This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

I've gone from control now to completely giving over control in some ways, I'm helpless in relation to what happens next.

It's always difficult when kids grow up, isn't it. And sometimes it can be easy to like behind that change in tastes as explore new forms of self expression. Adam had always had a brilliant relationship with his daughter, Olivia. And back in the summer of 2022, he was driving to Oxford to say goodbye for what felt like an eternity,

there's a big difference between what the external is saying and what the internal is saying, because I'm nervous, I'm anxious, there's a great degree of trepidation in me. But also, as I'm looking at delivery, I'm thinking to myself, I'm your dad. So there's an element of me of trying to be strong, an element of me trying in some ways to give off all of the body language that is positive, and also driving at the same time. So we're just in some ways, knowingly looking at each other as we go. And to get to Oxford is going to take about 50 minutes to 60 minutes, as I say, and it's a pretty easy journey, the traffic is light. I've got the radio on, she's got the earbuds in and we're driving and then we actually start to come in to Oxford, we're going to location I've never been to before. So I've got the sat nav on as well, just to make sure that I'm not making any mistakes in relation to our destination. And as we come through Oxford, we actually come into quite a leafy part of the suburb, which is beautiful. And as we drive into the location, there's, there's quite a long driveway in order to get to quite a large building in itself. And I think myself this is this is fairly pretty, this is nice, and we drive along the gravel drive me. I remember glancing at her and and with that she just took the left earbud out, which I seem deactivates the music, she turned turn to me. And she said is this it, because we're doing this for the first time. And as we drive down the you know, the gravel path, and I can hear the crunching under the wheels. And I just kind of reverse up to the building itself, we stop. And at that point, we'd look at each other because we're not actually sure what to do next. So I've parked and I've got out of the car, because in some ways, there's a little bit of nervous energy in me. And as I get out, someone comes out of the building as a it's a youngest guy also with tattoos. So I'm thinking to myself, kindred spirits, certainly for her. And when he comes out, he says, Is this Olivia? And I say, Yes, it is. And at this point, he says great at any he kind of runs back in and he collects a little piece of paper and a pen. You know, we're looking across the grass. And I can see a group of people sitting in another outbuilding all having a conversation almost sat in a circle. And then some other people come out as well. And they say, Hey, can we help Olivia with her luggage? And I say, Yeah, sure. I've got it. I'll bring it in. I say no, you can't come in. I was like, Oh, all right. Okay. So what I start to do is take everything out of the boot. And I know that this is actually going to be quite abrupt, having just arrived at the building, I'm thinking to myself, actually, well, I have no part to play. I'm going from control now to completely giving over control in some ways. I'm helpless in relation to what happens next. And so with that, I look at Olivia, she looks at me, and she just says that it's fine. So in many ways, I know that she's got this. And I also have to realise that I've got no choice. I just had to go at that point, you know, there's no hesitating or loitering around. I give her a hug and a kiss. There was nothing, no words at this point, just just an embrace, and, and a look. And so after that, you know, they disappear into the building, and they're gone. And that's it. There's nothing more for me to do other than get in the car and use the journey home with my own thoughts done driving off, and I remember looking in the rearview mirror, and I can just see the door of the building shutting behind me. And then I'm embarking on the journey home. And I'm thinking to myself, How did I get here to the point that I dropped off my beautiful daughter on a beautiful summer's day in July to a rehab centre for 28 days in order to be treated for addiction.

You touched on control right at the beginning, Adam well throughout the story really about and it doesn't just go into your role as a father, but all the other professions that you've done, you said you've you've been in the police, you're in the legal field. It's always more difficult when there's a family involved and you've got this, you've got your beautiful daughter who you've looked after for 18 years. Now you've given her over to other people to look after who you've never met before. It must have been quite quite a difficult scenario for you to be in.

It is when you have to abdicate control, but there's also a power and strength in knowing that you can't deal with something yourself and I think sometimes we will get to a point in life where it just becomes too difficult or It's beyond our sphere of control or our sphere of expertise. And you need other people to help you. And I think with Olivia, one of the things that we always did was we were very, very open about some of the struggles that we had, because this whole thing was predicated on undiagnosed ADHD and BPD. And then what that does is it just manifests itself in a number of consequences, whether it's addiction could be self harm, could be eating disorders, and there are so many teenagers struggling with this. And the reality is, you know, I speak to so many parents, and so many dads who are at their wit's end, these are people with considerable intellect, considerable resources. But the reality is, sometimes you have to deal with something in life, where you can't do it, you can't do it alone, you've got to reach out, you've got to, in some ways, find the right people trust the process, and just believe and, as you say, put your most cherished thing in life over to sometimes a complete stranger.

