Des, welcome to the podcast. Can you introduce yourself, please?

Yeah, so, hi. Thanks very much. So, I'm Des Payne. I'm the safety manager for the British Hore Society. And really our, our role is to support our riders, and non-members to find relevant information to help them and their four-legged friends to get to where they want to be safely.

Lovely. Oh, thanks Des. And it's just to explain to people if it feels a bit clunky, it's 'cause we've sort of done this episode a bit backwards where we've talked about it and we had a conversation. We had a conversation before then getting Des to introduce himself because obviously everything that we've. Sort of said is come together in a really useful, helpful way,

and we pressed record

and we press record, which is brilliant. So glad we did that. So Des, your idea was to talk about towing, towing. Horses, but also expanding that out and the nerves and anxiety that that might bring. Tell us a bit more.

So obviously the, transporting that horse element is, how can I put it? It, it's people's mind thought is that. They're traveling their loved one. That's a real strong bond that is not in their child's seat behind them. In the, um, comfort of that one vehicle. Especially when obviously when you towing, you are in another connective, um, part of the, part of the vehicle's trailer and. That has so many risks to it. Now, the people I, I talk to is, it's not necessarily about their safety checks. The anxious people are really safety conscious. they go overboard on, on all their checks. They're well prepared, they're planned. What I would like to really gain is what advice could we give them for, what's outta their control, the other people on the road. And I think that's the important piece, is to try and calm their anxieties down, in when they're transporting their loved ones.

So that bit that you said there about anxious people, their safety checks are absolutely fine. That follows through with other things that we hear and that we've spoken about, isn't it? So that shows up in the research that very often somebody who's experiencing anxiety as a driver, and of course in this case, it's not so much about the driver as the towing, that it does often mean that they're vigilance. What they're looking out for, their sort of, their awareness, I suppose is spot on. It's not that they're careless, it's the, exact opposite. So, yeah. The safety piece is there. I suppose I've never really thought about the fact that it is different to having a child in a car seat on the backseat behind you, because actually in this case, your loved one is in a separate vehicle, a separate part. I can't think the right word.

It's not part of what you are in.

They're not in your vehicle.

I mean, I used to do a lot of, I used to drive lorries with trailers and you know, that's, but it was just a cargo, it was never the cargo of importance.

Yeah. You

know, and I think people don't realize sometimes. What it's actually like to actually drive just a trailer. I mean, some horse boxes are quite, they're quite thin and small compared to sort of like someone delivering for Tescos, you know, they're, they're gonna be, is very different sizes. And those trailers do move, don't they? The smaller ones do move quite a lot and I, I think potentially it's that the other people on the roads don't realize that for starters, you know, that's part of the problem I feel. Um, but also for the people driving those vehicles, I would've suggested most people have training to do that, I would've said. Is that, is that true Des Uh, well.

The trailer license was actually re revoked a few years ago Now, there's not been a real evidence to say that the leisure drivers have taken up training. we at the British Haw Society absolutely want to support our, our community by informing 'em that, you know, go and seek professional, um, driver training. But there, there is no law obviously requirement anymore to, to do that. so I am sure again, the anxious person will go and seek that to get the best possible sort of, you know, outcome when they are towing their horses. but It's a real, is it a skill fade if you are not doing it often? So that's where I would like to, really sort of, speak to our equine community is if you are that anxious driver is to go out in the trailer without the horse in, as much as you can. and then do smaller trips with your horses perhaps. So you're not necessarily going to that show at the weekend. You're not going to that leisure ride that is probably 10 miles away or 15 miles away. You are just driving two or three miles. Picking up each time that type of confidence. and therefore your horse is getting used to being transport more regular. And also then you are feeling perhaps, potentially a little bit more confident in your abilities and what others are doing out on the road.

