1 00:00:19,504 --> 00:00:22,654 Eddie: Welcome to day two of season one finale week. 2 00:00:23,164 --> 00:00:26,464 It's episode 41 of the web joy podcast. 3 00:00:26,914 --> 00:00:28,084 I'm your host Eddie. 4 00:00:28,384 --> 00:00:32,104 And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story. 5 00:00:32,434 --> 00:00:36,904 And what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 6 00:00:37,324 --> 00:00:41,374 I hope you enjoy today's episode an unpopular view on imposter 7 00:00:41,374 --> 00:00:43,174 syndrome with Curtis items. 8 00:00:47,213 --> 00:00:50,273 Welcome to another episode of Web Joy. 9 00:00:50,333 --> 00:00:53,033 I'm excited to have Curtis today here with us. 10 00:00:53,033 --> 00:00:55,073 Curtis, say hi to everyone listening. 11 00:00:55,223 --> 00:00:56,003 Curtis: Hey, how's it going? 12 00:00:56,008 --> 00:00:57,893 It's a pleasure to be on the podcast, Eddie. 13 00:00:57,898 --> 00:00:58,853 Thanks a lot for having me. 14 00:00:59,123 --> 00:00:59,813 Eddie: My pleasure. 15 00:01:00,443 --> 00:01:02,333 So everyone can kind of get to know you. 16 00:01:02,363 --> 00:01:05,243 Let's start off and just say, Hey, who are you? 17 00:01:05,273 --> 00:01:06,113 What do you do? 18 00:01:06,113 --> 00:01:06,893 Where do you work? 19 00:01:06,983 --> 00:01:08,753 Just kind of a, a brief intro of who you 20 00:01:08,753 --> 00:01:09,053 Curtis: are. 21 00:01:09,203 --> 00:01:09,563 Sure. 22 00:01:09,623 --> 00:01:09,893 Yeah. 23 00:01:09,893 --> 00:01:11,123 So I'm Curtis. 24 00:01:11,123 --> 00:01:13,193 I'm a software engineer. 25 00:01:13,993 --> 00:01:18,583 Near Washington DC in the United States, and I am a freelancer. 26 00:01:18,583 --> 00:01:23,593 Prior to freelancing, I started at Amazon Web Services, so I worked on a 27 00:01:23,593 --> 00:01:30,643 variety of services and products at a w s, both internal as well as external. 28 00:01:30,673 --> 00:01:34,593 And recently left my full-time commitment there, uh, to do freelancing. 29 00:01:34,593 --> 00:01:36,883 And this gave me a little bit more control over my time. 30 00:01:37,653 --> 00:01:39,063 As well as my project choices. 31 00:01:39,453 --> 00:01:42,543 So I've been working with Gum Road a little bit asynchronously. 32 00:01:42,543 --> 00:01:43,953 I hope we're good to talk about that later. 33 00:01:44,313 --> 00:01:48,603 And I also launched my first video course earlier this year, 34 00:01:48,663 --> 00:01:49,743 which I'm pretty excited about. 35 00:01:49,803 --> 00:01:51,273 Um, it's called Master the Code Review. 36 00:01:51,633 --> 00:01:54,573 And you know, in this, in this spirit of like building in public and transparency, 37 00:01:54,573 --> 00:01:56,433 I like to share some numbers around it. 38 00:01:56,763 --> 00:02:00,993 Over like 900 students have decided to take the course, and like 30 organizations 39 00:02:00,993 --> 00:02:04,203 have purchased the team license, and a few companies have actually added 40 00:02:04,203 --> 00:02:07,953 it to their new hire, like internal training, which I'm pretty pleased about. 41 00:02:08,253 --> 00:02:10,053 Um, it, it went better than I could have imagined. 42 00:02:10,413 --> 00:02:13,863 I'm currently writing a book on the same subject of code reviews as well. 43 00:02:14,183 --> 00:02:17,813 Eddie: It's cool to be able to sell something to individuals, but when 44 00:02:17,813 --> 00:02:21,323 you were able to sell something to a team, right, to a company like 45 00:02:21,323 --> 00:02:24,023 that really must feel, feel good. 46 00:02:24,023 --> 00:02:24,533 You know what I mean? 47 00:02:24,538 --> 00:02:25,643 Like you kind of just nailed 48 00:02:25,643 --> 00:02:25,793 Curtis: it. 49 00:02:26,183 --> 00:02:26,993 Yeah, absolutely. 50 00:02:26,993 --> 00:02:27,203 Yeah. 51 00:02:27,263 --> 00:02:30,053 When I was building, cause I was talking about it a lot on my social 52 00:02:30,058 --> 00:02:32,963 medias when I was building it and I had some people reach out to me and 53 00:02:32,963 --> 00:02:36,263 say, Hey, I might wanna purchase this for my organization or for my team. 54 00:02:36,653 --> 00:02:39,113 So I decided to make a, a team package option as well. 55 00:02:39,263 --> 00:02:42,203 Yeah, it's been good and I'm, that's why I'm excited to really get into this 56 00:02:42,203 --> 00:02:44,348 book and start writing it as, I love 57 00:02:44,348 --> 00:02:47,858 Eddie: that different people have different ways of learning, so having 58 00:02:47,858 --> 00:02:52,448 different modes of communicating those same truths is, is really exciting. 59 00:02:52,838 --> 00:02:53,738 Curtis: Yes, absolutely. 60 00:02:53,738 --> 00:02:53,918 Yep. 61 00:02:54,248 --> 00:02:54,488 How 62 00:02:54,488 --> 00:02:56,528 Eddie: did you kind of get into this, right? 63 00:02:56,528 --> 00:02:57,668 Like what. 64 00:02:58,688 --> 00:03:01,808 Kind of prompted you to say, Hey, I want to get into tech, I 65 00:03:01,808 --> 00:03:03,968 want a program start at Amazon. 