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[sloane]: And welcome to the free moneyy podcast. Um, it's where we start the podcast. Kind of

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[sloane]: by surprise a little bit earlier than actually. thought.

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[ash_b]: Yes, yes,

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[sloane]: Uh,

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[ash_b]: we screwed it all up, but we're got we do it. live here,

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[sloane]: we do it life, we do it. life. And yeah, as I was just telling Ashby I'm just back

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[sloane]: from my family reunion in Salt Lake City, where I definitely picked up Uh, something

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[sloane]: along the lines of a cold or coved. Um, so

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[ash_b]: fingers cross, We didn't break through Cause

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[sloane]: yep,

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[ash_b]: you, you provx. so I know that. Yeah, Me too.

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[sloane]: I'm provx, Yeah, Yeah, exactly, get the facts about the facts.

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[sloane]: Um,

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[ash_b]: I'm sorry to hear you feeling down, but I have to say look great. You let

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[sloane]: thank you.

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[ash_b]: your butter like bubbly. you know.

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[sloane]: Well, I, I mean, it's There's nothing like hanging out like I have the most adorable

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[sloane]: Mormon family in the history of the world. I mean,

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[ash_b]: Hm.

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[sloane]: like my. my grandparents are like Um, actual icons. Um.

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: the Re. the reason we were out there was for a Gaa event to commemorate my Uh,

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[sloane]: grandfather's ninetieth birthday, and to raise a Um. an endowment to fund arts

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[sloane]: programs.

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[ash_b]: my gosh.

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[sloane]: Um, it' ro, and like it unbelievably cool they've been. They set up this thing

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[sloane]: called the Latter Day Saint Arts center,

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[ash_b]: Hm.

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[sloane]: Um. That is like really helping people remagine what it means to be Mormon. Um. they

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[sloane]: wanted to create space for people like me who are not you know, religiously Mormon.

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[sloane]: Uh, to be

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[ash_b]: yeah.

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[sloane]: like affiliated with it in the same way. So many people are culturally Jewish, Uh,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, I was going to say I know a lot of Jewish people that are atheists but are

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[ash_b]: still Jewish.

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[sloane]: exactly exactly. Yeah, And and like you know, you can't really opt out of the

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[sloane]: Mormonism it's pretty inbred at this point. Uh,

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[sloane]: um,

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[sloane]: but yeah,

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[ash_b]: So you were in Salt Lake.

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[sloane]: you know, uh over. I was over in Salttics, I got my uh, s. ▁l u T shirt, um,

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: slut, uh,

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[ash_b]: you didn't. I don't think you needed to spell out of the. Yeah, no, I think

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[sloane]: yeah, the guy, uh, I, I want to. really. I want to make sure the joke translates for

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[sloane]: the folks in the cheaep seats at home. Uh,

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[ash_b]: that true people who were. I'm not willing to sound out the letters you've just said

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[ash_b]: to be.

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[sloane]: s ▁l u. T. Now what could be

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[sloane]: aligned with Slun's politics? that?

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[ash_b]: I'll come back to that.

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[ash_b]: Well, fantastic I.

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[sloane]: um, but yeah, it's like. I mean. it's like a big hug. I have like the most

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[sloane]: photogenic and lovely family in the world and there, like some of my cousins have

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[sloane]: new babies. That I got

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[ash_b]: Oh,

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[sloane]: to play with and who probably got me sick? Um

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[ash_b]: that's who got you sick. Yup babies are filthy. I've got two of them.

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[sloane]: y. yup. Yep. What's up in what's up in Ashyland?

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[ash_b]: You know that gets you sick all the time. I have uh, an

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[sloane]: You got news? You got an insight?

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[ash_b]: insight I got. Well, I got news. That's next. but, but off the top I got some

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[ash_b]: insights for you. Here's

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[sloane]: I'm clutching my pearls.

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[ash_b]: what I've learned. Here's where I've learned everybody. Everybodycause, it is

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[ash_b]: actually important in detail

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[ash_b]: On sites.

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[ash_b]: Are the new off sits?

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[sloane]: Hm.

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[ash_b]: I'll say it again on side to the new off sites. I keep getting invited to big fancy

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[ash_b]: meetings at the office

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[sloane]: hm,

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[ash_b]: and it's almost like

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[ash_b]: instead of doing an offsight with your team where you go in brainstorm, you finally

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[ash_b]: go to the fricken office for the first time in ages, and you sit down for a big

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[ash_b]: meeting. I've done too in the past

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[sloane]: hm,

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[ash_b]: two weeks, and it actually feels like the appropriate way to use the office

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[sloane]: yeah, y.

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[ash_b]: like you don't need to be in the office every day. People. I don't want to sit in the

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[ash_b]: commune.

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[ash_b]: But like you know, going into the conference room sitting with your folks once a

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[ash_b]: month once every two months for a big strategy Seash. that

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[sloane]: yeah.

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[ash_b]: feels right. And so I'm calling it, I think people like the new post coveed way of

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[ash_b]: doing off sites will be on sites. You'll finally go to the office.

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[sloane]: I. I love that idea. So you'd have like firms setting up like their own little tree

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[sloane]: houses where they can get people together and like you know, kind of have

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[ash_b]: Totally

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[sloane]: like. it'd be more about a hang than than being like, then creating a place for

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[sloane]: people to like. Do you know like the kind of work where you? should you like stick

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[sloane]: your head to a spreadsheet and figure stuff out?

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[ash_b]: exactly. First off. Have I told you that my fantasy with tree houses like I am,

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[sloane]: No,

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[ash_b]: like this, Isra that you would just call that out? Um, I really want a tree house? I

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[ash_b]: love the idea about being up the trees. Uh, that's but, anyways, that's for another

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[ash_b]: podcast. I think. Uh, probably not the free money and but then, yeah, I think it

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[ash_b]: changes the type of um. office space You even need

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[sloane]: yeah,

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[ash_b]: you know? Like why do you? Maybe it makes the case for we work. I don't know what the

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[ash_b]: hell it does, but

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[sloane]: Mm.

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[ash_b]: it definitely is going to change the way you use office space. and um, you know, much

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[ash_b]: more like sharing space, much more like party space.

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[sloane]: yep.

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[ash_b]: Things like that rather than offices with doors,

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[ash_b]: you know,

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[sloane]: yeah. well, I. what I love about that is it recognizes the nature of work as a

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[sloane]: social organism.

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[ash_b]: Mm.

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[sloane]: You know, Um, like, I mean the now, like so many people are starting jobs that

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[sloane]: they'll never meet their coworkers Il, unless those are int. Unless like,

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[ash_b]: so true.

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[sloane]: it's intentionally and and that's great for diversity in a lot of cases. Right like

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[sloane]: that means that you know the the kinds of conversations that like long tenndered

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[sloane]: employees have about strategy wind up being on slack and not in person, and

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[sloane]: therefore they're accessible to people and you know whatever, but um, you know I do

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[sloane]: love this. Uh, this idea of like let's all get together and and like talk for a day.

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[ash_b]: Oh, my gosh, Me too. I. it was a blast to actually sit there in a in an office with

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[ash_b]: some people, and like you know, shoot the shit, Um,

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[sloane]: W. Were you like Hey, so, uh,

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[sloane]: you guys like you guys got. think the world's going crazy.

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[ash_b]: tons of that like, Hey, how, what's crazy for you? I think this is crazy. It's like

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[ash_b]: you forget about the little chit chat you have with coworkers. because the ▁zoom. the

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[ash_b]: stakes are too high. You know,

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[sloane]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: it's like we're on the ▁zoo. Now this is serious.

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[ash_b]: Whereas when you're just like pass people in the hallway, you're like. let me tell

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[sloane]: oh yeah, it's a Ods.

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[ash_b]: you about this crazy shit that's going on. you know you don't. you don't get that in

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[ash_b]: the virtual world.

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[sloane]: Yeah, I always that guy's time all day,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, anyway, let me get to my news. Now

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[sloane]: M. Mhm,

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[ash_b]: that was my insight. you're welcome, and uh,

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[ash_b]: sorry. the news is quite good. My first bit of news has to do with playing. Follow

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[ash_b]: the Leader in the investment world, Um, I saw the Free Money podcast. Reteed This bit

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[ash_b]: of news to today, so I'm

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[sloane]: you know, if you,

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[ash_b]: guessing you might be familiar with it

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[sloane]: it. Yeah, if you go ahead and follow out free money for twenty sixty nine on

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[sloane]: Twitter, you can actually get ahead of the news cycle. Um, that's one of the things.

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[ash_b]: wholly. Should I forgot. We were free money for twenty sixty nine. That is fantastic.

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[ash_b]: How do we get the lift to pay for that or that was that available?

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[sloane]: Um, yeah, yeah, it's a you know like Dick, and you know, and uh, what's what's this

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[sloane]: face? Jack, the see of Twt and I go way back. I mean, so you know,

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[ash_b]: sweet swee,

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[ash_b]: um, free money for twenty sixty nine. Ah, okay, so follow the leader.

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[ash_b]: these organizations that we study in the world, O pensions and Sovereign Funs, et

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[ash_b]: cetera they struggle to innovate. They would look to each other, and they just follow

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[ash_b]: each other around.

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[ash_b]: Um. And in some ways I find that incredibly frustrating. In other ways, it is

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[ash_b]: actually pretty interesting to see when one organization finally gets off their ass

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[ash_b]: and does something great. All of a sudden, all the others start to follow. And so

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[ash_b]: when the University of California divested from fossil fuel, people are like Huh. And

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[ash_b]: then when Harvard did it, people were like, Oh,

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[ash_b]: and now this week we've got B, U and Mccarthur that have announced they're going to

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[ash_b]: divest from fossil fuel. And I think you know that dyke in the Netherlands is leaking

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[ash_b]: now and we are about to see a flood of these organizations. Decide that they're going

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[ash_b]: to divest out of fossil fuels And those are the moments when you're like shit. Maybe

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[ash_b]: I don't want to teach these organizations to be different.

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[ash_b]: You know where, like,

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[sloane]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: we could take advantage of their dysfunction, Um, in the herding and the follow the

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[ash_b]: leader mentality, Because pretty exciting to see these these organizations taking

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[ash_b]: that step.

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[sloane]: well, and like tactically now, it's a pretty good time to do it. If you're going to

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[sloane]: do it. I mean, like the cause. You know you've got this nice bump in, you know those

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[sloane]: commodity prices. you know. I guess the Um. you know, the the lexicon is to call it

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[sloane]: a dead cat bounce, which you know is not the most

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[ash_b]: Yes,

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[sloane]: vegan thing. but like you know, if you do believe over a long of time scale that

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[sloane]: those things are going away and you see prices behaving Um. And you have perhaps a

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[sloane]: multi year process of unwinding some of your positions in privates, and whatever,

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[ash_b]: Yeah,

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[sloane]: Um, you know, I mean like no time like the present to get off the horse, you know,

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[sloane]: or get on the horse, or

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[ash_b]: exactly. let's get. Maybe we can do one more analogy. A ho, a cat.

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[sloane]: I'm working on. I mean, I'm a little. I'm a little under the weather, so I, I don't

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[ash_b]: I'll give you to the end of the shell, Giveiv the other of the show to get what more

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[sloane]: know. my

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[ash_b]: edible refers in here.

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[ash_b]: speaking of carbon, not animals, speaking of carbon, Norways, Baheuth,

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[ash_b]: the Um. Government pension fund Global, It doesn't manage a pension fund, Just in

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[ash_b]: case you're wondering, it used to be called the petroleum fund, but it has one point

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[ash_b]: six trillion dollars of capital in it and it is going on The path hasn't come out and

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[ash_b]: said it itself yet. I don't think, um to net neutrality, but even more interesting,

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[ash_b]: it owns about one percent of every company on Earth

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[sloane]: yup.

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[ash_b]: and it is going to start pushing companies to define their path to net neutral. And

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[ash_b]: so you think about this, one of the world's biggest shareholders is. put, the put the

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[ash_b]: word out that they need plans from every

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[sloane]: Yep,

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[ash_b]: company they hold, which is every company.

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[ash_b]: Um, that every company they hold needs to show them a credible plan to net

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[ash_b]: neutrality. Very powerful.

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[sloane]: that's a huge deal. I mean these, these things are getting raised at a g. M. Now,

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[sloane]: Um, by adoacy groups like there's one called as you. So that has

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[ash_b]: Hm.

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[sloane]: done like you know, Probably three hunt. I feel like starting an active asset

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[sloane]: manager makes this a better podcastcause. Now I have a lot more scuttleb about

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[ash_b]: Yeah, you know a lot. you know a lot more.

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[sloane]: what's happened,

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[sloane]: Um, but like, but yeah, like there's so this, this group, as you say, has been

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[sloane]: trying to do that on their own forever. Um, and they're they routinely get like six

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[sloane]: percent of of the vote and shareholder

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[sloane]: resolutions. I think they had like three that passed or ate the past, you know.

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[ash_b]: Wow,

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[ash_b]: so six percent I should not be impressed by, Is that we are saying that's a bad thing

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[sloane]: S. Yeah, yeah, six, six percent of shareholders roote in favor of something is

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[sloane]: basically uh.

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[ash_b]: you lost.

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[sloane]: e. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[ash_b]: This isn't like the Nater crowd being like, Dude, we got four per cent. That's not

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[ash_b]: badn.

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[sloane]: whoa, were go to put the Libertarian party on the map. Uh

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[ash_b]: He was

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[sloane]: you? Yeah, well, whatever,

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[ash_b]: mix bi. a news

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[sloane]: Mm.

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[ash_b]: coming to you from the great City of Saint Louis,

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[ash_b]: Washington

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[ash_b]: Universities Endowment did something that I didn't think was possible. It. Basically,

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[ash_b]: if I round the numbers correctly, Um doubled last year.

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[sloane]: yep,

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[ash_b]: you know, I'm going

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[sloane]: Yep,

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[ash_b]: to do some rounding. I'll admit

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[sloane]: it's a slight right. everything.

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[ash_b]: that, okay, you know, and I'm rounding one down that I know I'm supposed to round up,

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[ash_b]: and then I'm rounding the other one up that I know I'm supposed to round down, but

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[ash_b]: I'm defining my own rules on free money

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[sloane]: Mhm, Mhm,

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[ash_b]: and I basically think it went from eight to sixteen billion in one year, and I am

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[ash_b]: just kind of blown away that you can take that much money which was already a big

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[ash_b]: amount,

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[sloane]: Yep,

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[ash_b]: eight million, and turning into almost sixteen in a single year.

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[sloane]: yup. what. but

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[ash_b]: I think we should all be afraid. I think we should all be afraid by that.

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[sloane]: well, also I think we should be a little bit delighted. I mean, you know one of the

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[sloane]: things I know you love. permanent capital vehicles played a role role in that. Um,

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[ash_b]: Oo. go on

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[sloane]: you know, one of the Uh Washu is the biggest investor in Uh. Brentb Shore's

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[sloane]: permanent capital vehicle.

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[ash_b]: right.

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[sloane]: Um, the you know, which is like, I mean. I remember when he started making noise

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[sloane]: about it on Twitter. I was like this man is insane. Uh, you know, I think he started

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[sloane]: in twenty twelve or something like that. Um, you know and then our friends had. S.

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[sloane]: he's got got on board not too long ago. Um, but I don't know. I don't know how that

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[sloane]: coincides with the wash U thing, but like, Um, you got to do weird stuff.

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[ash_b]: Well, I probably contributed to the performance. must have contributed.

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[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, and it's not by. um.

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[sloane]: It's not by being like, Uh, you know, too super conformist If they did that's by

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[sloane]: taking some risk.

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[ash_b]: Oh, you got to differentiate.

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[sloane]: Yep, yup. you got to

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[sloane]: differentiate speak. Speaking of different

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[ash_b]: It' got a different.

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[ash_b]: Speaking of differentiation. What are we talking about?

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[sloane]: y, we got the. We have probably the most differentiated guy on Earth in the waiting

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[sloane]: room right now.

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[ash_b]: Oh perfect.

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[sloane]: Uh, the Voss of reason, Uh,

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[ash_b]: this is. This is going to be mind blowing to

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[sloane]: yeah,

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[ash_b]: many of our listeners.

