1 00:00:16,648 --> 00:00:19,948 Sir Daniel: Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast. 2 00:00:19,948 --> 00:00:21,588 I am DJ Sir Daniel 3 00:00:22,182 --> 00:00:26,272 Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments 4 00:00:26,272 --> 00:00:28,002 as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III. 5 00:00:28,492 --> 00:00:38,652 And Sir Daniel, we are going into the way back machine, into a time in music 6 00:00:38,652 --> 00:00:44,282 history, uh, where we got to watch some of the most popular contemporary 7 00:00:44,322 --> 00:00:50,632 artists strip down what they were doing on record and give us these, 8 00:00:50,662 --> 00:00:53,412 uh, acoustic style performances. 9 00:00:53,432 --> 00:00:55,412 And it was a whole moment in time 10 00:00:56,674 --> 00:00:57,844 Sir Daniel: It definitely was. 11 00:00:57,884 --> 00:01:03,614 At this point, MTV, we've moved into the late '80s, early '90s. 12 00:01:04,404 --> 00:01:13,204 Um, I think for historical context, at this point, MTV is the video, 13 00:01:13,684 --> 00:01:18,514 um, platform that all the record labels are sending their artists 14 00:01:18,524 --> 00:01:23,464 to because at this point, MTV has diversified a lot of their programming. 15 00:01:23,934 --> 00:01:25,944 Um, it's not just music videos. 16 00:01:25,964 --> 00:01:27,514 They have live shows. 17 00:01:27,514 --> 00:01:32,534 They have different types of programming to make, to keep you tuned into 18 00:01:32,564 --> 00:01:36,584 MTV 24 hours a day, which is what they wanted 'cause it's on cable. 19 00:01:37,304 --> 00:01:41,834 And, um, also, as I stated, it's the early, it's the late '90s going… 20 00:01:41,904 --> 00:01:45,944 It's the late '80s going into the early '90s, and at this point, I 21 00:01:45,984 --> 00:01:50,274 think, Jay Ray, we've, the pivotal moment that we can think about is 22 00:01:50,274 --> 00:01:52,944 the Milli Vanilli situation where 23 00:01:53,056 --> 00:01:54,006 Jay Ray: exactly it. 24 00:01:54,056 --> 00:01:54,996 That's why we needed 25 00:01:55,064 --> 00:01:55,484 Sir Daniel: they caught, 26 00:01:56,054 --> 00:02:01,464 they were caught lip syncing or accused of lip syncing, and it just became a moment 27 00:02:01,504 --> 00:02:07,674 of exposure where a lot of artists were like, "Oh, well, that's not us. We can 28 00:02:07,674 --> 00:02:13,574 really do the thing. We play instruments, or we can really sing." And so MTV, um, 29 00:02:14,224 --> 00:02:17,424 created a program called MTV Unplugged. 30 00:02:17,568 --> 00:02:18,118 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. 31 00:02:18,224 --> 00:02:22,694 Sir Daniel: and as Jay Ray said, this was a moment for artists to come and 32 00:02:22,874 --> 00:02:27,684 really show off their chops, whether it's playing acoustic instruments, 33 00:02:27,684 --> 00:02:34,214 nothing but a guitar, a drum, maybe some keys, and that's it, and the vocals. 34 00:02:34,384 --> 00:02:34,594 Jay Ray: Yeah 35 00:02:34,614 --> 00:02:40,984 Sir Daniel: Well, also MTV is evolving, um, racially as well because at this 36 00:02:40,994 --> 00:02:44,974 point, remember in the early days, MTV didn't have any Black, wasn't 37 00:02:44,974 --> 00:02:49,244 featuring any Black artists until Michael Jackson kicked in the doors. 38 00:02:49,264 --> 00:02:55,274 David Bowie, um, talked to, um, like really sh- um, showed them up and, and, 39 00:02:55,594 --> 00:02:57,144 and embarrassed them on television. 40 00:02:57,144 --> 00:02:58,834 Like, "Why don't you have Black artists on 41 00:02:58,986 --> 00:02:59,346 Jay Ray: Right 42 00:02:59,434 --> 00:03:02,364 Sir Daniel: this channel?" And so MTV has evolved. 43 00:03:02,384 --> 00:03:03,634 We've got Yo! 44 00:03:03,634 --> 00:03:04,814 MTV Raps. 45 00:03:04,814 --> 00:03:11,304 We've got, um, some, uh, R&B programming, um, that comes into play here and there. 46 00:03:11,564 --> 00:03:17,004 But we've got, um- More artists from the Black community, from 47 00:03:17,004 --> 00:03:21,224 the Black music community showing up on MTV on a regular basis. 48 00:03:21,674 --> 00:03:27,124 Hip-hop as a culture, uh, uh, the, is in like full upward trajectory at 49 00:03:27,154 --> 00:03:34,954 this point, and so it's, so MTV has no choice but to include programming and 50 00:03:35,004 --> 00:03:38,244 tailor programming around Black artists. 51 00:03:38,336 --> 00:03:38,676 Jay Ray: Yeah 52 00:03:38,744 --> 00:03:41,734 Sir Daniel: And one, and one of the complaints, like we could go back to 53 00:03:41,734 --> 00:03:45,274 the whole Milli Vanilli thing, and one of the complaints was that, you know, 54 00:03:45,364 --> 00:03:51,584 rappers don't really play instruments, and rappers aren't really musicians. 55 00:03:51,710 --> 00:03:51,980 Jay Ray: Yep 56 00:03:52,124 --> 00:03:56,734 Sir Daniel: So a lot of… So hip-hop heard that challenge and said, "Hold 57 00:03:56,734 --> 00:04:02,964 my beer. We're going to come and do not just MTV Unplugged, we're 58 00:04:02,964 --> 00:04:06,334 going to do Yo! MTV Unplugged." 59 00:04:06,502 --> 00:04:07,432 Jay Ray: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 60 00:04:07,954 --> 00:04:08,224 Sir Daniel: Yo! 61 00:04:08,224 --> 00:04:09,874 MTV, uh, Raps Unplugged. 62 00:04:09,892 --> 00:04:10,342 Jay Ray: mm-hmm 63 00:04:10,404 --> 00:04:13,594 Sir Daniel: Jay Ray, before we, before I let you go, I wanna say, I wanna 64 00:04:13,604 --> 00:04:17,574 give, um, s- um, props to Ted Demme, 65 00:04:17,824 --> 00:04:18,294 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 66 00:04:18,354 --> 00:04:24,134 Sir Daniel: Fab 5 Freddy, Todd One, Dr. Dre and Ed Lover because they, 67 00:04:24,464 --> 00:04:28,044 uh, behind the scenes, you know, some of them were front-facing, but 68 00:04:28,044 --> 00:04:32,304 behind the scenes they really had to fight for this representation. 69 00:04:32,304 --> 00:04:36,744 So I really wanna give them props, and Ted Demme was, fought for it as well. 70 00:04:36,964 --> 00:04:39,234 He, and he was the white guy that helped push it through. 71 00:04:39,314 --> 00:04:42,004 So shout out to those and, and rest in peace to Ted Demme. 72 00:04:43,665 --> 00:04:49,915 Jay Ray: Unplugged a very interesting and unique concept for the moment. 73 00:04:50,535 --> 00:05:00,065 Um, if we think about the 1980s the early 1990s, everything for 74 00:05:00,065 --> 00:05:04,675 the most part had moved electronic in some way, shape, or form. 75 00:05:04,975 --> 00:05:13,945 Very keyboard-heavy, drum machines, um, not a, a, a, a lot of, um, actual 76 00:05:14,015 --> 00:05:18,765 instruments, uh, in the tr- in the acoustic traditional sense, right? 77 00:05:19,447 --> 00:05:19,627 Sir Daniel: Right 78 00:05:19,715 --> 00:05:27,505 Jay Ray: Unplugged gave, uh, artists the ability to do was to reimagine, these 79 00:05:27,505 --> 00:05:30,415 songs in front of this smaller audience. 80 00:05:30,415 --> 00:05:31,935 It was a much more intimate crowd. 81 00:05:32,425 --> 00:05:35,195 Um, but it also gave them an opportunity, quite frankly, to your 82 00:05:35,195 --> 00:05:36,465 point, to show off their chops. 83 00:05:36,465 --> 00:05:41,315 Like, can you, can you rock this kinda crowd? 84 00:05:41,345 --> 00:05:46,757 And to that point- Um, I, there are so many Unplugged performances that I 85 00:05:46,777 --> 00:05:53,887 absolutely love, but when I think of Black MTV Unplugged performances that 86 00:05:53,887 --> 00:05:59,157 really, like, made an impact on me and I was like, "Oh, snap," um, Mariah Carey 87 00:05:59,157 --> 00:06:01,087 and Trey Lorenz doing I'll Be There 88 00:06:01,769 --> 00:06:02,279 Sir Daniel: Oh yeah 89 00:06:02,417 --> 00:06:03,587 Jay Ray: a moment in time. 90 00:06:03,937 --> 00:06:07,737 Now, we should also contextualize this moment for Mariah Carey. 