Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today we are going to be discussing a case that involves the link between animal cruelty and interpersonal cruelty or neglect. So joining us from Medina SPCA is Rachel Batten. Thank you and welcome to the Junction.

Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.

I'm really glad that you're joining us because this is a really important case as far as how the importance of cross reporting and the importance of animal cruelty cases being investigated in order to help people. So, how about you start by, letting us know what your position is, like how you got to where you're at, what brought you to being a humane officer?

Sure. So, I have loved animals all my life. They've, that's always been something I've been interested in every summer day consisted of looking for toads twice a day, going out on our patrol. Um, my sister and I always did that together. So when I got to college, I was interested in maybe going towards more of the animal control aspect of a career. And I wasn't sure if I was going to get it. I wasn't sure if I even needed the degree, but I went ahead and did it anyway. So I ended up with an associates in law enforcement and a bachelor's in criminal justice studies. And, um, I graduated and I started working at a halfway house because nothing was really available. So I was just a caseworker there and I did not enjoy it, not enjoy it whatsoever. So, um, I was just looking on Indeed one day and a position for a humane officer came up and I was like, I'll never get this, but I'll just apply for fun. And to my surprise, They called me back, I had my interview, and I, by some miracle, I got in.

Well, I'm glad you did because, I mean, so far, we've worked together, I think, in three cases, so far. Yes. And you're doing a really great job, so I commend you for everything that you're doing. You're doing really, really well.

Thank you so much.

Oh, no worries. So, um, how about you let our listeners know about this case? Basically, we're looking at a case that started back in August of last year, August of 23, when you received a complaint about a person suspected of animal hoarding.

Yes. So the complaint started with a woman who is a coworker of the suspect's, Tina Robertson, they work together at Hardees and she, they all work together with Tina Robertson's daughter as well. So all three of them work together and the complainant's best friend is also next door neighbors with Tina Robertson and her daughter. So it was a weird web of things, but she was concerned because she's noticed over the time that she's worked with them that they obtain a lot of animals in short periods of time. She knows they live in a small trailer because her best friend lives next door, um, and it's a trailer park. It's a very well known trailer park to law enforcement. It's constantly a hot spot for all kinds of crimes, unfortunately. So she was concerned because the, um, the suspect Tina and her daughter always came to work smelling like animal feces. She said you could see the rings of dirt around their arms and on their body. And the daughter had actually brought one of the kittens into work one day. Um, I think it was the day before that she had given me this call and she said, the kitten, you could just, even from afar, see the fleas crawling all over it, and they were talking about how their cat had a litter of kittens, and all the kittens died. And then she started telling me that her best friend who lives next door was concerned because they don't believe there's been running water in the trailer for over a year. So her best friend had actually offered the mom and daughter if they needed to shower or wash their clothes at her trailer, they were more than welcome to because she didn't know what was going on and they always said, no, we don't need that. Turn her down. Um, so that's kind of where the complaint came from. And she, the complainant also knew that they had recently lost a dog and she said the dog was almost completely bald. And they have another one in there who's kind of on the way of being bald, and they just got a puppy. They just got some kittens. So they're just very quickly accumulating animals faster than they're going out. Um, and there's inconsiderate fleas.

And really quick, how old is the daughter at this point?