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[sloane]: my f, my former colleague, your current colleague, Theoss of reason, Jason of Paul

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[sloane]: of us,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: For for of reason,

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[sloane]: I can't believe I've never done that before. I can't like. I like. I came up with

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[sloane]: that. Uh, in the well, I was you know, getting ready for this to start. Welcome to

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[sloane]: the Free Money podcast.

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[ash_b]: Hi, Jason.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: I, it' superciing to be here honestly, because I haveve watched a couple

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[jason_apollo_voss]: of episodes, then also to hear the level of excitement in Sloan's voices.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: she describes the broadcast like In what you guys are up to that, I'm

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[jason_apollo_voss]: guess the super coal.

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[sloane]: Oh,

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[ash_b]: Yeah, we get really excited about the things that we do.

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[ash_b]: So there's that part of it, but Jason is awesome to have you here. We're going to get

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[ash_b]: into all the wild stuff that you do

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[ash_b]: as chief executive officer of data, which we will define in a moment. We're

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: not going to define it yet.

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[sloane]: the the literal president of Data here President,

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[ash_b]: Yes, like if you're a listener. Okay,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: noion,

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[ash_b]: C, e, o of data like that's not it and we are not ▁lying. When we say that and Jason

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[ash_b]: will be able to assess that In a moment. You'll see why, But Jason, before we get

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[ash_b]: into deception and truth analysis,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yes,

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[ash_b]: We, you were a fun manager. Yout you've been writing

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[ash_b]: like you've been around for a long time, and I didn't realze until part of this this

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[ash_b]: show not says we were preparing for you to come on that you' such a big defender of

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[ash_b]: active management,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: hu,

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[ash_b]: huge

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[sloane]: awkward,

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[ash_b]: defender, huge defender of active management, which is fun

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[jason_apollo_voss]: not but not broadly. I'm a defender under certain conditions.

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[ash_b]: right. so let's under, let dig in and cause we talk a lot about how you know the

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[ash_b]: world of private equity is one in which seventy eight percent of Gp's top corrt.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah,

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[ash_b]: You know everybody

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[ash_b]: is perpetrating like they're adding tons of value. but I want to hear from you. When

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[ash_b]: does active management work? And why are you such a staunch defender of it in those

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[ash_b]: circumstances

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[jason_apollo_voss]: well, I actually like how you thequi with the. What are the criteria?

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Because that's exactly the conditions that I put on it. Um, I'm gonna

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Ashby, Sloan. You both know me pretty well, but for the audience's sake,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: I like to think of things in terms of continuums, and especially

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[jason_apollo_voss]: opposites, So on one side we've got qualitative, then we've got

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[jason_apollo_voss]: quantitative trying to get in frame. here. Um, so let's serve qualitative

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[jason_apollo_voss]: right. All good arguments and logic theory. Say, you start with

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[jason_apollo_voss]: assumptions first, So the first, then the qualityative one will just get

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[jason_apollo_voss]: out of the way Is. I'm a believer in active management because I'm a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: believer in human beings and human potential and human consciousness to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: solve crazy problems. In fact, passive investing, index investing is a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: human invention, so that's the first thing. But then logically what are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the criteria? Um, actually, No, I'm going to share a metaphor. So I was a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: speaker in an event called the fund Form in Boston. I don't know. Six,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: seven years ago, it was on the stage. I've written an article talking

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[jason_apollo_voss]: about the benchmark tail, wagging the portfolio management dog that

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[jason_apollo_voss]: morning. Start picked up, and the organizer of this conference unbeknowns

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[jason_apollo_voss]: to me, as well as my guest on stage, which was the Morning Star analyst,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: who actually liked my post, but had written a rebuttal for Morningn Star

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[jason_apollo_voss]: was on stage, and the organizer had set it up as a debate, and both the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Mo star guy and I thought that that was pretty tacky To sort of throw us

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the wols, but we're both prepared. whatever. So anyway, in the ▁q and A,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: though I asked the following, I was asked the falling question. Um, are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: you believer and active And what? And I said Well, I'm a believer in

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[jason_apollo_voss]: active, because I think almost everybody is looking for their keys under

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the the uh night light or the street light. Not because that's where the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: keys have been lost, but but that's because everybody said that's where

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[jason_apollo_voss]: they should be found.

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[ash_b]: right.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: And so

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[sloane]: y,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: what does that mean And how doess that relate to the criteria? Well,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: First of all, I was an active and I had success. Uh, I beat the s. P.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Five hundred, my benchmark by forty nine point one percent, and my career

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[jason_apollo_voss]: iss a perennial lipper number one for multiple periods, I still don't see

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[jason_apollo_voss]: from my Catbird seat, Uh, being a consultant firms doing what I used to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: do. So I know that it's possible I know those techniques work. Because,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: when I have worked with firms that are successful as a consultant,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Because, until the first of September, I was C you of Active investor

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Management consulting Dot Com, the firms that I work with that are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: beating the benchmark, Consistently beating the benchmark are doing very

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[jason_apollo_voss]: similar things to what I was doing. So then that says Huh, Maybe we can

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[jason_apollo_voss]: trust these criteria. Okay, so what are some of the criteria? Um,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: concentrated works well, Uh, conviction works well, M. those things are

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[jason_apollo_voss]: somewhat the same assets under their management. Less than two billion

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[jason_apollo_voss]: works well, unconstrained works well, There's a perfect. No.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: But is it predictive of future outper performance? Yes, that was part

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[jason_apollo_voss]: comes from a study that we did for Active, and or I'm sorry, The return

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[jason_apollo_voss]: of the active manager? A co authorhur, Burke, I did with Tom Howard, and

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[jason_apollo_voss]: we actually did research for the book to support Um. our point of view

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[jason_apollo_voss]: because we heard people say. Yeah, I believe in active, but I know how to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: identify those managers. I'm just going to sell these Uh index products

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[ash_b]: Hm

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[jason_apollo_voss]: because of it, Um. So

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[jason_apollo_voss]: the the short answer is, I'm I'm a believer because I know that people

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[jason_apollo_voss]: still aren't doing what I did as late as two thousand five, sixteen years

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[jason_apollo_voss]: ago, and I can. I'm happy to talk about this criteria. I talk about them

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[jason_apollo_voss]: publicly frequently. Um, but one final point, Um,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Because it I, I have to explain my metaphor with the looking for your

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[jason_apollo_voss]: keys under the light,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: and I'm going to use. I forgive, I'm using another analogy And and it

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[jason_apollo_voss]: comes from Return to the act of manager, Yeah, can,

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[ash_b]: 's all good. We, before you get on we, we had like seven animal

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[ash_b]: analogies, So if you could throw an animal in there

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[sloane]: yeah, y, y.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, exactly

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[jason_apollo_voss]: all

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[ash_b]: that would be great.

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[ash_b]: that would be great.

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[sloane]: yeah, yeah,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: I, I. I will. I will throw in a sprinter. How is that somebody who runs

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[jason_apollo_voss]: as fast as or faster than Min Anals? So ussain bull, say, whossain ball,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: unquestionably the greatest, You, one hundred and two meters, two hundred

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[jason_apollo_voss]: meters sprinter of all time, Say you are some one trying to recruit a Uh,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: great sprinter for your Olympic track, Teak, right, tough competition. We

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[jason_apollo_voss]: can liken it. Investment management, very tough to do is every sprinter,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: you sayain, Bo. no, No, they are not, and that isn't the standard. But

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[jason_apollo_voss]: imagine the following, Ah, I want Luce Bolts retired so Iward to uh,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: somebody who is exactly his same height. I wanted somebody the same

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[jason_apollo_voss]: weight. I want somebody who has the same body mass index, his body fat

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[jason_apollo_voss]: level. I want somebody who has the same Fastwich muscle responses in his

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[jason_apollo_voss]: legs. I would have hired his track coach. Six, I want to hire. I may even

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[jason_apollo_voss]: get Nike to make the same custom shoes. They made for Husseain and I, and

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[jason_apollo_voss]: maybe I'll even get the same person from the same township to run the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: race. Here's that is a metaphor for how active manager is done and the

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[jason_apollo_voss]: constraints put on them. You have to be Hussaint Bull, and by a

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[jason_apollo_voss]: definition we've said The index is you say. Well, here's the problem.

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[jason_apollo_voss]: We've lost sight of something. It's not about being you sain bol, it's

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[jason_apollo_voss]: about winning the god damn race.

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[ash_b]: Am

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[jason_apollo_voss]: and

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[sloane]: three, yeah,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: to me, that's why I'm a defender of active management is our active

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[jason_apollo_voss]: manager is constructed unconsciously. A number of mechanisms designed to

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[jason_apollo_voss]: describe performance after the fact that have become navigal compass

404

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[jason_apollo_voss]: points before the fact, and most of the problems of why act of under

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[jason_apollo_voss]: performs I would chalk up to,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: We will do anything to get the additional dollar of assets under

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[jason_apollo_voss]: management that our consultants and our acid owners request of us,

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[jason_apollo_voss]: including throw on to the bonfire, our actual ability to deliver Alpha.

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[sloane]: hm,

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00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400

[ash_b]: the very fact that we call it Active management. By the way.

411

00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:37,900

[ash_b]: it's

412

00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,280

[ash_b]: it. It is a very conformous way of describing it because it's it's a function of like

413

00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,960

[ash_b]: putting it up against the passive management, and so act in the old days we would

414

00:20:49,020 --> 00:20:50,020

[ash_b]: just call it investing.

415

00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:51,150

[sloane]: yup,

416

00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,120

[ash_b]: And then we had the passive and now you're active. but oh, you're an active. so

417

00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,600

[ash_b]: you're all together over there in active land. The the difference for us is that,

418

00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,560

[ash_b]: like I think the three of us would say, the differentiation is where the value comes

419

00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,200

[ash_b]: from. and, and so, calling them active, or calling them, whatever the point is, you

420

00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,160

[ash_b]: need to be unconstrained and you need to be able to go and and pursue the truth in

421

00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,040

[ash_b]: different ways. anyway. I love the way you're describing it.

422

00:21:17,074 --> 00:21:19,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, yeah, oh, I'll have one other thing other there. But and I I love

423

00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:22,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: analogies. Both of you know that by now, Um,

424

00:21:24,194 --> 00:21:27,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: creativity enough are essentially the same thing. right Alpha is

425

00:21:27,234 --> 00:21:30,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: delivering results that nobody else is doing by doing things that nobody

426

00:21:30,194 --> 00:21:33,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: else is doing. And by the way, creativity has the same definition. One of

427

00:21:33,714 --> 00:21:37,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: the things that I used to do was I wanted as many options on the table as

428

00:21:37,714 --> 00:21:42,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: possible to unleash my creativity. How creative is it when you are a

429

00:21:43,074 --> 00:21:48,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: midcap core manager? and if you've done your job well and your assets

430

00:21:48,514 --> 00:21:52,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: appreciate, you may have ▁zero turnover, but eventually you're going to

431

00:21:52,354 --> 00:21:55,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: drift up into large cap value. you're going to have a consultant call you

432

00:21:55,954 --> 00:21:59,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: up and say you know what you've got. Style drift. You know you guys need

433

00:21:59,154 --> 00:22:02,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: to manage this or we're going to fire you. Oh, by the way, that's twenty

434

00:22:01,040 --> 00:23:59,360

[ash_b]: Ssssssssssssss.

435

00:22:02,514 --> 00:22:06,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: percent of your a U. M that it's going to go out the door, and so now

436

00:22:06,114 --> 00:22:09,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: we're going to have to lay off the two hundred uh, customer service. C.

437

00:22:09,474 --> 00:22:12,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: you know representatives that we've got in part of the compliance

438

00:22:12,994 --> 00:22:16,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: department and the real world consequences to style drift. That has

439

00:22:16,594 --> 00:22:21,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: nothing to do with seeking performance. So to me that's that's why I'm a

440

00:22:21,394 --> 00:22:25,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: believer in active now. If I were starting affrm today, I would not want

441

00:22:25,714 --> 00:22:29,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: to scale it, I would start with a different business model. I think all

442

00:22:29,234 --> 00:22:34,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: of these things are rooted in the business model of the business is

443

00:22:35,234 --> 00:22:39,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: management fee, a percentage of the assets under management. If you had

444

00:22:37,130 --> 00:23:01,770

[sloane]: mm, Hm. Well, so

445

00:22:39,394 --> 00:22:40,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: it performance based,

446

00:22:41,634 --> 00:22:46,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: nobody would make the decisions to scale up their assets because every p.

447

00:22:46,354 --> 00:22:50,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: M, who's ever managed money actively at the bar, they will all say well,

448

00:22:50,594 --> 00:22:53,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's a pain of the butt. It's really hard to do it, and your three

449

00:22:53,874 --> 00:22:57,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: hundred and third favorite security is not likely to deliver the same

450

00:22:57,634 --> 00:22:59,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: outf as your top ten. and the data shows that

451

00:23:00,834 --> 00:23:04,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: and the only reason I buy the three hundred and third position in my

452

00:23:04,034 --> 00:23:07,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: portfolio, you know, be less less condescending my hundred and third

453

00:23:08,354 --> 00:23:12,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: largest position. The only reason I do is I have to soak up assets in

454

00:23:12,274 --> 00:23:17,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: cash that's been sent to me because the way I make money is a bigger pile

455

00:23:17,554 --> 00:23:21,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: of cash as opposed to uh, actually delivering performance.

456

00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:25,130

[sloane]: hm. I mean. Well, you know that's that gets right to the next question. I mean, like

457

00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:29,290

[sloane]: you know, I, I think that you know investors in general if you go to them and you're

458

00:23:29,450 --> 00:23:33,130

[sloane]: like Hey, you guys have and you've kind of done this like you've taken your like

459

00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:37,690

[sloane]: ninety five theseis, and like you know, pin them to the front door, Uh, various, you

460

00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:43,130

[sloane]: know, uh investment industry, um cathedrals, And you know, and sort of said he, you

461

00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:47,370

[sloane]: know, Hey, like look, I mean this is. this is the metaphor show guys. Everyone loves

462

00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:48,070

[sloane]: it,

463

00:23:49,050 --> 00:23:53,690

[sloane]: but you know, I mean that's one of the big big blind spots right there is optimizing

464

00:23:53,850 --> 00:23:58,170

[sloane]: for fee income. Um, you know, I wonder like, are there any other unifying

465

00:23:58,330 --> 00:24:02,650

[sloane]: characteristics that you would kind of point you if you think about, you know things

466

00:24:00,640 --> 00:25:18,800

[ash_b]: issssssssssssss.

467

00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:06,250

[sloane]: that the investment profession is just not set up to deal with wealth?

468

00:24:06,914 --> 00:24:10,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: Well, I mean, that's a huge one, right. So if that were changed and were

469

00:24:10,994 --> 00:24:12,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: performance driven, you would see the immediate

470

00:24:14,434 --> 00:24:18,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: loss of a u. M in the ▁quot active categories because people who have

471

00:24:18,834 --> 00:24:24,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: been closet indexers or just barely fail Ors, For you know, ten years

472

00:24:24,914 --> 00:24:27,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: would leave the business and what they would do is they would consolidate

473

00:24:28,114 --> 00:24:31,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: with other managers. scale and slow. You and I wrote about this

474

00:24:31,634 --> 00:24:34,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: investment idea generation guide, Or I'm sorry, we, We did work for a

475

00:24:34,914 --> 00:24:38,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: future state of investment profession. My apologies for C F. A institute,

476

00:24:38,434 --> 00:24:41,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: but we use scenario planning thinking to do this. What does the world

477

00:24:41,714 --> 00:24:45,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: look like? Fast forward seven to ten years in theveestel business? And we

478

00:24:45,154 --> 00:24:48,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: said there'd be massive consolidation. What would be left are Act

479

00:24:48,754 --> 00:24:52,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: manager? You actually could do what they do. The consolidators will cut

480

00:24:52,754 --> 00:24:57,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: their fees lower, lower, lower, lower, and essentially they're going to

481

00:24:57,314 --> 00:25:00,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: look for ways to compete. The prediction of future, Sayve, the investment

482

00:25:00,674 --> 00:25:04,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: profession that I argued, and it was really hard to get in. Uh, it was

483

00:25:04,914 --> 00:25:08,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: kind of an over my dead body. If this doesn't get in, I said that we

484

00:25:08,654 --> 00:25:09,654

[jason_apollo_voss]: would see

485

00:25:10,354 --> 00:25:13,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh, fund management offered as a lost leader,

486

00:25:14,114 --> 00:25:19,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: and like twenty four months later Fidelity came out and offered ▁zero

487

00:25:18,814 --> 00:25:19,814

[jason_apollo_voss]: fee.

