What makes a killer LinkedIn profile?

I'm joined by Maya Kovacic kra, a former architect turned marketing

coach to teach you how to.

Optimize your LinkedIn profile so that you can attract more of the clients you

deserve and land the projects you love.

In this episode of Architecture Business Club, the weekly podcast for

small firm founders who want to build their dream business in architecture

and enjoy more freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment in what they do.

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Having spent over 20 years working in architecture, I know how hard it can

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Many firms struggle with this, but by sharing your stories on podcasts,

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We can help you with everything from podcast strategy and launch

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link in the show notes to book a no obligation chat about working with me.

If you're interested in being a guest on this show, emo John, that's

JO n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

Now let's learn more about LinkedIn profile optimization.

Maya Kovacic-Kalra is a former architect turned marketing coach

who spent over a decade in practice.

Maya knows the pain of doing great work and still feeling invisible,

relying on word of mouth taking on.

Underpaid uninspiring projects working with difficult clients, but she's

also seen the difference when you're working on projects, you actually

enjoy getting paid properly and not burning yourself out in the process.

Her mission is to help you get more of the right work with clients who

respect and value you so you can work on projects you love and earn the money

you deserve without working crazy hours.

To grab Maya's free PDF guide, your next step to a stronger LinkedIn profile,

just click the link in the show notes.

Maya, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Thank you very much.

Pleasure to be here.

Oh, it is great to have you here.

It's great to have you here.

Before we get stuck into our topic, Maya, I was wondering about what do

you, what do you enjoy doing in your free time when you're not at work?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: So, um, my free time now goes.

Mainly to our puppy who we got seven months ago.

She's now nine months, and since we got her as with a new puppy, you

need to go to lots of walks and what I discovered is like new spaces in

London, which I have never been before.

I walk around like parks in London, which I enjoy, and

trying to get to know new parts.

That's what I do most in my free time.

The other parties, I'm a taxi driver for my kids because, you know, they, they

have to go everywhere and I drive them.

Mostly me, sometimes my husband.

And of course, socializing, meeting my friends.

And I love reading books.

Yeah, it sounds like you're quite busy for, for a second there.

When you mentioned about taxing, I thought you were actually gonna say

that you're moonlighting as a taxi

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: I, I don,

thinking this, this is a whole other side to

Maya that I don't know about.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: I work for free.

I'm a free taxi driver.

Yeah, me too.

Me too.

And yeah, the, the whole thing about, um.

Having a dog.

Uh, we have a dog too.

We have a rescue dog.

And, uh, yeah, such a fantastic way to get out and to discover some new places that

you perhaps didn't know existed before.

So yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Yeah.

So, my, it, we are going to talk about.

LinkedIn, specifically LinkedIn profile optimization so that and other

professionals that might be listening to the show today can get more clients

and opportunities from LinkedIn.

So to begin, could you please give us a quick rundown of what

makes up a LinkedIn profile?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yes.

So before I say that, I would just say that LinkedIn profile is one of the

parts that you should have done well.

Plus other parts, just like posting and commenting.

It's not just LinkedIn profile, it's gonna get you new clients.

Um, it's like LinkedIn works like an ecosystem and you have to, you know,

do all the parts to get good results.

But LinkedIn profile, I would call it, it's like a foundation where

pe, which works for you 24 7.

And if it's a strong one, it's there.

You know, it's there.

And then you can do the posting, you can do commenting and you

can do DMing, but you know your profile's gonna work for your heart.

The main part that you should really look at, uh, your headline.

Your banner, which is the biggest image, um, on de linking profile.

Your profile picture.

Then under your name and headline is your blue link.

Then if you move down about section.

Featured section, which many people probably don't use or don't know about it.

Experience section, services section, and recommendations.

So these are the main parts I would say you need to really focus on when you are

looking through your LinkedIn profile.

Okay, so the LinkedIn profile is very important.

It's something that can work 24 hours a day for us.

