[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss vulnerability.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

[00:00:22] Nina Endrst: You know what I really like, well, besides everything about you? Is that when in our intro, you can always tell that you're smiling or half laughing. Have you noticed that? When it's your line for how to be human intro?

[00:00:41] Anna Toonk: Well, a trick I was taught many moons ago when I was an assistant, and I was working in production is I was struggling because people were so mean to me, you know, on the phone. And this guy I worked with was like smile when you're on the phone with him, it'll change your voice. And I was like, interesting. And then when I went into producing and would do VOs and stuff, occasionally they would have me come in for people to do VO, which I don't think I have like a particularly sexy voice or anything. No, I'm kidding, but...

[00:01:17] Nina Endrst: You have a great voice.

[00:01:19] Anna Toonk: Thank you. Well, people think we sound exactly the same, so, so yeah, so we both do.

[00:01:24] Nina Endrst: Because you sound like me.

[00:01:26] Anna Toonk: And so I learned like all these random things, but a big thing they were like a way you can like change your voice obviously is just smiling. Like it's such an easy way that I found I get stage fright and I get really self-conscious. So that little trick helped me, like, forget I was like talking on a mic or being watched or whatever, and I enjoy it too. Cause I feel like it makes me seem like a person and not a robot. And I think it's hard sometimes when you're being recorded, you know, not to go in that creepy version of yourself.

[00:01:57] Nina Endrst: Yeah, totally.

[00:01:58] Anna Toonk: I mean, don't you, I mean, God, the first few like recorded readings I ever did or like on Instagram when I was like trying to build my business and would like sometimes do like a reading for the collective. It's like who is holding her hostage and making her do this? I'm so uncomfortable and self-conscious. And like trying to be something else in, like, this is a reading for the collective. It's so painful. I have to see if I can dig those up just for giggles.

[00:02:32] Nina Endrst: So we're talking about judgment today.

[00:02:35] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Speaking of judging myself, we're talking judgment.

[00:02:39] Nina Endrst: I also have so much to say about the tarot card. I figured.

[00:02:44] Anna Toonk: So I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Yeah. I'll give you, I got that deaf, deaf. The ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions. An error of judgment. 2. A misfortune or calamity. I love that they use the word calamity. Viewed as a divine punishment, which the crash had been a judgment on the parents for wickedness. I who came up with these examples?

[00:03:17] Nina Endrst: I'm sorry. Can you read that example again?

[00:03:20] Anna Toonk: Yes. And this is from Oxford languages, a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment. The example, the crash had been a judgment on the parents for wickedness.

[00:03:32] Nina Endrst: Oh, my God.

[00:03:33] Anna Toonk: That's real bad. Like, come on y'all. I'm judging that. I'm judging your example. The first thing that came to mind when I read that was I don't know about you, but one, I think of judgment as being really negative and I'll get into that later, but also the judgment card and tarot. And for all the people who don't listen, we'll let you know where we are in tarot talking about this. Judgment is the second to last major Arcana, and it's a big card, you know. We're coming to the end of the major Arcana.

So it's a really big spiritual culmination, or I would say it's a hard card, but it's inherently positive and it's a reward somewhat, I would say. But I struggled so much to understand the energy of it.

[00:04:30] Nina Endrst: Oh my God, same.

[00:04:31] Anna Toonk: Because it is kind of positive. It's so much about, you know, surrendering your self doubt, surrendering your self judgment. It's all these things in order to birth.

[00:04:40] Nina Endrst: With like your spiritual purpose.

[00:04:42] Anna Toonk: Yes, it's stepping into your higher purpose essentially. It's like, you know, it's stepping into your kind of life's work, I guess. I don't know, but it's a reward. It's a big thing. So when I read the second definition about like misfortune viewed as divine punishment or a calamity, I was like, Oh, yeah, that sort of sums up. I don't know about you, but like all my clients, all my students, I don't know if you've taught tarot. I don't know that about you. I don't know that about you.

[00:05:15] Nina Endrst: I teach it individually.

[00:05:16] Anna Toonk: That's what I thought. Yeah. I figured you. Yeah. Everybody's really struggled with judgment. So I was curious...

[00:05:22] Nina Endrst: Everyone is always like freaked out by it. They're like oh God I'm being judged.

[00:05:26] Anna Toonk: Exact. Totally.

[00:05:29] Nina Endrst: This is it. I'm here. This is the judgment day.

[00:05:32] Anna Toonk: And people are always like, oh, and I'm like, no, I'm like, it's good to see. And I feel like, and judgment reversed is interesting because really what's funny is like, when I first started getting into tarot and I had like no idea, I had sorta set something into motion. I kept pulling judgment reversed.