She's a minor. I believe she is 16. So I had attempted to perform a welfare check. It was the daughter who answered the door and I was, without trying to ask her too many questions because she's a minor, I was just asking her how I could get in touch with her mom, if she could call her for me. And she just really avoided the question. She said, no, she won't pick up or no, I don't know when she'll be home. So I left her with my card and just requested that she give it to her. And, Tina Robertson, returned my call a few hours later, just screaming profanities that, um, I was absolutely not allowed to come do a welfare check. Yes, her kittens died, but, and yes, her animals have fleas, but they're being treated. So it's none of my business. Go away. Um, So that was good. I will add to I could not see inside when the daughter had opened the door when I was there and I couldn't smell anything crazy from outside. But when she opened the door and the wind was blowing, I could kind of get some wafts of the fecal odor. And just in such a small space, it's already not looking good. So I went back kind of back to square one and the next day I said, you know, that's a minor, no running water, potential fleas and feces inside. I should call child services. So, I called them and hoped that they could be my way in the door as well. Um, and I was in contact with child services over a few days. She had also attempted two welfare checks and both were ignored. Tina made excuses as to why she missed them, why she couldn't come that day, so she kind of hit rock bottom. So then we were kind of just in this lull for about a week, and then I thought we were just doomed to never find out what was happening or how we could help, but it was seemingly out of nowhere, but a week later I got a call from a school counselor, and she had called me to report the daughter of Tina Robertson. She said that she had received some complaints from staff members about her smelling like animal fecal odor. And so she pulled her into her office and she asked her what was going on. The daughter told her that They have, they just got, um, a puppy and two kittens and two rabbits over the weekend and that she told her that her mom couldn't afford to pay for food for them. And she said that they just have a lot going on. And she did tell her about the litter of kittens that all of them died. Um, but the school counselor, as she was saying this, she also mentioned that this isn't the first time staff members have come to her about this child with this same complaint of animal fecal odor. She said that this has been going on since this child was in middle school. So, it has been years, at least, at least four, that they, that someone has been trying to say something and no one either took it seriously or it didn't get to the right people. But finally, with that tidbit, I was able to get a search warrant.

Yeah, that's, it's really disheartening to know that this, this minor, you know, she's like 16 at this point, but then in middle school, you know, we're talking about 10, 12 years old living in this situation. For all these years and and the people say the responsible adults in her life are noticing that there's a problem, but not being able to do anything about it. So that's that's really sad and disheartening. But then, uh, because of the information that you obtained, then you were able to file for a warrant. Is that right?

Correct. Yes. And I arranged it. We had a police assist, um, scheduled and I was also able to bring child services with me. So we got a whole group ready. And we went out, um, the daughter was home when we were there. And unfortunately, so were two even younger kids. I believe they were the grandchildren of Tina. They were age five and nine. The daughter answered the door and she said, you know, no, mom's not here, we had to tell her, I'm sorry, but we have a search warrant. We have to come in. She said, Oh, well, there's children in here. You can't. And I said, that's even more reason that we need to go in. So, um, The cops had them step out and off to the side, the poor little kids were just barefoot and dirty. And they all just kind of went to sit over in this little central community center. Um, so they were out there and we entered in, um, the, I feel bad. The, um, child services workers, they gagged as we came in. Um, it was, it was pretty rough. Um, it, this one was an odd one for me though, because, um, On top of the animal urine and fecal odor. It was also largely human. Um, especially urine. It just, it smelled human, which is not something that I always encounter. Um, so we went through, there's trash everywhere. There's, you know, The countertops are covered. There's trash overflowing out of the trash I saw one large dog and one puppy in the living room. The large dog, like they had started to say, had many spots of hair loss and just balding on the back of the neck and some spots on the side. Just the kind of random areas, but the dog was not happy to see us. He was just kind of growling and snarling. I looked over because as soon as you walk in you can see mostly everything because it's a trailer, but, there were some bowls out for food and water, and there were some, there was some food, some hard food in the bowls, but there was no water. It was actually just dried over a mix of water and feces. It was all stained with feces, including the placemats and the bowls and the containers that had the food in it. Um, but I walked further into the living room. Which was also serving as a bedroom, I believe, for Tina. The air conditioning unit was completely covered in this brown dust. The carpet was so worn down and stained that it was. almost hard, like when it's just super, super worn down. It was covered in urine stains and some fecal stains. There was some vomit on it from an animal, I believe. But it was, it was very, very worn down, very hard. So I looked further and I see a rocking chair and then I see the saddest thing of There's an iPad that's playing and there's a tiny little kitten curled up on top of it with its head down just on the iPad. Now, I went over to the kitten and I picked it up and this poor thing was just limp. It couldn't even open its eyes. They were so crusted shut with mucus and there were fleas everywhere, but when I picked it up too, I saw blood on the inner thighs and back legs and that was from the fleas. So I knew it was important to get help for that one really quick. And then a few moments later, I found his little brother. He was under a table and he looked about the same. He was a little bit bigger and a little bit, less congested looking, he could actually open his eyes at that moment. They were still full of mucus, but he could open them, both covered in fleas. And I very briefly saw two cats, but they booked it as soon as I stepped further into the room. Um, so I continued my walk in the trailer. There was no running water. They did have a large amount of, bottled water that was just kind of lining the floor of the kitchen. Just, probably like 50 jugs, just sitting there. There was some really odd looking staining and substances on the stove. It just old food. Um, and the washing room. It was just completely covered in clothes. The bathroom is probably the worst. It was the human bathroom, but it was also the animal bathroom for the cats and there were just like, you could see splatters where the feces had gone on the walls. And the puppy was also using the hallway as his bathroom. Not potty trained, but it seemed like all of the animals were kind of just going where they could. Um, where was the cleanest spot that they could even if it was on a shelf, just anywhere that they could find. But, the human bathroom, I mean, no running water, but the bathtub, the back half was black with mildew, it was, it had hair in it, it was a very odd sight, but the toilet, unfortunately, was leaking a little bit, and we lifted up the lid, and it was completely full to the lid of feces. We don't know if it's human or animal, but we closed that as quickly as we opened it. And walked back out. Um, but then it was time to go to the daughter's room and I've never encountered this before then. And since then, but I hit what felt like a wall of fruit flies. They were just swarming her doorway, just kind of near her trash. But I had to physically swat them away, or I thought I was going to breathe them in. They were just so congregated. I've never seen anything like it. Um, but then I found the two rabbits in there and the rabbits were actually in the best shape of all. They were. the most cared for, and it's probably because it was solely the daughter responsible for these. She had a nice little hutch for them, she had a little bit of food, but no water, and unfortunately they were still breathing the same air as everyone else in there, which was uncomfortable for us, the people in there, and those animals have even greater senses of smell and taste, and that's just infinite times more uncomfortable for them. So, we walked out myself and child services and they made the determination that they wanted to remove the daughter from the home and I told them that I was planning to remove the animals as well. So they said, okay, let's call Tina. Um, and she was at work at this moment and we called her. We put her on speaker phone, we tried to explain everything, and it was, it was just profanities. There weren't real sentences. Um, and we asked, you know, do you wanna be here? Do you want to come? She said, no, my son has my car. I can't leave work. So we offered for an officer to pick her up and bring her back so she could be here for this and no, nope. Did not want that. Did not wanna be a part of that. So. Thankfully,

