This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding you that your self worth

is made up of more than your job title.

Each week, I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go...

Hi there everyone.

Welcome back this week.

I skipped a week last week and didn't say anything.

I just kind of needed a break and so I took it.

I think, in the spirit of More Than Work, that's perfectly.

Okay.

I have heard from a lot of people that not just me, but others are really

kind of overwhelmed lately and busy.

And I think a lot of kids are out of school now so parents

are doing other things.

And for me, it's just kind of comedy's busier and works busier

and personal life's busier.

And all good things, but you know, sometimes you don't have time to do

those those things like edit a podcast.

For example, I am glad I, I did this week though, because my guest

Joey Held he's a fellow SquadCaster.

That's where I record my podcast.

I've said that before.

And I you're gonna like it because the guy is just so chill and so

positive, but also realistic.

And those are kind of qualities that I really like and aspire to as well.

So he does marketing, he's written a book and we're just gonna get into all that.

And I'm gonna leave it short because I just think at this point, I'd rather,

you hear the interview than hear me, uh, prattle on about how busy I am, which

isn't that fun to listen to I'm sure.

So, um, I look forward to the next few interviews.

I'm gonna be sharing with you as well.

I've gotten a few more in the can, so to speak, and a lot of editing to do,

and I'm excited to share with you.

Also, if you are in London, I am doing my fringe cam Camden fringe show from, um,

on the seventh, ninth and 17th of August.

And I'll be up in Edinburgh for Fringe doing some open spots and seeing friends

from the 11th through 16th of August.

So if you happen to be in London and listening to this or up

in Edinburgh, I don't know how many listeners I have there.

It'd be great to see you.

Enjoy the show.

Hey everyone.

The guest today is Joey Held.

He is a writer and podcaster and actually a SquadCaster.

That's how I met him is via SquadCast.

So thanks for being on Joey.

Absolutely Rabiah.

Thanks for having me.

And yes.

Shout out to SquadCast.

Yeah, exactly.

That's how we, that's how we met and got introduced to each

other's shows and each other.

So, where am I talking to you from today?

I am in Austin, Texas.

Very exciting.

It was, pouring rain earlier in the week to the point of many

flights were getting delayed and now it's nice and sunny outside.

Austin tends to have very interesting weather.

I lived in Dallas for a couple years and I got to Austin kind of frequently cause

I think the place that was most closely aligned with me in Texas was Austin.

So I kind of got out of Dallas whenever I could,

probably a good move.

Yeah, but the weather is something.

I was there in November last year and it was still warm.

I mean, it was kind of unbearable in a way, cause I was coming from London where

it never got that warm for two years.

It's pretty, it's pretty wild.

I always like the, the people who come I actually just saw an,

a Instagram real about this, of the people who come to Austin and

decide to move here for the vibes.

And then they haven't experienced a summer yet.

Cuz in Austin summer is just, uh, you know, I've lived in some,

some places with hot weather.

I went to school at Miami, so, uh, I'm used to some, you know,

hot and humid weather, but it's, it's something else here.

It's a very

dry just in your face heat.

yeah.

I don't think vibes even know what to do in that heat, right?

They just melt.

smelled

Yeah.

They're like, Nope.

Our vibe is puddle.

Um, yeah, so first of all, you're a writer and I'll just jump into

talking about your book, cuz you said before we were chatting

that you were just at the LA.

Times Book Festival, right?

So

yes.

Can you talk a little bit about that experience

and then also your book?

Yeah, the LA times Festival of Books.

First time they had it, uh, in three years since, you know, little,

little COVID, uh, came through and ruined lots of in-person events.

Um, and it was, I was honestly surprised at how packed it was.

It was, I think they had estimated, uh, in 2019 that they had about 150,000 people.

And I would guess it was probably around the same over the weekends.

It was a Saturday and Sunday event.

And, uh, I was there with a couple other fellow writers who were pedaling our wears

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

Short Stories on Life's Relationships.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

I like to equate it to, um, and I've, I've had a couple people tell me this,

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

so I guess I could say people say, even though it's probably like two to

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

three people, um, that it's as if the characters of the show, New Girl wrote a

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

collection of short stories and wouldn't, you know it, at the LA Festival of

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

Books, right on the main stage, which was with within eye shot of our booth,

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

Max Greenfield, who played Schmidt on New Girl was giving a presentation.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

So I was like, okay, I probably should go say hello.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

And I had a copy of my book with me and I.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

Bought a copy of his book, which was a, it's a kid's book that's called

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

"I Don't Wanna Read This Book".

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

He did the whole reading of it.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

Presentation was very entertaining.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

And then I, you know, I was in the, the signing line and just kind

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

of said like, Hey, this book, uh, people have told me, its like if

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

New Girl characters wrote a book.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

He, you know, he congratulated me.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

He was very nice.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

And then I was just like, do you want a copy?

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

And he was like, sure, I'll take one.

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

So, uh, it could have ended up in a trash can immediately afterwards,

my book is called Kind, But Kind of Weird:

but I, at least while I was there, he, he was very nice about it.

Yeah.

He took the book.

I had never really been at like an exhibit sort of booth like that.

Like I did, I did a launch event for my book, but that was like,

people were there to support me.

Like it wasn't, you know, I, I don't know what the total amount

was, but our booth number was 9 64.

So.

And, you know, math logic that makes it seem like there's at least 965

booths, cuz our neighbor was 9 65.

