1 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:06,150 Lindsay Chervinsky: What can we learn about leadership in the Revolutionary War? 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,890 Welcome to Leadership and Legacy, Conversations at the George Washington 3 00:00:10,890 --> 00:00:12,630 Presidential Library at Mount Vernon. 4 00:00:13,530 --> 00:00:16,260 I'm Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, director of the library. 5 00:00:17,100 --> 00:00:20,790 In this podcast series, we talk with experts about leadership and history, 6 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:24,630 how studying these stories helps us understand our current moment, 7 00:00:25,140 --> 00:00:28,980 and how we can apply lessons from leaders in the past to our own lives. 8 00:00:29,610 --> 00:00:33,450 In the Washington Post, George Will wrote that Rick Atkinson is the finest 9 00:00:33,450 --> 00:00:35,820 military historian, alive or dead. 10 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:38,610 He is certainly among the most accomplished. 11 00:00:38,910 --> 00:00:42,210 He has written about the nation's biggest wars from the Revolution, 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,040 to World War II, to Vietnam. 13 00:00:44,490 --> 00:00:47,850 He has studied conflict from the archives and from the battlefield, 14 00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:52,830 written about generals alive and dead, from afar and beside them. 15 00:00:53,865 --> 00:00:57,075 These experiences offer a rare insight into military 16 00:00:57,075 --> 00:00:58,965 leadership across the centuries. 17 00:01:00,225 --> 00:01:04,305 Despite earning all the accolades, Rick remains incredibly kind. 18 00:01:04,455 --> 00:01:08,385 He has retained his sense of humor even when writing about the cruelest 19 00:01:08,385 --> 00:01:12,705 aspects of war, and he still values the importance of writing well, 20 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:14,715 which is a gift to his readers. 21 00:01:15,795 --> 00:01:19,575 He was kind enough to join us to record an episode about his latest book, the 22 00:01:19,575 --> 00:01:24,419 Fate of the Day, on launch day, to talk about Revolutionary War leadership, George 23 00:01:24,419 --> 00:01:28,425 Washington, and what we can learn when we compare generals from different eras. 24 00:01:29,264 --> 00:01:33,195 I learned so much about strategic planning, long-term vision, 25 00:01:33,405 --> 00:01:34,634 and the importance of will. 26 00:01:35,264 --> 00:01:36,164 I hope you do too. 27 00:01:36,884 --> 00:01:37,994 Here's our conversation. 28 00:01:40,365 --> 00:01:44,265 So I feel like we could do an entire series on leadership with you 29 00:01:44,265 --> 00:01:48,285 because you've written about so many incredible leaders over the course 30 00:01:48,285 --> 00:01:52,215 of history and some of our most momentous moments in American history. 31 00:01:52,245 --> 00:01:55,005 But you're a very busy man, so we appreciate your time, 32 00:01:55,095 --> 00:01:56,715 especially on publication day. 33 00:01:57,024 --> 00:02:00,205 Let's perhaps start though with, you have written about all these 34 00:02:00,205 --> 00:02:03,655 other people, contemporary military leaders, World War II military 35 00:02:03,655 --> 00:02:05,425 leaders, and Revolutionary war leaders. 36 00:02:05,485 --> 00:02:06,955 What draws you to these people? 37 00:02:06,955 --> 00:02:07,765 How do you pick them? 38 00:02:08,005 --> 00:02:11,035 Rick Atkinson: I think I pick the wars rather than the leaders 39 00:02:11,035 --> 00:02:15,894 to start with, but obviously all wars have leaders, good and bad. 40 00:02:16,060 --> 00:02:19,750 So that's an inescapable part of the joy of writing about war 'cause it's 41 00:02:19,750 --> 00:02:22,150 ultimately about character, like life. 42 00:02:22,180 --> 00:02:27,160 I've written about five different American wars, eight books, and most of them have 43 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,269 been more recent, but now I'm back in the 18th century with the American Revolution. 44 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:35,160 So I feel like I have lived with a number of leaders for a long time, 45 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,100 including contemporary leaders. 46 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:41,520 I went to Iraq in 2003 with the 101st Airborne, and I lived elbow to 47 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,830 elbow with, uh, Major General David Petraeus for two months, watching him 48 00:02:46,830 --> 00:02:51,654 in combat for the first time, taking the storied 101st Airborne into Iraq. 49 00:02:51,835 --> 00:02:57,145 So that opportunity allowed me to see, and I've seen other American generals in 50 00:02:57,145 --> 00:03:04,405 combat elsewhere, it allows me to kind of triangulate and see what they do in 51 00:03:04,405 --> 00:03:09,445 approaching leadership in a contemporary format compared to historical figures. 52 00:03:09,565 --> 00:03:14,040 So having written about Vietnam, for example, or particularly the 53 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,530 Revolution, or especially World War II. 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,410 I spent 15 years writing about World War II, the American role 55 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:20,489 in the liberation of Europe. 56 00:03:20,489 --> 00:03:23,670 And so I spent 15 years living, metaphorically, with Dwight 57 00:03:23,670 --> 00:03:27,660 Eisenhower and George Patton and Omar Bradley, and a bunch of other 58 00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:29,609 famous and not so famous names. 59 00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:33,840 So to me, they're all endlessly fascinating because the stress of 60 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,430 combat is unlike any stress that any human has ever experienced. 61 00:03:38,490 --> 00:03:43,740 And the character of these individuals is revealed by the stress of combat. 62 00:03:43,830 --> 00:03:48,090 And watching that play out historically or contemporaneously 63 00:03:48,150 --> 00:03:53,280 is a privilege as a historian or as a journalist as I was at one time. 64 00:03:53,340 --> 00:03:55,680 And some of them have some things in common. 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,570 Some of them have very little in common. 66 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,420 Their successes and their failures all derive ultimately, in my estimation, 67 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:05,490 from some aspect of character. 68 00:04:05,490 --> 00:04:08,185 So that's part of what I do as a writer. 69 00:04:08,305 --> 00:04:10,765 Lindsay Chervinsky: I wanna dig more into the character piece, but I think you're 70 00:04:10,765 --> 00:04:15,805 probably one of the few people writing about the Revolution who has actually 71 00:04:15,865 --> 00:04:18,385 witnessed combat leadership firsthand. 72 00:04:18,475 --> 00:04:21,895 I've only written about dead guys, so I certainly have not had that privilege. 73 00:04:21,954 --> 00:04:26,185 And so I'm wondering what that firsthand experience, how does that allow you to see 74 00:04:26,185 --> 00:04:29,695 when you're looking at 18th century source material and we can't ask them questions? 75 00:04:29,725 --> 00:04:34,435 How do you think that firsthand experience changes your perspective or your ability 76 00:04:34,435 --> 00:04:37,540 to understand what they're going through or- or what you're seeing on the page? 77 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,930 Rick Atkinson: I think one of the things, for example, in watching Petraeus, 78 00:04:40,930 --> 00:04:46,270 and I've seen others who are perhaps not as celebrated as he is among 21st 79 00:04:46,270 --> 00:04:51,370 Century American generals, but watching Dave Petraeus work on the mystical 80 00:04:51,370 --> 00:04:55,360 bond between leader and led, that's a fundamental part of leadership. 81 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:00,595 We see it with George Washington beginning in 1775 in the Revolution, we see it 82 00:05:00,595 --> 00:05:05,905 with other American Army leaders during the Revolution, but this trust that you 83 00:05:05,905 --> 00:05:12,115 have to build as the leader, the sense that the led must have, that you are not 84 00:05:12,330 --> 00:05:16,320 throwing their lives away, that you are sharing the hardship with them, that you 85 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:22,110 understand the sacrifice that they are making on behalf of your common cause. 86 00:05:22,170 --> 00:05:27,060 That's a pretty profound thing, and if you can't do it, you're not gonna succeed as 87 00:05:27,060 --> 00:05:29,845 a military leader, so that's one thing. 