Welcome to the Big Careers Small Children Podcast. My name is Verena Hefti. I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children for much too long. Amazing people like I'm sure you listening right now have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because. Because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male, middle class people leading our organizations. We must change this together. And I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place. Outside of the podcast, I am the CEO and founder of the social enterprise Leaders Plus. We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families. We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, shared parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges, or managing as a dual career couple. We also have an award winning fellowship community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family. You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight knit, supportive group of parents who have your back. Together. You'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations. You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family. And you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself. I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the program, be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangement. They always impress me so much with the courage that they instill in each other to do what is right for them without apologizing for having a family or apologizing for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship. Today I'm chatting to Silvia Wolos who is a Senior leader mentor on our Leaders Fellowship program about her story of getting to a C-Suite role about networking as an introvert and also how to stop apologizing. Enjoy the conversation.

First of all, thank you so much Verena for having me on this amazing podcast. It's really my pleasure. So my name is Silvia Wolos and I'm Chief Strategy Officer at a company called Ground Truth Intelligence. I have A lovely and very fulfilling career in a field called risk management and compliance. So what I have been doing for nearly two decades is helping large corporations, financial institutions, identify and mitigate risk related to financial crime and their reputation. So my focus has been on international investigations, corporate investigations and due diligence, which is a fascinating and very fulfilling, it has been a very fulfilling field for me. Anti corruption, anti money laundering in the field. And with regards to my family setup, I have three children aged between 7 and 12. We don't have any pets, three children, myself and my partner, we live just outside Brussels for the past four years.

Wonderful. I'm now having a picture in my head of you in a. Yes. In an office and all very grown up, but also there being like a detective hunting down criminals. It might not be that picture is right, but it sounds like a really interesting field and one that I didn't even know existed.

It's fascinating and I have to say that it's been a source of great fulfillment and engagement for me. I very often hear that I'm quite passionate about the topic because what goes beyond financial crime is all what's called predicate offense. So all crime that has victims, real people's victims, that leads to generating financial benefits for criminal, Very often it's organized crime that they have to essentially launder to enjoy the benefits of it. So crimes such as modern slavery, which is a huge problem or fraud that is impacting particularly in the uk, so many of vulnerable people in our society, all horrendous crimes that are happening at a huge scale globally, lead to or are driven by the desire to financially benefit from that crime. Right. Whether it's arms trafficking, drugs trafficking, anything. So making it difficult or preventing the abilities for organized criminal groups to commit the crimes or assist law enforcement in their work through the work that we do, that our clients do, is an extremely motivating sector for me to work in. And it is to a large extent related to my, I think, upbringing and where I come from. I grew up in Poland in the 1980s. I'm Polish by origin and I had this episode in my life which was in my late 20s. So already through a system transformation in Poland, When I was a child, it was common practice for everybody to pay bribes. Corruption was widespread, huge corruption, but also small corruption, everyday corruption. It was just the way things were. And in my late 20s, after the system transformation, where Poland was already part of European Union and you would expect that the petty corruption, that everyday corruption, you know, get your spot at the university, get your healthcare and so on would have been dealt with, but it hasn't. And I experienced it when I fell quite ill. I had tuberculosis and I ended up in the hospital. And with all the stress and emotions related to identifying such a serious situation, health situation, I also had to observe the additional stress and panic, I guess from my parents for whom the first thought was to whom do we need to bring an envelope so you can get the right treatment? Which of the doctors or nurses? And I was shocked that my parents generation still thinks this way, even though most doctors already at this time would not accept the bribe obviously, but it just shows how the sort of cancer of the society, which is corruption and financial crime in more general terms, how pervasive it is. And it takes decades and generations to change the situation. My parents did not end up paying any bribe. I bluntly refused and I made it a condition that I only stay in this hospital for the treatment. If you do not bring anything to anybody and it's absolutely forbidden and on top of that illegal, so you should stop doing that. But yes, it really fueled my passion for that topic back in the day and keeps me going all the time.

I love how your passion comes through for this field. And I'm interested in how you combine such a passionate C-suite role with not just one or two but three children. What do you know now about combining a big career with young children that you didn't know 10 years ago?