So I just to see like, you know, people are walking by and some

people will walk up, but sometimes you gotta kind of like yell at them.

And I felt sort of, uh, car sales mini sometimes.

But I found an effective tactic just yelling out what's on people's shirts

or if they're carrying a bag or hat or something, just like commenting on that.

And then they'd at least kind of come over and, you know, didn't always

result in, in a sale or them even like picking up a book, but you'd

have a fun little conversation for a couple minutes and in eight hour

days, it's very nice to have that to, uh, break up some of the, the chaos.

Yeah, just have some micro interactions that can

kind of yeah add up to a full day.

Um, so with your book, it it's a collection of short stories, correct?

Are they all fiction?

All non-fiction and mix

It's a mix.

They are largely fiction, but with elements of non-fiction in them.

So a lot of times people will ask, you know, what are people I know I

should say are as like, oh, are any of the characters based off of me?

And I like to tell them whoever your least favorite character is.

I had you in mind for that just to, to keep their ego in check a little bit.

But, uh, they, I would say for the most part, they're like, none of the

characters are a hundred percent based off someone I know, like it's, it's

taking bits and pieces of either people I've come across or people that I like

have, you know, created in my head.

There's one story in there in particular where a character

gets a detention for, asking for a pizza party in his Spanish class.

And that really happened to me.

Uh, it's the only detention I ever got in high school was

for asking for a pizza party.

And the teacher I guess, had had enough, although she did promise one.

I'm not bitter it's, you know, it's more than a decade later.

It was two decades later.

Goodness.

did you ask in Spanish or did you?

Yes.

So the, this will be the, the, you know, too long didn't read version.

Basically she promised us a pizza party if the class collectively got a 90 on

a test and we got a 91, so all of us were, were like, let's get a pizza party.

But apparently myself and two other people were like the ringleaders.

So we got detentions.

Everyone else got off scot free.

And I swear, she said, and again, this is in Spanish, so I maybe misunderstood

something, but I am like 99% sure.

And she said, if you, if you ask again, I will give you an attention.

So I just didn't talk the rest of the class because I didn't

want it to be misconstrued.

Uh, and then she just still came up and was like detencióne.

I was great.

that's that's funny.

I actually, Spanish class is the class I got in trouble too.

what did you do?

Um, well, I'll tell you, I mean, it's, I got in trouble for talking

during one of them, but I wasn't the one talking that was the weird thing.

It was the person in front of me and she kept mocking everybody.

during their dialogue.

Like, we don't have to do the dialogue.

So you have to do that where you had to have a script, but say it in Spanish

and conjugate a verb or something.

That's what, yeah.

So they made us do that, right.

And so she kept mocking everyone and he kept thinking it was me, which even

at that age, my voice was deeper than the other girl's voices, for sure.

And it was not me.

And she ended up being drunk basically.

And so, but he kicked me out cause he called me a revolutionary leader.

And he kicked me out.

And then the, the people in the office thought it was so funny

that they did make me do detention.

And I was like, I didn't do anything and they didn't care.

And so, yeah, it was, I mean, I was a smart ass for sure, a hundred percent,

um, you know, like we would just use the same script in a different verb

until one day it didn't make sense.

And the teacher caught us like after four weeks, but , you know, so yeah.

So Spanish class is a tough one.

I mean, you can get really get in trouble in that one, I guess if

you're otherwise a good kid, right?

Yeah, it's wild.

It's wild.

What , what you can't get away with in Spanish.

Exactly.

So with your book, how did you decide that you were gonna take it and just put

a collection together versus have your individual story stand to their own or

even write like a longer form novel?

What was the idea that, or what gave you the idea to

write the book the way you did?

Well, I've always enjoyed writing and had just kind of had a

collection of short stories and I actually released a few of them, uh, pre giving

it the final edit that they got on, uh, Wattpad, which is, I haven't haven't

poked around too much lately, but it was a really, a really fun little, uh,

platform where you could share stories.

And a lot of people do kind of like serial serialized test runs on there

of, of stories they maybe thinking about doing, or they're just like,

Hey, I have like a, a three-part you know, 10 page, each story, and you can

release them in chapters like that.

So that was a, a nice way to just kind of get some initial

feedback on things like that.

And I just, there's probably about four or five of those stories that

the core of those stories ended up in this collection as well.

Um, just based off of like, Hey, people seem to enjoy reading them.

I, and, and they still kind of fit the overall theme of relationships,

which does not mean romantic.

It can be, you know, a father and son or a or like within, you know, a class of

high school students or things like that.

I think it just got to a point where I had enough of them where I was like,

I should do something with these.

Like I had, I had only released maybe like four or five of them, but I had

written, I think it was, I think it was 42 was the final number I had.

And I parsed that down a little bit because a few, I was like, ah,

this is either, you know, too, too dark for the, the rest of the book.

And there's like a couple stories that people have been like, oh,

that was like a little creepy.

I, but I, I think they still fit the overall sort of like quirkiness,

uh, element that I'm going for.

And.

It, it kind of was just at a point where it was like, Hey, I

should do something with these because I've written a lot of them.

And I think people might enjoy reading them.

And so I reached out to some agents and publishers, but if, if you know

anyone listening out there has ever done that with a collection of short

stories, you're, you're basically told like, no, these don't sell.

I don't want this.

If you have another novel that you can attach it onto.

And I was like, well, writing this one was, was time consuming enough.