And I think about judgment reversed a lot of like, when you know, you have to do something, but don't know why. You're like, I have no idea. And I was like, I don't know why I'm taking this you know, I'm doing this mentorship with Lindsay Mac. Like I have no idea why as a television producer I'm spending all this money to learn tarot. Like, I've no idea why I'm doing this.

[00:06:15] Nina Endrst: Right.

[00:06:15] Anna Toonk: I just know I'm supposed to, you know. And during that process, I pulled judgment reversed almost every single day. And it wasn't till later when I was like looking at my journals and stuff and was like, oh my God. It's like, that's so exactly how judgment reversed plays out.

Like you make a decision, you have no idea what's going to unfold from it. So I was curious, like, did you have resistance to understanding the energy of judgment? And do you think it's because it is the most incorrectly named terrible card in the Arcana?

[00:06:49] Nina Endrst: I mean, it took me a long time and I, you know, I dunno if this used to happen to you, but when I was younger, sometimes I'd find myself reading something for school and then I'd be like, well, I'm on chapter seven and I have no fucking idea what just happened. Time to start over.

So with the judgment card in the first, you know, definitely year, I would have to like sit with the definition over and over and over again, but I couldn't understand the name either. And I think there's so much. I mean, I think it's good. I I've now think of it as kind of this. I'm not into religion obviously, but this moment of this higher power, like looking down on you and being like, you're good, like, this is great.

Don't worry, man. Everything's going great. Like you're aligning with it. Yeah. This is all good. But upside down, I think of a lot of it is kind of not necessarily ignoring, but not understanding the call. And so I feel like for a long time, judgment would show up for me in my life as not really wanting to hear what my intuition was saying or what the signs I was getting were saying, and not in a negative way. I just wasn't ready to, to really understand them.

But I do think it has a lot to do with the inner critic as well when that's very strong in us. So I understand why people are a little bit scared of it or they're just, they're unsure of what on the other side of it.

[00:08:26] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Well, I mean, anytime you're sort of being invited to step in to a void is like, not exactly what most of us like to do. You know, it's scary.

[00:08:37] Nina Endrst: What I was gonna say is I think people are also a little bit and I feel the same way. They don't really want to sit with how they are judgmental.

[00:08:47] Anna Toonk: Yes.

[00:08:47] Nina Endrst: And so when that card comes up, I think it's a big old, let's talk about your judgments. Let's talk about how you judge other people, even though that's not what the card is about.

[00:08:57] Anna Toonk: No, thank you.

[00:08:58] Nina Endrst: Yeah, I'm going to politely decline.

[00:09:03] Anna Toonk: I would like to RSVP no.

[00:09:07] Nina Endrst: So I think that's a lot too. And I think that happened for me at the beginning where I'm like, Hmm. Okay, but it's not what the card is about. However, I think it's helpful that it sparks that in us because we do need to talk about our judgment and also how we judge ourselves and others.

[00:09:31] Anna Toonk: Well, I think it's kind of, yeah. And I think that it's a good card that brings up what are the ways in which you limit yourself? You know, like what are the ways you say you're not good enough for something. Like you were saying the inner critic and things like that. Because I mean, we can say this, that, and the other about anyone outside of us, but nine times out of 10, the calls coming from inside the house, you know. Like it's us, unfortunately. You know, like this is outside of systemic forms of oppression.

I mean, just literally like more often than not, it's us getting in the way where dreams, which I think can be really difficult to understand, you know. It is these different forms of judgment. So I was looking for quotes cause I was just curious, you know, like what did people have to say? And I'd loved that Albert Kamoo said people hastened to judge in order not to be judged themselves. True. True. And then I loved what Hermann Hesse has said, who wrote Siddhartha, it is not for me to judge another man's life. I must judge. I must choose. I must burn purely for myself for myself alone.

[00:10:46] Nina Endrst: Hm.

[00:10:46] Anna Toonk: Yes. And then I was kind of looking at the differences between judgment, judgmental, criticism and stuff. And I found on theeverygirl.com why making judgements is bad for your mental health. The Every Girl making unhelpful and overly critical comments is not only a manifestation of our own insecurities and self-esteem, but it can make our own insecurities and self-esteem even worse. Research shows that being judgmental of others can negatively affect your self-esteem more than any outside force.

[00:11:22] Nina Endrst: A hundred percent agree.

