Welcome to the Mother-Daughter Relationship. Show the podcast for mothers and daughters who want to build stronger bonds, deepen their understanding and transform their relationships. I'm your host, Brittany Scott, licensed therapist and mother-daughter relationship coach. After years of working with hundreds of daughters. And mothers. I've developed strategies that help break generational patterns, heal wounds, and create the loving relationships you've always wanted. Each week I'll be sharing insights from real clients, expert interviews and practical tools you can use immediately to improve your mother-daughter dynamic. Whether you're struggling with communication breakdowns, navigating major life transitions, or simply wanna take your already good relationship to the next level. The show is for you. And yes, the transformation I guide my clients through can be yours too. I'll share more about how you can work with me. It's time to experience the relationship you both deserve. Are you ready? Let's dive in. Welcome back to the show. It's your host, Brittney. In this episode, we are interviewing a mom and daughter duo named Tess and Holly. In 2010, Tess gave her mom, Holly, traveling with pomegranates, a mother-daughter memoir that explored the power of opening up during tough times. Inspired test inscribed. Consider this research for the amazing memoir. We'll write one day. 13 years later after hearing a colleague's regret about not starting a project with her own mother, before her passing, Tess texted Holly. Now's the time. Together. They created Heart to heart gatherings, offering a safe and brave space for mother daughter pairs to share their challenges and commit to deepening their relationship outside of heart to heart. Tess leads a consulting practice gather better, and Holly is a hearing health advocate who co-produced a documentary about hearing loss called We Hear You. They believe that by sharing their story, they will encourage mothers and daughters to foster deeper connection by embracing vulnerability. Both have many stories to tell and I'm so excited that I get to bring them on and hear part of their story and also hear what they're doing with heart to heart. So without further ado, let's jump into the interview. I am so happy to have you guys join me and to share your story and also to share your work. Thanks so much for having us, Brittney.

Yeah, I was very happy to be here.

Well, when I do have interviewees, I always ask, is there a point in your relationship where things broke down or things just no longer felt good, and maybe it was either a breaking point or a turning point in your relationship? Oh,

I've

been right in Brittney. Okay. No, no softball. No softball. This is, this is always my first question because I'm like, that's the toughest part. Yeah. So I'm like, let's just get that part out of the way. Then we can jump into the rest.

I mean, I have a couple that come to mind, but I can start with one and then we can see, and mom, I'd be curious. Sure. What comes up for you? I think, I mean, breaking point, inflection point. It's like all the things. But this was several years ago now. I think it was in 2022. I was 36 or 37 years old. I am single. No kids. Wanted to have kids and was doing egg freezing. And I live in Denver, Colorado, and I asked my mom to come from New York City to come be with me for the egg retrieval. It's like an actual surgery. So I, she came out and we did it and I ended up getting a lot less eggs than I had hoped for in, you know, sparing your listeners all the details of all that stuff. Like what, or not getting into the minutiae. I had gotten six, which like sounds good, but actually isn't that great for that process. And so I was really disappointed and my mom kind of ever, the cheerleader was like, the day up was like. It's okay. It's better than nothing. Look on the bright side. And I was just like, oh my God, please stop. Like, you know, and I'm sure we're gonna get into this concept of toxic positivity, but I'm just like, can you not, can you just see me for what I am and, and I'm feeling sad and you don't need to fix it. And I would say in many ways that probably was a bit of a catalyst for. We can get into more of the details there, but a bit of a catalyst for heart to heart. But yeah, it was a real inflection point of that has been a challenge for me for sure in our relationship is my mom. And on the one hand, it's amazing 'cause she's so bubbly and awesome and everybody loves her and I love her so much and it's like that is a part that she brings that then can sometimes be really hard for me.

Yeah. It's

like

I just sit in the sadness with me.

Yes, exactly. Brittney.

And I remember that, you know, and I remember that and it was such a wake up call for me because again, I usually go into cheerleader mode and fix it mode and look, you got six, that's great. And then I hear that now and I can't believe I reacted that way, but it was such the way that I always reacted. So kind of following up with that, when I was thinking about what was. Something for me, like to bring up something that wasn't comfortable. So I had gone out to, um, to Denver to be with Tess for the egg retrieval and then, you know, within nine months I had been out there three times 'cause she, for the egg retrieval, she very sadly, a guy that she was seeing died very suddenly and she asked me if I would come with her to the memorial service in Wyoming. Then she had a bike accident and she broke her collarbone. So she asked me, and it's where I wanted to be. So I went out and was with her for those occasions and then like a year passed and I had not gone out there since. And I was feeling like a little sad about that. She didn't ask me to come out just to do something fun. And then I was feeling really needy and I thought, oh, that's not really, I really did not even wanna bring it up. Then, but I was sitting with it and I was just feeling kind of sad about it, and the whole sadness thing is an issue for me too. Right. You don't want to go there. So I brought it up to her and I just said, Tess, I'm feeling uncomfortable bringing this up, but I just wanna share something with you that has been on my mind. And she immediately got it. You know, it's like when you feel seen, you know? Mm-hmm. She immediately got it. We looked on the calendar for a concert at Red Rocks. 'cause I had never been and found James Taylor when we went to that. And then it opened the awareness, just like when she shared with me about the egg retrieval and it opened awareness for me. That opened awareness for her to reach out to me at times. And just so it's all part of this heart to heart, what we bring to these gatherings.