91 00:06:07,737 --> 00:06:08,877 This is really key. 92 00:06:09,597 --> 00:06:14,197 Mariah Carey is, has become a superstar by the time she does Unplugged, right? 93 00:06:14,207 --> 00:06:16,487 Her first album goes crazy. 94 00:06:16,847 --> 00:06:19,697 She's now a year later releasing her second album. 95 00:06:20,737 --> 00:06:26,057 is in a crystal case, like in terms of how she's being treated, right? 96 00:06:26,103 --> 00:06:26,123 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 97 00:06:26,907 --> 00:06:32,687 Jay Ray: And people have questions about can she really do that? 98 00:06:32,717 --> 00:06:34,087 Like, is that a thing? 99 00:06:34,277 --> 00:06:37,787 That thing that she's doing on the records, can she really do that thing? 100 00:06:38,167 --> 00:06:38,987 Sir Daniel: The Whistle Notes 101 00:06:39,067 --> 00:06:42,247 Jay Ray: The whistle notes and, like, all of that, because Mariah 102 00:06:42,247 --> 00:06:44,307 records, she- Mariah's a studio rat. 103 00:06:44,357 --> 00:06:45,867 Those records are heavily produced. 104 00:06:45,997 --> 00:06:47,667 She loves being in the studio. 105 00:06:47,987 --> 00:06:49,337 But can she reproduce it? 106 00:06:50,197 --> 00:06:55,097 what we learned in the Unplugged performance was she absolutely could. 107 00:06:55,137 --> 00:06:55,347 And 108 00:06:55,429 --> 00:06:55,739 Sir Daniel: rest 109 00:06:56,187 --> 00:07:02,977 Jay Ray: could she reproduce it, she showed us who her influences were, 110 00:07:02,987 --> 00:07:04,517 like, through these performances. 111 00:07:04,517 --> 00:07:10,067 Like, you clearly got to see, like, Mariah in this way. 112 00:07:10,247 --> 00:07:15,067 So even just, uh, her and Trey doing I'll Be There, which was a super 113 00:07:15,097 --> 00:07:24,147 interesting choice, unique, but Mariah bodied, and Trey Lorenz bodied, too, 114 00:07:24,387 --> 00:07:25,707 and it was, like, not even a thing. 115 00:07:25,707 --> 00:07:28,177 Mariah was like, "No, do that." 116 00:07:28,631 --> 00:07:28,641 Sir Daniel: Juzwiak 117 00:07:29,647 --> 00:07:32,337 Jay Ray: "I need you to do your thing." And it became just, like, 118 00:07:32,337 --> 00:07:36,907 such an important hallmark performance of what Unplugged could be. 119 00:07:36,957 --> 00:07:42,757 It, it showed Black artists like, oh, if you go here and show what you can 120 00:07:42,757 --> 00:07:45,267 do, it'll give you something else. 121 00:07:45,307 --> 00:07:48,947 And Mariah got a whole other hit out of this with I'll Be There, but 122 00:07:48,947 --> 00:07:51,267 it was from the Unplugged release 123 00:07:51,709 --> 00:07:52,549 Sir Daniel: She sure did. 124 00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:59,569 I think, um, I, I wanna say, so there's two things that I wanna harken to as far 125 00:07:59,569 --> 00:08:05,849 as like, uh, what really stands out to me as far as MTV Unplugged performances. 126 00:08:06,559 --> 00:08:10,019 Um, the very first MTV Unplugged performance that really made me 127 00:08:10,019 --> 00:08:12,739 sit up and take notice was Nirvana. 128 00:08:13,249 --> 00:08:18,529 Nirvana's, um, d- doing their, um, "Smells Like Teen Spirit," 129 00:08:18,653 --> 00:08:19,083 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. 130 00:08:19,099 --> 00:08:21,289 Sir Daniel: from that al- from those albums, and I think, 131 00:08:21,431 --> 00:08:21,691 Jay Ray: If their 132 00:08:21,859 --> 00:08:21,999 Sir Daniel: I 133 00:08:22,191 --> 00:08:23,091 Jay Ray: had come out, yeah, 134 00:08:23,289 --> 00:08:24,359 Sir Daniel: think the second album had come out then. 135 00:08:25,011 --> 00:08:25,561 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. 136 00:08:25,739 --> 00:08:31,729 Sir Daniel: so hearing them do that, and what MTV was great for doing was 137 00:08:31,789 --> 00:08:36,409 not only were they playing the actual music videos, but what they would do is 138 00:08:36,419 --> 00:08:40,439 they would edit those, um, live, those Unplugged performances and put them in 139 00:08:40,439 --> 00:08:44,829 rotation on, on their programming, and you could see, you could watch those, 140 00:08:44,849 --> 00:08:48,639 um, live performances over and over again as they came up in programming. 141 00:08:49,139 --> 00:08:52,519 So, you know, Black people, uh, we live for Nirv- Nirvana. 142 00:08:52,529 --> 00:08:57,169 We love us a Teen Spirit, and so I absolutely loved that performance. 143 00:08:57,169 --> 00:08:58,459 But when M- Yo! 144 00:08:58,509 --> 00:09:01,979 MTV Raps Unplugged came along, that was an event, Jay Ray. 145 00:09:02,045 --> 00:09:03,135 Jay Ray: It was 146 00:09:03,249 --> 00:09:04,819 Sir Daniel: That was an event. 147 00:09:05,289 --> 00:09:11,569 Um, we, you had LL Cool J, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, 148 00:09:11,807 --> 00:09:12,357 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 149 00:09:12,369 --> 00:09:15,389 Sir Daniel: the lone female rapper of the group, MC Lyte. 150 00:09:15,631 --> 00:09:16,031 Jay Ray: Yep 151 00:09:16,449 --> 00:09:21,269 Sir Daniel: the only one, and she did "Cappuccino," and I think they, 152 00:09:21,299 --> 00:09:23,529 everybody did probably about one song. 153 00:09:23,589 --> 00:09:27,489 I think LL Cool J may have been the one that was able to go on a little longer. 154 00:09:27,909 --> 00:09:33,689 But LL Cool J's performance really stands out in my mind because at 155 00:09:33,699 --> 00:09:38,919 that moment I realized that he was, he was more than just a rapper. 156 00:09:39,095 --> 00:09:39,105 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 157 00:09:39,349 --> 00:09:44,119 Sir Daniel: I think he became, he became fully realized because we had never seen 158 00:09:44,119 --> 00:09:49,449 him in that element, and I think nobody ever r- nobody really expected these 159 00:09:49,489 --> 00:09:55,819 MCs, these rappers who were used to just having a microphone and a DJ or a DAT to 160 00:09:55,819 --> 00:09:59,289 rap to could, one, keep up with a band 161 00:09:59,607 --> 00:09:59,837 Jay Ray: Yeah. 162 00:10:00,717 --> 00:10:00,897 Can 163 00:10:00,991 --> 00:10:01,241 Sir Daniel: And 164 00:10:01,327 --> 00:10:02,217 Jay Ray: stay there for a minute? 165 00:10:02,277 --> 00:10:02,907 Oh, keep going, 166 00:10:02,941 --> 00:10:03,451 Sir Daniel: absolutely. 167 00:10:03,517 --> 00:10:04,057 Jay Ray: get back to that 168 00:10:04,651 --> 00:10:09,241 Sir Daniel: Certainly, to one, keep up with a band and be in pocket with a band 169 00:10:09,431 --> 00:10:09,871 Jay Ray: Yeah 170 00:10:10,201 --> 00:10:16,791 Sir Daniel: um, and also, um, not rely heavily on being overproduced. 171 00:10:16,831 --> 00:10:17,141 Like, 172 00:10:17,239 --> 00:10:17,599 Jay Ray: Yeah 173 00:10:18,061 --> 00:10:19,911 Sir Daniel: I have-- I can project. 174 00:10:20,341 --> 00:10:24,941 I can, I can rap and make you feel it right here in the front row, and you in 175 00:10:24,941 --> 00:10:26,811 the nosebleeds, you're gonna feel it too. 176 00:10:26,967 --> 00:10:27,377 Jay Ray: Yeah 177 00:10:28,171 --> 00:10:32,311 Sir Daniel: everybody on that lineup, but with in particular LL Cool J really 178 00:10:32,311 --> 00:10:37,151 stands out in those performances and really, I think took, made people sit 179 00:10:37,151 --> 00:10:41,831 up and notice about hip-hop even more and really took a rapper seriously. 180 00:10:41,831 --> 00:10:45,991 And I think after that, and we're gonna talk about bands here, you saw a lot more 181 00:10:45,991 --> 00:10:52,481 rappers taking bands on the road with them after, after MTV, YonTV, um, Unplugged 182 00:10:52,599 --> 00:10:55,659 Jay Ray: Yep, that's exactly where I wanna spend some time. 183 00:10:55,659 --> 00:11:01,119 I think this is such an important moment to kind of spend some time in this 184 00:11:01,119 --> 00:11:02,619 history, 'cause you're absolutely right. 