It's a difficult question because obviously we evolve as a person as we grow older, as we have different life experiences. So I don't know if there's always a strict line between what I know now that I didn't know 15 years ago versus what I know now as a mom, what I didn't know or what I thought differently before I had children. I think that's an important factor here that a lot of our experiences conform us. And being a parent is huge and life changing experience. But it's one of the experiences as we go. For me, it was difficult to believe that it's possible to have a successful professional life, maybe demanding higher leadership role at work and be a fully present, satisfied, successful parent at the same time, particularly to multiple children. And I think the reason, I'm sure you hear it a lot, that people didn't believe it's possible before they actually went and did it. I think there are multiple reasons for that. One is the lack of role models around me. In my childhood my mom did not work professionally. She looked after four children. Although she did have a lot of impact on the local community. She volunteered. It was not called volunteering but she devoted a lot of her time and work to community work, which I think was also influential for me as well in a positive way. But at work, either there weren't that many women in higher roles in the organizations I was part of or they would not talk openly. There was the, the narrative around working parents and working moms especially was very different. And I think that has changed in our society significantly. And obviously it's important for fantastic work that you do with your with Leaders plus but other organizations as well and day to day conversations to bring it up and change that narrative.

And I think it's so funny how it's so ingrained in us. I want to go into this, but before I do so thank you so much for helping to be one of those role models by actually volunteering your time as a senior leader mentor for Leaders plus. I think it's really important to support others in that journey because it can be such a lonely place because not just do you have to do the work of being a good career person, good leader, you also have to do or you want to do the work of a good enough parent. And then on top of it's all that work of going beyond society expectations, putting that puzzle of child support care together. And I think that's where we need more support. But it was really interesting about the point about assumptions. So when we came on this call we started with me apologizing for being late and the reason was that I just had a call from my son's hospital consultant which anybody working in the UK and understanding the healthcare system in nhs, it's really important that you do not miss a call. And you said to me, Verena, why are you apologizing? Surely we should not apologize for these things. And I know that in reality, but it's just so interesting how even I, who have the luxury of being surrounded by people like you, it's so deeply ingrained that we need to apologize for taking child related things during work and especially if it makes someone late or so. What do you think needs to change to help people feel at ease and apologize less for their children's stuff?

Very specifically with the word apologize, there's one seemingly easy tactic but very difficult to implement on ongoing basis. Don't apologize, thank to the person for being patient or for waiting for you. It's the same way. But the result is, I think much more positive. You're not putting yourself in a position, you did something wrong, so you have to apologize. You're actually highlighting the person has been patient, they waited for you and they understand. So I think that switch from apologize to say thank you, I think it's a good tactic, although I completely understand. We are so ingrained, not through the. Only through the society expectations, you know, you're late so you should apologize, but. But also the language. Right. The language defines us to such a huge extent and consciously managing this or consciously changing the vocabulary that we're using, particularly if we've been using the same phrases for, you know, 40 years and we're so used to them, it's a difficult topic.

Yeah, that's very true. And I think in my case there's an extra challenge because of course I'm Swiss and so being late, I'm fully fulfilling the stereotype and I think most Swiss people are as well. That would be the worst.

I share similar experiences of being the only non-native English speaker in the meeting room, you know, one of very few or the only girl in the room. So all those things actually add up as some stress factors, I guess. And it takes a bit of experience and probably emotionally going through those and turning them into the positives and into the advantages of being that only person of that origin or that gender or the only parent in the meeting room and what that gives us and how we positively contribute to the dynamics and the team achievements.

Right, interesting. So how are you dealing now when you are the only woman in that meeting room or even the only person with caring responsibilities, how are you dealing that now? And has that changed over the years?

I think it has changed over the years. It used to be a source of great stress for me. It's no longer so it can be sometimes frustrating. But I'm more vocal about different perception of certain items or certain problems that could be related to how women and men perceive certain things differently. And there's value in both points of view. So bringing it up and even highlighting that maybe the reason I'm making this suggestion we should consider this option is because of my gender and because my different perspective on the things. So I think vocalizing it and not shying it away and for myself, turning into advantage rather than disadvantage and thinking about this as in a, In a positive way has probably improved my perception of the situation. But it can be frustrating a little bit sometimes because there's still so much work that needs to be done in the business environment to make sure that women are receiving the right equal treatment. The gender pay gap persists in multiple sectors. Women leadership styles are perceived slightly differently than men's leadership style. And while a lot positive change has happened over the last decade or so in mid-level management roles, the very senior roles, I think there's still a lot to go to make sure that there's more equal balance.