Tes what was that like for you? So your mom had like her response to the egg retrieval and seeing this other side of it for her. What was that for you? When she was nervous or just didn't wanna bring it up to you, but then eventually did?

Hmm. I felt so grateful that she did, because I think in some ways it almost was. A bit of a blind spot of sorts or like, I mostly, so most of my family, you know, I'm in Denver, Colorado. I moved out here five years ago. Most of my family's on the East coast, so I'm just usually the one going east to visit everybody and for holidays and things like that. And so, and I knew my mom had come out a handful of times and then it kind of just so happened that there were these in fairly quick succession, a lot less fun things to come out for and. To me, yeah, it felt like a bit of a blind spot that then after she brought it up, then it just was more top of mind. And so then even for this year, I was the one that was like, Hey, I don't think there's anything at Red Rocks, but they have these amazing concerts at the botanical gardens and would you wanna come out for that? And yeah, it felt really good to then be able to be more proactive to something like in reaction to something that I know that's important to her. And that ultimately is also very important to me in continuing to nurture our relationship.

So having these tougher conversations have actually turned out really good for both of you.

It did, and I think it absolutely impacted how it evolved for us to create this heart to heart gatherings, to provide for other mothers and daughters to take a look at this, you know, and offer again, a safe space as you are offering, you know, a safe space to talk about these things. Well,

I think there's also something about it almost being a bit of a muscle to be flexed, right? That if you don't flex it, then it feels really scary and terrifying. But then once you do, then it gets easier to right. So like my mom and I, I would say, you know, looking from the outside in anybody in my life, any friends of mine would be like, oh my God, you and your mom are so close and like, yes. And ever since, I mean, I think of kind of an inflection point. Of getting closer. Well, two different things. One when I, my college boyfriend broke up with me and I was really sad and I just back, mom, I don't know if you remember this, like cry and I'm not a big crier, Brittney, and I was just like sobbing in her room and she really showed up for me in a really big way. So that was one. And I was like 20 years old then. And then my dad died of brain cancer when I was also right around, it was a little bit after that. So yeah, maybe one was 19, one was 20. And so that also very much brought us quite a bit closer together. So again, from the outside looking in, people would think that we're really, really close and we have been. And there just have been these different challenges over the years. I would say for me, especially as it relates to the, again, what I would consider kind of a bit of toxic positivity. And so then the ache freezing in some ways was kind of like a chipping away at this way of how we always were. And so then it kind of made way for a new way of being. And so that way it isn't as big of a deal to then say, Hey, I really wanna talk to you about something. It's just like how we operate. Yeah.

Let's go more into the toxic positivity. I think that's a great segue

I think the first time that test raised that concept to me, it was definitely new. And I remember I was talking to some friends about it and I said, where did the job description for mother change? You know, because the job description was always, you know, you support your kids and you. Notice what they do. And again, I'm a retired career coach, so my career counseling was always about noticing what people, what they brought to their work and so that they could own it and feel good about it and look for new jobs. But I think as a mom, that is part of our role, you know, to notice what our children do to support them. Sometimes things don't go well, but there was that missing piece I think, for Tess and I on my part. I wasn't leaving room for the sadness, you know? And so it was a real wake up call for me to take a breath, you know, if she was talking about something that was, and, and other things have come up since. And it's an awareness, you know, it's like having that awareness. And I feel like Tess has that awareness towards me too. And it's all about how we have. Shown up for each other more openly than maybe we had before. And it, it's a change in behavior, right? Because again, my role was, you know, a cheerleader and all, and then realizing that's not what she needs in every situation, right? But it's part of being seen

is to see all of the person,

Hmm. Like seeing heard as things come up. So it is a change in our dynamic and it's been really Okay. I hate to word used word positive at the risk of yes,