185 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:13,219 so interesting about rap music is a culture, uh, as a, as a, as a 186 00:11:13,229 --> 00:11:18,379 format, rapping was such a live experience, like when it first begins. 187 00:11:18,599 --> 00:11:20,019 It's a live experience. 188 00:11:20,029 --> 00:11:25,349 It is this, this, this MC and this DJ kind of interacting with this 189 00:11:25,359 --> 00:11:27,189 crowd that's in front of them, right? 190 00:11:27,209 --> 00:11:29,999 And, and just kind of like coming off the dome and doing all this stuff. 191 00:11:30,459 --> 00:11:39,199 Um, when rap transitions to a recorded art form, there's no model for doing what 192 00:11:39,199 --> 00:11:42,359 they were doing on stage in a studio yet. 193 00:11:42,369 --> 00:11:44,109 Like, that's not a thing. 194 00:11:44,429 --> 00:11:51,419 You- a DJ then wasn't able to go in and do what they were doing on stage in a studio. 195 00:11:51,599 --> 00:11:54,489 It just wasn't the time for that yet. 196 00:11:55,349 --> 00:11:59,349 what rap was when it became a recorded art form was they would 197 00:11:59,359 --> 00:12:04,369 have bands that would be replaying these breaks in the studio, right? 198 00:12:04,619 --> 00:12:06,849 Because that's how you had to do it then. 199 00:12:07,049 --> 00:12:11,029 They were using the traditional production model of how records were 200 00:12:11,029 --> 00:12:14,949 produced in that moment in time, and creating rap records on top of them. 201 00:12:14,959 --> 00:12:17,979 So these are, these are bands in the studio playing 202 00:12:17,979 --> 00:12:19,609 with rappers rapping, right? 203 00:12:20,449 --> 00:12:26,613 the time we get the drum machine- Rap is, uh, its own thing, right? 204 00:12:26,623 --> 00:12:29,083 So we no longer need the band in the studio. 205 00:12:29,083 --> 00:12:30,703 Studios are more sophisticated. 206 00:12:30,713 --> 00:12:34,003 We're able to kind of do the things that we're able to do, 207 00:12:34,283 --> 00:12:36,033 uh, on stage in the studio now. 208 00:12:36,033 --> 00:12:37,843 We can sample the way that we can sample. 209 00:12:37,843 --> 00:12:39,053 We got this MPC. 210 00:12:39,073 --> 00:12:41,033 We're able to do everything that we can do. 211 00:12:41,193 --> 00:12:43,973 We don't need a band per se, right? 212 00:12:45,173 --> 00:12:49,003 So that's where we are when this happens, right? 213 00:12:49,003 --> 00:12:54,413 So we hadn't seen, this is pre-Digable Planets. 214 00:12:54,603 --> 00:12:56,363 This is pre The Roots. 215 00:12:56,823 --> 00:13:01,443 This is after Stetsasonic, but Stetsasonic was just like 216 00:13:01,783 --> 00:13:04,993 a rare experience in hip-hop. 217 00:13:05,003 --> 00:13:05,893 You know what I mean? 218 00:13:06,063 --> 00:13:07,773 Where you have this hip-hop band. 219 00:13:08,103 --> 00:13:13,323 So could that be something that's commercially viable? 220 00:13:13,353 --> 00:13:16,023 And to your point, Sir Daniel, the Yo! 221 00:13:16,063 --> 00:13:22,873 MTV Raps Unplugged proved that one, rappers could rock with a band. 222 00:13:22,893 --> 00:13:26,723 One, the band could figure, like, could be in that pocket, 'cause the important 223 00:13:26,723 --> 00:13:29,403 thing about hip-hop is the pocket. 224 00:13:29,463 --> 00:13:34,913 Like, that drummer has to be able to do that thing repetitively so 225 00:13:34,913 --> 00:13:37,253 that rapper can do what they do. 226 00:13:37,663 --> 00:13:41,823 But they can interplay, and so this proved that that was possible. 227 00:13:42,703 --> 00:13:46,013 loved Lyte's performance in this MTV Unplugged. 228 00:13:46,023 --> 00:13:49,863 First of all, Cappuccino was just made for this environment. 229 00:13:50,253 --> 00:13:53,203 Um, shout out to MC Lyte and her storytelling. 230 00:13:53,203 --> 00:13:55,313 Like, probably just need to do a show 231 00:13:55,443 --> 00:13:56,923 Sir Daniel: What's a cafe on the West Side? 232 00:13:57,233 --> 00:13:58,223 Jay Ray: Midtown." You know 233 00:14:00,273 --> 00:14:05,543 "So I stepped in and I ordered a cup." So it's just such great storytelling. 234 00:14:05,843 --> 00:14:10,363 But, um, A Tribe Called Quest, right, who are a new band, right? 235 00:14:10,373 --> 00:14:13,963 They're a new group at the time when MTV Unplugged happens. 236 00:14:14,433 --> 00:14:17,623 Um, they are still a four-pack at this f- at this point. 237 00:14:18,273 --> 00:14:22,333 And doing, uh, Can I Kick It Live, you know? 238 00:14:22,333 --> 00:14:26,373 And of course, sampling, you know, the, the band is playing Walk on the Wild Side, 239 00:14:26,599 --> 00:14:27,009 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 240 00:14:27,483 --> 00:14:28,303 Jay Ray: their own. 241 00:14:29,363 --> 00:14:36,463 And I think to your point, Sir Daniel, this was the moment when folks figured out 242 00:14:36,463 --> 00:14:39,763 like, oh, hip-hop is more than just people 243 00:14:39,811 --> 00:14:40,231 Sir Daniel: Fix that 244 00:14:41,553 --> 00:14:42,583 Jay Ray: and a DJ. 245 00:14:42,603 --> 00:14:48,633 Like, you can have a band, and this is pre bands including DJs. 246 00:14:48,673 --> 00:14:51,013 Now it's regular to have a DJ 247 00:14:51,435 --> 00:14:51,855 Sir Daniel: Have both. 248 00:14:52,475 --> 00:14:52,985 Yep 249 00:14:53,063 --> 00:14:53,363 Jay Ray: what I'm saying? 250 00:14:53,393 --> 00:14:55,953 The DJ is just kind of part of the band like everybody else. 251 00:14:56,303 --> 00:15:01,693 But before this happened, that was completely rare, and it's such an 252 00:15:01,693 --> 00:15:03,823 important moment in hip-hop history. 253 00:15:04,103 --> 00:15:09,453 And you're right, like, LL showed that he was a superstar in that performance 254 00:15:10,207 --> 00:15:11,297 Sir Daniel: He absolutely did. 255 00:15:11,297 --> 00:15:14,937 And so when you fast-forward to, that was 1991, 256 00:15:22,045 --> 00:15:27,375 when we fast-forward to 1993 in this moment, wow. 257 00:15:28,125 --> 00:15:37,165 Uptown Records, it has such a stronghold and has really, um, re- 258 00:15:38,255 --> 00:15:45,585 recreate, not recreated, but has, um, reimagined what R&B is and really what 259 00:15:45,585 --> 00:15:47,135 could, it could be for the future. 260 00:15:47,401 --> 00:15:47,811 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm. 261 00:15:47,935 --> 00:15:52,785 Sir Daniel: Because they've … At that moment, Uptown Records launched 262 00:15:52,785 --> 00:15:57,335 the careers of some people that really changed the face of R&B and what R&B 263 00:15:57,335 --> 00:16:00,635 sounded like and what R&B looked like. 264 00:16:01,085 --> 00:16:06,925 And so when we talk about the Uptown MTV Unplugged, you're talking 265 00:16:06,925 --> 00:16:09,065 about a marriage made in heaven. 266 00:16:09,123 --> 00:16:09,463 Jay Ray: Yeah 267 00:16:09,545 --> 00:16:15,245 Sir Daniel: Because if you look at the M- the Uptown roster by 1993, you've 268 00:16:15,255 --> 00:16:19,035 got powerhouses like Heavy D & the Boyz, 269 00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:19,659 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 270 00:16:20,455 --> 00:16:23,795 Sir Daniel: Jodeci, the legend herself, Mary J. 271 00:16:23,795 --> 00:16:24,255 Blige, 272 00:16:24,643 --> 00:16:25,513 Jay Ray: Father MC, we 273 00:16:25,545 --> 00:16:25,695 Sir Daniel: who 274 00:16:25,743 --> 00:16:26,833 Jay Ray: forget Father MC 275 00:16:27,095 --> 00:16:28,765 Sir Daniel: cannot forget Father MC. 276 00:16:29,245 --> 00:16:34,065 And, uh, but this is a very important moment for Mary J. Blige as well. 277 00:16:34,313 --> 00:16:34,763 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 278 00:16:34,875 --> 00:16:38,895 Sir Daniel: like the rappers having to prove that they were more than just 279 00:16:39,005 --> 00:16:43,965 people who, who said words on the mic, Mary J. Blige had under- was under 280 00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:50,025 a lot of scrutiny as well for her song stylings and her vocal ability. 