So on this episode, we're delighted to welcome Alan Hiscox, who's the Director of Safety for the British Horse Society. Welcome Alan.

Hello, and thanks very much for the invitation for this podcast.

And thank you for coming on. So Alan, my first question is, because a lot of people will not know what the British Horse Society is. What actually is it? What do you do?

Okay, that's a, that's a very good question to start on. We are the, um, the largest EQU charity in the uk and, we cover four main areas, uh, the education, which is teaching people how to ride and how to look after, horses and, and, um, anything to do with that. So we have some, some stages there that people can, can take assessments. Then we have the welfare department that really looks after, the welfare of horses out and about in the UK. You know, especially perhaps if people see a horse in a field that's, undernourished, they can, they can let us know. Then there's the access department that looks after all the safe off road access for bridleways and getting horses, actually, which is very important, off the roads. And then there's the safety, team, which is, uh, I head up. We're a small but perfectly formed team of three to cover the whole of the UK. And, we are the one stop shop for anything and everything that may cause a carriage driver or horse rider, you know, an issue with safety. So it could be low flying aircraft, drones, slippery road surfaces. Dogs, you know, it's that great one, it's okay, my dog is okay with the horses, but my horse might not be okay with dogs, so we work with, uh, Dogs Trust, RSPCA and Kennel Club. Uh, fireworks, you know, far too many injuries are caused with fireworks being let off around horses. but I would say our main thrust, and 95 percent of our work, is all about, safety of horses and, uh, riders and carriage drivers and horses on the roads. And that's what we're really focused on with the, with the safety team. So, in a nutshell, that's the British Horse Society, and that is the safety team.

Yeah. massive, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's a whole new world, I think, For somebody who isn't a horsey person, maybe then they may never have heard of you. We see you a lot at conventions and sort of like industry events, so driving instructors know about you and are hopefully passing on messages to their learner drivers. But, we just felt that there that you could bring a whole load of information to our listeners, things that they might never have thought about.

Well, yeah, I hope so. And as you say, it's a bit of a, an anomaly horses, sometimes everybody sees them in the fields, but when you actually see a horse on a road or a carriage on the, on the road, you know, it can sort of raise the eyebrows. And, you know, I know there's a lot of drivers out there that sort of go, Oh, well, What do I do now? So, yeah, it's a really important, um, subject and, one that the British Horse Society really wants to, you know, involve ourselves with driving instructors, and the police and road safety partnerships and local authorities just to increase that, awareness of, what to do if you see a horse on the roads.

So one of the questions my, my learners had was, and I thought I knew the answer, but I knew I was going to do this. Was why do horses use the road?

Well, no, that's, that is a very, very good question. One that we, often have to explain, because, as I mentioned, the access team with the bridleways, there's just not enough safe off road access out there. So, horses and riders and carriages will be going from one bridleway to another bridleway, or a stable to a bridleway, or There just might not be any off road access that they can use around the area they live, so they have to go on the road. And believe you me, the horse doesn't want to be there, the rider doesn't want to be there. It'd be so much better, you know, if we were off the road on a by the way, you know, riding through a forest or a field. So yeah, when you see a horse on the you know, please don't think, oh, it's there to slow us down. It's there because We are trying to find safe off road access, or because there's no off road access anywhere there. So, um, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting question and you're right, one that people say, well, why are you on the roads? Yeah.

And it's just their perspective was, well, there's fields. Surely they can,

Yeah,

trying to get you go into a difference that's not owned by the horse and then maybe not allowed to go there. So to get from point A to point B, they have to use. the roads as such.

And there are many, many landowners who allow horses onto their lands, you know, in sort of permissive by the ways, which is great. But again, there still is not enough of that. And then we've got, the broader ways that are defined on maps that we can use and areas that horses can get off the roads. And yeah, there's nothing better. Than being out in the open where there are no cars and no roads, but unfortunately, an awful lot of our, our work and exercise has to be on the roads.

I seem to be talking a lot here. I'm looking at Tracy as I say that. Because I've got loads of questions. Obviously, I deal with, where we live, we're fairly close to the country. And we, I won't say we see them often, horses on the road, but we do come across them. but if you're living in somewhere like London, people that then move out to the country, I was shocked to see horses on the road and they think, well, I thought that was only part of the theory test that has a perception and they and they were going, what happens now? How do I deal with this? So the question I'm going to put it to you is what would you like to see? Drivers do when they meet a horse on the road.

