1
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Hamish and I, we're in
Sydney at the moment.

2
00:00:01,830 --> 00:00:06,320
Um, we're actually again from the
real Proclima Built To Last studio.

3
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We're at headquarters.

4
00:00:08,350 --> 00:00:11,319
Um, Hamish and I got to share
a single bed last night.

5
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It was cute.

6
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We did not.

7
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Did you really?

8
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We definitely did not.

9
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I was a little swoof.

10
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It was, it was very- Tons of
stuff in the building industry

11
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it's very explicit when we
were actually booking that we

12
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were having separate rooms.

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Very- Separate rooms,

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same bed

15
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… 
very, very explicit.

16
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Yeah.

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Very, very explicit.

18
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But no, I went to the gym this
morning with, um, our boss, Dan.

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Oh.

20
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It was good to get up.

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He's still walking.

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He's,

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00:00:33,759 --> 00:00:34,669
yeah, well,

24
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I mean, he's, it was a light session given
it was with Dan, so I feel pretty good.

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I slept in.

26
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Yeah, me too.

27
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Um, actually, funnily enough, I
was walking past, went on a nice

28
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walk through Coogee and, uh, came
across a few passive houses there.

29
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Saw a lot of… Actually, yeah,
there was one, it was in Coogee.

30
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It was, I think the f- ironically, the
builder was called The Mindful Builder.

31
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Yep.

32
00:00:59,989 --> 00:01:01,059
Or is it- Or is it Mindful Building?

33
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Mindful Building, yeah.

34
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Mindful Building.

35
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Is

36
00:01:02,839 --> 00:01:03,970
there any legal dispute

37
00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:05,390
there?

38
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I think- No, I actually think that
when we were looking at names that we

39
00:01:08,099 --> 00:01:10,030
noticed that he actually had this name.

40
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It was

41
00:01:10,276 --> 00:01:10,789
a bit laughable, isn't it?

42
00:01:10,989 --> 00:01:14,380
Uh, and we're like, "Oh, okay. Well, maybe
we should do The Mindful Builder Podcast."

43
00:01:14,380 --> 00:01:14,594
I think that's what we thought.

44
00:01:14,594 --> 00:01:15,009
Yeah, it didn't work.

45
00:01:15,010 --> 00:01:15,310
Yeah.

46
00:01:15,310 --> 00:01:15,330
Yeah.

47
00:01:15,330 --> 00:01:18,879
So anyway, you might be
wondering who today's guest is.

48
00:01:18,889 --> 00:01:21,710
So Dave is from Proclima.

49
00:01:22,129 --> 00:01:24,610
What's your email job description?

50
00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:29,709
Email job description is
technical, uh, innovation engineer.

51
00:01:29,779 --> 00:01:29,959
Yeah.

52
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:30,620
I should know that better.

53
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,779
So what is really cool is, uh,
Dave, you're originally a carpenter.

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Mm-hmm.

55
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And you've sort of transitioned into
a, what I reckon is a really cool job,

56
00:01:41,989 --> 00:01:45,019
but you, you're probably a little bit
more… Well, Dan's obviously got a

57
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carpentry background, but you've gone
through from understanding university

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degree to building science and stuff.

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But-

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Hey, why don't, why don't we let Dave-

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Yeah, but where I'm gonna go is like- Yeah

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let's go back to the start.

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Just tell us who

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you are.

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Yeah.

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Um, like you said, I did carpentry
straight out of high school, just the

67
00:02:01,970 --> 00:02:06,739
classic apprenticeship into cert four, and

68
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just- Always, always Sydney-based?

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Yeah.

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00:02:08,799 --> 00:02:08,949
Yeah.

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So, well, Sydney-based, and then I went
to, when I finished my apprenticeship,

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00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:14,589
moved to Canada for a couple years.

73
00:02:14,589 --> 00:02:14,800
Oh, where

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were you in Canada?

75
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:16,649
Vancouver mainly.

76
00:02:16,709 --> 00:02:17,009
When?

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00:02:17,479 --> 00:02:20,798
Uh, for f- Longer ago than I like.

78
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Uh, 2014

79
00:02:22,828 --> 00:02:25,948
Oh, well, mate, I was
there 2003, 2004, 2005.

80
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Yeah, right.

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So, yeah.

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00:02:27,348 --> 00:02:28,068
Building, or?

83
00:02:28,407 --> 00:02:29,878
Uh, lot of snowboarding.

84
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Yeah, so- I

85
00:02:30,698 --> 00:02:32,008
was in primary school Lot
of, lot of snowboarding.

86
00:02:33,018 --> 00:02:34,517
Uh, lots of mountain bike riding.

87
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I went there for a season,
stayed for three years.

88
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Yeah.

89
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Incredible.

90
00:02:37,498 --> 00:02:37,957
It happens, right?

91
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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Incredible.

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Yeah, so did a little bit
of building there, not much.

95
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Yeah.

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00:02:42,018 --> 00:02:42,797
Similar to you.

97
00:02:42,877 --> 00:02:48,998
Um, came back, just subbied for
a while, and honestly, got kinda

98
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sick how money just turns to
water when you're trying to subby.

99
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Like, you sort of wake up one day
with a big fat bank account, then

100
00:02:57,697 --> 00:03:02,357
the bills come through from the
supplier, from your insurance, you

101
00:03:02,357 --> 00:03:05,928
know, and it's just like, yeah, it
got hard to sort of keep on top of.

102
00:03:06,668 --> 00:03:12,927
So I got pretty fed up, and then,
yeah, just decided to go to uni, do

103
00:03:12,938 --> 00:03:17,937
a physics degree, and I found this
job, and sort of the perfect match.

104
00:03:17,947 --> 00:03:17,967
Wow.

105
00:03:18,297 --> 00:03:19,597
When did you do your physics degree?

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So-

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2020 to '23

108
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Sort of end of 2023 So

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was it a broad physics degree?

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Applied physics.

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So

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what's that?

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Bachelor of Science in Applied Physics.

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So you're going through really anything.

115
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You could have done any avenue

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. 
Yeah, I had dreams of building rockets
actually, but the more you try to get

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away from the building industry, the more
it drags you back in, so here we are.

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Yeah, I mean, it, it, it makes
sense though that you're now here.

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Mm. Yeah, I did laugh when I
saw- You're really relevant

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the job description.

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I was like, "Wow, that is the
weirdest perfect combination." Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah,

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did you ever think that your, that your
carpentry and your n- new education

125
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would, would come together like that?

126
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Not this specifically

127
00:04:03,079 --> 00:04:03,329
. 
Yeah.

128
00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:03,680
Yeah.

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00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:04,959
How long have you been pro climber now?

130
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:06,810
Uh, just a little over 12 months.

131
00:04:06,810 --> 00:04:07,080
Yep.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, right, that's the perfect-

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It's like, yeah, it's y- I think this,
and the whole, I can see where this

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episode's gonna kinda go, and it's
gonna give people the confidence that,

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um, carpentry can be a starting point.

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Totally.

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00:04:20,590 --> 00:04:23,459
Um- It is the starting point, and
I love it, as a starting point

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00:04:23,459 --> 00:04:25,070
for almost any career, I think.

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00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:25,199
Do

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00:04:25,229 --> 00:04:26,909
you still call yourself a carpenter?

143
00:04:27,829 --> 00:04:31,529
Oh, I like to gas myself up and say
builder 'cause I did my Cert IV, but

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yeah.

145
00:04:32,499 --> 00:04:32,529
Okay.

146
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Yeah, no, absolutely.

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That's just like

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calling a passive house a passive
house if it's not certified, though.

149
00:04:36,469 --> 00:04:37,649
Yeah . Yeah.

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00:04:37,649 --> 00:04:38,009
True that.

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00:04:38,009 --> 00:04:38,539
True that.

152
00:04:38,569 --> 00:04:39,210
Ding, ding, ding.

153
00:04:39,539 --> 00:04:43,210
Um, uh, you said money turns
to water when you're a subby.

154
00:04:44,110 --> 00:04:44,440
Yeah.

155
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:45,979
I really wanna go into that conversation.

156
00:04:45,979 --> 00:04:46,149
I've written

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00:04:46,149 --> 00:04:46,859
that down too.

158
00:04:47,029 --> 00:04:48,739
I really struggled with
that, to be honest.

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00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:50,680
It was one of the hardest points.

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00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,529
There's, like, a big transition when
you're a apprentice, then you become a

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00:04:55,529 --> 00:04:59,629
carpenter, and maybe you do your Cert
IV, and you're subbing, and it's like

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00:04:59,639 --> 00:05:04,279
where's that transition from doing your
own work to subbing from someone else?

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00:05:05,060 --> 00:05:08,409
And as you're transitioning, that's
when it's really hard to sort of keep

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on top of your finances, and, you know,
just even make heads or tails whether

165
00:05:13,969 --> 00:05:15,560
you're making money or losing money.

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00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,539
It sort of gets a… It, it
was a lot for me, to be honest.

167
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Is this hard?

168
00:05:20,409 --> 00:05:20,779
Um-

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00:05:20,789 --> 00:05:23,939
And were you, were you hourly rate
subbing, or were you quoting projects?

170
00:05:23,989 --> 00:05:24,269
Or quoting-

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00:05:24,270 --> 00:05:27,640
So it was that transition between hourly
rate subbing to quoting my own projects-

172
00:05:27,860 --> 00:05:28,470
Yeah, okay … that I struggled with.

173
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So, like, you'd get a big, you know,
$30,000 deck, pergola sort of thing.

174
00:05:33,669 --> 00:05:33,999
Yep.

175
00:05:34,070 --> 00:05:35,929
Which probably wouldn't even
get you footings these days,

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00:05:35,930 --> 00:05:38,619
but that is even- Or you fuel.

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00:05:38,909 --> 00:05:39,779
Yeah, or you fuel.

178
00:05:39,779 --> 00:05:40,209
Exactly.

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00:05:41,210 --> 00:05:49,474
The realities of sort of- That paying
the suppliers, paying, you know, for

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00:05:49,474 --> 00:05:53,144
the concrete that comes in, all that,
and all the bills that go out, and then

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00:05:53,144 --> 00:05:54,724
you get lump sum and it's just managing.

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00:05:54,794 --> 00:05:55,564
I wasn't good at it.

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00:05:55,644 --> 00:05:55,874
Yeah.

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00:05:55,894 --> 00:06:00,283
You can see how quickly a tradie
ends up with a brand new Ram ute

185
00:06:00,284 --> 00:06:04,263
and a boat, a jet ski, and then
go, "Ah, fuck, got no money."

186
00:06:04,423 --> 00:06:07,477
It looks so easy from
the outside in, you know?

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00:06:07,477 --> 00:06:07,673
Yeah.

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00:06:07,673 --> 00:06:12,044
And, like, you don't… Especially
when you see young fellas in their P

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00:06:12,044 --> 00:06:16,164
plates with this brand new Land Cruiser,
like, leveraging all this money.

190
00:06:16,164 --> 00:06:17,843
You're like, "Oh, don't do it." Yeah.

191
00:06:17,843 --> 00:06:19,843
I mean, forget about the boat,
forget about the jet ski.

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00:06:19,843 --> 00:06:20,903
Like, it's just the car.

193
00:06:20,924 --> 00:06:23,963
Like, you know, you're absolutely
right, 19, 20-year-olds driving

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00:06:23,963 --> 00:06:25,383
around in a $60,000 car.

195
00:06:25,424 --> 00:06:25,884
Yeah.

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00:06:25,963 --> 00:06:28,613
Like, how can you even possibly get ahead?

197
00:06:28,713 --> 00:06:29,243
Yeah.

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00:06:29,303 --> 00:06:31,103
Yeah, the… And we were talking
about this this morning with

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00:06:31,103 --> 00:06:32,674
Dan, and we were coming here.

200
00:06:32,704 --> 00:06:37,724
Like, there seems to be this really…
Like, our, our tax system for so long

201
00:06:37,754 --> 00:06:40,774
has benefited buying these types of cars.

202
00:06:40,884 --> 00:06:41,284
Mm.

203
00:06:41,514 --> 00:06:46,364
And w- if you go to Europe, go to UK,
like, everyone's driving around in vans.

204
00:06:46,413 --> 00:06:46,953
Yeah, exactly.

205
00:06:46,983 --> 00:06:51,564
Which I, I understand are as
cool, but practically speaking,

206
00:06:51,604 --> 00:06:52,843
like, I had a van for a bit.

207
00:06:53,573 --> 00:06:53,613
Better.

208
00:06:53,623 --> 00:06:56,214
You don't have to tow a trailer
around, you just open up the,

209
00:06:56,914 --> 00:06:57,814
open up the- It's more secure.

210
00:06:58,014 --> 00:07:01,763
Dan and I argue about this all the
time, the van versus ute discussion.

211
00:07:02,053 --> 00:07:03,625
But like, how is it holding-
Do, do you know what?

212
00:07:03,625 --> 00:07:05,393
This, Dan dr- Dan drives
around in a freaking Mustang.

213
00:07:05,403 --> 00:07:05,683
Yeah.

214
00:07:05,693 --> 00:07:07,633
Like, he really can't, like,
throw rocks in glass houses.

215
00:07:07,633 --> 00:07:07,803
But

216
00:07:07,803 --> 00:07:08,983
the Ram, like, what is the point?

217
00:07:09,013 --> 00:07:10,023
That's not

218
00:07:10,343 --> 00:07:10,403
a ute.

219
00:07:10,403 --> 00:07:12,623
Okay, so I, I tow a lot.

220
00:07:12,854 --> 00:07:16,064
So at one stage- Mm. Sure … I
had a 79 Series, so, you know,

221
00:07:16,143 --> 00:07:19,203
I justified in my mind that I
towed two or three times a week.

222
00:07:19,223 --> 00:07:22,873
You know, I've since got rid of that
and now I'm in a BYD Shark, and I

223
00:07:22,873 --> 00:07:23,713
don't, I don't tow much anymore.

224
00:07:23,723 --> 00:07:23,983
Yeah.

225
00:07:24,043 --> 00:07:24,403
Yeah,

226
00:07:24,403 --> 00:07:24,543
right.

227
00:07:24,973 --> 00:07:25,483
And-

228
00:07:25,503 --> 00:07:26,703
Have you felt you don't need to as well?

229
00:07:26,713 --> 00:07:27,863
Like, you've realized,
"Oh, don't need it."