[00:11:24] Anna Toonk: Which I do too. And I found it really interesting because my mom is incredibly critical and she's worked on it. She's way better now, but that's still the person I grew up with. It was very critical. And I used to say in therapy all the time, well, I don't want to be judgemental. I don't want to be judgemental. I don't want to be judgemental before being like this dude did this really terrible thing. Should I break up with him?

But I don't want to be judgemental, you know? And finally, my therapist was like, what is with you not wanting to be judgmental? What is this resistance to judgment? And I was like, well, it's not good. You know? And like, it's mean, and she's like, no, it's a method of discernment. It's a way we make decisions. It's a way and a tool to keep ourselves safe. We gotta get you to have a healthy relationship with judgment. And that was really difficult for me to learn the difference kind of between judgment and judgmental.

[00:12:27] Nina Endrst: It's a huge difference. My parents were the same way. I think they've both worked on it a lot as well, but I wonder if it's that generation. It's kind of a generational thing too. I, I was hyper aware of it and it made me really uncomfortable. And I was always trying to find the complete opposite because I was like, why do you care what that person is doing?

It's just, what does that matter? You know, or, and I've said this, my dad was a TV critic. So one time he was like, I don't know that I like that you called me that I'm like, that was your title, dude. Like you were a TV critic. But he would say these things about these people, he'd be like, oh, that guy's an asshole. And I'm like, the guy you've never met before?

[00:13:14] Anna Toonk: The man, you have no relationship with?

[00:13:16] Nina Endrst: How can you be so sure by watching him on television that he is an asshole? But I think we as a culture, sorry, Paps, as a culture, we've gotten so comfortable criticizing people that we don't fucking know or that we do.

[00:13:34] Anna Toonk: Yes.

[00:13:35] Nina Endrst: Celebrities or the woman down the street or whoever. And it's just unbelievable to me how much that is really actually, we foster that in community quote, you know. Where with women, it's like, let's get together and talk a bunch of shit. I was lucky enough not to be in a group of girlfriends like that, but I will never forget. I was with one of my dear friends in the city when I lived there and I met her girlfriends for the first time from home.

And she's like, yeah, they're always texting under the table about each other. And I was like, what. Aren't they best friends?

[00:14:12] Anna Toonk: You know, you can just not be friends?

[00:14:14] Nina Endrst: You know, you could just not come to this dinner, right? What do you mean? So, but the anxiety I saw from her and the way they interacted, it was like I was at the zoo. I couldn't, I've never been around women like that. And I was blown away by the anxiety it produced, but also the posturing, right. They were being someone that they weren't, or they were, you know, testing the waters or whatever. And it just seems so fucking uncomfortable. Yeah. I mean, I'm lazy, which is funny.

[00:14:45] Anna Toonk: There's a new book that's come out about like, you're not actually lazy. And I was like, I'm might need to read that.

[00:14:51] Nina Endrst: But I might have been too lazy.

[00:14:53] Anna Toonk: Yeah. But I might be too lazy. I mean, God, the amount of books, like if we, if you don't...

[00:14:57] Nina Endrst: You are the least lazy person.

[00:14:58] Anna Toonk: Well, it's kind of true. I mean, I should quit saying. I need to rebrand, but that seems like a lot of work. You could just like, not be friends with those people. I don't know about you, but I hear, and we should probably do an episode. I think we have one coming up about relationships or friendships. I can't remember, but we should maybe do one on old friends because I don't know about you.

[00:15:18] Nina Endrst: I'm not ready for this.

[00:15:20] Anna Toonk: I mean at this point I do. I mean, I do have old friendships, but I mean, I've weeded out a lot of them because I was like. Kind of like, you know, the clue that, you know, you're dating someone you probably shouldn't be is when you have to be like, listen, he's a really good guy but, and then you have to like give all the like disclaimers.

It's like, I feel that way sometimes about like old friends and I'm like, what is it about us that is just like, gives this meaning to like, I've known the. It's like, do we think that we'll like, forget our childhood? Do we think? I mean, I've moved around a lot.

[00:15:56] Nina Endrst: You're hitting real close to home right now, Anna.

[00:15:59] Anna Toonk: Alert, alert. But I'm just like, it seems like a lot of work without a lot of return. But I was curious because I think being judgmental is at a all-time high, thanks to the pandemi. And...

[00:16:15] Nina Endrst: And social media.

[00:16:17] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yes. Do you have judgment triggers? I feel like I have judgment triggers. I mean, definitely about like vaccination.

[00:16:30] Nina Endrst: Um, politics, vaccination, racism, spiritual bypassing, racism, ignorance that is chosen, you know.

[00:16:39] Anna Toonk: Yes, yeah. Okay.

