We always had like a running joke.

If we ever end up in Runner's World, we're going to be dead, you know.

And all of a sudden I get an email from Runner's World.

We reserved a 12 page photo spread for a Speed project.

So I emailed that person back.

I was like, here's my phone number.

Please call me.

I was like, hey, please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't believe we're relevant for your audience.

But if I put it this, like, saying, it's like, no, thank you.

They're like, we're turning this thing around.

And I was like, you know what?

Are you really?

Yes.

Are you ready for something that pushes you out of your comfort?

She's like, now's the time.

I was like, okay, give me 48 hours and bring everybody on your end together.

I have an idea.

Borderlands.

It's the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast, presented by Kip Run.

I'm so thankful, so proud to have this partnership.

They are headquartered in France, but they're looking at the US market.

I am headquartered in France and I talk to the US running world and I'm just so thankful, so happy to have them on board.

What they're releasing in 2026 is special.

Stay tuned.

The voice that you heard in the intro of this podcast is that of Nils Aaron.

He is the founder of the Speed Project.

We found ourselves together in Albi, France at the 24 hour World Championships because the Speed Project had just announced BL as their new athlete.

And the first thing that BL was going to do was attempt to beat his own record of 245km in 24 hours, of which he did do at that event.

And it was incredible to watch.

So I wanted to go hang out, support Beal, watch him do that, and then hang out with Nils and the content team that he had put together for that event.

And we decided we would do a podcast.

So late that evening, maybe closer to midnight, Nils and I steal a table from one side of this stadium and put it in the middle of this rugby stadium on the field.

And we talk for a while.

And since I had never run the speed product before, I had a lot of questions.

I was super curious about what it was compared to what I thought it was now, because there's a lot of media that goes out when any one of these events happen, whether it be from Los Angeles to Las Vegas or from Marseille or from Chamonix to Marseille.

Wherever they do it, a lot of content goes out and So I think the misnomer is that I see that content and therefore I know what it is when in reality, and I heard Mike Kratzer put it this way, is that I don't really necessarily know what Speed Project is.

I know what lens Mike Kratzer sees the Speed Project through.

And so for every participant of the Speed Project, there's a different story about what the Speed Project has meant to them and what it's about.

But I will say this.

Everybody has a story of what it means to them and it feels different than the ultra trail running world that I am used to.

Yes, Zion as a race means something to me, but not everybody.

Maybe their journey in that means something, but Vacation Races isn't necessarily like this special organization that everyone who runs that race would go and defend, you know, to a meme Smith who says something negative about it.

If someone makes fun of Vacation Races, I might even jump in.

Hey, that's silly.

But you don't do that with the Speed Project.

People really love it.

And it's not because they're too serious, though maybe they are.

It's because it has meant something so much to them that they're protecting this thing that means so much to them.

This is what I've gathered, again from.

Not having done it.

So in general, I consider Nils a friend.

You know, if he's got an interesting.

Story that's emerg out of the Speed Project, any one of the events that they do or anything behind the scenes, I'm always game to hear from it because I think he's a master storyteller and even bigger than that.

We talk about this in this episode.

He's a curator of the highest ilk.

I mean, he curates in a way that is special, brings people together, brings things together under a certain roof, under one roof, under a purpose and a mission.

And the takeaway is usually a damn fine experience and one that people remember for the rest of their lives.

And it's because of that.

Nils Errand is the first guest on what I'm calling the Four Turns.

It's four distinct seasons of the podcast coming out this year.

The first one is I look at the winter solstice and every year the sun passes four major milestones, four turns on one such turning.

The winter solstice days move from growing in more darkness every day to growing in more light every day.

Each day has slightly more sunlight than the day before.

And then we lead into the spring equinox where the days move to having more sunlight than not in the Northern hemisphere.

We leave darkness behind and we charge toward this life giving light as the sun becomes more dominant than the moon, let's say.

But soon we run into the summer solstice and this is a moment that psychologically we tend to think of as the moment, you know, where summer is arriving and it's going to be hotter and yes, it is going to be that.

But actually every day is getting darker than the day before at this point.

And then the fourth turning is where dark now dominates the light.

The days are now darker than they are light.

The four turns can be told through running.

This is how I've been thinking about it a lot lately.

A sport that we know is far more than forward movement and progress and fitness and all that.

Yes, it is those things, but it's also, also about what we do with all the time that we have to think while we run or we don't think while we run.

In the first turn we look at the winter solstice and celebrate the people who are bringing light into the world through running.

The winter solstice celebrates not just new light, but more light, life giving and life sustaining light.

It represents that the darkness is behind us and that we are walking towards something better.

So today it's Neil Zarind of the Speed Project.

If you follow the Speed Project, you know you get it.

The Speed Project brings light to the world and many runners would agree.

TSP is net good for the world.

Nils Errand is net good for the world.

So enjoy this conversation from a rugby field, the 24 hour world champs.

Yes, there's sometimes talking in the background.

There's loud noises in the background.

We are at a world championship.

In fact, like the first 60 seconds or so, there's some annoying talking in the background.

I promise it'll go quick.

I thought about editing it out, but it was just material to the conversation and how we kicked it off.

So hang with us, enjoy.

All right, we're recording.

Recording.

So with tsp, when you started it, is it what it is now?

Is it what you thought it would.

Be when you did your first event?

Oh heck no.

No.

What did you think it would be?

Was it just going to be one event and that was it?

It wasn't even going to be an event.

It was going to be a thing?

No, not even that.

It's going to be a weekend.

And a weekend turned into a mediocre film that made me believe it would.

Lead to something which it didn't.

And then I recognized that I had to like make people experience it.

And then I, like, invited a handful of people and they came.

And I was very nervous that them taking time off, coming to la, renting a camper van, it's going to be worth the experience.

I was nervous all weekend and then it clearly did something to them and they invited their friends and so on.

And then slowly I had a feeling like, oh, my God, this, this becoming a thing.

Yeah.

You know, and then the thing became into, I don't know, you know, whatever it is.

Whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's.

That's interesting in and of itself.

What if someone who's never heard of it asks you, what is it?

What is it?

It's not a race.

Yeah, I know that.

So it's funny.

So I spend a good amount of time in Costa Rica when I don't have to be anywhere.

And when I'm in Costa Rica, I always go to the same little cafe during lunchtime.