Yeah, I completely agree. And for the UK listeners in the uk, this year is the first time when the gender pay gap has started to widen again, which is due to research that just came out this week. And I think we do need to change that. And root cause is that not enough women get to those senior levels that are well paid and then on average they are paid less as a result of that. What do you think needs to happen? That more people with caring responsibilities can be in those senior roles, Both women, but also those dads who decide, well, actually I do want to work part time and being a senior role. Just spoke to someone who identifies themselves as a career dad. They both want a big career and be a present dad. And at the moment, society doesn't always allow us to be both.

100% There's the economical world and the economical realities are that we are in the two income household models. It's very difficult to operate on one salary model these days. But also women want to have careers. Many women want to be out there, want to develop and be successful at work. But the societal structures and thinking about care is lagging behind. You know, care is economically valuable but is globally undervalued and unfortunately a lot of care responsibilities, well, more care responsibilities fall on women than men. So I think the economic and societal approach to care, the cost of childcare, the cost of care for elderly, disabled, you know, any dependence in family environment needs to be rethought and improved. But also the narratives around this and the flexibility of work and ability to combine successful career and care, I think the narrative is going in the right direction, but it's still not there enough. And my personal view is that very often, obviously complicated reasons, but very often we ourselves need to work first on our own thinking. How do I perceive a career? How do I perceive I'm successful in my career? Is it X title or is it X level of salary? Is it fulfillment? Is it satisfaction? Is it acting with integrity? You know, how often do you have to be there? Do you have to be there full time to be successful? Or can you feel and show up as successful in your work when you're working three days a week or four days a week? Right. So I think a lot of people, and probably that was also my perception before I had children, why it's impossible to have a successful, demanding career because that sort of single way of thinking career is working 60 hour weeks and just working and being extremely senior, extremely wealthy, and that's it. And while you accept that being successful in your professional life is a combination of lots of different things and it's not just the working hours and the title, I think that would become easier to drive. Also that flexibility and combining the current career.

Interesting. And yet you do have a C in your job title. Your role is a C suite role. And because of that you're an outlier. Just statistically, the FTSE Women Leaders Review have shown research recently that while there's been some improvement on boards at that C suite level, there's still a massive, massive issue. And I know every organization is different. But looking back at your story, what do you think were the turning points that got you to where you are now? How did it happen?

That's a difficult question. How did it happen? Because it seems like a natural progression for me from my perspective and maybe I can't provide more objective sort of milestones maybe about the C-suite role and the title. As you say, Verena, every organization is different. Obviously in a small organization there's different titles than when you're looking at an organization of 10,000 people or 25,000 people. So keep that perspective in mind. The title has never been, throughout my working life, important to me personally. But I do appreciate that it defines us to many external stakeholders. And it has been a source of frustration to me when people react differently to you, even though you have been the same person six months earlier. But your title was different, your job title was different. Unfortunately, there is this social construct of your role title or of your title at work. What got me here, I would say the passion that I have for the topic and for the field that I'm working in, making the world even a little bit safer and better place for us and for future generations. Seeing that link between what I do every day, even if it's a tiny, tiny contribution, it is still a contribution. Appreciating that and really being committed to this, but also finding as I, as I went through my career, my children were born, you know, my work style, my leadership style, my thinking about myself in my profession have been evolving significantly. So remaining agile, you know, flexible, adjusting easily, and having, I guess that desire and flexibility to do new things, try new things, do different things, I think that has been quite helpful to keep myself also so engaged because I have had phenomenal experiences through my career. My career has been Quite interesting from the perspective that I started in research and operations, but then I had the pleasure of working with customers, working with regulators, working with marketing teams, working with sales teams, working with finance teams. So very, very diverse experiences which just keeps it so interesting and wants me to keep on going.

You're now motivating me to go into risk and anti corruption. It sounds amazing. Have you had any thoughts about this leadership style changing that you mentioned what exactly has changed in your leadership as a result of having children?