But there are other things that we, we need to consider as well.

You said that LinkedIn's like a whole ecosystem there of different

elements that we should be using.

Um, the interest of respecting our listeners time though, we, we decided

today that we would focus on the profile

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

if you wanted to do a deep dive in everything,

LinkedIn, like we, we could do a whole series on that, couldn't we?

Mya all about LinkedIn.

So, um, maybe that's an opportunity for, um, a follow up episode in the future.

But today we're gonna be focusing on that profile and those, those

elements that you've, you've given us a run through about.

Um, we get stuck into those different parts of the LinkedIn profile,

common mistakes have you seen architects and other professionals

make on their own LinkedIn profiles?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Okay, so if I, let's say I'm a client

that's looking for an architect.

I go on LinkedIn, I put, um, the word architect in, in the search bar.

Then LinkedIn's gonna give, give me lots of different profile.

I'm a homeowner.

I need an architect to, let's say, make me a new extension or redo my house.

What I see when I see all these profiles, it's in the headlines.

Most of architects or other professions just give their

positions, so it's architect or internal architect, or sustainability

architect, or maybe architect at this company, but none of those.

Tell me more about it.

Is it for me?

Who is it?

Who are you helping?

How are you gonna help me achieve what I'm looking for?

And you know, how are you gonna make my life better?

So that's the first part.

It's the headline that architects use.

The second one, if I go to their profiles, lots of they don't have a banner, which

might be a reason they have a switched off visibility in their settings,

or they just didn't put it there.

Or they have a nice picture of a project or a detail, and that's about it.

Lots of that don't use, uh, blue Link, which is a clickable link.

About session is usually all about them.

It treats like a cv then featured session, the section, they

either don't have it or because.

They don't know about it mostly, or they use it in a way that,

um, it's not very optimized or they could use it much better.

And also experience section, it treats also like a CV where it

should tell a bit of a story.

So these are the main parts, um, that I can see with architects and what that.

Means is if you go through different profiles, loads of them

are very similar, so they don't distinguish among each other.

They don't tell me, you are the right architect for me.

I want to work with you.

They just tell me you are an architect.

Okay, but nothing more.

And I know that you did this in these projects, but I want to know more.

You know, I want to.

Build that trust with the person.

And hopefully that, you know, it's gonna make them do, uh, something

more and make them want to do, to work with me or work with an architect.

So these are the main mistakes I can see on their profiles.

Okay.

So it sounds like from what you've seen, that a lot of those profiles

sounds similar actually, in terms of the content that they have on there.

It's very much about the projects and the individual, less about the clients,

and, probably making it quite hard for them to stand out on LinkedIn,

maybe to the point where they might be questioning, it really worth it?

You know, this LinkedIn thing, just, it's not working for me.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yep.

is that the case?

You know?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah,

but the good news is that there's lots that they can do

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: they can.

to improve the presence on LinkedIn,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yes.

we are gonna dig into a little bit more now.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Perfect.

So let's start with the, the headline.

Could you explain.

Why the headline is so critical and, and how we can make it stand out.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Okay, so headline is.

A little bit more important outside your profile than on your profile.

It's also important your profile, but if you go on LinkedIn and if you go through

LinkedIn feed and look through the comments or through posts or LinkedIn,

you know, recommends a profile or you get a connection request, what you're gonna

see there is of course a small profile.

Picture a name, and then below there's gonna be a preview of the headline.

The preview means if you are looking on your mobile phones, about 45

characters on desktops, a little bit more about 60 characters, and

in those 45 characters, you should tell people you are the architect.

For example, if you are an architect or a person that they need to

check out, you need to tell them more than just your job position.

So.

That's gonna make them then say, okay, I'm interested in this person.

I'm gonna click on their profile, and then I'm gonna come to their profile.

So that's how you should use your headline.

Focus on those four first characters, and then when they come to your

profile, your headline, you can add to your headline more keywords.