281 00:16:50,125 --> 00:16:50,395 You 282 00:16:50,491 --> 00:16:51,111 Jay Ray: love that. 283 00:16:52,255 --> 00:16:55,105 Sir Daniel: know I love, I love s- calling somebody a song stylist. 284 00:16:55,155 --> 00:17:01,605 And she … And so this was a very important moment for her as well because 285 00:17:01,885 --> 00:17:08,395 by 1993 Mary has … So What's the 411 is, is a classic record at this point. 286 00:17:08,865 --> 00:17:10,055 She's in our hearts. 287 00:17:10,065 --> 00:17:15,185 She's our girl, you know, um, squarely in the Black community, a generation. 288 00:17:15,185 --> 00:17:17,545 She is, she's clearly our representative. 289 00:17:18,115 --> 00:17:24,075 And so in this moment Mary J. Blige I think is at the forefront to me, and I 290 00:17:24,095 --> 00:17:29,595 think that this was a very pivotal moment for her to prove her vocal prowess, her 291 00:17:29,615 --> 00:17:36,775 stage presence, all the things that people were picking apart about her as an artist. 292 00:17:37,115 --> 00:17:43,735 And so, but we, I mean, we get some serious performances with Yo MTV, 293 00:17:43,745 --> 00:17:46,565 not yo, but M- Uptown MTV Unplugged. 294 00:17:47,255 --> 00:17:48,345 I mean crazy. 295 00:17:48,565 --> 00:17:49,345 Heavy D… 296 00:17:50,083 --> 00:17:50,523 Jay Ray: Yeah 297 00:17:50,905 --> 00:17:53,835 Sir Daniel: I'm gonna let you talk because I could just, you know me, I could just 298 00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:56,215 yap on ad nauseam about this whole thing 299 00:17:56,455 --> 00:17:57,105 Jay Ray: no, no, no. 300 00:17:57,135 --> 00:18:08,445 I think i- I want to underscore, um, how important it is, going back to that 301 00:18:08,445 --> 00:18:12,955 idea of music had become so electronic. 302 00:18:13,539 --> 00:18:14,079 Sir Daniel: Yes 303 00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,105 Jay Ray: swing at its core, 304 00:18:16,771 --> 00:18:16,781 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm. 305 00:18:17,295 --> 00:18:19,975 Jay Ray: keyboards, drum machines, da, da, da, da, doo. 306 00:18:20,075 --> 00:18:20,565 Right? 307 00:18:21,905 --> 00:18:25,165 this is Uptown's foundation, right? 308 00:18:25,575 --> 00:18:32,225 Um, so this is an opportunity for Andre Harrell and a then 309 00:18:32,235 --> 00:18:34,775 young Sean "Puffy" Combs 310 00:18:34,841 --> 00:18:35,381 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 311 00:18:35,565 --> 00:18:42,625 Jay Ray: to take their artists show the world, 'cause really what 312 00:18:42,625 --> 00:18:46,955 this is is a showcase for the world that this is sellable to white 313 00:18:46,995 --> 00:18:50,645 audiences, that white audiences would be interested in seeing this. 314 00:18:50,835 --> 00:18:53,165 So they had to package these artists up. 315 00:18:53,355 --> 00:18:55,125 That's why there's such an interesting variety. 316 00:18:55,125 --> 00:18:58,275 So we mentioned all of these, like, different types of artists, 317 00:18:58,275 --> 00:19:00,705 so but it's all Uptown, right? 318 00:19:00,705 --> 00:19:03,085 So they're showing, "Oh, we got something for everybody. 319 00:19:03,085 --> 00:19:04,635 You not into Christopher Williams? 320 00:19:04,645 --> 00:19:06,745 That's okay, we got a Heavy D. You not into that? 321 00:19:06,975 --> 00:19:08,155 Oh, we got a Jodeci. 322 00:19:08,185 --> 00:19:09,155 Oh, we got a Mary. 323 00:19:09,155 --> 00:19:10,945 Oh, we got a da, da, da." Right? 324 00:19:13,365 --> 00:19:20,105 all of these artists did, think, show up in their, their tr- their fullness, 325 00:19:20,455 --> 00:19:26,955 and one of the most important classics that we do get out of this Jodeci. 326 00:19:27,205 --> 00:19:35,435 So Jodeci takes Stevie Wonder's Lately, which is a beautiful song 327 00:19:35,765 --> 00:19:36,405 Sir Daniel: Gorgeous 328 00:19:37,245 --> 00:19:37,725 Jay Ray: right? 329 00:19:39,235 --> 00:19:46,795 re-imagines it in their own style, being true to what Stevie created, 330 00:19:47,085 --> 00:19:50,095 but it is, like, for the artist now. 331 00:19:50,135 --> 00:19:55,765 And that song becomes such an important staple on R&B radio. 332 00:19:55,785 --> 00:19:59,265 You can still hear Jodeci's version of Lately on R&B radio 333 00:19:59,295 --> 00:20:01,945 today because it's so impactful. 334 00:20:02,165 --> 00:20:06,705 And we should also mention, Sir Daniel, one, this is the first 335 00:20:07,025 --> 00:20:10,045 label-centric MTV Unplugged. 336 00:20:10,065 --> 00:20:11,475 It might be only. 337 00:20:11,765 --> 00:20:12,165 I don't know 338 00:20:12,259 --> 00:20:12,279 Sir Daniel: No 339 00:20:12,575 --> 00:20:15,135 Jay Ray: ever did anything quite like this again. 340 00:20:16,575 --> 00:20:23,215 we got a full release of this on Uptown as well, so you can still go 341 00:20:23,215 --> 00:20:25,385 back and listen to these performances. 342 00:20:25,385 --> 00:20:29,425 They repackaged them and released them as, as full releases. 343 00:20:29,605 --> 00:20:34,015 And even Lately, Jodeci's Lately, I do think they re-recorded it, so I 344 00:20:34,025 --> 00:20:37,305 think there's a, the live version, but then I think there's an in studio 345 00:20:37,379 --> 00:20:38,469 Sir Daniel: A studio version 346 00:20:39,055 --> 00:20:42,185 Jay Ray: But I think it's just really important to underscore that 347 00:20:42,655 --> 00:20:49,809 when this happened This wasn't a, a sure bet, you know what I'm saying? 348 00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:57,079 Like, they, Andre and Puff had to really work to make sure that this thing was 349 00:20:57,089 --> 00:21:01,179 packaged the way it needed to be packaged, and it went off the way it went off in 350 00:21:01,189 --> 00:21:06,739 order to work, and it's become one of the most important MTV Unpluggeds, period 351 00:21:08,053 --> 00:21:08,813 Sir Daniel: I think so. 352 00:21:08,813 --> 00:21:12,153 And, uh, there's something I wanna go back to really quickly, of a 353 00:21:12,153 --> 00:21:13,983 very important point that you made. 354 00:21:16,213 --> 00:21:26,723 This s- particularly this, um, Uptown, um, Unplugged, um, uh, combination was 355 00:21:26,723 --> 00:21:30,873 very important because we weren't getting a lot of live… Radio wasn't playing 356 00:21:30,873 --> 00:21:33,093 a lot of live recordings at the time. 357 00:21:33,415 --> 00:21:33,815 Jay Ray: Mm-mm. 358 00:21:34,313 --> 00:21:39,273 Sir Daniel: And so because of this, um, this collabo between 359 00:21:39,313 --> 00:21:45,033 MTV and Uptown, we got live recordings in radio rotation again. 360 00:21:45,187 --> 00:21:45,557 Jay Ray: Yep 361 00:21:46,393 --> 00:21:48,693 Sir Daniel: You know, and there's only a few artists that when you 362 00:21:48,693 --> 00:21:54,813 think about it, that radio would play live versions of their tunes 363 00:21:55,013 --> 00:21:59,813 or their labels made live versions available to radio for radio to play. 364 00:22:00,323 --> 00:22:05,223 So I think that that's something to, to, to, to magnify really 365 00:22:05,223 --> 00:22:06,713 quickly just to say, you know what? 366 00:22:06,733 --> 00:22:09,593 This was, this was also important to Black radio. 