So let's, let's focus on that one first.

And then we'll, we'll come back with a, a longer form novel.

Um, and then, so just went into the process of getting it out into the

world myself and I there's a lot that goes into putting a book together.

So I, I am glad I had some helpful people along the way.

Yeah.

So, yeah, so self-publishing.

I interviewed, there was a recent episode I had, um, with an Kevin G.

Chapman.

He's an author, he's a lawyer and he also writes, um, he writes crime fiction.

But he was saying that when he wrote his first book, it was probably 20 years ago.

I guess, if I am doing any kind of math right now, but there was no idea of

doing this kind of publishing, right?

And there was no Amazon, there was no Kindle.

There's nothing, none of that, certainly.

But then also the self-publishing kind of that we have now wasn't occurring

so he took a long time to this first one published, but then he mentioned a

similar thing about how like in his case.

He said, if there's a series, they don't want that.

They want something new.

And it sounds like for you too, it's like, okay, you have these short

stories, but we want something else.

And so just, did you have any doubt at any point, or did you just say, this is what

I want to do so I'm going to, I hear what you're saying, but I'm still gonna do it.

Like how did that work for you?

Cuz I think that has to be hard just to kind of hear rejection

a certain number of times.

Yeah, I think, um, well, in some cases you don't hear anything, so

it's just, you just submit it and you get nothing back, which might even be worse.

I think it was nicer to hear that it's like, oh, okay.

You actually took the time to read this.

Um, I mean, I think there's always doubt whenever you're releasing something into

the world or considering it, but I think.

You know, I had, I had shared with other people and, and in some cases

it, it wasn't like friends or family.

It was, you know, like strangers in a writing group or something.

And I think there was enough enjoyment on it, but also part of it was just

like, I would like to share these.

And I know, you know, there's nothing that a hundred percent of people like

maybe the show Derry Girls for everyone, like everyone I've mentioned to,

who's seen it since I love that show.

So maybe that's the one exception, but outside of that, like not, everyone's

gonna enjoy the, these books and even just finding people that like, would.

Even consider short story collections, I feel like was more of a, a

hunt than I think it had it been like a sci-fi or a mystery or

thriller or something like that.

And so I don't think there was any sort of, uh, hesitation or, or nerves, I

guess, but it was more just like, Okay, how can I pivot this to keep it going?

And I think, you know, self-publishing, I think has a, a bit of a bad rap

because of how many bad self-published books there are out there.

It's people who don't don't even proofread at a, at all.

Um, you know, I had multiple editors for this.

I had an actual design, uh, team that was helping with the, both the formatting

of the book and the cover and all kinds of like other, you know, sort of

creative and marketing elements for it.

And I think, I, I think more people are doing that now that it.

um, you know, getting rid of that stigma a little bit, but

there's definitely still books.

And, and I even saw at the LA festival or LA times festival of books, so

a, you know, a world renowned world, renowned country renowned at least

festival where it's a lot of people.

And there were definitely a few books that were clearly not very well edited.

I, that I, you know, I would just page through it at booth or something.

And I was just like, oh, this.

You know, an 800 page book about guitar strings, and that probably could

have been parsed down a little bit.

So it's, uh, just a, just a reminder in general to edit your work.

Yeah.

Well, it, I mean, yeah, I I'm one of those people who has been called various names

just regarding grammar or punctuation or.

Whatever.

And I don't really mind because it's like, well, so I care about the quality of

writing and you don't, that's what you're saying and you're criticizing me for it.

Right.

But it is important because someone's gonna be reading that.

And I feel like it's same with like podcasting.

And we'll talk about your podcast in a bit, but you know, it's our

responsibility to put something out that's pleasant to listen to rather than

say, oh, you know, I'm standing on the side of the road, creating a podcast.

Oh, my goodness.

So I, I don't wanna throw anyone under the bus, but I had a guest one time

who her wifi was spotty at her house.

So she's like, oh, I'm taking this call from a restaurant.

And there was like a server taking her order while we were recorded.

I was like, this, this doesn't work.

I'm like, I thought you had like a quiet room within the restaurant,

but you're literally out.

So then I, we got her to move to her car and it came out fine, but don't yes.

Don't.

If you're doing a recording, please, please try to avoid like subways

or restaurants or things like that.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's hard to, it's hard to, it seems fine to you.

It's very hard to listen to.

Uh, so as far as the writing too, you, do you have a newsletter as well called Crisp

Bounce Pass that you write and that's a different style of writing, I guess.

So, what brought about you creating a newsletter.

Well, I know a lot of people have pandemic hobbies that

they started, you know, bread making was a big one, right?

When we all, we all first started, I, my two hobbies were, I bought a putting

green and I started a newsletter.

When the pandemic started sports all disappeared.

So Crisp Bounce Pass is, I like to say it's a look at the lighter side of

basketball, uh, and pop culture and kind of the intersection between them,

because I think more than any other sport, basketball just has so many

different pop culture elements to it.

You know, players are wearing their fashion.

Um, there's so much hip hop and rap crossover.

A lot of players even are rappers and have their own albums, even

good ones, not just like Shaq's, rap rap album, which is it's fine.

It's fine.

Um, and there's just, I think there's just so many interesting elements to

it, but there's a lot, I mean, a lot of like sports talk shows, it's just

people like rattling off stats or, you know, like the NFL draft happened

last night as we're recording this.