488

00:25:19,954 --> 00:25:23,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: In thats what Management and I said. What they will try to do is add on

489

00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,040

[ash_b]: Yeah, I'

490

00:25:23,474 --> 00:25:27,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: higher value ad services. And because of computing, because of a I,

491

00:25:28,034 --> 00:25:32,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: because of big data scraping all that stuff, you can offer a high touch

492

00:25:32,594 --> 00:25:36,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: private wealth client to a smaller a U M client than you were before. My

493

00:25:36,914 --> 00:25:41,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: prediction is we're going to see lots of consolidation and the small and

494

00:25:41,394 --> 00:25:44,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: medium sized clients are going to get better service than they ever have

495

00:25:45,074 --> 00:25:49,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: been before. And they'm not talking about some of the the robos, Um.

496

00:25:50,034 --> 00:25:53,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: That's a whole, another subject. But anyway, Um, and I and I think what

497

00:25:53,234 --> 00:25:55,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: youre couldnna have left is an active category that has different

498

00:25:55,634 --> 00:25:58,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: business models. They're going to say, you know what we can't compete

499

00:25:58,994 --> 00:26:02,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: here. Interesting, Stat'll throw out because this is a. This is such a

500

00:26:02,834 --> 00:26:06,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: fun topic and a passion. One. For me, Um, you would think that the

501

00:26:06,994 --> 00:26:10,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: highest fee charging managers. Oh, I'm sorry, you would think the best

502

00:26:11,474 --> 00:26:15,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: performing managers, the most consistently good performing managers would

503

00:26:15,634 --> 00:26:19,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: have low fees. It's actually the opposite. They charge the highest fees

504

00:26:19,474 --> 00:26:22,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: because they recognize the value of research. That was research that we

505

00:26:22,514 --> 00:26:25,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: did for Return of the Active Manager that we published in the book, And

506

00:26:25,474 --> 00:26:28,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's on. I think, s. s r N. if I'm not mistaken, and we thought that was

507

00:26:29,154 --> 00:26:32,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: quite interesting. Somebody else did a follow piece of research and they

508

00:26:32,434 --> 00:26:35,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: confirmed the same thing. The best performing managers have the highest

509

00:26:36,034 --> 00:26:39,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: fees and that runs completely contrary to what people believe, but it

510

00:26:39,954 --> 00:26:43,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: again shows charge for performance and that that's a more

511

00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:44,780

[ash_b]: yeah.

512

00:26:44,034 --> 00:26:45,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: correct business model.

513

00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:50,970

[sloane]: It that also kind of underpins like you know what you know, a view of what investing

514

00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:54,810

[sloane]: is right. Like you know, Th. Those guys are charging higher fees because they have

515

00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:59,210

[sloane]: process thats outside of the the the traditional. You know way of doing things that

516

00:26:59,130 --> 00:27:02,170

[sloane]: that creates results that are outside of the traditional way of doing things, and

517

00:27:02,250 --> 00:27:05,450

[sloane]: that allows them to justify. You know this sort of thing, I think Steve Cohen

518

00:27:05,610 --> 00:27:09,210

[sloane]: famously charge like four and forty for a while, or rent, maybe charges four and

519

00:27:09,210 --> 00:27:10,250

[sloane]: forty or something like that.

520

00:27:10,674 --> 00:27:13,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: Ford Forty, that's good. get my answerk. One last thing. I know, we got a

521

00:27:13,534 --> 00:27:14,534

[jason_apollo_voss]: lot to cover, and

522

00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:16,410

[sloane]: Absolutely not. No, yes, you what you want?

523

00:27:15,474 --> 00:27:19,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: it asy is a as a, a full disclosure founding advisor of data wants me to

524

00:27:19,774 --> 00:27:20,774

[jason_apollo_voss]: talk data. Oh, this

525

00:27:20,340 --> 00:27:21,340

[ash_b]: ▁zero,

526

00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:21,574

[jason_apollo_voss]: is ancient industry.

527

00:27:22,514 --> 00:27:28,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: Well, well, so the the other thing I'll say, Uh about active is it's not

528

00:27:28,774 --> 00:27:29,774

[jason_apollo_voss]: easy,

529

00:27:30,054 --> 00:27:31,054

[jason_apollo_voss]: but

530

00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:31,420

[ash_b]: right,

531

00:27:30,754 --> 00:27:36,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's even harder. still if you agree to all these unnecessary own goals

532

00:27:37,794 --> 00:27:42,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: and to going back to the Fun forum thing in Boston. I gave the the

533

00:27:43,074 --> 00:27:46,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: analogy you know, with the looking for the keys, cent of the light and a

534

00:27:46,514 --> 00:27:50,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: guy the guys follow. Question to me was the following. he said. Well, how

535

00:27:50,594 --> 00:27:55,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: do you compete when? Uh, everybody in the universe now looks at, you

536

00:27:55,394 --> 00:27:58,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: know, the large cap stocks in the United States already have bad value

537

00:27:58,754 --> 00:28:01,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: and I said I hope that every single one of my computeretors thinks that's

538

00:28:01,934 --> 00:28:02,934

[jason_apollo_voss]: the problem to solve.

539

00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:06,110

[sloane]: Yup,

540

00:28:05,494 --> 00:28:06,494

[jason_apollo_voss]: The problem to

541

00:28:06,140 --> 00:28:07,140

[ash_b]: totally

542

00:28:06,354 --> 00:28:10,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: solved is define return wherever it exists, and by the way, that is what

543

00:28:10,274 --> 00:28:13,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: the fund management industry was, prior to Famma and French saying,

544

00:28:14,114 --> 00:28:19,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: identifying two unique factors, the small cap effect and the value

545

00:28:19,634 --> 00:28:23,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: effect, which then literally not for return to the act of Bandro, I traed

546

00:28:23,234 --> 00:28:26,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: the history like two months after Farm and French in Chicago.

547

00:28:27,554 --> 00:28:30,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: At their there, they had some event I, that which they still host

548

00:28:30,914 --> 00:28:34,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: occasionally, Um, where they talk about. You know anomalies within the

549

00:28:34,994 --> 00:28:39,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: official market hypothesis and they, anyway, they revealed these two to

550

00:28:39,394 --> 00:28:42,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: greatate claim in Nineteen ninety Two two months later, Morning Star,

551

00:28:43,074 --> 00:28:46,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: also in Chicago. I'm guessing they' in attendance I' tried to confirm. it

552

00:28:46,114 --> 00:28:49,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: released the style boox with Guess what, and essentially this was meant

553

00:28:50,034 --> 00:28:54,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: to describe the Starbucks was how performance is delivered by managers.

554

00:28:54,194 --> 00:28:57,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: Because the progenitors of the official market hypothesis, Sonoa,

555

00:28:58,114 --> 00:29:01,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: acknowledg, You can't add value. These are the two ways how, and we're

556

00:29:01,394 --> 00:29:05,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: stuck now with the style Boox and it is illegitimate. So reasons, it's

557

00:29:05,874 --> 00:29:08,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: such a passiono. Last thing I said, this is the third time I said last

558

00:29:09,074 --> 00:29:13,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: thing, both axes, proof that it's illegitimate. Both actxes have price of

559

00:29:13,474 --> 00:29:17,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: the securities that the measure of both axes. So what that means is both

560

00:29:17,394 --> 00:29:19,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: of them are superp sensitive. Tell you what

561

00:29:19,060 --> 00:29:20,060

[ash_b]: yeah.

562

00:29:19,634 --> 00:29:22,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: independent measures of the same if different phenomena, wouldn't that

563

00:29:22,834 --> 00:29:24,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: alone, tell you that it's illegitimate.

564

00:29:25,694 --> 00:29:26,694

[jason_apollo_voss]: Just just logically

565

00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,640

[ash_b]: yeah, and if cre, if creativity is alpha, you've now been stuck in a box like.

566

00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:35,600

[ash_b]: Where's the creativity?

567

00:29:35,734 --> 00:29:36,734

[jason_apollo_voss]: anyway,

568

00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:37,230

[sloane]: Yp.

569

00:29:36,594 --> 00:29:41,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: I don't. I'll I. I will smack my gob. I learned today, The God Smack

570

00:29:41,474 --> 00:29:44,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: literally means to like, cover your mouth right, some Fx gopsma.

571

00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:46,650

[sloane]: Well, no, hey', I mean,

572

00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,080

[ash_b]: Thank you, Thank you,

573

00:29:47,130 --> 00:29:50,330

[sloane]: I guess I have a related question before we get the data, which is, have you ever

574

00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:52,010

[sloane]: had a lukewarm opinion? Jason.

575

00:29:53,554 --> 00:29:57,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: I did it earlier today. I was I. I. I'm winding up my consulting career

576

00:29:57,794 --> 00:30:01,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: and I was talking to a consultant and they asked me how how to discuss a

577

00:30:01,954 --> 00:30:05,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: difficult subject. Guess what with their consulting community and I said,

578

00:30:06,114 --> 00:30:09,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: I don't know. I said I said I'm fifty fifty Either way, so that's your

579

00:30:10,114 --> 00:30:14,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: judgment, so yes, I do. I have Luke form opinions, but I'm privileged

580

00:30:14,914 --> 00:30:18,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: because people, I guess either like what that I'm loud, or whatever they

581

00:30:18,674 --> 00:30:22,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: it is they like about me that I'm invited into the forms where I get to

582

00:30:22,274 --> 00:30:24,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: talk about the things I do have strong opinions about.

583

00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:30,490

[sloane]: Yep. well, and like I mean, so this is. You know what we've been leading up to.

584

00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:34,410

[sloane]: Let's talk about data. I mean, like I, you know, I am old enough to remember. I've

585

00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:39,290

[sloane]: known you for long enough to uh, remember you like selling doing some lie detection

586

00:30:39,450 --> 00:30:42,730

[sloane]: research internally. It. see if institute as like a thing that was worth your time.

587

00:30:44,490 --> 00:30:49,050

[sloane]: But can you maybe characterize like what the heck people thought about it? What was

588

00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:53,450

[sloane]: published when you got to it and what's changed in the last five years in terms of

589

00:30:53,530 --> 00:30:56,090

[sloane]: like you know, professional practical understanding of this stuff?

590

00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,400

[ash_b]: and defined data so that we can

591

00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:59,070

[sloane]: Oh yeah,

592

00:30:58,420 --> 00:30:59,420

[ash_b]: find late. Yeah,

593

00:30:59,394 --> 00:31:03,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, guess so data that Ashby Sloan are referring to Deception of truth

594

00:31:03,634 --> 00:31:08,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: in us is d a t. a uh, my new company and I'm the full time c, e o of A as

595

00:31:08,754 --> 00:31:12,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: of first of September, though I'm winding down previous commitments. Uh,

596

00:31:13,154 --> 00:31:16,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: and it? It's a company where we use computers, specifically natural

597

00:31:17,154 --> 00:31:20,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: language processing to quickly and rapidly assess the level of

598

00:31:20,514 --> 00:31:24,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: deceptiveness or truthfulness within a document. We can ▁zero in within

599

00:31:24,354 --> 00:31:28,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: like you, like four pages. Uh, within a document of where the deception

600

00:31:28,834 --> 00:31:32,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: is in the language That trigger triggered our egos. Um. So anyway, going

601

00:31:32,994 --> 00:31:37,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: back to c f a institute? Yeah, th. it was actually slung when I chose to

602

00:31:37,714 --> 00:31:41,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: exit retirement. I don't know. To what degree this has really sort of

603

00:31:41,394 --> 00:31:44,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: been widely discussed in a public forum before, and I don't even know

604

00:31:44,754 --> 00:31:49,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: that you know it'slo But I chose to exit retirement. I was a happy you

605

00:31:49,234 --> 00:31:52,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: know, uh, pickup football basketball, uh player, and published a

606

00:31:52,914 --> 00:31:56,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: investment blog mostly to deflect uh, relatives and friends asking me

607

00:31:57,074 --> 00:31:59,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: investment questions. Like if I put on a blog, I can just say read the

608

00:31:59,954 --> 00:32:04,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: blog. Um, and to to preserve, you know, my pickup football games, and

609

00:32:05,074 --> 00:32:09,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: what have you? Um? so anyway, um, during the financial crisis, though uh

610

00:32:09,954 --> 00:32:13,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: dawn, my wife and I were watching television and there was a Perp walk

611

00:32:14,034 --> 00:32:18,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: and they were walking out some finance executive. Uh, to to you know,

612

00:32:18,594 --> 00:32:21,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: they were arrested and I said we're all the good people in finance. I

613

00:32:21,714 --> 00:32:26,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: said I, You know, I've been in finance at that point twenty years, or how

614

00:32:26,434 --> 00:32:29,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: many years it had been? They said there are good people in finance. In

615

00:32:29,154 --> 00:32:32,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: fact, most of them are Renaissance human beings that are curious, broadly

616

00:32:33,394 --> 00:32:36,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: interested in the world, trying to do things right, trying to change

617

00:32:37,154 --> 00:32:38,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: things, Et cetera And she goes,

618

00:32:42,274 --> 00:32:45,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: and I was like. Are are you talking to me And she's like

619

00:32:47,634 --> 00:32:51,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: And I was like Point taken. Yeah, I. I. I guess I'm one of supposedly

620

00:32:52,034 --> 00:32:55,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: good people in finance and I'm just yelling at this T. v doing nothing.

621

00:32:55,554 --> 00:32:59,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: And so I was like, Okay, Well, where can I have influence? And where can

622

00:32:59,394 --> 00:33:02,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: I have platform without necessarily being a fund manager again, which I

623

00:33:02,434 --> 00:33:06,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: wasn't interested in. So I was looking around for jobs. I was thinking

624

00:33:06,754 --> 00:33:10,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: about writing a book. I did write a book. Um, and I saw. I went to the c.

625

00:33:10,674 --> 00:33:14,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: F. A Institute Jobs Board and see if Institute was advertising for the

626

00:33:14,114 --> 00:33:16,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: role of content director, which you know, Uh, both of you, I think that

627

00:33:16,914 --> 00:33:19,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: I, I held that role. That's where I'm att, Sloan, as content,

628

00:33:20,034 --> 00:33:23,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: directctory, fancy, And what appealed to me about that role was something

629

00:33:24,194 --> 00:33:29,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: to the effect of Um. Your job is to make members wiser or smarter. Uh, by

630

00:33:30,114 --> 00:33:33,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: identifying compelling investment ideas or speakers that are new and

631

00:33:33,794 --> 00:33:36,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: cutting edge and you know, feature them througho. you know distribution

632

00:33:36,834 --> 00:33:40,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: of as well as if there, subjects you think should be being talked about,

633

00:33:40,594 --> 00:33:44,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: but aren't you? You are charged with developing that and the original job

634

00:33:44,194 --> 00:33:47,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: description and something like that. I was like. That is what I'm looking

635

00:33:47,394 --> 00:33:51,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: to do and I've you know, Call Ashby, knows this about me better than you

636

00:33:51,954 --> 00:33:55,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: do. Sloane, uh, I, I like the Jeddi K nights. I always kind of saw a C if

637

00:33:55,294 --> 00:33:56,294

[jason_apollo_voss]: they introduceed

638

00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:56,740

[ash_b]: Yep,

639

00:33:56,194 --> 00:33:57,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: the Jatites, But

640

00:33:57,130 --> 00:33:59,930

[sloane]: I mean, yeah. you know before you start working there,

641

00:34:00,194 --> 00:34:02,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: yeah, exactly, and then I kind of thought they were the Catholic Church,

642

00:34:03,154 --> 00:34:06,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: but that's the whole mother story. Um, you know, they're similar, right,

643

00:34:07,394 --> 00:34:09,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: right, A correct genderating orders

644

00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,400

[ash_b]: I think Ana and Sky Walkaler had the same reaction.