367 00:22:10,123 --> 00:22:14,083 And so that because when you think about it as a listener, if I'm 368 00:22:14,083 --> 00:22:18,973 hearing, you know, Jodeci live and, a- and they're singing "Lately," 369 00:22:19,333 --> 00:22:20,923 I'm more apt to say, "You know what? 370 00:22:21,233 --> 00:22:25,353 When Jodeci comes to my town, my corner of the planet, I'm gonna 371 00:22:25,363 --> 00:22:30,193 go see them because according to this, they do the real thing live. 372 00:22:30,273 --> 00:22:33,123 And so I'm gonna, I know I'm gonna go and get a great show." 373 00:22:33,853 --> 00:22:35,843 So I think that's super important to radio. 374 00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:44,330 Jay Ray: Unplugged becomes kind of a mainstay in the MTV ecosystem for 375 00:22:44,330 --> 00:22:52,400 several years, and to that point of, like, live infiltrating radio, uh, 376 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:58,410 three years later, be four years later, this might've been '97, um, a brand 377 00:22:58,410 --> 00:23:02,330 new artist who had released their debut album, uh, Maxwell's Urban Hang 378 00:23:02,330 --> 00:23:07,880 Suite, Maxwell got his own Unplugged. 379 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:15,550 And I think what was so unique about this is Maxwell was still really new as 380 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:16,076 Sir Daniel: Yes 381 00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:20,810 Jay Ray: He had definitely penetrated Black radio. 382 00:23:20,850 --> 00:23:23,590 Like, Maxwell was, was winning. 383 00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:27,270 Uh, by the time Ascension came out, which was song number two, 384 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,400 Maxwell was, like, in there. 385 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,440 We was in there with him. 386 00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:37,590 But we got something super special with his Unplugged when he did 387 00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:40,270 his version of This Woman's Work. 388 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,200 Once again, they had the live version, which I think is the, 389 00:23:44,210 --> 00:23:47,030 the, the, um, definitive version of 390 00:23:47,352 --> 00:23:47,892 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 391 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,980 Jay Ray: but they also have an in-studio version of it as well. 392 00:23:51,470 --> 00:23:54,530 But what's so unique about this is, of course, he's taking this, this, 393 00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:59,200 um, pop song that's a remake, um, 394 00:23:59,708 --> 00:24:00,708 Sir Daniel: Somebody want me? 395 00:24:00,950 --> 00:24:04,750 Jay Ray: sung by a woman, singing it in his falsetto 396 00:24:05,340 --> 00:24:07,020 Sir Daniel: Baby, he was up there 397 00:24:07,544 --> 00:24:08,574 Jay Ray: up there. 398 00:24:08,744 --> 00:24:10,834 I wonder, I've never seen, uh, Maxwell live. 399 00:24:10,954 --> 00:24:14,974 Let us know in the comments when you listen to this if Maxwell does this 400 00:24:14,974 --> 00:24:17,234 woman's work, and where is that key? 401 00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:24,314 Let us because in 1996 and 1997, he was way up there doing this. 402 00:24:24,524 --> 00:24:32,474 But radio picked up thing, and we still hear that once 403 00:24:32,474 --> 00:24:35,014 again on, uh, R&B radio today. 404 00:24:35,204 --> 00:24:38,294 Quiet Storm, you're gonna get This Woman's Work by Maxwell 405 00:24:40,150 --> 00:24:40,860 Sir Daniel: Uh, it just dawned on me. 406 00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:45,540 This is something s- very special about Maxwell's Unplugged to me. 407 00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:52,040 Maxwell's Unplugged was recorded at Brooklyn Academy of Music, 408 00:24:52,764 --> 00:24:52,964 Jay Ray: Shout out 409 00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:58,740 Sir Daniel: which is directly across the street next door to 38 Lafayette, 410 00:24:59,620 --> 00:25:04,580 which is Hanson Place Seventh-day Adventist School, which is where a 411 00:25:04,580 --> 00:25:11,830 young DJ Sir Daniel attended school from the age of two years old up until 13. 412 00:25:12,248 --> 00:25:12,648 Jay Ray: Wow 413 00:25:12,790 --> 00:25:16,030 Sir Daniel: Brooklyn Academy of Music was so important to us, Jay Ray. 414 00:25:16,270 --> 00:25:17,720 I think I may have mentioned it. 415 00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:24,860 They would invite us students to come ac- walk across the street and, um, and 416 00:25:24,860 --> 00:25:29,580 see performances, and that was such a… tho- those are such impactful moments 417 00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:37,030 to me in particular, um, to see live music being performed, to see dance, um, 418 00:25:37,030 --> 00:25:39,900 to, to see choreography, to see acting. 419 00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:44,140 I mean, thank God for Brooklyn Academy of Music, and it's still there. 420 00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:49,140 Thank God for- Mm-hmm … opening their doors to us and allowing, you 421 00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:52,370 know, these young, these young Black kids, impressionable Black kids to 422 00:25:52,370 --> 00:25:55,480 just hold hands, 'cause you know at that age we had to hold hands. 423 00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:59,590 Find a partner and hold hands and walk across the street and, 424 00:25:59,610 --> 00:26:05,020 um, and to, to go and check out this, um, these performances. 425 00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:11,140 But yeah, I, you know, finding out that Maxwell's Unplugged was performed at 426 00:26:11,180 --> 00:26:15,560 Brooklyn Academy of Music really, you know, gave me a little, you know, a 427 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,840 little oomph, a little BK pride, which is something that continued later on. 428 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:31,510 I guess we gotta talk about Lauryn Hill's Unplugged. 429 00:26:31,514 --> 00:26:31,964 Jay Ray: do. 430 00:26:32,010 --> 00:26:32,140 Sir Daniel: we have to? 431 00:26:32,510 --> 00:26:33,710 Yeah, okay, we do 432 00:26:34,014 --> 00:26:35,284 Jay Ray: Well, well, okay. 433 00:26:35,734 --> 00:26:38,734 We do from the perspective of 434 00:26:39,044 --> 00:26:39,804 Sir Daniel: It happened. 435 00:26:40,334 --> 00:26:40,934 Jay Ray: it happened. 436 00:26:41,104 --> 00:26:45,744 Honestly, I, I have never heard that thing in full. 437 00:26:47,614 --> 00:26:48,564 Um, 438 00:26:48,692 --> 00:26:49,532 Sir Daniel: It's a heavy lift 439 00:26:50,174 --> 00:26:56,084 Jay Ray: it's a heavy lift, but I, I, I do wanna, I do want to mention for those 440 00:26:56,094 --> 00:27:03,604 that weren't there, when this release happened, this was before we knew what 441 00:27:03,604 --> 00:27:12,364 it entailed because I don't think many people had seen the actual performance. 442 00:27:12,794 --> 00:27:18,494 But I remember the double disc release being, this was a 443 00:27:18,504 --> 00:27:20,114 big deal in the record store. 444 00:27:20,144 --> 00:27:20,724 You know what I'm saying? 