I'm thinking about the fact that that her daughter is being taken away. Right? Like, not just the fact that that you guys are going into her house and removing the animals and, you know, just going into her personal stuff, but her child is there and strangers are getting ready to take this child. And then she's just like, nah.

Yeah, couldn't be bothered. Didn't want the cops to come to her work. So, um, she was just screaming at us. And, so I told her on the phone call, I kind of threw it in there that I was going to be removing the animals. And I tried to tell her about our probable cause hearing process, which is a mouthful to explain, especially to people who aren't even trying to listen. And I don't know if every agency is like this, but for us, whenever we seize an animal, we have to do a notice of impound and that entails saying what animals we took. And then it says at the bottom that there will be a hearing scheduled in one of two courts, depending on the jurisdiction, um, in 10 days or as close to that as possible to determine if there was enough probable cause to remove the animals. So I try to tell every person that sees that notice, you know, this is your chance to fight for that. If you're telling me what I did was wrong and didn't make sense and you don't agree with it, this is your chance to say that. This is when you want to come and present your case and I'm going to do the same thing and the magistrate is going to decide. So I tried to explain that to her. She didn't want to hear it. So I left the notice and we removed the animals. It took us a minute because one of the cats dashed out the door and we had to catch her outside, but we got her. And then we took them right to the vet.

And what was the, what was the reasoning that she gave for the, for the way that the house was so filthy and the animals were not taken care of?