230
00:07:27,873 --> 00:07:30,983
Well, I think the, the idea
was that because I had the

231
00:07:30,983 --> 00:07:32,683
car, it was up to me to tow.

232
00:07:33,113 --> 00:07:35,188
And now it's like we- we've
got a, um, like, Isuzu truck.

233
00:07:35,188 --> 00:07:38,383
Mm. Which, all right, we'll
just get Jamie to pick it up.

234
00:07:38,833 --> 00:07:39,013
Yeah,

235
00:07:39,013 --> 00:07:39,853
yeah, yeah.

236
00:07:39,853 --> 00:07:40,113
Totally.

237
00:07:40,123 --> 00:07:40,193
You know, that makes more sense.

238
00:07:40,193 --> 00:07:42,014
So, uh, look, I don't know.

239
00:07:42,023 --> 00:07:46,373
This is me, uh, after 20-odd
years in the industry saying this.

240
00:07:46,384 --> 00:07:48,703
Mm. And it's easy for me to kind
of look back and go, "Well, I

241
00:07:48,704 --> 00:07:49,913
should've done that 10 years ago."

242
00:07:49,973 --> 00:07:50,333
Yeah.

243
00:07:50,373 --> 00:07:54,254
But I know 10 years ago I wanted
to have the Amarok or whatever, so.

244
00:07:54,263 --> 00:07:54,293
Put

245
00:07:54,294 --> 00:07:55,003
your hand in front of the camera.

246
00:07:55,134 --> 00:07:56,973
So yeah, I get, I get it.

247
00:07:56,973 --> 00:07:57,624
I understand.

248
00:07:57,744 --> 00:07:58,204
Yeah.

249
00:07:58,204 --> 00:08:00,793
It's, it's, it's a learning experience
that like, you know, when you're

250
00:08:00,794 --> 00:08:04,233
young and you start getting that first
paycheck, you're like… And then the,

251
00:08:04,453 --> 00:08:06,564
the car salesman gets in your ear.

252
00:08:06,564 --> 00:08:08,344
He's like, "Oh yeah, you can
afford these repayments."

253
00:08:08,344 --> 00:08:08,735
And- What

254
00:08:08,735 --> 00:08:09,517
do car salesmen know?

255
00:08:09,517 --> 00:08:10,713
How do they know your bank account?

256
00:08:11,533 --> 00:08:13,604
Few th- few things on this.

257
00:08:13,623 --> 00:08:14,324
Oh, no, no, hang on.

258
00:08:14,333 --> 00:08:18,173
I just want to l- everyone's got this
misconception that it's a tax deduction.

259
00:08:18,173 --> 00:08:18,953
No, it's your money.

260
00:08:19,134 --> 00:08:19,244
Mm.

261
00:08:19,253 --> 00:08:21,703
Like, you still… Yeah,
it is a tax deduction.

262
00:08:21,873 --> 00:08:24,233
100% it is, but you
still need to pay for it.

263
00:08:24,273 --> 00:08:24,693
Yeah.

264
00:08:24,733 --> 00:08:27,333
The money still needs to be in
your bank account to pay for it.

265
00:08:27,643 --> 00:08:30,183
It's only when you kinda get
over a certain threshold-

266
00:08:30,443 --> 00:08:30,973
100%

267
00:08:30,973 --> 00:08:32,344
… 
that that actually makes sense.

268
00:08:32,604 --> 00:08:32,824
Yeah.

269
00:08:32,824 --> 00:08:35,573
You know, and again, I'm realizing
this now, 'cause you know, I've got

270
00:08:35,574 --> 00:08:39,584
some high purchase, um, stuff through
the business, and like right now

271
00:08:39,584 --> 00:08:40,743
my motivation is to pay them off.

272
00:08:40,803 --> 00:08:41,133
Mm.

273
00:08:41,273 --> 00:08:41,993
And then not have them

274
00:08:43,022 --> 00:08:43,272
Yeah.

275
00:08:43,302 --> 00:08:44,832
Anyway, you, you live, you're living the-

276
00:08:44,862 --> 00:08:47,142
Can we, can we just,
it's very important part.

277
00:08:47,142 --> 00:08:48,952
Everyone wants to reduce tax.

278
00:08:48,952 --> 00:08:51,622
Oh, and they gloat, "I didn't pay any
tax." I tell you what, if you didn't

279
00:08:51,622 --> 00:08:53,102
pay tax, it means you made no money.

280
00:08:53,102 --> 00:08:53,552
Yeah.

281
00:08:53,552 --> 00:08:53,962
Yeah.

282
00:08:54,241 --> 00:08:57,341
Like, it's very, like, the higher
you… If you say, "Oh, I had to

283
00:08:57,342 --> 00:09:00,632
pay 100 grand in tax last year,"
it means you did pretty well.

284
00:09:00,731 --> 00:09:01,161
Mm. Good for you.

285
00:09:01,182 --> 00:09:06,741
You should be wanting to have 100, 200,
$300,000 in end of year tax payments

286
00:09:06,741 --> 00:09:08,002
because it means you're profitable.

287
00:09:08,051 --> 00:09:08,241
Yep.

288
00:09:08,291 --> 00:09:08,311
Yeah.

289
00:09:08,541 --> 00:09:14,692
Um, good, when you say that money goes to
water, um, anyone out there that has this

290
00:09:14,701 --> 00:09:17,151
problem, um, Profit First is a great book-

291
00:09:17,312 --> 00:09:17,562
Yep

292
00:09:17,571 --> 00:09:18,011
… 
on this.

293
00:09:18,042 --> 00:09:21,692
Uh- Okay … what it does, and it's
also, it's called Profit First Attorneys.

294
00:09:22,322 --> 00:09:25,631
It sets your bank account into, like,
five or six different bank accounts.

295
00:09:25,632 --> 00:09:29,272
So when, for, I have this, so money comes
into one account, it's my income account.

296
00:09:29,331 --> 00:09:32,812
Mm. Then I have a materials and
subcontractors, I have an OPEX account, I

297
00:09:32,812 --> 00:09:36,642
have a owner contributions, a GST, a tax.

298
00:09:37,132 --> 00:09:38,202
Staff liabilities

299
00:09:40,722 --> 00:09:41,462
Yes, wages.

300
00:09:41,462 --> 00:09:42,612
Yeah, I have, I call wages.

301
00:09:42,612 --> 00:09:42,882
Yep.

302
00:09:42,942 --> 00:09:43,271
Yep.

303
00:09:43,322 --> 00:09:45,421
So yeah, so yeah, that's… I
was just thinking in my head

304
00:09:45,421 --> 00:09:46,161
what I have in my account.

305
00:09:46,161 --> 00:09:46,411
But yeah.

306
00:09:46,411 --> 00:09:46,582
Yeah.

307
00:09:46,632 --> 00:09:49,781
So what happens, you work out the
percentage of what is required based

308
00:09:49,781 --> 00:09:54,562
on your, your average P&L, and you
go, "Well, last year I spent roughly

309
00:09:54,582 --> 00:09:56,861
51% on materials," for example.

310
00:09:56,921 --> 00:09:58,082
Mm. That goes into that account.

311
00:09:58,112 --> 00:09:59,541
I spent 20% on wages.

312
00:09:59,821 --> 00:10:00,791
That goes in that account.

313
00:10:00,882 --> 00:10:01,202
10%- It's

314
00:10:01,322 --> 00:10:02,671
basically automating everything as much as

315
00:10:02,702 --> 00:10:02,832
you can.

316
00:10:02,832 --> 00:10:04,741
Yeah, you can, I mean, most banks
you can't automate the payment- So,

317
00:10:04,881 --> 00:10:06,056
yeah … but you've got to do it manually.

318
00:10:06,056 --> 00:10:08,761
But the good thing about manual,
actually thinking about these things.

319
00:10:08,821 --> 00:10:09,661
So, um-

320
00:10:09,721 --> 00:10:12,081
We do it, we do it very similarly, just
to kind of close this out, and 'cause

321
00:10:12,081 --> 00:10:13,371
I think this is good information.

322
00:10:13,372 --> 00:10:14,681
So we've got an operating account.

323
00:10:14,801 --> 00:10:14,992
Yeah.

324
00:10:15,061 --> 00:10:17,002
So all my money goes into there.

325
00:10:17,341 --> 00:10:20,622
As soon as that hits, as soon as
a, um, uh, an invoice comes in,

326
00:10:21,111 --> 00:10:22,681
I divide that full amount by 11.

327
00:10:22,852 --> 00:10:26,371
Now, I know that that's 10%, so
I'm taking the full 10% of GST out

328
00:10:26,372 --> 00:10:27,751
and putting it in a GST account.

329
00:10:28,051 --> 00:10:31,551
Now, for people who know business,
you never pay the full 10%.

330
00:10:31,692 --> 00:10:34,941
Mm. You know, it's usually
somewhere between 3 to 5 or 6%

331
00:10:34,942 --> 00:10:35,742
that you're actually paying.

332
00:10:35,771 --> 00:10:35,851
Yeah.

333
00:10:35,852 --> 00:10:39,091
By the time you offset it with subbies and
stuff coming in, that's what it lands on.

334
00:10:39,421 --> 00:10:42,852
But I know at any time I've got more money
in that account that I know needs to be

335
00:10:42,852 --> 00:10:43,012
there.

336
00:10:43,021 --> 00:10:44,071
It's like a fire account too.

337
00:10:44,261 --> 00:10:49,191
But then once I've taken that 10% off,
I then divide the next number by 17%,

338
00:10:49,361 --> 00:10:51,051
which I know is what my overheads are.

339
00:10:51,391 --> 00:10:54,091
Mm. And I put that overhead, and
I've, I've got an overheads account

340
00:10:54,132 --> 00:10:59,152
which pays me, which pays my VAs,
which pays cars, which pays my, um,

341
00:10:59,232 --> 00:11:04,348
contract, um, my pre-construction
manager I then make sure that every

342
00:11:04,348 --> 00:11:07,218
single payroll, the I- IOS comes out.

343
00:11:07,218 --> 00:11:11,678
So super, your PAYG for your t- your team,
and it goes into a different account.

344
00:11:11,807 --> 00:11:12,067
Mm.

345
00:11:12,108 --> 00:11:16,428
So I've always got money in these
other accounts to pay those baseline,

346
00:11:16,828 --> 00:11:20,757
um, requirements for the business,
and then I know that the number that's

347
00:11:20,757 --> 00:11:24,887
in that pr- um, project operating
account is to operate projects.

348
00:11:25,347 --> 00:11:27,517
All the other stuff has been
taken out and it's taken care of.

349
00:11:27,528 --> 00:11:30,787
So super is actually becoming, I know
this is going off track, you have to pay

350
00:11:30,788 --> 00:11:32,648
it each time you pay wages coming up.

351
00:11:32,907 --> 00:11:33,677
Yeah, yeah.

352
00:11:33,688 --> 00:11:33,947
So the next-

353
00:11:33,987 --> 00:11:35,387
Which is actually not a bad thing, to be

354
00:11:35,387 --> 00:11:37,107
honest with you … No, it's
actually small little payments,

355
00:11:37,117 --> 00:11:39,088
so it's not like you can pay it
in the quarter or in the year.

356
00:11:39,088 --> 00:11:39,228
Yeah,

357
00:11:39,228 --> 00:11:40,958
see, I didn't even
realize that wasn't- Ab-

358
00:11:40,958 --> 00:11:41,727
And look, what- … the

359
00:11:41,908 --> 00:11:42,617
standard, right?

360
00:11:42,617 --> 00:11:42,828
Yeah

361
00:11:42,867 --> 00:11:45,538
… 
while we're talking about, you
know, little business tips, um,

362
00:11:45,577 --> 00:11:47,327
I pay my BAS quarterly- Yeah

363
00:11:47,327 --> 00:11:49,417
because I know that I've always
got money in there And your AIS

364
00:11:49,417 --> 00:11:50,152
monthly, is

365
00:11:50,152 --> 00:11:50,397
it?

366
00:11:50,397 --> 00:11:52,757
Yeah, but you can actually
pay your BAS monthly.

367
00:11:52,837 --> 00:11:52,857
Yeah.

368
00:11:53,287 --> 00:11:57,778
So if you're not as good as paying- Yeah
… your BAS and you're kind of always sort

369
00:11:57,778 --> 00:12:00,557
of scraping the bottom of the barrel to
pay it, you can actually do it monthly.

370
00:12:00,607 --> 00:12:00,927
Yeah.

371
00:12:00,938 --> 00:12:02,567
Which makes it a little bit
easier for your cash flow.

372
00:12:02,567 --> 00:12:02,737
And

373
00:12:02,737 --> 00:12:06,917
people might be like, "Oh, it's my money.
Why would I pay the ATO?" Fuck yeah.

374
00:12:07,507 --> 00:12:07,898
You know what?

375
00:12:08,088 --> 00:12:08,148
You can't, you know what?

376
00:12:08,148 --> 00:12:09,188
You're earning money … It's
not your m- it's not your money.

377
00:12:09,188 --> 00:12:09,318
You, you're n- You're not gonna
make any interest off it … And you

378
00:12:09,727 --> 00:12:09,947
ne-

379
00:12:10,587 --> 00:12:13,468
and this is why I s- personally split
it up, and I'm digressing totally

380
00:12:13,468 --> 00:12:14,167
here but- No, this is important

381
00:12:14,167 --> 00:12:14,727
I think it's a good,

382
00:12:14,727 --> 00:12:18,127
good conversation … like, because
it's the, you know, it's that transition

383
00:12:18,127 --> 00:12:23,227
between being on the books making X
amount and then, like, you know, going

384
00:12:23,227 --> 00:12:26,217
out on your own, and everyone wants
to do it but no one knows how to- Yeah

385
00:12:26,317 --> 00:12:27,397
… 
take these steps- Do not talk this

386
00:12:27,397 --> 00:12:28,757
stuff … and break this down-
You're not, you're not talking

387
00:12:28,757 --> 00:12:29,218
like this.

388
00:12:29,248 --> 00:12:29,438
Yeah.

389
00:12:29,517 --> 00:12:29,617
You

390
00:12:29,617 --> 00:12:29,927
know what?

391
00:12:29,928 --> 00:12:31,958
We've got, uh, some power
saws in the background.

392
00:12:31,958 --> 00:12:32,587
Let's just deal with it.