445 00:27:20,748 --> 00:27:21,068 Sir Daniel: Oh, yes 446 00:27:21,434 --> 00:27:22,864 Jay Ray: Because it's Lauryn Hill. 447 00:27:22,884 --> 00:27:31,464 Lauryn Hill spent 1998 and 1999 conquering the world, and had disappeared after that. 448 00:27:31,944 --> 00:27:38,684 So we were expecting different than what we got. 449 00:27:39,884 --> 00:27:48,594 And what I think is worth mentioning is that Unplugged was willing to take risks, 450 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,270 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 451 00:27:50,024 --> 00:27:53,324 Jay Ray: Lauryn's Unplugged was absolutely a risk. 452 00:27:53,384 --> 00:28:01,434 Um, it didn't pan out commercially, but it did give us a glimpse into 453 00:28:02,094 --> 00:28:07,534 what an unraveling of stardom at that time kind of looked like. 454 00:28:07,744 --> 00:28:11,304 This was not something we had seen in hip-hop before. 455 00:28:11,314 --> 00:28:14,904 I think this is, this was the first time where we were like, "Yo, 456 00:28:15,784 --> 00:28:19,534 happened to Lauryn?" And we got a whole record that chronicled it. 457 00:28:20,578 --> 00:28:23,568 Sir Daniel: I think that that's, um 458 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,120 That sentiment right there. 459 00:28:27,130 --> 00:28:29,300 Yo, what hap- that could be a T-shirt. 460 00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:30,670 Yo, what happened to Lauryn? 461 00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:37,110 Literally was echoed from, from hood to hood across America because we were all 462 00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:42,550 looking like… I think people had just been so wrapped up in the whole, um, Doo 463 00:28:42,550 --> 00:28:47,830 Wop That Thing of it all, and the joy and the happiness of Zion and, and all 464 00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:50,840 that upliftment and, you know, she had… 465 00:28:51,860 --> 00:28:53,200 Wait, where's her locks? 466 00:28:53,570 --> 00:28:57,190 Where's the, you know, she's not, she's not done up. 467 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,640 Well, yeah, of course she had a baby. 468 00:28:58,640 --> 00:28:59,910 Okay, we can understand that. 469 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,910 Is she pregnant again or… You 470 00:29:01,942 --> 00:29:02,232 Jay Ray: Right 471 00:29:02,350 --> 00:29:05,630 Sir Daniel: there's all of this stuff, all this real-life stuff 472 00:29:05,630 --> 00:29:07,110 that's happening to this woman. 473 00:29:07,540 --> 00:29:12,330 And, you know, in true human fashion, as consumers, we're selfish. 474 00:29:12,670 --> 00:29:15,060 We want Doo Wop That Thing. 475 00:29:15,180 --> 00:29:15,370 We 476 00:29:15,574 --> 00:29:16,134 Jay Ray: like what is 477 00:29:16,210 --> 00:29:18,360 Sir Daniel: we want that thing that you… What is this? 478 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,770 Uh, this is not bringing me joy. 479 00:29:19,770 --> 00:29:20,800 This is not happiness. 480 00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:25,470 And it, it reflected definitely, I remember I was, 'cause this was in 2001, 481 00:29:25,470 --> 00:29:31,120 so I was definitely working at HMV, and I remember those boxes and boxes 482 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,090 of that CD just kept sitting there. 483 00:29:33,300 --> 00:29:38,120 People, it was just not something that people were, um, drawn to and 484 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,260 wanted to relive over and over again. 485 00:29:40,290 --> 00:29:47,130 I remember I got a copy, took it home, and I mean, I was just, I was 486 00:29:47,130 --> 00:29:48,710 exhausted after listening to it. 487 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,430 It was just… And then, oh, and this is something that we 488 00:29:51,430 --> 00:29:52,820 had not experienced either. 489 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,240 She was breaking down and crying 490 00:29:55,460 --> 00:29:56,020 Jay Ray: Yeah 491 00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:57,270 Sir Daniel: in the middle of the performance. 492 00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,310 I don't think we've ever experienced that. 493 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,460 Our generation 494 00:30:00,594 --> 00:30:00,794 Jay Ray: No 495 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,860 Sir Daniel: has ever experienced seeing an artist, um, have a real-life 496 00:30:06,030 --> 00:30:11,630 emotional breakdown on television or, and have it recorded so that we 497 00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:13,680 could re- hear it over and over again. 498 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,480 And I think that, that part of made it unlistenable to a lot of people as well 499 00:30:18,928 --> 00:30:20,938 Jay Ray: Y- you know, it's so interesting, sir, that I hadn't 500 00:30:20,938 --> 00:30:22,808 thought of that in that way. 501 00:30:23,548 --> 00:30:24,168 But, 502 00:30:26,878 --> 00:30:30,508 I do think it is an interesting artistic choice, and I'm sure Lauryn 503 00:30:30,518 --> 00:30:36,248 had, had a piece of this, there were a lot of false starts on this as well. 504 00:30:36,258 --> 00:30:40,318 Like, she would start … 'Cause Lauryn, she wasn't a proficient, uh, guitar 505 00:30:40,318 --> 00:30:45,808 player, uh, at the time, and so there was just a lot of false starts, so the 506 00:30:45,808 --> 00:30:47,638 song would almost be whatever, whatever. 507 00:30:49,848 --> 00:30:57,058 most musicians would be like, "All of that gotta go. cut that whole beginning 508 00:30:57,058 --> 00:31:01,308 part out. I need this part, whatever, fade here," you know what I'm saying? 509 00:31:01,338 --> 00:31:03,978 'Cause I start crying, and I don't want that in the thing. 510 00:31:04,728 --> 00:31:06,358 W- that's in the double disc. 511 00:31:06,458 --> 00:31:07,998 It's a double disc. 512 00:31:08,142 --> 00:31:08,872 Sir Daniel: It's a double disc 513 00:31:10,048 --> 00:31:12,498 Jay Ray: double disc, that mean, disc could hold up to, 514 00:31:12,498 --> 00:31:14,128 like, 70 minutes of music. 515 00:31:14,298 --> 00:31:15,318 This is a double 516 00:31:15,336 --> 00:31:15,406 Sir Daniel: Ooh. 517 00:31:16,736 --> 00:31:18,786 And you know, you bring up something very important. 518 00:31:18,806 --> 00:31:23,126 There's a lot of money at stake here too, because this is, the 519 00:31:23,126 --> 00:31:26,826 label has, um, is putting up money, musicians have to be paid. 520 00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:31,996 MTV is putting up its cameras, its lights, its Times S- they've got Times 521 00:31:32,006 --> 00:31:36,956 Square, so the venue Times Square has to be, you know, taken care of in some 522 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:39,096 form of f- financial form as well. 523 00:31:39,496 --> 00:31:40,886 And so she can't. 524 00:31:41,696 --> 00:31:44,936 This is not something that you can go back and say, "You know what, guys? I'm 525 00:31:44,956 --> 00:31:48,126 off t- I was a little off tonight. Let's just all come back tomorrow night and 526 00:31:48,136 --> 00:31:50,286 we'll do it again." That's not happening. 527 00:31:50,656 --> 00:31:51,986 That could not happen. 528 00:31:51,998 --> 00:31:52,248 Jay Ray: it 529 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:53,466 Sir Daniel: And this is it. 530 00:31:53,466 --> 00:31:57,216 And so we literally, if you, if you're interested, you can hear in 531 00:31:57,226 --> 00:32:03,066 real time what happened to this woman musically, and the, and the reason 532 00:32:03,066 --> 00:32:04,376 why people were kind of like… 533 00:32:04,546 --> 00:32:10,806 It started this conversation around the, the validity of this 534 00:32:10,806 --> 00:32:15,816 star, this, the superstar that we had created as a, as an audience. 535 00:32:15,816 --> 00:32:16,386 You know what I'm saying? 