And it's like, immediately players are being graded.

I'm like, these people are 21 years old and you're like,

Nope, that was a terrible pick.

He hasn't played a single down of football, but terrible pick.

And here's why, and it's just like, mm there's,

I think there's more fun.

Parts of sports to talk.

So it's a nice, I started it, I think just cuz I was kind of missing

sports, but I also just wanted another sort of creative outlet for writing.

And I mentioned the putting green that I don't know where that is.

That's somehow that's gotten lost somewhere in my house.

So I've not kept up with that as well.

But the newsletter is still going strong.

Had, uh, issue 1 78 go out today and I kind of was like, dang.

That's a lot.

That's a lot of writing and, and it's, uh, it's been a blast and I'll, I'll get

emails from people who, some of them, I know some of them are, are strangers

outside of the newsletter, but I'm just like, it's so cool to, to get that

feedback of like, people are reading this, sometimes they'll even add to the story.

They're like, oh, Hey, here's this other cool thing that I thought was, was fun.

And, and I have included one of those in a future issue.

One of, one of those, uh, extra stories and I gave the shout out and I was

like, thank you for making me do less work because you just read all of this.

yeah, that's great.

Yeah and I did see, I was scrolling through and checking out some old,

so just so people know they can find your, the archives there, anyone

who's into basketball, or even just wants to read something entertaining

and learn about basketball.

Um, but I was looking through some of your, the archive and I also saw how many

you had, and it was really impressive.

So as far as writing, did you major in that in school or how

did you get into being a writer?

I, well, I majored in broadcast journalism.

Um, so there's definitely writing elements to it.

I, you know, you're writing voiceover or just kind of the,

the basis for your stories.

And there's certainly, especially nowadays, there's like so much

crossover between you'll have a video and then you'll also have like,

The a, a written article that goes along with it.

Um, but writing has just been something I've always enjoyed.

I was just like a, you know, a fun hobby.

I picked up as a kid.

The first book I ever first book I ever wrote was a, uh, a

reading, writing assignment in F.

Second grade.

I wanna say this is, this is what I consider my first published work.

Um, it was basically the plot of space jam, but it was my, my childhood friends.

And I, I had to take on some, I think they were sewer monsters and we had

to beat them in a basketball game just to rescue the Chicago bulls.

It wasn't even like, I think at space jam, there's a little bit more.

At stake, like the enslavement of humankind or at least Michael Jordan.

Um, but for us, it was just the, the bulls were, you know, locked in a room somewhere

and then we beat them at basketball.

We were able to get them out.

Cause I grew up in Chicago.

So a big bulls fan, uh, so vital part of the plot there.

And it was a, you know, a picture book.

So my crew drawings go along with it, but we did the whole.

Kind of laminated and put it in that, you know, the little like binding

that you'd use to make any sort of presentation look way fancier than it was.

That was a, a key component to that.

And I got an a on it.

So I was like, Hey, maybe this, this writing thing could pay off

That's super, but now you're in marketing

also right as your career.

And so I, I just switched to marketing about six months ago, which has

been quite a learning experience.

I'll tell you coming from project management.

But part of the reason was because I.

Can write and they wanted that, but how does the writing play into your role

in marketing and, and then how does it contribute to what you're doing?

I mean, it sounds like even your knowledge of, in that space generally helped you put

out a better quality book than might have.

If you didn't have that knowledge.

Oh, absolutely.

And I think the, the company I'm at is a communications agency.

So it's a full, you know, a full scope type of thing.

It's not just PR.

It's not just digital or content.

Um, it's, it's the whole, whole shebang.

And I think for the book that definitely helped in that it was more of a holistic

process of like, Hey, I, I hate saying holistic, but that just came out.

Um, but it was a more like, you know, an overview.

It wasn't just like, Hey, I'm just gonna pitch my book to like three people.

And that's it.

It was, it was going on podcasts.

It was, uh, creating kind of articles and like, In the newsletter, there's throwing

in a story about, uh, basketball, which is in the book, uh, and, and having that sort

of like cross promotional side of things.

Um, so yes, it definitely helps, uh, having a background in marketing

and PR, but you also like with the book, it was also kind of a fun

little playground for things because.

As much as I'd like to think I'm an expert at stuff the way, especially

on social media, like the way these platforms just change so rapidly.

I, and will, you know, something that worked yesterday suddenly

doesn't work because it's trying to be more like TikTok or whatever,

you know, whatever the case is.

And you.

You just have to be able to adapt to it.

And I think a lot of it is kind of experimenting and being like,

Hey, I think this will work, but then keeping an eye on it.

And if it's not working then to change it to something that

hopefully is doing better.

Um, but I think writing in general is just so important for any profession, really.

Like to be able to write, even if you're just emailing between people,

like, even if it's never going outside of company walls, like to be able to

succinctly communicate what you need

Mm-hmm

and what, what needs to happen to get your job done,

I think is, is so important.

And not everyone has that skill.

So it's a, it's a good thing to practice.

Yeah, well, yeah, to that point, I think just there's

a couple things that I've noticed and that I've been better at one

thing is just paring things down to like, really, what do I need to say?

And also being direct, because I think what I see a lot of people

do is, and I, it's funny cause I'm working in England, so, and I work

with the people internationally, but they communicate very differently

here than they do in the States.

And they're much more passive.

Mm.

But to me, you're not, I'm not even ever clear on what

people are asking for sometimes.