393
00:12:32,597 --> 00:12:34,208
We're, we're-
Yeah … recording on location.

394
00:12:34,407 --> 00:12:37,757
But I think, you know, I look at that
money that's in there as not my money.

395
00:12:38,007 --> 00:12:38,707
Mm. It's spent money.

396
00:12:38,707 --> 00:12:38,947
I l- But

397
00:12:38,947 --> 00:12:39,487
it's not your money

398
00:12:39,528 --> 00:12:42,367
… 
I look at the money that's in
that operating account, and that's

399
00:12:42,367 --> 00:12:43,627
the money that I can operate on.

400
00:12:43,858 --> 00:12:48,370
Mm. And we've seen- Uh, this isn't
just a builder problem or tradie.

401
00:12:48,390 --> 00:12:52,650
Like, we know architects that have
engineers that have had this problem that

402
00:12:52,660 --> 00:12:56,699
haven't paid their BAS and tax, and that's
the first thing the government flags.

403
00:12:56,750 --> 00:12:57,060
Yeah.

404
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:58,930
Um, and they're now no longer here.

405
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,510
There's a reason, so it is a massive
thing that you need to consider.

406
00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:01,559
It

407
00:13:01,740 --> 00:13:04,450
serves you well when the government
can see that you are paying

408
00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:07,769
your BAS on time and your IAS
on time- Yeah … all the time.

409
00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:07,990
Mm.

410
00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:10,050
Like, that's just- Probably get away with
a little, few more things if you're paying

411
00:13:10,050 --> 00:13:12,449
everything to the- Yeah … if they're
seeing money coming through each month-

412
00:13:12,619 --> 00:13:12,839
Yeah

413
00:13:12,859 --> 00:13:13,949
… 
they ain't gonna be on after you.

414
00:13:14,090 --> 00:13:17,020
Anyway, that- Yeah … that's, uh,
that's more for builder business

415
00:13:17,020 --> 00:13:18,600
101 for- Yeah … for today.

416
00:13:18,830 --> 00:13:23,400
So, um, but that doesn't take
away from carpentry becoming the,

417
00:13:23,879 --> 00:13:25,059
the focal point of what you did.

418
00:13:25,199 --> 00:13:25,389
Yeah.

419
00:13:25,490 --> 00:13:30,950
And I think a really good point
is that f- want, say 20 years ago,

420
00:13:31,260 --> 00:13:33,249
if you're a carpenter, the only
option was then become a builder.

421
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:34,189
Maybe a building surveyor.

422
00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:35,799
That, that, that was- That

423
00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:38,279
was the only op- not the only
option, but it was the most

424
00:13:38,279 --> 00:13:39,859
profitable option, I, I think.

425
00:13:39,869 --> 00:13:45,389
Like, y- I saw a lot of my, the builders
I worked for as an apprentice be able to

426
00:13:45,389 --> 00:13:48,949
flip houses and make a good living out of
it, and like, it's, it's, it was set up

427
00:13:48,949 --> 00:13:54,590
a little bit differently for tradies to
succeed to a certain extent, I feel like.

428
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:56,570
Whereas now it's a lot harder.

429
00:13:56,739 --> 00:13:58,329
Physics degree at uni.

430
00:13:58,449 --> 00:13:58,729
Mm-hmm.

431
00:13:58,889 --> 00:13:59,469
Three years?

432
00:14:00,019 --> 00:14:00,779
Three years, yeah.

433
00:14:00,849 --> 00:14:02,149
How long were you a chippy before that?

434
00:14:02,929 --> 00:14:05,669
Uh, including the
apprenticeship, about 10 years.

435
00:14:05,739 --> 00:14:06,280
Yeah, okay.

436
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:06,319
Yeah.

437
00:14:06,319 --> 00:14:06,769
Yeah,

438
00:14:06,789 --> 00:14:08,279
so in, in the industry for a bit.

439
00:14:08,359 --> 00:14:08,919
Yeah.

440
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:10,670
So then d- what did you
do post physics degree?

441
00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:11,650
Was it straight into Proclima?

442
00:14:12,249 --> 00:14:13,420
Yeah, tried to get a job.

443
00:14:13,489 --> 00:14:14,219
It wasn't easy.

444
00:14:14,279 --> 00:14:20,762
Like I said, I had sort of, um- Uh,
I was doing a internship at the uni

445
00:14:20,762 --> 00:14:26,172
in optics, and then was just looking
for any sort of physics role, but

446
00:14:26,172 --> 00:14:27,801
everyone wants you to do a master's-

447
00:14:27,962 --> 00:14:28,391
Yeah

448
00:14:28,992 --> 00:14:32,941
… 
PhD, and I'm just too old to keep
going to uni and be a student, so.

449
00:14:32,941 --> 00:14:32,964
What,

450
00:14:32,964 --> 00:14:32,986
what

451
00:14:32,986 --> 00:14:35,032
were you doing for work
while you were studying?

452
00:14:35,422 --> 00:14:39,141
Uh, my f- my friend owns a sheet
metal fabrication business.

453
00:14:39,182 --> 00:14:39,382
Yeah.

454
00:14:39,392 --> 00:14:40,362
I would just give him a hand.

455
00:14:40,392 --> 00:14:40,902
Yeah, okay.

456
00:14:40,912 --> 00:14:40,942
I s-

457
00:14:40,952 --> 00:14:43,641
Stuff like that, cash jobs
for carpentry friends.

458
00:14:43,652 --> 00:14:43,792
Like, yeah.

459
00:14:43,792 --> 00:14:44,101
Yeah.

460
00:14:44,141 --> 00:14:49,292
Well, it's probably young kid, they're
not sure what they wanna do, and they

461
00:14:49,292 --> 00:14:50,481
wanna go to uni and do something.

462
00:14:50,611 --> 00:14:52,871
Why not do a three, four-year
carpentry apprenticeship, become

463
00:14:52,872 --> 00:14:56,261
a bit of a handyman, handywoman,
and then go to uni, and you can

464
00:14:56,262 --> 00:14:57,321
earn some good money on the side?

465
00:14:57,481 --> 00:14:58,542
I think it's such a good idea.

466
00:14:58,562 --> 00:15:01,972
Like, like we were talking about,
went to Canada, but, like, you

467
00:15:01,972 --> 00:15:04,811
can live anywhere in the world
and you have a valuable skill.

468
00:15:04,861 --> 00:15:05,101
Yeah.

469
00:15:05,121 --> 00:15:05,141
No.

470
00:15:05,231 --> 00:15:09,891
It gives you this absolute freedom to be
able to, you know, move to any city in the

471
00:15:09,891 --> 00:15:11,622
country and earn a good living, you know?

472
00:15:11,622 --> 00:15:13,191
It's really empowering.

473
00:15:13,201 --> 00:15:17,711
And then develop your own assets as well
when you eventually get to that point.

474
00:15:17,711 --> 00:15:18,891
It's… I love it.

475
00:15:19,281 --> 00:15:19,361
Yeah.

476
00:15:19,361 --> 00:15:20,331
It's such a good skill to have.

477
00:15:20,332 --> 00:15:20,502
Yeah.

478
00:15:20,502 --> 00:15:23,441
And do you still, are you
still pretty active now on, you

479
00:15:23,442 --> 00:15:24,642
know, trying to swing a hammer?

480
00:15:24,791 --> 00:15:25,091
Yeah.

481
00:15:25,692 --> 00:15:26,131
Trying to.

482
00:15:26,131 --> 00:15:26,151
Yeah.

483
00:15:26,872 --> 00:15:31,992
So, nah, I've recently picked up
a place, so yeah, demoing that.

484
00:15:32,082 --> 00:15:32,422
Oh, yeah,

485
00:15:32,461 --> 00:15:32,751
lovely.

486
00:15:32,811 --> 00:15:32,891
Yeah,

487
00:15:32,921 --> 00:15:33,741
firing it well.

488
00:15:33,751 --> 00:15:34,262
It's good.

489
00:15:34,791 --> 00:15:36,932
Um, so your job at Pro Clima.

490
00:15:37,101 --> 00:15:37,291
Yeah.

491
00:15:38,471 --> 00:15:38,691
What

492
00:15:38,692 --> 00:15:40,801
was… Did you know who Pro Clima

493
00:15:41,621 --> 00:15:41,721
were before this?

494
00:15:42,152 --> 00:15:43,162
Uh, no.

495
00:15:43,751 --> 00:15:45,262
Did you know anything about
Passive House or high performance

496
00:15:45,262 --> 00:15:45,362
home?

497
00:15:45,362 --> 00:15:45,881
No.

498
00:15:45,942 --> 00:15:55,552
So I often say Uh, you know, as recently
as January before I started here, sorry

499
00:15:55,552 --> 00:15:58,902
to my mate, but I wrapped his house in
foil thinking I was doing him a favor.

500
00:15:59,532 --> 00:16:05,262
Um, and then, you know, like starting
here, learning here is just like,

501
00:16:05,301 --> 00:16:10,352
like you do Passive House course, you
get to sit next to Vili and Jesse and

502
00:16:10,352 --> 00:16:14,321
sort of just absorb, absorb, absorb
all this information, and it's, yeah,

503
00:16:14,942 --> 00:16:18,982
been such a steep learning curve,
but really, really informative and

504
00:16:19,731 --> 00:16:22,461
sort of you look back on a lot of
the buildings you did and just like,

505
00:16:23,491 --> 00:16:23,501
"
Oh."

506
00:16:23,531 --> 00:16:23,551
Yeah.

507
00:16:23,551 --> 00:16:24,352
We've all had that moment though.

508
00:16:24,422 --> 00:16:24,542
Yeah.

509
00:16:24,682 --> 00:16:25,352
Yeah, absolutely.

510
00:16:25,402 --> 00:16:25,842
Totally.

511
00:16:25,902 --> 00:16:30,021
Um, I've got two thoughts running through
my brain, so I'm gonna cross my… I saw

512
00:16:30,032 --> 00:16:33,162
Dan do this yesterday- Mm … when we were
at dinner table, so I'm gonna do this.

513
00:16:33,221 --> 00:16:35,204
I'm gonna come back to one of the- So
just cross to have your reference … I'll

514
00:16:35,204 --> 00:16:36,731
cross my fingers to, to, to remember.

515
00:16:36,731 --> 00:16:39,341
And he's like sitting there like talking
with his hand crossed, and I'm like,

516
00:16:39,501 --> 00:16:41,942
"Why the fuck have you got your finger
crossed?" He's like, "I was told to

517
00:16:41,942 --> 00:16:43,462
remember something." And then he forgot.

518
00:16:44,602 --> 00:16:46,352
Uh- Such a Dan.

519
00:16:47,831 --> 00:16:51,021
Um, it, uh, the point I was
about to get to before Matt was,

520
00:16:51,021 --> 00:16:52,922
um, we live in a, this bubble.

521
00:16:53,081 --> 00:16:53,341
Yeah.

522
00:16:53,491 --> 00:16:56,381
And we're talking this is two years
ago, not even two years ago, when

523
00:16:56,381 --> 00:16:57,921
you're like still wrapping- A year.

524
00:16:58,281 --> 00:16:59,611
Uh, yeah, a, a year ago.

525
00:16:59,681 --> 00:17:03,711
And still wrapping a house in foil and
thinking that was the good thing to do.

526
00:17:03,772 --> 00:17:06,991
Mm. Whereas we think about this now
and think, "Fuck, you know, that's,

527
00:17:07,111 --> 00:17:09,941
you know, we're, we're in 2026 now,
why the fuck are you still doing that?"

528
00:17:09,951 --> 00:17:10,301
Mm.

529
00:17:10,601 --> 00:17:13,971
Uh, and it probably just goes
to show how much the industry

530
00:17:13,982 --> 00:17:15,311
still, the broader industry- Yeah

531
00:17:15,311 --> 00:17:16,051
needs to catch up.

532
00:17:16,131 --> 00:17:21,341
And y- and within the year, you've
been able to absorb that much

533
00:17:21,372 --> 00:17:24,042
information, bring your carpentry
and physics degree to a point

534
00:17:24,042 --> 00:17:27,302
where you presented at the Building
Physics Forum in Australia last week.

535
00:17:27,302 --> 00:17:28,201
Yeah, the other week.

536
00:17:28,201 --> 00:17:28,441
Yeah.

537
00:17:28,512 --> 00:17:31,821
Yeah, so like that is a huge amount
of learning in a year to be able to

538
00:17:31,821 --> 00:17:34,671
get up and speak in front of some of
the, probably the smartest people.

539
00:17:35,031 --> 00:17:37,321
And how, how'd you find that, getting
up in front of a bunch of people?

540
00:17:37,341 --> 00:17:38,451
'Cause, you know, you're a chippy.

541
00:17:38,581 --> 00:17:38,771
Yeah.

542
00:17:39,321 --> 00:17:41,021
That's been another big learning curve.

543
00:17:41,081 --> 00:17:47,101
Um, a lot of what I did through last
year was going to like events, training,

544
00:17:47,661 --> 00:17:52,192
presenting, just on sort of, you know,
the realities of envelope design and

545
00:17:52,192 --> 00:17:56,551
condensation management, and really
breaking that public speaking bone

546
00:17:56,552 --> 00:18:01,018
and, yeah, trying to sort of- work
on that because that was terrifying.

547
00:18:01,178 --> 00:18:01,828
Yeah, it is.

548
00:18:01,828 --> 00:18:07,038
That was, um, the Building Physics
Conference, that was great, like

549
00:18:07,038 --> 00:18:10,558
really good opportunity to just talk to
some of those people in the industry.

550
00:18:11,148 --> 00:18:15,898
Um, the actual presentation, like
I, I'm happy with the content.

551
00:18:15,987 --> 00:18:18,647
I think my presentation
has room for improvement.

552
00:18:18,657 --> 00:18:18,957
Do you know

553
00:18:18,957 --> 00:18:19,367
what, though?

554
00:18:19,457 --> 00:18:19,767
Start somewhere.

555
00:18:19,767 --> 00:18:23,367
I've, I've actually found, and maybe
I'm a little bit biased 'cause I'm

556
00:18:23,387 --> 00:18:26,408
sort of trade background, I am also
university educated as well, but I've

557
00:18:26,737 --> 00:18:28,628
done spent most of my time in the trade.

558
00:18:28,807 --> 00:18:29,157
Yeah.