66 00:03:03,968 --> 00:03:05,618 So like how did, yeah. 67 00:03:05,648 --> 00:03:07,388 That all kind of get started 68 00:03:07,388 --> 00:03:07,958 Curtis: for you. 69 00:03:08,138 --> 00:03:11,768 So as far as my journey into Tech Goes journey into software engineering, it's 70 00:03:11,768 --> 00:03:13,598 pretty, it was kind of straightforward. 71 00:03:13,778 --> 00:03:15,728 Wasn't really a career changer or anything like that. 72 00:03:15,728 --> 00:03:19,148 I studied computer engineering back in high school. 73 00:03:19,148 --> 00:03:20,618 I actually took some coding courses. 74 00:03:20,618 --> 00:03:21,698 We had some courses in. 75 00:03:22,748 --> 00:03:25,538 Had a really good teacher that taught it really well in high school. 76 00:03:25,868 --> 00:03:29,078 And when I got to university, I studied computer engineering. 77 00:03:29,318 --> 00:03:32,318 And so computer engineering is a little bit different from computer science 78 00:03:32,318 --> 00:03:36,728 in the sense that it focuses on the integration of hardware and software 79 00:03:37,058 --> 00:03:40,958 rather than strictly large scale software development or computer science. 80 00:03:41,408 --> 00:03:45,968 So I worked a lot with, um, hardware description languages, like fair log, 81 00:03:46,388 --> 00:03:48,218 uh, some embedded systems work as well. 82 00:03:48,218 --> 00:03:49,358 So writing code that would. 83 00:03:49,968 --> 00:03:54,378 Used on physical devices in the physical world, and it taught me a lot. 84 00:03:54,528 --> 00:03:57,108 But in the end, I ended up getting an internship with 85 00:03:57,108 --> 00:03:59,388 Amazon as a software engineer. 86 00:03:59,658 --> 00:04:04,038 And then after the internship I was hired full-time at Amazon as 87 00:04:04,038 --> 00:04:05,358 a software development engineer. 88 00:04:05,688 --> 00:04:08,748 So I stopped doing the hardware stuff and just completely shifted 89 00:04:08,748 --> 00:04:10,218 O over to the software side. 90 00:04:10,668 --> 00:04:11,538 Yeah, so that's my story. 91 00:04:11,928 --> 00:04:12,438 Eddie: Nice. 92 00:04:12,713 --> 00:04:17,213 Well, I've been following you on Twitter for a little while now, and I, I read 93 00:04:17,213 --> 00:04:21,863 an blog post that you talked about how like started at Amazon, but you 94 00:04:21,863 --> 00:04:25,583 really should have never gotten that job, and that's so intriguing to me. 95 00:04:25,583 --> 00:04:27,983 So I thought, you know, let's unpack that a little bit. 96 00:04:28,103 --> 00:04:29,723 How did that go about? 97 00:04:29,723 --> 00:04:31,073 How did you get that job? 98 00:04:31,073 --> 00:04:33,953 Why did you feel like you shouldn't have gotten that job? 99 00:04:33,953 --> 00:04:35,393 What did that all kind of look. 100 00:04:36,053 --> 00:04:36,473 Yeah, 101 00:04:36,593 --> 00:04:40,643 Curtis: so you're referring to an article I wrote on My Medium, which 102 00:04:40,643 --> 00:04:45,503 was about two years ago, and it was recently discovered probably a month ago. 103 00:04:45,503 --> 00:04:49,253 It was discovered by a business insider, and so I worked with Business Insider to 104 00:04:49,253 --> 00:04:54,383 get that republished on their platform to reach a wider variety of readers. 105 00:04:54,743 --> 00:04:58,643 And yeah, the title is, it was a very eye-catching, it was my first ever 106 00:04:58,643 --> 00:05:01,043 article actually, so like nice, very. 107 00:05:01,618 --> 00:05:05,758 Click baby, like over the top like headline because I didn't, I had no idea 108 00:05:05,758 --> 00:05:10,128 if anybody was gonna read this article, so it was like Amazon shouldn't have hired. 109 00:05:10,653 --> 00:05:16,163 Like, and I had like in my medium article I had in the quiet place, there's like a, 110 00:05:16,343 --> 00:05:19,784 an infamous scene where he's like, puts his finger over his mouth like, shh, like 111 00:05:19,789 --> 00:05:23,123 it's a secret or something, because I had no idea if anybody was gonna read this. 112 00:05:23,123 --> 00:05:26,063 And ended up like, I think over a hundred thousand people have 113 00:05:26,303 --> 00:05:29,183 like read it at the time, which was way more than I ever imagined. 114 00:05:29,693 --> 00:05:31,343 So I learned a little bit about marketing that day. 115 00:05:32,008 --> 00:05:36,053 , but . But yeah, so that art, in that article, I kind of describe how. 116 00:05:36,583 --> 00:05:39,733 My perspective around that, like why I shouldn't have gotten the job at Amazon. 117 00:05:39,733 --> 00:05:43,153 So any software engineer who's prepared for a FANG interview, 118 00:05:43,153 --> 00:05:46,873 including Amazon, knows that you have to study lead code questions, right? 119 00:05:46,878 --> 00:05:49,723 You have to go out, basically go on lead code, and for months and months 120 00:05:49,723 --> 00:05:52,483 you have to practice those coding challenges, those coding problems. 121 00:05:53,003 --> 00:05:56,933 And you need to study like da, the, the complex data structures, the heaps 122 00:05:56,933 --> 00:05:58,673 and the tries and the, and the graphs. 123 00:05:59,033 --> 00:06:02,783 And you have to be able to know and analyze some algorithms 124 00:06:02,783 --> 00:06:04,193 in time and space complexity. 