How do you release controller because I speak to a lot of men who just can't do it. And I'm almost imagining them that scenario, for all the experiences they've had before. And everything that they've done in the life, they just can't imagine releasing control of that of one of their children to people, they don't know, what what's what's, what's that within you, in your background, or who you are,

that's immensely difficult. If you think about it, you know, all the roles that I've had, you know, I was a cop for six years, I've been embarrassed at all my professional life. In many ways, it's always been about being in control yourself, and in some ways, trying to control a very difficult situation. Well, this was a very difficult situation, but also a situation get to a point, Alex, when you simply are not the right person to deal with it, or you'll just do not have the skills and attributes to deal with it. And there can be in some way, some comfort in a sudden realisation that you are not in a position to deal with something, but you've got to reach out, and you've actually got to seek help from somewhere else, or some other people. And when you find the right people, and that can be a challenge in itself. That can be a real godsend. Now, don't get me wrong, we worked tirelessly for years to try and find the right person or the right people that wouldn't be able to engage with her and really help her and it took us years. And in that time, you know, we had all kinds of challenges as to CHI. But when you find the right person, then you actually got to put your trust in that person. And sometimes you just get to a point, or you hit a level where you've got no option.

There's a massive vulnerability there on your part.

Without a shadow of a doubt, that's a huge focus. For me, a lot of work that I do is now about human centred leadership. And one of the biggest areas and perhaps learnings out of this is vulnerability. And you know, I talked to people who, as I say, come from, you know, have resources, have intellect have the capability to deal with most things in life. But sometimes, when it comes to your kids or mental health challenges, and our family unit, you've got to go outside. And vulnerability was explained to me actually, by an amazing lady. And she said this, that vulnerability is the ability of an individual to really work out what he or she needs at a deeply personal level. But also it requires the confidence of that person to then seek help from other people in relation to meeting those needs. And so many people and so many men, and so many men, sometimes in powerful positions are not good at vulnerability, they're very good at making sure that everybody else has got what they need. They're very good at seeking sometimes validation from external sources. But the reality is to really look internally and ask yourself the question, what do I need, at a deeply personal level at this time? And how do I go out and ask other people to help me with those needs, is deeply challenging, and that's real vulnerability. But actually, and this is a, you know, a lesson that Olivia knows very well as well. That that is an incredible strength, and not a weakness. And I think we are seeing more and more of that.

And I think about myself when you're saying that. I've had a lot of masks on throughout my life. And what sort of masks did you have to take off? When you're handing Olivia over to other people to look after?

Oh, you are stripped but naked, when something like that is happening. And you are unable really to offer anything other than your presence, your love. You've got to rely on the professionals who are better placed in you to help and you know, this is a story of help because that event, that period of time was a catalyst for change. But you don't know that. You have no idea how this is going to work out but all you can do is actually trust the process. and hope that things will return to normal. It's not the right phrase, but things will get better.

How was the first time seeing or after those 28 days for you?

little trepidation? Because you all look at each other? And you think, right, what's going on for 28 days? And there's a overwhelming desire to say, right? Tell me what happened. But the reality is, that's her space. And I just think you just have to pick up and and say, how do we help? How do we support? What is it you need? So in some ways, you're just trying to be a supporter, but slightly in the dark. But you can do some research and reading around the things in yourself. And I think it was incumbent on all of us just to increase our knowledge and awareness of certain conditions just to understand or come from a place of understanding. And then you really got to take your lead from somebody else in relation to right, what do you need?

Did you expect that she'd have this kind of breakthrough, or what what sort of,

I think it's down to two things. One is we found a team, we found some people who could really connect with her and understand her and call her out and support her, which is important, and that's very hard. I think, for people who are dealing with neurodiversity issues, or, or with loved ones who have finding the right connection point is hard. The other one is entirely down to her, it's down to her bravery, her courage and her desire to want to be better to live her best life. And to put the work in, in herself. As I say, we're all working in progress, but some of us aren't as good as others, in relation to that constant development or that constant, you know, kind of repetitive process in relation to trying to change how you behave, or how you react certain things,

to actually go through that, that process as as a father, and it makes me think about how we don't have any choice on who our parents are. And the fact that she had parents who were supportive of her the whole way through, wanted her to, to overcome her issues. But at the same time, she needed to do that herself as well. And it was like the marrying of the two. But sometimes people might be in the same position as Olivia, who don't have that, well, then

you can be in a set of circumstances which are, you know, detrimental to, you actually getting better. But you've got to start to find some people, whoever you are, wherever you are, that are going to have a positive impact on you. And let's be honest, that can be incredibly difficult. So yes, she was lucky in relation to the support network that she had. But the flip side of the coin, which you've already mentioned, is, you've got to want it and you've got to do it yourself. You've got to take your own, you know, got to take responsibility and ownership of it.

I'm curious if you've had this kind of experience in the past, because I've tried to help people. And like you say, Olivia had that I want to, I want to change, I want to get better. Some of these people, you have so much sort of passion or so much desire to help them to, to want to change, but they they just don't. And they go back into old patterns. And it can be quite frustrating. Have you ever had that experience previously in different fields you've been in, whether it's the in the legal field that you're in now or are in when you're in the police, where you're trying to help people, and they don't want to be helped.