[00:16:41] Nina Endrst: People who are know at alls. Bossy people. Yeah. I have a lot of judgment triggers and I feel it. My child is. Bad drivers. There's a good one. Trucks, people who drive in trucks. My kid has been incredibly helpful because he sits in the back seat, obviously in his car seat. And when we're driving, sometimes I'll say something not meaning to, but I do.

And he's like, it's okay, mom. And I'm like, oh shit. You're right. It is okay, honey. It is okay that, that guy has a bumper sticker that says, fuck Biden. That's fine. Sure. I'll let it go. I don't need to meet it. That's been a struggle for me is to not gobble up all of that feeling because I feel it in my body when I start to become judgmental of, and I'm triggered in that way, I feel like it's a fear thing for me.

It's not oh, I wish I was that because sometimes I do think we judge other people because, you know, if we want what they have or it's kind of a jealousy thing or whatever.

[00:17:46] Anna Toonk: For sure. For sure.

[00:17:47] Nina Endrst: Yeah. But in this way, I think it's a fear thing for me. Most of my triggers are fear based and things that make me feel unsafe. Right. I don't feel safe around people who don't believe in science. I don't feel safe around people who don't, who have like really aggressive bumper stickers. I don't feel safe, et cetera. So, I do have triggers. I wanted to ask you why you think women specifically are taught to connect through being judgmental of others and themselves?

[00:18:18] Anna Toonk: Well, I think it relates back to traditionally women's value was the way they looked so that they were a prize. And therefore, I mean, we were regarded as property. So I think we're still trying to get rid of that. That it doesn't matter if someone is hotter or like that we don't always have to have this yard stick out. That we're not in competition, you know? Or, I mean, like if that's how you want to roll, that's your prerogative, but...

[00:18:51] Nina Endrst: No judgment.

[00:18:53] Anna Toonk: Yeah, no judgment, but also like, that's not what I want to participate in, you know. But I think it is that women are really sold this idea. I see this a lot with my mom, as I try to like tackle some of her fatphobia and you know, it's so hard for her to divest from like, you know, thinness, meaning she's better. Because I mean, that's really what she's hitched her wagon to.

[00:19:21] Nina Endrst: Is your mom thin?

[00:19:23] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Nina Endrst: Okay.

[00:19:25] Anna Toonk: And it gives her a feeling she feels safe in that. You know, cause it gives her a sense of superiority. So a lot of the women we're talking about, you know, of our peers. It really became clear to me the more I got into feminism how much work is still to be done, you know. That I just kinda thought like our moms had gotten farther and I'm not like, I mean, I'm not saying it in a way of like, oh, I thought they did more. You know, I just feel really ignorant, you know, like I just didn't really realize.

And I did grow up in a very, like, kind of traditional of like, you know, my mom was a housewife like technically, but, you know, she had a million side hustles. But my dad was like very much like the executive kind of, you know, husband. And, but she was very much like an accessory to him, you know? And I just like knew very early on that I was not interested in that. So like I also, I guess haven't really surrounded myself with women invested in that either.

However, in New York, because dating is a nightmare here. I think it really triggers women to be like, oh, like if I buy into this, if I buy into, like, I am a whole complete person without a partner, if I buy into, like, I can be my full self and find someone who will love me, like, am I going to get screwed? And it's like, well, what does that mean? You know, that you won't have a husband and two kids and like a three bedroom apartment. Like, what does that mean? You know what I mean? But I think a lot of that is about worth. It's like figuring out in your friend group where you fall.

[00:21:01] Nina Endrst: Yeah.

[00:21:01] Anna Toonk: And what your value is, you know, rather than reminding yourself at any time, you can define your worth. You can do that from inside, you know, and then you can tell the world. You know, like this is the price of admission to be in my life, you know. Versus being like, okay, well, at least I'm not like as ugly as her, but I'm definitely not as pretty as her. I mean, like there are women having those conversations in their friend groups or in their head about their group.

[00:21:30] Nina Endrst: I know it's terrifying and sad.

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[00:21:40] Anna Toonk: We get it. It's a cluttered world making it even harder to find the right tools for existing.

[00:21:46] Nina Endrst: That's why we created The Soul Unity, a digital community with movement, meditation, and spiritual wellness classes for everyone.

[00:21:53] Anna Toonk: It's your personal online roadmap to wellness for mind, body and soul.

[00:21:57] Nina Endrst: Listeners of this podcast can get two weeks free by going to the membership page of thesoulunity.com and selecting the how to be human option in the dropdown menu.

[00:22:06] Anna Toonk: Sign up today for full access to our robust library of contents. New classes are added weekly.