I'm like, well, do you asking a question or are you just making a statement?

I'm not sure.

And I just find like knowing how to clearly communicate in a very succinct

way, not how I talk, but how I write, because I don't talk very succinctly,

um, is, is super important, you know, because you can save a lot of hassle.

You can save a lot of back and forth.

You can avoid arguments.

I think one thing that happens, especially in the corporate space

is people don't read things as they were intended to be consumed.

And so you have to be very careful to write things so that

they will be read that way.

And it's, it's tough.

I don't know.

I find it difficult.

Oh, absolutely.

And I always enjoy enjoys probably the wrong word, but I always find it

interesting when like I'll read something one way and then someone else will

read it a completely different way.

And they'll be like, are they mad at us?

And I was like, I don't get that.

But then I'm like, well, are they?,

And I'm like, then I, I have the, the whole revision, uh, in my head

where I was like, oh, maybe I just over overthought that whole thing.

But, do you have a, a favorite email ism that you like a, a term, like

you only really use in emails, but you, you use it pretty regularly.

Oh yeah.

And I it's when I'm trying to stop, because I don't wanna always do that.

I'll say "I am just writing to follow up on."

Oh,

Because I feel like I have to seat it some way, like, oh,

I'm just asking this and I'm trying to be very bashful about it rather than

just say, Hey, do you, do you have a response on this or something, you know?

And just like the, "I hope you're well" also at the start.

I don't, I don't, I mean, I hope they are, but it's also,

I'm not asking how they are.

I'm not gonna ever do that.

And they're not gonna ask me how I am.

And so, but those two are the ones where I.

I wanna fix them so I can just be more direct and then it seems less pass.

It sounds passive aggressive at some point, you

yeah.

What about you?

I think I'm, I'm along the same of like, oh,

just wanted to blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, no, I'm just asking this question.

I didn't wanna do this.

If I, you know, if you would answered that, I, I wouldn't have had to, to do

this, so I don't enjoy that I'm doing it, but I still write it like that.

Um, and I always, I always say I wanna sign off, uh, you know, people will do

like sincerely, best, cheers, whatever.

I always wanna sign off tepid regards if I'm like kind of irritated at

the person, but I've never, I've never pulled the trigger on that.

no, I mean, sometimes you just do like the dash in your name.

There's no,

that's when it's that's when you know, you're a little, little

Yeah.

irritated

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the use of an exclamation mark after hello kind of

starts it off, like, hello.

Like I'm not mad at you, but boom.

but I could be.

Yeah.

So I think thanks for the exclamation mark too.

I always read that as, Hmm, they're not happy, but they're trying to

make sure they end on a high note,

you know,

I like that.

I like that.

but you know, it is what it is just, it is tough.

Um, so you do enjoy your work though that you do

the marketing

I

do, yeah.

And how do you balance kind.

I guess, doing that job because I know, I mean, I don't, it depends on what

you're doing at the time, but it can be really busy when, especially when

you're working with clients, how do you balance that within kind of your own

writing and do you ever get fatigued at one and find one brings you energy?

Or do you guys just have to stop on both all sides?

Like your personal line, your, well, your professional's

hard to stop because you can't

get.

there are consequences

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you ever just stop doing your job?

No, I'm just kidding, but

just for, just for hours at

it

Yes.

Yes.

exactly.

How does it impact each other though?

Do you, do you find there's any relation between them?

Are you able to separate things?

I, I think there is relation sometimes.

And I've actually had a couple of occasions where someone that I have met

through my job ends up, you know, going to a different company and like a completely

different field and reaches out and is like, Hey, like I liked interacting with

you and I have some writing work, you know, would you wanna work together?

And I think that's always, again, just like speaks to the power of

really just being nice to people.

Like our, our company motto is "good work with good people makes for a good life".

And it's super simple, but it's so impactful.

Like if you're working with someone that you don't enjoy, or even, I would

say, just hanging out with someone that you don't like being around,

like, it does bring your whole, your whole energy and your whole vibe down.

And I think that is something that you never wanna have happen, but it probably

is going to happen at some point.

So, certainly in both cases, I would say I've gotten, you know, I've

hit, hit a wall or I'm like, I just don't know how to, like I've started

writing something and I just don't know how to, how to bring it home.

So usually I like to you know just get up and walk away and,

and just kind of go for a walk.

I've got two dogs, you know, just, just scratching a puppy's

belly for like five minutes makes all, all problems melts away.

And, uh, really, it really does kind of like re-energize me.

Um, and so sometimes I can go right back to whatever I was working on,

but sometimes it's just like, Hey, you know, Not feeling it right

now, but there's enough to work on.

And, and with my day job of, uh, working at an agency, there's enough clients

that I, you know, it's not just like, oh, this one client is, I mean, I

like all the clients I work with, but hypothetically like this client's being

the worst client I've ever seen before.

Mm-hmm

If, if I, that was the only client I worked with, then it would be

like, oh, I don't, oh, I might, you know, it might take a little longer to kind

of get back in the swing of things, but there's enough to, to shift, focus to

that even if I am feeling, you know, kind of struggling or burnt out on one thing

that there's something else I can turn to.

Yeah, yeah.

That's great.

I know what you mean.

It's and it's good, I think just getting up and giving yourself space for a

minute, because everyone runs into that where they just need a, a moment, right.

A break.

So, and then you come back and do do work or just do something else.