So I think as a result of having children, and I'm sure most parents will say the same, you become more focused and you just have to get things done because you know you have other priorities. And you just can't extend reviewing this document until 10pm because if you leave it for later, you will have to do it after 9pm and that's not very good neither for that legal document you're reviewing or for your mental health and for your physical health. So getting things done faster, focusing on priorities and not dragging things that may be making also decisions faster, this is the priority. This is not the priority. My time is very precious because I want to share this time between my work and my family life. So I need to make some decisions and not linger on things as much maybe as I, as I would in the past. A little bit more of compassion, I guess it's very difficult to be a leader and for me it was difficult to be a leader and fully grasp and understand what colleagues on my team and other colleagues may be going through who have children, who have caring responsibilities. It definitely opened my eyes. And also to the extent that I try to lead with compassion and I try to embed that kindness and remind myself consciously, you don't know what this person is going through at home and not everybody wants to or nobody has to share this at work. But when somebody shows up with low energy and so on, it can be frustrating and it can be natural to react with, you know, hey, this is work. Show up your best 100% of the time. Well, that doesn't happen to anybody. So having a little bit more of that understanding and compassion and kindness, I think that's important as well. And with age and with children, obviously that's growing me.

Yeah. It's funny how sometimes the more senior you get, the more you focus on what really matters. But those are also the skills that you get from. Well, some people get from having children. Not to say that those with children are better leaders than others, but I think there are skills that you get that are applicable in your field, networking is absolutely critical. Now it's not that easy to go to lots and lots of evening networking events when you have three children to think about their various commitments and I'm sure, activities. How does networking look like in your day to day life? Do you hang out at networking event or what do you do?

Yes, it's a good question. I think it's critical not just in my field. I think these days networking for the purpose of your own development, professional development, but also personal development. We learn so much through conversations and you never know when a random conversation with a stranger turns into a life changing event. So to me it's become a very important part of my professional life. It was not, I was terrified when I was younger, I was terrified and very shy in small gatherings and meetings and I would never start a conversation at the conference. It was a difficult transition, but it was a learning curve. And I went through the transition because I started appreciating the value of that, but also understanding that the folks who are speakers at the conference or others who are at the conference, many of them are in the same place as I am. Many of them also don't feel comfortable because it is not a natural thing for human beings, for most human beings to start a conversation with a stranger, to open up and then learn a little bit about techniques, how to do it with ease, you know, how you can open the conversation, the importance about finding common ground and leading from that point. And also I think that it's very difficult how to stop the conversation when you see the value is not there, particularly in the professional environment.

Interesting. So how do you stop the conversation without being absolutely rude?

It's very tricky, but I think being honest and polite is the winning recipe. So everybody who goes to a conference, if there's 100 people or 300 people, you know that you have only little amount of time and everybody's time is very precious. So for example, from business development perspective, if you're discussing with someone, you're making connection, stay connected with this person via LinkedIn, let's say. But maybe it's not the right place and time to have a conversation with a given person during that very short amount of time that you have on the day that you are trying to network for business development and that person would not follow. Maybe in the category of, of people you are here to talk to, but remain connected. And I think LinkedIn, as I, as I mentioned the online networking, I think that's another huge huge platform that so many people are not benefiting from. Because they're just a little bit too shy, you know, and you don't have to become a LinkedIn influencer overnight if it's not natural to you. You can simply start by engaging through comments, through likes, share some valuable reading material. It happens to me so often that someone shares something that opens my eyes or gives me a new perspective on a different topic or just I learned something new and I love learning new and exciting things, whether it's, you know, from, from my, my work related or personal development psychology and so on. And you just bring value to others and think about it, if there's one person who gets something positive from this, then it's worth doing that on LinkedIn. So there's multiple techniques, but I think a lot of that is understand the value, understand that everybody around you is also shy. Maybe not everybody is a genius who's at the conference. So you're at the same level. It's just the regular conversation and treat it like that and break the ice, maybe get a couple of bits and pieces of advice, how to break the ice, how to start the conversation and just go with it,

On that getting. It feels to me like there are pieces of advice that are in the back of your head. What's your most trusted way of starting a conversation? If you're arriving in the morning, perhaps the children. After screaming, your children might be extremely well behaved and that might never happen in your house, but in mine that could happen and you're arriving a little bit dazed and you know, networking is a good thing and you should be doing it, but you don't really know how to start. How do you open a conversation with someone?