88 00:05:30,535 --> 00:05:36,445 Some of it is minutia, watching the issue of sleep discipline, for 89 00:05:36,445 --> 00:05:38,185 example, as they call it in the army. 90 00:05:38,245 --> 00:05:42,145 If you don't get enough sleep, and it's very hard to get enough sleep in -- when 91 00:05:42,145 --> 00:05:47,730 you're in a war, you tend to be prone to making serious errors of judgment. 92 00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:52,710 And the leaders who can force themselves one way or another, whether it's, you 93 00:05:52,710 --> 00:05:56,830 know, they have a certain regimen or contemporaneously, they're using Ambien 94 00:05:56,850 --> 00:06:01,470 or whatever it takes to make sure they get enough sleep, to make sound judgments, 95 00:06:01,470 --> 00:06:06,930 to be available 18 hours a day is something that's, you know, universal. 96 00:06:06,930 --> 00:06:11,965 So there are aspects of leadership that are 21st century aspects that would 97 00:06:11,965 --> 00:06:17,065 be entirely familiar to Thucydides, entirely familiar to Washington and his 98 00:06:17,065 --> 00:06:22,285 contemporaries, entirely familiar to Civil War generals, Vietnam generals, and so on. 99 00:06:22,315 --> 00:06:25,015 And it's little things and big things. 100 00:06:25,015 --> 00:06:30,385 And collectively they amount to success or failure as a general or general officer. 101 00:06:30,445 --> 00:06:31,555 Lindsay Chervinsky: So let's dig into character. 102 00:06:31,555 --> 00:06:34,810 You, you mentioned that most leadership qualities go back to that. 103 00:06:34,810 --> 00:06:38,470 And I imagine the good qualities go back to that and, and the bad qualities do too. 104 00:06:38,470 --> 00:06:43,510 So as we're looking across the scope of many centuries, you know, in this 105 00:06:43,510 --> 00:06:48,160 book Fate of the Day, which is your second volume in the Revolutionary War 106 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,890 trilogy, there are a lot of bayonets. 107 00:06:51,070 --> 00:06:55,210 There are probably fewer bayonets in Iraq in the 21st century. 108 00:06:55,210 --> 00:06:56,980 So there are aspects of war that are quite different. 109 00:06:57,010 --> 00:07:01,480 What elements of character do you think are required for good military leadership? 110 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,909 Rick Atkinson: Well, Lindsay, I, I think there are several things, and I put 111 00:07:04,909 --> 00:07:08,719 at the top of the list or close to the top of the list is just simply will. 112 00:07:08,930 --> 00:07:13,969 The will to prevail, the will to dominate your opponent, the will to 113 00:07:14,060 --> 00:07:19,130 power through whatever difficulties are besetting you and there are difficulties 114 00:07:19,159 --> 00:07:21,799 every day, in every way, in every war. 115 00:07:21,859 --> 00:07:27,575 And those who've got the tenacity and the capacity to impose their 116 00:07:27,575 --> 00:07:33,185 will on the battlefield, on their forces, tend to be successful and 117 00:07:33,185 --> 00:07:35,255 those who can't are not successful. 118 00:07:35,344 --> 00:07:39,245 I would say that the ability to communicate is vital. 119 00:07:39,484 --> 00:07:44,854 So somebody like Eisenhower, whom we often think of as syntax mangling, mumbling 120 00:07:45,095 --> 00:07:50,825 president is actually extraordinarily articulate, both in writing and orally. 121 00:07:50,885 --> 00:07:54,155 At one point, Churchill, who knows something about articulation says 122 00:07:54,215 --> 00:07:58,145 good generals are usually not as precise in articulation as 123 00:07:58,175 --> 00:08:00,125 he is, speaking of Eisenhower. 124 00:08:00,665 --> 00:08:02,095 Washington is the same way. 125 00:08:02,305 --> 00:08:05,705 Washington, you usually rarely leave Washington's presence without a pretty 126 00:08:05,705 --> 00:08:07,495 clear idea of what the boss wants. 127 00:08:07,565 --> 00:08:13,205 And if you read his correspondence and his orders as I have for volume, 128 00:08:13,205 --> 00:08:16,655 after volume, after volume of the Washington Papers, you see that he's 129 00:08:16,655 --> 00:08:20,555 got the capacity to convey what it is that he wants, the commander's intent. 130 00:08:20,615 --> 00:08:23,795 Or if he's writing to political figures, his political masters, 131 00:08:23,795 --> 00:08:28,340 he's got the capacity to be quite clear about his needs, his 132 00:08:28,340 --> 00:08:30,530 ambitions, so that's another thing. 133 00:08:30,530 --> 00:08:35,210 I think communication is extraordinary and communicating to the troops 134 00:08:35,210 --> 00:08:39,430 is perhaps even more important than any other aspect of it. 135 00:08:39,430 --> 00:08:43,730 The troops have to know that the commander is there. 136 00:08:44,005 --> 00:08:49,225 Commander has to be able to convey his understanding of their difficulties, 137 00:08:49,285 --> 00:08:54,685 his understanding of their needs, his understanding of the danger that 138 00:08:54,685 --> 00:08:58,495 they're facing, and he has to convey the notion that he's sharing it with them, 139 00:08:58,495 --> 00:09:00,445 he's sharing the hardship with them. 140 00:09:00,475 --> 00:09:06,325 So I think those are all facets of successful leadership through the ages. 141 00:09:06,325 --> 00:09:10,694 Again, you know, you go back and read Homer and you can say, well, okay, 142 00:09:10,694 --> 00:09:13,785 does Agamemnon have this capacity? 143 00:09:13,805 --> 00:09:15,695 Does Odysseus have this capacity? 144 00:09:15,755 --> 00:09:17,835 But you know, there's something universal about it. 145 00:09:17,855 --> 00:09:18,095 Lindsay Chervinsky: Mm-hmm. 146 00:09:18,250 --> 00:09:19,175 And what about flaws? 147 00:09:19,235 --> 00:09:25,020 Rick Atkinson: Well, you know, I think if you look at generals who- first of 148 00:09:25,020 --> 00:09:30,240 all, from a military standpoint, don't have the traits of a great captain. 149 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,980 And by great captain we mean somebody who sees the battlefield spatially and 150 00:09:34,980 --> 00:09:38,340 temporally in a pretty unique way. 151 00:09:38,340 --> 00:09:39,930 It's a rare thing. 152 00:09:40,135 --> 00:09:47,215 So Napoleon, he sees the battlefield unfolding temporally over hours, or 153 00:09:47,215 --> 00:09:50,155 days, or weeks, and he sees it spatially. 154 00:09:50,155 --> 00:09:55,585 He understands the placement of large forces and where the enemy is likely 155 00:09:55,585 --> 00:10:00,295 to come, where the weaknesses are of his forces and the opposing forces. 156 00:10:00,355 --> 00:10:04,405 So if you've got those capacities that, uh, you've got a big leg up 157 00:10:04,405 --> 00:10:06,955 on anybody, and it's pretty rare. 158 00:10:06,955 --> 00:10:11,810 And I would say, you know, that Eisenhower and Washington are not great captains. 159 00:10:11,810 --> 00:10:13,700 They don't have this capacity. 160 00:10:13,700 --> 00:10:16,250 Washington makes a lot of tactical mistakes. 161 00:10:16,250 --> 00:10:21,200 He is not a natural great captain, and neither was Eisenhower. 162 00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:25,490 You know, to their credit, I think they recognize that 163 00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:27,530 they've got bigger roles to play. 164 00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:33,530 In both cases, their capacity for strategic thinking, for seeing the 165 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:37,189 big arrows on the map, for being political generals, and they are 166 00:10:37,189 --> 00:10:40,945 the two best political generals this country has ever produced. 167 00:10:41,005 --> 00:10:46,105 And by that I mean their ability to speak truth to power, to their 168 00:10:46,105 --> 00:10:50,605 political masters, to pull the levers that are necessary to get those 169 00:10:50,605 --> 00:10:55,615 political masters to provide them with what they need, for combat success. 170 00:10:55,705 --> 00:11:00,145 And in both cases, the acknowledgement that they have political masters. 171 00:11:00,175 --> 00:11:05,275 Um, in the 18th century, it's a very fraught issue whether or not Washington 172 00:11:05,275 --> 00:11:10,255 will become a Cromwell and Washington is at pains right from the beginning, right 173 00:11:10,255 --> 00:11:15,630 from when he takes over command of the Continental Army to assure Congress, state 174 00:11:15,630 --> 00:11:22,140 governors, committees of safety, anybody who will listen that he is not going to 175 00:11:22,140 --> 00:11:27,420 turn into a Cromwell, that he doesn't have aspirations to be a military dictator, 176 00:11:27,420 --> 00:11:29,730 that in fact he is subservient to them. 177 00:11:29,780 --> 00:11:35,420 This is, first of all, it's a priceless gift that he has given us 250 years 178 00:11:35,420 --> 00:11:41,000 later, but it also signals that he is prepared to do the bidding of these 179 00:11:41,180 --> 00:11:46,010 political masters and Eisenhower has, is not the same fraught concern that 180 00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:50,060 Eisenhower is gonna turn into a Cromwell, partly because of the tradition that 181 00:11:50,060 --> 00:11:52,490 Washington has established long before. 