I was gonna ask a couple of things. Is it because. it's an experience thing. So they, they might do it once in a while because they have stables and the horse is at the stables and they visit the horse at the stables. So they don't really do it that often. And when it comes to it. It's like, okay, I've gotta be really careful here. Do they, do they change the way they drive because of the cargo they've got? Or do they change because of They're not used to doing it? Or is it a mix of both? Could, could be a mix of both.

You know, the person who, was very upfront in speaking to myself, she wants to drive more frequently, but it's her anxiety that's getting in the way. So she, does around three to five, Days driving a month, which actually compared to some that's, that's a lot more than others would do. and each time, and she's been driving now for, um, a number of years, she still feels anxious.

Yeah. So there's a, so I mean, the great thing with that individual is that they're not avoiding, because one of the things that we know is that. If your brain sends you a signal to say, well, don't wanna do that, and you find a way of avoiding doing something that you are anxious about, then what that does is that strengthens the urge and the messages from your brain to keep avoiding it. so it's great that she's not avoiding it because avoidance breeds more avoidance. So for anybody who is avoiding doing something who, who is avoiding towing their horse, then the likelihood is, is that avoidance is just gonna become more and more, more. I think what's interesting about that person is generally what happens is. We do something. So that idea of doing those very small practice runs is, is spot on. That's exactly right. Because obviously when something's a new skill, we do it as a novice. Um. Our brain doesn't know how to do it, or it might know the theory of it, but it hasn't had the experience of doing it yet. So our brain has the experience of doing it and it makes a connection. It's sort of like, this happens, this happens, this happens. The more we repeat it, the more familiar. Those connections, those pathways in our brain become. And so our brain tends to start to settle down with repetition because the more we repeat it, the more we do it, the more experience we gain, the stronger those neural pathways become. And if everything's gone well, then normally that. Sort of turns into a level of experience and confidence. So it's interesting that that's not happening for that particular individual. 'cause I agree three to five times is, is not avoidance.

But actually what has been said was that because she has to make those trips, so actually by having to do those trips, that's making a, not a void. But

yes.

doesn't go out and continue that in between those, those areas. So there could be an element to what you've, what you've said.

Yeah, definitely. So if she's avoiding it when she doesn't have to do it and is only doing it when she absolutely has to. So my next question then would be, it would be interesting to know what are the thoughts that she's saying to herself while doing that drive because. I am guessing if she's only doing it almost under protest because she has to, it's like, I've got no choice. I've got to do this. So the running commentary in her head could be going something along the lines of, I hate this. I don't like this. Oh God, there's another car. Oh, I, you know, have I, have I gone too fast? Do I need to break? You know, and sort of like this, sort of like doubting, second guessing uncertainty. Helpful thoughts. So if her experience of three to five times a month is actually filled with those thoughts, negative thoughts, and we know again from the research that actually the biggest cause of drive any sort of driving anxiety is negative thoughts going round and round in the head. The what ifs? The, I'm useless. I can't do this. Oh God, I hate this. Those sorts of thoughts. Thoughts. Cause massive anxiety. So when you are looking at those connections and those neural pathways, if actually she's doing that sort of driving with those sorts of thoughts, three to five times a month, she could be becoming more anxious and hating it more and more and more because of the things in her head rather than focusing on the positives of the drive. I'm thinking when we were talking to Adam, he talked about this virtual reality, didn't he? He said that with anxious drivers, it's almost like they, there's this virtual reality, this parallel universe. So there's the fact that actually this lady who's been talking to you, she is successfully towing her horse from one place. To another three to five times a month. So the, the actual reality is that she's towing successfully, safely. Everyone's arriving where they should. Fit state. So that's the actual reality. But her parallel universe is what's going on in her head where she, if she was to replay those journeys, it would be full of difficulty, negativity, what ifs. Nee. And so it's almost like these completely two different realities, one alongside the other. And I, I think that could be what's happening with the person you are talking about.