And so I come to that spot and they're like, oh, my God, where have we.

Where have you been?

I was like, I was in California.

And they're like, oh, what did you do in California?

I was like, I was there for work.

They're like, what do you do for work?

I was like, oh, it's complicated.

And they all look at me and like, oh, he's in the drugs business.

And nobody asked ever.

Yeah.

What I do for a living now.

So I have a hard time answering it.

Yeah, it's a moment that occurs now more often than it used to, and it brings us as a core group who work on it together, and it allows other people to spend time with each other and create some magic.

And there are products now being made, stories told, records set, and you fill in the blank.

Yeah.

So I have a hard time answering this question.

And I guess the brand person in me would be like, you need an elevator pitch for that thing.

I mean, also the brand person in you.

And we sat on this lawn, we're at the World Championships, 24 hour World Championship, celebrating your athlete, feel your runners, the people who've done it.

I mean, they're not even runners.

Like, this is probably what we're gonna unpack here.

It's this mystical thing of people who participate in this thing.

They're out telling your story for you.

And so when you see a documentary come out by somebody who ran it or a video come out, or an Instagram post, do you sometimes get language for how you talk about it based off of how they've talked about it?

Yeah, it's kind of Interesting.

Mainly I get that type of language when I read people's applications, and that's really where the true magic is.

And nobody gets to see it but me.

Or there's a couple people who work with me now on that.

And the applications are really the heart of it because that's where a lot of.

A lot of the unpacking happens for individuals that reveals like, hey, what's their true motivation for life, for running, for overcoming whatever is a barrier for them or a challenge?

And that, you know, that like, relationship and the insights and people becoming really vulnerable is really the heart of what TSP is.

Yeah.

And from there, there like a million other layers and at some point, million and one is the Instagram post or the film or the article or.

And I'm not anti that, you know, I'm not anti telling the story and I'm not anti sharing it, clearly, because otherwise I wouldn't be on your podcast, even while I'm being very selective on who I talk to, you know, and it's not really my mission to, I don't know, put the thing on the front line.

Yeah, it's about the participants.

It's about the sport.

And I think that is one of the elements that I feel most challenged by when looking at the industry and looking at the hyped sport.

It's like, hey, are people in it for the right reasons?

And I'm sure people asked that about Speed Project and there are a bunch of people who like, roll their eyes about us, you know, and like, I think one thing we can say is like, we're, I guess, pull polarizing to a certain moment, a certain degree.

And certain people, like, feel like their life has changed in a Speed Project experience for them.

And other people are going to be like, God, leave me alone with that bullshit.

Which is okay, I'm cool.

But I think what I love about you.

So you said moments.

I feel like this whole podcast can be couched in this idea of moments.

You said that TSP is a moment, or it creates moments or it gives space for people to.

To have moments.

I feel like I'm a rationalist.

I like to think I'm rational.

I'm probably less rational than I think I am.

But then there's this side of me that loves everything that's not rational, that happens in a moment.

So maybe I can explain what has happened to me at really high mileage in a race.

I could give you the rationale behind biologically what happened to me and.

And nutrition is low and salt is low.

And I didn't.

Yes, let's get into this.

Making sure nutrition is not allowed.

All right.

I gotta be able to endure this.

Sorry, but there's.

If you're listening to this, my bad.

The moments that you create.

Like, I don't know.

I want to talk more about moments because I feel like I've been changed in moments.

It's.

To me, it feels mystical, it feels spiritual to a degree.

Anytime I've talked to someone who's done a solo or done it with a large team, it's like there's all.

It's always.

It does always go back to moments.

It goes back like there was a pole line.

I hear a lot of people talk about pole line and lalv.

Like something happens on pole lines or hard power lines.

Power lines, sorry.

Pole line is Wasatch 100 power lines.

When.

When Lydia Oldham had talked about it or Mikey's talked about it.

Tom Reynolds.

I mean everyone's kind of knows this and there's a moment that happens there.

Or you know, am I making any sense?

Like, do you feel like there's the.

The power in a moment?

I just interested in that 100%.

And I guess it goes all the way back to like my failed self in school and in a sense system.

And like I went to school in Germany and I went to nine schools in 11 years, three boarding schools and it was a total nightmare.

And leaving that system, the moment I turned 18, I quit school.

And there's a whole story on where I went and so on.

But like the short connect connective M comment is like.

Like a year or so later I got really into like the nightlife world.

And I thought because I sucked at school, I'm gonna suck at life.

And when I found, I guess this world that was within.

This club or pop up club culture where we were part of at that point there was just like the beginning of pop up club culture.

Meaning like it wasn't four walls that were opened every Saturday, Friday, Saturday, and always the same kind of like lighting and like the same bar and so on.

We went into non traditional, unconventional venues and build a club in.

And sometimes for one night and sometimes for like a summer.

Oh my gosh, this is making sense to me now.

And so I got introduced to that world when I was 19.

Okay, in Berlin.

No, it was like all over northern Germany, but Berlin.

And it was like such a wild moment for me because I was like, oh fuck, I'm actually good at something.

And it is creating a moment.

And that type of moment is curated by light, by atmosphere, by alcohol, drugs, by music, by architecture, by.

You name it.

Yeah.

And that was.

That was like, my world.

And I was like, oh, this.

This is like.

Like when people.

I was like, at my friend's birthday, and there's this.

All artists.

And someone is like, are you an artist?

I was like, no.

And then I kind of reflected on my answer, and I was like, you know what?

Sometimes I am, I guess, and my medium.

My medium is experience.

Yes.

You know, and so the first time me identifying that there is something to this was when I was, like, 19, and it was in the world of, like, nightlife.

And so that's carried through my entire career, I guess.

Yeah.

And now we're fortunate enough that sport and movement play such a big role in the output.

Okay.

Gosh, that already gives me.

Helps me understand TSP even better.

So there's this thing that I've always done.

I think we have a bit of a crossover here to some degree, but the way that I've always described myself, I am creative.

I love to do creative things.

I'd love to make music.

None of the things that my hands have ever actually tangibly created have been caught fire.

People have loved them.

My music, my painting, anything like that.

But what it always has done well is I've always.

I haven't been able to put words to it, but it's this idea where I can take someone who's creative or someone who has a dream or has a passion, and I can put them in a spot or not even put them in a spot.