it has had a positive impact on our relationship for sure. But I think it is, Brittney, what you were saying of like this opening up to the full spectrum of emotion, right? Mm-hmm. And that it isn't just. Like when I was a kid, my favorite movie was Mary Poppins, and I don't know how familiar you are with Mary Pop, or your listeners are with Mary Poppins, but her kind of tagline was practically perfect in every way. And that was kind of the joke, but not really joke of my caption growing up as, oh, Tess is like Mary Poppins, practically perfect in every way. And now I. Whoa, whoa. What a disservice. Right? What a disservice. Like, no, I'm not perfect and nobody can be perfect. And what does that even mean to be perfect and right? Like perfection is an illusion and there just wasn't as much space. You know, I always, I had good friends, I did well in school as my mom did similarly and in very stark contrast to my brother and my dad who had learning disabilities. And so there, yeah, there was always kind of this like. Boys with the boys and girls with the girls. And so yeah, we were, had good friends, did well in school, always kind of really cheery, but then that didn't then leave space for the sadness and the anger and the disappointment and the rage. And I know we're talking about mothers and daughters, but like as a aside, like my dad definitely had a fair amount of anger and he was amazing in many ways and there was a lot of anger there. And in some ways, like there was not room in our family dynamic for other anger besides his.

Yeah, I think that's really true. You know, and 'cause I think this whole Mary Poppins things like we used to always say about Tess, that she was the bright light. And I think about that now that I think as much as we said that, and I was that in my family of origin too, so I mean, we come from some similar experiences that what formed me and then formed me as a mom to her. But that bright light. As lovely as that expression might be. It's also like, well, what if I'm not feeling bright? What if I'm not feeling it? And I think that I did not give Tess kind of that room to be sad. Definitely. You know? Or to be disappointed. So this has been a real wake up call. Yeah. It

takes the pressure

off. Yeah. And again, it's just the awareness. So. That's what we bring to others.

That's a lot of pressure to be practically perfect. There never becomes an end point. I think when we're striving for perfection, we're always striving. When do we get to the end of that? If we're always looking for perfection, it's like it just, you just have to keep going. Keep going, right, keep going.

Mm-hmm. Right. When do you get to just be right? And also no one is perfect and you can't be perfect. So even Mary Poppins. Yes. Back in the day. So there's that a lot of learning. But I think if Tess hadn't talked to me about that, would that happen with the egg freezing? If she had held that inside? And then, and if I didn't know, then I wouldn't have been able to respond in a way that she would've needed me to. Mm-hmm. But I think it was really brave of her to bring it up. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, who I think shows toxic positivity very well, but also you can miss it if you're not really paying attention to it. Have you guys seen the Inside Out movies?

Yeah, and I actually just watched the second one recently with Anxiety. Yeah. Mom, have you seen it? It's, have you seen them? It's a cartoon. I've heard of it, but Very sweet.

I

will watch it now. You should. I assign it as homework to some of my clients. Because it's like, it's really just showing the emotions in a childlike way that makes it easy to digest and take in, and then apply it to your life because you're looking at cartoons and so it just makes it easier. But in the first movie, joy, the happy emotion is running the show, and she's good at it. She's, she's great at keeping ri moving along. But she's trying to keep sadness out. She doesn't want sadness to touch anything. Sadness needs to sit in the back. She needs to not get close to the their like dashboard. And she needs to not touch a memory. Sadness just needs to stay out of the way. Joy has got this, and she'll do it on her own, but once she gets to the end of the movie, joy tells sadness. She's like, I can't be me without you. Oof. And she's like, everywhere I go, you have to go. And sadness and happiness. If we don't feel sadness, we don't actually know what happiness is. Hmm. And if we don't feel sadness, we can't feel empathy for others. And so the two have to show up together.

You know what, that's kind of a segue to what I've often said, and I, I mean other people too, how we learn more from what doesn't go right than what does go right so that something bad happens or negative or with work or whatever. We do learn from it, you know? But when everything's smooth sailing, you just go with the program. So yeah, those moments. Are important.

Yeah.

Well, and I think about having experienced really tough things like we've mentioned, you know, dad dying of cancer, boyfriend dying suddenly, like having those things that were so hard in the moment but have really enabled me to be a tremendously empathetic person. I've had several friends this year that are just going through really hard things of like a friend whose mom. Died of pancreatic cancer, a friend who has breast cancer, and I feel like I can show up for them in a really authentic way because of all these things I've experienced. And in fact, I was just talking to one the other day and I was like, I was telling her, 'cause she was kind of herself trying to kind of Pollyanna it like. At least this didn't happen. At least this. And I was like, you do not need to do that. This fucking sucks. And like that's just it. Yeah. Like it just is. And like I'm just giving you all the permission that you don't need from me, but I'm giving it to you in this conversation to feel that this blows and like period.

And then we go from there. Yeah. Like permission to just let it be what it is and you don't have to find the positive in it.

Yeah.