125 00:06:04,613 --> 00:06:08,213 Now, a lot of these core concepts of data structures and algorithms, they're 126 00:06:08,213 --> 00:06:10,613 taught in computer science curriculums. 127 00:06:10,973 --> 00:06:14,233 And as I explained before, my background was in computer engineering. 128 00:06:14,668 --> 00:06:17,578 It was a very good curriculum and it taught me to think like an engineer. 129 00:06:17,583 --> 00:06:22,528 It taught me to solve ambiguous problems, but it didn't have those core 130 00:06:22,528 --> 00:06:26,008 classes just because it wasn't part of the computer engineering curriculum. 131 00:06:26,458 --> 00:06:29,218 So I kind of went into the interview for the internship. 132 00:06:29,668 --> 00:06:33,298 Um, this was back in 2014, went into the interview and they 133 00:06:33,298 --> 00:06:34,498 were doing on-campus interviews. 134 00:06:34,498 --> 00:06:36,898 I'm not sure if they do that now, but I. 135 00:06:37,528 --> 00:06:41,188 I got a couple of technical questions, which weren't typical of what you 136 00:06:41,188 --> 00:06:46,738 would see nowadays on an S D E intern or s d one interview, and I 137 00:06:46,743 --> 00:06:48,448 got one on like bit manipulation. 138 00:06:48,453 --> 00:06:51,268 I told them my background, so they gave me some bit manipulation question. 139 00:06:51,568 --> 00:06:53,638 They asked me a couple of questions on hash maps. 140 00:06:53,828 --> 00:06:56,048 And then the rest of it was like leadership skills, leadership, 141 00:06:56,048 --> 00:06:56,918 leadership, leadership. 142 00:06:57,398 --> 00:07:00,038 And I did have some of those solid leadership skills and the technical 143 00:07:00,448 --> 00:07:01,778 questions I was able to answer as well. 144 00:07:02,048 --> 00:07:05,528 So I landed the internship and then over the course of the internship I 145 00:07:05,528 --> 00:07:07,418 was developing a Rub on Rails project. 146 00:07:07,418 --> 00:07:10,148 And then I did well on the project and I was able to earn 147 00:07:10,148 --> 00:07:12,338 an s d e one full-time offer. 148 00:07:12,698 --> 00:07:14,948 Now, I did earn the offer through the internship. 149 00:07:14,948 --> 00:07:15,788 I did do well. 150 00:07:15,818 --> 00:07:18,968 I mean, once you have the job, once you're in the door, it's. 151 00:07:19,668 --> 00:07:23,328 More so within your control in terms of, okay, I can put in more hours, or I can 152 00:07:23,328 --> 00:07:24,948 take the extra time to learn something. 153 00:07:25,338 --> 00:07:28,818 I basically worked my ass off during that internship and got the full-time offer. 154 00:07:29,298 --> 00:07:34,668 The reason why I say Amazon shouldn't have hired me is because objectively, if I were 155 00:07:34,673 --> 00:07:40,128 to take the SD one interview, like while I was trying out for that internship, or 156 00:07:40,128 --> 00:07:44,218 even after the internship, even after I graduated, if I had taken the SD one, I. 157 00:07:44,568 --> 00:07:47,238 There's no chance I would've passed that thing objectively. 158 00:07:47,238 --> 00:07:48,228 There's no, there's no way. 159 00:07:48,228 --> 00:07:52,038 And this is confirmed by my experience as an interviewer. 160 00:07:52,218 --> 00:07:53,388 I spent six years at Amazon. 161 00:07:53,418 --> 00:07:56,988 I interviewed many candidates, um, just having a deep understanding 162 00:07:56,988 --> 00:07:58,218 of the interview process as well. 163 00:07:58,458 --> 00:08:01,008 I definitely would not have passed that interview and gotten into Amazon, so 164 00:08:01,008 --> 00:08:03,808 that's why it says Amazon shouldn't have hired me at the beginning. 165 00:08:04,198 --> 00:08:04,708 I love that 166 00:08:04,708 --> 00:08:06,838 Eddie: because I think there's something to be learned there, right? 167 00:08:06,838 --> 00:08:11,998 Which is oftentimes it's easier to move upward in an organization than 168 00:08:11,998 --> 00:08:15,658 to go out and get an organization to hire you from scratch, right? 169 00:08:15,663 --> 00:08:21,238 Because you had gotten in the door as an intern that allowed you to show. 170 00:08:21,963 --> 00:08:27,393 What you were doing as proof that you could be a software engineer at Amazon. 171 00:08:27,843 --> 00:08:31,893 Whereas if you hadn't done that internship and you just finished school and then 172 00:08:31,893 --> 00:08:34,803 been like, all right, I'm gonna get my first job, time to go for Amazon, 173 00:08:34,863 --> 00:08:39,033 you would've had harder questions cuz they would've expected you as an 174 00:08:39,033 --> 00:08:41,163 external hire to be at a higher level. 175 00:08:41,673 --> 00:08:45,333 Like they, so I think that's an awesome thing for people to keep in mind when 176 00:08:45,333 --> 00:08:48,543 they're thinking about how they want to go about their career and knowing like, 177 00:08:48,543 --> 00:08:50,133 hey, if you can get in the door some. 178 00:08:50,918 --> 00:08:55,898 Through an easier doorway and then show proof, like on the job you can 179 00:08:55,898 --> 00:08:59,648 move up where you might not have gotten in the door just trying to 180 00:08:59,648 --> 00:09:01,438 go for that higher level position. 