559
00:18:29,337 --> 00:18:34,717
I usually find the most endearing and
engaging presentations and conversations

560
00:18:34,717 --> 00:18:39,977
when someone's up on stage is
generally someone who hasn't come from

561
00:18:40,228 --> 00:18:43,447
university, profession, public speaking.

562
00:18:43,638 --> 00:18:46,877
Like as a tradie, you know,
we're not known to getting up

563
00:18:46,897 --> 00:18:48,067
and talking in front of people.

564
00:18:48,077 --> 00:18:51,717
Mm. And there's a r- there's a rawness
and a realness and something that's, um,

565
00:18:51,717 --> 00:18:55,727
very familiar with someone coming up on
stage and being- Yeah … uncomfortable.

566
00:18:55,737 --> 00:18:55,767
Com-

567
00:18:55,767 --> 00:18:56,557
completely agree.

568
00:18:56,717 --> 00:19:00,717
In the Timber Construction Conference
last year, there was like a lot of

569
00:19:00,717 --> 00:19:05,297
high-end conversations, engineers,
architects, then this truss manufacturer

570
00:19:05,298 --> 00:19:10,777
gets up and just is like talking very,
uh, how would you say, frank about- Yeah

571
00:19:10,777 --> 00:19:12,978
the industry and everything, and
it's just like so refreshing- It,

572
00:19:12,978 --> 00:19:13,907
it's real … to hear it.

573
00:19:13,907 --> 00:19:14,002
Yeah.

574
00:19:14,002 --> 00:19:14,528
Yeah, it's real.

575
00:19:14,588 --> 00:19:17,387
Like some of my favorite, um,
presentations at Thrive, the,

576
00:19:17,637 --> 00:19:20,017
a Passive House conference, are
generally when the builder gets up.

577
00:19:20,018 --> 00:19:20,028
Mm.

578
00:19:20,037 --> 00:19:20,057
Yeah.

579
00:19:20,057 --> 00:19:20,747
Definitely.

580
00:19:20,747 --> 00:19:23,377
'
Cause it, 'cause it's language…
Well, maybe it's 'cause it's

581
00:19:23,377 --> 00:19:26,977
language that I'm more familiar with,
but I think it's also just real-

582
00:19:27,118 --> 00:19:27,248
We

583
00:19:27,248 --> 00:19:27,678
just tell

584
00:19:27,678 --> 00:19:27,988
it how it

585
00:19:27,988 --> 00:19:28,277
is sometimes

586
00:19:28,277 --> 00:19:29,017
tell it how it is, yeah.

587
00:19:29,097 --> 00:19:29,807
Mm. Yeah.

588
00:19:29,807 --> 00:19:29,957
Yeah.

589
00:19:29,957 --> 00:19:30,917
You don't sugarcoat stuff.

590
00:19:30,978 --> 00:19:32,847
And don't try to overcomplicate things.

591
00:19:32,868 --> 00:19:39,057
That's, you know, engineers and scientists
fall into the trap of assuming a certain

592
00:19:39,057 --> 00:19:42,537
baseline level of understanding or
whatever- Yeah … and talking above

593
00:19:42,537 --> 00:19:46,498
it, whereas I think a builder has a
really good approach of just- Yeah

594
00:19:46,778 --> 00:19:46,818
you know.

595
00:19:47,597 --> 00:19:51,517
I think the, the person who I admire the
most when it comes to public speaking,

596
00:19:51,517 --> 00:19:54,707
who's freaking smart, is Cameron Munro.

597
00:19:54,707 --> 00:19:54,857
Oh.

598
00:19:55,517 --> 00:19:55,897
Like the way that- I haven't
had the chance to hear him yet.

599
00:19:55,897 --> 00:19:55,937
I've heard him on

600
00:19:55,937 --> 00:19:57,937
podcasts- It's the

601
00:19:57,937 --> 00:19:58,301
way- … and

602
00:19:58,301 --> 00:19:58,394
stuff,

603
00:19:58,394 --> 00:20:04,407
but … the way that he can break down
really complicated, uh, topics into

604
00:20:04,408 --> 00:20:06,137
something that I can understand- Mm

605
00:20:06,167 --> 00:20:07,847
is, it's a real skill.

606
00:20:07,948 --> 00:20:08,418
Mm.

607
00:20:08,487 --> 00:20:09,257
It's a real skill

608
00:20:10,495 --> 00:20:12,926
Um, what does day-to-day
look like for you?

609
00:20:12,995 --> 00:20:14,846
What do you, what do you
actually sort of… We, we talk

610
00:20:14,846 --> 00:20:15,866
about technical knowledge here.

611
00:20:15,926 --> 00:20:16,106
Yeah.

612
00:20:16,616 --> 00:20:20,065
Um, what, what are you… Are you
helping solve detailing problems or?

613
00:20:20,515 --> 00:20:21,326
Yeah, absolutely.

614
00:20:21,335 --> 00:20:24,755
So like, uh, builders, if
you call Pro Clima generally

615
00:20:24,765 --> 00:20:26,605
will talk to me or, or Villy.

616
00:20:27,085 --> 00:20:31,975
Um, but so generally answering
technical questions, helping on sort

617
00:20:31,975 --> 00:20:35,106
of architectural plans and designs.

618
00:20:35,866 --> 00:20:37,045
Designing out box gutters.

619
00:20:37,525 --> 00:20:38,645
Well, I was actually about to ask this.

620
00:20:38,645 --> 00:20:39,025
Good question.

621
00:20:39,025 --> 00:20:39,166
Box gutters.

622
00:20:39,936 --> 00:20:42,626
Well… What's your biggest hate of a
detail that comes to you across your desk?

623
00:20:42,716 --> 00:20:44,205
Uh- That you're just
like, "Why are we doing

624
00:20:44,205 --> 00:20:44,365
this?"

625
00:20:44,365 --> 00:20:45,165
Yeah.

626
00:20:45,165 --> 00:20:46,305
There's a few ones.

627
00:20:46,356 --> 00:20:46,636
Uh.

628
00:20:46,995 --> 00:20:47,315
List them.

629
00:20:47,326 --> 00:20:47,975
Let's go for it.

630
00:20:48,475 --> 00:20:50,575
I mean, box gutters is
the low-hanging fruit.

631
00:20:51,285 --> 00:20:55,775
Unnecessarily flat roofs,
balconies over living areas,

632
00:20:55,775 --> 00:20:57,835
planter boxes, or planter boxes.

633
00:20:58,795 --> 00:21:01,156
But they kind of are all… And
what's the common theme here?

634
00:21:01,216 --> 00:21:01,726
Water.

635
00:21:01,726 --> 00:21:01,955
Waterproofing.

636
00:21:01,966 --> 00:21:02,345
Yeah, yeah.

637
00:21:02,395 --> 00:21:08,295
Like, don't try to detail something that's
obviously gonna leak over a living space.

638
00:21:08,325 --> 00:21:09,145
It's just never

639
00:21:09,205 --> 00:21:10,445
a good- It used to be in
the code you couldn't put a

640
00:21:10,446 --> 00:21:11,725
balcony over a living space.

641
00:21:12,185 --> 00:21:12,655
Did you really?

642
00:21:12,655 --> 00:21:13,725
Yeah, and I think they removed it.

643
00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:14,106
Huh.

644
00:21:14,365 --> 00:21:17,076
Don't quote me on that, but I'm 95%

645
00:21:18,396 --> 00:21:18,426
sure.

646
00:21:18,426 --> 00:21:19,276
I, I'll have to ask Villy,
my encyclopedia on this.

647
00:21:19,276 --> 00:21:19,376
We,

648
00:21:19,416 --> 00:21:22,205
we've brought up box gutters a few
times, but you know, Matt and I have

649
00:21:22,206 --> 00:21:24,085
been here for a couple of days now,
and we were actually out the back

650
00:21:24,085 --> 00:21:27,715
yesterday, you know, looking at a computer
screen, you know, you and V- you and

651
00:21:27,715 --> 00:21:28,995
Villy were looking at, and I'm like…

652
00:21:29,115 --> 00:21:30,655
You're like, "Well, what, what
should we do here?" And I'm like,

653
00:21:30,946 --> 00:21:33,025
"Get rid of the box gutter and
put an eave gutter on it." Like-

654
00:21:33,065 --> 00:21:33,625
Good answer

655
00:21:33,745 --> 00:21:37,536
… 
it, and, and I joke, but if you think
about it logically, I understand

656
00:21:37,536 --> 00:21:39,586
from an architectural point of
view m- why you might want it.

657
00:21:39,645 --> 00:21:42,342
I, I get it, but- I don't.

658
00:21:42,342 --> 00:21:44,425
Yeah, I, I can understand
aesthetically, I, I get it.

659
00:21:44,455 --> 00:21:45,125
Yeah, okay.

660
00:21:45,175 --> 00:21:45,305
Yeah.

661
00:21:45,305 --> 00:21:48,855
But you could… But, but if that's
what is gonna set your house apart,

662
00:21:49,315 --> 00:21:50,815
then you have failed as a designer.

663
00:21:50,865 --> 00:21:51,415
Yeah.

664
00:21:51,765 --> 00:21:52,255
Or even- Put

665
00:21:52,255 --> 00:21:52,825
a fucking- Yeah

666
00:21:52,865 --> 00:21:56,845
… 
put an eave gutter on it and then put
the design prowess somewhere else, 'cause

667
00:21:56,876 --> 00:21:59,935
you want to get that water as far away
as bu- from a building as possible.

668
00:21:59,935 --> 00:22:03,015
And it's not like only us as like
builders and stuff, but like I have

669
00:22:03,035 --> 00:22:07,105
plumbing friends who are, there's very
specific ways to design a box gutter

670
00:22:07,105 --> 00:22:10,175
to work, but even still it's risky.

671
00:22:10,185 --> 00:22:10,205
Yeah.

672
00:22:10,215 --> 00:22:12,726
And it's like why introduce
that risk into your structure?

673
00:22:12,815 --> 00:22:17,106
But most people don't actually ca-
calculate the flow rate of the box gutter.

674
00:22:17,106 --> 00:22:17,335
Right.

675
00:22:17,376 --> 00:22:17,745
Exactly.

676
00:22:19,755 --> 00:22:20,095
They just go, "Oh, two degree roof."
They're like, "Yeah." "The minimum

677
00:22:20,095 --> 00:22:22,816
code is 300- 200 … 300 high." Yeah.

678
00:22:23,145 --> 00:22:24,405
175 m- mil high.

679
00:22:24,655 --> 00:22:24,866
And then-

680
00:22:25,035 --> 00:22:26,235
Well, let's, let's just
make it a little bit wider.

681
00:22:26,235 --> 00:22:27,269
But then do you know what it's not taking

682
00:22:27,269 --> 00:22:27,595
into consideration?

683
00:22:27,595 --> 00:22:29,015
That doesn't, that doesn't…
That might not work

684
00:22:29,505 --> 00:22:33,016
… 
is, is the fact that the owner should
get up there every six months and clean

685
00:22:33,016 --> 00:22:34,252
the gutters and box gutters- Totally

686
00:22:34,252 --> 00:22:35,196
and, and some power.

687
00:22:35,196 --> 00:22:37,535
Yeah, but that might, again- That
doesn't happen … that is a guess.

688
00:22:37,565 --> 00:22:41,645
That you've got to calculate the,
the flow rate of that water coming

689
00:22:41,645 --> 00:22:43,306
off and how much square meterage on
that roof is going in that overflow.

690
00:22:43,306 --> 00:22:43,516
Yeah.

691
00:22:43,615 --> 00:22:43,765
No,

692
00:22:43,765 --> 00:22:45,802
I, I get all of that, but you
know, in my mind- It's never

693
00:22:45,802 --> 00:22:46,915
done … that should just be done.

694
00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:51,365
If you've got something in your
house that can cause a critical

695
00:22:51,375 --> 00:22:55,215
failure from a tennis ball, I think
you've got bigger design issues.

696
00:22:55,375 --> 00:22:55,475
What do you

697
00:22:55,475 --> 00:22:55,585
mean

698
00:22:55,585 --> 00:22:55,665
by

699
00:22:55,666 --> 00:22:56,106
that?

700
00:22:56,235 --> 00:22:59,316
If you throw a tennis ball on the
roof, it clogs your overflow, and

701
00:22:59,316 --> 00:23:00,276
then it just leaks into your house

702
00:23:03,754 --> 00:23:04,124
Yeah.

703
00:23:04,184 --> 00:23:05,344
Fucking, that's a very good- It's,

704
00:23:05,344 --> 00:23:06,364
it's really is a really good

705
00:23:06,533 --> 00:23:09,654
point … bec- because they all
come down to water, and I think, um,

706
00:23:09,813 --> 00:23:13,813
the, the detail, like we, I think we
need to firstly understand that Pro

707
00:23:13,813 --> 00:23:15,313
Clima isn't a waterproofing system.

708
00:23:15,354 --> 00:23:15,793
No.

709
00:23:16,394 --> 00:23:18,874
Very important to sort
of, yeah, understand.

710
00:23:18,874 --> 00:23:25,184
It's like we encourage envelope design in
its entirety, but like waterproofing and,

711
00:23:25,563 --> 00:23:29,033
you know, like wet area waterproofing,
roof box gutter waterproofing, planter

712
00:23:29,033 --> 00:23:35,184
boxes, that's a whole separate like size
and field of the code that people…

713
00:23:35,853 --> 00:23:37,373
What, what's the minimum fall?

714
00:23:37,684 --> 00:23:39,423
So minim- let, let's
just work backwards here.

715
00:23:39,603 --> 00:23:39,773
Mm-hmm.

716
00:23:39,774 --> 00:23:41,954
Minimum roof pitch is actually
one degrees, which is-

717
00:23:42,333 --> 00:23:42,894
Oh, really?

718
00:23:42,934 --> 00:23:44,043
Isn't that mind-boggling?

719
00:23:44,253 --> 00:23:44,723
Yeah.

720
00:23:44,733 --> 00:23:48,033
Who… And the f- the, the ironic
thing is I constantly get plans

721
00:23:48,033 --> 00:23:51,114
that are like the spec'd anti-con
on top of a one degree pitch.

722
00:23:51,114 --> 00:23:55,264
Like if the house moves, and where
I build, where it's P-class most of

723
00:23:55,264 --> 00:23:58,503
the time, and in our soil reports we
can sometimes expect, I've seen up

724
00:23:58,503 --> 00:24:04,253
to 62, 66%, uh, uh, 62, 6 millimeters
of movement expected in the soil.