645

00:34:13,154 --> 00:34:20,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: Toche th t th. But anyway I joint see iff to literally, day two, Uh of me

646

00:34:20,674 --> 00:34:25,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: joining. I sent an email to Rob Gown, who was Uh you. At one point four,

647

00:34:25,554 --> 00:34:30,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: both of our supervisors, uh, Sn to mine, and I said, uh, my detection, I

648

00:34:30,274 --> 00:34:34,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: think is a uh skill. I said, We are super dependent upon the statemention

649

00:34:34,674 --> 00:34:38,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: forth from the mouths of management of businesses, and we have no skill

650

00:34:39,234 --> 00:34:42,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: set on how to do this. At the very least we should develop. We should

651

00:34:42,594 --> 00:34:45,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: work with people on how do you interview people or something, And I was

652

00:34:45,554 --> 00:34:49,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: interested in a whole suite of interview techniques, and literally, like

653

00:34:49,554 --> 00:34:54,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: four weeks later I started working with Doctor Maria Hartwig, one of the

654

00:34:54,434 --> 00:34:58,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: few deception scientists in the world. There, Not a lot. And we we sa

655

00:34:59,154 --> 00:35:01,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: down. We outline like if we want to change the world through lie

656

00:35:01,874 --> 00:35:06,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: detection, What do we have to do And over Luunnch at Landmark at Uh,

657

00:35:06,834 --> 00:35:11,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: Columbus Circle and Central Park South, Uh, the restaurant. We, on a

658

00:35:11,394 --> 00:35:15,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: napkin, outlined what we wanted to do, and so it's a subject I've always

659

00:35:15,474 --> 00:35:18,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: been interested in from my days as a fund manager, and then in the last

660

00:35:19,154 --> 00:35:23,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: couple of years I in, in my being a deception scientist and a published

661

00:35:23,314 --> 00:35:26,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: deception scientist, I knew that there you could use computing to to

662

00:35:27,154 --> 00:35:31,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: solve this problem. And uh, so, a couple of years ago I had a venture

663

00:35:31,394 --> 00:35:35,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: capital consulting client. say hey, we're getting burned by our hires. We

664

00:35:35,794 --> 00:35:39,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: keep hiring people who have fibbed on there in the recruiting process.

665

00:35:40,114 --> 00:35:43,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: Can you help me? And so that's how data started? Whereas I developed

666

00:35:43,314 --> 00:35:47,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: something based on reading the scientific literature and applying my own.

667

00:35:49,874 --> 00:35:54,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: I don't know how to characterize Uss. Here's a lukewarm opinion. Um. I

668

00:35:54,194 --> 00:35:59,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: would call myself Uh, mildly quantity, you know. And so I applied what I

669

00:35:59,234 --> 00:36:00,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: know from how to solve quap

670

00:36:00,110 --> 00:36:01,110

[sloane]: '.

671

00:36:00,754 --> 00:36:04,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: problems in investing to what the academics are doing, and sort of

672

00:36:04,834 --> 00:36:07,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: developed data, and it's evolved over time. but like I did it fairly

673

00:36:07,954 --> 00:36:11,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: quickly, like in a couple of weekends I had an algorithm ready that

674

00:36:11,874 --> 00:36:16,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: actually s helped them solve their problems. So that's the the long long

675

00:36:16,294 --> 00:36:17,294

[jason_apollo_voss]: story there.

676

00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,840

[ash_b]: What? just for the like, the benefit of everybody out there that is wondering what

677

00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,440

[ash_b]: the heck these algorithms are tracking. What is the difference between deception and

678

00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,720

[ash_b]: ▁lying? And what? Like what it is the algorithm doing That's better than others. And

679

00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,440

[ash_b]: how much better is it? Just give us some more contexts. There.

680

00:36:35,714 --> 00:36:40,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, so so thank you for asking. Um, So W, Technically we're looking at

681

00:36:40,194 --> 00:36:45,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: what it call psycho linguistic ▁ cues, which are essentially behaviors of

682

00:36:45,874 --> 00:36:49,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: an individual revealed through their language use. So a, as an example,

683

00:36:50,294 --> 00:36:51,294

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh,

684

00:36:51,954 --> 00:36:56,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: when asked to recall a memory, Uh, truth tellers reference in actual

685

00:36:56,754 --> 00:37:00,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: memory, and usually it's a memory of them moving through time and space,

686

00:37:00,834 --> 00:37:06,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: And so they use uh, motion verbs, and they use time oriented verbs like

687

00:37:06,674 --> 00:37:10,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: before, After sense. You know those kinds of things later. Uh, liars

688

00:37:11,394 --> 00:37:15,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: manufacture it and they're abstracting and they don't use those kinds of

689

00:37:15,234 --> 00:37:18,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: details. So that that's a a difference you know between lawers and twof

690

00:37:18,914 --> 00:37:21,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: and data we're looking at more than thirty of those psycho linguistic ▁

691

00:37:21,934 --> 00:37:22,934

[jason_apollo_voss]: cues, all of which have

692

00:37:22,620 --> 00:37:23,620

[ash_b]: Interesting.

693

00:37:22,994 --> 00:37:26,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: been Uh, identified as statistically significant, Um. The difference

694

00:37:26,754 --> 00:37:30,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: between liars and deceivers or lies and deception is something actually

695

00:37:30,994 --> 00:37:36,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: that the academics uh, obsess over, and they've been a great lenks to

696

00:37:36,674 --> 00:37:40,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: define what technically is a lie. The difference in deception, Lie is

697

00:37:40,754 --> 00:37:45,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: sort of uh, intent and damage done. So,

698

00:37:46,434 --> 00:37:52,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: for example, uh, if if your spouse or significant other says, do I look

699

00:37:52,274 --> 00:37:54,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: good in this outfit for the evening,

700

00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:55,500

[ash_b]: Yes,

701

00:37:54,914 --> 00:38:00,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: and do you say yes? But you really mean no. the academics would say

702

00:38:00,674 --> 00:38:04,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: That's really more about deception than a lie. And the reason why is it

703

00:38:04,274 --> 00:38:05,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: benefits both parties

704

00:38:06,674 --> 00:38:11,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: that that that whye actually benefits your your supposedly sensitive

705

00:38:11,554 --> 00:38:15,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: spouse, Though they didn't get a vote. Uh, really, and it protects you as

706

00:38:15,794 --> 00:38:19,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: well. Um, Whereass a lot of benefits only one party. So that's one of the

707

00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:22,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: technical ways that they've tried to draw the line and say this is bad.

708

00:38:23,154 --> 00:38:27,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: This is semi bad, but not entirely bad. you know. Um, so that's that's

709

00:38:28,114 --> 00:38:31,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: That's the academic way of describing them. Oh, oh, you askedk me about

710

00:38:32,114 --> 00:38:36,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: improvement. So, um, uh, data, Uh, there, there' a a piece of research

711

00:38:36,994 --> 00:38:40,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: done in January this year that looked at expert's ability to surface

712

00:38:40,754 --> 00:38:46,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: deception by reading texts of any kind, Right, and they and I, I don't

713

00:38:46,514 --> 00:38:50,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: remember. the. S. what? What the variety was in the sample Like? Was it

714

00:38:50,274 --> 00:38:54,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: scientific papers? essays? I, I don't remember, but they human beings

715

00:38:54,274 --> 00:38:58,834

[jason_apollo_voss]: came in at exactly fifty percent accurate in surfacing deception, So here

716

00:38:58,994 --> 00:39:03,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: Ive got a I've got an old fiftypence or fifty shilling point Here my

717

00:39:03,234 --> 00:39:05,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: desk. I like it because they have seven sides anyway.

718

00:39:05,140 --> 00:39:06,140

[ash_b]: Yeah,

719

00:39:06,114 --> 00:39:11,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: fifty percent is flipping that coin rank. It's not very good. Uh data. We

720

00:39:11,154 --> 00:39:14,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: are eighty seven a half percent accurate for word samples of eight

721

00:39:14,674 --> 00:39:18,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: hundred and fifty, Um, and we're able to assess much much faster. We're

722

00:39:18,594 --> 00:39:22,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: ninety, nine point nine, nine, seven percent faster than people. Based on

723

00:39:22,274 --> 00:39:26,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: clock speed tests, we've done. Um. Humans can read about a hundred and

724

00:39:26,114 --> 00:39:29,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: twenty five words a second. We can assess seventy thousand four hundred

725

00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:33,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: words per second and with a much higher accuracy, so that that's why this

726

00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:40,480

[ash_b]: some of the. I feel like there was a story in a news outlet recently about Uh ensurer

727

00:39:33,614 --> 00:39:34,614

[jason_apollo_voss]: is incing.

728

00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:47,280

[ash_b]: that was claiming to use facial, um, recognition software to spot fraudulent

729

00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:48,260

[ash_b]: behavior.

730

00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,760

[ash_b]: Is that a good technology? like?

731

00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,280

[ash_b]: How should we think about all? Are you guys like that technology?

732

00:39:56,774 --> 00:39:57,774

[jason_apollo_voss]: No,

733

00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,120

[ash_b]: You guys? I mean, are we, are we?

734

00:39:58,034 --> 00:40:02,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: No, yeah, yeah, exact talk. I, That's a tea ball question. That's almost

735

00:40:02,594 --> 00:40:05,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: like Jason. You're a supportive active management kind of a question.

736

00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:06,220

[ash_b]: Yeah,

737

00:40:07,234 --> 00:40:08,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: So so no, the a.

738

00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:10,560

[ash_b]: we. we have already established that bias. Here

739

00:40:10,570 --> 00:40:14,170

[sloane]: Yeah, I mean this is the. This is the unofficial title of his spotcast is the

740

00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:14,990

[sloane]: related party

741

00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:16,970

[sloane]: transaction or the related party podcast?

742

00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:16,060

[ash_b]: we are all,

743

00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,040

[ash_b]: and we have a pirate at the top that talks about all the conflicts we have, So

744

00:40:20,594 --> 00:40:24,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: Oh yeah, what? so what? we'? We're letying the bare right, which is

745

00:40:24,194 --> 00:40:28,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: better than many. Do, uh, let let's just be Uh, full confession. Um, so

746

00:40:28,914 --> 00:40:33,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: no, um, the academic literature. Sh, And it. it started Nineteen fifty

747

00:40:33,554 --> 00:40:37,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: eight, which is looking at facial takegs, body language, vocal

748

00:40:37,474 --> 00:40:40,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: intonation, All that kind of jazz and literally hundreds of these things

749

00:40:40,914 --> 00:40:44,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: have been examined Starting nineteen fifty eight and the global average

750

00:40:45,154 --> 00:40:48,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: has revealed the meta analysis, which is a study of studies is fif four

751

00:40:49,154 --> 00:40:53,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: per cent, and in investments, Uh, which is the research I did with Maria,

752

00:40:54,034 --> 00:40:57,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh, which was a resulting a journal, behavior, Fiance article in finances

753

00:40:57,714 --> 00:41:00,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: were even worse. We're just fifty one point eight percent accurate. Uh,

754

00:41:01,474 --> 00:41:05,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: when we rely on these kinds of ▁ cues, and by the way, we're even worse

755

00:41:05,794 --> 00:41:08,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: than that because we're only fifty one point eight percent accurate

756

00:41:08,834 --> 00:41:12,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: because we have an over sixty percent truth byas, So because we guess

757

00:41:12,754 --> 00:41:16,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: truth way more than we should, we' really right on the truths, but were

758

00:41:16,834 --> 00:41:22,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: really wrong on when somebody iss deceiving, Um, So anyway, uh, no, the

759

00:41:22,594 --> 00:41:26,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: facial recognition that this insurance company is using. Most likely the

760

00:41:26,514 --> 00:41:30,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: software is picking up on the facial cues. The promise is too twofold.

761

00:41:32,274 --> 00:41:37,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: Either those cues are not uniquely associated with deception or ▁ly,

762

00:41:37,874 --> 00:41:42,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: which is the bigger of the problems, or too, they are so subtle is to

763

00:41:42,514 --> 00:41:47,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: defy capturing the former. The the accused not being adgor of ▁lying is

764

00:41:47,554 --> 00:41:50,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: the bigger one. That theory of using body language, their multiple

765

00:41:51,074 --> 00:41:56,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: assumptions In the theory, one of them is that as the liars feel anxiety

766

00:41:56,194 --> 00:42:00,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: when they lie, and if we look for or we create conditions under which you

767

00:42:00,754 --> 00:42:04,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: feel greater anxiety, we create a gap between the truth teller and the

768

00:42:05,074 --> 00:42:09,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: deceiver, such that the deception is more noticeable, so I think they're

769

00:42:09,314 --> 00:42:12,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: probably. If they're picking up on anything accurately, they're picking

770

00:42:12,274 --> 00:42:16,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: up on anxiety. but anxiety is not the same thing as deception. So for

771

00:42:17,154 --> 00:42:20,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: example, in a job interview or on a podcast, if somebody's examining

772

00:42:20,834 --> 00:42:24,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: right now, if I weren't as polished as I am, have done a lot of this. Is

773

00:42:24,354 --> 00:42:27,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: it possible I would feel anxious? Yeah, is that necessarily

774

00:42:27,220 --> 00:42:28,220

[ash_b]: Yeah,

775

00:42:27,634 --> 00:42:30,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: the case? I be deceiving, No, Is

776

00:42:29,790 --> 00:42:30,790

[sloane]: Yeah,

777

00:42:30,274 --> 00:42:34,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: it true in a job interview that I might be anxious? Yes, and by the way,

778

00:42:34,594 --> 00:42:37,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: some of these technologies they are being used are used in job

779

00:42:37,314 --> 00:42:41,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: interviews? Some organizations are using ▁zoo exclusively to see if job

780

00:42:41,634 --> 00:42:45,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: candids are deceiving them. I couldn't be more disheartened Honestly, And

781

00:42:45,474 --> 00:42:47,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: then the last misuse of this

782

00:42:48,194 --> 00:42:52,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: is. Uh. Police departments have wrongfully convicted people for a long

783

00:42:52,594 --> 00:42:55,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: time because they've read these ▁ cues and they've been trained on these

784

00:42:55,634 --> 00:42:59,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: cues and they think that they are seeing deception Uh in these settings

785

00:43:00,034 --> 00:43:02,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: when what they're really reading is anxiety. And I'll tell you what if

786

00:43:02,994 --> 00:43:06,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: you've ever been questioned by the police, Uh, when we lived in New York,

787

00:43:07,554 --> 00:43:09,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: Sn. I know you live in New York. I don't know if the police have ever

788

00:43:09,794 --> 00:43:12,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: knocked on your door to ask you questions about A.

789

00:43:11,830 --> 00:43:12,830

[sloane]: they wouldn't dare,

790

00:43:13,214 --> 00:43:14,214

[jason_apollo_voss]: I'm sorry.

791

00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:15,270

[sloane]: they wouldn't dare.

792

00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,680

[ash_b]: it's tell a dare sloide's, until they di.

793

00:43:19,394 --> 00:43:22,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: What you explore that way have to explore. I'm not sure why they would'

794

00:43:22,434 --> 00:43:25,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: dare, I don't have. I don't see as a prime imment to sort of a person.

795

00:43:26,674 --> 00:43:29,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: but anyway, when theynocked on our door because there' been like a theft

796

00:43:29,794 --> 00:43:33,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: in our building, our apartment building like I got nervous like I'm like.

797

00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:33,870

[sloane]: Yep.

798

00:43:33,394 --> 00:43:36,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: Well, why are they asking me? You know I hadn't didn anything

799

00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:37,740

[ash_b]: Yeah,

800

00:43:37,154 --> 00:43:40,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: to do soway I think with the police question, you have reason to being

801

00:43:40,094 --> 00:43:41,094

[jason_apollo_voss]: anxious

802

00:43:41,290 --> 00:43:45,210

[sloane]: well, and you know one of the things that I love about you know how data works is

803

00:43:45,210 --> 00:43:50,570

[sloane]: distinct from Mo. Those other technologyno work is you know, the cultural you know.

804

00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:57,050

[sloane]: Uh, underpinning of a habit is very difficult to kind of

805

00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:04,090

[sloane]: program some aggregate level logic to encapsulate right. So like Navajo. Uh, folks,

806

00:44:04,570 --> 00:44:08,810

[sloane]: for for instance, really don't like to make eye contact on speaking. Um, you know,

807

00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:13,210

[sloane]: and like that, those there are, you know, all sorts of differences like that. I mean

808

00:44:13,530 --> 00:44:18,170

[sloane]: it. It seems a little bit like a modern phonology, you know, Like the. That's the.