Oh, it was super fun. So she didn't get to that until she called me back later to tell me I ruined her life. We had that call a few times. And she told me that she started the call after seeing the notice of impound, and she said that she can't get two days off work and she's not going, this is ridiculous. She can't afford this. She doesn't have the time. She can't get this off. She can't make that time. But, further in the conversation when I was asking her, who I used to look like this, she just kept saying, I didn't have time to clean this week. Or I've been really busy this week. I mean, it's actually alarming that she really felt that this was a short term issue or buildup. I mean, ammonia with more animals in a small space builds up quicker, but that was just, that was drenched, I mean, the walls, the wallpaper was peeling, there were stains everywhere, there were mice, I opened a cupboard and a ton of shavings and mouse droppings came out, um, I mean, that's just been a very long time in the works, and she just kept saying, I'm sorry, I'm not the perfect mom, I'm not a maid, I work every day, I didn't have time to clean this week, I didn't clean up, and it's, it's just, Just not in touch with reality of what actually is happening. I learnedd from the daughter too, when I was there that, um, six of the eight animals we took have come into their house in just the last seven months. And four of them were just in the last 13 days. I mean, they are just bringing them in. And I asked her why they did that, where they got them from. And they just, They have friends who breed or get things and change their minds and don't want them anymore. So they just decide to accept them, take them in. I think only the dog who was balding was, like, an actual adoption that they went out of their way to do. The rest they just take in and hope for the best. Um, but it's just It's alarming to see that that wasn't even a thought at all about the amount that was in there, what she was actually able to provide for and manage, and she just Thought it was just a week's problem.

Yeah. And you know, this, this goes to show as far as how animal hoarding is a mental health disease, right? Because these are people that do not realize what the state in which they're living, they don't realize the harm that they're causing, to the daughter, to the animals, like. I don't necessarily think that she was doing this on purpose, that she was harming the animals and the daughter on purpose. I really think that she's just oblivious to what she's doing. And then she fits kind of in the category of that rescue hoarder, somebody that wants to take animals in and wants to, you know, feels that they're taking really good care of them and that they're the only ones that can take care of them. Because realistically, somebody in her position. If somebody says, Hey, I can't take care of these kittens and she takes them, then somebody in there in the right state of mind is going to go to the Humane Society or call somebody and maybe say, you know, I'll foster them for a few days, but then I can't have them because clearly I'm not in a situation where I can care for these animals, but to To get to that point where you're living in so much filth and you're just don't care to the point that you show up to work and you smell like that and you don't smell it on you and you don't smell it on your child. That's like, that's really bad.

It's, it's actually very crazy how quickly and intensely people can go nose blind to that when they live in that. I mean, for normal people who don't live in that. It's such a dramatic change going from outside to in an environment like that and vice versa and they don't seem to notice it. Like, they're just so used to it that it doesn't affect them, like, honestly. Their eyes don't water, their throats don't burn, their nose doesn't burn. It doesn't give them a sore throat the next day or a migraine in that moment. They just have totally built up a resistance to it.

And one of the problems, though, is that that that level of ammonia, it's like they don't they don't sense it and it doesn't affect them as much, but it does, I say, to a deeper sense, it does affect them like it affects the respiratory tract. It can even affect their mental state, you know, and make them not not quite right. So that can also add to the to the mental health issues that that they're experiencing.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So how many animals do you end up taking from the house?

So we took eight. There were two cats, two kittens, two dogs, and two rabbits. The rabbits, again, they were best of care. I mean, she just got them days ago. so they were just two little black rexes. And they were brothers, and thankfully, I mean, they didn't even, the fleas hadn't even reached them yet, which was very good because everything else was completely infested. So, um, that was good for them. So, we just did the little flea treatment for them and they were great. The kittens, I wholeheartedly believe that those would have been deceased within another 24 hours if we hadn't gotten to them, I mean, they needed fluids, they needed antibiotics, they needed vitamin, vitamin B, um, supplements. And, you know, Respiratory supplements needed baths because they had diarrhea and their own blood running down the back of their legs. The one was completely anemic and he needed fluids. Um, but after a couple days of really intense intervention with them, they completely changed around. Um, it, they could actually, their, you know, Were a normal weight, they were a normal color, they just kind of really plumped up like kittens are supposed to be. The puppy, he was in pretty good shape. He had a few bald patches where the fleas were really going to town on him that he, he was also one of the newest, so he was, he was in pretty good shape. The white cat pixie, he was interesting to see, I mean, she was drooling when we got her, and she was, she's a beautiful, completely white cat, and you can just see all these black and brown fleas on her body, which just looked so out of place, because she's so white, um, and she was pregnant, so the doctor was able to tell that. She was early along, but she was pregnant. And the calico, at first, we thought was, um, Really, really good. She had some bald spots. She had some scabbing from the flea dermatitis, but she looked okay otherwise. That ended up not being the case. She actually ended up having FIP and that was really upsetting to hear. She really came out of her shell with us by the time we figured out what was wrong after running fecals and diarrhea samples. They all ended up having tapeworms. Um, so we treated them all for that and then she wasn't really improving. So we had to obtain the testing for that. And by the time we found out everyone was just so in love with her, they were devastated, but we're really lucky in Ohio because they have something called the FIP warriors and we were able to get in touch with them and they agreed to take her on for a six month treatment and foster and she ended up getting adopted through that.