I'll come and I'll surround them, and I'll block all the things from them that keep them from being who they are.

And that might be organizational to some people.

Like, okay, I'm just a manager.

I'm blocking obstacles and providing resources.

But I've always thought of it as more than that, because this has been my.

This has been the art that's been most useful to the people in my life is where I come and say, you have a dream.

Okay, I'm gonna do this.

I'll help you with business stuff, or I'll help you with social, like, these practical things.

But in the end, ultimately, what I'm trying to do is create, get rid of all the stuff that keep that person from having their moments, because those moments are the things, to me that are most, like, powerful.

So for me, I didn't have the imagination you had.

I just had the imagination of, maybe I'll make a race in Salt Lake City.

Because I had moments in races.

And I thought, oh, I've had that.

I want to give that to someone else.

So I'll do this.

I'll create my race, and I'll say, I'll put on a really good race because I've got good operating partners, and I'll make this circle around every single runner and say, you can just run.

Like, you can just.

But don't just run like, this is your opportunity to have a moment.

But I still don't.

You know, I still feel like that moment idea is mystical, but it's also so tangible to me as well, because I.

My life is a series of moments that I.

That have changed me, you know, mostly.

In running, I feel like.

Like you're underselling yourself a little bit, but because I feel like there's curatorial work that happens, you know, curation.

Okay.

And if you look at the art world, curators are a critical part of that, like, world.

They're setting the tone.

They're, like, pulling the things.

They're blocking things out or they're amplifying, you know, and they're essential for artists, for that industry, for trend setting or for paving paths for, like, there's.

They play a big role.

And I feel like, for me, looking into other worlds outside of sport inspires me a lot, and that's where I pull a lot from.

Yeah.

And I think the art world is one of them, and I was lucky enough to have had a little bit of exposure to it, and I've learned a ton in that world.

And I think you're a curator, you know, and it's an essential and very important part.

I always wanted.

I think the reason I downplayed is because I always wanted to be the artist.

You know, I always.

Of course, we always wanted to be the athlete.

You know, we're sitting here eating Haribo.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which one of these athletes that are running 24 hours around us would rather just be sitting here eating candy right now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think maybe that's what's fun about this, is that you can't put TSP on a bumper sticker.

Anything that fits on a bumper sticker is either a lie or incomplete or requires explanation.

So you can't reduce it down.

Like, I feel like TSP requires conversation in a bag of candy.

You know what I mean?

My original question, or one that came to mind originally, I told you before we hit record, was, did you mean to start a spiritual movement?

But now, as you already have said it this way, is that it's not so much that you have did that is that you made space.

And what happened in that space, and what I mean by spiritual is that like people is transcendent.

Like, what happens in the TSP space when people talk about it is often in the language to me of transcendence and going beyond themselves or outside of themselves, or doing something that they never.

Thought that they could do, or getting.

Into this specific moment in this specific spot, this specific part of the day.

And all of a sudden they realized that they love their dad, you know, and it wasn't all of a sudden they realized that, you know, they better hit the next mile at 10 minute miles or else.

No one has ever talked like that about tsp.

It's always been this spiritual language, this mystical language.

So do you think you created space for that and that's what happened, or did you mean for that to happen?

I mean, sometimes having good result by accident, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, sometimes we receive good ideas and sometimes we.

Yeah.

So I think, in short, the idea of where I thrive is in open space, you know.

Yeah.

That's why I.

That's why we picked the middle of this football field as a metaphor.

Yeah.

And the way I got introduced to running was after moving to us in my mid-20s, I was broke, barely spoke English, and I didn't know anybody, and I was living in Los Angeles.

So my kind of like anchor for the day that gave me sanity was getting out of the door and running through the neighborhood.

And so it was totally like kind of free flow, no watch board shorts, you know, like there wasn't a concept around it.

It was just like, I get out the door every morning and go through that whatever, like, routine, you know, and that was my running.

And then I went to a marathon and recognized that the sport that I put on such a pedestal because it gave me so much was actually lived in a totally different way by what I thought at that point.

Everybody else, which was mega regimented, you know, and it's like very like, narrow.

Yeah.

And I'm not saying that with any judgment.

You know, it was just different.

And it was very, like, condensed.

And also it just like felt foreign to me and I didn't feel understood.

And so I left that moment.

I was like, hey, you know what?

This is great for everybody else, but not for me.

And I left that marathon.

I was like, I'm just gonna go on my own journey.

Journey.

And that's what I then did.

And then in the moment later when we decided we're gonna invite others, two things kind of like Stood out to me.

One was this regimented way that running was exercised elsewhere.

And I felt very strongly to go on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, which is removed, Removing as many guardrails as possible.

We're like, okay, what is the least amount of elements that we can determine to allow space for our participants to make it their own?

And that was the moment when this idea of no rules was born.

And a lot of people, like, misunderstand no rules as, like.

Like you, I can do whatever I want.

Like, anarchy, you know, like, it's not a call for anarchy.

Actually, the no rules element has serious implications to everyone coming to tsp.

There are two key elements to it.

One is, I'm giving you space.

That means you have a responsibility to take that space.

It's very ingrained in our culture to not do that.

And the second one is you can't abuse it because then it's not sustainable.

So this idea of no rules has an implication.

And, like, the other element is like, there's a book written by Netflix founder Reid Reed.

It's called no Rules Rules.

I don't know if you've heard of it.

No.

It's pretty good.

So no Rules Rules is written by him and his head of staff, head of people, whatever it's called.

And they speak about, like, removing guardrails in a corporate setting.

And the response is, it only works if you have high density of top talent.

Oh, interesting.

Because the same element applies to that world.

So this idea around no rules or having the responsibility to take up the space but not abuse it, it's actually very intense commitment from everyone that participates, you know?

Yeah.

So that is an essential kind of like, element.

So going back to your question, I guess we did create space without determine how you're gonna use it.

Yeah.

By removing those rules, it gave people even more space.

So there's like this element of minimalism, but not anarchy, because in that minimalism, you were differentiating yourself from the stuff you hated.

So I'm recapping to make sure I'm tracking.

So you had the stuff that you didn't like, you didn't resonate with.

You pulled all the stuff you didn't like, and now you're over here as minimal as can be.

You have a start, you have a finish, and no rules.

But that goal of that was first to be, not this, not to be the other thing that you didn't like.