Okay, well, it's actually, there's four simple messages that we try and, uh, ask drivers to, to adhere to. And in fact, they're in the highway code now, which is great. You know, we were part of the highway code review, um, over two years ago, and we asked for our message to be put in there. So. It's, it's, if I see a horse on the road, and actually, that first sentence is quite telling, because not just a ridden horse, it could be a carriage horse, it even could be a horse that is in Dartmoor or the New Forest or Exmoor. So it's, it's, if I see a horse on the roads, then I will slow down to a maximum of 10 miles an hour. I will not sound my horn or rev my engine and when safe to do so, I'll pass the horse, wide and slow, at least two meters distance and then drive slowly away. And each of those messages really are, they're important on their own, but together they will make a safe pass of the horse. So yeah, it's it is, I suppose, quite simple messaging. And it is, in fact, a behavioral change technique. and the reason the way I was, I was there. I'm not an academic, by the way, in case you haven't gathered that. I went to a road safety conference, and a road safety professional came up and said, Do you know you've got a, um, a behavioral change technique there? And I said, No, no, I didn't. And he said, Well, yes, you have. It's the, if I see a horse on the road, then I will. And then the full messages. So, as that was part of the, what the Department of Transport wanted to get into the Highway Code, they wanted it to be behavioral change. Then our messaging really sort of fitted in there. So. Um, yeah, four simple, phrases, that will make up for a slow pass. That's a safe pass as well as a slow pass. Yeah,

Yeah. And I think that's so important because you mentioned earlier about a driver having that thought of. what do I do? But as soon as somebody has that thought, what do I do? That's likely to trigger feelings of uncertainty and nerves and anxiety. So being able to put across a really clear message helps fill in that gap. So if somebody thinks, what do I do? Oh, yes, I remember. If I see a horse, I will. And then those four simple messages. And that helps not only tell the driver what they need to do to have that safe pass, but it helps them do it in a confident way because they've got that knowledge behind them. So they're doing it with certainty as well. Yeah.

and then some, you know, every time a driver or a learner sees a horse on the road, they can use it as an opportunity to sort of learn and increase their skills. So I suppose, um, you know, rather than, Oh, there's a horse, it's an opportunity to bring those four messages in and completely say, and it makes, it makes the horse feel good. It makes the rider feel good. and hopefully it makes the driver feel good. And that's another message that we've got into the highway code is remember there's three brains at work here. There's the rider, the driver, but don't forget the horse's brain. And, we all want to feel good when we're, when we're driving, and if it makes other people feel good by what we've done, I think that's, um, that's quite, uh, uh, an important thing as well. So, yeah, it's something that we've. Not, I wouldn't say accidentally, but, um, we put a lot of thought into it, but to actually know that it was a behavioral change technique as well, really sort of, put the icing on the cake, really, for, for us, you

I suppose for you it's knowing that you're doing the right things as well there, isn't it? If someone else has come up and said, I like that, this is a behavioral change and this is what we, we want to see, you know, because this is how we change the way people act on the road,

I've got to say, riders have been letting us know that since, um, certainly the highway coaches came, changes came in, they have noticed, albeit small, a difference, and, and The other thing I think is, is, is really, important is a lot of our, our members and our riders let, let us know that actually the new drivers and the younger drivers tend to be the ones that are passing them. More safely, if you like, because they have had that instruction from, from the driving instructors and they are aware of the safety concerns of, the, the horses. So, yes, it's sort of, an encouraging, time, I think, for, for horse riders, but we're not taking our, to you, the driving term, we're not taking our, our, our foot off the accelerator in any shape or form. We're actually, uh, making a very steady progress to, um, trying to increase that awareness of all drivers.

I think if we can all work together, you know, it makes everybody happy. And that's what we try and put across in our teachings. But I suppose I always like to look at the other side of the coin as well, you know. what might be the dangers if we don't follow those four steps, you know? What might be the dangers that could happen?