I so I was looking at time management stuff and just how, like, you should

knock out the most difficult task first cuz a lot of people will try to do all

the small tasks first and just have wins.

They can cross stuff off, but then they're usually doing a bunch of unimportant

things and not doing the one that's really important and gonna be a burden.

And so I've been trying that strategy not very successfully, but , I

also think there's something to be said to maybe doing that, but then

doing the small things in between to, you know, get through blocks.

But it's, it's funny when you look up time management, cuz some people just say these

obvious things, you know, and you're.

Yeah, I've done that.

It's almost, I get mad at Google, like yeah.

At Google.

I know I've done that.

I'm looking for something real you know,

Yeah, I always like, I mean, I've never been a big, you know, like

a lot of people have like their morning routines and I, I would say, I guess

I mostly make coffee and that's like the, the biggest part of the routine.

But sometimes I'll, I'll have like a crazy long list of stuff and it's like,

it is nice to cross something off, but then I'll think of something else

I'm like, okay, I gotta add that on.

So the list is never fully, fully done.

Um, even if it's just like, Hey, do laundry, like look at the hamper, just

look at it, look at how tall it's stacked.

And I was like, oh, that should be something I could like easily solve.

And sometimes I'll still be like, nah, and I'll do this other thing instead, so, I

I applaud people that can have a routine.

Um, but it's just not for me.

I'm not, I'm not one of those either.

And with laundry, I get annoyed cause I'm always wearing something.

So it's never done, you know, it's just never complete.

And I've tried the whole thing where, oh, maybe I'll get everything done, but it's

like, I always have to put something on, so it just, it ruins the whole thing.

Laundry is just it's defeatist, you know?

Um, so you also have a podcast, "Good People, Cool Things".

I get what that is, but tell, tell the listeners what, what is your podcast?

Yeah.

It's uh, an interview style podcast where I speak to good

people go doing cool things.

No, I'll do, I'll give more than that.

Uh, so it's a it's conversations with people who have either started their own

business or are musicians or authors.

And the overall goal of it is that they will inspire you.

Whoever is listening to do.

Your own cool thing, your own creative project, not necessarily start a

business, but you certainly can.

I'm not gonna stop you.

I think that's awesome.

Um, and it's just, honestly, it's been just like a fantastic way to meet

new people from all over the world and just see what they are doing.

And like there's things I've learned about that.

I would've never.

You know, never thought was a profession.

There's a fire, breathing sushi chef.

I got to interview the creator of Taboo and Outburst, uh, and, and a whole

host of other board games like that.

And I always ask musicians, this is probably my favorite questions,

just to tell me about their worst gig that they've ever played.

I I'll give I'll give one quick shout out to David Shabani

who's an Austin based rapper.

His worst gig.

He was at a bar where it was one other person in the bartender.

Maybe one friend there, but they were playing Fast and Furious 2, Too

Fast, Too Furious on, uh, on a TV on the stage, like while he was

singing.

So he was like, even sometimes I was like taking a break to like, look

and be like, oh, this is a good suit.

but even out of that, the one person who was there, who he didn't know,

came up to him afterwards and he was like, Hey, can I buy a CD?

Like, I really enjoyed that.

And so it's, uh, it's always got kind of like an inspirational slant to it.

Cuz usually in the moment, whatever your worst gig or your worst project,

whatever it is is usually terrible.

But then afterwards makes for a great story.

You can go back and laugh at it or just be sad about it for all time.

But usually most people like look back with fondness on it.

Yeah.

You move on.

I mean, I do, I do stand up and stand up comedy and that gig you're describing.

I've definitely been to those kind, because sometimes these promoters will

have the most of the gigs that I do in a pub, cuz I'm open mic level, but they'll

have it in the room like in the pub, they're not gonna have it in some room on

the side or upstairs or something or in a basement, which is always a little creepy

to go into, but they just have it in the pub and the people there don't want it.

They do not want to hear your jokes at all, they just wanna be in the pub.

And so that's like always the most difficult gig cuz like what I did

where the people were just talking right in front of me and I couldn't,

and there was no way and they weren't gonna listen to me, but I

couldn't get them outta my eyesight.

So I totally understand, like having a film playing or whatever,

it's just like, Ugh, but you just kind of, you know, you do move on.

I mean, there's nothing you can do, but I can't, I don't know performing music.

I find that terrifying.

Just I can't sing anyway or rap, but, um, I don't, I guess you just

would kind of like, yeah, okay.

Yeah.

You guys are talking.

That's funny though, to have a film playing in the background and

Yeah.

It's it's outta control.

And I would think like, at least cause yeah, cuz that was that wasn't

even just like, Hey, we're just throwing you in the middle of things.

Like that was like a set show that people presumably paid money to go see.

And they're just like, nah, let's, let's give, uh, I was gonna say

let's give VIN diesel, but I don't think he's in that one.

So we'll give

the

Yeah,

screen time.

I dunno.

I might be mixing up my fast and furious movies.

My apologies.

yeah, I have no, I mean, well, there are eight of them.

So you, if you name a certain like type of actor, they're probably

gonna have been in one of them.

So you're pretty, you're pretty, safe.

You don't remember George Clooney's brief

appearance in, in fast four.

That I didn't know.

So actually that would be reason to watch.

Um, what has been, I guess, the most surprising thing to you

about having the podcast though?