And then what ended up happening is that it created a lot more space, but people who.

Well, maybe this is the spiritual element.

People needed that in their life.

Like, when you talk to someone who's done tsp, it's like they needed it in that moment in their life, that time.

Like, it's come into their life at a time time where they needed something.

And a marathon is wildly valuable in a hundred thousand different ways.

This one is just really valuable in this other way of, like, don't look at your watch.

Don't even look at a map.

You know, but that's like, you're already, like, pushing people in one corner.

It's like, hey, if.

If.

If you want to run, if you want to.

If.

If you want to look at a.

Map or want to look at your watch, it's like, if you're coming to TSP to annihilate the record and you're going to have a team working on the optimal route, who am I to say that's wrong?

Okay.

I think it's great.

And if you're coming for whichever other reason which might lead to not looking at a map, it's equally great.

And I think not.

I think our responsibility is to make.

Sure.

There'S a little bit of everything.

So I get asked all the time.

I was like, oh, there's an application process.

What are you looking for?

I was like, I'm looking for everything else.

A little bit.

Balance.

Is that the right word?

Are you looking for a balance in the people?

I don't know if balance is the right word.

It was like, I'm just.

I'm looking for.

Yeah, I guess balance is it, you know, not too much of one thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm tracking.

And that creates energy, right?

Yes.

And there's a lot of, like, polarizing things, and there's a lot of like.

Like juxtaposition that kind of, like, creates the magic.

It's like.

And that's really, like, one thing that I thrive in is the sweet and sour, you know?

Man, I wish I could have gotten those chicken McNuggets.

Okay, now you sound like a curator.

Now I get it.

That makes sense to me because.

So my favorite museum in Paris, the only one I've given myself time to go to, is the Picasso Museum.

I love Picasso.

One part.

Yes.

Because of what everything meant, where he was at in life.

And there's an element of it also that I just love to look at it.

I just love to look at it.

He's got thousands of pieces.

So how do you choose what goes on the wall?

How do you make this piece stand out?

You do something on this wall that sets you up, you see this thing first and it sets you up to see the next thing or on an album.

You know, back when we listened to full albums instead of just songs, you know, song eight, song three, five and eight were like, you know, major parts of the album.

But 8 can't be great unless 7 sets you up for 8.

So on some levels, you've got the lineup, the roster, the people who are all like, by this person being there, this team being there, it helps you see this team better and vice versa.

You're a curator.

That's interesting.

I wouldn't have.

If you didn't say that you saw me as a curator, I wouldn't have been thinking in that mode.

But now it's like, oh, that's like, that's amazing.

That's really interesting.

And it's such a fun and rewarding role to be in.

Yeah, I bet.

Because through exactly that approach, people feel or are being seen and heard and we are like, we have an ability or an opportunity to be a platform to amplify, to show that's our responsibility by now, you know?

Yeah.

That's powerful.

So again, you're making these choices, decisions, you're surrounding yourself with people that, that's doing this.

Like someone to be seen.

You know, maybe it's.

Maybe it's someone who's successful and maybe it's someone who's not.

But you've done something important that you feel is important.

You've done something maybe you have never felt important.

You go in this place and to say that you feel seen.

Like, how often do you get to say that you feel seen?

Like, even that's, it's sort of abstract.

But how often, how often do you feel seen?

Well, if someone picks you out and said, this is why I picked you.

You're here because of this.

That's meaningful.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing is like, okay, how do we find.

Follow through on the idea.

Right.

And how do we live up to the expectation we're setting for ourselves if we have experiences with 1500 people?

Right, right.

And yeah, we can't.

Yeah, I guess.

But then we have moments with 60 people, you know.

Yeah.

And choose your poison.

I guess.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And I, I think for us, at the same time, we just also want to have a blast.

Yes.

And we want to like, operate in flow state.

We want to, like, have the ultimate, like, time for, for ourselves.

And if we create that and if we're creating a moment for this team that works on it and they are in tune with each other, that Then influences everyone else around us.

We had our race in Chamonix.

This.

Summer, and we had the house that slept 15 people.

You know, it was a nice house because I knew it's like, well, it's going to be cramped.

We're going to be there for seven days, so we're going to get, like.

Going to get a nice house.

And we were there.

And I would say at least half of the people didn't know each other.

And it was a wild mix of super rad people.

And we worked day and night for seven days, cooked there together.

We didn't go out for dinner once because we spent all the money we.

Had on the house, you know, but.

There was not a bit of friction.

And it was such a fucking vibe and the momentum we had together and all of it was.

Yeah.

I, like, just left so energized from that.

It was so beautiful.

All right.

When I think about.

I mean, I love to kind of think about businesses, break them down.

When I think about everything that you talk about, TSP is running is just a canvas for everything that TSP is.

Could running, I mean, could tsp.

TSP could be a number of different things.

Things could be a football club.

It could be a football club.

Yeah.

I mean, so that'd be challenging.

But the principle remains.

You know, when you look at, like, when you list out these are the value, if you do like a.

This is the company values of tsp, you can look at that based off what I'm hearing and be like, is running a value of TSP or is running the canvas that this thing that you're building is happening on?

Fill in the blank, you know?

Yeah.

It's like, I think running has a lot that attracts me and attracts a certain type of person.

Yeah.

And that's why I feel like running is.

Comes very natural to us.

Yeah.

But for sure, it could have been like.

It could have been means not even a sport.

Right.

Right.

Like, it could be.

Totally.

Could have been techno, you know, if you wanted to.

Yeah.

I mean, you find that when people do TSP and the.

The switch flips and they get it, like, what do they usually do next?

I mean, are they all in?

Are they like, hey, reaching out?

Like, hey, what can I do?

Can I do more?

Or do they just run a lot of times?

Or do they ever just, you know, you.

You talk about people who run it and kind of you talk about this community.

So I guess I'm wondering, like, what's.

What is the community?

Like, what are they doing?

Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting.

So there are different type of entry points into our little like, sphere or world or whatever you want to call it.

And there's always some sort of progression in the relationship between someone and the thing.

And I think one thing to set this up is important.

Like, when I initially had the idea of running from LA to Vegas, I was at the time surrounded by zero percent runners.

Like all my friends were like, skate in skateboarding, surfing, photographers, creatives and so on.