Well, horses are blind animals, you know, they're, um, I don't want to sort of anthropomorphise this too much, but they're, they're acting to a risk assessment that's thousands and thousands of years old. So, uh, if they see something or, sense something that they're unsure of, then that sort of flight instinct will come into their brain. Hence the driver, rider, but don't forget the horse's brain. And okay, horses have been domesticated for, many, many years. So they have, in some sense, has been desensitized. to certain things, but you will never, ever take that flight instinct, that's the evolution that will take the flight instinct away from the horse, you know, and having been in the mounted police for, for many, many years, you know, even police horses, the best trained police horse will react to something. It might only be a flick of an ear or a movement of a muscle because they have gone through the training and be desensitized, but they still have that flight instinct. So if they're, you know, unsure of something, they're either going to try and remove that risk, maybe by kicking out, they're going to reduce that risk by moving away from it. Or they're going to avoid that risk by turning around and going the other way. But, if drivers, can, you know, adhere to those four messages, then they help the horse accept that risk. And then, it may still react, but only just to a small extent. So, if just sort of getting into your, your mind again, that, you know, their, their brain is working, and they've got, you know, incredible senses, so their eyesight You know, having the eye on either side of the head. They've got monocular and binocular sight. And they are set up to see anything and everything that might cause them an issue. So, you know, we've got our eyes on the front of our, our, our heads, they, they can see things behind them. So, you know, if, if you're approaching from behind, they, and, and their ears, they know that the car's there. So that whole, 10 miles an hour, two meters distance really does. Does make a difference. So, yes, a horse could move suddenly to one side. They could turn around and go the other way. It might not be your car that's caused the issue. There might be a bit of flapping plastic further on in the road. And that brings me on to another subject. If a, if a horse rider, You know, asks a driver to stop or slow down is for a reason, because they may have seen something further up ahead that they know may cause their horse an issue. So, if, and it says in the highway code, he riders signals. You know, if they see something and ask you to stop, then they, they know that there's something that may cause, uh, may cause an issue or, or, or slow down. So it's, as you, as you mentioned, it's a partnership approach of everybody, the driver, the rider, you know, and the horse wants to play its part as well. so yeah, in the, in the worst, in, uh, you know, worst case scenario, you know, the horse may sort of suddenly move across, and block the car or, you know, hopefully it doesn't hit it, but, and, and cars and metal boxes and, and, you know, horses are quite fragile creatures, but that's what we want to avoid by all these, these messages and, and thoughts.

I think it's great, because it's great to know what to do, but then the dangers, but also Us working together and, the rider, actually, their position, and obviously you know this more because you're, you're so much higher, you can see over hedges, you can see further, you can see, you know, probably more than us, sitting in this car, you know, so it's, it's, it's nice if we can, notice the body language of, of the rider, because they will tell us information as well. And I think that's one of the skills that we don't do enough is, is notice the rider. The rider and the horse are working in tandem, but I think if we can use that, it's a big clue for us as to what to do.

Yeah, it is, and then, you know, safe passes, it does, it makes the rider feel good. And hopefully you will get an acknowledgement if they can take their hands off the reins or, you know, a small, and another thing that I don't want to sort of stress it's not just overtaking is if you are approaching a horse coming towards you. So, you'll be still asked for those those messages because You know, you approaching a horse that's coming towards you, all those factors can still come into play. So it's not just overtaking a horse, it's if you're approaching a horse, on a rural road, we ask for those slow down to the 10 miles an hour and try and keep that two meters distance. Um, because yeah, all right, the horse has got the car in its sight, it's not behind you, but still, it's still a moving object. And And one that could cause the horse, you know, some, some anxiety, especially, especially at higher speeds. Yeah, that, that quick moving. So that's the thing we see a lot of is, um, okay, drivers think, yes, I'm going to overtake the horse and I'm going to overtake it really slowly. But when you're coming towards the horse and you're on the other side of the road, they still think, Oh, it's still okay to go past that, you know, 40 miles an hour or so, where in actual fact, if the car was just to slow down as well, it would make, everything so much, so much better.

I think that's a really important point because I can imagine drivers thinking it's only if you're overtaking. So I think making that really crystal clear is really important. But it is because, if you are approaching that horse, you're on the wrong side of the road. I suppose not so many learners, because, you know, we, we talk about it, but I know drivers that will treat it as a parked car because the horse is so slow, they treat it as a parked car and just don't, adhere to the fact of what might happen, and I, you know, they do just, I see it so many times where we've waited back, you know, we can't see, and all of a sudden this car that's coming towards them just doesn't slow down. I just, I don't know what is actually going through the mind of that driver, I would love to know, I can guess, but I would just, I would just love to know, I just think it's one of those intriguing thoughts that I have.