No, that's, I'm sure that's absolutely, um, you know, really helpful to, to hear. I would say a general sort of concern when I, when I've been going up and down the country talking to people, is actually being stuck in traffic with the horses and, and, and also the extreme weather conditions at the same time. So whether you're on a highways and the motorway breakdown, not they've broken down, but there's a breakdown ahead of them that's closed the road or reduction in, in speed, or even stopping for a period of time where then the horse gets then a little bit agitated. You can feel then as you mentioned earlier, the trailer type into to sway because it's like the children in the backseat, if I refer to that, are we there yet? Are we there yet? And you know, after that, that moment where the horse does get a little bit gie, that can be, you know, quite intimidating because you know, you've got that sway, sway of the box. and there's, there's nothing really. I believe that anything can be done if you are stuck on a, on a major network, apart from you could call the highways department and actually say and use your, what, three words as, as a map. Say, I am stuck in this three square meter, you know, uh, route. I'm aware there's an incident up above. I just want to inform you that there's. A horse and he's getting a little bit agitated. is is there anything you can do perhaps, because obviously we all know you cannot use the hard shoulder just to get off on the next slip road without a police escort or, um, a highways agents.

Well, and that goes probably back to smart motorways where there's not a hard shoulder even to do that. And that might well cause that, anxiety to really go, high because people will probably feel stuck or stranded. And then what do I do? How do I get out of this? You know? So again, it's all of those thoughts about something that's not actually happened yet, but the thoughts of what might happen. And I think that is something that we deal a lot with, with drivers where, you know, it's the thoughts of what might happen. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's just a thought of what, well, if this happens, what did I do?

I think one of the things that I'm thinking there is. That is a normal, natural situation that would be a bit anxiety provoking and I think to imagine, to assume or hope that, oh, can I get rid of this anxiety so that I'm not worried if that happens. Actually, I think there is a reason. I think it would be a sort of, well, no, in that case, I think most people, even the most. Experienced person towing horses would be surely be going, oh God, what am I gonna do now? Uh, you know the horse, you, you know, each person knows their horse, don't they? They know their horse's personality. They know whether their horse is gonna be chilled out about this. Or not. so I would imagine it, it, you would expect for anybody to have a bit of a spike there. A bit of a, oh, no moment. It's just maybe to the what extent. So I think there is a thing about accepting it. Obviously having a plan. If you have a plan, if you are like, okay, what can I do in that situation? Well, I could do what you just said. That advice of, you know, finding out, letting the highways agency know, sharing you what three words to see if there is anything can be done. I guess your preparation before your trip to, make sure that what you've got. In your horsebox covers for a longer than expected journey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just, I mean, the, the, the phrase that came to to mine is, you know, I always look for a solution. That's literally what I do. I try and think of a solution. And it's having these solutions probably in a card format. You know when people buy a Horsebox trailer for the first time or they go for training and it is having that card form say, look, if this happens, what could I do? I could do the highways Agency Z by Magic.

Okay, Des tell people what you just showed us.

So, we at the, again, at the British Horse Society on the transportation page of our website, we have, a little travel guide that's actually got a horse on the front and says. Are you sure it's safe for me to Dr. Uh, to travel? So the, all the preparations beforehand, there's also some useful, um, hints and tips, yes, it's mainly for, uh, for trailer towing, but you can put it change it for. Your Horsebox. And on the other side it's a little bit more about breakdowns, drive, planning, weather conditions, who there's some useful telephone numbers, what we haven't put on there. It is just these, um, other things that you might not think of. So. If you have broken down, for example, and your phone is fully charged by the time you've left home, have you got a phone charger that you can keep topping up the battery in case you're out there for a little bit longer, so you've, you can keep your comms, have you got your vet's telephone number to hand if you are fairly local in, in a sticky situation? And your, if you plan for, if you plan for the worst, potentially this isn't on the car, but if you do plan for the worst, and actually you're so much better prepared, you can actually just take it in your stride, go through your list. And, uh, you, you've managed to actually reduce your anxiety is the way, I look, at things, but yeah, you can request it from our website and we can post these out, um, you know, to a, to anyone. and it's a, yeah, just a handy guide.