725
00:24:04,253 --> 00:24:08,043
Are you, are you- That, that, that
one degree might now, if that house

726
00:24:08,043 --> 00:24:09,833
moves, might be negative one degree.

727
00:24:09,893 --> 00:24:10,163
Oh, and if-

728
00:24:10,163 --> 00:24:11,063
And it goes the other way … you're

729
00:24:11,233 --> 00:24:13,634
sagging anti-con over-
Yeah … the battens, if you're

730
00:24:13,634 --> 00:24:15,413
at one degree, what's that sag?

731
00:24:15,473 --> 00:24:16,853
It's negative three degrees.

732
00:24:16,983 --> 00:24:17,253
Yeah.

733
00:24:17,303 --> 00:24:18,324
And so what- Yeah.

734
00:24:18,454 --> 00:24:23,303
So I, and I understand when people
wanna build on the height limitations

735
00:24:23,314 --> 00:24:25,073
and they've got their, their res code.

736
00:24:25,244 --> 00:24:29,813
Mm. I think res code needs to ease up
to allow this an extra space for these

737
00:24:30,113 --> 00:24:33,673
structures to maybe to be on a pitch,
but I think we should be looking at

738
00:24:33,674 --> 00:24:36,824
everything has to be minimum five degrees.

739
00:24:37,363 --> 00:24:41,693
I, yeah, I would like it, but, uh,
the reality is pliable building

740
00:24:41,693 --> 00:24:45,693
membranes, they say you can go down
to two degrees, which is not great.

741
00:24:45,783 --> 00:24:47,663
Like what's the difference
between one and two degrees?

742
00:24:48,373 --> 00:24:54,373
Five degrees, yeah, like if you
think about it over, I can't do the

743
00:24:54,373 --> 00:24:56,003
maths- 20 meters or something … off
the top of my head, but yeah.

744
00:24:56,634 --> 00:25:00,893
If you've got a five-degree roof,
you've s- still barely coming up

745
00:25:00,893 --> 00:25:02,393
on that encroaching sort of thing.

746
00:25:02,393 --> 00:25:07,800
So if you can design your roof to
be, you know, 300 mil lower- And

747
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,900
have that five degree fall, you
instantly just put a better sort of

748
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:12,510
long-term protection over your house

749
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,120
But where I'm getting at is we don't
design, or the people we usually

750
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:18,580
see don't design at one degree.

751
00:25:19,019 --> 00:25:23,270
A box to gu- gutter is 10% of one degree.

752
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:24,379
Mm.

753
00:25:24,429 --> 00:25:26,580
That's the fall that we have
to achieve for a box gutter,

754
00:25:26,810 --> 00:25:28,610
so it's practically flat.

755
00:25:28,739 --> 00:25:29,169
Yeah.

756
00:25:29,769 --> 00:25:31,240
Yeah, and then, like-

757
00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:32,800
And water will pool, that tin could-

758
00:25:33,399 --> 00:25:34,110
The tin could, yeah

759
00:25:34,159 --> 00:25:35,529
… 
it could can or, like…

760
00:25:35,839 --> 00:25:40,709
100%, and there's condensation, night sky
radiation on the bottom of the box gutter.

761
00:25:41,099 --> 00:25:44,899
There's how… If you do have water
underneath it, how do you drain that?

762
00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:45,950
Where do you drain that?

763
00:25:45,959 --> 00:25:47,019
How does it dry?

764
00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:50,229
Is it gonna drain because it's
sitting at, you know, half a degree?

765
00:25:50,229 --> 00:25:51,979
There's so many issues
with it that it's just-

766
00:25:51,979 --> 00:25:52,439
Yeah.

767
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,451
If, yeah, if you waterproof it- Please
avoid them … now bring in a vapor

768
00:25:55,451 --> 00:25:56,732
blocker, like if you- Yeah, exactly

769
00:25:56,732 --> 00:26:00,929
like you start to really, uh… We,
we… It's ironic that the code's

770
00:26:00,939 --> 00:26:03,099
like, "You can't use chipboard
to put your box gutter on."

771
00:26:03,209 --> 00:26:03,579
Mm.

772
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:06,359
So they've identified that water's
getting through and leaking, but-

773
00:26:06,499 --> 00:26:07,039
Exactly

774
00:26:07,339 --> 00:26:09,700
… 
putting a cement sheet
doesn't fix the issue.

775
00:26:09,709 --> 00:26:09,729
No.

776
00:26:09,729 --> 00:26:13,170
It just means that that material doesn't
rot, but the water's gotta go somewhere.

777
00:26:13,210 --> 00:26:16,649
Yeah, and it will heat up and
dry into your structure, and then

778
00:26:16,649 --> 00:26:18,119
you get mold risk and… Yeah.

779
00:26:18,399 --> 00:26:23,249
But yes, so that, that… So box gutter,
we can put planter boxes there that…

780
00:26:23,339 --> 00:26:25,405
A planter box- It's the same, same sort
of thing … and box are the same sort

781
00:26:25,405 --> 00:26:25,719
of thing.

782
00:26:25,859 --> 00:26:27,000
Just literally the same thing.

783
00:26:27,109 --> 00:26:27,749
Yeah.

784
00:26:27,769 --> 00:26:31,989
Um, and, and I suppose sort of window
design's a big one that is a point

785
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:33,419
of contention that I come across- Ooh

786
00:26:33,429 --> 00:26:33,809
a lot.

787
00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:34,929
Talk to me about that.

788
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:36,079
Um-

789
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:38,439
'
Cause I feel like window design,
the answers are all there

790
00:26:39,854 --> 00:26:45,314
For us, but like there's a mismatch
between what appears in the code

791
00:26:45,314 --> 00:26:47,274
and sort of what we recommend doing

792
00:26:48,163 --> 00:26:50,953
So is, are, are you talking about
the continuous flashing of the head?

793
00:26:51,354 --> 00:26:52,314
Yeah, stuff like that.

794
00:26:52,323 --> 00:26:57,554
The 110 mil, that's the essentially
the snake skin around that comes

795
00:26:57,584 --> 00:26:58,713
attached to an alley window.

796
00:26:58,713 --> 00:26:58,733
Yeah.

797
00:27:00,153 --> 00:27:03,353
That still appears in the code,
and there's like some certifiers

798
00:27:03,364 --> 00:27:04,613
have a bug bear about it.

799
00:27:05,393 --> 00:27:06,153
Um-

800
00:27:06,184 --> 00:27:08,154
Saying that they would
prefer that over your tape?

801
00:27:08,184 --> 00:27:09,224
Yeah, exactly.

802
00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:09,684
Wow.

803
00:27:09,684 --> 00:27:13,803
But it's, it's, it's verified through 4284
testing, like it's a compliant method of

804
00:27:13,804 --> 00:27:17,384
install, but it's that whole DTS verse.

805
00:27:17,633 --> 00:27:17,943
Yeah.

806
00:27:18,403 --> 00:27:19,483
What's in the code and what's easy?

807
00:27:19,483 --> 00:27:19,503
Yeah.

808
00:27:19,503 --> 00:27:19,593
So talk to,

809
00:27:19,593 --> 00:27:19,854
talk

810
00:27:19,854 --> 00:27:20,414
to me

811
00:27:20,414 --> 00:27:21,164
through DTS.

812
00:27:22,344 --> 00:27:23,884
Quickly touch on what DTS is.

813
00:27:24,023 --> 00:27:24,203
Oh.

814
00:27:25,534 --> 00:27:30,484
Uh, deemed to satisfy is sort of, I mean,
the way I describe it is the shittest you

815
00:27:30,484 --> 00:27:32,213
can build a house without going to jail.

816
00:27:33,194 --> 00:27:33,624
Um-

817
00:27:33,683 --> 00:27:35,383
So th- so just, just for
clarity- Yeah … th- these are

818
00:27:35,383 --> 00:27:37,683
pathways in the NCC to comply?

819
00:27:37,764 --> 00:27:38,224
Yes.

820
00:27:38,253 --> 00:27:38,483
Yeah.

821
00:27:39,113 --> 00:27:44,464
So DTS is what they outline in the
NCC and through standards and stuff

822
00:27:44,504 --> 00:27:49,053
of compliant method of install, but
it is the minimum compliance here.

823
00:27:49,593 --> 00:27:53,673
So, so the NCC has all the clauses
and, and that's like the basics.

824
00:27:53,864 --> 00:27:55,563
If it doesn't fall in that,
you then fall into the DTS?

825
00:27:57,093 --> 00:27:58,364
Uh, no.

826
00:27:58,483 --> 00:27:59,923
So DTS is the ba-

827
00:28:00,144 --> 00:28:00,613
The basics

828
00:28:00,613 --> 00:28:01,353
… 
basics, yeah.

829
00:28:01,383 --> 00:28:01,743
Okay.

830
00:28:01,913 --> 00:28:04,683
Then beyond that is a verification method.

831
00:28:04,684 --> 00:28:08,333
So each clause will have a list
of test methods that you can do to

832
00:28:08,333 --> 00:28:12,953
verify that your system's watertight,
weathertight, that sort of stuff.

833
00:28:12,953 --> 00:28:15,163
So that's sort of the better performing-

834
00:28:15,174 --> 00:28:16,093
And that's what you guys are?

835
00:28:16,113 --> 00:28:16,493
Yeah.

836
00:28:17,533 --> 00:28:17,563
Okay.

837
00:28:17,573 --> 00:28:19,493
That's pro- where we s- like we do
so much testing- Yeah, I hear you.

838
00:28:19,493 --> 00:28:20,254
Yeah … on our stuff.

839
00:28:20,254 --> 00:28:23,693
So that's sort of the avenue
we generally head down.

840
00:28:24,363 --> 00:28:29,223
And then you have stuff like evidence of
suitability, so like AVG 1 or something.

841
00:28:29,913 --> 00:28:36,643
Um, but that's more, you know, research
articles from the States and like- Yeah

842
00:28:36,683 --> 00:28:40,913
saying, "Yes, I can put exterior
insulation on my CLT structure-

843
00:28:40,913 --> 00:28:44,683
So- … even though it's
technically not deemed to satisfy."

844
00:28:45,203 --> 00:28:48,013
And you have kickback from builders
along a lot of these things, and when

845
00:28:48,014 --> 00:28:51,943
you start to produce a lot of this
information- Mm … do they get it or are

846
00:28:51,943 --> 00:28:53,304
they like, "Well, it's your-" Definit-

847
00:28:53,304 --> 00:28:54,453
look, no one…

848
00:28:54,464 --> 00:28:55,024
Yeah.

849
00:28:56,743 --> 00:28:59,374
S- every builder knows that
certifiers can sometimes be

850
00:28:59,393 --> 00:29:01,963
stubborn, so I'll leave it at that.

851
00:29:01,964 --> 00:29:06,563
But like, you know, most of the time when
you explain it like that to someone and

852
00:29:06,563 --> 00:29:11,114
you're like, "Hey, like this is a pathway,
yes, but there's also the verification

853
00:29:11,114 --> 00:29:12,823
stuff," and you can outline it.

854
00:29:13,163 --> 00:29:16,533
But that's why there's a popularity
of things like CodeMark and Brands

855
00:29:16,533 --> 00:29:20,703
appraisals because it takes away all
that guessing and it's just a like

856
00:29:20,873 --> 00:29:24,133
green stamp that a certifier can say,
"Great, don't have to look at that."

857
00:29:24,404 --> 00:29:26,683
Is Pro Clima stuff CodeMarked?

858
00:29:27,133 --> 00:29:32,553
Yes, mo- uh, uh, it's not a simple
process 'cause they're quite diligent.

859
00:29:32,563 --> 00:29:32,603
Cost.

860
00:29:32,604 --> 00:29:33,123
It's cost.

861
00:29:33,514 --> 00:29:34,984
No, the cost isn't an issue.

862
00:29:35,014 --> 00:29:39,416
It, it's more just- You know,
what are they code marking?

863
00:29:39,416 --> 00:29:43,236
And then they wanna… They'll send you a
list of things that test they wanna see.

864
00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:46,996
Um, and it's just, you
know, it's a process.

865
00:29:47,016 --> 00:29:49,766
It's not as easy as just going to
them and throwing money at them.

866
00:29:49,766 --> 00:29:52,665
Yeah, do you have code mark it
on your window tapes for this

867
00:29:52,665 --> 00:29:53,665
issue that you talk about?

868
00:29:54,515 --> 00:29:55,036
Not yet.

869
00:29:55,295 --> 00:29:56,165
Not yet, okay.

870
00:29:56,246 --> 00:29:58,905
'Cause it, yeah, I've, I've never been
pulled up on it, but- Yeah … we, we

871
00:29:58,916 --> 00:30:01,906
do work a lot with Dave from Permit
Approvals Plus, who's been on the podcast.

872
00:30:02,195 --> 00:30:02,605
Mm.

873
00:30:02,816 --> 00:30:05,205
And he can quickly see that
it makes sense that what we're

874
00:30:05,205 --> 00:30:06,476
doing compared to the snakeskin.

875
00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:08,065
As a building surveyor,
you should be just-

876
00:30:08,065 --> 00:30:09,805
You can get a hose and
see if it makes sense.

877
00:30:09,855 --> 00:30:10,445
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

878
00:30:10,445 --> 00:30:10,705
Yeah.

879
00:30:10,705 --> 00:30:13,375
Like, it's actually a good thing if, if
you're a builder and your, your building

880
00:30:13,375 --> 00:30:15,196
surveyor is questioning it, just-

881
00:30:15,196 --> 00:30:15,955
Go and get a hose.

882
00:30:15,986 --> 00:30:18,135
Yeah, go get a hose and ask him
how long you want to stand there

883
00:30:18,135 --> 00:30:19,585
for, one, two, three hours.

884
00:30:20,216 --> 00:30:23,275
Say, "I'll rip out the under window,
and I'll put in the snakeskin, and

885
00:30:23,275 --> 00:30:26,286
I'll hose that down, and then you
tell me if it's compliant or not."

886
00:30:26,375 --> 00:30:26,925
Yeah.

887
00:30:26,955 --> 00:30:31,445
And it's also, like, that's one way
to do it on, on site, but, like,

888
00:30:31,445 --> 00:30:35,365
at the design stage if a surveyor
picks it up and they're like, "Oh,

889
00:30:35,365 --> 00:30:36,655
where's the code mark for this?"