Yeah, yeah, no, it is, absolutely,

I like the way that you've brought in talking about the three brains. Working together or four, even if you've got another car approaching as well, because this is one of the conversations we had this morning before coming on. We were talking about taking up the different positions, putting yourself in the shoes of. Each of the different positions to consider what that might feel like. So whether that's the horse, whether it's the rider, whether it's the driver coming the other way, instead of only thinking about you as a driver and how it impacts you when you start to take account of how everybody else is feeling. That's when you. Out to that bigger picture and you are much better able to make a more balanced decision on what you're gonna do when you are factoring everybody in. So that's exactly what we were gonna talk about. And you've

Well, if you want to get a horse rider's point of view, if you go to our website, sphs. org. uk, Go the dead slow page and then you, there is a film there that we made. it's actually on a virtual reality headset if, and that's used by road safety partnerships, but you can, um, use it on your tablet. it's from the point of view of a rider when a car goes past too fast or too close and you can move around the 360, film and in fact the horse then rears up so you can see exactly what it's like to be, on a horse when, when that happens. So, yeah. We're not going to say to people, well, we're going to put you on a horse and then we're going to show you what it's like because, that's not quite what we're after there, but it's as close as we can get to for a non rider to, to be on a, on a horse. And yeah, it's challenging, you know, even for experienced riders. Um, and actually the highway code uses the term intimidation. You know, um, it can be intimidating passing cyclists, pedestrians, horse riders at inappropriate speeds. And we all know, just as walking along a road, when cars whiz past you, and on bicycles, imagine what that's like if you're actually sitting on a horse as well. So, and we know that, you know, drivers don't want to be intimidating, but just the very fact that they are passing, A little bit too fast or too close is, is intimidating and I can tell you, riding a horse around London, I mean, I know you said that people don't see horses around London, but riding a police horse around London, even though it was a police horse, the speeds and how close people got. You know, it even had stirrups clipped with vehicles going, going too close. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's challenging and it's a, it's a very strong word, intimidation, I know, but, it can, um, raise the hairs on the back of your neck, shall we say, a little bit when, vehicles pass, inappropriately.

is, is scary and I've, I've seen it, a horse kick out and actually kicked a car,

Yeah.

it damage.

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and that, that's why, you know, we asked for that two

Yeah,

Um, and the other thing is, if you're on a rural road, and maybe it's, you know, single or one and a half, sort of lanes, Uh, what we're asking, and it says in the Highway Code as well, just hold back until you can meet those, those clearances, and what, and this is the other thing, there's responsibilities on, you know, no pun intended, it's a two way street, so we're saying to horse riders, you know, there's certain areas of the Highway Code, and there's certain responsibilities that we have when we're on the roads, as all road users have responsibilities, So, um, you know, we're asking horse riders to be aware, you know, look behind, see where everything was going on. And if you're, you know there's a car behind, then perhaps, you know, if there's a gateway you can pull in to allow the car to go, or, you know, if you're feeling confident, just crotch on to the next area where the car driver can pass. So, yeah, there's ways that, we can help drivers in the same way that we're asking drivers to help us as well.

I don't think that's really important. I suppose it goes back to that. We're working together, aren't we? And if we all work together, you know, everybody's happy. Um, and that is part of what we, we do on the roads, isn't it? You know, we, we are.

It's that whole thing about, you know, mutual respect, and if you haven't got that mutual respect, that's when you've got trouble, on whichever side it is, you know, riders respecting, car drivers, cyclists respecting horse riders, car drivers respecting cyclists and horse riders, so yeah, that whole thing, and, you know, as the FT say, everybody respecting. Has a right to feel safe on the roads, and that's what we're all, we're all aiming at.

Brilliant. And it's been a real insight as well to someone that's a horse rider, because we're coming from a driving instructor, you know, we're more sort of like, okay, what would you do? How would you deal with this? Because we want to get them into their mind and start thinking about where you might find these, these situations, what might happen. But coming from a horse rider like yourself, and you know, what you do as a profession, too. I think just highlights the importance of, what everybody is trying to do on the roads. And I think that's the really important message, isn't it? You know, your message, what might happen? What will you see? What will you do? Yeah. And it's, it's, it's just, Well, hopefully it's helped people to just think a little bit more about what happens next time I meet that situation. Yeah, I couldn't think of my words for a minute then. I just lost my track, But yeah, I think it's an important message that we don't normally, get out to people, you know. Just, it's another person, road user, on the road, and we need to respect that, like we would if it was a cyclist, as if it was a vulnerable road user, you know, again, just, just start thinking. And put yourself in those shoes, put yourself in the different positions, just to get a feel for what it might be like. So, Alan, where can people find those resources?