And I started already running and I was the odd one that got up before everybody else, you know, And I was like thinking about this like, moment of like, I. I think I'm like, I had this idea of running to Vegas and I was like, when am I going to tell my friends about this?

You know?

And I was like, so it's marinating on it.

And then like one night.

And to be honest, I'm not sure how much I'm imagining that night or if it was actually true, but like my imagination recalls that night in a.

Certain way, which was like, we're sitting in our like living room and I had like 3 roommates when I initially moved to the US was awesome.

Found them on Craigslist.

Like, there's like, there's a bazillion rabbit holes we can get into.

I try to like keep us out of them.

Yeah.

Anyway, I was sitting there, I was like, okay, tonight is the night.

I'm going to tell them about this idea of running to Vegas.

And so I was like, hey guys.

And like everyone's like looking up.

And I was like, I have to like share something.

I have this idea and dream and I want to run to Las Vegas.

And then I looked into the room.

It was kind of odd silence.

And at someone, at some point, someone's like, can you grab me a beer out of fridge?

So I was like.

And then like.

So I was like, I don't know, what are we going to do later?

You know, that was it.

That was it.

What year was this?

So first TSP was 2013.

So it was like in around that time.

And basically that was the first and last time I talked to my friends about this.

And then I met Blue Benidam, who is basically the person.

I've learned everything I know about running.

And he is just a force of positivity, of knowledge of everything you can imagine and running, especially marathoning and like running fast.

He was like a 220 marathoner and all the things.

Yeah.

And so I met him at some point.

He was also a surfer.

He Played in a reggae band.

He spoke pod.

Like, he wasn't, like, just a runner.

Not that you can be just a runner, but, like, he was, like, more than a runner.

And so I gravitated to him, and I learned a lot from him.

Him, as I said.

And eventually I proposed to him.

It's like, hey, like, I want to do this thing.

It's running to Vegas.

And he's like, yeah, let's do it, but only if we do it as fast as we can.

I was like, oh, here's the other side of the spectrum.

Yeah.

I was like, I guess your fast might be different than mine, but sure, let's do that.

Anyway, we assembled, in total, six runners, two other guys, and two other women.

And so we were six, and then basically decided we're going to run to Vegas and doing this.

And this is, like, several months after this, like, odd, awkward moment in my living room.

So I, like, took this bag.

I was like, hey, guys, you might not remember, but I've told you, I'm.

Going to do this thing.

I'm doing it now.

And all of a sudden, everybody's like, huh?

Okay.

And they're like, have you figured out the route?

I was like, nope.

And they're like, do you need help with that?

I was like, sure.

And someone's like, do you have someone photographing you?

I was like, nope.

Do you want to do it?

I was like, yeah.

And it's like, so then everyone kind of came on board and basically picked their own role.

I was starting to contribute to this, and then we were in this moment of just like, okay, we are going on an adventure together, and we're thriving because everybody was just doing something.

And it was like, was involved.

Everyone was involved.

And so that was the birthplace of this idea of no spectators.

Because no spectators is.

No, not.

Oh, they're running through the desert.

There's nobody cheering me on.

No spectators is the concept of everybody participate, Everybody contribute.

So if everybody participates and everybody contributes, there's enough.

There's always a role.

And again, we're not determining how you participate.

And if you choose the right drive a camper van, guess what?

You're more important than the strongest athlete in your team, because if that damn.

Campervan gets lost, you're screwed.

So it equalizes the playing field.

Yeah.

It expands the sport to something else, but to more than that.

And it allows entry points into this world that are not exclusive, tied to running.

And so going back to the original question as like, hey, what is community?

Or what does that mean?

Or what are we?

Yeah, again, we're going to this.

Going back to this place of like, we're not determining what your role is within this.

And we have like, people that work in schools and they started programs within TSP that contribute to gender equality.

We have like super successful business consultants.

We're their adventure vacation, and they're running registration for us and flying themselves across the world, you know, and we have athletes that are performing.

We have, We're.

We became a platform for creatives.

People get hired based on who's being, who's presenting our content within our channels.

It's super dope to see.

Yeah.

And we are, we became, We.

We somehow were put in position to support and contribute to this to all the participants.

That allows us to give back and go back to balance.

Because, like, if everybody gives, there's enough.

You're right.

If people come to consume, you lose balance.

Interesting.

Okay, so from day one, everything that you.

Everything that maybe you can articulate more clearly, and you've done it a lot of times, everything that you just articulated about TSP happened in that first one naturally.

That first moment that you did it naturally.

When did you, when did you start to be able to name those things?

Did you name them immediately?

Like, oh, amazing.

No spectators, all my friends are in.

Or when.

When were you able to name it?

No, it's like, it was like.

I think it's.

There's like a longer timeline to it, you know, and I still find myself recognizing things and it's like, oh, I can pinpoint to that now.

You know, there are beliefs first and then beliefs form into to fundamentals and those fundamentals are being lived and then they create the foundation you can point back to.

Yeah.

You know, and that gives you footing and it allows you to like, invite other people in because you're stable, you know?

Yeah.

So there wasn't a concept behind any of.

Was just like, okay, this feels right and we're being open to thought, you know, I didn't say it's like, oh, we need a film about this thing.

It's like my friend who is a filmmaker decided that, you know, if there would have not been a film about it, there would have never been an experience about it.

Because.

Because I could have never been bummed.

About not performing film.

Right.

There wasn't the reason the film wasn't the reason it wasn't performing.

It was just like.

Yeah, there's another.

Rabbit hole to that, I guess, because.

Out of the first experience came a film.

There was an 18 minute film.

And it was in the beginning of Instagram when it all started.

And believe me, I feel strongly about Instagram in all kind of ways now.

But at the time, what it enabled us is like, to meet people that thought about.

Thought about the sport in a similar way than we did.

Yeah, yeah.

And I was sitting in L. A and I'm meeting people in like Copenhagen, in London, in New York, in Turkey, you know, and all of a sudden, like, wow, like, you think the same way I do.

I didn't think there was anybody else in the sport that did that.

Yeah.

And we're like, hey, we have this like, random film we made with us running from LA to Vegas.

And at the time there was like barely any non unconventional content in the sport, right?

Yes.

So we had this like 18 minute film of a bunch of wildcats running from A to B through the desert.

And everyone's like, heck, yeah, we're gonna watch that.

Yep.

And if I say, like, we did screenings, you know, quote unquote, we sent.