So let's say your headline starts with a. First strong 45 characters, which

can, where you can use the simplest template, which is like, for example,

I help or I design who, where you put your target audience, do what and how.

For example, I help home owners add space to their homes

with well design extensions.

So you tell them who you're for, what you do, and what.

What their benefit's gonna be.

That's one version or a second.

One you start with your role because lots of architects

want to start with their roles.

So you can say you are an architect, so architect for home, owner owners

specializing in residential architecture.

We designed the cuts.

If you want to put figures, 40% of your energy bills.

So you tell people more.

That's why headlines are really important.

Don't make them vague.

Don't make them clever, make them simple and make them really understandable.

And then if you want to add more key words, you can add those after

your main part of your headline.

Headline.

If you want to say you are a founder, add founder.

If you want to say, you know, you are Reba Chartered, add that all important bits

that you want to add come after that, but.

And make your four first 45 character characters really strong.

That's, that's great.

that's.

You've made that really clear for us, Maya.

So thank you for

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Okay.

Oops.

So

uh, examples that we can use.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: yeah.

the wording there to suit.

And something you mentioned there is about the importance of, uh, the

headline outside of your profile.

That's one of the things, isn't it, that when you are.

Commenting on like other people's posts

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

that headline, the first few characters of it

that's going to appear, isn't it?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

that if you've got a really rubbish headline, um, that's

not gonna capture people's attention,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah,

a real missed opportunity, isn't it?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: it is, it is a missed opportunity.

And also, for example, when I see like, connection requests, you know, I want to.

If I, if I see a person who doesn't have a head, some people don't even have

headlines, but if a person just tells me one word, most likely, unless it's an

architect, which is smart target audience I probably wouldn't really click on it.

And yeah, it's a, it is a missed opportunity, especially when you

have like so many, same ones.

Um, architect, architect, interior architect.

There's no distinguish.

Tell people who you are for and what you can do for them.

Yeah, interesting that.

That point you make there that if that headline isn't compelling enough, then

people are not gonna click through to your profile if if it doesn't

entice them, that you're not gonna get as many people that are gonna go

through to check out your profile.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

the headline doesn't pique their interest.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: True.

I mean, you might have a really good comment and that's why people would

like to check you out, but you can lose lots of people if you don't have

a clear headline that it's strong and you know, tells people more.

Okay.

Okay.

So the headline's definitely important, but that's not everything

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: It's not everything.

Let's talk about banner.

So what are the key elements of an effective LinkedIn banner on our profiles?

I.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: So, as I said before, banner is the biggest image

that preview previous on LinkedIn.

And I was listening to this, um, LinkedIn coach and he told me that out of like.

Average of 15 seconds that people spent on some that this profile,

they spent about seven seconds on the banner, which is almost half of it.

So it's really important to make your banner work hard.

Um, there are three things, um, banner should have, so a value proposition

statement social proof and call to action.

So a value proposition statement should be a statement where you.

Again, tell people who you are, what you can do for them, how you can serve them.

But doesn't copy paste your headline.

It needs to add to your headline so you're not, again, just copy pasting, but you add

to what you already said in the headline.

Then the second part I said is social proof.

Social proof builds trust as a social proof.

You can use either logos of the companies you work with, you

can use like short testimonials.

You can use awards if you want any, anything that builds trust.

And the third part is call to action.

So many people don't use that.

Now, call to action in banner is not clickable, but is the first

part when you can tell people.

What you want them to do next?

Where do you want to take them?

So use that in a banner, for example.

If you want to tell them, I want you to book a consultation, tell them

that, say, book a consultation, click link in a blue link, for example.

Tell them also with all these three parts, bear in mind that lots of LinkedIn

users, they browse on their mobile phones.

So you have to make your banner readable.

Don't use really small phones that people can't see, and also make

colors that, you know, go with each other that people can read.

So if you use like white on yellow.

That's not gonna be very good.

Make it readable.