890
00:30:36,675 --> 00:30:42,375
It can be frustrating having to
explain those methods of compliance.

891
00:30:43,015 --> 00:30:44,905
So, you know, code mark's a good thing.

892
00:30:44,905 --> 00:30:49,116
There's a reason it's there, but
it's, it's a process to get it, um,

893
00:30:49,125 --> 00:30:51,065
for everything, like window details.

894
00:30:51,066 --> 00:30:55,956
You can get the product code marked, but
the details are a bit more complicated.

895
00:30:56,265 --> 00:30:56,495
Yeah.

896
00:30:56,505 --> 00:30:59,886
I mean, I understand why
the code does what it does.

897
00:30:59,925 --> 00:31:03,806
Like, I get it, but the fact that
it's so slow to then pick up this

898
00:31:03,806 --> 00:31:06,275
stuff is probably- Mm … the most
infuriating, infuriating part.

899
00:31:06,306 --> 00:31:09,245
Like, if we have- Yeah … you know,
if, if we're trying to protect the

900
00:31:09,245 --> 00:31:13,025
consumer really, 'cause that's what
the code's there for- Mm … why not

901
00:31:13,026 --> 00:31:15,815
put in measures like what we're just
talking about now, which I think are

902
00:31:15,855 --> 00:31:18,293
a low-hanging fruit Yeah, I know.

903
00:31:18,293 --> 00:31:20,530
It's, it's like- We, we can sit
here, we can re- sit here and riff

904
00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:22,389
about it all day … so what's, what's
sort of frustrating on that is, like,

905
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:25,720
I saw when they were the VBA, they
doing this study into, like, why

906
00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:28,060
balconies leak and why windows leaking.

907
00:31:28,570 --> 00:31:31,060
How about instead of spending the
millions to do the study, everyone

908
00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:32,469
are like, "Hey, guys, got the answer."

909
00:31:32,539 --> 00:31:32,679
Yeah.

910
00:31:32,679 --> 00:31:34,959
It's 'cause they weren't using the right
products, they weren't installed properly.

911
00:31:35,239 --> 00:31:35,429
Yeah.

912
00:31:35,530 --> 00:31:37,660
Save yourself the millions
in the investigation.

913
00:31:38,069 --> 00:31:40,599
Uh, and, and they weren't
tested and verified.

914
00:31:40,919 --> 00:31:43,679
You, you, uh, you, you solve
the problem without a study.

915
00:31:43,770 --> 00:31:49,229
Products are, are definitely a part
of it, but also design and, and, like,

916
00:31:49,909 --> 00:31:51,639
understanding the basic concepts.

917
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:56,570
Like a big one for windows leaking in
commercial facades is an interior air

918
00:31:56,570 --> 00:32:00,399
seal, and you sort of think of that as
like, oh, it's not really weatherproofing.

919
00:32:00,940 --> 00:32:04,330
But under any sort of pressure
buffeting against the structure,

920
00:32:04,879 --> 00:32:07,529
that's trying to equalize through your
window junctions, and if you haven't

921
00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:11,099
sealed that properly, it's gonna pull
moisture in like a vacuum cleaner.

922
00:32:11,339 --> 00:32:11,489
Oh.

923
00:32:11,659 --> 00:32:16,119
So that's what I presented on at the
Air Building Thing physics conference.

924
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:16,440
Yeah.

925
00:32:17,350 --> 00:32:17,370
Yeah.

926
00:32:17,370 --> 00:32:17,659
That- The Building, the Building Thing.

927
00:32:17,659 --> 00:32:17,769
The

928
00:32:17,769 --> 00:32:18,369
Building Thing.

929
00:32:19,749 --> 00:32:23,859
But it's that concept of it's something
as simple as, you know, a lot of

930
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,629
builders, like, spray foam it to add-

931
00:32:27,159 --> 00:32:27,599
But what

932
00:32:28,269 --> 00:32:28,339
spray foam?

933
00:32:28,339 --> 00:32:28,529
… 
insulation.

934
00:32:28,599 --> 00:32:29,690
This is a really important part.

935
00:32:30,489 --> 00:32:31,619
We can dive into that.

936
00:32:31,939 --> 00:32:32,769
Yeah, 'cause if you go- I'll
cross my fingers … if you

937
00:32:32,769 --> 00:32:35,120
do an open cell spray foam, you
might be in a bit of problem.

938
00:32:35,169 --> 00:32:35,689
Totally.

939
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:42,739
Um, but reality is if detail
are easy, tape up your inside.

940
00:32:42,739 --> 00:32:46,139
If you've got tape anyway- Yeah … you've
completely moderated that pressure

941
00:32:46,169 --> 00:32:47,789
zone between your window junction.

942
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:50,869
It's interesting, yeah, so I'm about to
do a passive house, uh, and we're not

943
00:32:50,869 --> 00:32:52,149
using INTELLO for the first time ever.

944
00:32:52,289 --> 00:32:52,719
Okay.

945
00:32:52,939 --> 00:32:57,939
Should I, whether is a consideration, but
n- so now I think airtightness, should

946
00:32:57,939 --> 00:33:01,450
I just have an extra few rolls of the
X-PLORA and just go around and just tape

947
00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:03,809
the junction just to my stud and top?

948
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:04,359
Absolutely.

949
00:33:04,379 --> 00:33:04,840
Yeah, yeah,

950
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:04,850
yeah.

951
00:33:04,850 --> 00:33:05,360
Interesting.

952
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:05,459
Yeah.

953
00:33:05,460 --> 00:33:07,829
'Cause we've, we've got a project
which we're about to start, which

954
00:33:07,829 --> 00:33:09,169
just has an external barrier.

955
00:33:09,229 --> 00:33:09,549
Mm-hmm.

956
00:33:09,780 --> 00:33:13,629
And, you know, we're going for l- w-
our, our goal is one, airtightness-

957
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,329
Yeah … which I reckon we'll get, but
we haven't allowed to tape the inside.

958
00:33:17,609 --> 00:33:18,159
Yeah.

959
00:33:18,259 --> 00:33:18,639
It's what they

960
00:33:20,899 --> 00:33:21,049
use, like- But we are foam-

961
00:33:21,049 --> 00:33:21,329
I'll wear that

962
00:33:21,329 --> 00:33:21,371
guy.

963
00:33:21,371 --> 00:33:21,699
It's, it's more important-
I've allowed, I've allowed

964
00:33:21,699 --> 00:33:22,059
for foaming,

965
00:33:22,089 --> 00:33:25,090
but I haven't- … in commercial
under significant pressure, like wind

966
00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:27,709
pressures, but it's good practice for
any sort of window weatherproofing.

967
00:33:29,238 --> 00:33:30,128
And that's where it's gonna leak your heat

968
00:33:30,148 --> 00:33:31,908
Can I, can I ask on that though?

969
00:33:31,948 --> 00:33:35,868
Like, why, why the Passive
House without the intel?

970
00:33:35,918 --> 00:33:36,278
Like-

971
00:33:36,438 --> 00:33:38,968
No, it's a, it's a, uh, cost.

972
00:33:39,198 --> 00:33:39,478
Yeah.

973
00:33:40,038 --> 00:33:43,697
Like, let's be honest, the air tightness
internal membrane and batten system

974
00:33:43,718 --> 00:33:45,618
probably adds 45 grand to the process.

975
00:33:46,038 --> 00:33:46,478
Okay.

976
00:33:47,118 --> 00:33:47,927
Same, same on this one.

977
00:33:47,928 --> 00:33:49,917
This one's a cost-sensitive project, and,

978
00:33:49,917 --> 00:33:51,478
um- And we push for it
every single project.

979
00:33:51,478 --> 00:33:53,637
You know, we're, we're still
putting… We're still going

980
00:33:53,637 --> 00:33:55,262
for good air tightness- Mm

981
00:33:55,262 --> 00:33:59,578
so we are targeting one, good
windows, or BQ PVC, and we are

982
00:33:59,578 --> 00:34:03,558
putting a, um, ventilation,
dedicated ventilation system through.

983
00:34:03,567 --> 00:34:03,587
Yeah.

984
00:34:03,757 --> 00:34:03,947
Same

985
00:34:03,948 --> 00:34:03,978
here.

986
00:34:03,988 --> 00:34:08,897
But, um, in our climate, the risk, you
know, Alex Slater's on this project,

987
00:34:08,898 --> 00:34:14,308
so he's done some calculations and
some modeling and there's no risk of,

988
00:34:14,337 --> 00:34:17,407
um, uh, any cold spots in that wall.

989
00:34:17,887 --> 00:34:18,247
Yeah,

990
00:34:18,247 --> 00:34:18,367
okay.

991
00:34:18,367 --> 00:34:19,517
We got 140 walls as well.

992
00:34:19,518 --> 00:34:20,267
140 walls.

993
00:34:20,267 --> 00:34:20,542
Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a key point.

994
00:34:20,542 --> 00:34:20,620
Yeah, okay.

995
00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:20,807
I've got 140 as well,

996
00:34:21,737 --> 00:34:21,857
so-

997
00:34:21,857 --> 00:34:22,187
Yeah.

998
00:34:22,187 --> 00:34:25,688
Yeah, and that's probably interesting
to, interesting to, to, to, to, to

999
00:34:25,707 --> 00:34:28,487
sit on for a second 'cause 90 mil
walls would've made a difference.

1000
00:34:28,518 --> 00:34:29,347
Yeah, definitely.

1001
00:34:29,378 --> 00:34:29,518
Yeah.

1002
00:34:29,538 --> 00:34:29,933
Yeah, it is.

1003
00:34:29,933 --> 00:34:30,018
That would

1004
00:34:30,018 --> 00:34:30,528
condensate.

1005
00:34:30,708 --> 00:34:30,998
Yeah.

1006
00:34:31,938 --> 00:34:32,238
Yeah.

1007
00:34:32,238 --> 00:34:34,117
'
Cause, 'cause we're keeping this
structure warm, if we understand

1008
00:34:34,117 --> 00:34:35,417
sort of basic building physics.

1009
00:34:35,427 --> 00:34:35,447
Yeah.

1010
00:34:35,458 --> 00:34:37,338
More insulation, warmer structure.

1011
00:34:37,338 --> 00:34:37,528
So there are areas of-

1012
00:34:37,528 --> 00:34:40,337
Yeah, some sort of the
basics of building physics.

1013
00:34:40,518 --> 00:34:40,838
Yeah.

1014
00:34:40,838 --> 00:34:44,308
I think it's, like, three
important envelopes to consider.

1015
00:34:44,308 --> 00:34:47,287
There's your weather tightness envelope
on the outside, and these all…

1016
00:34:47,327 --> 00:34:49,817
Everyone's heard of the red pen
with the air tightness- Yeah … how

1017
00:34:49,817 --> 00:34:50,867
you draw around your structure.

1018
00:34:50,867 --> 00:34:50,887
Yeah.

1019
00:34:50,957 --> 00:34:51,077
I've

1020
00:34:51,077 --> 00:34:51,817
never done that.

1021
00:34:52,157 --> 00:34:54,578
Uh, it's, it looks good
on presentations, but, um-

1022
00:34:55,288 --> 00:34:55,478
Steve presents it well, yeah.

1023
00:34:55,668 --> 00:34:55,948
Yeah.

1024
00:34:55,977 --> 00:34:59,317
But you, you should do it three times
almost, like, your external weather

1025
00:34:59,317 --> 00:35:02,227
tightness envelope, your thermal envelope-

1026
00:35:02,297 --> 00:35:03,137
So insulation.

1027
00:35:03,177 --> 00:35:03,507
Yeah.

1028
00:35:03,558 --> 00:35:03,858
Yeah.

1029
00:35:03,957 --> 00:35:06,898
And then your air tightness envelope
if you're going down that path.

1030
00:35:06,977 --> 00:35:10,398
And your weather tightness and your
air tightness can be the same thing,

1031
00:35:11,147 --> 00:35:14,877
but I think thermal envelope's just as
important as those other two because

1032
00:35:15,268 --> 00:35:19,538
if you have these gaps and thermal
bridges, it adds up so quickly, one,

1033
00:35:19,547 --> 00:35:22,987
to the efficiency of the structure,
but also the health and durability

1034
00:35:22,988 --> 00:35:25,247
and cold spots and condensation.

1035
00:35:25,257 --> 00:35:25,387
Yeah.

1036
00:35:25,387 --> 00:35:26,608
Well, the NCC punishes you.

1037
00:35:26,608 --> 00:35:30,058
If you have more than 5% gaps in
the insulation layer, you lose

1038
00:35:30,058 --> 00:35:32,107
50% of the effective R value.

1039
00:35:32,107 --> 00:35:36,087
So you might have put R6 in your ceiling,
you got 5% gaps when you've got your

1040
00:35:36,087 --> 00:35:40,047
heating and cooling pipes- Yeah … and
your ducts and lights and downlights,

1041
00:35:40,047 --> 00:35:43,068
y- y- your R6 is no longer R6, it's R3.

1042
00:35:43,187 --> 00:35:47,227
And it's crazy, like, you know,
we're talking about five years

1043
00:35:47,227 --> 00:35:52,438
ago I was building houses, and-
I never thought about that once.

1044
00:35:53,038 --> 00:35:53,058
Yeah.

1045
00:35:53,348 --> 00:35:54,618
I was jamming in- You're not

1046
00:35:54,618 --> 00:35:55,078
meant to know.

1047
00:35:55,188 --> 00:35:55,348
You- you-

1048
00:35:55,348 --> 00:35:59,837
… 
the batts straight out of the bag, and
like, it's just something I wish was more-

1049
00:36:00,538 --> 00:36:03,837
And stuffing it into crevices
and- Yeah … and not- 100%

1050
00:36:03,837 --> 00:36:04,388
thinking about it.

1051
00:36:04,388 --> 00:36:04,548
Yeah.

1052
00:36:04,548 --> 00:36:04,978
Yeah.

1053
00:36:04,978 --> 00:36:10,017
And I just wish it was just something
spoken about even as like a module in

1054
00:36:10,018 --> 00:36:12,728
TAFE, is just sort of envelope design.

1055
00:36:12,888 --> 00:36:15,488
Well, uh, uh, it's probably important
to know why that doesn't work, because

1056
00:36:15,507 --> 00:36:19,117
insulation is essentially millions and
millions and millions of little bubbles.