809

00:44:18,250 --> 00:44:22,330

[sloane]: you know, the antiquated discredited science where people are using scull shap to

810

00:44:22,490 --> 00:44:27,130

[sloane]: denote uh, criminality or whatever, to kind of use just like a video, And assume

811

00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:31,370

[sloane]: that the robot can like magically tell. I mean, I. I. I don't know for a fact, but I

812

00:44:31,370 --> 00:44:35,050

[sloane]: would imagine that a lot of white people seem to be telling the truth and a lot a

813

00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:37,850

[sloane]: lot of black people seem not to be telling the truth on those videos.

814

00:44:37,874 --> 00:44:41,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: slow. I'm going to steal Phnology. You have just uh, revealed to me a

815

00:44:41,794 --> 00:44:45,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: very good way of explaining why body language doesn't work in one fellow

816

00:44:45,794 --> 00:44:50,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: swoop that said, Upstairs in our bathroom I, my mom just gave Da and me

817

00:44:50,274 --> 00:44:54,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: as a an anniversary or no, it was Donw's birthday. Uh, cat phronology

818

00:44:54,674 --> 00:44:58,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: little statue, which we have sitting in our powder room, which is

819

00:44:57,210 --> 00:45:00,490

[sloane]: Oh, I love that. That's amazing.

820

00:44:58,014 --> 00:44:59,014

[jason_apollo_voss]: abdorable.

821

00:45:03,314 --> 00:45:07,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: Anyway, not a believer, but, but, but, uh, I do have a phreology cat

822

00:45:07,954 --> 00:45:09,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: statue My my powder room.

823

00:45:09,370 --> 00:45:14,570

[sloane]: Yeah, like a, as a bit as a bit. Um, The. so I guess you know my last question and

824

00:45:14,650 --> 00:45:18,010

[sloane]: there's a ▁zillion things we can talk about. But like you know, I, I can imagine

825

00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:22,730

[sloane]: some ways that I could use uh data to you know, assess investment decisions right,

826

00:45:22,890 --> 00:45:26,730

[sloane]: like I've had. I mean just this like I have a c, e, O, say something in writing, and

827

00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:30,730

[sloane]: then it turned out that they don't. really. You know. I think the S think you know

828

00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:34,170

[sloane]: in terms of their actions, The you know that the statements startly translated

829

00:45:34,330 --> 00:45:37,690

[sloane]: action, And you know I could see it being useful for that. But how how do you

830

00:45:37,850 --> 00:45:43,770

[sloane]: imagine Um data being used? Uh, you know by investment managers by the public at

831

00:45:43,850 --> 00:45:45,850

[sloane]: large. Um, and like, who's your client?

832

00:45:46,434 --> 00:45:50,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, great question. When we sat down to think of use cases, Uh, we came

833

00:45:51,154 --> 00:45:56,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: up with like over forty just within investing. I think the biggest one is

834

00:45:56,514 --> 00:46:00,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: W. and this ties both parts of our conversation together. Right. We're

835

00:46:00,914 --> 00:46:04,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: talking about a consolidation within the active investment management

836

00:46:04,594 --> 00:46:09,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: business. Uh, and necessarily, those who want to remain active are going

837

00:46:09,554 --> 00:46:12,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: to. Unless they change a business model, they're going to try and c their

838

00:46:13,074 --> 00:46:17,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: expense ratio, but still deliver world class research result. So the

839

00:46:18,034 --> 00:46:22,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: first in primary use case is a Um. focusing of your human based

840

00:46:22,674 --> 00:46:27,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: intelligent resources onto the core problems. I think we would all agree

841

00:46:27,314 --> 00:46:30,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: as a pres screen on our entire investment universe. We'd like to

842

00:46:30,434 --> 00:46:33,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: eliminate all companies. They arere tempting to deceive, or

843

00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:34,150

[sloane]: Two?

844

00:46:33,554 --> 00:46:37,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: especially to lie to us. And so I think that's probably the primary use

845

00:46:37,474 --> 00:46:41,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: case in a massive time saver, and it gives you confidence of in a new way

846

00:46:41,714 --> 00:46:45,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: that your universe at least doesn't suffer from that Right now. It can

847

00:46:45,394 --> 00:46:49,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: focus on other questions, like competitive advantage. Do you know? Are

848

00:46:49,234 --> 00:46:52,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: they is the strategy? the business expanding the Moes is the management

849

00:46:53,074 --> 00:46:55,714

[jason_apollo_voss]: team, the proper management team to execute the vision of the business.

850

00:46:56,354 --> 00:47:01,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: Uh, are they properly uh, investing in things to deliver R o, i C, return

851

00:47:01,554 --> 00:47:03,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: on investor capital. Um,

852

00:47:04,594 --> 00:47:08,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: are are they uh, a good e, s, G candidate. Are they a good corporate

853

00:47:08,834 --> 00:47:11,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: actor? You know. whatever your it is, you're worrying about another one

854

00:47:12,114 --> 00:47:16,434

[jason_apollo_voss]: would be as a one time sort of uh, cleanliness test of your existing

855

00:47:16,594 --> 00:47:20,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: universe. right? The average number of portfolio holdings I think is a

856

00:47:20,354 --> 00:47:23,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: hundred and ten. Last I looked at that data, It's It's some big number

857

00:47:24,274 --> 00:47:28,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: and so I'm guessing there's something lurking in that portfolio you don't

858

00:47:28,434 --> 00:47:32,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: necessarily want in there. Um, and wouldn't you like to be able to uh,

859

00:47:32,994 --> 00:47:37,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: ask better questions of those, c, e Os, or just outright cell, but it

860

00:47:37,234 --> 00:47:41,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: could also be used as an investment, uh idea generator for a hedge fund

861

00:47:41,234 --> 00:47:44,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: that does shorting, for example, if I'm a shorter, I want to know these

862

00:47:45,634 --> 00:47:49,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: about the level of deception before the rest of the market does, and now

863

00:47:49,394 --> 00:47:53,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: it can scour a much bigger universe and turn my Uh,

864

00:47:54,354 --> 00:47:59,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: financial statement, an analyst expert, uh to to that problem based on a

865

00:47:59,714 --> 00:48:04,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: universe of probably very highly likely already committing fraud, Uh. And

866

00:48:04,194 --> 00:48:08,114

[jason_apollo_voss]: by the way, there's almost no competition for what we're doing, So you're

867

00:48:08,194 --> 00:48:11,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: go to be looking at a universe that maybe nobody else is, anyway. I could

868

00:48:11,234 --> 00:48:15,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: go on and on. Um, you know Ashby. I know you serve on a number of Uh

869

00:48:15,874 --> 00:48:19,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: boards and advised pensions. How about just examining like the board

870

00:48:19,894 --> 00:48:20,894

[jason_apollo_voss]: book, right? I?

871

00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:21,580

[ash_b]: yeah, yeah,

872

00:48:20,994 --> 00:48:24,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: I used to deliver the board book and those board books. Are you know,

873

00:48:25,074 --> 00:48:29,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: like eight hundred pages? Sometimes, uh, and I guarantee you no board

874

00:48:29,234 --> 00:48:31,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: member really reads every page. I bet they'd really like to ask

875

00:48:32,194 --> 00:48:34,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: thoughtful intelligent questions, but they don't even know where to

876

00:48:34,674 --> 00:48:38,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: begin. And so they're forced to sample that book. Usually it'd send a

877

00:48:39,074 --> 00:48:41,794

[jason_apollo_voss]: week ahead of time. They're forced to sample the book. Wouldn't it be

878

00:48:41,874 --> 00:48:45,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: nice to actually ask great questions on the key issue and the key areas?

879

00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:51,040

[ash_b]: absolutely. What a great use case. Um. you know, because a a lot of times management

880

00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,880

[ash_b]: of pension funds will inundate the board with so much information,

881

00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,800

[ash_b]: because then they can say well, you had the data, you know, and by data, I mean, just

882

00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:07,360

[ash_b]: like endless amounts of quantitative facts, and you know descriptive text around it.

883

00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,640

[ash_b]: If we could use the data algorithms in order to pinpoint deceptive text in that eight

884

00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,040

[ash_b]: hundred pages, Yeah, could really help boards spend time on things that are

885

00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:17,820

[ash_b]: important.

886

00:49:18,194 --> 00:49:22,194

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, and like in a v C, and like, everybody goes to the private market

887

00:49:22,514 --> 00:49:25,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: or ors, the public market space, which I did naturally because I used to

888

00:49:26,034 --> 00:49:29,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: certain you know, compete in public markets, But think of the value in

889

00:49:29,954 --> 00:49:34,674

[jason_apollo_voss]: public markets with bond inventures. every bond issue is unique, Um, and

890

00:49:34,754 --> 00:49:38,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: a company may issue forty bonds like you, look at the cap table. In the

891

00:49:38,514 --> 00:49:42,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: bond footnote of many publicly traded firms, there may be sixty pieces of

892

00:49:43,074 --> 00:49:46,034

[jason_apollo_voss]: debt that they have issued for some of the bigger firms. Good luck

893

00:49:46,194 --> 00:49:49,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: reading through those adventures to see what. what bad news they've

894

00:49:49,714 --> 00:49:53,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: buried in the indenture. Who knows right so. but now, look at the private

895

00:49:53,794 --> 00:49:57,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: markets, look at like v. C. look at private equity. as when you mentioned

896

00:49:57,094 --> 00:49:58,094

[jason_apollo_voss]: P,

897

00:49:57,220 --> 00:49:58,220

[ash_b]: Yeah, yeah,

898

00:49:57,794 --> 00:50:01,954

[jason_apollo_voss]: E, there is no public market mechanism. There is sometimes no auditing

899

00:50:02,114 --> 00:50:07,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: mechanism for looking at financial results. Um. And so what do you turn

900

00:50:07,314 --> 00:50:11,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: to in those situations? and by the way right now, V C. there's so much

901

00:50:11,634 --> 00:50:15,074

[jason_apollo_voss]: capital in these funds. Thank you very much. I'm grateful for that fact.

902

00:50:15,634 --> 00:50:19,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: Um. but there's so much capital there. Do you really have time to

903

00:50:19,714 --> 00:50:23,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: underwrite deals with the same level of scrutiny that you did ten years

904

00:50:23,314 --> 00:50:24,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: ago? Probably

905

00:50:23,940 --> 00:50:24,940

[ash_b]: no,

906

00:50:24,374 --> 00:50:25,374

[jason_apollo_voss]: not.

907

00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,640

[ash_b]: and they have to move so much faster. I mean, because we're the top of the market and

908

00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,280

[ash_b]: the entrepreneurs get to dictate terms in many cases, And so the Vcs are making

909

00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,320

[ash_b]: commitments in two days instead of two weeks.

910

00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:39,900

[ash_b]: And

911

00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:46,320

[ash_b]: yeah, by almost by definition I have to cut corners. And so you expect four years

912

00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,440

[ash_b]: from now that you know the next decades Fairnoe will have emerged in this time period

913

00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:52,880

[ash_b]: and we just don't know it,

914

00:50:53,474 --> 00:50:56,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: Yeah, I think that's that's a fair point, so I think it's slowly. Answer

915

00:50:56,754 --> 00:50:59,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: to question. I think there' a lots of use cases, but we havent talked

916

00:50:59,234 --> 00:51:02,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: about like auditing. Uh, we haven't talked about insurance adjusting. we

917

00:51:03,074 --> 00:51:05,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: haven't talked about content. moderational.

918

00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:13,200

[ash_b]: ex, exfriends, ex boyfriendrry,

919

00:51:08,034 --> 00:51:11,394

[jason_apollo_voss]: No, absolutely not. Yes's, a good good point. Yeah, W. one of the things

920

00:51:11,474 --> 00:51:14,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: I'm really sensitive about is that phys. Yeah, no, No, it's all good.

921

00:51:15,474 --> 00:51:19,234

[jason_apollo_voss]: Another te baall question. Um, it could really be misused right, Um,

922

00:51:19,694 --> 00:51:20,694

[jason_apollo_voss]: because

923

00:51:21,394 --> 00:51:25,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: we're trying to use sell u. S. target market, target market is a person

924

00:51:25,874 --> 00:51:27,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: making a an important

925

00:51:28,594 --> 00:51:33,154

[jason_apollo_voss]: decision at scale by, at scale. We're talking significant outcome

926

00:51:33,314 --> 00:51:36,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: relative to a business right. so that could be hundreds of thousands of

927

00:51:36,994 --> 00:51:39,874

[jason_apollo_voss]: dollars or millions of dollars. like my average straight side. Use trade

928

00:51:39,954 --> 00:51:42,914

[jason_apollo_voss]: ticket used to be like ten mill right, and that's small. That's small.

929

00:51:43,154 --> 00:51:46,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: Some firms issue like a hundred million dollar trade tickets. So you,

930

00:51:46,994 --> 00:51:50,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: it's an assist in those situations where people are wearing their big

931

00:51:50,834 --> 00:51:55,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: person pants or skirts or whatever, Um, And that's what we aim to help.

932

00:51:55,874 --> 00:52:00,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: Um, we don't want this used in divorce cases, we don't want to used uh f

933

00:52:00,994 --> 00:52:04,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: job interview settings. That's a no. No, because our whole effort is

934

00:52:04,674 --> 00:52:08,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: grounded in compassion. We're trying to make the world more truthful, so

935

00:52:08,434 --> 00:52:13,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: that we're not burned by the malfeason of something. and by the way the

936

00:52:13,394 --> 00:52:17,474

[jason_apollo_voss]: research thecentic research serves, we all lie. And so because I know

937

00:52:17,554 --> 00:52:20,754

[jason_apollo_voss]: that, based on the signi of me being a deception scientist, I have

938

00:52:20,834 --> 00:52:22,994

[jason_apollo_voss]: compassion, right, we're all deceived, we're all

939

00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:23,740

[ash_b]: Mhm,

940

00:52:23,074 --> 00:52:26,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: liyars. We, we do it one point eight times per day on average, so

941

00:52:27,174 --> 00:52:28,174

[jason_apollo_voss]: anyway,

942

00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:32,640

[ash_b]: I'm not ▁lying. When I say it was awesome having you on the free money poadcast.

943

00:52:33,290 --> 00:52:36,730

[sloane]: Yeah, absolutely fabulous, Jason, thank you so much for coming on.

944

00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,880

[ash_b]: we're going to have you back be cause we love having you here, but you know

945

00:52:38,590 --> 00:52:39,590

[sloane]: Yes,

946

00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:44,320

[ash_b]: once you're live with data and your sell subscriptions will get you back on and will

947

00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,000

[ash_b]: kind of understand the exact use cases so you can put

948

00:52:47,750 --> 00:52:48,750

[sloane]: Yep,

949

00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:48,900

[ash_b]: you out there,

950

00:52:48,674 --> 00:52:52,354

[jason_apollo_voss]: well, I would love on the hold of a mi to both of you, Um, thank you both

951

00:52:52,514 --> 00:52:55,634

[jason_apollo_voss]: for fighting a good fight. Like the Free Money podcast, You guys cover

952

00:52:55,954 --> 00:52:59,314

[jason_apollo_voss]: interesting subjects that I don't see covered elsewhere. Like usually the

953

00:52:59,394 --> 00:53:04,514

[jason_apollo_voss]: vessel, Podcas is what to invest in now or let's let's sit the fire. You

954

00:53:04,754 --> 00:53:08,594

[jason_apollo_voss]: do a firesight chat with somebody who's made money, Um, and even actually

955

00:53:08,914 --> 00:53:12,274

[jason_apollo_voss]: covered some of the nuts of bolts and some of the gritty bits of the

956

00:53:12,254 --> 00:53:13,254

[jason_apollo_voss]: business Well done.

957

00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:14,670

[sloane]: thank you.

958

00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:15,840

[ash_b]: Thank you so much, Jason.