The other thing I would say on a banner, when you design it, like when you

preview it on a desktop, your profile photo, it's gonna be more on the left.

But when you preview it on the mobile phone, it's gonna take more

of the banner space on the right.

So if you're not careful, it can cut off your text.

And I've seen that many times.

So just.

You can Google this to see how you should design it, but be careful with that.

Um, but yeah, three things.

Value proposition statement, call to action, and social proof.

These are the most three important things you should have on a banner.

I, I'm, I'm just.

Chuckling to myself here.

Um, thinking of the times that I've tried to update my LinkedIn

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Mm-hmm.

and then put it on LinkedIn and then seen it on my mobile phone, and

it's like, oh, the text is covered up.

It

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

is, it is a little bit, can be a little bit tricky.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

without help to get that right, you do have something that can help

with that, but we'll mention that later.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yes.

So.

What about the photo you mentioned there?

The, the photo can appear different sizes over the

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Mm-hmm.

what, depending on how it's viewed on what device, but, but what

makes a great LinkedIn profile photo?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: So your profile photo should have a good

resolution, so you know it's clear.

Uh, LinkedIn recommends 400 by 400 pixels.

Of course it needs to have your face in it, and your face should cover

about 60% of the profile picture.

So don't be too zoomed out so people can't see who you are.

It, you should look professional, but approachable.

And also with the background, you can have a background, but if

it's busy background, it's gonna take away from your profile photo.

So make it either blurry or make it one color.

For example, I have my face and my background color is

orange, which is my brand color.

So yes.

Good resolution, 60% of the um, circle should be covered by your

face and make it good, make it approachable and make it professional.

That's what I would say.

Yeah.

Okay.

That, that's great.

Also, you also mentioned, um, when we were talking about the banner, about

mentioning that call to action, uh, and one of the things that, that could

be was clicking the blue link or like booking a call or whatever that action is.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

we talk a little bit about blue link?

So kind of what is the blue link?

Where, where can we find it, and how should we be using that link?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Mm-hmm.

So Blue Link, I call it Blue Link because it's, it's a blue link.

It's the link which comes, you have the name that you have

headline and it comes below.

And Blue Link is a clickable link, which.

Can be really important if you want people to take action.

So Blueing should repeat the call to action that you

already set in your banner.

This is the second time you should mention the same offer, not with copy paste words,

but it needs to tell the same offer.

Don't put one offer in the banner and then another offer in the blue link

because you're just gonna confuse people what you want them to do.

So this should be.

Your main offer.

Where do you want people?

Where do you want to take people from your LinkedIn profile, and

what do you want them to do next?

If you want them to book a consultation with you, tell them that, and then

when they click on that link, take them to a landing page where they

can book, book a consultation.

Don't take them, for example, to your portfolio or to your website where.

Suddenly they're gonna see your about section.

They're gonna see your, you know, projects.

They're gonna see so many different things and you're gonna lose them.

Make it very simple.

Make it at as least steps as they can take to take an action

you are telling them to do.

So add that blue link.

So it's there.

And people, if they decide to take your, you know, you offer what you want them

to do, it's there and they can do it.

Again, take them exactly to where you tell them you want to take them.

Don't confuse them in the middle.

Okay, so.

Make sure it's the same as the call to action that's on the banner,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah,

confusing people and send them somewhere where

there's not too many distractions.

They're not gonna go off and start browsing the portfolio

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: yeah.

want them to, for example, book a call, just send them to a landing

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

Yeah, I know lots of people have like Calendly where people can book a call, so

you know, they take them straight there.

You can write a copy there, which explains a bit more if you want to,

and I would recommend you do that.

But take them there where they can actually do what you ask them to do.

Okay.

Yeah,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah,

it.

Confuse people don't click.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: exactly.

we don't want to confuse them,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: No, no.

could we talk, uh, about the, about section?

How do you recommend we approach writing our about section on our LinkedIn profile?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah, that's an, that's a, I love the about section.

