold back any longer. Eric. Let's dive in. So I've got a little introduction. So I've had a look on Amazon and some reviews. Let's just give you some headline reviews and I'll give you my review. So one of the best books on anxiety in existence, and then someone else wrote anxiety as part of life.

[00:03:53] And this book is a big help in dealing with it. My review says, brilliant hats off Eric. I got so much out of this, [00:04:00] reading it as an adult. I also wish I'd had it as a teenager,

[00:04:04] Eric: me too. Me too.

[00:04:05] Ross: I love the way it took me on a journey through that normalizing and understanding my beast and why it howls.

[00:04:15] And then the way you took me through exercises and insights. Blending theory and different approaches. It's really practical, useful, relatable, and fun. And it really guided me through things that can really make a difference in my life. And I, as I've intimated as my listeners will know I'm quite anxious chap and I was quite an anxious child.

[00:04:41] And if the book's not enough and it is. But the illustrations by Luis, I Superbowl really brings some of the key concepts to life. And before I shut up and let you speak, I'd just like to share one quote from the book with our listeners, just to really set the scene. If I may, if you're using your anxiety is howling as a cue to boldly, take an anxious journey into the unknown.

[00:05:06] Then you can venture forth towards a more meaningful life. If you choose to avoid those uncertain opportunities that your beast misperceives as threats and it can leave you as the band pink Floyd says, comfortably numb.

[00:05:21] I love always getting love, getting musical references. And so, kudos for that too. So Eric, how would you introduce this book to someone?

[00:05:30] Who's the toughest animal on the planet

[00:05:30] Eric: so I can tell you how I tend to do that with my clients at workshops and things like that. I, I start with a question. Who's the toughest animal on the plant and. You know, people will say a lion, a lot of people who say rhinoceros, I guess those must be pretty, pretty tough creatures.

[00:05:50] some people say gorillas, and you know, ultimately those are all far off the Mark, right? There is one [00:06:00] animal on this planet that is by far the toughest animal on that is us. We humans are by far the toughest animal. Now, if we tend to take a step back and we ask ourselves, you know, what is it about us, right.

[00:06:16] So all animals they've developed some way to give them an advantage in order to survive. so gorillas are strong. Cheetahs are fast. Porcupines got the spikes. Eels can shoot out that electricity. Right? All, all animals have come up with something to give them an advantage.

[00:06:39] Well, look at us. We're not strong. We're not fast. We're a pretty awkward species, right? we don't have thick fur, right? We don't have a hard shell. We we're a pretty unlikely species. And so you say, all right, well, it's the brain, right? It's our brain. That's our thing we developed our brain is our survival thing.

[00:06:58] The human superpower of mental time travel

[00:06:58] Eric: And that's true, but there's something about the brain and that's, we developed this ability to mentally time travel, right. Dr. Paul Gilbert talks about the, the gazelle on the, Serengeti that gets attacked by the lion and barely escapes.

[00:07:15] Well, Gets back to its own herd and it's lapping up the water, eating the grass, you know, it's for all is forgiven, all is forgotten and it lives to, to eat, you know, grass, lap up water and other day. But the human. That gets attacked by the lion barely escapes. They're going to be in the past. Oh my God.

[00:07:37] I almost got attacked by a lion. Can you imagine how awful that would have been if it would've, you know, got me in, what, what would those teeth, what would that have felt like? And. Then they time traveled to the future. More importantly, what do I do tomorrow? If there's two lions, do I bring a rock? Do I bring a stick?

[00:07:57] Do I bring other people? Maybe I should stay away [00:08:00] from places that are infested with lions to begin with. Right. and that's it. That's our superpower. That's our advantage that we mentally time travel. But another way of looking at that is we worry, worry is our thing, having this, this brain that worries in the super complex sort of way, that's our thing.

[00:08:25] And so all of this nonsense out there about being anxiety free. Right. all the books that promise you anxiety free in six easy steps. You know, it's all marketing gimmicks. It's not real. We are anxious, we humans. And so I think it's important to accept that that's kind of our thing. And if that's our thing, How do we have the best life that we can?

[00:08:58] If we treat our anxiety, like it's our enemy, like it's a demon, our tormentor, well then we're going to be living our lives with a demon and a tormentor in our head. But if we understand that our anxiety's neither demon nor tormentor, but it's a bodyguard. Our anxiety is something that's always working to try to help us, but it just is not designed for the world that it suddenly finds us in.

[00:09:32] And so it's misperceiving threats all the time. So, we want to be able to have as good a relationship with our inner companion as we can, because it's going to be with us for life. Right? There is no becoming anxiety free and, and, you know, I, I hope, I'm not the first one to tell that to the P-Soupers out there.