So, Verena, I have for the past few years, since I moved to Belgium, I have extremely successful tactic, Belgian chocolate. I know we can get probably into a Swiss Belgian chocolate debate here.

Absolutely. I'm happy on that. And may I add, I'm sorry to say the Swiss will win, but yeah, let's go and move on.

It's funny, but it's a tiny, small thing, but it helps enormously to break the ice. And obviously you're not going to show up online with a box of chocolates or to every meeting with a box of chocolate. But try to think about it as a small, not necessarily stressful, everyday thing. Everybody loves chocolate, everybody loves talking about it. So find those things that are easy to bring up and start the conversation and then ask questions, ask questions and listen. Because only if you ask a few questions you can find that - What's in common, what do we Share, whether it's children or holiday preference or professional experiences. Have you been to this conference or have you read this article? There's something else that was published. So finding that common ground is an enormous help in starting a new relationship or new connection.

I completely agree, and I think what comes through your answer is also the natural curiosity. I am more of an introvert and I generally do not enjoy networking events. But when I go, I'm making them count. And I do that by just being very, very curious and wanting to learn about other humans. And sometimes that gives really interesting connections and you learn new things and sometimes you just had a short chat and that's okay as well. Not every conversation has to be absolutely mind blowing.

Exactly.

And are you naturally an extrovert? You're finding those things easy?

No, I did have to grow into this and consciously learn. I was very lucky to receive some speaking training, presentation training through my career. I say I was lucky, but I've also asked for a lot of the support. And I think this is also critical. Whether it's networking or any skill that you want to develop, ask for help. Nobody is born a fantastic speaker. People just learn how to do that. Yes, some people have maybe easier, you know, some preference, or maybe some things come easier to them. But speaking, networking, those are skills that you can simply learn and master through experience these days. I mean, there's so much knowledge available at the click of a button. Online courses, training videos, TED talks, whatever works for you. But find the ways that work for you. Find a mentor. And it doesn't have to be a formal, you know, it's wonderful if you have a formal mentorship program that you can join, but reach out to people that you've been admiring, you've been following. Don't feel intimidated. From my experience, most people say, sure, I'll spend 30 minutes with you and I'll help you out with that. Sure, I'll give you an hour of my time. I find it surprising how little people ask for help in professional environment, especially women and parents, I guess, for those small things, because you're not asking for huge amount of time. And I just actually wanted to comment on the thing you brought up because I've had the privilege and joy to be a mentor through leaders plus last year. And it's not just for me, for the person who's benefiting from the relationship, from the conversations, from tips and support and so on. It's hugely beneficial to mentors volunteering activities that I've done through my life, whether they were financial, crime related Some, you know, trainings and so on, or completely unrelated volunteering has been documented as one of the things that makes us happy, makes us happier as humans. It gives us the purpose, it gives us satisfaction. You're so happy about yourself, you do something positive. And also you learn so many things, especially in professional environment. When you're looking at mentoring, maybe folks with, you know, few decades of experience and younger generation, younger generation has so much knowledge and skills that we don't have, particularly when it comes to technology, whether it's social media, whether it's other aspects. So trying to bridge that gap through relationship with someone who's different than you, maybe with different life experiences, can be super enriching and satisfying also for mentors. So I recommend it to everybody who has not done it. Just go jump at it and it's. It's fun.

Absolutely. And if you do want to do it on our website, you can fill in a form if you are a senior leader who wants to support other working parents and will arrange a quick chat with you. It's. I think it is really important. But it's interesting how what you've done there actually with the mentoring is you are diversifying your network as well. Aside from the happiness that it creates, there's also something about having opportunities that give you access to different fields, people who have different life life experience, and that's grounded in research that that makes a positive contribution to your own career development. That's not why you might do it, but the perspective you get is absolutely critical. I think that it's really surprising how much you know that point around advice. I think how underestimated that is. Leaders plus would not exist when I set it up. I just asked for people for advice and I walked around with literally babe in arms because I was still in a maternity leave, chatting to people, asking really senior HR directors for advice of how to convince employers, asking lots of senior leaders like you to be mentors on the program, asking for advice on the design to make sure it's as high impact as possible. And that has been really powerful. Vanessa Bonds is an interesting researcher. We've interviewed her for that podcast as well. And she has said that people are twice as likely to say yes than you think. So just going and asking is such a powerful tool. Looking back over your story of having three children and a big career, what would you say are the things that you wish you knew and you know.