People the Vimeo password, it's like we would like, just put the laptop here and have two more runners join us with beers.

That's the screening.

Yeah.

But we then also had.

We took over Wyn and Kennedy's lobby in Portland with a couple hundred people.

That's cool.

Yeah.

So we had a couple real screenings.

And so the feedback was like, overwhelming.

Everybody's like, oh, my God, this is so cool.

Yeah.

And if you hear that often enough, you know, you're like, oh, look at us.

You know, we're on to something.

We cool.

We cool.

You know?

And then we released it online and there's like, oh, mediocre film, Small miniature audience.

What happens?

Nothing.

I was so bummed.

I was like, oh, we didn't break.

The Internet, you know.

Yeah.

And then I had to recalibrate and I was like, oh, I didn't mean to break the Internet.

I meant to go on an adventure with my homies.

Yeah.

And that's what we did.

And that was rad.

And it, like, it did all the things that I could not even imagine.

Yeah.

Few weeks later, I'm out with my friends and one of them pulls me aside, puts his arm around me late night.

He's like, niels, this BE project was the coolest thing I've done in my life.

And I rode my bike home that night.

And I was like, this guy Zach, you know, and he likes ski races, he mountain bikes, he started a bike company.

Like, he gets out the door, you know, it wasn't us who got him the first time off his couch.

And he came to tsp, made the map and drove the fucking camper van for 40 hours, 3 miles per hour.

And he tells me that was the coolest thing he did in his life.

And I was like, fuck, you know what?

We need to invite them to experience this.

We can't have them sit at home and watch us do it.

It's not going to cut it.

That's what the mo.

That was the moment where I was like, okay, we got to invite everyone who did the screening to come out, do this.

Whoa.

So when you're building a brand, you've got all these years where you, the brand builder, are mission critical.

Without you, it doesn't happen.

It falls apart.

And then you go into this awkward stage where the brand is starting to take a life of its own, but it's still dependent on you.

And then you go to this next stage where the brand no longer needs you.

It now dictates what's going to happen next.

To a degree, in my observation, it feels like you're at this stage where the brand is.

Is established enough to where it doesn't need you.

Was there ever a point in any of that phase?

And you can.

You could probably see that phase different than I've just observed it, but was there a point in any of those phases where you almost killed it and you were just done with it?

Oh, yeah.

Tell me some of those.

I mean, there was bazillion moments of.

Like, we had a long.

So Scotty Crow and Scotty, like, is besides of a lot of other people, but Scotty is an essential person of this journey that is tsp.

And Scotty, besides of being an amazing super close friend of mine, has really shaped kind of the voice of TSP together with me and has really, like, been a mega influential person in the entire journey and so have been others, you know, like.

But especially Scotty and I had a certain moment where we're like, yo, Las Vegas, getting too hyped.

Should we just pull the plug quietly and walk.

Walk off stage, you know, like, finish.

At the top, like, go out on top.

Yeah.

And.

And then I like, we.

We basically made the decision to do that.

And I talked to my friend Daniel Dart, and he played in a punk rogue band, which one time again.

Okay.

And Daniel, dear friend of mine, and I think he had a register their team.

And I called him, I was like, yo, calling TSP off.

And he was like, he's like, what?

I was like, yeah, man, getting too hyped.

We're like, calling it off.

And he got so pissed at me.

And he's like.

He went on this tangent about like his band was keeping it real and basically they fell apart.

And, you know, it.

It had like a. I don't know, I don't want to say sad ending, but it had not the impact he was looking for.

And then you look at punk rock band, fill in the blank, who went commercial and kept playing their hits.

Yeah.

And he's like, who touched more with their music?

The band that kept it real or the band that kept playing their hits?

Yeah.

He's like, you can't stop playing your hits.

And I. I struggled really quite a bit with this.

And then I had to other conversations with other people and it's like, hey, through tsp, certain folks were exposed the first time to certain aspects of this world.

That is community, that is sport, that is running, that is travel adventures.

You name it.

And I was like, reminded of, like, hey, you might have experienced this now, 5, 10, 12, 14, so X times.

Yeah.

But there are people who haven't, you know.

Yeah.

And I feel like we almost have responsibilities to continue for those type, for those kind who have not experienced it yet, you know, And I'm not saying it's like, oh, my God, everybody gotta, like, do tsp.

Otherwise living is not worth it, you know, I was like, don't know.

But there's a.

There's a service element to it.

There's a.

To me, it feels like hospitality to some degree, which, I mean, I love hospitality.

My wife was in that industry for a long time.

We've dabbled in and out of it through restaurants and stuff like that.

But there's this element where in hospitality, you.

You don't have any toes to step on.

You're like, you're stuck because you're looking at somebody else.

And saying, what I'm doing right now is about making you better or your life better tonight.

And it could be with this cup of coffee that we're selling you.

We want it to be really good and make your morning better or to this degree.

What you're saying is you believe that the way that I believe that there's power in a cup of coffee in the morning.

There's power in doing tsp.

And so you are being hospitable by serving that, making it available.

I feel like that's.

At least that's how I'm hearing it for sure.

And it's definitely another space that I'm fascinated by.

When I left my agency in 2019, I was like, my partners were like, well, we need a public story of why are you leaving?

And we think you concentrating on TSP is the great story.

In my mind, I was like, it's not what I'm doing, but sure, we can say that, you know, and what I actually wanted to do was opening a hotel.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Because I was like, that's the ultimate experience, you know?

What year did you leave?

The 2019.

Okay.

And I have.

I have a friend that is insane chef and, like, very, very, very talented, creative.

And he was leaving the restaurant group at the same time I was leaving my agency.

Now it's like, I was a heavy.

User of his restaurant because it was, like, less than 100 meters from my house and just, like, insanely good.

And so we then bonded about.

Over the fact that we both left.

In clearly very soon, very soon than the tricky time of the world.

And we kind of bonded over that and then were exploring opening a hotel.

And I think the scale of the hotel we wanted to open would have required a lot of investment that would have translated to us working for someone.

And I am a strong believer of that.

I'm unemployable.

I say it two or three times a day.

Day myself.

I had to laugh when you said.

You said something else.

You said, like.

I don't remember what.

You used, but he's like.

Like, unworkable or something.

Like, I mean.

Yeah, there's a lot of, like, you're like, I'm unenjoyable to work with.