959

00:53:15,654 --> 00:53:16,654

[jason_apollo_voss]: Of course,

960

00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:16,700

[ash_b]: All right,

961

00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:20,090

[sloane]: Yeah, and what you know, Yeah, Invest Vean would will be a a very happy early

962

00:53:20,410 --> 00:53:22,010

[sloane]: subscriber whenever you get around. Do

963

00:53:21,734 --> 00:53:22,734

[jason_apollo_voss]: all right

964

00:53:22,090 --> 00:53:23,610

[sloane]: it, and whateverever we can afford it

965

00:53:23,554 --> 00:53:27,554

[jason_apollo_voss]: co, thanks for happening, Guys say go goy and go

966

00:53:27,150 --> 00:53:28,150

[sloane]: By

967

00:53:27,854 --> 00:53:28,854

[jason_apollo_voss]: bye.

968

00:53:28,430 --> 00:53:29,430

[sloane]: thank you,

969

00:53:31,290 --> 00:53:37,450

[sloane]: I have a a great Jasonoss story. Uh that I will some raise this with which I like, I

970

00:53:37,530 --> 00:53:42,090

[sloane]: think is the story of how he came to see if a institute told from our our boss. Uh,

971

00:53:42,260 --> 00:53:43,260

[ash_b]: Yeah,

972

00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:47,050

[sloane]: The So you know Contentt, director C. If institute right, See if Institute is an

973

00:53:47,130 --> 00:53:51,930

[sloane]: incredibly conservative organization. Um, you know somebody, Uh, described it as

974

00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:55,130

[sloane]: more establishment that Goldman Sachs and I was just like. Yeah, that's probably

975

00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:56,190

[sloane]: right. Um,

976

00:53:57,290 --> 00:54:04,490

[sloane]: and uh, So Jason shows up for his interview at C F. A institute in like, uh, I. I. I

977

00:54:04,570 --> 00:54:08,010

[sloane]: forget exactly what Rob City was wearing, but it you know he hadn't shaved. He was.

978

00:54:08,170 --> 00:54:12,570

[sloane]: It wasn't wearing A to a Uh, A Perm, Or if he was ring tie, he was wearing one of

979

00:54:12,650 --> 00:54:14,170

[sloane]: his very unusual ties.

980

00:54:13,780 --> 00:54:14,780

[ash_b]: right, right,

981

00:54:14,970 --> 00:54:21,530

[sloane]: Um, and his business card is a twenty four sided, Um, like starbirs, That's circular

982

00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:26,250

[sloane]: and it says like Jason, a Pavoss on the front of it. I still, I have one of these

983

00:54:26,410 --> 00:54:30,250

[sloane]: like on my like mood board, Um, and on the back of just this balance, you know, and

984

00:54:30,250 --> 00:54:34,650

[sloane]: of course everyone else who shows up uh to interview for this job is like you know

985

00:54:35,050 --> 00:54:37,290

[sloane]: very much out of the ▁j P. Morgan mold. Uh,

986

00:54:38,810 --> 00:54:42,330

[sloane]: you know, and thank God they went with Jason. I think the whole investment profess

987

00:54:42,570 --> 00:54:46,410

[sloane]: I, I certainly am un, uh, you know, completely changed as a result of

988

00:54:43,540 --> 00:54:44,540

[ash_b]: I know

989

00:54:46,570 --> 00:54:48,170

[sloane]: getting to know that guy. Yeah,

990

00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,640

[ash_b]: I have been, too. I have to say I I've been working really close to. I mean, you know

991

00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:55,120

[ash_b]: this is the related party's poadcast. So you know, like we. I've been working with

992

00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:01,040

[ash_b]: Jason for six, six or nine months now on on this project and Ive learned so much. The

993

00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,360

[ash_b]: dude is just next level on a lot of different fronts. So and that just kind of

994

00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:10,560

[ash_b]: trickled out in the podcast where like, he's got frameworks and analogies for for

995

00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:12,800

[ash_b]: like hundreds of other things, so we got.

996

00:55:12,570 --> 00:55:16,490

[sloane]: oh my God, Yeah, and the, I mean the the book we wrote together. the C. F. a

997

00:55:16,730 --> 00:55:21,210

[sloane]: investment idea, a generation guy. There's a link on his side and on on invest. van.

998

00:55:21,850 --> 00:55:25,610

[sloane]: Um, but it. I mean, it's like I. I. I've been re reading it because it's now a part

999

00:55:25,690 --> 00:55:27,370

[sloane]: of my process and we,

1000

00:55:27,140 --> 00:55:28,140

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1001

00:55:27,530 --> 00:55:30,090

[sloane]: we went all over the place. I can't believe let us publish that thing.

1002

00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,760

[ash_b]: Well because he said he was good. It was over his dead body, right.

1003

00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:38,330

[sloane]: Whoa that that was. Uh, that was a slightly later one that was once

1004

00:55:37,940 --> 00:55:38,940

[ash_b]: Oh,

1005

00:55:38,410 --> 00:55:42,090

[sloane]: we had already. you know, like kind of broken a couple of heads. Um,

1006

00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,480

[ash_b]: but he's building stuff, which is hard

1007

00:55:45,130 --> 00:55:46,410

[sloane]: he's building stuff, which is hard.

1008

00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,480

[ash_b]: and that brings us to our de segment

1009

00:55:50,310 --> 00:55:51,310

[sloane]: Oop.

1010

00:55:53,230 --> 00:55:54,230

[sloane]: Ah,

1011

00:55:55,070 --> 00:55:56,070

[sloane]: yeah,

1012

00:55:58,090 --> 00:55:59,530

[sloane]: building stuff is hard. Uh.

1013

00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:04,000

[ash_b]: building stuff hard. This is the part of the show where we reflect on how hard it is

1014

00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:09,440

[ash_b]: to build stuff. And well, you're about to go. Let me tell you that I was laughing to

1015

00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:16,960

[ash_b]: myself that if Jason is successful, he will take the whole fake it till you make it

1016

00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:18,720

[ash_b]: world of Silicon Valley

1017

00:56:19,070 --> 00:56:20,070

[sloane]: oh. Oh, my god.

1018

00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,240

[ash_b]: and make it harder. So Jason is making it harder to build stuff. Or

1019

00:56:24,470 --> 00:56:25,470

[sloane]: Mm,

1020

00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,800

[ash_b]: maybe maybe he's making it easier for those of us to think we're building real stuff

1021

00:56:29,340 --> 00:56:30,340

[ash_b]: because

1022

00:56:29,790 --> 00:56:30,790

[sloane]: I think so.

1023

00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,880

[ash_b]: people will spot us and be like. That's not the fake stuff. That's the real stuff. So

1024

00:56:35,380 --> 00:56:36,380

[ash_b]: um,

1025

00:56:35,850 --> 00:56:39,050

[sloane]: yeah, I, I mean, I, I think so like. I. I think you know. there's like this culture

1026

00:56:39,210 --> 00:56:40,890

[sloane]: of like fake metrics or vanity

1027

00:56:40,820 --> 00:56:41,820

[ash_b]: that's right.

1028

00:56:40,970 --> 00:56:45,770

[sloane]: metrics that you know. Data seems aimed right squarely at. You know where people

1029

00:56:46,010 --> 00:56:49,290

[sloane]: like show up in like, kind of do statistical vomit, and then'd be like, Oh yeah,

1030

00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:51,610

[sloane]: therefore I'm a good investment, Um.

1031

00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,080

[ash_b]: That's a good name for either a new Startu or a band.

1032

00:56:54,730 --> 00:56:55,770

[sloane]: statistical vomit,

1033

00:56:55,620 --> 00:56:56,620

[ash_b]: Yes,

1034

00:56:55,870 --> 00:56:56,870

[sloane]: uh,

1035

00:56:58,180 --> 00:56:59,180

[ash_b]: Okay,

1036

00:56:58,430 --> 00:56:59,430

[sloane]: uh,

1037

00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,320

[ash_b]: subsidiary, free money. When we, when we really hit a big time.

1038

00:57:00,970 --> 00:57:05,930

[sloane]: yeah, exactly when we finally get our Vc investment, and uh, you know it gets so

1039

00:57:06,170 --> 00:57:09,050

[sloane]: back on the phone. Um, what's been heard this month? Um?

1040

00:57:10,090 --> 00:57:15,370

[sloane]: well, I, uh, I actually had this amazing. uh. it took this amazing decision to not

1041

00:57:15,450 --> 00:57:18,730

[sloane]: only uh, go off my anti depressant, which it turns out I'm allergic to,

1042

00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:19,500

[ash_b]: Oh,

1043

00:57:19,370 --> 00:57:23,850

[sloane]: um, but also deconstruct my office and rebuild it. Um. in the court.

1044

00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,920

[ash_b]: were those two uh decisions interlinked

1045

00:57:26,730 --> 00:57:30,330

[sloane]: I, you know, I don't think so. I, I wanted a bigger desk, Um, and this

1046

00:57:30,020 --> 00:57:31,020

[ash_b]: Okay,

1047

00:57:30,410 --> 00:57:32,010

[sloane]: one's a lot nicer. Uh,

1048

00:57:33,610 --> 00:57:38,250

[sloane]: but um, but yeah, I would say like, hypothetically and I had no control over this

1049

00:57:38,410 --> 00:57:42,170

[sloane]: because uh, unfortunately it hasn't really played into performance or anything like

1050

00:57:42,250 --> 00:57:46,410

[sloane]: that. but um, the yeah. I mean, if it turns out you're allergic to your

1051

00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:49,210

[sloane]: antiimpressant, try to not figure that out

1052

00:57:50,030 --> 00:57:51,030

[sloane]: in

1053

00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:51,180

[ash_b]: yeah,

1054

00:57:50,650 --> 00:57:52,970

[sloane]: the first in the first month of launching your business.

1055

00:57:52,740 --> 00:57:53,740

[ash_b]: yeah,

1056

00:57:53,210 --> 00:57:54,410

[sloane]: that's that's that's my thing.

1057

00:57:54,723 --> 00:59:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss,

1058

00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,520

[ash_b]: I'm sorry to hear that. How uh are have you been doing some investments with the

1059

00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,840

[ash_b]: money I gave you? I haven't. I haveve' noted that

1060

00:58:01,450 --> 00:58:04,570

[sloane]: Uh, yeah, yeah, totally totally invested it. Yeah, definitely invested

1061

00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:05,500

[ash_b]: so invested.

1062

00:58:04,650 --> 00:58:09,530

[sloane]: it. Yeah, no, uh, yeah, no, honestly, um, you know one of the things that I've been.

1063

00:58:09,690 --> 00:58:13,210

[sloane]: You know, when you start thinking about the investiging hypothesis, what's tricky

1064

00:58:13,370 --> 00:58:16,090

[sloane]: about it? I think to a lot of people as they think. Okay, so you're investing in

1065

00:58:16,070 --> 00:58:17,070

[sloane]: protein, which

1066

00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:17,580

[ash_b]: M.

1067

00:58:17,050 --> 00:58:20,650

[sloane]: is not the deal. The deal is, we're investing in stuff that doesn't do cruelty to

1068

00:58:20,730 --> 00:58:22,090

[sloane]: other stuff. Um,

1069

00:58:22,260 --> 00:58:23,260

[ash_b]: Okay,

1070

00:58:22,730 --> 00:58:29,130

[sloane]: you know, so the like it has to be, you know, not just on the net, but on the gross

1071

00:58:29,290 --> 00:58:32,810

[sloane]: addited to society in my criteria, right, Um, and

1072

00:58:32,420 --> 00:58:33,420

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1073

00:58:33,370 --> 00:58:36,570

[sloane]: you know I, what I would say is like, I mean, our benchmark is the Russell Three

1074

00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:37,630

[sloane]: thousand. We've done

1075

00:58:38,730 --> 00:58:42,650

[sloane]: quite well compared to it. Um. you know, in the in the downturn, at various points

1076

00:58:42,730 --> 00:58:46,330

[sloane]: we were, We'd opened up five percentage points of about performance on on the rustle

1077

00:58:46,180 --> 00:58:47,180

[ash_b]: my goodness,

1078

00:58:46,490 --> 00:58:51,210

[sloane]: over the first month of operations. Um, and you know, obviously final numbers will

1079

00:58:51,290 --> 00:58:56,650

[sloane]: come in later. but Um, you know the the big, S. The big takeaway so far has been

1080

00:58:56,890 --> 00:59:01,530

[sloane]: that you know. these things that don't do cruelty on a systematic level seem to have

1081

00:59:01,690 --> 00:59:03,290

[sloane]: more durable businesses, right,

1082

00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:04,640

[ash_b]: Yeah, resilient

1083

00:59:03,770 --> 00:59:07,610

[sloane]: Um, you know resilient. Yeah, it's the whole resilience theme that we keep

1084

00:59:07,380 --> 00:59:08,380

[ash_b]: Mhm,

1085

00:59:07,770 --> 00:59:08,970

[sloane]: talking about. Um,

1086

00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:09,900

[ash_b]: per.

1087

00:59:09,370 --> 00:59:10,730

[sloane]: What's been hard for you lately?

1088

00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:19,600

[ash_b]: Oh, I. I feel like Um, just being uh. I'm building something new, Um in in both at

1089

00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,560

[ash_b]: Stamford. I, I'm building like a new research program,

1090

00:59:22,790 --> 00:59:23,790

[sloane]: Hm?

1091

00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:30,400

[ash_b]: Um, and then also doing some in some of the the land of start up, building an a

1092

00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,240

[ash_b]: little research function And it's just also for me. It's it's hard, but it's a

1093

00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,280

[ash_b]: reminder of how fun it is to like dig in and do the fundamental research. You know.

1094

00:59:38,940 --> 00:59:39,940

[ash_b]: That's

1095

00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:40,190

[sloane]: Yep.

1096

00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,880

[ash_b]: what got me here and Um. And so

1097

00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:48,480

[ash_b]: building stuff is hard, but it's kind of worth it. like I, I'm publishing I, I'll

1098

00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,720

[ash_b]: maybe I'll use this segment to brag, But like I'm publishing a couple of papers this

1099

00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:57,360

[ash_b]: month that like I'm justper proud of, And it's been it. They've been the private

1100

00:59:54,163 --> 01:01:53,283

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssss,

1101

00:59:55,390 --> 00:59:56,390

[sloane]: Oh,

1102

00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,440

[ash_b]: equity paper we put out yesterday was

1103

01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:05,600

[ash_b]: coming. The portfolios resilience paper were putting out Um early next month in

1104

01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,760

[ash_b]: October, So this month when you listen to it

1105

01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:15,360

[ash_b]: it, it's uh, you know forty plus pages. It took M years to do. I have a paper with

1106

01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:21,040

[ash_b]: Alicster Barker, Um. on how investors deal with technology disruption. We've been

1107

01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,280

[ash_b]: working on it for two and a half years. It'll be coming out before, Um. twenty twenty

1108

01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:30,480

[ash_b]: two. So these things are hard and I feel like it takes a long time to do them. But

1109

01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,640

[ash_b]: when they come out you know it's like you're kind of giving birth to something so,

1110

01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,440

[ash_b]: and then sometimes you put them out, and like nine, nine people see it and then they

1111

01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:44,400

[ash_b]: never hear of it again. Um, but sometimes you know they have an effect, so yeah,

1112

01:00:44,330 --> 01:00:48,090

[sloane]: I mean that's that's really awesome and like it it. and it is like, I, honestly,

1113

01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:52,010

[sloane]: whenever my mood has been kind of unwavery, Like a little ▁jittery. or whatever.

1114

01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:55,370

[sloane]: lately I've been. I've just gone back to my spreadsheet, and that's really brought

1115

01:00:55,610 --> 01:00:57,610

[sloane]: me kind of back up. Uh, it's

1116

01:00:57,220 --> 01:00:58,220

[ash_b]: yeah,

1117

01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:01,690

[sloane]: always the. It's. It's the Adman crap. It's the. You know, it's the back and forth,

1118

01:01:01,850 --> 01:01:05,210

[sloane]: but the the research is really just a joy. Uh, you know

1119

01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,920

[ash_b]: it is fun and it's actually that's the link by the way between academia and finance.

1120

01:01:07,860 --> 01:01:08,860

[ash_b]: Like

1121

01:01:08,310 --> 01:01:09,310

[sloane]: so true.