I mean, I, because I think ours are they're similar, but in a way, like

just, um, a bit, a different subject, but similar idea to inspire people, to do, to

do things with other than just what, know, maybe what they're doing at the time..

But what's been the biggest, like most surprising thing to you

that you've learned either about yourself or just about someone else.

Well, if this were the first ever podcast I were doing, I'd say

the amount of time it takes . Cause I think that does surprise a lot of

people or I should say the amount of time it takes to make a good podcast.

Uh, and, and one, again, we go back to editing.

If it's just like a four hour riff of you and your bros talking about

the latest Joe Rogan podcast.

Uh, maybe there's an audience for that, but it's, it's certainly

not my my, uh, eyes would not be on them, my eyes or ears.

Um, I think for this one, though, it's just like how invigorating it is to do.

Like, there's definitely been times where I have a recording set up and

it's, you know, maybe been a long day or I have something else that I would

like to be doing or, or have to do, and I'll go into the recording and it's

just always, I come out of it feeling in a better mood than when I started.

And I'm sure at some point I'll have even, even the guest that was recording

from the restaurant, initially we, you know, got her in the car and it

turned into a great conversation.

Um, so sometimes it's just, you know, it is people's first appearance on a podcast

or they haven't done it a lot and they don't necessarily understand the audio

engineering because their exposure to podcasts, if any is Conan O'Brien Needs

a Friend where listen to those credits.

There's like 14 people that work on the show.

Like there's a lot that goes into it.

And I think for most podcasters it's, it's just us, you know, it's just us

doing all of these things and I'd like to think my broadcast journalism career

and working in radio while at college was, you know, led me up to at least be

competent of what audio should sound like, but there's definitely things where I'm

like, I can't remove this, you know, this screeching tires, cuz you're recording

from the set of fast and the furious 15.

I don't know what the pun would be for 15, but.

Just like, yeah.

Quincinera or something.

oh, now I want that to happen.

It's Vin Diesel's daughter has the Quinciñera, but a car drives

the, ah, we, we gotta write, we gotta write a fast furious, make a

cool quarter billion of a dollars.

Exactly.

then, we can hire people to help with our podcast.

Yeah, we can get editors

it's the dream, the dream.

Yeah, I agree.

I mean, the time it takes and especially just with, well, yeah,

editing, editing takes a while.

So we've talked about a couple things that could be construed as advice, but

do you have any advice or mantra that you wanna share with listeners just

that you kind of follow or that you like to impart for this kind of podcast?

Yeah.

When you are talking with people, listen to what they're saying.

I feel like I see so many conversations and have participated in somewhere.

Someone asks me a question and then I start answering and I can see

like their eyes wandering, or maybe they like pull out their phone and

they're kind of glancing through and like passively listening and, I

mean, maybe they're great at that.

But to me that just shows like a complete lack of interest.

And it's like, you're only just kind of going through the motions here or, uh,

when I lived in LA I'd get this a lot of like people would initially or learn that

I did not have any kind of connections in the movie industry for them.

And they were aspiring actors.

So they were like, all right, well, I'm gonna stop talking with you then.

But I think like everyone has interesting things going on with them.

And I think if you are genuinely curious and ask about it, like

it can lead to some, some good things for you down the road.

And if not, then

mm-hmm.

conversation.

that's that's pretty good.

Yeah.

And one thing along those lines that I've just started to do at work is if

I have a call with someone and I don't need to be at my computer, like it's

not a video call or it's not a call where I'm, you know, sharing something

or whatever, I'll just take the call on my phone and get up from my desk.

Because otherwise I'm definitely one of the people who will be, I mean, right

now, when I'm talking to you, I have my other monitor so I can look at my notes,

which I assume, you know, but like,

No I've been

offended.

This entire discussion.

I'm

oh, great.

But, um, yeah.

Is, oh, is this, is this, am I this character, but I'm just, but, um,

this is just, it's just a subtle dig at you.

"I hope you're well", but the thing is like, so I will do that.

I mean, that's just, I guess I'll just tagging onto your advice.

Like I'll just kind of get up and have Teams on my phone, just so I'm not

looking at the computer because I, you can tell too when someone is talking

to you, even if it's just on the phone, that they're just not with you anymore.

And it's really a bad feeling for, for you as the person talking,

but also the person listening.

I mean, hopefully they feel some remorse too, when they get caught.

I don't know,

They probably don't even realize that

They

don't they're so

oblivious they don't even know they're on the phone anymore.

Um, That's, that's really good advice.

And I think it's, it kind of just tracks with what I've experienced talking to you

and, and listening to your podcast, but in talking to you and interacting with

you and stuff is that you are just really kind, I mean, that's just unsolicited

feedback, I guess, that I can tell you just live genuinely in a kind way.

And so one of those things would be listening, which is nice.

So,

you.

That's very nice.

so as far as, um, the last questions are called the fun

five and it's just some questions that I like to ask every guest.

So the first one is what's the oldest t-shirt you have and still wear?

Have a, I was thinking about this, cause I think there's

a couple and I was trying to think which one was the oldest.

So I'm going to go with, when I was on campus at Miami, they

had a, uh, "hug the lake".

So there's a lake on the campus of Miami.

We did a hug, the lake to help.

I think it was just to be like, Hey, we have a lake on our campus

and like, stop doing things that might threaten its removal.

And so it was just like all the students on campus.