182 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:58,064 But Eisenhower knows how to play the political masters at home, whether 183 00:11:58,064 --> 00:12:01,785 it's George Marshall, the Chief of Staff of the Army, President 184 00:12:01,785 --> 00:12:03,735 Roosevelt, Congress, or whatever. 185 00:12:03,735 --> 00:12:08,204 So these traits are important, and if you don't do it right, if you 186 00:12:08,204 --> 00:12:12,735 can't do it right, if you're one of innumerable Lincoln generals in 187 00:12:12,735 --> 00:12:14,655 the Civil War, you're gonna fail. 188 00:12:14,819 --> 00:12:15,840 And they do fail. 189 00:12:15,870 --> 00:12:22,439 So if you lack the basics, battlefield brio, you're gonna fail. 190 00:12:22,439 --> 00:12:27,000 You're not gonna be able to lead men in the dark of night the way, uh, a 191 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,160 good battlefield commander has to. 192 00:12:29,220 --> 00:12:32,189 So, you know, the list of those who fail is probably longer than 193 00:12:32,189 --> 00:12:33,660 the list of those who succeed. 194 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:37,319 And the list of traits that cause you to fail is certainly longer than the list 195 00:12:37,319 --> 00:12:38,910 of traits that cause you to succeed. 196 00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:41,760 Lindsay Chervinsky: Atkinson's latest book, the Fate of the Day 197 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,310 is the second volume of a planned trilogy about the American Revolution 198 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,500 and brings the war to 1780. 199 00:12:48,010 --> 00:12:50,109 It's the follow-up to his award-winning The British Are 200 00:12:50,109 --> 00:12:52,204 Coming, which ended in 1777. 201 00:12:53,025 --> 00:12:56,685 The American Revolution was long and complicated, and historians 202 00:12:56,685 --> 00:12:58,425 love to debate periodization. 203 00:12:58,845 --> 00:13:01,995 So I was eager to hear what Atkinson's thought process was 204 00:13:01,995 --> 00:13:03,375 in choosing to divide it up. 205 00:13:05,175 --> 00:13:05,835 Absolutely. 206 00:13:05,835 --> 00:13:07,845 So let's dig into this volume a little bit. 207 00:13:08,115 --> 00:13:13,530 When we think about the Revolutionary War, because it is such a long conflict and, 208 00:13:13,530 --> 00:13:18,360 and it requires three volumes, I'm curious how you thought about segmenting it. 209 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,900 How did you choose where to start a volume, where to end a volume? 210 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,330 What was this chronological scope you were thinking of? 211 00:13:24,585 --> 00:13:28,935 Rick Atkinson: I've got eight years of war to cover, and I knew that I had to 212 00:13:28,935 --> 00:13:32,745 give enough background information to set up the conflict initially, but I 213 00:13:32,745 --> 00:13:34,455 didn't wanna start with the Stamp Act. 214 00:13:34,455 --> 00:13:37,815 I don't want to, I'm not litigating the 10 years that 215 00:13:37,815 --> 00:13:39,705 lead up to Lexington and Concord. 216 00:13:39,735 --> 00:13:43,670 I am a military historian and I'm writing primarily about what 217 00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:46,730 happens on the battlefield and things that are related to battle. 218 00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:52,010 So, um, you know, I start volume one, essentially, I started in England, in 219 00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:56,180 fact, so that we have an understanding that our eventual opponent, where they're 220 00:13:56,180 --> 00:14:00,560 coming from, where George III is coming from, and Parliament with the creation 221 00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:05,420 of the first British Empire and their determination to preserve that against 222 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:07,400 these insurrectionists in America. 223 00:14:07,410 --> 00:14:10,240 And so the book unspools. 224 00:14:10,260 --> 00:14:14,459 Chapter one begins on the eve of Lexington and Concord, and off we go. 225 00:14:14,610 --> 00:14:19,170 Looking at how to cleave them, I sometimes think that I'm trying to be a 226 00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:23,819 jeweler, as if I really understand what I'm talking about, but jewelers look at 227 00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:26,160 the facets of a stone that you're cutting. 228 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,300 A diamond, or a ruby, or an emerald, and you're trying to find the facets so 229 00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:32,490 that it cleaves cleanly and naturally. 230 00:14:32,490 --> 00:14:35,490 And I'm looking for that in the narrative that I'm writing about. 231 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:37,980 With volume one, it is pretty simple, I think. 232 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:43,090 Things are going very badly for the home team for much of the first couple years 233 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:48,370 of the war, and then Washington makes a diving catch by his extraordinary, 234 00:14:48,370 --> 00:14:54,010 desperate attack on Christmas night, 1776, and crossing the Delaware and 235 00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:56,020 attacking the Hessian garrison at Trenton. 236 00:14:56,020 --> 00:15:00,220 And then doing it again, and he doubles down, which is one of the most remarkable 237 00:15:00,220 --> 00:15:05,170 parts of his generalship at this point, and attacks the British in Princeton. 238 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,900 So that's a place to end volume one. 239 00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:11,340 And you know, we end on an upbeat note and there's hope. 240 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:15,120 'Cause Washington has just written virtually on the eve of those battles, 241 00:15:15,210 --> 00:15:18,630 "I think the game is pretty near up." He writes that to his brother. 242 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:22,230 So things are very dark and as a writer, I don't want despondency 243 00:15:22,235 --> 00:15:24,840 to, to overwhelm the poor reader. 244 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,850 Even those who know well what's gonna happen. 245 00:15:26,939 --> 00:15:29,420 Lindsay Chervinsky: Despondency probably doesn't inspire a whole lot of people 246 00:15:29,444 --> 00:15:31,154 to pick up volume two, I would imagine. 247 00:15:31,214 --> 00:15:32,234 Rick Atkinson: Well that's part of it. 248 00:15:32,234 --> 00:15:35,115 And anyway, I think it's a good place to stop and they go into winter 249 00:15:35,115 --> 00:15:38,685 quarters, and they're in winter quarters basically for the next five months. 250 00:15:38,685 --> 00:15:42,015 And not much happens in the 18th century in winter quarters. 251 00:15:42,045 --> 00:15:45,885 So I pick up volume two where volume one ends. 252 00:15:45,974 --> 00:15:50,025 This time we actually begin in Versailles so we can understand the French who 253 00:15:50,025 --> 00:15:54,185 are gonna be absolutely critical to success if there is to be success. 254 00:15:54,185 --> 00:15:58,255 And I want to introduce Louis XVI and the court at Versailles, and Marie 255 00:15:58,255 --> 00:16:00,935 Antoinette, also known as Madame Deficit. 256 00:16:00,935 --> 00:16:04,985 And we happen to be there with Benjamin Franklin, our first and greatest diplomat. 257 00:16:04,985 --> 00:16:08,405 So he's a very fine guide around Paris and Versailles. 258 00:16:08,405 --> 00:16:11,950 And we happen to be there with Lafayette 'cause he's leaving France against 259 00:16:11,950 --> 00:16:13,870 the King's orders to come to America. 260 00:16:13,870 --> 00:16:15,970 So that's a good place to start. 261 00:16:15,970 --> 00:16:19,670 And then we pick up the action and the battles are fast and furious in 262 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,580 the middle volume of this trilogy with Brandywine and, well first with the 263 00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:28,540 British coming down Lake Champlain and they capture Ticonderoga, and they're 264 00:16:28,540 --> 00:16:32,170 in the Hudson River Valley and it's not looking good for New England and so on. 265 00:16:32,170 --> 00:16:33,940 And all that's gonna lead to Saratoga. 