That is amazing. Yeah, I guess I mean, just not changing the subject completely, but FIP up to not too too long ago, it was deadly, like it was just a death sentence. And now there's there's FIP treatment available and it's a game changer for cats. And I am so glad that you guys took the time to, to care for her and to test her and to figure out what was wrong with her and then to go ahead and treat her because not everybody, you know, would have done that. Some people would have given up on her. So, so thank you for that.

Of course. We, I mean, she just, it was. It was, it's devastating to see such an incredible growth of a personality to just be for nothing. I mean, not for nothing, but just to end in a way like that. No one, no one could do it. No one wanted to do it. And we, we knew FIP treatment isn't always a hundred percent, but It can be tried. And if she's at least comfortable because she was acting completely normal, despite her symptoms, she just seemed to have a good quality of life, a good, happy personality. So we figured we'd try it. And I think she did really well.

So at the 10 day bond hearing that what happened, did she show up or did she not come in?

I am very surprised to, still surprised, that she did show up. She came in very last minute in sweatpants and a hoodie and tennis shoes. And my prosecutor, uh, he greeted her and he asked her if he, if she'd like to discuss beforehand, anything, if they want to work things out, talk about a surrender, whatever it is. Passed this hearing and he just screamed, no, very loud. Um, and that was, that was it. That's all she wanted to say. So when it was our turn for the, hearing the judge, or the, I believe it was the magistrate. He came up, asked me what happened. I told my story and then he asked Tina Robertson if she had anything to say, like her side of the story, her explanation. And she just sat back, like she wouldn't look at anyone. And she just said, no. So we just kept going. And, um, as typical part of the probable cause hearing one way, even if, even if we win or even if they lose, they still have an opportunity sometimes to continue fighting for ownership of their animals. And it's what's called a care deposit. Um, so you just, Calculate cost of care for one month of all of the animals, and then you set that for a deadline that that has to be paid for them to still be in consideration of former ownership to be determined later. So we set the cost of care, and the judge, you know, looked at her and asked that, and she just kept saying, I won't have the money. I won't have the money. I don't have money. And He kept, I don't even remember at this point what he was trying to get from that communication because I think he just was asking her if it's okay or something about the deadline but she just kept screaming that she wouldn't have the money and so he asked her if she just wanted to surrender it and waive that whole process or if she wanted to try and she just kept screaming I don't have money. So then he let her do the care bond anyways. So that postponed things that we could do for the animals for about a month, just for her to not pay, which she said she wouldn't. And she, I mean, she stormed out of there, she was shaking the entire time. I thought she was going to come after us physically. I was a little bit nervous, but we, we technically won the probable cause hearing, but they gave her that month, she didn't pay it. So after that point, then we filed for ownership and we won total ownership of the animals.

And then at that point, then you placed them for adoption.

Yes, it it took some time, especially with the adult dog who was balding. I mean, his his skin was very, very hard to work with. He was bleeding from his feet with yeast infections, and he just had some very intense allergies and as well as response to the flea dermatitis. So he needed some serious medications. He needed medicated baths. But by the end of when he was adopted, it didn't feel like as much hair growth as it actually was until I went back and really looked at the first day, but a lot of his hair grew back in. He was shiny. He was a sweet boy. He, He was very protective at first, but, um, he ended up really coming out of his shell as well. He was very, very protective. No one could go near his kennel. We had to have a special system of getting him in and out safely for everyone, and it took a while, but when he finally came around, that was the greatest. Um, his, his skin took a while, but eventually we got that, and we found a really, really great adopter for him. And yes, all of the animals have been adopted.