536 00:32:16,396 --> 00:32:20,106 It started that conversation a- and, and people still to this day 537 00:32:20,106 --> 00:32:23,296 have this conversation of, "Oh, y'all give Lauryn Hill too much. 538 00:32:23,306 --> 00:32:24,766 She only had that one record." 539 00:32:25,136 --> 00:32:26,976 And it's like, is she really that dope? 540 00:32:27,046 --> 00:32:30,146 And it started that con- th- that's the kink in her armor, and 541 00:32:30,146 --> 00:32:35,216 it started, I believe, um, at the release of the, her un- MTV Unplugged 542 00:32:36,226 --> 00:32:41,456 Jay Ray: You know, um, as we wind down, one, I have a question for you that 543 00:32:41,796 --> 00:32:41,806 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 544 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:45,636 Jay Ray: I'm, I'm curious about, but as we wind down, I'm thinking about 545 00:32:47,684 --> 00:32:56,344 this idea, like L- the Lauryn Unplugged probably the most raw really 546 00:32:56,344 --> 00:33:01,124 does live up to the idea of what Unplugged was supposed to be, right? 547 00:33:01,334 --> 00:33:06,754 This kind of very authentic experience of this artist interacting with their, 548 00:33:06,774 --> 00:33:10,854 their work, interacting with the audience and the musicians that are with them. 549 00:33:11,264 --> 00:33:18,794 And z- uh, say what you want about the Lauryn Unplugged album, which I 550 00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:22,374 still have not heard and I probably will not hear in this lifetime. 551 00:33:23,594 --> 00:33:27,684 I'm just not, you know… But it's very, it was authentic 552 00:33:27,684 --> 00:33:29,234 to where she was at the time. 553 00:33:29,574 --> 00:33:33,134 And I would be curious, um, she probably is good with it. 554 00:33:33,414 --> 00:33:36,474 I don't know if anyone's ever asked her, like, to reflect on it, because 555 00:33:36,474 --> 00:33:39,854 now we're at the 25th anniversary of it, 556 00:33:39,998 --> 00:33:40,428 Sir Daniel: Yeah 557 00:33:40,564 --> 00:33:43,704 Jay Ray: am curious to know what she thinks. 558 00:33:43,704 --> 00:33:47,084 And maybe that's a question we'll just ask on social media, like, directly, 559 00:33:47,084 --> 00:33:52,884 like, "Yo, Lauryn, like, it's 25 years since Unplugged. Like, what do you think, 560 00:33:52,974 --> 00:33:58,174 like, what do you, do you feel about that body of work today?" Let's, let's 561 00:33:58,198 --> 00:34:01,968 Sir Daniel: As it sit, as it sits in your discography and your body of work. 562 00:34:02,198 --> 00:34:02,608 Yeah 563 00:34:03,314 --> 00:34:05,754 Jay Ray: So here's my question, Sir Daniel. 564 00:34:06,036 --> 00:34:06,436 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 565 00:34:07,604 --> 00:34:15,804 Jay Ray: Who is one, what is one or two Unpluggeds that you wish happened? 566 00:34:17,896 --> 00:34:18,576 Sir Daniel: Hmm 567 00:34:22,966 --> 00:34:23,736 Huh. 568 00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:33,116 I think we really should have gotten, we should have gotten a MTV Unplugged 569 00:34:33,146 --> 00:34:38,497 Invincible I know we got the ti- the, the, the 2001 performance and all 570 00:34:38,497 --> 00:34:42,457 that, but I, I know there was a lot of stuff going on, but I really do 571 00:34:42,457 --> 00:34:48,757 think maybe that that could have pushed things over, pushed the, that record, 572 00:34:48,757 --> 00:34:50,707 that body of work a little further 573 00:34:50,789 --> 00:34:51,269 Jay Ray: yeah. 574 00:34:51,409 --> 00:34:53,539 Me and you are in the exact same space. 575 00:34:53,549 --> 00:34:57,889 If there's any, if there's the, the one Unplugged that I wish 576 00:34:57,899 --> 00:35:00,619 happened, and I actually don't wish it was Invincible, but I think it 577 00:35:00,619 --> 00:35:02,019 should've been released at the time. 578 00:35:02,465 --> 00:35:02,755 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm 579 00:35:02,909 --> 00:35:06,809 Jay Ray: truly do wish Michael Jackson just went on stage and did 580 00:35:06,809 --> 00:35:08,789 Michael Jackson history of songs. 581 00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:13,569 Like, can you imagine a stripped down Billie Jean and a stripped down 582 00:35:13,569 --> 00:35:17,949 Man in the Mirror, where Michael Jackson is not being Michael Jackson? 583 00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:21,189 He's j- it's just him and the band and that voice. 584 00:35:21,479 --> 00:35:22,759 Baby, I don't need you to dance. 585 00:35:22,889 --> 00:35:25,909 You can tiptoe around that stage a little bit, but what I really need 586 00:35:25,909 --> 00:35:31,529 you to do is we just need to have a conversation because m- that voice 587 00:35:31,759 --> 00:35:33,509 and those songs are so timeless. 588 00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:34,709 So I'm with you. 589 00:35:35,359 --> 00:35:40,929 I wish that in 2001, ahead of the release that, of Invincible, that Michael Jackson 590 00:35:40,929 --> 00:35:45,349 had done an Unplugged, a true Unplugged, where it's like, "No, Michael, you're not 591 00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:49,129 doing none of that. You literally going, we give you this stool, and we give you 592 00:35:49,129 --> 00:35:54,569 a microphone, and this band. Work it out, child." I wish we'd gotten that. 593 00:35:55,185 --> 00:35:56,075 Sir Daniel: can I have one more? 594 00:35:56,185 --> 00:35:58,205 Jay Ray: Of course, yeah, you can, 'cause I have another one too. 595 00:35:58,305 --> 00:35:59,745 I wonder if we're on the same page again. 596 00:35:59,925 --> 00:36:00,205 Ooh. 597 00:36:00,319 --> 00:36:08,009 Sir Daniel: I, so I kinda wish we could, and we did kind of get it, but I kinda 598 00:36:08,009 --> 00:36:14,799 wish that there was a overlap or a, a collaboration between Sisters in the 599 00:36:14,799 --> 00:36:22,819 Name of Rap and MTV Unplugged because we saw what MC Lyte could do with a band. 600 00:36:23,173 --> 00:36:23,183 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 601 00:36:24,169 --> 00:36:28,029 Sir Daniel: At this point, Salt-N-Pepa has a all-girl band that they were 602 00:36:28,029 --> 00:36:30,979 on tour with from DC, a go-go band. 603 00:36:31,019 --> 00:36:32,939 I can't remember their name right now. 604 00:36:32,989 --> 00:36:36,699 For, was it For Pleasure or something like that? 605 00:36:36,749 --> 00:36:38,059 A Pleasure or something like that. 606 00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:45,399 Anyway, so, so MC Lyte, Queen Latifah, who is also, um, touring with a band and doing 607 00:36:45,399 --> 00:36:49,739 stuff with a band, I think, and they were, for all intents and purposes, like the 608 00:36:49,739 --> 00:36:54,119 mainstays of female rapdom at the time. 609 00:36:54,119 --> 00:36:56,559 Like the hierarchy, it was them. 610 00:36:56,569 --> 00:36:58,889 They were the ones that were constantly on MTV. 611 00:36:59,319 --> 00:37:01,049 Um, we'd seen them perform. 612 00:37:01,049 --> 00:37:04,869 So I think, you know, and this is, and this is clearly 613 00:37:04,869 --> 00:37:06,549 a, a Sir Daniel moment here. 614 00:37:06,849 --> 00:37:11,329 I think that would have really done well and gone down in, um, history as 615 00:37:11,329 --> 00:37:20,009 a great moment, um, of an unplugged version filmed by MTV, 'cause they really 616 00:37:20,099 --> 00:37:26,779 could do a great job of these pioneering women that really would've lasted still 617 00:37:26,779 --> 00:37:31,199 to this day, and we probably could've gotten some really great, um, live 618 00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:34,789 performances to play on the radio, like we mentioned the other ones of the past. 619 00:37:35,269 --> 00:37:36,339 And, uh, yeah. 620 00:37:36,529 --> 00:37:38,059 So yeah, that would be my other one 621 00:37:38,857 --> 00:37:39,157 Jay Ray: I love that. 622 00:37:39,247 --> 00:37:39,877 I love that. 623 00:37:39,937 --> 00:37:46,267 Um, my, my other one, and this is a dream, um, one, would've been 624 00:37:46,317 --> 00:37:52,657 an official The Roots, Bahamadia, and Gang Starr Unplugged. 