266 00:16:33,940 --> 00:16:37,480 But first we have disasters, Brandywine, and Paoli, and 267 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,145 then Germantown and and so on. 268 00:16:39,205 --> 00:16:40,585 So where to end it? 269 00:16:40,615 --> 00:16:44,425 Because a lot happens and the war becomes a global war, it goes from 270 00:16:44,425 --> 00:16:48,745 being an obscure brush fire on the edge of empire to a global war on 271 00:16:48,745 --> 00:16:50,725 four continents and the Seven Seas. 272 00:16:50,785 --> 00:16:54,625 The British changed their strategy in the Southern Strategy to try to 273 00:16:54,625 --> 00:16:56,815 roll up the colonies from the south. 274 00:16:56,845 --> 00:17:00,140 Takes us to Savannah and to Charleston. 275 00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:04,460 And that seems to me like a pretty good place to end volume two, Charleston. 276 00:17:04,460 --> 00:17:09,619 Spoiler alert, Charleston is captured by the British after a siege in May of 277 00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:14,119 1780, and it's an absolute catastrophe for the Americans, the entire Army. 278 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,319 5,000 men surrender and things look — okay now we can be despondent, 279 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,339 because despondency is certainly the order of the day then. 280 00:17:22,399 --> 00:17:24,379 So that seemed like a good place to end it. 281 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,615 I actually have a coda in the epilogue. 282 00:17:26,645 --> 00:17:30,155 A month after Charleston falls, we're in London again. 283 00:17:30,155 --> 00:17:34,115 We go to Britain periodically in this book and we see the Gordon 284 00:17:34,115 --> 00:17:37,955 Riots, which is the worst civil disturbance in British history. 285 00:17:37,955 --> 00:17:42,875 Almost a thousand people are killed in the Gordon Riots for various reasons. 286 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,810 So the Brits have their problems too. 287 00:17:44,810 --> 00:17:48,950 So if you're feeling despondent as a patriot, the other guy on the other 288 00:17:48,950 --> 00:17:50,870 side of the hill, he's got problems too. 289 00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:52,970 So that's where we are when this book ends. 290 00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:56,690 And then the last volume will take us to Yorktown, obviously, and 291 00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:59,120 through the end of the war in 1783. 292 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:05,705 Heather Soubra: Experience leadership like never before at the George 293 00:18:05,705 --> 00:18:07,430 Washington Leadership Institute. 294 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,720 Inspired by the timeless lessons of George Washington, our programs focus 295 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,909 on critical skills like effective communication, emotional intelligence, 296 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:22,649 adaptability, strategic vision, and character driven leadership. 297 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:26,699 Immerse your team in a journey through history while equipping 298 00:18:26,699 --> 00:18:30,689 them with strategies to navigate today's complex challenges. 299 00:18:31,290 --> 00:18:35,550 Join us at the beautiful George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon 300 00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:38,070 for half day or full day sessions. 301 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:41,014 Or, customize a program to fit your needs. 302 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:45,960 Visit GWleadershipinstitute.org to learn more. 303 00:18:48,794 --> 00:18:52,125 Lindsay Chervinsky: So I wanna dig more into the ups and the downs 304 00:18:52,155 --> 00:18:56,655 and the leadership failures and spectacular successes in this volume. 305 00:18:56,655 --> 00:18:59,115 But just for a little bit of context, especially because we 306 00:18:59,115 --> 00:19:02,504 have this anniversary coming up pretty soon, what did it look like 307 00:19:02,504 --> 00:19:07,725 for Washington to take command of this brand new Continental Army? 308 00:19:07,725 --> 00:19:08,685 What did that mean? 309 00:19:08,685 --> 00:19:11,595 What did it require to actually build the thing? 310 00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:16,530 This question opened the door to a broader conversation about leadership during the 311 00:19:16,530 --> 00:19:18,870 war, especially the role of generals. 312 00:19:19,110 --> 00:19:22,200 How did Washington stack up against the British officials he faced? 313 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:28,380 Rick Atkinson: Well, he shows up in early July, 1775, having been appointed 314 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:32,310 commander in chief of what is now loosely called the Continental Army, 315 00:19:32,370 --> 00:19:35,010 which is aspirational more than reality. 316 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,430 And he's had five years of military experience, which is 317 00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:40,680 more than most Americans have had. 318 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:46,290 It's as a militia colonel in Virginia, always under superior British command 319 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,960 in the French and Indian War, the Seven Years' War as the Europeans know it. 320 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,380 But he's been outta uniform for 16 years, and there's a lot he 321 00:19:53,380 --> 00:19:55,440 doesn't know or that he's forgotten. 322 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,880 He doesn't know much about cavalry. 323 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,770 He doesn't know a whole lot about artillery. 324 00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:02,370 He knows nothing about continental logistics and on and on. 325 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:08,610 So he's a Virginian appointed by Congress to be the commander-in-chief of what 326 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:11,340 is largely a New England militia army. 327 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,370 And the first thing he's gotta do is get over the prejudice that 328 00:20:15,370 --> 00:20:17,020 he's got against New Englanders. 329 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,399 Of course, you know, Connecticut, and Massachusetts, and New Hampshire. 330 00:20:20,399 --> 00:20:22,860 Those are different countries from Virginia. 331 00:20:22,919 --> 00:20:26,340 And he talks privately about dirty New Englanders and he's really 332 00:20:26,340 --> 00:20:28,050 got nothing good to say about them. 333 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,550 And he does not appreciate, in my estimation, the sacrifices that 334 00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:37,139 these men are making to leave their farms, their shops, their families to 335 00:20:37,169 --> 00:20:40,080 come and join the cause at his side. 336 00:20:40,135 --> 00:20:43,315 He's got several hundred slaves at Mount Vernon taking care 337 00:20:43,315 --> 00:20:44,485 of business while he's away. 338 00:20:44,485 --> 00:20:50,035 I think during his lifetime there, the number is at least 578 slaves here. 339 00:20:50,095 --> 00:20:54,835 He worries about Martha, his wife, and he worries about Mount Vernon, but 340 00:20:54,865 --> 00:20:58,975 he's got business taken care of at home and he doesn't really understand that. 341 00:20:58,975 --> 00:21:04,070 It's not clear to me that he grasps what these men are sacrificing. 342 00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:09,110 That's gonna be his biggest, I think, requirement to succeed. 343 00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:14,000 He's got to not only impose discipline and he understands the need for discipline. 344 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,550 "Discipline is the soul of an army," he declares. 345 00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:19,490 And he's got a very good eye for subordinate talent. 346 00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:24,439 So he sees a 25-year-old overweight Boston bookseller named Henry Knox, and somehow 347 00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:30,515 realizes, "Hey you know, this guy is gonna be the father of American artillery." It's 348 00:21:30,515 --> 00:21:32,645 not clear anyone else would've guessed. 349 00:21:32,645 --> 00:21:33,485 He's absolutely right. 350 00:21:33,485 --> 00:21:39,725 He sees this lapsed Quaker, 36 years old from Rhode Island named Nathaniel 351 00:21:39,725 --> 00:21:44,345 Green, and somehow he recognizes that Nathanael Greene is gonna be 352 00:21:44,345 --> 00:21:48,125 second only to Washington as the indispensable man in the Continental 353 00:21:48,125 --> 00:21:50,255 Army over the course of the war. 354 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:54,615 So he's got that going for him, and he's gotta be attentive to 355 00:21:54,645 --> 00:21:56,955 these large subordinate positions. 