I think that's what it is.

And so that was like, definitely top of mind and hospitality and.

Or, like, experience in that sense is definitely fascinating to me.

Yeah.

So bringing that.

Yeah, that's interesting that that's true.

Because it feels like.

Okay, this first phase that you talked, you were talking about it like.

Or is it becoming too hyped?

I feel like that's the.

I don't know the best way to talk about it outside of the Enneagram.

Do you know anything about the Enneagram?

No.

What is it?

That's why it's.

It's a long story.

Okay.

But it's this.

Just this.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a way.

It's not the way.

A way of understanding people and each other.

Got it.

It's a very useful one for me.

I found it to be very useful.

Not complete, but useful.

And there's this.

There's a personality type that just has a high need to be unique.

And it's not judgmental.

It's just.

That's.

That's one of their core needs.

I want to be unique.

And so, you know, if I build something that becomes too well known, I become less unique, and that hurts.

My core desire in life and why I love Enneagram so much is that it doesn't look with judgment.

It's just there are people that are like that, and that's beautiful.

That's fine.

It feels like there's a.

There's a phase that was kind of like expressed that way.

You're like, you're building something.

It's this unique thing.

There's nothing else like it.

No one had been, let's say, use the word inspired to do things like it as they are now.

And then it's sounds like there was, I don't say a may not switch, but like a moment, another one of these moments, and it.

It.

Did it morph into this hospitality mindset?

Or was it that all along?

But then you started to feel, using your word, a responsibility.

So I feel like there was a component of.

I don't know if hospitality is the right word, but it's like, of us creating something for others.

Because the interesting thing was in the beginning, the communication we put out to the other people that did those screenings wasn't like, run our event.

I was like, no, come out and run with us.

We had a team.

We weren't organizing shit.

We were running as much as you were running.

Yeah.

So it was like, we're like, yeah, we're running this together, you know, so we experienced something and we're gonna invite you to come with to.

To experience something like that or the same, whatever.

And so it wasn't like, we're putting something on for you.

You're coming along on our trip, you know, and so it wasn't at all we're putting on something.

It was just like, we're inviting you in in the thing we are doing.

Yeah.

And then eventually what happened was like, I felt a responsibility because people traveled from further away.

Yeah.

There were more people coming.

And eventually I felt like, hey, I have this responsibility towards everyone that I extended the invite to that I need to be, to a certain degree, available.

And if I'm not available because I'm running, but I extended an invite to someone, that's not okay.

So a lot of people have asked me, it's like, oh, my God, Niels, do you wanna not run solo because you haven't done that?

It's like, yeah, but I don't wanna run it that way badly because that That I run it in June, you know.

Right.

Like I like.

And I can't run it.

Yeah.

Yet during the event.

Yeah.

And so I guess it's.

It merged or like it, it, it kind of like grew into us being a host to a certain degree, but then we also step away from certain aspects completely.

Meaning, like the actual race is pretty much untouched, like from the start to the finish.

We're not involved.

Do we tell the stories and are we there?

Yeah, but we're not getting involved.

And we are highly involved on the front end.

We're making sure you know what you're getting yourself into and what risks you're taking.

And we're for sure putting a lot of effort into reflecting, celebrating and like making sure that it's a banger at the end, you know?

Yeah.

Has there ever been a way that media has characterized it that you just hated?

Cause sometimes I think it's powerful to understand something.

Sometimes it's hard to explain something as it is and it's easier to point to what it's not.

To make it easier to say, well, we, like you did with the marathon.

Well, I don't know what we are, but we're not that.

Has there ever been any way that it's been described when you've had a piece written about it or anything like that where you're like, oh, that they've never missed?

I mean, no one has ever missed it as bad as this.

Yeah.

So we always had like the running joke, if we ever end up in Runner's World, we're going to be dead, you know.

And then that was like, for a couple years we were joking about it and all of a sudden I get an email from Runner's World from like their photo editor or something and they're like, oh my God, we, we can't believe we got your email.

Blah, blah, blah.

We reserved a 12 page photo spread for Speed Project.

And I was like, oh my God.

You know, and so I emailed that person back.

I was like, here's my phone number.

Please call me.

And they call me.

And then I was like, hey, please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't believe we're relevant for your.

Audience Politics way of like saying it's.

Like, no, thank you.

Yeah.

And then they're like, they were like, went pretty aggressive.

They were like, no, you don't understand.

Like we're turning this thing around.

And I don't know which year it was like 2018, maybe like a couple years back.

And they're like, we're turning this thing around.

And I was like, you know, what are you really?

And they're like, yes.

And I was like, are you ready for something that pushes you out of your comfort?

She's like, now's the time.

I was like, okay, give me 48 hours.

Okay.

And bring everybody on your end together.

I have an idea.

What I didn't tell us is this is the only way I want to be in Runner's World, which was basically what I presented then.

It's like we're pirating an entire issue.

All black cover, you know, And I mapped out.

I bought my first Runner's World immediately after the call.

Yeah.

And I mapped out how we would pirate the Runner's World issue, where we took all kind of the themes that reoccur in that magazine and flipped it on its head.

Young writers, left field thinking, but maintain all the kind of, like, conceptual framework of the magazine.

And I was like, we'll take over your media buying.

Even, like, we'll find media partners for that.

And that was like.

It was like a 15 slide kind of, like, concept.

And on slide two, when I first.

Added the all black cover, they're like, no, no, no, this is never going to work.

I was like, what, What.

What just happened?

From, like, yesterday, you were saying you're.

You're ready to, like, now you're shutting me down on slide two.

Yeah.

Of what I thought was a killer idea.

Yeah.

I still believe it's a great idea.

And so.

Runner's World is.

And then there would be trying.

Okay.

They, like, shut down the idea and.

They'Re like, but we still want to send that.

I was like, no, you're not sending anyone.

I mean, you can.

And we have obviously no legal ground to say it's like, oh, Runner's World, you can't send your photographer onto Santa.

Monica Boulevard on April 15.

We have the rights to that.

But they didn't publish that photo spread.

But there is.

I think there is somewhere in, like, Runner's World UK or some random Runner World thing, rundown of what is tsp.

And it felt couldn't be more off than.

Than what it is, than what it is.

But I guess it doesn't hurt us.

Because it speaks to a very far away audience.