The two things I've taught my daughter, and I love hearing her say it back in times where I don't expect it, she's four. But she'll tell me, well, this just sucks. I'm like, it does. Yeah, it does suck. And the other one she'll say that I didn't know she picked up on, 'cause this one is more recent that she started saying it. She'll tell me, I really wasn't expecting that. And I'm like, yeah, you expected that to go a different way. And it didn't. It didn't.

Oh yeah. She feels safe with you.

Yes. She

feels safe with you to say that. Really good. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm like, huh, okay. She's allowed to feel and she's letting herself feel, and then she's voicing that, you know, this wasn't a happy moment for me.

Yeah. Oh, it makes me wanna cry. Just like so beautiful, right? For her to grow up in a family where. It's all welcome.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. And you're not trying to push away the sadness in the Joyce. I can't remember what that thing is called either, but yeah. Right. Yeah. Their dashboard, dashboard center. That's

so

helpful. And just let

it be. And so I'm happy that, you know, she just gets to feel it. But she has the words for it too.

Yeah.

Like we don't have to guess anymore. I've said it enough that she's realized when to say it. Yeah. That's so cool.

Yeah. I'm remembering at one point Tess saying to you, there's something going on and, and I just said to you like, I'm not a mind reader. Do you remember that? Mm-hmm. I said, I'm not a mind reader, so it's important to talk about that. And again, and we have Tess, it feels like that was like a long time ago, you know? Mm-hmm. We're good. No, I mean, we're not, I think we're not keeping things, you know, sometimes, you know, you keep things close to the vest. And you're still feeling it and you're sitting with it, and then it's hard. But when you are opening up does make it more authentic for sure. But it makes it more comfortable in the real, yeah, just more easeful kind in a way. Yeah.

The conversations aren't so big, it's just Right a conversation. Right,

exactly.

Yeah. So te used to always use the word, like she said to me, mom, I just would wish our conver, and they are te they're, they're better now. But you know, when I used to make a list of things that, that I just to catch up with, and then she goes, mom, can we just have like an organic conversation? And I think we're there. We're good. Yeah, we're

getting better. I was like, can't we just be, can't you just like ask me how my day was instead of having to check off like 10 things of. And then this and then this and like, yes, I wanna know the things and I wanna know the family happenings, but also like, can't we just just be for a

moment, right? Yeah. Just catch up organically. Yeah, keep learning. Well, tell me about heart to heart and the conversations and the space that you hold for other mothers and daughters.

Hmm. Yeah. I can start and then mom, you can layer on. So the impetus for it was. A couple years ago now, I had a client, uh, my business is all about helping people gather better. So I was helping somebody, a nonprofit here in Denver with their big convening they were having, and I just was doing more of like, we were gonna work together for several months. So I was just doing a get to know you convo and somehow it came up that she and her mom were very, this woman, my kind of liaison, she and her mom were very close. They had always planned to open up an event space together. 'cause the mom was a big gardener, so she was gonna do, have all the floral arrangements. And then her mom died very, very suddenly, I think from cancer. And my mom and I had always talked about doing something together and we had, we're very big fans. We're showing these books, we can show them in the show notes, I'm sure. Summa Kid and, and Kid Taylor. So folks know of Secret Life of Bees. They're a mother-daughter duo that wrote a book called Traveling a Pomegranates and, sorry, now I'm backtracking a little bit, but they'll all come together. So we had both read this book, or I had read it in, I think it was 2000 tens, like 15 years ago. And it's about this mother and daughter that traveled abroad and each had going through tougher things, but they didn't talk about it. But then finally they did. So I shared, I gave the book to my mom and said, consider this research for the mother daughter, memoir. We're gonna write one day. We've always talked about doing something together. And then when this client conversation happened, I think that same day I texted my mom and I was like, mom, we gotta figure this out. Like we got like, now's the time. And so from there we had a couple of combos and we are both facilitators and we're like, what if we brought together mother-daughter pairs? You know, we've experienced this. This experience of vulnerability being this unlock to deepening our relationship. What if we created a workshop and like super informal, like created a workshop for mothers and daughters to come together and share their experiences mm-hmm. In the service to deepening. And so yeah, that was kind of the genesis. We had our first, we've had now two circles and a couple of reconnection circles, and maybe I'll pass it to my mom to share a bit about what happens.