356 00:21:57,014 --> 00:21:59,235 But he's also his own intelligence chief. 357 00:21:59,235 --> 00:22:01,695 He's his own muster master general. 358 00:22:01,695 --> 00:22:03,825 He's his own commissary general. 359 00:22:03,885 --> 00:22:08,024 There will be men appointed to these positions, but he fortunately has a, 360 00:22:08,024 --> 00:22:12,284 he's a devil for detail and he can seem like a real micromanager, but it's 361 00:22:12,284 --> 00:22:14,355 because he's gotta be a micromanager. 362 00:22:14,355 --> 00:22:19,770 If he doesn't attend to these critical facets of forming an army and growing 363 00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:23,460 an army, it's not gonna get done or it's not gonna be done well. 364 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,660 So he's doing all these things simultaneously while he's 365 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:29,430 taking command at Cambridge. 366 00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:33,705 And he's got a few months, as it turns out, because the war slows down a bit. 367 00:22:33,705 --> 00:22:36,735 The British are more or less stuck in Boston. 368 00:22:36,794 --> 00:22:40,905 The forces around Boston have the opportunity to congeal and 369 00:22:40,965 --> 00:22:44,175 the troops get to know Washington and vice versa and so on. 370 00:22:44,175 --> 00:22:48,514 So those are the challenges that he is got right from the Get-go. 371 00:22:48,514 --> 00:22:53,660 And I think it's a tribute to his capacities that he masters 372 00:22:53,660 --> 00:22:55,340 these things pretty quickly. 373 00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:57,830 Lindsay Chervinsky: So you started off by saying there were a lot of things he 374 00:22:57,830 --> 00:23:02,300 didn't know, including how to do logistics and how to bring together this force. 375 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:04,040 How did he learn those things? 376 00:23:04,095 --> 00:23:05,415 Rick Atkinson: Partly it's book learning. 377 00:23:05,415 --> 00:23:09,015 He's got a stack of books with him, the standard texts for 378 00:23:09,015 --> 00:23:11,505 18th century wannabe generals. 379 00:23:11,535 --> 00:23:14,375 He reads them and he learns some things from that. 380 00:23:14,375 --> 00:23:15,975 Part of it is he's got common sense. 381 00:23:15,975 --> 00:23:19,875 Those five years that he has spent with the Brits in the French and 382 00:23:19,875 --> 00:23:24,375 Indian War serve him well because he's watched how they do things. 383 00:23:24,435 --> 00:23:25,935 He's imbibed a lot of that. 384 00:23:25,995 --> 00:23:30,415 He's fundamentally a British officer in a Continental uniform because he 385 00:23:30,415 --> 00:23:34,945 recognizes that there are things that the British have evolved over the centuries 386 00:23:34,945 --> 00:23:37,315 that are useful to his application. 387 00:23:37,375 --> 00:23:39,625 It's trial and error to some extent. 388 00:23:39,625 --> 00:23:41,545 It's trial and error with personnel. 389 00:23:41,575 --> 00:23:44,875 It's trial and error as a battlefield commander. 390 00:23:45,115 --> 00:23:50,275 He stumbles periodically, famously, but he's got the benefit of having 391 00:23:50,335 --> 00:23:55,255 opponents who stumble, having opponents who are making bad strategic decisions. 392 00:23:55,275 --> 00:24:02,625 Opponents who have the challenge as all counter-insurrectionary forces must, 393 00:24:02,685 --> 00:24:06,405 whether you're fighting an insurrection in Vietnam or you're fighting an 394 00:24:06,405 --> 00:24:09,105 insurrection in Iraq, you've got to win. 395 00:24:09,165 --> 00:24:13,515 If you're waging a counter-insurrectionary war, particularly if it's an expeditionary 396 00:24:13,515 --> 00:24:15,075 war, you're fighting at a distance. 397 00:24:15,075 --> 00:24:16,215 So the British have to win. 398 00:24:16,525 --> 00:24:19,975 If you're leading the insurrection, you have to not lose. 399 00:24:20,035 --> 00:24:21,175 And there's a difference there. 400 00:24:21,175 --> 00:24:23,455 And Washington comes to recognize that. 401 00:24:23,455 --> 00:24:27,445 I think he knows that he's gotta fight on the strategic defensive. 402 00:24:27,445 --> 00:24:29,305 It's not a natural act for him. 403 00:24:29,305 --> 00:24:33,415 He is habitually aggressive and he wants to slug it out. 404 00:24:33,445 --> 00:24:37,814 But he comes to recognize after getting slapped around pretty good that 405 00:24:37,875 --> 00:24:39,945 that's not how he's gonna win the war. 406 00:24:40,004 --> 00:24:41,834 I think, you know, he's got a big brain. 407 00:24:41,834 --> 00:24:44,324 He's got a brain organized for executive action. 408 00:24:44,385 --> 00:24:47,084 He's willing to take responsibility, usually. 409 00:24:47,205 --> 00:24:51,584 He's willing to make decisions usually, and he's willing 410 00:24:51,584 --> 00:24:52,965 to learn from his mistakes. 411 00:24:52,965 --> 00:24:56,865 So these are attributes that are pretty important as it turns out. 412 00:24:57,180 --> 00:24:59,130 Lindsay Chervinsky: You, you know, mentioned usually he's 413 00:24:59,130 --> 00:25:02,100 taking responsibility and usually he's making decisions. 414 00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:06,330 One of the times where I think he ducks that a little bit actually shows some of 415 00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:10,230 the political savvy that you talked about earlier, which was when he ordered the 416 00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:15,265 series of retreats across New York City, and called a council of war before every 417 00:25:15,265 --> 00:25:19,495 single retreat and then conveniently sent a report to Congress without them asking, 418 00:25:19,495 --> 00:25:24,105 saying "all of the officers agreed that a retreat was absolutely essential." And 419 00:25:24,105 --> 00:25:26,815 that's one of those moments where, you know, I think in retrospect we all agree 420 00:25:26,815 --> 00:25:30,235 retreat was essential 'cause if he had been captured, then that's basically that. 421 00:25:30,265 --> 00:25:34,895 But that political savvy is something that we, I think, don't always see in 422 00:25:34,895 --> 00:25:36,365 the Revolution and is quite essential. 423 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:39,360 Rick Atkinson: Well, yeah, I agree entirely with what you're saying. 424 00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:44,700 The man who habitually could never tell a lie, can hedge the truth sometimes, and 425 00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:50,490 his after-action reports to Congress in particular after Brandywine or whatever. 426 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:54,360 He's putting in the best possible light to the point of prevarication. 427 00:25:55,815 --> 00:25:56,035 Uh. 428 00:25:56,810 --> 00:25:58,399 Lindsay Chervinsky: How much of that do you think is essential? 429 00:25:58,399 --> 00:26:01,939 Like, you know, if morale is an important part of war fighting. 430 00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:04,939 How much of that is required and how much of that was him being 431 00:26:04,939 --> 00:26:06,530 very sensitive to his reputation? 432 00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:08,060 Rick Atkinson: I think it's both, actually. 433 00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:12,360 He is sensitive to it after Brandywine, where he gets out-generaled. 434 00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:16,400 And the guy who should have a surveyor's eye, since he was a surveyor, 435 00:26:16,460 --> 00:26:20,600 misreads the ground as he had in New York, the Battle of Long Island. 436 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,110 He just doesn't understand, uh, the danger of being outflanked. 437 00:26:24,170 --> 00:26:28,850 He should have ridden out and seen the ground for himself in a way that he 438 00:26:28,850 --> 00:26:30,980 did not in either of the instances. 439 00:26:31,010 --> 00:26:34,820 So there's a bit of CYA- "cover your ass," going on there. 440 00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:37,100 I think it's pardonable in retrospect. 441 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:41,210 I don't think he's beyond the pale in fabricating what happened when 442 00:26:41,210 --> 00:26:45,660 the, uh catastrophe occurs at Fort Washington, it's really the end of 443 00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:51,660 the campaign for Manhattan and Fort Washington falls November of 1776. 