181 00:09:01,748 --> 00:09:04,118 Curtis: Yes, I think there's something to be said there. 182 00:09:04,118 --> 00:09:04,778 Definitely. 183 00:09:04,958 --> 00:09:07,928 I would like to emphasize, you know, that internship was 184 00:09:07,928 --> 00:09:09,968 definitely not like an easy thing. 185 00:09:10,178 --> 00:09:12,338 I would say it's different kind of skillset. 186 00:09:12,488 --> 00:09:15,578 Some people are really good at lead code questions, but, but you know, 187 00:09:15,578 --> 00:09:18,278 they're not very good at some of the soft skills and leadership skills 188 00:09:18,278 --> 00:09:19,868 that it takes to succeed on the job. 189 00:09:20,513 --> 00:09:21,683 It's kind of a trade off, right? 190 00:09:21,688 --> 00:09:25,883 So in my case, wasn't very good at lead code, but was very good on on other, 191 00:09:25,883 --> 00:09:28,193 on-the-job skills and other people's case. 192 00:09:28,193 --> 00:09:29,753 Maybe they're good at lead code, but they're not good 193 00:09:29,753 --> 00:09:30,863 at those on-the-job skills. 194 00:09:31,313 --> 00:09:33,683 So that internship was actually very challenging and over the 195 00:09:33,683 --> 00:09:35,703 years I've mentored several. 196 00:09:36,763 --> 00:09:40,883 Engineering interns as well, so I know how about the structure and how challenging 197 00:09:40,883 --> 00:09:44,163 it can be, and so not everybody makes it out of that internship with a 198 00:09:44,163 --> 00:09:45,813 full-time offer, as you can imagine. 199 00:09:46,203 --> 00:09:47,643 I'm not sure what the percentage is. 200 00:09:47,643 --> 00:09:49,473 I, I'm not gonna throw out a number because it's probably 201 00:09:49,478 --> 00:09:50,283 changing all the time. 202 00:09:50,763 --> 00:09:55,623 I was talking about the differences between interviewing in tech as 203 00:09:55,653 --> 00:10:00,843 well as on the job skills, and I think my case brings up a broader 204 00:10:00,843 --> 00:10:02,643 discussion about interviewing. 205 00:10:03,448 --> 00:10:07,618 The tech industry as a whole has this whole lead code process, and they 206 00:10:07,618 --> 00:10:11,908 measure these specific skills in a live coding interview kind of way. 207 00:10:11,908 --> 00:10:13,078 Like many companies do this. 208 00:10:13,083 --> 00:10:17,158 It's not just Amazon, you know, it's Google, it's meta, it's all 209 00:10:17,158 --> 00:10:18,118 kinds of different companies. 210 00:10:18,118 --> 00:10:18,388 Right? 211 00:10:18,928 --> 00:10:21,568 And I think it brings up a broader discussion of, is that the right 212 00:10:21,568 --> 00:10:23,458 way to be interviewing people? 213 00:10:24,338 --> 00:10:28,838 I have some personal opinions about like what we could do, but everybody does. 214 00:10:29,108 --> 00:10:32,348 I think everybody at some level has an opinion on how we should be 215 00:10:32,353 --> 00:10:34,778 measuring candidates for these roles. 216 00:10:35,138 --> 00:10:37,478 There's been some changes, like I think there have been. 217 00:10:37,973 --> 00:10:40,763 Different companies that are starting a trend of like avoiding 218 00:10:40,763 --> 00:10:41,813 those kinds of interviews. 219 00:10:42,143 --> 00:10:45,263 Maybe going away from the whiteboard interviews, maybe going 220 00:10:45,263 --> 00:10:48,143 into like poll request type of interviewing, behavioral type of 221 00:10:48,143 --> 00:10:49,463 interviewing, those kinds of things. 222 00:10:49,733 --> 00:10:50,363 It's a good, 223 00:10:50,513 --> 00:10:51,383 Eddie: a good point, right? 224 00:10:51,388 --> 00:10:52,943 And it kind of creates two call outs. 225 00:10:52,943 --> 00:10:56,393 Like one, if you're out there and you're interviewing and you feel like you're 226 00:10:56,393 --> 00:10:58,443 not passing interviews like that doesn't. 227 00:10:59,048 --> 00:11:00,518 You would be bad at the job. 228 00:11:00,518 --> 00:11:03,248 That just means you're having challenges with the interview process. 229 00:11:03,248 --> 00:11:05,348 So like don't be discouraged by that. 230 00:11:05,558 --> 00:11:09,608 You may just need to hone up some of the interviewing skills or look for 231 00:11:09,613 --> 00:11:14,558 companies that have different interview processes that are more of what you 232 00:11:14,558 --> 00:11:17,108 would do in your day job as companies. 233 00:11:17,168 --> 00:11:17,978 I totally agree with you. 234 00:11:17,978 --> 00:11:19,268 I think we need to do better. 235 00:11:19,598 --> 00:11:22,868 There's different levels of like leak code where it's like a lot of what you 236 00:11:22,868 --> 00:11:24,908 do doesn't actually happen in your day. 237 00:11:25,533 --> 00:11:28,528 and then you've got, I would put like Glassdoor in this category, which is like, 238 00:11:28,528 --> 00:11:32,998 okay, you still do live coding, but it's more what you would do in the day job. 239 00:11:32,998 --> 00:11:36,988 And so like for example, as a front end engineer, you're gonna mess with like 240 00:11:36,988 --> 00:11:42,868 grabbing data from APIs and displaying it on screen during a 45 minute session. 