We had this idea to have this gathering, and then we were brainstorming how might it work, and the way that it evolved, we decided that we would kick it off with just having people introduce themselves. And then we talked about it being a combination of journaling and sharing. So we asked them to first. Journal about what is it that you love most about your mother and daughter. So then they would each write about that. And then Tess and I each shared a story about one of like, the challenges in our relationship. So to open that up about, you know, that things are not perfect. They're not perfect. They think about this conversation, but not perfect all the time. So then we asked them to, um, journal about something in their relationship with their mother and daughter that was a little bit more challenging. So then we went into breakouts. I was with the moms and Tess was with the daughters. And we opened up that conversation for the mothers and the daughters to share what they had written. And I know speaking from the mothers, um, at first. The mothers were a little reluctant to share the, oh no, things are great. I love my daughter. And then, you know, as they became more comfortable talking about, 'cause again, nothing is perfect. So sharing that. So then talked about that and then after put each mother daughter pair into their own breakout to share what it was that they had written. And then we asked them to think about. Committing to doing one thing different going forward. So then we brought everyone back into the main group and asked, talked about number one. You know, it's very brave to be talking about that. And we also, this is a shout out to Cam Cameron Walton, who taught Tess and I years ago, from a group that we were involved with. She talked about listen generously and share courageously. Mm-hmm. And so we asked them who would like to share what they wrote and everybody shared. Everyone felt supported and there were two themes. That came out of this. Um, and the themes of boundaries, you know, like maybe not wanting to say something because for fear that it's breaking a boundary. And then the other, which was fascinating, was burden in my mother's group. The mothers were saying like, we don't wanna be a burden to our daughters. So, you know, they didn't tell them things. And then the daughters Tessa's group shared that. The daughters were saying, I know that there's some things going on for my mom, but she doesn't talk about it. 'cause I think she doesn't want to be a burden. So we were ha able to, when we came back together to talk about that, and it's very powerful. And the other thing that we share is that, you know, clear is kind so the more mm-hmm. Clear you are, it's really kind and in service of deepening your relationship. Yeah.

Oh, that theme of being a burden. Hmm.

Yeah. None of

us want it.

No. And the daughters didn't feel like they were being a burden, right? It was more like, yeah, you're putting these arbitrary boundaries to not feel like a burden, but we want like burden us. Right. Like we are here.

Right. But also stop feeling like a burden, because that's in your own head.

Right, exactly. Well, again, I think it goes back to the roles that mothers and daughters play. You know? Yes. Like the mothers, our role is taking care, you know? And. Looking out and supporting and not wanting our children to be worried. My kids will tell you, like, I had a car accident. It was fine, but it was a car accident. I didn't tell my kids for about two weeks. And then my kids were like, mom, you had a car. Why wouldn't you tell us? And I said, well, I just didn't wanna worry you. After they were said, well, I learned a lesson. I learned a lesson on that. But I think that is. That's the kind of thing that happens though. You know, we don't wanna worry our children, these are reminding myself, these are adult children in my world. Right? Right. These are not teenagers. My children are adults. They would wanna know

and they can hold more because they are adults. Right. They're not children that you have to make sure you're protecting from. Mm-hmm. Carrying information that's not theirs. Right. Your adult children can do that for you.

I miss it. You talked about one of your episodes about the what? I think it's six different stages of mother daughter relationship. Right. And it's probably one of the latter ones where Yes, the daughter is an adult. Is an adult. Yep.

So that young adult stage, when the daughter first enters adulthood, I say last from like 18 to like 25, 26. That is where mom is holding her hand. You guys are walking alongside of each other, holding hands. But then that 26 to whatever age, but that next stage of daughter really becoming her own adult, her own person, maybe getting married, maybe having children, but she's really her own person. You guys, this is where a friendship actually blossom and you're walking alongside each other, but the handholding isn't necessary like.

It's not

necessarily a guide anymore. It's like a friend, a confidant, a, I'm still coming to you when I need you, so you're right. You're here. Mm-hmm. You're adjacent to me. You are available, but you're not the one calling the shots anymore. And I think sometimes that stage gets really confusing for moms. Because they don't feel needed anymore. It's like, no, I still need you and you need me. It just looks different.

And it's also the boundaries, you know? Right. Like just being aware of, and that's why, uh, Tess had shared this article The times with me, it was like asking the question, do you wanna be helped? Heard or held. So I test held, heard or hugged or hugged rather. Right? Well, yeah, hugged. And so I said to Tess, well if something comes up for you, 'cause we're not living near each other, you know, I can't hug you. But in terms of if she's talking about, and for the most part when things come up, it's just to listen, just to be heard. But you're right, the roles change. The roles do change.

And Tess has also told you the times where she did need a hug. She asked you to come to her.

Yeah. Yeah. That was the

hug portion of that.

I need

you here.

Yeah. I'm always grateful and grateful that I can, you know, like grateful that she's comfortable asking. But this is also, we talk about asking for what you need. That's also a really big challenge, I think for a lot of us. Like we hesitate to ask for what we need at times. Yeah.