444 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,690 He hedges his responsibility for it. 445 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,280 It's shared responsibility. 446 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,965 General Greene is certainly partly responsible, but Washington has been 447 00:27:00,965 --> 00:27:04,415 out and he's looked at that ground and he has basically approved the 448 00:27:04,475 --> 00:27:06,185 deployments of the forces there. 449 00:27:06,185 --> 00:27:09,635 And he's agreed that those troops are largely invulnerable. 450 00:27:09,635 --> 00:27:10,415 Well, they're not. 451 00:27:10,415 --> 00:27:14,435 And you know, in one day, 3000 men are, are captured or killed. 452 00:27:14,465 --> 00:27:16,145 He never really fesses up. 453 00:27:16,205 --> 00:27:20,225 He doesn't say to Congress, you know, "This is my fault. I take 454 00:27:20,225 --> 00:27:24,615 full responsibility for it." These are pardonable sins in my 455 00:27:24,675 --> 00:27:26,504 estimation, looking back on it. 456 00:27:26,535 --> 00:27:33,135 And uh, he tells Congress a lot and he's extremely diligent in reporting 457 00:27:33,135 --> 00:27:35,115 to them and telling them what he needs. 458 00:27:35,115 --> 00:27:39,105 So this is just part and parcel of this ongoing relationship that 459 00:27:39,105 --> 00:27:40,635 he's got with his political master. 460 00:27:40,844 --> 00:27:43,064 Lindsay Chervinsky: You mentioned that at the Battle of Brandywine, 461 00:27:43,064 --> 00:27:46,544 he is out-generaled, and you also mentioned that some of the British 462 00:27:46,544 --> 00:27:49,965 leadership sometimes make quite poor strategic choices as well, and so 463 00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:52,034 he benefits from those poor choices. 464 00:27:52,094 --> 00:27:55,395 You've kind of outlined for us what Washington's generalship looks like, 465 00:27:55,395 --> 00:27:58,844 where he had strengths, where he had weaknesses, where he learned. 466 00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:03,365 Can you contrast that for us with what did the British leadership look 467 00:28:03,365 --> 00:28:04,865 like in terms of their generals? 468 00:28:04,925 --> 00:28:06,875 What background experience did they have? 469 00:28:06,875 --> 00:28:09,095 What information were they bringing in? 470 00:28:09,095 --> 00:28:11,465 How was their approach to leadership similar or different? 471 00:28:11,735 --> 00:28:14,330 Rick Atkinson: Well, on paper they looked great, you know? 472 00:28:15,695 --> 00:28:20,165 And of course it's a substantial professional army. 473 00:28:20,195 --> 00:28:25,475 The officers tended to have combat experience from the Seven Years' War. 474 00:28:25,505 --> 00:28:28,385 The rank and file tend not to have much experience. 475 00:28:28,385 --> 00:28:33,635 And that army, for example, led by Burgoyne down Lake Champlain in the spring 476 00:28:33,635 --> 00:28:39,155 of 1777, which is the army that's gonna be destroyed at Saratoga, is pretty green. 477 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:42,500 Not a lot of the rank and file have experience. 478 00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:47,870 So the generals are, starting with Gage, who's the commander in Boston 479 00:28:47,870 --> 00:28:52,550 when the war begins, look like they're gonna have the right stuff because 480 00:28:52,550 --> 00:28:55,340 they look the part, they talk the part. 481 00:28:55,370 --> 00:28:59,419 And none of them prove to be particularly capable, and some of 482 00:28:59,419 --> 00:29:01,550 them are catastrophically incapable. 483 00:29:01,610 --> 00:29:06,409 Part of the issue is the difficulty of a waging war across 3000 miles 484 00:29:06,409 --> 00:29:08,540 of open ocean in the age of sail. 485 00:29:08,689 --> 00:29:12,919 Part of it is that when you're fighting a counterinsurgency as an 486 00:29:12,919 --> 00:29:14,985 expeditionary force, you've got to win. 487 00:29:15,014 --> 00:29:16,544 You can't wait them out. 488 00:29:16,605 --> 00:29:18,284 You can't drag it out. 489 00:29:18,314 --> 00:29:19,274 You've got to win. 490 00:29:19,335 --> 00:29:24,385 And that is in part because you've got a restive populace at home in Britain, who 491 00:29:24,385 --> 00:29:26,605 the King wants, wants the war to end. 492 00:29:26,625 --> 00:29:29,475 It's very, very expensive in blood and treasure. 493 00:29:29,504 --> 00:29:34,365 So the sequence of commanding generals who come — William Howe following 494 00:29:34,365 --> 00:29:39,810 Gage, Clinton following Howe, Clinton is commanding general for four years. 495 00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:45,209 Clinton is a capable, very smart guy who ought not have been command 496 00:29:45,270 --> 00:29:48,120 because he avoids responsibility. 497 00:29:48,179 --> 00:29:51,090 He's constantly bickering with his subordinates. 498 00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:54,959 He's constantly bickering with a Lord George Germain who is the American 499 00:29:54,959 --> 00:29:59,220 Secretary back in London, he's the Robert McNamara of this war for the British. 500 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,840 And he has got character flaws that are disqualifying as it turns 501 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,870 out, um, even though he has got his moments on the battlefield. 502 00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:08,879 Lindsay Chervinsky: What were his character flaws? 503 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,250 Rick Atkinson: Well, for one thing, he's very reluctant to accept responsibility. 504 00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:15,810 He doesn't really want the job. 505 00:30:15,810 --> 00:30:18,360 He asks to quit several times. 506 00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:21,360 He's incapable of getting along with the navy. 507 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,979 This is pretty important if you're fighting across 3000 miles of open ocean. 508 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:28,169 His father had been an admiral and so he has been around the navy all his life. 509 00:30:28,169 --> 00:30:30,959 His father had been the governor of New York. 510 00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:32,820 Lindsay Chervinsky: And the British were kind of known for 511 00:30:32,820 --> 00:30:33,929 the navy, so it's a little bit... 512 00:30:33,929 --> 00:30:35,219 Rick Atkinson: Yeah, they were known for the navy. 513 00:30:35,219 --> 00:30:39,069 It's only the greatest navy the world has ever seen, and it's absolutely vital 514 00:30:39,069 --> 00:30:41,575 that the navy support the army and so on. 515 00:30:41,575 --> 00:30:46,044 Now, there's a series of duds who are admirals with the notable 516 00:30:46,044 --> 00:30:48,564 exception of Richard Howe, who's one of the great fighting 517 00:30:48,564 --> 00:30:50,965 admirals in British naval history. 518 00:30:51,024 --> 00:30:54,054 But Clinton seems able to get along with almost none of them. 519 00:30:54,085 --> 00:30:56,784 And this hampers operations. 520 00:30:56,814 --> 00:31:00,385 Clinton is the commanding general at Sullivan's Island when there's 521 00:31:00,385 --> 00:31:05,635 an expedition in 1776, it goes down to attack Charleston, essentially. 522 00:31:05,695 --> 00:31:10,185 And he's bickering constantly with everybody, including the 523 00:31:10,185 --> 00:31:12,525 commanding admiral on the scene. 524 00:31:12,525 --> 00:31:14,805 It's a major loss for the Brits. 525 00:31:14,805 --> 00:31:17,295 It keeps them out of the South for several years. 526 00:31:17,355 --> 00:31:20,625 So he's a figure I find very interesting because he is very 527 00:31:20,625 --> 00:31:22,485 smart and he writes things down. 528 00:31:22,485 --> 00:31:26,335 We have a, a good record of his account of things 529 00:31:26,665 --> 00:31:27,250 — Lindsay Chervinsky: Always helpful. 530 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,330 Historians are always appreciative of that. 531 00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:29,735 Rick Atkinson: Always helpful. 532 00:31:29,735 --> 00:31:32,705 It's very self-serving, but nevertheless, it's useful. 533 00:31:32,705 --> 00:31:37,625 But, he's insufficient, so this is damaging to the cause to say the 534 00:31:37,625 --> 00:31:43,175 least, that they don't have the capable leadership that they need for almost 535 00:31:43,175 --> 00:31:44,524 the entire eight years of the war. 536 00:31:44,584 --> 00:31:47,344 Lindsay Chervinsky: There's always a question with humans of how much 537 00:31:47,344 --> 00:31:49,415 of it is nature versus nurture. 538 00:31:49,450 --> 00:31:52,930 And I think with war, there's a question of how much of it is leadership 539 00:31:52,930 --> 00:31:56,290 and how much of it is circumstance, because both of those play a pretty 540 00:31:56,290 --> 00:31:58,360 big role in determining the outcome. 