It wasn't every student, but a lot of students, we each just kind of, you know,

locked, locked, arms, held hands around this lake, uh, and got t-shirts for it.

So it's a big picture of a lake with its arms out.

Like it's hugging you and it's in Miami orange.

The lake is blue, but like the shirt is like the bright miami orange.

Uh, and it's, I, I guess it must have been, that was my freshman year.

So it was 2006.

So what is that?

16.

So it's old enough to drive.

Nice.

Well, that's cool.

They were, you guys did that too.

So one thing, I mean, now it's a bit different, but this question

could still apply to some people.

Um, if every day was really Groundhog's Day, the same, like the movie with

BILL Murray, what song would you have your long clock play every mo morning.

This is a, I, I was wondering if I wanted to base this on

reality where I have my current alarm is set to, uh, K-LOVE, which is a

Christian Austin based radio station, which I have not changed the radio

station in like 20 years on my alarm.

So I when I lived in LA, I, I think I might have said it to KDAY, which is

hip hop and I just never changes from them, but I actually really like waking

up to K-LOVE, cuz it's either just very inspirational songs or the hosts are

talking about something and they're super generous and nice with each other.

So it's just like a nice pleasant little conversation to wake up.

So maybe something.

Like that I could just keep my, my everyday life like I am living that,

but in the spirit of the question, I I'll go with perhaps one of my favorite

karaoke songs, which is Roses by OutKast um, because I'm assuming we're getting,

uh, different, and then this might be taking a leap, but I'm the alarm would

go off at different parts of the song.

So it actually, it probably would be the same part every day, but still there's

lots of different parts of the song.

You've got the little piano intro, which is very nice.

You've got the Caroline parts with the, the co repeat.

The chorus is very catchy as well.

And then you've got, uh, Big Boi's rap section in this.

So there's lots of different parts of the song where I enjoy it, where I'm

like, okay, I could wake up to that.

You're kind of waking up and smelling the roses, even though

they smell

nice.

poo poo as the song says.

Yes.

And that's a good karaoke song actually cause there's a variety.

And you could have someone who can't sing, do part of it

with you and someone who can.

Yeah.

You just need a little rhythm for the, the rap section and

otherwise, otherwise half of it's just the audience repeating what you say.

So it's fine.

Yeah, that's good.

Cool.

Um, alright.

Coffee or tea or neither?

I think I might be both.

I like to do coffee in the morning and then a caffeine free tea in the afternoon

with little, little honey in there too.

Smart.

Yeah, that's good.

I know, um, some of us haven't learned to not have coffee in the afternoon yet, but

oh, I'll still do it occasionally.

And I regret it every time.

Yeah.

It's almost at

like, after like 11:00 AM sometimes now where I'm just

like, I'm gonna be up all night,

but I'm gonna drink this anyway.

Cuz I feel like I need it now.

cool.

And then can you think of something that just like cracks you up or makes

you laughs already cry when you think of it or even a recent thing that

just kind of had you doing that?

Uh, yeah, I mean, there's plenty of things in life, but for

something that people could also enjoy, perhaps, uh, Nate Bargatze, uh, the

standup comedian, he has a, a bit where his friend, he basically, he played

a prank on his friend where he took a bite of his McDonald's cheeseburger and

then like wrapped it back up and gave it to him and hi, the, his storytelling

of his friend's reaction is hilarious.

And it ma I'm like laughing, just thinking about it now, but it, I don't wanna spoil

it cuz he tells it much better than I do.

But if you, if you Google Nate Bargatze McDonald's you'll, you'll be able to see.

Awesome.

Alright, last one.

Who inspires you right now?

Uh, can I say my mom?

Is that a cheat?

Yeah, no, that's

Yes.

She's I was recently home for, I was telling you about my busy month of

travel, but I just, the amount of work that's currently being done on the

home I, of, of my, my childhood home.

Um, and just how she's like keeping everything together and, and still

thriving and going through everything.

It was very nice to see.

And I was like, I'm glad you passed some of these genes along to me.

Nice.

No, that's cool.

No one, I think, I don't know.

It's always nice for, I'm very close to my mom and I think it's always

nice to hear people say they're mom.

Yeah.

Probably spend more time with us than anyone else.

So, yeah,

For sure.

At least for quite a lot, of our lives.

Um, so if people wanna look you up or know more about you, where do you want them to

Yeah, joey held dot com (joeyheld.com) has most

of my shenanigans going on.

I try not to overwhelm people with links, but you can get to the podcast.

You can get to Crisp Bounce Pass from that.

Uh, I also give a shout out.

I am in a band too.

We're called Burning Years.

So, uh, available wherever you listen to music, uh, and it is a great,

great little, uh, you know, your favorite songs from high school?

I like to say like a nice pop punk slash rock.

No, no, no.

It's, it's original songs, but it's in that that spirit.

So it'll take you back I think.

Um, and then on, on Twitter, I'm at Joseph currency and I

love meeting people on there.

So come say hello, send me your favorite gif.

We'll have a blast.

Awesome.

Well, it was great to have you on Joey.

I really appreciate you taking the time

Yeah.

to, to chat with me and,

Thank you so much.

This was a lot of fun and I wish you tepid regards now and in the future,

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I am so grateful.

You can find him online by.

Searching Rob M E T K E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch

via feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at, at more than work pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at Rabiah comedy (@rabiahcomedy) on TikTok.

And the website is more than work pod dot com (morethanworkpod.com).

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.