241 00:11:43,048 --> 00:11:44,878 And it's like, well, you still have to code in front of someone, 242 00:11:44,878 --> 00:11:48,178 but you're doing stuff that you would normally do in the day job. 243 00:11:48,288 --> 00:11:50,548 It's, it's not something you have to specially study for. 244 00:11:50,908 --> 00:11:52,768 And then, yeah, I think different types of things. 245 00:11:53,323 --> 00:11:56,353 Pull requests and like how do people work in teams? 246 00:11:56,353 --> 00:11:58,303 Like finding ways to dig into that stuff. 247 00:11:58,693 --> 00:12:00,583 So vital to how we work. 248 00:12:00,583 --> 00:12:01,243 I I love that. 249 00:12:01,303 --> 00:12:02,263 Yes, absolutely. 250 00:12:02,563 --> 00:12:03,283 Well, cool. 251 00:12:03,283 --> 00:12:03,733 Um, 252 00:12:03,823 --> 00:12:09,073 you know, you were at Amazon and I know we deal with imposter syndrome a lot 253 00:12:09,103 --> 00:12:11,353 in kind of the tech industry, right? 254 00:12:11,353 --> 00:12:12,543 Did you encounter that there? 255 00:12:13,488 --> 00:12:16,548 , how did that feel working kind of among Amazon? 256 00:12:16,938 --> 00:12:17,658 Curtis: Yeah, definitely. 257 00:12:17,658 --> 00:12:22,008 I think, um, in my case, and I kind of talk about this a little bit into 258 00:12:22,013 --> 00:12:25,668 piece as well, in my case, I have kind of an unpopular opinion when 259 00:12:25,668 --> 00:12:27,888 it comes to like imposter syndrome, 260 00:12:28,548 --> 00:12:31,698 So I, I typically like to drop the, the syndrome part of it, right? 261 00:12:31,788 --> 00:12:35,958 I like to look at it as, okay, maybe like I'm an actual imposter and in, 262 00:12:35,958 --> 00:12:41,568 like in my case, I was objectively coming into Amazon without some skills. 263 00:12:42,203 --> 00:12:44,963 Every SD one gets hired having, right. 264 00:12:44,963 --> 00:12:47,183 So I'm like, oh, I'm the only one that doesn't have these skills. 265 00:12:47,663 --> 00:12:48,953 So when I, Dr. 266 00:12:48,983 --> 00:12:51,833 And for me, when I was able to drop the syndrome part out of it, to 267 00:12:51,833 --> 00:12:56,423 say, okay, maybe I really don't have these skills, like I have to kind 268 00:12:56,423 --> 00:13:00,143 of objectively look at myself and reflect and say, okay, I am where I am. 269 00:13:00,443 --> 00:13:03,053 I have the skills that I have, I have the background that I have. 270 00:13:03,053 --> 00:13:04,313 Maybe I'm at some kind of. 271 00:13:04,788 --> 00:13:09,348 Disadvantages relative to my other peers, but I can take where I am 272 00:13:09,348 --> 00:13:12,858 and then recognize what I have to do to acquire those skills. 273 00:13:13,278 --> 00:13:14,778 And really, I think that's what it's all about. 274 00:13:14,778 --> 00:13:17,388 Just having the self-awareness to say, Hey, I don't know this right now, 275 00:13:17,388 --> 00:13:18,558 but I'm gonna go out and learn that. 276 00:13:18,918 --> 00:13:22,158 Or, I am performing this way right now, but I'm gonna take the feedback 277 00:13:22,163 --> 00:13:26,748 from my peers and my managers and, and that sort of thing. 278 00:13:26,778 --> 00:13:29,568 And, um, take that feedback in stride and improve any way that 279 00:13:29,568 --> 00:13:31,128 I can because I wanna stay. 280 00:13:31,623 --> 00:13:31,863 Right. 281 00:13:31,863 --> 00:13:33,843 And I wanna ex and I want to excel here. 282 00:13:34,203 --> 00:13:37,203 Um, so that's kind of the attitude I took in that situation. 283 00:13:37,563 --> 00:13:42,423 Eddie: So you worked at Amazon for six years, then you moved on to freelancing. 284 00:13:42,513 --> 00:13:45,573 Obviously you're enjoying being a software engineer. 285 00:13:45,873 --> 00:13:48,993 Kind of what is it that keeps you excited and interested working in 286 00:13:48,993 --> 00:13:49,533 Curtis: this field? 287 00:13:49,743 --> 00:13:50,583 Yeah, it's a good question. 288 00:13:51,173 --> 00:13:54,483 Software engineering, back when I was in high school and going up 289 00:13:54,483 --> 00:14:00,108 through college, I really liked the problem solving aspect of it and the 290 00:14:00,578 --> 00:14:02,058 creative problem solving aspect of it. 291 00:14:02,358 --> 00:14:08,298 So no one developer or no two developers come to the same solution, right? 292 00:14:08,298 --> 00:14:12,858 Everyone has their own unique way to solve a problem and just. 293 00:14:13,278 --> 00:14:16,698 Looking at the creative process, the logically creative process 294 00:14:16,698 --> 00:14:19,968 that each developer goes through, and solving these different 295 00:14:19,968 --> 00:14:21,468 problems is very interesting to me. 296 00:14:21,858 --> 00:14:24,738 And the problems get even more and more interesting as you get better, right? 297 00:14:24,738 --> 00:14:28,128 You have, at first, you're thinking about edge cases and corner 298 00:14:28,128 --> 00:14:29,418 cases and those kinds of things. 299 00:14:29,748 --> 00:14:32,238 And then as you level up in tech, you start thinking about more of 300 00:14:32,238 --> 00:14:34,878 the business side of things, right? 