And it's like, let it be.

And I think in those moments, I also need to reflect.

It's like, we are not here to build the coolest brand.

The brand.

And when you were referring to it earlier as a brand, it's like, yeah, it is brand.

But it's like, I don't even call it that there's an aspect to it, but it's like our objective.

Objective is not to become the coolest brand in running.

And objective is like to kind of like create this magic or allowing that magic being created between people.

And that then resonates with folks and they are craving that memory or that connection they made or that breakthrough or.

Or whatever it might be.

And they love revisiting that feeling by putting on a jacket that we made or by reading a story in the magazine we publish, or by running, like, walking down the street seeing someone wearing a TSP hat.

And like, I saw this post the other day and it was like a photo of someone who was wearing a TSP hat backwards walking on this.

On a.

On a sidewalk in New York City.

And the caption was, I don't know you, but I know what you did.

Oh, that's good.

I was like, yeah, you know?

Yeah, that's good.

I love the fact that this, that this energy kind of like translates into all those other scenarios and other moments and other kind of circumstances, and that thrives.

That gives us the motivation.

That thrives, that gives this small group that works so hard on this thing and commits so much more than just a 9 to 5 to making this happen.

Yeah.

That gives me joy and motivates me.

And what, what would you know as.

We wind down 20, 2013 Nils, think about 2025 Nils, you know, like what, what, what this is now?

Would it fully surprised or did you think you were onto something?

Did you want it to become something?

Did you ever want to leave, believe what you were doing?

Would you imagine that it is what it is now?

No, we.

We still sometimes refer to.

We feel like we're onto something, you.

Know, it still feels like that.

Yeah.

And we have, we have this.

We're like between like Jarek and like me and like just like a few folks.

It was like sometimes we, we say.

It's like I feel like we're onto something and everybody starts laughing, you know.

And so I sometimes feel like we don't even know yet where we're heading in a.

In like the least chaotic way.

Yeah.

And.

I was talking to this guy, Davide.

He.

He ran Shamoni solo and super awesome human.

And he, after that race, looked at me.

He's like, you're going with this elsewhere, and I don't know yet where you taking this.

And he thought, I know more than he does.

And I thought, he knows more than I do.

Well, that's the point, I'm saying the brand doesn't need you anymore.

And all that means is you've built something that is so clear, and you've surrounded yourself with good people who've helped you do it.

I'm not saying you've done it without people, but what it is, is it's clear.

Clear enough to where someone can grab onto it and have an imagination for it, but not direct anywhere.

Like, it's like this thing that's.

It's a living organism almost, and you can.

You can detach from it.

And it might.

I would say, even probably will go to the same place it'll go with or without you at this point, because the way that it's owned, I know that there's brand protectors and there's, you know, whatever, but I think there's like, it's an organism.

And one of the key qualities that everybody who works at TSP has is the ability to lead and follow.

Yeah.

Oh, gosh.

And I have that as well.

Yep.

And that allows us in certain moments, to take a step back.

Yes.

Let the thing do its thing.

Yeah.

And sometimes, like, okay, we gotta wiggle it into, like.

Like, we gotta give it a little spin over here or there, you know?

Yeah.

Making sure it's like it's.

It's like still heading on course, you know, somehow.

Yes.

Yeah, man.

I think it's.

It's fascinating to watch, you know, from.

From the distance that I've watched it from over the years.

I'm excited to.

I'm gonna do a TSP solo at some point.

It's so incredible.

You heard it here first.

It's so.

It's so baked in, like it's happening just a matter of which one.

I feel a deep connection to Texas.

I know you don't have anything.

What do you think?

Okay.

I do.

I am.

Okay.

This would be my last question.

When you see other races.

Texas.

A race in Texas made me think about this.

When you see another race that is very similar to your model, one city to another, do you feel proud or do you feel like not proud?

Or do you like, hey, I wish they wouldn't do that?

I mean, I don't want to put, like, you in a weird position.

Just like, do you think, man, I started something and now other people are doing it?

What crosses your mind?

I don't necessarily see a relationship between us and others.

I sometimes get asked or, like, I sometimes hear people talk like they're launching event or like they're launching a race.

And I often, like, call Me before you do it, copy and paste my waiver, please.

You know, so, so much work went into do that thing.

Yeah.

Don't do it without it.

You know, it's like I. I feel like, like often like I like believe.

In open source, you know?

Yeah.

And everyone is like, who also works within our team is like.

Like, there's no question.

You can't ever not ask.

You know, it's like you always get like transparency and it's one of the.

The elements that I.

That are radical, but I didn't believe in, you know.

Yeah.

And I think if there is a desire for someone to put on a race and there is, I don't know, capacity within the sport or with like, whatever you were doing, it's like looking at like, I don't know, Diplo's Run Club.

Yeah.

Would you find me at one one of those?

Probably not, right?

Am I a huge fan that it is happening?

Kind of.

Or Travis Barkers?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, heck, yeah.

Right?

Do I think that makes our life tougher?

Yeah.

Like, I think we have a more challenging place or we are in a more challenging place due to running being so hyped than when we were in the moment in the sport that was less than that.

That's why I like love being here.

You know, we're like, there's no hype here.

No.

We're like in the middle of France.

This is so random when you think about it.

It is divan and I'd.

It's a 24 hour World Championships.

I didn't know a couple months ago that this exists.

And it's been around for 15 years.

I looked it up, you know.

Yeah.

And it's a vibe.

I mean, it's.

It's wild that we just did this right here.

All right, well, let's do it again sometime.

Yeah.

We.

We failed.

I ate most of those.

I don't know that you ate any.

You did.

Well, I got really.

I finished my Red Bull.

That's smart.

That's smart.

I'm gonna have a headache from all.

The candy in Red Bull.

Yeah.

Salt Lake Foothills Show Races is back.

On May 30, 2026 for the fourth year of super hot running with lots of gain and a growing party at the finish line.

This year we're adding a 50 miler.

On top of the 50k half marathon and 10k.

This year we're adding prize money for our elite friends who want to join.

But it's not just about the elites.

It's about everybody.

We celebrate everybody.

Path Projects is joining us again.

They'll be at the finish line with with folks like Forest Gearman and Billy Yang hanging out, welcoming every single one of you into the very end.

Link to Ultra signup is in the show notes.

See you May 30, 2026 in Salt Lake City.