[00:09:53] but anxiety free is not real. We certainly can have an low anxiety moments. [00:10:00] But anxiety is going to be part of our lives. And so if we can think about it as our glitchy inner bodyguard, then we can focus on, giving it the best home in our nervous system that we can. So for drinking five energy drinks a day, Our anxiety is going to be living in a far more hair-trigger environment.

[00:10:25] if we're not sleeping, if we're not exercising, if we're not taking care of ourselves. So we want to take care of ourselves where we can, we want to make space for anxiety when it shows up so that we hold it compassionately. You know, sometimes I talk about hold your, anxiety. Like you would hold a crying newborn baby.

[00:10:46] No, hold it gently. Don't squeeze it. Don't try to get rid of it. Just hold it gently. Just soften your muscles and allow it to cry. It'll stop at some point. Just allow it to, to cry, hold it gently. And so I think when we're able to do that, have the best relationship with it. We can, then we can focus on teaching it.

[00:11:09] Our anxiety can learn

[00:11:09] Eric: Where we can. So that's the one thing I think that, might be missing from some of the act stuff that I think is, is, is important is that our anxiety can learn things. It learns things all the time. So if you're nervous about giving a talk at a party or giving a talk at a, at a meeting, And you avoid it.

[00:11:30] Well, , you've just taught your anxiety, that it's dangerous. You've reinforced that. And the next time around, it's going to remember that, but if you go and you do it and you do it again, you do it again and you do it again. You're going to teach him and anxiety can learn so many things. another metaphor that I use is it's like, if you adopt a shelter dog, That you know, has learned all kinds of bad habits.

[00:11:56] When you can teach it all kinds of things, you can teach it to bark less. You can teach it [00:12:00] to, use the bathroom outside. Not inside. You can teach it not to bite people. You can teach all those things, but you're never going to teach it to sit at the table, dining room table, and eat with a fork and a knife and anxiety.

[00:12:13] Better safe than sorry mentality

[00:12:13] Eric: You can teach it a lot. It's never going to learn it perfectly. So that's where you need things like ACT and Compassion Focused Therapy, because anxiety is never going away. And it's never going to stop misperceiving things as dangerous because it works on a better safe than sorry mentality. So we want to just have the best relationship with we can.

[00:12:39] And then when we're feeling anxious, we want to bring soothing to ourselves. We want to hold it gently and not fall into this. Oh, there I go again. You know what a defective loser I am for feeling anxious. Right? We're all we're doing is ratcheting suffering

[00:12:59] on top of the anxiety.

[00:13:01] Ross: I got so much out of that, but one of the things was this that you can teach here, anxiety based. And I agree that that was that moment in the book was quite Oh yeah.

[00:13:13] And it's the examples you gave you. Right. That, that way they bring it to life. And the word that has been in my head, that you call. The anxiety beast. Is glitchy for me. I just, it's such a great word and it's, it's kind of quite humorous word for me, and it really helps me relate to my anxiety beast as it, as it glitchy, glitchy pal

[00:13:37] Eric: Yeah. And, and I, I truly believe that's what it is , it means well, but, you know,

[00:13:45] Ridiculous horror genre

[00:13:45] Eric: sometimes I'll, talk to my clients about just how ridiculous it is that we have a horror genre. Right in the sense that, it's utterly ridiculous that we've, [00:14:00] we so much of our entertainment is built up around things that are safe, that our brain misperceives as dangerous.

[00:14:08] And so if you think about what happens when you're watching a horror movie, And your adrenaline starts flowing because if it didn't, it wouldn't be a very good horror movie, but that is your brain is saying there is a threat in the room with you right here. Right now. Let me give you the energy. You need to fight it or to run and hide, And same thing with roller coasters. It's ridiculous that there is a thing called roller coasters out there. just from a logical standpoint, because we're doing some, something that is incredibly safe, but our nervous system is misinterpreting it as we're careening to our death. And so it's flooding us with adrenaline to, to get us to do something.

[00:14:56] Right. That's that's what's happening when we're riding a roller coaster, but that just shows you how glitchy it is. So a lot of our entertainment is based around kind of, , playing around with this

[00:15:08] glitch within our nervous system.

[00:15:10] Ross: now tell us why you called it. The anxiety beast. If you will.

[00:15:18] Beauty and the beast

[00:15:18] Eric: Well, so the, the reason why I call the anxiety, the beast, I already talked about, kind of how I wrote it, because I didn't like a lot of these metaphors that, that demonizing anxiety to why beast. Well, I think that anxiety is a lot like the beast in beauty and the beast. That it's loud.