I think that's incredibly difficult when you are trying to help someone and they don't want any help. And sometimes, there's just nothing you can do about it. I think one of the major lessons, probably for Olivia, when she was in rehab was she met people there who were far older than her who had been to rehab time and time and time again. And I think that was a powerful lesson for her as well to actually say that is not the life I want to lead. Now that's within the DNA of her. So in some ways, that's lucky. But I think that goes to show that if you you aren't super keen on helping yourself very, very difficult for anyone to force the help on you. Very difficult. And we see that, don't we? Because we've got, you know, we can walk around any city in the world. You come across homelessness, which I think is which is such a travesty in the modern era. But the reality there, there are certain people who choose to be homeless. And whoever might help, you know, a person gets sometimes they can just choose a certain way of life, which seems at odds to most people, but the reality is, are there we go. We sometimes make weight choices, which others can't fathom. But with her, I think she was able to compare and contrast and thought, you know, there are people in their 30s 40s 50s, who are still coming back to rehab. And in some ways it was a bit of a mirror for her.

Yeah, I think that was really valuable for her to see that to see people who've been repeatedly going back and saying I don't want to be there because she maybe she saw the live view of 1020 30 is on so I don't want that to be me.

And I think there's a really powerful message for men as well, that sometimes when you're going through a challenge you've already mentioned this that you're not alone. can be sometimes it's very powerful if you've got a male group of friends, who there's no judgement there, but they are, in some ways able just to share the space. And listen, and you get power from realising that you're not alone. And I had one of those experiences. And it was deeply powerful the ability just to share the story with other men who also had certain challenges, but there was no judgement there. There's just holding the space. And being curious, and also being empathetic and supportive. That can actually be incredibly powerful. But if you think about it, how many men have a safe male space? I'm not sure that's very common.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you speak to I mean, I'm very fortunate, I've got that. Men, you know, friends of mine who can be very non judgmental, and and can can hand it, you know, can give an ear really to what you're going through. But you speak to some men who say, my mates just take the piss out of me. I just think, maybe look for some other friends because you, it there's, there's a place for that I think in especially in, in British male culture, you know, to

pull yourself through, pull your bootstraps up, it'll be fine. Exactly. Get on with it. And I get I get all of that. And if you come from a certain era, or even a demographic, who knows, maybe that's the approach. But there's also something very powerful sometimes just about being in a space where people are just present. They don't have to have an answer for you. But they are deeply present. They are curious, they are empathetic. And that can be very powerful.

Your Podcast, leadership Enigma, have you had Have you had a situation like that? This kind of topic, we've spoken to men about their friendship, base in middle in relation to leadership, I'm just curious about any sort of experiences,

I think the podcast is, is always been focused on human centred leadership. So I've always been very curious about the human being over the human doing, I don't, you know, I always recognise the human being people have achieved amazing things. But I'm always interested in unpeeling the onion a little bit Alex and, and getting involved into the human doing. And as I said to you, I think one of the things that's coming up more and more now is vulnerability, and how that is being looked at and evidenced in the years post the pandemic. So I just think that's the direction of travel for us, you know, we're looking more and more now an empathy, vulnerability, curiosity inclusivity. I just think some of those, some of those are the hardest things to do hardest things to evidence and hardest things to achieve. And who knows, I've heard people call them soft skills. I think they're some of the hardest skills. So I just think from a direction of travel, we're really focusing on the human being over over and above the human doing.

Who is Adam? Now the man compared to pre? June July 2022?

Yeah, well, I think this has been a bit of a journey. And I think now I'm in a position where asking for help. Being vulnerable, is something that I look at as a strength. So really starting to understand what my needs are now, and my wife has the same. What are our needs on a deeply personal level, and having the confidence to ask other people to help with those needs, is something that I probably wasn't 12 months ago. And I think I was always curious, but now when perhaps insatiably curious because, as I say to you, that was, in many ways, a mitigation strategy to try and get out of that, that feeling of deep shame, or loneliness, or frustration, whatever it might be that you can't actually control something or protect something that you you love very dearly. So I probably say those two things.

It was really interesting to hear how Adam spoke about his daughter's illness with such clarity, composure, and even level headedness. To be honest, I really would have expected someone in his position to have been a lot more emotional about the situation. But he was just so rational, it was so clear that he didn't allow his emotions to override his logic. I think all of us would be forgiven for doing that in the scenario that Adam was presented with, you wouldn't really blame him for acting irrationally around this scenario. But what does that say about our approach to addiction within society? Put yourself in Adam shoes, how do you go through your days and focus on your daily tasks, everything in your personal and professional life? With that thought, in your mind of your daughter's well being? It got me thinking, would your inner voice start to persuade you that you'd been at fault for people out there who are fathers is an incredibly challenging role to play, and thinking of all the scenarios in the past of different choices that you could have made replaying certain events in your head again, and again and again, but in reality, as Adam explained, it is a disease and it's something that needs to be treated as such. How would you have handled this situation as a parent, as a friend, as a loved one? How would you as a man have acted knowing that your daughter needed this kind of treatment? clearly demonstrates his protected traits as a man in this episode, but how about you? What type of man do you think you are? Take our man test to find out by clicking the link in the description, or by going to stories of men podcast.com. It takes less than three minutes to complete. And you never know. You might just learn something completely new about yourself that you didn't know before.