301 00:14:34,908 --> 00:14:35,178 Um, you. 302 00:14:36,263 --> 00:14:39,923 Noticing gaps in like a business, instant business requirements or maybe 303 00:14:39,923 --> 00:14:44,183 something that they say they want, like maybe the customer says they want 304 00:14:44,183 --> 00:14:46,673 one thing, and then you have to kind of fill in the gap for them saying, 305 00:14:46,673 --> 00:14:48,233 Hey, but what about this situation? 306 00:14:48,503 --> 00:14:52,763 And those problems become much more collaborative, collaborative between all 307 00:14:52,763 --> 00:14:57,383 kinds of different people, like engineers, product managers, UX designers, and it 308 00:14:57,383 --> 00:15:00,683 becomes, you know, the, the problems get even more and more interesting. 309 00:15:01,368 --> 00:15:03,498 And I like collaborating with humans as well. 310 00:15:03,588 --> 00:15:08,028 Like, uh, I think in the early stages of software engineering, you're pretty much 311 00:15:08,028 --> 00:15:11,838 always coding, but in the latest stages, you're al you're always collaborating 312 00:15:11,838 --> 00:15:15,768 with other people and it's more about precise communication, whether that's 313 00:15:15,768 --> 00:15:17,498 verbal, uh, non-verbal or written. 314 00:15:18,053 --> 00:15:18,293 No, 315 00:15:18,293 --> 00:15:19,193 Eddie: that's, that's fun. 316 00:15:19,193 --> 00:15:23,183 Like you said, as as the journey goes on, you get to do different 317 00:15:23,183 --> 00:15:27,623 things and you get these different experiences and it is great working, 318 00:15:27,893 --> 00:15:29,843 working with people as well as code. 319 00:15:30,203 --> 00:15:33,473 One of the things that we like to talk about in this podcast 320 00:15:33,478 --> 00:15:35,213 is things that bring us joy and. 321 00:15:35,623 --> 00:15:38,773 I just wanna say, hey, what's something that brings you joy? 322 00:15:38,773 --> 00:15:41,713 Maybe something you've been doing or a way you've been working 323 00:15:42,043 --> 00:15:42,523 Curtis: for you? 324 00:15:42,793 --> 00:15:47,713 So when I became a freelancer, one of my main clients has been Gum Road. 325 00:15:47,803 --> 00:15:52,633 Um, and so Gum Road is put simply, it's a website, gum road.com, 326 00:15:52,633 --> 00:15:54,403 where you as a creator can. 327 00:15:54,718 --> 00:15:57,088 Log on and upload files and sell them as a product. 328 00:15:57,418 --> 00:15:59,488 And that's kind of a simplistic definition. 329 00:15:59,488 --> 00:16:04,168 You can sell digital files like eBooks or videos, or you can sell physical 330 00:16:04,173 --> 00:16:07,888 items as well if you have, have your own way to ship customers items. 331 00:16:08,098 --> 00:16:09,658 But very simple website. 332 00:16:09,663 --> 00:16:10,588 I say that in a good way. 333 00:16:10,588 --> 00:16:13,678 I think simplicity is beautiful, especially when it comes to 334 00:16:13,683 --> 00:16:14,788 products and engineering. 335 00:16:15,178 --> 00:16:18,298 But what's interesting about Gum Road and working with them is 336 00:16:18,658 --> 00:16:20,278 it's completely asynchronous. 337 00:16:20,858 --> 00:16:24,173 So, I think in the past year that I've been working with them, I've 338 00:16:24,173 --> 00:16:29,183 only had four meetings the whole time, which is pretty unheard of. 339 00:16:29,333 --> 00:16:30,023 Yeah. 340 00:16:30,473 --> 00:16:30,773 . Yeah. 341 00:16:30,773 --> 00:16:34,403 So it's, it very much resembles working on an open, kind of 342 00:16:34,403 --> 00:16:35,693 like an open source project. 343 00:16:36,113 --> 00:16:38,873 We have like three modes of communication. 344 00:16:38,933 --> 00:16:44,153 There's like notion, GitHub, and um, slack, and that's pretty much it. 345 00:16:44,273 --> 00:16:46,194 Um, if you're a designer, you have Figma as. 346 00:16:46,538 --> 00:16:48,878 So it's the, the whole thing is completely asynchronous. 347 00:16:48,938 --> 00:16:51,848 You know, you dive into the notion and you figure out, okay, what's 348 00:16:51,848 --> 00:16:54,878 the highest priority task or project that needs to be worked on? 349 00:16:54,878 --> 00:16:58,148 And you kind of like, as an engineer, I have to be able to like scope 350 00:16:58,148 --> 00:17:01,188 it out, break down the tasks of what we need to do, and then. 351 00:17:01,798 --> 00:17:03,718 Involve whoever I need to evolve. 352 00:17:04,258 --> 00:17:08,248 Maybe I have to reach out to a product manager to clarify something, or maybe 353 00:17:08,248 --> 00:17:11,968 I have to reach out to a designer to get something designed, and then I'm diving 354 00:17:11,968 --> 00:17:15,568 into the code and pretty much shipping, authoring, and reviewing GitHub poll 355 00:17:15,568 --> 00:17:17,818 request to, to ship to this, this product. 356 00:17:17,818 --> 00:17:19,468 So it's, it's very interesting. 357 00:17:19,678 --> 00:17:22,658 Very interesting work life, uh, situation I have. 358 00:17:22,953 --> 00:17:23,673 Nice, 359 00:17:23,913 --> 00:17:24,333 Eddie: I think. 360 00:17:24,783 --> 00:17:28,023 What do you find challenging about that? 361 00:17:28,023 --> 00:17:28,323 Right. 