Now I think really would be that exact same topic that we just covered. Asking for advice and looking for a mentor. I did not have formal or. Well, maybe I did obviously get support and more senior colleagues through my career, but I felt very often lonely in my career, but also in my career as a parent. How do I navigate, you know, that flexibility, which obviously before pandemic times, we had much less of working from home and flexibility. So life was slightly different, I would say a little bit more difficult for working parents. And I think just by having the ability to talk through some things with someone openly in a positive and motivating environment. Obviously you can always find a friend and vent together, but that doesn't get you much further. Well, sometimes it's helpful, but being in an environment where it's a normal thing to do and it's not some sort of a miracle or superpower and you don't have to do everything perfectly and you don't have to join every single meeting and it's okay to drop off a call when you are not contributing and you are not benefiting from having this as a regular experience. I think that would be massively helpful.

I couldn't agree more. Very well said. We're coming towards the end of our conversation. Is there anything that you wanted to share with our listeners that you haven't had a chance to share yet?

What I would share, I think it's have more faith in yourself. Understand as a working parent, understand that success has lots of different dimensions and , what works for you may not work for others and vice versa. So find what success and fulfillment is for you and find the right balance for you. I often hear comments about whether it's work, life balance or whatever terms are used for that. It's such an individual topic for everybody. I'm perfectly okay catching up on some of my work things while in my children's bedroom at night because they're used to this and this is the method that we have that they want me to be close by and I can finish off some things so then I don't have to work on it middle of the night. But I also benefit from flexibility. You know, attending school plays and medical appointments and so on. And that works for me and that works for my family. So find what works for you. Surround yourself with the people who understand it and are supportive. I'm extremely grateful for my colleagues and colleagues at work who offer full flexibility to everybody at work and not just working parents. So find or create, because it doesn't always exist. Sometimes we have to drive that change, create that environment and be kind to yourself, be kind to others, but also to yourself. I think very often we Apologize too much. We think in a negative ways, but this is life, this is very important. And being more understanding to yourself as a working parent, that not everything always goes on time. We can't always be there on time, I would say is a very important thing.

Very well said. That's excellent advice. And on your point of finding a mentor, finding that group of support so you don't have to do all this work yourself, of finding the right flexibility and thinking about what you want to do. So if you head to the Leaders website and then go fellowship, you can see if you fulfill the criteria for whether or not you could be part of one of our programs and obviously access to mentoring. So you might want to do that. It's been absolutely wonderful to chat to you, Silvia. If people want to find out more about you or your work, where should they go?

I'm available and active on LinkedIn. Do reach out if you have any comments, if you have questions or if you want support. I'm one of those people who will say yes, I'll give you half an hour of my time. I'll give you an hour of my time. Let's chat. If I can help, it will be my pleasure. And Verena, thank you for not just this hour, but for all the work that you are doing. It's been phenomenal. I love the social enterprise that you're leading and how significant contribution this is to changing that narrative. So for the fellows that you're helping through the program, but bringing up that different level of narrative in the society, I think it's extremely important and thank you so much for your bravery and enthusiasm and driving this.

That means a lot.

Thank you so much.

Sylvia, it's very kind of you to say thank you.

I really appreciate you listening. Thank you so much and I always love to hear from our listeners. If you want want to connect with me on LinkedIn, just call to Ferina Hefti and I'll be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions or just.

Have you say hi.

Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend. Just because at the moment, podcasting is still a very, very male dominated environment. Most of the top charging podcasts are led by men. I really love all the people who've joined from the podcast, our fellowship program and if you want to do the same, then please head over to leadersclass.org Fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine ambitious career with young children, together with people who have your back. See you next week.