541 00:31:58,390 --> 00:32:02,440 You've mentioned counterinsurgency multiple times, but you also mentioned 542 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,770 that the British were lacking in really sufficient leadership at various points. 543 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,020 How much of it was the counterinsurgency, the lack of understanding about the really 544 00:32:12,020 --> 00:32:16,640 difficult circumstances that were going to make victory much harder, and how much 545 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,220 of it was the humans doing a bad job? 546 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,980 Rick Atkinson: You know, my friend Dave Petraeus says, you 547 00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:23,600 gotta get the big ideas right. 548 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,260 If you don't get the big ideas right, you're doomed in warfare. 549 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,645 And the big ideas in this war, the Brits don't get right. 550 00:32:31,675 --> 00:32:35,575 So for example, they believe that there — and this starts with the 551 00:32:35,575 --> 00:32:39,145 King and it goes down through his government, and Parliament, and 552 00:32:39,205 --> 00:32:41,185 the British population as a whole. 553 00:32:41,215 --> 00:32:45,475 They believe that a majority of the 2 million white Americans 554 00:32:45,625 --> 00:32:47,335 fundamentally are loyal to the crown. 555 00:32:47,335 --> 00:32:50,995 They believe that there is a large residual Loyalist population 556 00:32:50,995 --> 00:32:54,665 here that doesn't want to be part of this insurrection. 557 00:32:54,695 --> 00:32:55,625 That's wrong. 558 00:32:55,625 --> 00:32:59,915 Modern scholarship shows pretty conclusively that about 20% of 559 00:32:59,915 --> 00:33:03,485 those 2 million Americans are really dyed in the wool Loyalists 560 00:33:03,485 --> 00:33:05,105 who are gonna support the crown. 561 00:33:05,135 --> 00:33:09,095 That's never enough to control the levers of government here. 562 00:33:09,125 --> 00:33:15,315 So the British never, after 1775, control any of the 13 states. 563 00:33:15,425 --> 00:33:18,625 They control pockets and there are pockets of loyalism along the 564 00:33:18,625 --> 00:33:23,485 western frontier, and along maritime areas in the central middle Atlantic 565 00:33:23,485 --> 00:33:25,105 states, New York City, and so on. 566 00:33:25,165 --> 00:33:28,465 But it's just a wrong reading of the population. 567 00:33:28,465 --> 00:33:29,905 Now that's pretty fundamentally wrong. 568 00:33:30,225 --> 00:33:34,455 Another big idea that they have wrong, maybe the biggest of the ideas that 569 00:33:34,455 --> 00:33:38,415 they have wrong, is the conviction, again, starting with the King and shared 570 00:33:38,415 --> 00:33:43,215 by virtually all of the ruling class in Britain, is that if the American 571 00:33:43,215 --> 00:33:46,815 states, if the American colonists, if the American rebels are permitted 572 00:33:46,815 --> 00:33:51,435 to secede from the empire, that it's gonna encourage insurrections in 573 00:33:51,435 --> 00:33:57,435 Canada, in the Sugar Islands, where the real money is, in Ireland, in India. 574 00:33:57,705 --> 00:34:00,705 And that it'll be the beginning of the end of the first British 575 00:34:00,705 --> 00:34:02,385 Empire, which is a new thing. 576 00:34:02,385 --> 00:34:06,794 It had been created at the end of the Seven Years' War in 1763. 577 00:34:06,855 --> 00:34:10,215 And the King is absolutely determined that it's not gonna happen on his 578 00:34:10,215 --> 00:34:14,355 watch, to the point where he threatens to abdicate if a hard line is not 579 00:34:14,355 --> 00:34:16,455 maintained against the Americans. 580 00:34:16,514 --> 00:34:17,534 This is wrong. 581 00:34:17,534 --> 00:34:22,705 This is a wrong reading of the dynamic of the relationship between 582 00:34:22,765 --> 00:34:25,015 colonies and the mother country. 583 00:34:25,045 --> 00:34:28,795 He's told that it's wrong by the likes of Edmund Burke, and particularly by 584 00:34:28,795 --> 00:34:33,385 Adam Smith, who's brilliant treatise, the Wealth of Nations is published in 1776. 585 00:34:33,385 --> 00:34:35,515 Smith says that this is just not how it works. 586 00:34:35,575 --> 00:34:40,605 You can have a better relationship at a much smaller cost in blood and 587 00:34:40,605 --> 00:34:42,945 treasure through international trade. 588 00:34:42,975 --> 00:34:44,895 Well, King just doesn't believe that. 589 00:34:44,895 --> 00:34:48,825 So when you start with these wrong, big ideas, and there are other things that 590 00:34:48,825 --> 00:34:54,495 they get wrong too, it's hard to execute a successful war winning strategy. 591 00:34:54,525 --> 00:34:59,165 And it's even harder when you don't have capable war-winning 592 00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:00,795 generals that you need to do it. 593 00:35:00,795 --> 00:35:04,665 So I think it's a sequence of issues that kind of fit hand 594 00:35:04,665 --> 00:35:08,355 in glove and lead ultimately to failure on the part of the British. 595 00:35:08,665 --> 00:35:11,845 Lindsay Chervinsky: I know most historians hate counterfactuals, but if you'll bear 596 00:35:11,845 --> 00:35:15,235 with me — do you think it's possible, given all those wrong ideas, that 597 00:35:15,235 --> 00:35:18,475 there were circumstances under which the British could have won the war? 598 00:35:18,535 --> 00:35:21,025 Rick Atkinson: I love counterfactuals 'cause you can never be wrong. 599 00:35:23,785 --> 00:35:25,825 You know, I think it's possible they could have won. 600 00:35:25,825 --> 00:35:29,485 There were moments when they could have destroyed the Continental Army. 601 00:35:29,515 --> 00:35:34,015 Washington gets away by a whisker in the fog after the Battle of Long Island. 602 00:35:34,075 --> 00:35:38,305 The army is less than 3000 men retreating across New Jersey and across the 603 00:35:38,305 --> 00:35:42,265 Delaware River in the late fall of 1776. 604 00:35:42,265 --> 00:35:45,805 There are other occasions when if you kill or capture Washington and 605 00:35:45,805 --> 00:35:49,015 destroy the army, well, you think the insurrection is probably over. 606 00:35:49,015 --> 00:35:53,310 I think the problem is that by this point, there are issues that the 607 00:35:53,339 --> 00:35:55,080 British have not really considered. 608 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,700 One is that the American population is doubling every 25 years. 609 00:35:59,730 --> 00:36:03,509 It's a rate of growth unseen in the history of Europe, far outstrips 610 00:36:03,569 --> 00:36:04,710 the British rate of growth. 611 00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:08,040 So you know that two and a half million people here, including 612 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,330 500,000 enslaved Blacks, is going to get bigger, and bigger, and bigger. 613 00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:13,830 And it's soon gonna be bigger than Britain. 614 00:36:13,830 --> 00:36:15,375 It's soon gonna be way bigger than Britain. 615 00:36:15,405 --> 00:36:19,545 How they're gonna keep that under their thumb is impossible, really. 616 00:36:19,545 --> 00:36:23,805 And there are some in Britain who recognize that this is unlikely. 617 00:36:23,835 --> 00:36:30,045 So I think that ultimately, even if they win tactically and operationally in the 618 00:36:30,045 --> 00:36:35,625 period we're talking about, 1775 - 1783, they're not going to win in the long run. 619 00:36:35,625 --> 00:36:40,915 Now no one has the wit to recognize early on that there's potentially a political 620 00:36:40,915 --> 00:36:44,875 solution to this and it, and we recognize it in retrospect as the Commonwealth. 621 00:36:44,935 --> 00:36:49,495 You know, nobody's actually, Burke has some ideas about a Commonwealth, but he 622 00:36:49,495 --> 00:36:54,925 doesn't have the King's ear, and it's hard to articulate and it's hard to envision 623 00:36:54,925 --> 00:36:59,700 at this time that there is a relationship between these, what will be independent 624 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:05,190 countries, that are still fundamentally loyal in some way to the mother country. 625 00:37:05,220 --> 00:37:06,330 Well, that's not gonna happen. 626 00:37:06,330 --> 00:37:08,460 And when the killing starts, it's never gonna happen. 627 00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:11,790 Uh, so even if the British, and the British are gonna have to have a huge 628 00:37:11,790 --> 00:37:16,140 occupation army here, if they win, that's gonna cost them a lot of money. 629 00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,900 They're already deeply in debt from the Seven Years' War. 630 00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:20,250 So the cards are against them. 631 00:37:20,250 --> 00:37:22,140 They've not got good cards to play here. 632 00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:26,860 Lindsay Chervinsky: April 19th, 2025 marked the 250th anniversary of the 633 00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:28,480 start of the American Revolution. 