[00:15:40] It's powerful. It smells bad, right? It, it, can be very offensive, you know, superficially. But it's got a heart of gold down deep and, and, you know, we learned halfway through the movie that the beast is actually the misguided hero. [00:16:00] And I think our anxiety is like that, I don't want to under, estimate how painful anxiety can be at times and how, how unpleasant it can be to, to be around anxiety.

[00:16:14] I'm very well aware of that. And so I, you know, I, I don't want people to think that I'm making light of, their suffering because anxiety can really feel uncomfortable. But beneath that, there is this mentality of protection of, of caring of wanting nothing more than to protect you from threats, but being completely misguided. A lot of the time, not all the time, because you know, if you're going around town wearing a mask right now, will your anxiety is doing the right thing at the right time. Most of the time in life, however anxiety is doing the right thing, trying to protect us at the wrong time in situations that are actually very safe.

[00:17:05] so we teach it where we can. We, we, we be friended so that we don't suffer every time it wakes up. And we, we try to have an adaptive rather than a

[00:17:17] maladaptive relationship with it.

[00:17:20] Ross: Thanks, Eric. And it's so great to hear you talk about this. I've actually been talking about this interview and your book with my dad. Who's 85. my mum died last year and he, so he's living on his own. He's in a pandemic he's isolating and we quite often talk about anxiety and I've started to share a little bit of.

[00:17:41] Just the beginning bits of the book with him and he's like, Oh, I'm going to read this. So, so I think there's never a time in life where you can say it's too late, not to take a different stance to your anxiety, beast, and learn more about it. Cause my dad's certainly well-liked.

[00:17:58] Eric: Well, I, I actually think [00:18:00] that, as we get older, it even, it takes on more of an importance because as we get older, life can get pretty scary. You know, when we're dealing with, illnesses, we're dealing with. You know, needing to go in for a painful and scary medical procedures and all, ultimately the thing anxiety, really wants to protect us from us is our own demise.

[00:18:25] again, we're the only animal with, with an anxiety system that anticipates that, the way we do, and we can really suffer. Far more than any other species on the planet, because we're aware of suffering, we're aware of, of, of pain that could happen. And we're certainly aware of are, are inevitable, are inevitable death.

[00:18:50] Ross: Yeah. And I've mentioned Louise, a couple of times, I just went to delve into what was it like working with Louise, because the way she's represented the beast is phenomenal. And she's, I think she's really captured the. The stance or the, the spirit of, of what you were writing in your words.

[00:19:10] Eric: Well, so my, my whole idea, what the illustrations was, if you're familiar with, with the ACT concept of diffusion, and that's where we kind of. We kind of notice our experience. So, Oh, I'm aware of feeling anxious rather than, Oh my God, I'm anxious. This is bad. Right. So I'm aware I'm feeling anxious today.

[00:19:30] Right? So, so I imagine the peace supers, I've learned all, all about that and what I wanted was a visual diffusion strategy. So, so what I ideally want for, for, for my own clients is that. When they're feeling anxious and they start to think that they're going to want to struggle with their anxiety.

[00:19:52] I want them to have the image in their mind of anxiety as being this well-meaning, [00:20:00] you know, cute little prehistoric, BA bodyguard, and to be able to kind of bring that image up so that it can help them to let go of that fight, to eradicate their anxiety, which typically serves to throw gasoline on the fire.

[00:20:19] And so, when Louise was recommended by a colleague and, you know, I didn't realize before I met her. That she's an expert in all these concepts. She's been studying these for, for, for years. And she knows this stuff really well. and so she and I, I I've said this a number of times, the absolute, my favorite part of writing this book was working with Louise, and just kind of bouncing ideas back and forth.

[00:20:54] And, I just thought that was so much fun. really, to see her take what was in my head and, and put it down on paper and, and come up with, ways to better represent the concept that I wanted to show graphically. And she would say, well, how about we try it like this? And since she understood the concepts, there was times where she was able to come up with, you know, just far better stuff.

[00:21:24] so, yeah,

[00:21:26] Louise

[00:21:27] was just a joy to work with.

[00:21:29] Ross: it's a beautiful partnership and the product is beautiful too. So thanks to you both.

[00:21:36] Eric: It was a lot of fun to make. And again, my hope is that it can help people to have a more adaptive relationship with their anxiety into, I suppose really the, the kind of goes back to, this notion that anxiety is. Pathological [00:22:00] and that there is some secret way to become anxiety free in life.