It's, um, because like almost a hundred percent of people use about section.

To write about themselves and about section doesn't say about you, it

just says about and about Section should be not UCV should be a breach

from where your potential clients are right now and where you want to

take them and how to take them there.

So it should tell a story.

It, um, it should tell them, you know, how you can help.

So.

One of the really good ways to approach this is you start with a problem or a

pain, po pain point or struggles that your, you know, target audience have.

Because remember in about section, it's first few lines that are previewed

and then people can click more.

It doesn't show the whole about section if you don't click on more.

So make sure that first few lines are really, really strong and start with.

Target audience.

Start with your readers.

Talk about their problems, and then you can agitate that problem and also

talk about where they could be and show them how their life could look like.

And then you offer, then you put yourself in, you offer a solution.

So your, for example, your services are.

Solution to that problem.

And with your services, with your help, you can take them

there where they want to be.

And then after all that, again, add your call to action.

Add your, it's not clickable, but add the same call to action.

You already mentioned in the banner you already mentioned in Blue Link.

Add it at the end.

That's how you can approach the about section.

It's not just about you, about your achievement achievements about your

life story, it's about people who land on your profile and people who you

want to work with, and you tell them, you know, you are the solution for

them, but you need to start talking about them first, not about you.

I love that.

So yeah, the about section, it, it's not all about you, it's it's about

your customers and how, how you can help them get from where they are

now to where they want to get to that

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a, yeah, you show, show them.

You tell them about transformation.

You can help them achieve if they want to, you know, and then tell them, book

a consultation so we can talk further.

And there's a, a fairly generous character limit.

But there is a character limit.

I have done that before where I've, I've tried to, to write something

and it's, it's got quite long,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah,

come to copy and paste it into LinkedIn, I'm like, oh,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: it's too long.

Yeah.

to cut it down again.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

I can't remember exact, uh, character's number, but yeah.

If you don't add fluff that people, you know, get bored in middle,

middle, you can have a lengthy post.

Just keep it engaging, keep it, you know, what you want to say.

If it doesn't fit, take it out.

But just tell people the story of how, where they are now.

And where they could get with your help.

I love that

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah,

If you do need some help with the writing or, or with the editing.

I mean, chat, GPT.

It's not a great writer, but it's a pretty good editor I've found.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: yeah,

write a piece, then you can, you could always get a little bit of help

from an AI tool to help edit it down, which I, I think that's quite a useful

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: yeah.

Yeah.

too much for your about section.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Exactly, and always check after using chat.

GPT.

Always check because sometimes yeah, things don't come out

very well if you don't check.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

You have to proofread absolutely everything.

Maya, we've, we've covered a lot of ground

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Mm-hmm.

what would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to

take away from our conversation today?

I.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: The main thing it would be.

So if you are using LinkedIn to help you to grow your business, to help

you, you know, attract clients, to help you get leads, focus on your

LinkedIn profile and make it strong.

Make it, strong.

So it tells a story when a person who you want to attract lands on it

knows exactly who you are, what you can do for them, how you can help

them, and take them through that, through every section of the profile.

Don't just say few words or leave the banner empty.

Take it seriously.

And when you have it optimized and when you have it strong, you know it's there.

You can always change it if you, you know, if you change your offers, but

make it work for you and tell people what is the next step they need to do.

So your call to action.

I love that.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

Maya.

Was there anything else about the topic?

That you, you wanted to add that we, we haven't covered already?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: There's, uh, one more really important part,

which is a featured section.

Featured section is where you can also add clickable links with a little like images.

Um, what I would quickly say with the featured section, the first

link in your featured section, should again, be your main offer.

That you already mentioned in the banner, in the blue link.

So that's your first one, and then you can add more.

I wouldn't add more than four because it get, can get too much for people.

Maybe you can have only 1, 2, 3.

I have two.

And the others, you, if you have a lead, uh, lead magnet, you can add that.