1122

01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,720

[ash_b]: people who are are really great investors. They spend their life doing research. It's

1123

01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,560

[ash_b]: just they don't publish it. you know they. They make use of it in an investment

1124

01:01:16,660 --> 01:01:17,660

[ash_b]: strategy. So

1125

01:01:17,290 --> 01:01:20,170

[sloane]: Yeah, they just sit in there skyscrapers and cackle about it.

1126

01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:24,640

[ash_b]: Halloween episode coming up.

1127

01:01:25,270 --> 01:01:26,270

[sloane]: Whoop. sorry.

1128

01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:27,760

[ash_b]: Oh no. that's great. it's badd.

1129

01:01:28,410 --> 01:01:33,210

[sloane]: it's time. Um. it's s for dear Ashby. This is the segment where we beg you to review

1130

01:01:33,370 --> 01:01:36,410

[sloane]: our podcast If you've listened this long, you know how good it is. Um,

1131

01:01:37,450 --> 01:01:42,010

[sloane]: you know, But, And and it's also the segment Uh, more importantly, where we answer

1132

01:01:42,330 --> 01:01:46,490

[sloane]: questions from you, and it's very easy to send us questions, Um, free money pot at

1133

01:01:46,570 --> 01:01:51,050

[sloane]: Gil dot Com At Free money for twenty sixty nine on Twitter. All of these things, all

1134

01:01:51,130 --> 01:01:53,130

[sloane]: of these ways you can just I. Also, you

1135

01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:54,100

[ash_b]: There's many ways.

1136

01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:57,530

[sloane]: can connect with us on. Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you want to connect to this Mm.

1137

01:01:54,723 --> 01:03:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1138

01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:00,160

[ash_b]: mail us a letter to a appal box, which you can find on the website. Maybe

1139

01:02:01,050 --> 01:02:04,810

[sloane]: I. I, yeah. yeah. I mean if you could find an a, if you could find a mailing Gu

1140

01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,360

[ash_b]: if there's a peel box on the W. The website Bail it.

1141

01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:05,630

[sloane]: address up.

1142

01:02:07,690 --> 01:02:11,770

[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, send us some chocolates. Um, you know, and if you're if you happen to be

1143

01:02:11,850 --> 01:02:14,090

[sloane]: hanging out on the astroplane, just connect with us

1144

01:02:13,780 --> 01:02:14,780

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1145

01:02:14,250 --> 01:02:18,650

[sloane]: commune. you know, Um, the first ▁qu. but the me. Oh God, not the matter.

1146

01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,920

[ash_b]: Metaverse come say his hard.

1147

01:02:24,170 --> 01:02:27,930

[sloane]: So the first question for this speak is I think this is a really interesting. Uh

1148

01:02:27,990 --> 01:02:28,990

[sloane]: behavioral

1149

01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:29,740

[ash_b]: I do too.

1150

01:02:29,610 --> 01:02:32,010

[sloane]: question, Um, retail investors,

1151

01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:32,720

[ash_b]: I think my answer will surprise you.

1152

01:02:32,910 --> 01:02:33,910

[sloane]: Oh, really,

1153

01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:34,900

[ash_b]: Mm. Ask it.

1154

01:02:34,330 --> 01:02:39,130

[sloane]: Mm, retail investors have readily bought the dip in crypto in a way that they

1155

01:02:39,290 --> 01:02:43,770

[sloane]: struggle to do with stocks. Um, do you have any pet theories as to why this is

1156

01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:49,440

[ash_b]: I actually think buying the dip is super easy. Like if especially

1157

01:02:48,090 --> 01:02:49,930

[sloane]: Hm. That is a surprising answer.

1158

01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:53,680

[ash_b]: Yeah, especially if you do no fundamental analysis.

1159

01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:00,560

[ash_b]: So the world of crypto is like, almost by definition a speculative thing.

1160

01:03:01,210 --> 01:03:03,530

[sloane]: Yeah, you can't do fundamental analysis. Really? Yeah,

1161

01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,840

[ash_b]: Yeah, there's no cash flows. Like what? what are you studying you? You know, it's the

1162

01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,880

[ash_b]: same thing that people do around currencies. Uh, you know, except at least

1163

01:03:08,590 --> 01:03:09,590

[sloane]: yep.

1164

01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,480

[ash_b]: when people are modeling currencies, they're the underlying economies and central

1165

01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,400

[ash_b]: bank policies and things like that. here. this is literally like

1166

01:03:17,340 --> 01:03:18,340

[ash_b]: price was high.

1167

01:03:19,420 --> 01:03:20,420

[ash_b]: Now price is low.

1168

01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:23,040

[ash_b]: Let's buy. And

1169

01:03:22,630 --> 01:03:23,630

[sloane]: yup,

1170

01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:28,800

[ash_b]: and so I find like, even in my own life when I've been in a speculative mood, Um,

1171

01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:34,320

[ash_b]: when markets drop, I'll be like O. let's put money in there. you know like, but when

1172

01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:40,080

[ash_b]: it becomes individual stocks, which I think is this, Um. user's question, You get a

1173

01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:43,760

[ash_b]: lot. It gets a lot more complicated. You start to think to yourself. Oh, is there

1174

01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:45,840

[ash_b]: something fundamental about this? You

1175

01:03:45,830 --> 01:03:46,830

[sloane]: M. Mhm.

1176

01:03:45,920 --> 01:03:50,720

[ash_b]: know, Is it did the like? I'm not doing research. It's like you know our guest who is

1177

01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,600

[ash_b]: like. I don't do research in stocks. I can't remember her day.

1178

01:03:52,970 --> 01:03:55,370

[sloane]: Oh, yeah, the iconic Liz. Yeah,

1179

01:03:54,723 --> 01:05:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1180

01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,360

[ash_b]: Liz. Liz was like research.

1181

01:03:57,940 --> 01:03:58,940

[ash_b]: Um.

1182

01:03:58,730 --> 01:04:02,650

[sloane]: Yeah, read the longest one. or, or I find the longest one and then I don't read it

1183

01:04:02,630 --> 01:04:03,630

[sloane]: and I buy the stock.

1184

01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:08,640

[ash_b]: Yeah, exactly. Lizz's proxy was length of research. not actually doing the research.

1185

01:04:08,790 --> 01:04:09,790

[sloane]: Yup,

1186

01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:15,520

[ash_b]: Um, So that's a little bit like this world right. And and so when I'm you know,

1187

01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,280

[ash_b]: playing around in the markets and like doing index funds, I see a big drop. I'll put

1188

01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,720

[ash_b]: all rebalance. I'll get in there, but if you own, you know, g, e or something in the

1189

01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,200

[ash_b]: stock drops, you're definitely wondering. Oh, is there something going on here?

1190

01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:30,750

[sloane]: Yeah, what I miss?

1191

01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,840

[ash_b]: Like what did I miss? Because I know I missed everything 'cause I don't actually do

1192

01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:38,400

[ash_b]: any work. you know. Whereas stuff like this, it's like there's nothing to miss, you

1193

01:04:37,940 --> 01:04:38,940

[ash_b]: know,

1194

01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:39,630

[sloane]: Yep,

1195

01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:44,160

[ash_b]: And so I think that's what's going on and why people seem to buy the dip on these um

1196

01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:48,080

[ash_b]: crypto assets Because it's impossible to do fundamentals and it's

1197

01:04:47,910 --> 01:04:48,910

[sloane]: Hm,

1198

01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:52,880

[ash_b]: highly likely that they're not missing anything that they didn't know before because

1199

01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:53,710

[sloane]: Hm.

1200

01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,600

[ash_b]: there was nothing there to begin with, But ummp,

1201

01:04:55,530 --> 01:04:56,970

[sloane]: that's a really compelling theory.

1202

01:04:56,860 --> 01:04:57,860

[ash_b]: hm, hm.

1203

01:04:57,290 --> 01:05:01,290

[sloane]: Um, y, you know. I. I. my. I. I guess my. My take on it was that like, you know,

1204

01:05:01,370 --> 01:05:05,370

[sloane]: Because it comes as this, like incredibly speculative asset. you know you.

1205

01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:06,560

[ash_b]: that's very similar thought though that's

1206

01:05:06,570 --> 01:05:07,610

[sloane]: Yeah, it is. that's true.

1207

01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,800

[ash_b]: that's kind of where I'm going, you know.

1208

01:05:08,730 --> 01:05:12,970

[sloane]: Yeah. yeah. yeah. I guess it's trick is like, if you, if you have it identified as

1209

01:05:13,690 --> 01:05:15,690

[sloane]: like a speculation at the outset,

1210

01:05:15,860 --> 01:05:16,860

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1211

01:05:16,570 --> 01:05:18,490

[sloane]: Um, you know, Yeah, and then

1212

01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:22,800

[ash_b]: like if you're if fine, If you buying bitcoin Mi, maybe you can start to make the

1213

01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:26,560

[ash_b]: case as a store of value. But if you're like, how many or athorium or whatever,

1214

01:05:26,350 --> 01:05:27,350

[sloane]: Mm.

1215

01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,520

[ash_b]: like many of these other coins that are out there,

1216

01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,600

[ash_b]: people are still trying to figure out what to do with them. you know like

1217

01:05:33,550 --> 01:05:34,550

[sloane]: yeah,

1218

01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:38,960

[ash_b]: it is by almost definition like, Um, a speculation.

1219

01:05:39,590 --> 01:05:40,590

[sloane]: yup

1220

01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:45,520

[ash_b]: You're I don't know. Yeah, I like I said Y, there is no fundamental analysis that I

1221

01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:51,840

[ash_b]: know of yet. Like, have we seen the fundamental like tool kit? Is there an

1222

01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,000

[ash_b]: intelligent crypto investor book coming out with cigar butts?

1223

01:05:54,723 --> 01:07:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1224

01:05:55,130 --> 01:05:59,930

[sloane]: you know. F. Funny you should ask, uh you. I. I mean, like there. There are some

1225

01:05:57,300 --> 01:05:58,300

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1226

01:06:00,410 --> 01:06:03,610

[sloane]: like pretty cool ways that you could because you know you can think about, for

1227

01:06:03,690 --> 01:06:07,770

[sloane]: instance, like in def, right, like there are all of these like decentralized finance

1228

01:06:04,980 --> 01:06:05,980

[ash_b]: yeah,

1229

01:06:08,010 --> 01:06:13,290

[sloane]: protocols that purport to be about Uh, facilitating the transformation of one

1230

01:06:13,370 --> 01:06:19,050

[sloane]: cryptoacident to another, Um, You, you usually taking a more mainstream crypto. And

1231

01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:15,680

[ash_b]: Hm. okay,

1232

01:06:19,450 --> 01:06:23,210

[sloane]: uh, transmuting it into something that could be invested aggressively instead of a

1233

01:06:23,290 --> 01:06:27,690

[sloane]: yield pool or something like that. And and in that case, um, a lot of the

1234

01:06:27,690 --> 01:06:31,850

[sloane]: fundamentals are explicitly observable because you can watch how many people use the

1235

01:06:31,930 --> 01:06:36,970

[sloane]: protocol to transmit the, the, The, the vanilla crypto into the the Whatever, And

1236

01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:40,570

[sloane]: then you can see like Okay, Protocol One is being used twenty five times more

1237

01:06:40,650 --> 01:06:47,290

[sloane]: frequently than protocol, too, Um, And is that in line with pricing or not? Um, You

1238

01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:47,520

[ash_b]: yeah, fascinating.

1239

01:06:47,370 --> 01:06:52,090

[sloane]: know, but, but like you know, that's that's pretty. I mean that's like it is. I

1240

01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:51,120

[ash_b]: but at' the beginning

1241

01:06:52,090 --> 01:06:54,810

[sloane]: mean, but basically what you're doing there is you're valuuing the New York Stock

1242

01:06:54,970 --> 01:07:00,250

[sloane]: Exchange based on volume. you know. Like, which is how you would do it. Uh, you

1243

01:06:55,940 --> 01:06:56,940

[ash_b]: H.

1244

01:07:00,330 --> 01:07:05,130

[sloane]: know, but admittedly incomplete. Um, but yeah, it's that

1245

01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:08,080

[ash_b]: yeah, you're not. You're not actually connecting into the underlying economy. you're

1246

01:07:07,860 --> 01:07:08,860

[ash_b]: You're still

1247

01:07:08,430 --> 01:07:09,430

[sloane]: exactly

1248

01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:12,240

[ash_b]: operating at the level of the abstract financial market,

1249

01:07:12,730 --> 01:07:17,290

[sloane]: exactly You're still playing with abstractions, Um li. the next question, um,

1250

01:07:17,180 --> 01:07:18,180

[ash_b]: Hm.

1251

01:07:18,330 --> 01:07:21,210

[sloane]: M macquets, I feel like I need to like. Have a have like a

1252

01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,080

[ash_b]: Oh, is our Boston part of the show?

1253

01:07:22,250 --> 01:07:23,770

[sloane]: mackets, Yeah, uh, yeah,

1254

01:07:23,820 --> 01:07:24,820

[ash_b]: No, you know what

1255

01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:31,450

[sloane]: markets have been swornen recently, I can't. I. I, every time I try to do an accent

1256

01:07:31,530 --> 01:07:32,650

[sloane]: on the show I get in trouble.

1257

01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:32,720

[ash_b]: Museum of finance

1258

01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,080

[ash_b]: I live. Remember, I lived in Boston for two, uh

1259

01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,320

[ash_b]: two years, and these are things I heard on the street which are now part of my

1260

01:07:38,410 --> 01:07:39,450

[sloane]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1261

01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:48,560

[ash_b]: repertoire. A mom grabbing Um, her little child and saying No, Y, new lot.

1262

01:07:43,050 --> 01:07:53,290

[sloane]: the Museum of finites, it's the

1263

01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:53,840

[ash_b]: No, you're not. No, you're not in case I need to translate, and obviously Museum of

1264

01:07:53,580 --> 01:07:54,580

[ash_b]: finance.

1265

01:07:54,723 --> 01:09:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1266

01:07:55,210 --> 01:07:57,450

[sloane]: best. the Museum of finance, definitely, um,

1267

01:07:59,610 --> 01:08:05,210

[sloane]: um. So the markets have ensuthing because of the wories associated with high debt

1268

01:08:05,450 --> 01:08:09,290

[sloane]: levels in the Chinese property development sector have come home to roose.

1269

01:08:09,020 --> 01:08:10,020

[ash_b]: Mm,

1270

01:08:09,770 --> 01:08:12,250

[sloane]: This year is as old as time. Do

1271

01:08:11,940 --> 01:08:12,940

[ash_b]: Yes,

1272

01:08:12,330 --> 01:08:16,250

[sloane]: you remember the first time that you heard somebody worry about Chinese property

1273

01:08:16,230 --> 01:08:17,230

[sloane]: development? Deb.

1274

01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,840

[ash_b]: it is his oldest time. I feel like at my entire professional career Is this question

1275

01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:27,120

[ash_b]: went to the core of my being because when I saw the question I was like, Holy cow.

1276

01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,520

[ash_b]: You're right. Everybody has been talking about this for

1277

01:08:32,820 --> 01:08:33,820

[ash_b]: twenty years.

1278

01:08:33,830 --> 01:08:34,830

[sloane]: Yep,

1279

01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,360

[ash_b]: Uh, this is going to take down the globallye. This got definitely takeed down the

1280

01:08:37,440 --> 01:08:41,360

[ash_b]: Chinese economy. These, the, especially the state own banks, Um, which are holding

1281

01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:43,920

[ash_b]: the bag here. But then it's going to take on the global economy,

1282

01:08:43,990 --> 01:08:44,990

[sloane]: yep, yep.

1283

01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:46,560

[ash_b]: and uh, what's so funny is Um.

1284

01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:55,120

[ash_b]: I can remember when Central Huujin, which is a a state owned entity, which was, is

1285

01:08:55,280 --> 01:09:00,480

[ash_b]: like largely responsible. the' best I can tell, just to bail out banks in China, Um,

1286

01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:05,760

[ash_b]: In two thousand five, it was in the business of bailing out banks, Um,

1287

01:09:06,660 --> 01:09:07,660

[ash_b]: and

1288

01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:12,000

[ash_b]: then I think it was part of the state administration of foreign exchange. This was

1289

01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:18,400

[ash_b]: even before of the C. i. C came into being when C. I. C took over. They moved Central

1290

01:09:18,480 --> 01:09:23,040

[ash_b]: Hojen under the China Investment Corporation because it owns so much of the state

1291

01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:27,360

[ash_b]: banks. It was like a holding company at that point because it had done so much baling

1292

01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:34,240

[ash_b]: outing. Um. But in case you thought that was over, like in twenty nineteen, Hugh End

1293

01:09:34,480 --> 01:09:41,360

[ash_b]: did a fourteen billion bailo of Heng Feng Bank, and all of these bailouts go back

1294

01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,560

[ash_b]: down into the real, the real estate economy, and like the overheating that's going on

1295

01:09:46,260 --> 01:09:47,260

[ash_b]: there,

1296

01:09:47,110 --> 01:09:48,110

[sloane]: yep.