That's great, because it also makes you think about the fact that he was, he was protective and he was, you know, fractious, but he was in so much pain, right? Like his feet were, were sore, were bleeding, his skin was miserable, so animals, and a lot of people think that aggression, like dogs are bad. And dogs are not necessarily bad. Dogs usually react to something. And in his case, if he's in so much pain, anything that, that goes around him, he's going to feel that it's going to hurt. So you guys showing him kindness and helping control that discomfort. then actually made him be the dog that he's always been, that he hasn't been able to show.

Yeah, he was actually adopted, um, I found out, I found this out from the daughter when she was telling me where some of the animals came from and he was actually adopted as a stray from the dog shelter just a county over from us, and they said that he did have those skin issues to a certain extent before he left, but they had gotten much worse since he was infested with fleas, and not being medicated or given those baths that he very clearly needed when he was living there. So it took some time for the turnaround, but physically and emotionally he got there, which was really awesome to see.

So ultimately, she is being charged with animal neglect, animal cruelty and neglect, but then also child endangerment and neglect, right? Was that the same prosecutor managing both cases?

No, it was a totally different public attorney who was with the child case. Um, I was actually called to that to be a potential witness that day of the trial. And again, she showed up in sweatpants and just a hoodie and the rest of her family was, I was sat in the middle of them and it was Tina on one side and the rest of her family on the other because thankfully child services had been able to work it out that she was able, the daughter was able to stay with the grandmother, um, so she could at least stay with family. And then, that side of the family was arguing that they wanted to keep custody of her against, um, Tina, and I believe that was most of the child endangerment case. It was more fighting over custody rather than the conditions and what happened. Um, and I was just nearby and before the trial could even start, they were asking Tina, like, do you understand what's happening? Do you know these processes? And she just kept screaming that her prosecutor hasn't told her anything. She doesn't know this or this. And, um, so they were trying to explain things to her and then she just shouted, I don't care, keep her. And, she just essentially waived the entire trial then and there and said, okay, you guys get custody. And I think that's kind of where they left it. They just assigned custody to the other side of the family. And I don't know if she's on any sort of probation with them at all. I don't know what that entails because I know usually the goal is to return the child with the parents, but since another parent was involved, they may have just left it at that. Um, so I'm not really sure where they landed with the endangerment. It may have just been pled out.

I looked up the docket from the municipal court as far as the child endangerment part. And what, what I found was that because she didn't have any prior Uh, history of it, but she didn't have any prior history because nobody had actually done anything about it. But because she didn't, it was uh, it was considered a first offender, they gave her pre trial diversion. Which pre trial diversion is basically a way to avoid court, so they give people the opportunity to go into a diversionary program, and I believe that she was sent to a place called Alternative Paths, which is like prevention of problems as far as, like, violence prevention, and Uh, you know, cruelty and neglect and that kind of stuff, prevention. So the good thing with it, if there is a good thing, is that at least she was given the, the opportunity to correct her problems by going into a treatment program, because somebody like her, you know, fines and jail are not necessarily going to curb her attitude and and the way that she is. She needs actual help and assistance, which then actually brings me back to after the child endangerment piece was taken care of, then the animal neglect stuff was done. So what happened with that one?

Yes. So she took a plea on our charge as well. And, um, it basically put her on, I want to say it's a five year probation where she's not allowed to own animals. Um, and she has to seek mental health treatment. Um, sometimes. You can, in, at these points, uh, agencies can ask for money or for reimbursement. I know that I typically, if I can avoid it, I do not ask for that because most of the people we encountered don't have it to begin with. And that's half of their problem, um, especially with these overwhelmed caregivers or rescue caregivers. So I just was more concerned about the mental health treatment and no animals. The only downside of no animals on probation, um, and something that's been brought up a lot in appeals is that I can't go out to check on that probation then, only if I have probable cause to believe that animals are being actually kept in that house when they're not supposed to be, otherwise it's just a hope that she's going along with it, but it's So I believe that's about five years. I can't remember if he asked for an indefinite ban afterwards on animal ownership or not, but I know he does that sometimes.

Yeah, I know that she was fined like $150 and she had to pay for court costs. Uh, but yeah, one of the good things about that five year probation, though, is that it's not just an ownership ban, but she can also not live in a residence with animals. So it is a complete and total ban. It eliminates the excuse of, well, it's not my dog. It's my roommate's dog or, you know, somebody else's dog, and I just happen to live here. So it, you know, if it, it's unfortunate that it's an unreported probation, that you can't just go in and check in on her. But if there is any evidence of any animal being in the same residence as her, then that is a violation of her, of her probation.