362 00:17:28,323 --> 00:17:30,633 Obviously there's a lot of upsides for asynchronous, right? 363 00:17:30,633 --> 00:17:35,193 You get to work on your own schedule and you know, get to zoom in, but yeah. 364 00:17:35,193 --> 00:17:36,993 What kind of challenges have you run into? 365 00:17:37,503 --> 00:17:39,963 Curtis: A lot of times verbally, conversations can 366 00:17:39,963 --> 00:17:41,443 be hashed out a lot quickly. 367 00:17:41,733 --> 00:17:45,633 More quickly, and it's tougher to ha to like write things down 368 00:17:45,633 --> 00:17:46,863 sometimes, like if you have a. 369 00:17:47,738 --> 00:17:51,278 And sometimes the pro, the problems that you're solving can get very complex, 370 00:17:51,278 --> 00:17:55,118 especially in software engineering, and the communication has to be very precise. 371 00:17:55,478 --> 00:18:01,658 So sometimes writing out maybe on a poll request, giving enough context or maybe 372 00:18:01,663 --> 00:18:05,678 you're having a slack discussion about some something that needs to be debugged 373 00:18:06,068 --> 00:18:06,998 and you have to have very precise. 374 00:18:07,548 --> 00:18:11,058 Communication around everything, and that's difficult. 375 00:18:11,178 --> 00:18:14,538 I got into writing, especially writing on the internet probably a couple years 376 00:18:14,538 --> 00:18:18,288 ago, and that kind of opened my eyes to just how difficult writing can be. 377 00:18:18,588 --> 00:18:21,678 Most of the time when you write something, the first pass through, 378 00:18:21,858 --> 00:18:24,978 it's not going to be correct or precise or you're gonna have to make edits. 379 00:18:25,398 --> 00:18:27,918 And so if you're, if all of your communication is writing, you 380 00:18:27,918 --> 00:18:30,888 have to write and then you have to go back and revise and revise 381 00:18:30,888 --> 00:18:33,018 and revise and then finally send. 382 00:18:33,528 --> 00:18:35,388 So I'd say that's been challenging, but it's. 383 00:18:36,188 --> 00:18:37,868 Influenced a little bit of my growth as well. 384 00:18:37,868 --> 00:18:41,288 I think I've become a better writer because of this, this process. 385 00:18:41,663 --> 00:18:45,093 Eddie: Yeah, that's awesome because like you said, while it is challenging, 386 00:18:45,098 --> 00:18:49,463 I think it also helps shed light when you're having to analyze it, right? 387 00:18:49,468 --> 00:18:53,813 And yes, oftentimes when we're in a meeting, we can kind of spit things out 388 00:18:53,813 --> 00:18:56,123 that we only half know or half understand. 389 00:18:56,123 --> 00:18:58,313 And it's like when you're writing and you're making sure it's 390 00:18:58,313 --> 00:19:02,033 right and clear, it makes you question your own assumptions. 391 00:19:02,033 --> 00:19:04,103 So that definitely seems like something that. 392 00:19:04,758 --> 00:19:09,198 Really help you understand things and, and if someone is like, wait, what did we say? 393 00:19:09,198 --> 00:19:11,148 Like, it's not lost in a meeting somewhere. 394 00:19:11,148 --> 00:19:12,768 Like it's actually written down and they can 395 00:19:12,773 --> 00:19:13,458 Curtis: go back and read it. 396 00:19:14,268 --> 00:19:15,228 Yes, absolutely. 397 00:19:15,228 --> 00:19:18,888 I, and this also reminds me when I was at Amazon, Amazon has a 398 00:19:18,893 --> 00:19:20,958 very strong writing culture. 399 00:19:20,958 --> 00:19:22,788 So they have like a no PowerPoint rule. 400 00:19:22,788 --> 00:19:27,828 Like if you have an idea or something that you're proposing to a group of people, 401 00:19:27,948 --> 00:19:29,088 you're not allowed to use PowerPoint. 402 00:19:29,088 --> 00:19:30,438 You have to write a document. 403 00:19:30,438 --> 00:19:32,748 It has to be a one pager or a six page. 404 00:19:33,303 --> 00:19:35,823 Because writing forces cla that clarity of thought. 405 00:19:35,883 --> 00:19:39,903 You know, you cannot BS your way through a written documents, but you 406 00:19:40,093 --> 00:19:42,873 can BS your way through a PowerPoint presentation or something like that. 407 00:19:43,773 --> 00:19:44,313 . Yeah, 408 00:19:44,313 --> 00:19:45,033 Eddie: absolutely. 409 00:19:45,363 --> 00:19:45,753 Great. 410 00:19:45,753 --> 00:19:50,163 As we, you know, wrap up here, one of the things we always like to do is just 411 00:19:50,253 --> 00:19:53,403 as a community, we love to support each other and just wanted to know, is there 412 00:19:53,403 --> 00:19:56,613 anything that you're involved in or anything you've worked on that you'd like? 413 00:19:57,293 --> 00:20:00,953 Share with the community that they, they might find helpful and want to check out. 414 00:20:01,373 --> 00:20:04,103 Curtis: I mentioned earlier this year, I launched my first video course. 415 00:20:04,103 --> 00:20:05,813 It's called Master the Code Review. 416 00:20:06,143 --> 00:20:11,093 I think code review is a critical, important subject for software 417 00:20:11,093 --> 00:20:12,383 engineers, software developers. 