But I think there's also something in this conversation around Brittney, when you talk about this 26 and above, it's like then also it really goes more so both ways, right? Like, yeah, I can ask my mom for what I need, but also I fully expect her to ask for what she needs. Yes. And like that I could go back to New York if she needs me for some Yes. Something, right? Mm-hmm. If there was like a surgery, you know, hopefully not, but like if there was like, that would be my expectation is that I would show up for her just as I would expect her to show up for me. Right. And that is the shift, probably even starting at that 18 range, right? That like you can then, like as the daughter, you can show up for your mom in bigger ways than you could when you were a teenager.

Absolutely. I just think that first that young adult phase is still very delicate.

Yeah.

Because we say 18 and you're an adult now, and who felt like an adult at 18? Yeah. No, we just got to make decisions without needing to check in with our parents anymore, but Right. There is still a huge learning phase in that. So if we even think about like just going with the ages and knowing how we can support our moms and our moms can support us once we reach a certain threshold, and those numbers are arbitrary. I think 25, 26 is arbitrary, but if we look at, you know, 18 to 26. I liken it to adolescent of a teen. Mm-hmm. So you're just in the baby adolescent phase of adulthood, and so you're still learning what it's like to be an adult and make decisions and accept the consequences and knowing the right things to do. And we still look to our moms so much in that time. That's why I say it's now like holding hands. Because before the mom's in front and she's the guide, and it's like, okay, come on little baby duck. I got this. I'm gonna show you and this is what I'm teaching you. And then 18, it's next to, and so that hand is like, okay, I'm still here, but I'm not the one in front anymore. I'm kind of letting you lead, but my hand is right here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm right here with you. And then I think the hands can let go because now it's who's calling into each other.

Hmm.

And yeah. And so boundaries do come into play. And sometimes I think where moms and daughters go wrong with boundaries is they make them too rigid. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I think boundaries should be fluid. They should be allowed to flow and change and adjust to situations, and adjust to people. When they're so rigid, we're basically keeping people out and they don't know what to do anymore because we've put up this fortress of a boundary when we could have more of a fluid boundary and then people can know more about what to do in that moment. Yeah,

I've been really into the idea of taking inspiration from, well, nature in general, but water in particular has been coming up a lot, and so yeah, I love that. How can it be more flowing? How do we meet things as they shift and evolve and. Yeah. Like that's the work that's interesting to me versus just like a cut and drop. Mm-hmm. This is, yeah, I set my

boundary. Now we're, this is what we're gonna do forever. That's not realistic.

I'm also thinking that change isn't always easy, so, and this, this is a change, you know, or like it's an evolution of the relationship and a really positive evolution. But it does call on, well, definitely more awareness and different behaviors at times. And, you know, all in the service of being more open and sharing and, and, but also, you know, giving space for like, we always want our children to grow. You know, we want our children to feel good about their own decisions and how they move forward in life. And that's really, that's really important, but it's a change.

Yeah. And sometimes navigating those changes. They can be scary, especially when you're not sure where you fit in. Hmm. And so knowing that, you know, the mother-daughter relationship, I believe has the most changes of any relationship, and maybe we can say parent, but I focus on mother daughters. So it's the only relationship we have that has to adjust in so many different aspects and in so many different stages of life. And so knowing when you're in a new stage and where you fit in can be hard and kind of scary.

Mm-hmm. When it's

like, okay, do I step back? Do I lean in more? Do I say something? Or do I let her figure out on her own? Do, what am I supposed to say here? Is she gonna be mad at me if I say anything? Like, some moms get so scared and then some moms. Just, you know, never see their daughter as adults and they just want to just keep going as if their daughter's a child. And the flip side of that is even frustrating too.

It's so tough. It's so tough. Yeah. It's like, I, so Well, and I can imagine, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I think most of your listeners are more like they've younger kids probably. Oh, it,

there's, there's a big range.

Cool. Because I was just thinking of like, you know, I just heard 40, so I have a ton of friends with kids. Your daughter's age, Britney, right? Like zero to four or five. Like that's just a massive shift. Yes. Right? Yes. Of how do you navigate? And so even though I don't yet have kiddos, I do think this is really relevant for your listeners that are in their 30, you know, thir. Mm-hmm. Whenever they start having kids of like. Even more important, right? To have those boundaries and have these open conversations. I think the thing that we've heard a lot from, we've had quite a few heart to heart participants, where the daughter in the mother-daughter who are attending mm-hmm. They then have kids themselves and they said, one of them actually the commitment they made, 'cause they also, a lot of people that have joined have been people in Denver and there's a lot of people here that are not from here. So you know people that have their family out on the East coast or on the West Coast. And so one of their commitments was. You know, at the end of the time they make a commitment. One of them was to make sure that, I can't remember the cadence, but maybe it was like at least once a month, that when they talk, the kids aren't there. Because obviously that's just a wildly as you know as well. Right? 'cause you and your mom don't live in the same place. Like it's a wildly different conversation when your daughter is there. It's so sweet. And tender, and I'm sure your mom always wants to talk to her grand baby, right?