1057
00:36:19,227 --> 00:36:19,657
Mm-hmm.

1058
00:36:19,657 --> 00:36:22,827
And if you compress those
bubbles, well, they can't store-

1059
00:36:23,368 --> 00:36:24,097
They… Yeah.

1060
00:36:24,097 --> 00:36:24,147
Yeah.

1061
00:36:24,147 --> 00:36:24,687
Exactly.

1062
00:36:24,728 --> 00:36:25,227
They… You're

1063
00:36:25,228 --> 00:36:25,667
moving them out the way.

1064
00:36:25,667 --> 00:36:28,217
So the thermal resistance
comes from trapped air pockets.

1065
00:36:28,318 --> 00:36:28,448
Yeah.

1066
00:36:28,478 --> 00:36:30,797
This is also another problem
I have with Anticon, but I'm-

1067
00:36:30,958 --> 00:36:31,147
Go for

1068
00:36:31,147 --> 00:36:31,927
it … dancing around.

1069
00:36:31,927 --> 00:36:32,047
No, don't dance.

1070
00:36:32,047 --> 00:36:32,067
Don't dance.

1071
00:36:32,067 --> 00:36:32,117
Let's just not say Anticon.

1072
00:36:32,117 --> 00:36:32,207
Let's say there's an- uh, just go for it.

1073
00:36:32,207 --> 00:36:32,227
Yeah, okay.

1074
00:36:32,227 --> 00:36:32,297
Well- Because it's used all the time.

1075
00:36:32,297 --> 00:36:33,607
I still, I still… I know architects that
listen to this podcast are still specing

1076
00:36:43,837 --> 00:36:43,927
it.

1077
00:36:43,987 --> 00:36:44,787
Mm-hmm.

1078
00:36:44,787 --> 00:36:45,987
And it's dangerous.

1079
00:36:46,507 --> 00:36:46,997
It is dangerous.

1080
00:36:47,157 --> 00:36:49,597
Uh- And, and, and, not o- And you're
liable … and not only that, well,

1081
00:36:49,598 --> 00:36:53,317
there's that part, but it's also being
added into your NatHERS assessment as

1082
00:36:53,317 --> 00:36:55,277
well as- Yeah … as part of the R-value.

1083
00:36:55,277 --> 00:36:55,357
That's a big one.

1084
00:36:55,357 --> 00:36:57,217
And it's not, it's actually
not doing anything.

1085
00:36:57,228 --> 00:36:57,617
Do you know what?

1086
00:36:57,637 --> 00:37:02,457
The only good thing about Anticon is
that it does dull the rain when it rains.

1087
00:37:02,628 --> 00:37:03,478
So I hear.

1088
00:37:03,478 --> 00:37:04,778
I haven't seen any data on it though.

1089
00:37:04,818 --> 00:37:05,078
Yeah.

1090
00:37:05,078 --> 00:37:05,598
Yeah.

1091
00:37:05,598 --> 00:37:06,318
But like, that makes sense to me.

1092
00:37:06,318 --> 00:37:06,373
Okay,

1093
00:37:06,373 --> 00:37:06,428
so

1094
00:37:06,428 --> 00:37:11,608
s- I hear that, but- I have, I have
anecdotal evidence of- Yeah … um, s-

1095
00:37:11,608 --> 00:37:15,058
you know, I guess switching six or seven
years ago from building normal code build

1096
00:37:15,058 --> 00:37:18,927
homes and using Anticon to, uh, building
high performance and passive homes.

1097
00:37:18,987 --> 00:37:22,848
Mm. And like the first couple, they're
like, "Oh, we really, uh, we can… We

1098
00:37:22,848 --> 00:37:27,447
hear the noise more." It's a different
sound, 'cause your Anticon's like-

1099
00:37:27,917 --> 00:37:29,517
Did they have internal air tightens layer?

1100
00:37:29,687 --> 00:37:31,277
Uh, no.

1101
00:37:31,497 --> 00:37:31,717
Yeah,

1102
00:37:31,717 --> 00:37:31,937
that's… Yeah.

1103
00:37:31,947 --> 00:37:37,094
But if you talk to an acoustic consultant,
they're never saying put- bulk insulation

1104
00:37:37,104 --> 00:37:41,584
up there, they're saying put a rigid
like FC sheet up for acoustic dampening.

1105
00:37:41,934 --> 00:37:42,314
Yeah.

1106
00:37:42,784 --> 00:37:47,364
So the, like I'm no expert on
acoustics, but there is, I think

1107
00:37:47,364 --> 00:37:51,253
there's a fundamental misunderstanding
and anecdotally and, and like

1108
00:37:51,973 --> 00:37:53,634
intuitively that makes sense, right?

1109
00:37:53,634 --> 00:37:56,413
You're like, "I've got a blanket under
my sheet- Yeah … it's gonna dampen

1110
00:37:56,413 --> 00:37:58,103
it." But I don't know if that's the case.

1111
00:37:58,153 --> 00:37:58,273
I don't-

1112
00:37:58,473 --> 00:37:58,633
Yeah.

1113
00:37:58,893 --> 00:38:02,424
Well look, I mean, we're, now
that we're us- putting significant

1114
00:38:02,424 --> 00:38:07,074
amounts of insulation in our roof
and also from, and most projects

1115
00:38:07,103 --> 00:38:08,424
now we're making them a warm roof.

1116
00:38:08,503 --> 00:38:08,813
Mm.

1117
00:38:08,823 --> 00:38:11,563
So you're actually not allow-
Yeah … getting the, getting that

1118
00:38:11,563 --> 00:38:13,273
sound to go into the attic space.

1119
00:38:13,273 --> 00:38:14,901
Again, I'm not a- Totally … I'm
not an acoustic engineer.

1120
00:38:14,901 --> 00:38:15,216
So, yeah.

1121
00:38:15,216 --> 00:38:15,374
Warm,

1122
00:38:15,374 --> 00:38:15,704
yeah.

1123
00:38:15,744 --> 00:38:18,823
But intuitively, stopping the
sound from getting into here

1124
00:38:18,823 --> 00:38:20,123
and then reverberating around.

1125
00:38:20,133 --> 00:38:20,503
Mm.

1126
00:38:20,553 --> 00:38:23,113
And Cam, please like catch
me out here if I'm wrong.

1127
00:38:23,613 --> 00:38:27,593
But, um, like we're seeing a, a shift
now that it's not as much of an issue.

1128
00:38:27,633 --> 00:38:28,153
But- Yeah.

1129
00:38:28,573 --> 00:38:29,774
I, and I don't want to go on this

1130
00:38:29,774 --> 00:38:31,424
road- I honestly love, honestly
love hearing rain on the roof.

1131
00:38:31,424 --> 00:38:32,023
Yeah.

1132
00:38:32,023 --> 00:38:32,303
Same.

1133
00:38:32,303 --> 00:38:35,134
But, but warmer roof- … Australia's
definition of a warm roof to the

1134
00:38:35,134 --> 00:38:37,783
traditional definition of warm
roof is actually very different.

1135
00:38:38,063 --> 00:38:38,384
Oh, true.

1136
00:38:38,393 --> 00:38:38,413
Yeah.

1137
00:38:38,674 --> 00:38:43,703
I, I think it's helpful for, you know,
like an Aussie chippy or builder to

1138
00:38:43,714 --> 00:38:48,084
just understand not having cold dead
air above your insulation in your attic.

1139
00:38:48,113 --> 00:38:48,433
Yeah.

1140
00:38:48,433 --> 00:38:48,494
Yeah.

1141
00:38:48,494 --> 00:38:49,754
Because we build trusses.

1142
00:38:49,903 --> 00:38:51,974
A lot of places in the
world don't build trusses.

1143
00:38:52,124 --> 00:38:52,534
That's where the

1144
00:38:52,534 --> 00:38:52,714
difference is.

1145
00:38:52,714 --> 00:38:56,513
So, so in a, in a nutshell, warm roof,
pushing your insulation right up to the

1146
00:38:56,513 --> 00:38:57,753
underside of the- Externally if you can

1147
00:38:57,813 --> 00:38:59,193
right of the underside of the roof sheet.

1148
00:38:59,203 --> 00:39:02,933
Mm. Whereas a typical cold
roof construction is insulation

1149
00:39:02,933 --> 00:39:03,863
on top of the plaster.

1150
00:39:04,254 --> 00:39:04,274
Yeah.

1151
00:39:04,274 --> 00:39:04,628
Which is pretty popular.

1152
00:39:04,628 --> 00:39:07,473
And, and in that case as well,
just try a design with rafters.

1153
00:39:07,574 --> 00:39:09,703
If you've got a gable
roof, ridge beam, rafter.

1154
00:39:09,824 --> 00:39:09,914
Yeah.

1155
00:39:11,584 --> 00:39:11,604
Yeah.

1156
00:39:11,604 --> 00:39:12,104
That solves so much- Unfortunately,
it, unfortunately it does

1157
00:39:12,104 --> 00:39:12,943
become a cost thing though.

1158
00:39:12,943 --> 00:39:15,803
So again, I think I've said this before,
any truss manufacturers out there that

1159
00:39:15,803 --> 00:39:18,724
can come up with a really good detail,
and I'm thinking more about where the

1160
00:39:18,724 --> 00:39:20,173
heel sits on top of the- I was just

1161
00:39:20,183 --> 00:39:20,973
about to say the same

1162
00:39:20,973 --> 00:39:22,663
thing, yeah … heel sits on
top of the top plate- Reach

1163
00:39:22,663 --> 00:39:23,823
out … to, to increase that up.

1164
00:39:23,833 --> 00:39:27,193
Like I, 'cause obviously your truss,
and I'm using my hands here, but

1165
00:39:27,373 --> 00:39:30,963
truss comes down in a triangle and
if you've got R6 in your roof- Mm

1166
00:39:30,963 --> 00:39:34,393
and you're stuffing it into the corner- Mm
… it ain't R6 when it gets in the corner.

1167
00:39:34,393 --> 00:39:35,073
100%.

1168
00:39:35,083 --> 00:39:37,843
We ask all our roof trusses
to have a 300 mil heel.

1169
00:39:37,854 --> 00:39:38,034
Yeah.

1170
00:39:38,034 --> 00:39:39,013
Bring, bring… That's what I'm saying.

1171
00:39:39,053 --> 00:39:39,394
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1172
00:39:39,394 --> 00:39:39,863
Bring the heel up.

1173
00:39:40,493 --> 00:39:40,553
Okay, yeah.

1174
00:39:40,553 --> 00:39:44,673
But then, but then you also need to figure
out a really good efficient way to then

1175
00:39:44,683 --> 00:39:46,363
have the insulation pushed up to the top.

1176
00:39:46,474 --> 00:39:46,764
Yeah.

1177
00:39:46,773 --> 00:39:47,454
That, that's the challenge.

1178
00:39:47,504 --> 00:39:49,923
'
Cause you've got rafters and it
holds it nice and, nice and tight.

1179
00:39:49,963 --> 00:39:50,854
Run a couple of straps- Yeah

1180
00:39:51,053 --> 00:39:51,483
… 
job's done.

1181
00:39:51,493 --> 00:39:53,464
That's a really overlooked
thermal bridge, is that sort

1182
00:39:53,464 --> 00:39:56,273
of top plate rafter connection-
Yeah … straight through there.

1183
00:39:56,403 --> 00:39:56,673
Yep.

1184
00:39:57,063 --> 00:39:57,334
See it often.

1185
00:39:57,334 --> 00:39:57,344
Anticon.

1186
00:39:57,484 --> 00:39:57,964
Anticon

1187
00:39:59,224 --> 00:40:01,204
is

1188
00:40:03,224 --> 00:40:04,963
the bane of my exis-
No, it's not that bad.

1189
00:40:04,983 --> 00:40:05,753
It's-

1190
00:40:05,944 --> 00:40:06,333
It is.

1191
00:40:06,433 --> 00:40:06,874
It is.

1192
00:40:07,233 --> 00:40:11,853
It's just one of those sort of
relics that like everyone just sort

1193
00:40:11,853 --> 00:40:15,583
of, you know, as a builder we were
talking about like intuition before.

1194
00:40:15,584 --> 00:40:18,803
You're like, "Oh yeah, that makes
sense. Foil reflects it, the heat away.

1195
00:40:18,803 --> 00:40:24,903
That's all good." The reality is it
has that trapped air insulation on it-

1196
00:40:26,142 --> 00:40:29,971
So what happens when you're, instead
of having trapped air pockets, you're

1197
00:40:29,971 --> 00:40:31,702
compressing it between a roof sheet

1198
00:40:31,862 --> 00:40:32,912
It's no longer doing

1199
00:40:32,971 --> 00:40:39,891
So now you have roof sheet compressed
nothing glass fiber, foil, sometimes

1200
00:40:39,892 --> 00:40:42,342
metal roof batten, metal truss.

1201
00:40:42,971 --> 00:40:47,622
It's just a convection pathway, like
massive thermal bridge at that point.

1202
00:40:47,851 --> 00:40:48,121
Yeah.

1203
00:40:48,471 --> 00:40:51,301
And you've got that all over
your roof structure is when

1204
00:40:51,301 --> 00:40:54,462
you're seeing like ghosting of
condensation on roofs and stuff.

1205
00:40:54,951 --> 00:40:56,082
It's where it's hitting that.

1206
00:40:56,082 --> 00:41:02,962
So the i- the, the way that anti-con is
supposed to be anti-condensation is it's

1207
00:41:02,962 --> 00:41:04,481
supposed to keep the roof sheet warm.

1208
00:41:05,211 --> 00:41:09,351
So during night sky radiation, you don't
get condensation forming on the underside.

1209
00:41:10,611 --> 00:41:14,941
At the points where that's now
compressed, you don't have that

1210
00:41:14,961 --> 00:41:20,431
continuous warmth, so you get that
condensation occurring, and now you've

1211
00:41:20,431 --> 00:41:27,161
got this saggy, essentially bowl of,
um, wool to hold that moisture there.

1212
00:41:27,181 --> 00:41:27,641
It's not even…

1213
00:41:27,721 --> 00:41:30,692
So it's not wool, it's glass fiber,
and it sucks and holds moisture.

1214
00:41:30,712 --> 00:41:31,182
Exactly.