418 00:20:12,773 --> 00:20:16,193 Almost every software developer does this on a daily basis that very 419 00:20:16,223 --> 00:20:17,813 few people are talking about it. 420 00:20:18,143 --> 00:20:20,303 And so that's what motivated me to make this course. 421 00:20:20,333 --> 00:20:24,023 Um, that, and, you know, my particular struggles with code 422 00:20:24,023 --> 00:20:25,553 reviews early on in my career. 423 00:20:25,993 --> 00:20:30,283 , you know, I'd, I'd open up a poll request and I'd get like 50 comments on it or 424 00:20:30,283 --> 00:20:33,193 like, you know, I would, I'd submit another revision of that poll request, 425 00:20:33,193 --> 00:20:37,363 get another 30 comments on it, and then when I would look at code that people 426 00:20:37,363 --> 00:20:40,198 sent me to review, I didn't know what to look for or how to give good feedback. 427 00:20:41,143 --> 00:20:46,183 And over the years, especially at Amazon, I learned a lot about 428 00:20:46,183 --> 00:20:47,503 the ins and outs of code review. 429 00:20:48,078 --> 00:20:51,588 Whether that is the process that the code reviewed process, that the team 430 00:20:51,588 --> 00:20:55,728 is following the code that an engineer is reviewing, or the code that an 431 00:20:55,728 --> 00:20:59,868 engineer is writing and how to address such, um, code review comments and 432 00:20:59,868 --> 00:21:01,128 feedback and those kinds of things. 433 00:21:01,308 --> 00:21:02,208 So I cover all this. 434 00:21:02,208 --> 00:21:06,108 It's like, it's a video course, it's about four hours worth of video 435 00:21:06,108 --> 00:21:08,238 content and it's on Gum road of course. 436 00:21:08,298 --> 00:21:11,208 So very easy to, to find that and check that out. 437 00:21:11,478 --> 00:21:12,048 Awesome. 438 00:21:12,048 --> 00:21:13,818 Eddie: Well, we'll include a link in the show. 439 00:21:14,353 --> 00:21:16,003 I know there isn't much content. 440 00:21:16,003 --> 00:21:19,333 I mean, there's blog posts here and there, right about pull requests and 441 00:21:19,573 --> 00:21:21,313 code reviews and things like that. 442 00:21:21,313 --> 00:21:24,253 But yeah, I don't feel like I've seen much actual, like really 443 00:21:24,253 --> 00:21:25,933 in-depth content like this. 444 00:21:25,938 --> 00:21:27,793 So I think that's, that's great. 445 00:21:27,793 --> 00:21:31,813 And anyone, if you feel like you need to step up your code review game, 446 00:21:32,143 --> 00:21:34,123 if you feel unsure or just like. 447 00:21:34,463 --> 00:21:37,283 Maybe you've only done open source projects and like you've never been 448 00:21:37,283 --> 00:21:40,313 in a company that's done those, you've always worked on your own or something. 449 00:21:40,313 --> 00:21:44,573 Like, there's a great chance to to learn how to collaborate with others. 450 00:21:44,573 --> 00:21:49,223 So definitely, uh, encourage everyone to check that out and, uh, yeah. 451 00:21:49,223 --> 00:21:51,203 Curtis, thank you so much for joining us today. 452 00:21:51,203 --> 00:21:52,223 It's been a pleasure. 453 00:21:52,223 --> 00:21:55,793 Just chatting, getting to know you, your journey, uh, hearing 454 00:21:55,793 --> 00:21:57,203 about working asynchronously. 455 00:21:57,208 --> 00:21:59,963 I think that is such a huge thing. 456 00:22:00,423 --> 00:22:04,413 In remote work, this ability for companies to start shifting, to work in that way. 457 00:22:04,413 --> 00:22:07,533 And it's great to actually hear someone who is actually doing 458 00:22:07,533 --> 00:22:09,633 that and it's working well for 459 00:22:10,023 --> 00:22:10,593 Curtis: Thanks a lot Eddie. 460 00:22:10,593 --> 00:22:13,563 I really appreciate you having me on the podcast. 461 00:22:13,568 --> 00:22:16,473 I think we covered a lot of ground today and I really hope 462 00:22:16,478 --> 00:22:17,763 to, to listen to this Will Joy. 463 00:22:18,973 --> 00:22:21,613 Eddie: Thank you for joining us for episode 41. 464 00:22:21,943 --> 00:22:26,383 An unpopular view on imposter syndrome with Curtis You can find 465 00:22:26,383 --> 00:22:29,683 links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well as a link 466 00:22:29,713 --> 00:22:33,463 to Curtis's website and social media accounts in the show notes. 467 00:22:33,913 --> 00:22:37,033 If you enjoyed this episode, help others discover it as well. 468 00:22:37,333 --> 00:22:40,003 Why don't you give us a shout out on your favorite social media platform 469 00:22:40,213 --> 00:22:43,693 and tag a friend or coworker that you think would enjoy this episode? 470 00:22:44,143 --> 00:22:48,613 Don't forget to follow us wherever you hang out online, or you can subscribe 471 00:22:48,613 --> 00:22:50,833 to our newsletter to stay up to date. 472 00:22:51,493 --> 00:22:53,863 Thank you for joining us for season one. 473 00:22:54,133 --> 00:22:57,853 If you have three minutes, please take our short listener survey. 474 00:22:57,943 --> 00:23:01,573 You can find the link in the show notes and it will be invaluable 475 00:23:01,573 --> 00:23:03,013 while we plan out season two. 476 00:23:03,793 --> 00:23:05,233 Thank you for listening. 477 00:23:05,743 --> 00:23:07,393 And have a great day.