Yes. But then it's

how do you make space for nurturing your relationship apart from being the grandma? And so it's just so tender, like all these shifts in dynamics. And then I think. Not on the flip side, but just like as our moms get older. Mm-hmm. And that then health issues that happen. And I know there was somebody in heart to heart where the mom was having a big, I don't even know what it is, right? 'cause like from confidentiality, like my mom didn't share, but like the mom was having a really big health issue that she wasn't telling her daughter, her very, very adult daughter.

Right?

Because again, she didn't wanna be a burden and it's like, whoa. Again, I think this letting each person show up for the other person in the way that feels supportive to them feels, I mean, I feel like I'm even kind of discovering that in this conversation right now of like, yeah, mom, I want you to show up for me, but I also wanna show up for you. And like, but you need to tell me how, I mean, I can hypothesize and I can

do whatever I'm trying, but it not letting it is about right. It is about letting people in, you know, and being kind. And that's also that there's so much vulnerability in these conversations because. That's all part of it. So it's like letting your daughter in, I mean, the daughter's in the same way. That's also part of it. It's like, it feels risky in some ways to be open about, you know, what's going on. Especially the, the mom that was talking about the health issue, you know, that she. She really did not wanna burden her daughter with it. So then realizing that daughter would wanna know, but it felt very risky for her to even bring that up with her daughter, which she did. And you know, obviously felt very supported. But it's a change. You know. It's a change because the daughters are not in that role of taking care of the moms. It's the moms taking care of the daughters. So,

yeah. And then once you get to the. The very last stage of the mother-daughter relationship where it flips and daughter is now caregiver. That can be hard for mom to have to accept. My own mom told me, I'm not gonna burden your family. Bri just put me in a home lady. I'm not putting you in a home. But that was her not wanting to be a burden. And she told me that years ago before I even had a family. I don't wanna burden your family when you get older. Just put me in a home. Tess and I've had those conversations too.

You know, again, may we never, may you never have to worry about it. May Tess never have to worry about it. May we just continue to live our lives, as I always say, with marbles and mobility. So may we? Yes. To be healthy and independent and share all kinds of experiences. In a good way.

Yeah. And knowing that, you know, most daughters want to be there and support their moms, and most moms want their daughters to be a part of their support system. And so we both just have to let that happen and have those conversations to bring that up.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why we created this space, you know, to give mothers and daughters the opportunity to be. Looking at themselves, looking at their daughters, mothers and daughters and, um, and talking openly maybe in ways that they hadn't before. 'cause we all come from where we come from, you know, like I come from my mother and then I, then I mother, then, you know, right. Tests and we all have talked about those wounds, you know, and we all have them. Mm-hmm.

And I think you guys are helping people to not feel so alone. Mm,

which

is part of, you know, what my podcast, why I created it to help others not feel alone. I remember when I first started doing this work and actually showing up online, spoke with somebody who was a mother. I think she was maybe in her fifties, so we didn't talk about her being a daughter. We just talked about her being a mother. She said, 'cause I was trying to decide on like doing webinars or doing like kind of open workshops and things, almost like heart to heart. And she said that she would never show up to that because she would not want any of her friends or anybody in her circle to know that she struggled on her relationship with her daughter. And I think a lot of moms hide and a conversation is never had with her daughter. And so if the mom is juggling, so is the daughter. But if we're scared to have those conversations and be honest and know that we're not the only ones going through this, the relationship never has a chance to get better. Mm.

I was just gonna say, secrets are

never a good thing.

Well, and I was just gonna say, I mean, I would say it's my deepest hope that anybody that listens to this podcast that like, let this be that kind of breaking the ice. Yeah. Of like whether it's the mom or the daughter in that dynamic, right? Let this be something that like, that would be my biggest hope is that somebody who's been struggling with their mom or with their daughter that they send this podcast, they're like, Hey, listen to this. And I thought of, you would love to have a conversation, right? Because I do think that just creating that space, like people have had conversations and heart to heart that they never had in their entire lives. Scared and we just created, they're scared. Created a container,

right? Yes. And then because other people were there, they didn't feel like they're the only ones. And so what's wrong with them?