[00:22:08] the, ultimately if that can help people to understand that when you're feeling anxious, you're not failing at something. That your body is doing a natural thing that it's meant to do. And understanding that our anxiety is not designed for now, it's designed for back then. And so if people can let go of this notion that

[00:22:34] they need to keep trying these different tricks to become anxiety free, you know, as this permanent thing. And instead, just focus on developing a much better relationship with their anxiety. teach it where you can, soothe it adaptively where you can and bring it with you rather than say, well, one of the things I hear

[00:22:59] so often is, I'll start dating when it feels comfortable or I'll go for a career advancement when it feels comfortable. I'll go back to school, when I feel ready. That's not how it works. You'll never feel those things. When you go back to school and you've done it for a while, then you'll feel ready when you've dated somebody half a dozen times or more.

[00:23:24] Then you'll feel comfortable dating that person, right. When you've publicly spoken over and over and over, then you will be ready to do it. And so if you're waiting until you're ready,

[00:23:39] you're waiting your entire life.

[00:23:42] Ross: I couldn't agree more. It's so it's so wonderful. The way you describe it. Thank you. Now, Eric, I like to ask my guests a rather odd question. And that is if you had a song that could announce your arrival into a room, whether it's a virtual room or a real room for the next few weeks, not forever [00:24:00] for the next few weeks, what might that song be for you?

[00:24:04] Eric: Well, I'd say that's a, it's a great question. I would probably say

[00:24:09] time by pink Floyd. Yeah.

[00:24:12] Are you familiar with that one

[00:24:14] Ross: I think so. Yes, I can't hum it, but I think I do know

[00:24:18] it.

[00:24:19] Eric: taking away the moments that bring on the Dole day, your fritter and waste your hours in offhand way. It kind of represents, I think, uh, what we were just talking about. And that is kind of not waiting to move on. With what's important to you in life. and song is about how quickly time goes.

[00:24:43] And if you, uh, you know, there's lyrics and then one day you find 10 years of God behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. Life goes very quickly, um, and you should get older. You really. Realize how quickly, how quickly it goes. And so things, it, if it feels like anxiety has been holding you're back, now's the time to begin to, move forward with living the kind of life that, that you want to live, you know, with the pandemic limitations, of course, But not to wait for some magical time when everything feels safe and, and all right, in order to, you know, whether it's dating or friendships or, reaching out to people you haven't spoken with in a long time, now's the time to do that.

[00:25:40] And that's what that song in my mind represents. Now. I'm assuming that's what it represents. maybe someone somewhere who's, you know, more of a pink Floyd of fishy nada will say, no, it actually represents something dark and sinister. Um, but, represents

[00:25:57] to me.

[00:25:58] Ross: Thank you.

[00:25:59] Takeaway

[00:25:59] Ross: [00:26:00] And. Eric Mike, you have, or you could wait for the piece. It was just to encapsulate some of what you've shared with us. So generously today,

[00:26:09] Eric: well, yeah, I would say, just say something you could try today, right? For, for all the, all the peace supers out there, just when you're noticing that you're feeling anxious next time you notice it rather than, Seeing that as your enemy and tightening up, embracing against it, hold that gently.

[00:26:30] Just don't try to relax. Don't try to make anything go away, but hold it the way you would hold a newborn baby. And again, when a newborn baby is crying. That can be pretty aversive. It can be pretty unpleasant, but you still hold it softly. You still hold it with kindness. You're not shaking it. You're not, you're not throwing it out the window or anything like that.

[00:26:58] You're holding it gently. Try that with your experience. Just when you're feeling like you're suffering. Just stop, go. And soften. That's not the same thing as saying you have to relax, but, but hold your experience. Whatever that experience is, softly gently and with kindness and just see what happens.

[00:27:27] Don't take my word for it. Don't don't take the words of the books for it. Try it and just notice the difference when you activate that soothing, part of the brain versus the threat drive. Oh my God. I'm feeling anxious. I got to get rid of it or the drive part, you know, I'm going to do something to make myself anxiety free right now.

[00:27:51] Right. But hold it with soothing. Hold it with kindness. Gentleness softness.

[00:27:58] see what happens.

[00:27:59] Ross: QUITE [00:28:00] an invitation there for the peace supers. Thank you so much, Eric. Eric, I'm enormously grateful that you've joined me. Here on Thanksgiving weekend and given your time and your wisdom. So generously I've found it absolutely inspiring to hear you speak and to talk with you. And it's an genuine privilege.

[00:28:23] So thank you so much for coming on the show,

[00:28:26] Eric: Thank you, Ross. This has been a lot of fun

[00:28:29]

[00:28:30] Eric: Yeah. You know, I, never know if I'm talking too much or too little. Um, I know thefirst, one of these that I did with the first book, I just kind of answered very short, you know, I know this was, this was very new to me and now I just kind of talk, uh,

[00:28:48] Ross: Oh, I'm absolutely blown away. You've given me, give me goosebumps. So, um, that's a good sign. I think.

[00:28:55]