634 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,080 As we here at Mount Vernon are keenly aware, that means that the 635 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,680 next eight years will be full of crucial anniversaries, including the 636 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,550 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence next summer. 637 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,280 I wanted to hear Atkinson's take on how, and if, the events of the war are still 638 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,740 relevant for modern, everyday Americans. 639 00:37:49,470 --> 00:37:51,120 We're now in a season of anniversaries. 640 00:37:51,150 --> 00:37:54,840 A couple weeks ago was the 250th anniversary of Lexington and Concord, 641 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,070 and we are going to be experiencing anniversaries for the next several years. 642 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:02,310 And I'm hoping that the American people will pay attention, and will care, 643 00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:03,780 and will feel like it's relevant. 644 00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:07,975 But there are probably a lot of Americans who do feel like it is very distant 645 00:38:08,125 --> 00:38:10,915 and inaccessible or irrelevant to them. 646 00:38:10,975 --> 00:38:15,444 I would love to know your thoughts on what you think we should be thinking 647 00:38:15,444 --> 00:38:19,225 about with these anniversaries, why it matters, what, maybe what the legacy is, 648 00:38:19,225 --> 00:38:21,415 or, or how we should be observing them. 649 00:38:21,475 --> 00:38:22,884 Rick Atkinson: Yeah, I've thought about this. 650 00:38:22,944 --> 00:38:27,415 Well, first of all, I think looking back allows us to see 651 00:38:27,444 --> 00:38:32,095 what our forebearers believed, what they were willing to die for. 652 00:38:32,095 --> 00:38:35,065 It's the most profound question any people can ask themselves. 653 00:38:35,095 --> 00:38:40,585 It tells us something about who we are, where we came from, and that's 654 00:38:40,675 --> 00:38:44,875 regardless of whether your family arrived in the 17th century or three years 655 00:38:44,875 --> 00:38:47,245 ago as new citizens in this country. 656 00:38:47,335 --> 00:38:51,655 We are the beneficiary of an enlightened political heritage handed down to 657 00:38:51,655 --> 00:38:54,595 us by that revolutionary generation. 658 00:38:54,595 --> 00:39:01,690 And it includes a tradition of personal liberties and strictures on how to divide 659 00:39:01,690 --> 00:39:05,230 power and keep it from concentrating in the hands of authoritarians 660 00:39:05,230 --> 00:39:06,940 who think primarily of themselves. 661 00:39:06,970 --> 00:39:08,410 This is priceless. 662 00:39:08,410 --> 00:39:12,250 This is a priceless political legacy that we've got, and we 663 00:39:12,250 --> 00:39:14,170 can't permit it to be taken away. 664 00:39:14,170 --> 00:39:18,160 We can't permit it to slip away, and we can't be oblivious to 665 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,375 this priceless political gift or the hundreds of thousands who've 666 00:39:22,375 --> 00:39:27,175 given their lives to affirm and sustain it over the past 250 years. 667 00:39:27,235 --> 00:39:31,255 So this is an opportunity with the semiquincentennial, the 250th, 668 00:39:31,255 --> 00:39:36,735 to affirm that and to see that we've got this in our hands. 669 00:39:36,735 --> 00:39:39,885 It's something to pass along to our children and our grandchildren, and it 670 00:39:39,885 --> 00:39:44,295 should act as a polestar for becoming the people that that revolutionary 671 00:39:44,295 --> 00:39:45,825 generation thought we could become. 672 00:39:45,885 --> 00:39:46,425 Lindsay Chervinsky: I love that. 673 00:39:46,515 --> 00:39:50,490 One final question, which is if someone wants to, other than your book of course, 674 00:39:50,490 --> 00:39:52,020 or we should say all of your books. 675 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,500 If they want to read more about leadership, what is a book 676 00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,260 that you read that taught you something about leadership? 677 00:39:58,290 --> 00:40:02,190 Rick Atkinson: There are a number of them, including War and Peace by Tolstoy. 678 00:40:02,190 --> 00:40:06,420 But I, you know, I think I would recommend Grant's memoirs. 679 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,115 There's no better set of memoirs by an American general. 680 00:40:11,145 --> 00:40:12,255 He writes really well. 681 00:40:12,255 --> 00:40:16,515 It's a very poignant accomplishment because he is dying as he is writing 682 00:40:16,515 --> 00:40:20,085 his memoirs — this is after the Civil War, obviously, after the presidency. 683 00:40:20,115 --> 00:40:27,055 It shows, I think, a man who's been a failure in a lot of ways — as soldier, as 684 00:40:27,055 --> 00:40:33,535 a fellow, a failure as a citizen almost, who nevertheless, through persistence and 685 00:40:33,535 --> 00:40:36,795 capability and — rises to the occasion. 686 00:40:37,035 --> 00:40:40,815 And he writes about his leadership and learning how to lead through 687 00:40:40,815 --> 00:40:43,815 the most arduous circumstances. 688 00:40:43,815 --> 00:40:48,075 You know, he presides over the deaths of hundreds of thousands, 689 00:40:48,105 --> 00:40:53,295 which is the the most difficult thing to imagine for any leader. 690 00:40:53,355 --> 00:40:56,984 And yet he does it with a certain grace, and he does it without ever losing 691 00:40:56,984 --> 00:41:02,595 fact that those men, each of those men died, their individual deaths were as 692 00:41:02,595 --> 00:41:05,360 unique as a fingerprint or a snowflake. 693 00:41:05,390 --> 00:41:10,070 So he writes with great humanity about the most inhumane thing, and that is war. 694 00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:12,650 So I recommend Grant's memoirs. 695 00:41:12,650 --> 00:41:14,780 Lindsay Chervinsky: Well, that is a, a great suggestion. 696 00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:17,930 Well, no one has ever said that before, so I, I love that it is unique. 697 00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:20,360 Thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom with us. 698 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:21,230 Rick Atkinson: Yeah, thanks, Lindsay. 699 00:41:21,230 --> 00:41:22,760 It's great talking to you, as always. 700 00:41:24,925 --> 00:41:26,990 Lindsay Chervinsky: Thank you for joining us this week on Leadership 701 00:41:26,990 --> 00:41:30,590 and Legacy, and thank you so much again to our guest, Rick Atkinson. 702 00:41:31,425 --> 00:41:34,785 You can find his new book, the Fate of the Day, wherever you buy books. 703 00:41:35,445 --> 00:41:38,985 You can also check out more content from him on the Mount Vernon YouTube page, 704 00:41:39,225 --> 00:41:43,125 including a recording of his book talk and some shorter videos he was kind enough 705 00:41:43,125 --> 00:41:44,865 to record with us while he was visiting. 706 00:41:45,645 --> 00:41:47,385 I'm your host, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky. 707 00:41:49,185 --> 00:41:52,365 Leadership and Legacy: Conversations at the George Washington Presidential 708 00:41:52,365 --> 00:41:55,455 Library is the production of the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association 709 00:41:55,485 --> 00:41:56,745 and Primary Source Media. 710 00:41:57,645 --> 00:42:01,004 In the spirit of George Washington's leadership, we feature the perspectives of 711 00:42:01,004 --> 00:42:03,404 leaders from across industries and fields. 712 00:42:04,335 --> 00:42:07,575 As such, the thoughts expressed in this podcast are solely the views of our 713 00:42:07,575 --> 00:42:11,384 guests and do not reflect the opinions of the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association. 714 00:42:12,254 --> 00:42:15,524 To learn more about Washington's leadership example, or to find out 715 00:42:15,524 --> 00:42:18,884 how you can bring your team to the George Washington Presidential Library, 716 00:42:19,245 --> 00:42:21,845 visit GWleadershipinstitute.org. 717 00:42:22,860 --> 00:42:27,790 Or, to find more great podcasts from Mount Vernon, visit georgewashingtonpodcast.com. 718 00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:33,130 You can also explore the work of Primary Source Media at primarysourcemedia.com. 719 00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:36,360 Join us in two weeks for our next great conversation.