Yeah. So to say it explicitly, this is your permission invitation to anybody listening to reach out and share this and just have a conversation that you haven't had before. And maybe starting with the what's something you love about your relationship? Something you really appreciate and I just wanna share that I'm a really, I'm sure you talk about this a lot as a therapist, Brittney, the like intent versus impact, right? Like when you did this, I know your intention was right when my mom said that was trying to make me feel, I know what the egg freezing, she was just trying to make me feel better, the impact. So that was her intention, but the impact was. It made me feel really not seen. And so just having that language, I'm a really big fan of, I'm looking over to the side for my book of it, nonviolent Communication, and he uses this framework of when X happens, this is how it made me feel. This is what I'm requesting of you for next time. Right? So it doesn't have to be that complicated. It can be that simple, you know, simple in quotation. I know it's not simple at all. But it can just be so powerful to say what you need.

Right. Lemme also add, again, these are like mothers and daughters with the women that we have worked with, our mothers and daughters, they have good relationships. You know, these are not like troubled relationships. So they have good relationships, but they feel like there's just a way to deepen it. And perhaps, again, some things that they haven't. Said so for anyone listening too, it is, it is brave. You know, it's brave. Mm-hmm. To be open about what you're really feeling. And I would hope that they would trust that their mother and daughter would really wanna know that we'd want to hear, but it, it is risking some vulnerability. But we have been seeing is that. The mothers and daughters truly appreciate being seen in heard and to be open about what's really undermines if they haven't shared it before. Yeah.

Well, as we kind of round this out, this has been really good. Thank you guys. Tess, I wanna know if there's anything that you would say or leave with an adult daughter listening to this. And then Holly, the same for you, but with mothers of adult daughters. Is there anything that you would want to tell them or leave them with if they're listening to this?

Yeah, I think it is. Just have the conversation, reach out, say the thing, say the things that's been on your mind. I would like to think if you have a close enough relationship or a close enough foundation that your mom will be open to you bringing up something that feels scary and feels. Challenging.

Yeah. And I would say to the moms, you know, maybe just take a beat. You know, like take a little bit of time to think about what is it. Is there something that you haven't talked to your daughter about or something that's been on your mind that you've wanted to talk to your daughter about? If you're not sure how to present it? I'm a really big believer in journaling. You know, just scripting it out a little bit. Sometimes when you write what it is that's on your mind, you know, that's helpful. And then trust your daughter, you have a good relationship. Trust that your daughter will appreciate your openness and honesty. And then you're also, you know, as moms, we try to be role models to our children, to our daughters and our adult daughters and our sons too. But it is another way of role modeling. How to be in a relationship that matters. That's important. And one of the ways that it strengthened is being open and sharing something that's on your mind, and then being willing to have the conversation. And I would say, speaking for myself, one of the biggest lessons is to listen. You know, not to just jump in with a response, but maybe share something, but then

to listen. Yeah. And I just wanna add, if the relationship with your mom or daughter is not in a good place and it is hard, or you're not talking, breaking the ice if this is something that you want is the hardest part. Mm-hmm. And if you're a mom listening to this, your job really is to listen. And if you're a daughter listening to this, your job is to be as honest about your experience as you can. I think part of where these conversations. Go wrong and they turn into a disaster is when we're pointing the finger versus just sharing our emotions and where it hurts. So how Tes said, impact versus intent. If all we're focusing on is the intent and you believe your mom had bad intentions, then she never gets to really hear the impact.

I think especially when you say, I feel, you know, I feel less heard, or I feel uncomfortable when. Yeah. Just the way of percepting it, which I'm sure is what you teach all the time.

Yes. And then you just have to sit in it. Like these conversations can be very difficult. It can be hard to hear your daughter say, mom, you hurt me. Hmm. And not wanting to jump in and say, well no I didn't, 'cause I didn't mean to what, just sit there. She said you hurt her. You know? That part of just listening and sitting I think can be the hardest. Hmm. Well thank you guys so much.

Brittney, we really appreciate this opportunity and just so you know, again, we've been listening to your podcasts and you continue to teach us so much and spark other thoughts. So thank you for what you're doing and you're changing the world for mothers and daughters.

Yes, and thank you guys for doing heart to heart. You guys are doing the same thing. We all just need to know we're not alone and that the changes of this relationship is hard sometimes.

Yeah. And possible.

Yes, you can get through this.

That's all for today's episode of the Mother-Daughter Relationship Show. Thanks so much for spending this time with me. I hope you picked up some valuable insights that you can start using right away in your own relationship to create deeper connection and understanding. If something from today's episode resonated with you, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with the mother or daughter in your life who needs to hear this message. And while you're at it, please consider leaving a rating. And review so we can reach more families and transform the way mothers and daughters relate to each other. For those ready to take the next step, you can visit my website to learn more about my private coaching programs and my program designed specifically for mother-daughter pairs. Whether you're dealing with communication challenges, life transitions, or just wanna strengthen an already good relationship, I'm here to help. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you in the next one.