1215
00:41:31,182 --> 00:41:31,801
It's not hydrophobic.

1216
00:41:31,801 --> 00:41:34,881
And you can see it at the gutter
where it hangs over into the gutter.

1217
00:41:35,172 --> 00:41:39,711
Go-- next time you've up cleaning your
gutters, check what that looks like

1218
00:41:39,791 --> 00:41:43,982
and how much it falls apart in your
hand, and how full of water it is.

1219
00:41:44,721 --> 00:41:47,141
It, and, you know, you get,
end up with things like phantom

1220
00:41:47,142 --> 00:41:49,962
leaks 'cause all you're doing
is rolling it 200 mil overlap.

1221
00:41:50,782 --> 00:41:54,611
So when you've got that sag, and that
fills up with water, and it tracks down

1222
00:41:55,212 --> 00:41:58,991
to that overlap, you like got a leak
in your kitchen, and you're looking for

1223
00:41:58,991 --> 00:42:00,601
it for months, and you can't find it.

1224
00:42:01,352 --> 00:42:03,561
And the other thing, so
it was designed for sheds.

1225
00:42:03,721 --> 00:42:04,141
Yes.

1226
00:42:04,771 --> 00:42:05,431
And somehow-

1227
00:42:05,501 --> 00:42:06,311
It's probably pretty good for sheds.

1228
00:42:06,532 --> 00:42:09,502
And actually somehow made its way
into the housing because I think

1229
00:42:09,511 --> 00:42:13,821
where the issue went along is it was
a quick one point five R gain for

1230
00:42:13,821 --> 00:42:16,251
the- Mm … for the energy assessor.

1231
00:42:17,121 --> 00:42:17,651
Yeah.

1232
00:42:17,651 --> 00:42:17,922
To, to,

1233
00:42:18,081 --> 00:42:21,762
to- Us-- I don't know if that's on
the topic with Jesse, but he knows

1234
00:42:21,762 --> 00:42:27,081
a lot about the history of the, um,
where anti-con came from, and yeah.

1235
00:42:27,641 --> 00:42:30,752
He's also very diplomatic and
very-- One thing you guys about Pro

1236
00:42:30,752 --> 00:42:34,001
Clima is you're really good at not
poo-pooing other brands or companies.

1237
00:42:34,191 --> 00:42:34,521
Oops.

1238
00:42:34,841 --> 00:42:35,302
You know what?

1239
00:42:36,521 --> 00:42:37,821
It's, it's, it's, it's good
to be like that when you know

1240
00:42:37,821 --> 00:42:38,742
you've got the best product.

1241
00:42:38,862 --> 00:42:39,362
Yes.

1242
00:42:39,601 --> 00:42:42,956
Now, uh- Pressed for time.

1243
00:42:43,386 --> 00:42:43,716
Mm-hmm.

1244
00:42:44,546 --> 00:42:46,826
The head to the Mindful Moment?

1245
00:42:46,896 --> 00:42:47,226
Yeah.

1246
00:42:47,636 --> 00:42:51,856
So Mindful Moment, uh, our great
friends at MEGT, Australia's

1247
00:42:52,156 --> 00:42:53,866
leading apprenticeship experts.

1248
00:42:53,866 --> 00:42:59,606
Now, Dave, the whole idea of this segment
is to maybe give advice to someone, I

1249
00:42:59,606 --> 00:43:02,025
shouldn't say young anymore, because
the government are trying to introduce

1250
00:43:02,026 --> 00:43:03,736
50-year-old apprentices into the industry.

1251
00:43:04,725 --> 00:43:06,495
Um, so anyone doing their apprenticeship-

1252
00:43:06,495 --> 00:43:07,815
50 is young.

1253
00:43:07,936 --> 00:43:08,446
Yes.

1254
00:43:08,526 --> 00:43:10,495
So yeah, so by the time you
finish your apprenticeship,

1255
00:43:10,495 --> 00:43:11,916
you're 55 looking to retire.

1256
00:43:12,305 --> 00:43:17,795
So someone might be coming into the
industry, uh, and we're generally

1257
00:43:17,795 --> 00:43:21,396
trying to find bits of, uh, nuggets
of gold that they can progress

1258
00:43:21,396 --> 00:43:23,145
their, their career to do better.

1259
00:43:23,146 --> 00:43:27,085
We've had people explain that they did
their Cert IV or diploma as a third year.

1260
00:43:27,415 --> 00:43:30,895
Now, I'd love to hear a little
bit more on, and give some advice

1261
00:43:30,896 --> 00:43:35,006
from your perspective of carpentry
was the base of what you did.

1262
00:43:35,196 --> 00:43:35,616
Hmm.

1263
00:43:35,755 --> 00:43:41,155
Carpentry gives you, first and foremost,
like the most grounded and intuitive

1264
00:43:41,155 --> 00:43:46,496
understanding of engineering, physics,
and everything, because you're putting

1265
00:43:46,496 --> 00:43:49,545
it up, you're s- feeling what works
and what doesn't work, you know?

1266
00:43:49,546 --> 00:43:53,965
It's… And you, you sort of make
mistakes along the way, and it gives

1267
00:43:53,966 --> 00:43:55,745
you that sort of opportunity to grow.

1268
00:43:55,796 --> 00:43:57,255
Well, it's instant
feedback, is what it is.

1269
00:43:57,265 --> 00:43:57,996
Instant feedback.

1270
00:43:57,996 --> 00:43:58,065
Yeah.

1271
00:43:58,065 --> 00:43:58,805
Absolutely.

1272
00:43:58,856 --> 00:43:59,456
Yeah.

1273
00:43:59,716 --> 00:44:05,836
So I think that's like just a huge, like,
benefit to sort of have that exposure and

1274
00:44:05,836 --> 00:44:08,425
experience at, at a younger age or 50.

1275
00:44:08,835 --> 00:44:09,055
Yeah.

1276
00:44:09,175 --> 00:44:09,715
Um,

1277
00:44:09,735 --> 00:44:13,755
and- I think, so, so what, so
Vili is obviously an incredibly

1278
00:44:13,756 --> 00:44:15,436
intelligent human being, right?

1279
00:44:15,436 --> 00:44:18,780
And I definitely got that, and, and I
understand that you guys kind of- Dave's

1280
00:44:18,780 --> 00:44:20,305
not … have a sort of a similar… Sorry?

1281
00:44:20,515 --> 00:44:20,685
Dave's not.

1282
00:44:21,085 --> 00:44:22,486
Da- k- now hear me out here.

1283
00:44:22,525 --> 00:44:22,665
No.

1284
00:44:22,665 --> 00:44:24,755
Try- trying, uh, you guys
kind of have a similar role.

1285
00:44:25,125 --> 00:44:28,415
However, the conversations that we're
having today just feel different

1286
00:44:28,425 --> 00:44:31,606
because you've got this understanding
of how the things go together.

1287
00:44:31,665 --> 00:44:32,105
Mm.

1288
00:44:32,185 --> 00:44:35,305
And, and I'm not saying that, you
know, one's better than the other.

1289
00:44:35,375 --> 00:44:35,656
No, it's-

1290
00:44:35,656 --> 00:44:36,685
But it's, but it's a different con-

1291
00:44:36,705 --> 00:44:38,685
Epic to have both and- But it's
a- … sit next to each other

1292
00:44:38,725 --> 00:44:41,775
it's a different- Damn it, Robin … it's
a different conversation, and, you

1293
00:44:41,775 --> 00:44:45,526
know, having a chat with you today
kind of allows me to kind of understand

1294
00:44:45,526 --> 00:44:50,825
it from maybe a more accessible
use of language than- Mm … say,

1295
00:44:50,836 --> 00:44:52,415
when Vili's explaining something.

1296
00:44:52,506 --> 00:44:53,905
Brownie in motion or whatever.

1297
00:44:53,946 --> 00:44:54,390
Do you know what?

1298
00:44:54,390 --> 00:44:56,865
Yeah, Br- yeah, and look, I get all
of that too, and, uh, we've, we've

1299
00:44:56,866 --> 00:44:59,065
got the benefit of having done this
podcast for a while now and been

1300
00:44:59,065 --> 00:45:00,166
interested in the stuff, but- Yeah

1301
00:45:00,215 --> 00:45:04,665
I think having, uh, having a
carpentry background for me

1302
00:45:04,675 --> 00:45:05,586
is a couple of things, right?

1303
00:45:05,586 --> 00:45:09,965
One, it's just that satisfaction of
being able to do stuff, you know?

1304
00:45:09,976 --> 00:45:13,305
Mm. And although my wife is constantly
on my case to chan- change handles

1305
00:45:13,305 --> 00:45:17,567
in the house- A- anyway, that's a
whole other, a whole other story.

1306
00:45:17,567 --> 00:45:18,667
But the thing is, if I wanted
to, I could- Oh, no, we'll

1307
00:45:18,667 --> 00:45:19,647
go down that avenue.

1308
00:45:19,727 --> 00:45:20,848
No, I ca- I can.

1309
00:45:21,017 --> 00:45:22,098
I can change it if I wanted to.

1310
00:45:22,258 --> 00:45:22,627
Yeah.

1311
00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:25,428
But I can also jump on the, you know,
put the tool belt on on the weekend

1312
00:45:25,428 --> 00:45:26,698
and build a, build an alfresco.

1313
00:45:26,778 --> 00:45:27,098
Yeah.

1314
00:45:27,428 --> 00:45:29,538
But then I can also jump
in here and do a podcast.

1315
00:45:29,538 --> 00:45:30,487
I can also go and do that.

1316
00:45:30,487 --> 00:45:33,218
Mm. You have then decided to
take that next step, get further

1317
00:45:33,218 --> 00:45:36,928
educated, and then come into a
role which was almost made for you.

1318
00:45:37,048 --> 00:45:37,477
Mm.

1319
00:45:37,567 --> 00:45:41,187
I guess the whole idea of this Energy
Mindful Moment is just for people to see

1320
00:45:41,187 --> 00:45:42,988
that it doesn't just stop at carpentry.

1321
00:45:43,348 --> 00:45:45,538
Like, there's so many other
opportunities for it to come from,

1322
00:45:45,817 --> 00:45:47,687
but such a great building block.

1323
00:45:47,737 --> 00:45:48,878
Yeah, absolutely.

1324
00:45:48,908 --> 00:45:53,738
And I think what's really, really cool
as well from what I've been doing is when

1325
00:45:53,738 --> 00:45:58,128
you talk to the young chippies coming
through, or, like, even apprentices and

1326
00:45:58,128 --> 00:46:03,507
stuff, there's such an eagerness from them
to, like, build better and understand.

1327
00:46:03,798 --> 00:46:06,107
And yes, it's probably, like,
the crowds I'm speaking to, but

1328
00:46:06,167 --> 00:46:07,438
I really get that impression.

1329
00:46:07,447 --> 00:46:10,528
Like, even my mates who are still
building, when I'm having a beer

1330
00:46:10,528 --> 00:46:12,997
at the pub with them talking about
it, their, like, eyes light up.

1331
00:46:13,287 --> 00:46:17,218
So if you're an apprentice or a carpenter
or any trade, and go, "Oh, we don't use

1332
00:46:17,218 --> 00:46:22,037
building physics the way we build," if
you get two 90 by 45 timbers and you

1333
00:46:22,038 --> 00:46:25,447
laminate them with some, some framing
nails to get up- You're an engineer,

1334
00:46:25,447 --> 00:46:25,747
baby

1335
00:46:25,748 --> 00:46:26,937
that's, that's called physics.

1336
00:46:26,947 --> 00:46:26,967
Yeah.

1337
00:46:26,987 --> 00:46:28,267
That's changing the
structure of the timber.

1338
00:46:28,607 --> 00:46:28,897
Yeah.

1339
00:46:28,897 --> 00:46:33,397
So you are doing it every single day at
work, screwing some ply to the building.

1340
00:46:33,467 --> 00:46:33,637
Yeah.

1341
00:46:33,638 --> 00:46:34,358
That's building physics.

1342
00:46:34,397 --> 00:46:38,187
But, but then also the houses that you
build, building physics exists there.

1343
00:46:38,447 --> 00:46:38,747
Yeah.

1344
00:46:38,827 --> 00:46:39,007
You're

1345
00:46:39,467 --> 00:46:41,127
creating an environment that- And it
always has, and whether you've, like,

1346
00:46:41,127 --> 00:46:46,337
been internalising it or not, you're
developing an intuition for it, you know?

1347
00:46:46,377 --> 00:46:51,608
Like, basic things like, you know,
where, what windows you're using, where

1348
00:46:51,608 --> 00:46:54,367
you're putting your insulation, thinking
your anticont is doing something.

1349
00:46:54,367 --> 00:46:57,068
It's not seeing that sweating
in the building when you're

1350
00:46:57,068 --> 00:46:58,237
building, all that stuff.

1351
00:46:58,237 --> 00:47:00,647
A- a- and even just knowing if
you're a renovation carpenter, you

1352
00:47:00,647 --> 00:47:03,717
just know that if you're removing
cladding from around a window-

1353
00:47:03,717 --> 00:47:04,177
Mm-hmm

1354
00:47:04,227 --> 00:47:05,937
there's a really good chance
you're gonna see rot there.

1355
00:47:05,987 --> 00:47:06,608
There's a very good chance.

1356
00:47:06,737 --> 00:47:08,987
So you have been exposed to
building physics and the- Yeah,

1357
00:47:08,987 --> 00:47:10,867
yeah … impacts of not managing it.

1358
00:47:11,297 --> 00:47:11,777
Yeah.

1359
00:47:11,857 --> 00:47:12,207
Yeah.

1360
00:47:12,207 --> 00:47:17,187
So yeah, I think it, it's exciting
to see the eagerness coming

1361
00:47:17,187 --> 00:47:18,678
up with the new generation.

1362
00:47:18,687 --> 00:47:22,277
I hope it brings more people into
the trade because I think it's- Yeah

1363
00:47:22,397 --> 00:47:23,317
super important.

1364
00:47:23,697 --> 00:47:23,887
Yeah.

1365
00:47:24,138 --> 00:47:25,267
Um, Dave- Dave … thank you.

1366
00:47:25,457 --> 00:47:26,327
Thanks for coming along, man.

1367
00:47:26,377 --> 00:47:26,927
Pleasure, guys.

1368
00:47:26,957 --> 00:47:27,327
Thank you.