See,

there you go. Yeah,

there you go. You are in card format and here's one like Blue Peter, but but you, you're dead. Right? It is that thing of if you have a plan, if you know what to do, just that in itself can reduce the anxiety. It's that not having a clue. It's when something happens and you instantly go, what do I do? Just that phrase gives you anxiety. At any point when you, you don't know what to do, you're gonna feel anxious. It's a normal, natural thing. So yeah, the, better prepared you are. It doesn't mean that the situation won't be anxiety making when it happens, but at least you'll feel more in control. And it comes back to that thing of what can you control and what can't you control?

Yeah, and I think. Again, other conversations that we've, we've had with people is going back to the other drivers out there where they see a slow horse box going around the slow rural roads around the corners or slowing up in plenty of time to go to the roundabout. And then you've got all the cars that are trying to cut in. And then causing, you know, more braking, which then obviously unsettles unsell the horses. So it's not the case where, our drivers, when they're pulling horse boxes, is trying to, make everyone tail back for two or three miles. It's the case where they are looking for those bends to keep the horse, in a comfortable and stable position. And if you really think about it, A loose partition tied to a piece of string so they're not strapped down. All four limbs can move. Uh, and they find their own balance, and the horse finds its balance by being able to stretch its neck and head and put his feet in each four corners. and then once that disrupts by either heavy braking or corners going in too fast, that's when you know things might happen. So it's. Being mindful of the drivers behind that, you know, don't tailgates and don't squeeze into any large, you know, any HCV driver, you, you know, if you've got a heavy cargo, it takes that longer distance to stop anyway. But with a horse you could still, you know, really unsettle it and actually make it fall over. So that's the point really.

I think it's when in those situations where sometimes for myself, when I was driving the lorries, and this would be the same for probably your people that are towing horses in the horse box is you always feel that you're doing something wrong. Because you'd not fitting in with the norm, you know you are doing something different because of what you are doing. So you've just mentioned you don't go the normal speed as if you were in a car up to a roundabout. Now there's a reason behind that and sometimes what you have to do, I feel, is just be kind to yourself and just remember, or remind yourself the reason you are doing that. This is the reason I'm doing this. So rather than have that, thought process of I'm doing something wrong, everyone's thinks I'm slow, everyone's gonna be jumping in front of me. It's just as soon as you notice you are saying those thoughts, it's coming back to the, the reason I'm doing this is 'cause of this. I'm okay. I'm doing this because of this. That out loud, even saying it out loud to yourself. 'cause sometimes you might be doing this on your own, it makes you feel better because it's almost like someone else has told you it's okay to do what you're doing. and that can be quite powerful in itself is, is just having that voice say. It's okay. I'm not doing anything wrong. Those cars aren't towing a horse box. I'm doing this because of this and if I do this, I'm gonna be okay. We are gonna get there. We can then go for that ride, or whatever it may be. So I think just sometimes being, being kind to yourself can have a a really. Positive effect on what's happening.

Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna add in there that actually when talking, I mean, Kevin's exactly right, that talking out loud to yourself is really helpful because it is not just an inner monologue. when you say something out loud, then your brain hears it. So that does add a different element in terms of managing anxiety. But then, as weird as it sounds, if you can add in. Talking to yourself and using your name. So it's a bit like talking to yourself and the third person, which I know is really odd, but being like, okay, Tracy, you're doing exactly what you need to do. And so when you use your name to yourself, your brain hears that as well. So it's slightly odd, but there is some research behind it. Mm-hmm. Helping to calm people down. And then the other thing I'm thinking of is. Social concerns, worrying what other people think. Mm-hmm. Um, about your driving is often a problem, but in this case, actually the person who's towing they. Like Kev says that they're the outlier. They're the person who is doing something more advanced and they're the person who actually has more knowledge. So the reason that some of the other car drivers might be doing stupid things is actually because that driver doesn't have. The knowledge or the understanding that the person who is towing does have. So there's something in there about reminding yourself that actually you know what you're doing is correct, and that's because you have that deeper advanced knowledge of what needs to be done. Whereas unfortunately, that poor driver who's doing these stupid things. Has a lack of knowledge. So it is, it is a bit like instead of feeling like the person who's doing things wrong, you are actually taking the higher ground because you are more of an expert than these drivers

in doing what they're doing.