1297

01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:53,120

[ash_b]: Um. And you know the fact that like the way they strilize the currency, I think

1298

01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:59,280

[ash_b]: they're issuing local debt. It's all this stuff right. that like powers forward, the

1299

01:09:54,723 --> 01:11:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1300

01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:04,400

[ash_b]: the biggest real state boom in the history of the universe. And I say universe,

1301

01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:06,880

[ash_b]: because we don't know if there's aliens, but on Earth, at least

1302

01:10:07,530 --> 01:10:12,010

[sloane]: I mean if if there are aliens, I doubt that they are engaged in as aggressive the

1303

01:10:12,090 --> 01:10:15,770

[sloane]: scale of property development. Un. unless they'. I mean they, they would literally

1304

01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:14,160

[ash_b]: I think that fast

1305

01:10:15,930 --> 01:10:18,970

[sloane]: have to be a multiplanetary species. Uh,

1306

01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:21,120

[ash_b]: to beat us. Yeah, be cause what the Chinese are number one.

1307

01:10:20,010 --> 01:10:23,610

[sloane]: y. yeah, to Yeah. to beat the Chinese at building property.

1308

01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:30,560

[ash_b]: I agree. I agree. Yeah, I've read the expanse. I know about the uh proto molecule.

1309

01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,600

[ash_b]: You got to have the proto molecule to beat the giess.

1310

01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:36,560

[ash_b]: Somebody knows what I' talk about out there.

1311

01:10:36,810 --> 01:10:40,330

[sloane]: Yeah, yeah, it's a great. I mean, Jeff Basis is a favorite T V show. By

1312

01:10:40,180 --> 01:10:41,180

[ash_b]: Oh, is it

1313

01:10:40,330 --> 01:10:44,730

[sloane]: the way. Yeah, he actually saved the expanse from being cancelled. Uh, and brought

1314

01:10:44,890 --> 01:10:46,410

[sloane]: it on to Amazon. Uh,

1315

01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:47,440

[ash_b]: that's so funny? It is

1316

01:10:47,190 --> 01:10:48,190

[sloane]: it's like

1317

01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:48,880

[ash_b]: a great series of books.

1318

01:10:49,370 --> 01:10:51,290

[sloane]: it. Yeah, I, I've only watched the show because

1319

01:10:51,420 --> 01:10:52,420

[ash_b]: Oh, yeah,

1320

01:10:51,450 --> 01:10:54,010

[sloane]: I'm you know, I'm a P. I'm a piece of trash.

1321

01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:55,680

[ash_b]: it's still a pretty good show. I've seen it too. Yeah.

1322

01:10:57,210 --> 01:10:59,850

[sloane]: Um, Okay, so we have a lot of Chinese questions. I

1323

01:10:59,850 --> 01:11:03,370

[sloane]: guess Ch. you know. Yeah, we get Uh, China on the mind,

1324

01:10:59,920 --> 01:11:01,360

[ash_b]: what's up? What's up? Yeah,

1325

01:11:03,260 --> 01:11:04,260

[ash_b]: hm.

1326

01:11:03,930 --> 01:11:07,770

[sloane]: Um, Hong Kong police. hopely, should I have forgot about this question? Hong Kong

1327

01:11:07,930 --> 01:11:13,770

[sloane]: police have arrested activists for trying to incite subversion by distributing

1328

01:11:13,930 --> 01:11:18,330

[sloane]: Eminem chocolates. If you were to use candy to incite subversion, is this the one

1329

01:11:18,330 --> 01:11:21,610

[sloane]: you're choose? and by the way, the person who sent this question included a link to

1330

01:11:21,610 --> 01:11:24,890

[sloane]: the article, which is a a good best practice for these insane questions?

1331

01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,280

[ash_b]: yes, please do that going forward, Uh readers.

1332

01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,520

[ash_b]: I love this. I have to tell you, I've had a sneaking suspicion for a long time, and

1333

01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:41,680

[ash_b]: this allows me to reveal it. Um, I think the candy bar Mounds was an as asop by the

1334

01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:43,520

[ash_b]: C, I, A. I think

1335

01:11:43,190 --> 01:11:44,190

[sloane]: Hm,

1336

01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:48,160

[ash_b]: the candy bar mounds has created far more pain on the earth than pleasure.

1337

01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:53,440

[ash_b]: How many children have reached into their Halloween candy bag and pulled out of

1338

01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:55,440

[ash_b]: mounds and been horrified.

1339

01:11:54,723 --> 01:13:53,043

[mediaboard_sounds]: Ssssssssssssss.

1340

01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,200

[ash_b]: So if I was going to incite

1341

01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:06,000

[ash_b]: subversion, I would replace old kidy bars with mounds candy bars, and you would see

1342

01:12:05,780 --> 01:12:06,780

[ash_b]: people

1343

01:12:06,010 --> 01:12:08,970

[sloane]: hm, mm,

1344

01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:12,880

[ash_b]: so mad when they realize this delicious candy bar you gave them was filled with some

1345

01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:16,320

[ash_b]: random gross Cocan nuut, not even good coconut.

1346

01:12:16,730 --> 01:12:20,970

[sloane]: yup, yup, I. I love this. so this implies heavily that the Chinese Act activists are

1347

01:12:21,050 --> 01:12:22,970

[sloane]: distributing eminems because they're shitty.

1348

01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,800

[ash_b]: Oh, oh, I don't know what their logic is. I thought I was in. Try to incite you know,

1349

01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:32,480

[ash_b]: a Yeah, disbelief in the government or something. I don't know what they.

1350

01:12:32,810 --> 01:12:34,650

[sloane]: I, I don't. I mean, I don't know why they're doing it, uh,

1351

01:12:36,510 --> 01:12:37,510

[sloane]: um,

1352

01:12:37,700 --> 01:12:38,700

[ash_b]: Oh, Oh, so you're

1353

01:12:38,270 --> 01:12:39,270

[sloane]: but

1354

01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:42,240

[ash_b]: saying? what is the capitalist thing that I would give people that would prove they

1355

01:12:42,300 --> 01:12:43,300

[ash_b]: love it so much.

1356

01:12:43,550 --> 01:12:44,550

[sloane]: mm,

1357

01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:45,440

[ash_b]: Is that what the question is?

1358

01:12:44,410 --> 01:12:49,210

[sloane]: I mean, I don't know. it's not my question, Um, the. I, I like. I guess you know I,

1359

01:12:49,130 --> 01:12:53,450

[sloane]: I would kind of go like if I was trying to you know, get everybody you know hooked

1360

01:12:53,550 --> 01:12:54,550

[sloane]: on my, my

1361

01:12:54,420 --> 01:12:55,420

[ash_b]: Oh,

1362

01:12:54,810 --> 01:12:57,850

[sloane]: mind, my way of seeing the world. you know, like if we were to have like,

1363

01:12:57,620 --> 01:12:58,620

[ash_b]: yeah,

1364

01:12:58,090 --> 01:13:01,930

[sloane]: I mean, portable Alpa, obviously is not available at sufficient scale to insighter

1365

01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,680

[ash_b]: M Hunter Grandbar,

1366

01:13:02,090 --> 01:13:06,170

[sloane]: revolution, because it's you know, Y hundred grand baar, Mm,

1367

01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:07,920

[ash_b]: very delicious and capitalist.

1368

01:13:08,410 --> 01:13:09,770

[sloane]: that's a. I mean, there you go.

1369

01:13:09,540 --> 01:13:10,540

[ash_b]: Yeah,

1370

01:13:09,930 --> 01:13:13,050

[sloane]: Let's yeah, I mean I, I would go with a skiddle too. I mean, like,

1371

01:13:12,820 --> 01:13:13,820

[ash_b]: Mm,

1372

01:13:13,290 --> 01:13:17,690

[sloane]: I think Tasing the rainbow, You know, especially if you haven't partaken before. I

1373

01:13:17,770 --> 01:13:20,970

[sloane]: mean that would be enough to change anybody's mind. Hm.

1374

01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:25,360

[ash_b]: very good. Have you ever had smarties from Canada that are like emine Ms, but they

1375

01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:26,480

[ash_b]: don't selld them in America.

1376

01:13:28,010 --> 01:13:29,210

[sloane]: I don't think I have

1377

01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:32,160

[ash_b]: Ah, for the Canadian listeners out there, Um

1378

01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:33,870

[sloane]: real heads. No,

1379

01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:38,640

[ash_b]: smarties which also exist in the U. K. It's a chocolate candy that looks in fields

1380

01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:43,200

[ash_b]: like Eminem's They never brought to America, but in all the other parts of the

1381

01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:48,320

[ash_b]: English speaking world, they're like as popular as Eminem's They're

1382

01:13:47,910 --> 01:13:48,910

[sloane]: Hm.

1383

01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:53,440

[ash_b]: everywhere. they're called smarties. Look it up. People in America think smarties of

1384

01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:54,720

[ash_b]: these little candy things.

1385

01:13:54,750 --> 01:13:55,750

[sloane]: the chalk things.

1386

01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:59,760

[ash_b]: Yeah, no, no, smarties everywhere else are like better Eminem.

1387

01:13:57,290 --> 01:14:01,450

[sloane]: Yeah, Yeah, like like, Oh, Oh, you like smarty', The the worst candy

1388

01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:05,760

[ash_b]: Yeah, so in America, maybe that's what happened. people are like more smarties. Hell,

1389

01:14:01,610 --> 01:14:08,810

[sloane]: of the entire worldm. Yeah, the brand is poisoned.

1390

01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:07,280

[ash_b]: No, those things are terrible.

1391

01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,160

[ash_b]: Yeah, now look it up. These are chocolate covered candies

1392

01:14:12,950 --> 01:14:13,950

[sloane]: Hm

1393

01:14:13,440 --> 01:14:16,880

[ash_b]: and they're better than Eminm's. You heard it here first.

1394

01:14:15,770 --> 01:14:20,330

[sloane]: sounds pretty good. Um, we got. uh, we have one last segment which is, of course,

1395

01:14:20,650 --> 01:14:24,330

[sloane]: whatever ones. everyone's everyone's waiting around for. I mean

1396

01:14:23,580 --> 01:14:24,580

[ash_b]: Yeah, I know that

1397

01:14:25,850 --> 01:14:29,370

[sloane]: it's like I know you hear. I know you feel that applause every time you step out of

1398

01:14:29,440 --> 01:14:33,200

[ash_b]: they're like. What garden tip of the week? It's a big one.

1399

01:14:29,530 --> 01:14:31,210

[sloane]: your garden. What's your garden tip for the week?

1400

01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:35,920

[ash_b]: It's juju B season

1401

01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:43,760

[ash_b]: and I planted the juju be fruit tree in my backyard in the middle of Coved, Because I

1402

01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:48,960

[ash_b]: was like what grows without water. Basically that was the logic. I was like highly

1403

01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,640

[ash_b]: drought tolerant trees, please. And

1404

01:14:52,230 --> 01:14:53,230

[sloane]: Hm.

1405

01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:57,920

[ash_b]: it's almost like I organized it because I think the jujubi tree originally cubs from

1406

01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:02,000

[ash_b]: China, So it's almost like this is a segment we planned, but we did not.

1407

01:15:01,450 --> 01:15:04,890

[sloane]: Well what I actually googled it because I was like. Is he making that up?

1408

01:15:06,810 --> 01:15:12,890

[sloane]: Um, The. and I see that it's you, Uh, the Indian and the Chinese juj be, uh,

1409

01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,880

[ash_b]: Yes, so I think I have the Chinese juju be, I think

1410

01:15:14,630 --> 01:15:15,630

[sloane]: mm,

1411

01:15:14,940 --> 01:15:15,940

[ash_b]: I seem to recall,

1412

01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:16,830

[sloane]: mm,

1413

01:15:16,480 --> 01:15:20,320

[ash_b]: and they tell you on the internets. this is where we're getting into the tip part of

1414

01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,920

[ash_b]: the show That this uh tastes like apples.

1415

01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:30,560

[ash_b]: And so it encourages you when you read that to maybe pick it a little early because

1416

01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:35,440

[ash_b]: you see it Uh, when you get an apple and it searchs to get brown spots on it. You're

1417

01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:36,800

[ash_b]: like Mm. I don't want to eat

1418

01:15:36,670 --> 01:15:37,670

[sloane]: mm, yeah,

1419

01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:43,200

[ash_b]: that apple jujupies. You got to plough through until that entire jujibi is a dark

1420

01:15:43,020 --> 01:15:44,020

[ash_b]: brown

1421

01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:49,520

[ash_b]: and then you eat it and I have to say I've I was eating them way too early

1422

01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,960

[ash_b]: and I finally forgot about my tree. For two weeks. I went down there and I was like

1423

01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:56,320

[ash_b]: Damn it, everything's brown

1424

01:15:57,360 --> 01:16:01,200

[ash_b]: because I, apparently I don't pay enough attention to this stuff, but I pulled them

1425

01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:05,040

[ash_b]: off and I was like Wow, It still feels great. It's not squishy or anything. I took a

1426

01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:09,520

[ash_b]: bite. It is like an apple was combined with brown sugar.

1427

01:16:09,910 --> 01:16:10,910

[sloane]: Oh, it rules.

1428

01:16:10,000 --> 01:16:11,840

[ash_b]: It is one of the best

1429

01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:18,880

[ash_b]: fruits I think I have had in a very long time, and my wife informed me not twenty two

1430

01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:23,520

[ash_b]: minutes ago when I was talking about this that if you want to get a bag of jujib' at

1431

01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:24,800

[ash_b]: whole foods is over eight dollars.

1432

01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:26,350

[sloane]: Oh, wow.

1433

01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:27,360

[ash_b]: Yeah, super

1434

01:16:27,150 --> 01:16:28,150

[sloane]: Wow.

1435

01:16:27,500 --> 01:16:28,500

[ash_b]: expensive fruit.

1436

01:16:29,130 --> 01:16:33,530

[sloane]: Also like can I say, has one of the best Latin names of any plant that I've seen

1437

01:16:33,460 --> 01:16:34,460

[ash_b]: Hi me with it.

1438

01:16:33,930 --> 01:16:35,610

[sloane]: ▁zsiphus Motania,

1439

01:16:36,740 --> 01:16:37,740

[ash_b]: Us.

1440

01:16:38,010 --> 01:16:42,170

[sloane]: But I mean like I, it doesn't get much better than that. As far as I'm concerned,

1441

01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:43,520

[ash_b]: hu. I wonder if it's from Mauritious,

1442

01:16:43,950 --> 01:16:44,950

[sloane]: Um,

1443

01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:45,920

[ash_b]: Interesting. interesting,

1444

01:16:45,610 --> 01:16:50,250

[sloane]: we have Mauritus, not just for Asia Pacific dinosaur offshore funds anymore.

1445

01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:51,840

[ash_b]: No, for the ginger bee,

1446

01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,040

[ash_b]: All right, That was a log show

1447

01:16:54,330 --> 01:16:59,050

[sloane]: Well with that that's the show. I got nothing. I have nothing left. You took it all

1448

01:16:58,420 --> 01:16:59,420

[ash_b]: un exhausted

1449

01:16:59,343 --> 01:17:00,343

[mediaboard_sounds]: I'm looking

1450

01:17:00,110 --> 01:17:01,110

[sloane]: by.

1451

01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:03,360

[ash_b]: by. We do love you.

1452

01:17:03,383 --> 01:17:04,383

[mediaboard_sounds]: Is

1453

01:17:06,003 --> 01:17:08,243

[mediaboard_sounds]: more than remember, Then I go ra on a

1454

01:17:09,943 --> 01:17:10,943

[mediaboard_sounds]: mo.