Okay. Yeah. If you go onto, our website, so it's, uh, bhs.org uk, and actually on the landing page, you'll, if you just scroll down just a, a little bit, you'll see the Dead slow campaign message, and then you can go straight through to our, our pages, uh, for the safety pages, and then you can go on to all, there's some films there, there's some messages from riders. Uh, there's the, uh, Virtual Reality 360 film. There's the Look Out for Laura film, which shows, a nurse who works during the day in a children's department, and then she rides, for sort of relaxation, and there's a firefighter as well, shows what, um, Julie does during the day, and then she relaxes by, by riding a horse on the road. So we're trying to humanize the horse rider as well, because that's the other thing. You're, you're driving along, yeah, that, that horse rider could be a nurse, could be a doctor, could be a firefighter. And so, yeah, there's, again, we're coming back to this, the respect, isn't it, for everybody. so there's, there's lots and lots of things on our website. And as you know, we, we'd be very happy to come along to any sort of driving instructor. Events and, um, and talk to driving instructors because, you know, you, you are very important in the whole process of getting people to, to drive safely on the road. So, yeah, anything that, um, that we can do to help, uh, we'd be delighted to do that.

Fantastic. Is there anything else that you would like to cover today?

Um, just reemphasizing those four messages, you know, the, if I see a horse on the road, then I will slow down to that maximum 10 miles an hour, I will be patient, I won't sound my horn or rev my engine, and when safe to do so, I'll pass slow and wide, at least two meters distance, and then drive slowly away, and I, I think, you know, they call me a one trick pony, and I call myself a one trick pony because, you know, That really is the whole, the whole messaging and what we've talked about this morning as well is all around the edges that adds context to why we're asking those those messages. So no, thank you very much for the opportunity and great to see you again. And I look forward to meeting you again at another driving instructor conference. So yeah, thanks for the opportunity.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. I really hope that people have found that helpful and informative and now have a little bit of extra knowledge maybe to feel less nervous next time they meet a horse on the road. So we have one final question that we always ask people. Alan thought he was done. Alan's face has now just changed. So, thinking back to when you was learning to drive, Alan, what did you find most challenging?

That's a very, very good question. I was in the police action. I got, I got taught by a police officer. instructor, because, that's, that's the way it was, you, you joined as 18 years old, and you, um, they, they taught you to drive, and the thing that I found most challenging was clutch control, believe it or not, yeah, I can't even remember if there were automatic cars back in those days, I don't know, but, yeah, the clutch, the clutch control, but once, I'd mastered the clutch control, so everything else sort of, I didn't have to worry about, you know, if you're going to judder once you actually started moving smoothly. So, yeah, I suppose clutch control.

Brilliant. Perfect. Lovely. And so, what piece of advice would you give to our listeners, any of our listeners

who are struggling with clutch control at the moment? Love Crikey, um, I suppose it's, it's not, it's not to sort of panic and think too much in to it and just relax and get that, get that, that feel. I can remember just Being able to almost feel when the clutch was starting to, um, to engage. So, and as soon as I sort of took that whole, Oh God, the car's going to jump or not. It just, and then it just, it just falls into place, I suppose. Relax and, um, just treat it as a, as another part of the whole driving experience really. And, um, gosh, yes. I don't know. I really put me on the spot. Yeah. I don't know. It took me a little while. I've got to say, you know, and being in a, in a police car that started going, do, do, do, do, do, it put even more pressure on me. But, um, yeah, I suppose practice makes perfect. There you go. We'll go for that one.

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that because we do like to ask our guests because that's really helpful for listeners who are struggling with things. The more that we can share that actually we've all struggled with different things, even if we don't now, that it just, it just normalizes it. So, um, yeah, brilliant. Thank you.

Practice makes perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. There, that's it, I think.

Well, there we go. We've got that. Love it. Well, Alan, thank you so much for joining us today and giving up your time. Um, it's been brilliant. Yeah. Thank you very

okay. All the best.