Yeah. That's a really good way of, uh, of looking at, I've not, I, I've definitely not thought of that myself, so, uh, so yeah, I've taken that one on board. Yeah.

It can sound really weird as well when you, the first time or second time you start to do it. It's like it's, it's like you've got someone in your head talking to you, which is like a weird feeling, but all of a sudden you've got a reason to do what you're doing and it's not so bad. Yeah. And then it's like,

oh yeah. And that words of encouragement and support with your name, even when it's coming from yourself, can just make a really big difference. And it means that inside your head, you haven't got any time or any space to do the, I hate this. I hate this. Oh my God. Because actually what you're doing is you're going, right, come on, Tracy. You know, They dunno what they're doing, but you know, I'm more experienced. I know what I'm doing. I'm doing this for a reason. It's not their fault. They don't know. and that sort of, that those words of encouragement to yourself means you can't in your head be going, I hate this. I hate this.

Then once they've done it, especially round roundabouts are always the, the thing for me is where they've done the roundabout or done the hazard or whatever it may be. Say, well done to yourself for doing it.

Yes.

And just say, well done, Tracy. You did well there.

Yeah.

You kept everybody safe. I kept me safe and my horse is safe as well, so well done. Me.

Yeah. And what's next? And just sort of like, focus in and, and so then I'm thinking about. Jack who came on. So we had a racing driver come on doing a podcast episode and he's talking about his races and what he said, and it does relate and Jack will be going, oh God, stop making these links. 'cause he is, I'm racing, drivers stop making links to everything else. But what Jack says is, and he coaches people to race cars as well, and he said. If I had time to think, if I was thinking I wouldn't be winning my races. So I look at what I've got to do at this bend. I do what I need to do, and then if I'm on a straight, I don't then start thinking about what I'm having for dinner. I think about what's next and what's next and what's next. So it's keeping that focus and attention on, well done. Did that roundabout. Lovely. What's coming up next? What position do I need to be in? What speed do I need to do? How do I control the traffic around me By signaling my actions and taking action early? And if you stick into the what's next, focus on what's next, not go, oh, thank God I'm on a straight bit of road. Right? and say, oh, that was a near miss back then. That could have gone horribly wrong. It's just like, what next? What's the next bit that I need to focus on? so again, keeping that focus and attention on the whole of the journey, and you can reflect on this. when you've arrived at your destination safely, but while you're driving, focus on the job in hand.

Excellent. Excellent. I I've got nothing else to say. That's, I mean, they were really the sort of things that have come up on a, a frequent sort of basis stuck in traffic, hot weather and you know, that anxiety about just, you know, what, what we just talked about, the slower driving, the roundabouts, et cetera. I'm sure the viewers will really appreciate that advice. Yeah,

Des how can our listeners find out information about the British Horse Society and in particular, that bit about transportation?

Yeah, so we have a website, uh, and it's www.bhs.org uk. and then from there you can either do the search bar on transport, and checks before you travel. There's lots of information. Um, but also advise to when they ride out on the roads or if they want to record any incidents that they've been in. Um, then, uh, then again, our dead slow campaign. They can find out more information about that.

Lovely. And I'll just add in that we've also got an episode that we did last year, I think, about the dead slow campaign. So that was with Alan. So yeah, so we've got some information on that as well. Yeah. Lovely. Thank you very much. Perfect.

Thank you.