625 00:37:52,833 --> 00:37:52,843 Sir Daniel: Ooh 626 00:37:53,077 --> 00:37:55,707 Jay Ray: That would be so crazy. 627 00:37:56,597 --> 00:38:02,137 Like, just think of, like, the power of, like, having that go down. 628 00:38:02,147 --> 00:38:05,427 You got the jazz inflection of Gang Starr. 629 00:38:05,697 --> 00:38:07,977 You have, with Bahamadia, right? 630 00:38:08,397 --> 00:38:12,087 Bahamadia's kind of the center because she's bridging Gang 631 00:38:12,087 --> 00:38:13,777 Starr and The Roots together. 632 00:38:13,777 --> 00:38:14,767 You know what I mean? 633 00:38:16,167 --> 00:38:17,067 that would've went crazy 634 00:38:18,821 --> 00:38:20,371 Sir Daniel: That would've gone, gone dumb. 635 00:38:20,421 --> 00:38:20,871 Yep. 636 00:38:21,835 --> 00:38:22,185 Jay Ray: Yeah, 637 00:38:22,601 --> 00:38:25,401 Sir Daniel: beats, unplugged versions of Preemo beats. 638 00:38:25,471 --> 00:38:26,881 That would've been something. 639 00:38:27,675 --> 00:38:28,375 Jay Ray: Crazy, 640 00:38:28,611 --> 00:38:32,371 Sir Daniel: Listen, well, we can't even say MTV call us 'cause, well, there's no 641 00:38:32,641 --> 00:38:32,901 Jay Ray: We 642 00:38:32,971 --> 00:38:33,361 Sir Daniel: more MTV. 643 00:38:33,521 --> 00:38:34,311 Jay Ray: unfortunately. 644 00:38:34,321 --> 00:38:34,731 No more 645 00:38:34,751 --> 00:38:34,941 Sir Daniel: Yeah. 646 00:38:36,071 --> 00:38:36,791 Jay Ray: Um 647 00:38:36,971 --> 00:38:38,561 Sir Daniel: before we get out of here though, we gotta, we 648 00:38:38,561 --> 00:38:39,841 gotta take it back to Brooklyn 649 00:38:40,485 --> 00:38:40,915 Jay Ray: Yeah. 650 00:38:42,535 --> 00:38:43,095 So 651 00:38:43,133 --> 00:38:44,703 Sir Daniel: the last, was this the final 652 00:38:45,575 --> 00:38:46,945 Jay Ray: It wasn't the final Unplugged. 653 00:38:46,945 --> 00:38:48,985 There were, there were Unplugs after that. 654 00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:58,065 Um, but it really did, um, Jay-Z as just an interesting artist 655 00:38:58,075 --> 00:39:01,395 who, um… Here's the thing. 656 00:39:02,765 --> 00:39:07,315 For all the things we wanna say about Jay-Z, um, and his dominance 657 00:39:07,355 --> 00:39:12,555 as a pop culture figure, Jay-Z is also a squarely an artist. 658 00:39:12,933 --> 00:39:12,943 Sir Daniel: Mm-hmm. 659 00:39:13,105 --> 00:39:19,815 Jay Ray: And, um, just speaking of The Roots, right, him pairing with Questlove 660 00:39:20,025 --> 00:39:27,935 to pull together the band for the official Jay-Z Unplugged, is a moment in time. 661 00:39:27,935 --> 00:39:34,275 So you get this overlap of Philly and Brooklyn happening, and it is one of the 662 00:39:34,475 --> 00:39:39,105 best Unplugs that they ever released, 'cause, you know, it was, everybody was 663 00:39:39,105 --> 00:39:40,805 firing on all cylinders for that joint 664 00:39:41,893 --> 00:39:42,533 Sir Daniel: Yes. 665 00:39:42,613 --> 00:39:48,163 Now, noticeably missing from this Unplugged performance, because 666 00:39:48,163 --> 00:39:54,553 I think what had Jay come off of where Mary J. Blige was featured 667 00:39:54,573 --> 00:39:59,783 on heavily on, like, "Living in the City," um, and some other records. 668 00:39:59,783 --> 00:40:03,803 It was Ma- like… Well, Mary had also appeared on Reasonable Doubt, 669 00:40:04,673 --> 00:40:08,043 uh, for some of his biggest hit, hits, "Can't Knock the Hustle." 670 00:40:08,383 --> 00:40:16,413 So he, people were expecting to see Mary, but boys and girls, singing, um, lead 671 00:40:16,423 --> 00:40:24,703 vocals was one Jaguar Wright, who at the time, you, we, we, she did her big one. 672 00:40:24,759 --> 00:40:26,119 Jay Ray: Like, she was the next up. 673 00:40:26,139 --> 00:40:28,669 Like, we, we looking at Jag, she's that girl. 674 00:40:28,669 --> 00:40:29,339 She's about to be 675 00:40:29,393 --> 00:40:30,803 Sir Daniel: she sat in there. 676 00:40:30,803 --> 00:40:33,643 She, she s- she stood up in Mary's boots 677 00:40:33,823 --> 00:40:34,343 Jay Ray: Mm-hmm 678 00:40:34,563 --> 00:40:38,463 Sir Daniel: and sang her face off, and she put her spin on it because 679 00:40:38,473 --> 00:40:44,143 you can't listen to that, uh, that Unplugged version of Jay-Z and not 680 00:40:44,323 --> 00:40:48,213 think, "Damn, Jaguar Wright is really putting down some good pieces of 681 00:40:48,213 --> 00:40:50,463 singing on this, um, on this project." 682 00:40:51,003 --> 00:40:54,043 And so you did your big one on that one, Jaguar. 683 00:40:54,378 --> 00:40:56,588 Jay Ray: you know, my how things change. 684 00:40:56,648 --> 00:40:57,398 Um, 685 00:40:57,408 --> 00:40:58,828 Sir Daniel: My, how they have changed 686 00:40:59,698 --> 00:41:03,218 Jay Ray: Y'all, but, you know, thank y'all so much for hanging out with us. 687 00:41:03,218 --> 00:41:08,168 Like, MTV Unplugged was such an important, um, it was, it 688 00:41:08,168 --> 00:41:10,208 was, it was, uh, important TV. 689 00:41:11,138 --> 00:41:14,658 it was a way that you could see some of your favorite artists in, um, a 690 00:41:14,658 --> 00:41:16,558 context that they weren't normally in. 691 00:41:16,978 --> 00:41:20,148 And, um, shout-out to them for, for leaning into it. 692 00:41:20,148 --> 00:41:23,028 But, um, and we appreciate y'all for hanging out with us 693 00:41:23,028 --> 00:41:24,918 as we, we went down memory lane. 694 00:41:25,138 --> 00:41:29,128 What's one of your favorite MTV Unplugged performances? 695 00:41:29,128 --> 00:41:32,358 Let us know in the dis- uh, in the comments. 696 00:41:32,688 --> 00:41:37,898 And, um, so if you can hear our faces and see our voices, subscribe, 697 00:41:37,898 --> 00:41:40,658 share the show with your friends, family, your colleagues, because if 698 00:41:40,668 --> 00:41:43,388 you love Queue Points, chances are they will love Queue Points as well. 699 00:41:43,788 --> 00:41:45,568 Visit our website at queuepoints.com. 700 00:41:45,618 --> 00:41:48,428 That is the, the foundation for all things Queue Points. 701 00:41:48,438 --> 00:41:51,528 You can listen to our old, our, our archive shows. 702 00:41:51,528 --> 00:41:55,978 You can become a member, you, which gives you all types of perks, uh, 703 00:41:55,978 --> 00:41:57,308 and really dope stuff that you get. 704 00:41:57,668 --> 00:42:01,498 Um, and you can read our blog, and then make sure that you go ahead and shop 705 00:42:01,498 --> 00:42:02,492 our store at store.queuepoints.com. 706 00:42:02,492 --> 00:42:02,522 We appreciate y'all. 707 00:42:02,522 --> 00:42:02,542 We love 708 00:42:04,988 --> 00:42:05,248 y'all 709 00:42:06,682 --> 00:42:07,392 Sir Daniel: We certainly do. 710 00:42:07,392 --> 00:42:10,742 And like we say at the end of every episode, in this life you have a choice. 711 00:42:10,782 --> 00:42:14,172 You can either pick up the needle or you can let the record play. 712 00:42:14,172 --> 00:42:15,532 I am DJ Sir Daniel 713 00:42:15,998 --> 00:42:17,508 Jay Ray: And my name is Jay Ray y'all 714 00:42:18,106 --> 00:42:20,136 Sir Daniel: And this is Queue Points podcast, dropping the 715 00:42:20,136 --> 00:42:22,046 needle on Black music history. 716 00:42:22,256 --> 00:42:24,326 We will see you on the next go-round. 717 00:42:24,726 --> 00:42:25,236 Peace 718 00:42:25,682 --> 00:42:26,792 Jay Ray: Peace, y'all.