If you have, maybe if you want to take people to your portfolio, you

can add that, but always the first one should be your main offer.

And yeah, add it.

If you don't have it, you can just, um, search on Google, see

how you add the feature section.

But it, it's important one, because again, it comes further down when

people already read things about you and they learn more about you.

And when you say you know what you want 'em to do again, it's more likely

they're gonna click on that link.

That is a timely reminder for me to add.

A featured section because I've been meaning to do that for a

while and I still haven't done it.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

I'm going to, uh, bump that up my to-do list

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

sure that gets done.

Maya, I wanted to ask another question.

It's not about LinkedIn,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Okay.

but I, I love to travel and to discover new places,

and I wondered if you could tell me about one of your favorite

places and what you love about it.

It could be anywhere near or far.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: I think now, especially when I live in London, my

favorite place always to go back to my hometown, which is in Slovenia.

I, when I was living there, of course, you know, you take everything for

granted, but when you move away and you live somewhere else, my home

country is always the best place to go.

I mean, I like, I like traveling, but I need to go back.

It's because it's, it's.

It's very green, it's very, you know, calm in comparison to London.

It's very clean.

You can get everywhere very quickly with a car.

And that's the place.

Yeah, I, I always love going back and I need to, especially during

the summer, the summer in Slovenia, that's is where I always want to be.

Oh, if, if you haven't had the chance to visit Slovenia,

you, you're missing out on a treat.

I have been fortunate to visit there maybe two or three times over the years.

Not for a little while, but, um, I've visited a few different places in Slovenia

and it is just such a beautiful country.

It's, it's a really lovely place.

Um, yeah, especially if you, if you're into.

kind of outdoor stuff,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Oh yeah.

outdoor activities like hiking, swimming in lakes,

and you know, climbing mountains and kayaking, all of those things.

There's, there's so much to do, um, in Slovenia.

So yeah, definitely go and check it out for

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yes

my thank you again for being a guest on the show

and sharing your expertise.

It's much appreciated.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: my pleasure.

the, yeah, where's the best place for people

to connect with you online?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn, so just search me up and you

can DM me and just connect with me.

If, if you connect with me because you watched um, John's show, just let me know.

That would be great.

It would be great to hear the feedback as well.

But yeah, LinkedIn, this is my main platform.

Fantastic.

And Mike, could you remind everyone about the, um, the three PDF guides

that I mentioned in the introduction?

Could you

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

bit more about that?

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: So all the things that we talked about today, they're

covered in my my free guide more in details and also with examples which I

think, you know, it's, it's quite useful.

There's a little bit more, uh, things in there, um, that we talked about today.

But yeah, if you want to, make your profile.

Optimize and stronger that it is now, please go and download my free PDF.

It has every section explained there and if you have any questions you can

always, send me a D DM on on my LinkedIn.

That's brilliant.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

and I'll make sure there's a link to that in the show notes.

And Maya, I think you're, you're underselling it, it's

a bit more than quite useful.

I've got a copy of this document and, uh, it is really detailed, so this is not just

some that you're gonna be downloading.

It's not like a one two page thing.

It's, it is a really useful, detailed document that if you are

interested in putting into practice.

Any of what May has talked about in the episode today, you need to hit that

link and go and download that guide.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Thank you, John.

You're welcome.

Thanks again.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah, I, I wanted to make it, like if I. I wanted to

make it that if I would read through that document, I would know what

to do and how to make it stronger.

So that, that was my focus.

I want people, when they read through it, they can actually do it.

So yeah.

Yeah.

I hope it helps.

Thanks again, Maya.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: My pleasure.

Thank you very much for having me and my, I must say this is my first

podcast, so I'll al always remember it.

Oh,

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Yeah.

Well, I'm, I'm so glad to have, um, been able to, to help

you do that, and hopefully it was gonna be the, the first of many.

Maja Kovacic-Kalra: Thank you and I, I, I enjoyed it.

It was a really, really nice experience.

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