Absolutely.

And with the mental health counseling, again, it's, it's really nice that she basically got mental health counseling for both, right? For the neglect, she got treatment treatment program, but then she was mandated mental health counseling for the hoarding. So it, if anything, I mean, this is, this is overall a really good case in that, that again, the, you know, this child does is being neglected for such a long period of time. Nothing is being done. And it takes a humane officer to come in and help the child. It brings us back to years and decades ago, when that was kind of the job of animal control, right, it was taking care of, of children and, and the public, the community, the society. So, you know, it's, it's the importance of that mandatory reporting. The importance of getting everybody involved. The importance of you contacting child protection services so that they can come in. They've been having some, such a hard time for so many years trying to investigate on this child and it just took you a few weeks because, you know, you had enough evidence about the animals to be able to get a warrant And then this this child it sucks that it took so long for her to get out of that house But hopefully now she's in an at a better environment where she can you know get help hopefully, you know, she gets help as well to to be able to move on from this and then you know You know, be, be a safer, be a safer place for both Tina, the daughter, and animals in general.

Mm hmm. Yeah, it, it was a very, very positive outcome of everything. Um, and I believe child services was even helping to assist with payments so that she could get her water turned back on. Um, I believe they were helping her with some of the bills in that way, which was very nice of them.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we need to, to understand the reasons, like, it's not about excuses, uh, like, I don't excuse any of the things that she has done, you know, she's an adult, she's made her decisions, and she was being rude about it, so it's not like she was being welcoming to, to help and assistance, and she was being oblivious about, about her kid, so I absolutely do not excuse anything that she's done. But, she is somebody that is going to be a member of society like it's not like we can say, "okay you did this and we're just gonna send you to an island to live and we're never gonna see you again", right? It's like she's gonna continue to be a member of this society. So we need to figure out how to make her an okay member and, you know, preferably productive but at least an okay member of this society so that again, this is not happening again

Yeah, yeah, and that's why Mental health counseling in this is so important because that's, that's truly the mindset, the mind is behind all of this, and it's hoarding itself, it's completely, it'll never stop without some kind of mental health intervention. It has a 100 percent recidivism rate if it's not addressed. And I'm I'm sure even just the other blind eye kind of denial positions are probably a part of that as well.

Yeah, I'm glad that the, that the friend stepped up and the neighbor stepped up and they, you know, they cared enough. You can, you know, I'm sure that Tina thinks that they were just ratting her out or tattling or whatever, but realistically they did it because they cared, right? They cared about the whole situation and she may not see it this way, but they, they actually helped her. They actually made it better.

Absolutely. She got her water back on and hopefully she's had the time to clean up so she doesn't have to live in that anymore. There's hopefully no animals creating more waste in that environment. So once she can kind of get that out, I mean, it's, I really hope that she does turn it around and stick with it and then one day she can see that it was a good, good, bad time.

Right.. Yes, and that she can get, you know, start working back on her relationship with her daughter and hopefully mend that, because, I mean, kids need their parents.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, thank you so very much for all the work that you did in this case. Because you did a great job from the pictures that you took, that you sent, and just the, the work and the time that you took, the effort that you took in creating the reports and getting the warrants. You know, I, um, I hold you in really high regards as far as your ability to do your job. So I'm glad that, that life took you through this path and you ended up as a Humane Officer in Medina County, Medina SPCA. Um, so yep, I really appreciate what you're doing.

No, same to you. I appreciate it. I'm very blessed and lucky to be able to do my job and I appreciate you did. Unfortunately, not often that you find vets who are interested and want to be involved in this kind of ordeal. So it's you're a very lucky find.

No worries. I'm glad that I'm glad that I was able to to help and I'm glad that we're here to be able to share this with our audience so that you know, there's always somebody out there that may may have that friend that is in trouble. That may have that family member and they don't know what to do. They don't know if something can be done. So hopefully this gives them a little bit of hope that if they look for help, look for assistance, that they may be able to turn a bad situation into a good outcome.

If you see something, say something. It can't hurt.

Well, thank you again so very much for being part of this, of this episode and for sharing your information. And for everybody who's listening, thank you for listening and thank you for caring.