[00:22:17] Nina Endrst: You know, I went to a barre class. There's four people, thanks to upstate. I don't have to be in like crowded places, but I was like, I just need to leave the house. And masked and vaxxed and all that. But anyway, we were at this barre class, and there were four of us, and the woman next to me who happened to be named Nina also.

[00:22:35] Anna Toonk: That's funny.

[00:22:36] Nina Endrst: She was definitely younger than me, and I haven't been to a group class in a long time. And I generally despise them, even though I love teaching them. I don't love being in them a lot because of the competition. Because of the looking and because of the, you know, mirrors and all of that stuff. So I was like, fuck it. I'm here. I'm just going to be in the zone.

And after she came up to me and was like, you're so strong. And I was like, that is a real mother fucking chick right there. Like I have not come into contact with a stranger that's a woman who's as confident as that in a long time, which is sad. I mean, again, I don't leave my house, but it's nice to say those things to people. Right?

[00:23:16] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:23:17] Nina Endrst: And notice other people. It doesn't take anything away from her and I'm still thinking about it. It was a couple of days ago and it really was so kind. And I was like, I am strong. And I didn't need her to tell me that, but it made me feel connected in a way where I was like, oh, maybe all hope is not lost with the female friends.

[00:23:37] Anna Toonk: And it's nice to feel seen, you know? And I think it's nice for someone to like. I like it when people reflect something back to me, I guess, that I care about. And I think you care about being, you know, viewed as strong. So like, yeah, it's nice. You know.

[00:23:54] Nina Endrst: It was nice.

[00:23:55] Anna Toonk: Do you feel that you have things in your life that people have consistently judged you for?

[00:24:04] Nina Endrst: Oh my God. I'm going to just put the blanket over my head now.

[00:24:09] Anna Toonk: Well, I have one question that I'm curious about.

[00:24:12] Nina Endrst: I know you're going to ask I think, but go ahead.

[00:24:14] Anna Toonk: What do you think I'm going to ask?

[00:24:15] Nina Endrst: This is nothing. I'm not going to tell you. I'm not going to cheat. Don't cheat.

[00:24:19] Anna Toonk: Well, you're still breastfeeding and I'm curious.

[00:24:21] Nina Endrst: Oh, I didn't think that was what you're gonna say.

[00:24:23] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Like I'm curious cause I think that's something that people can be judgy about.

[00:24:28] Nina Endrst: Just used it to get out of jury duty. So suck it.

[00:24:34] Anna Toonk: So that's really funny.

[00:24:35] Nina Endrst: I was like, can't leave my kid. Still breastfeeding.

[00:24:38] Anna Toonk: I just like don't understand why people like, would you give a shit? I mean, I've heard it and I'm curious, how real is it? Versus it something that's like a plot point on a TV show.

[00:24:50] Nina Endrst: People do that to women all the time.

[00:24:53] Anna Toonk: Well, it's true. You can't win in any regard about breastfeeding I feel like.

[00:24:57] Nina Endrst: That specifically. No. And here's the. I say this often I wear a lot of stern emotion on my face.

[00:25:06] Anna Toonk: It's true.

[00:25:07] Nina Endrst: People don't often fuck with me to my face.

[00:25:11] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I could see that.

[00:25:13] Nina Endrst: I think that I give a very clear message of I'm not to be fucked with to my face. Now, I don't want you talking about my back either, but I definitely don't invite criticism. I'm not saying that women do, but I think that sometimes when we're out in kind of, there's just a body language sometimes too, you know? Oh, should I be doing this? Or, oh, is this? And I get it because people are very judgmental or friends around or relatives. But I try to make it crystal that I'm not asking for your opinion unless I'm asking for your motherfucking opinion.

[00:25:48] Anna Toonk: I was going to say, I don't know that it's like, you're talking behind your back or whatever. I'm sure they do. I mean, just cause that's human beings. However, I do think you draw a really clear, energetic boundary of kind of like what's up for discussion and what isn't. Like, I feel clear in about it. I mean, but also, like I said, I'm lazy that I'm just like, cool. You know, like that's what I find really interesting about people sometimes with judgment, not to say I'm not judgmental or judging people all the time I am, but it's interesting to me that like, These things.

It took me a while to realize how much too in my family it's weaponized. That my mom would be like, you know, I didn't tell you sometimes when I was going down to Atlanta, because like, I didn't want to hear your judgment. And I'm like, is it judgment during a pandemic? Listen, my mom was the horniest for COVID. She was constantly trying to get it.

And I'm like, maybe you goblin, it's not just that I don't want you to get COVID, but it's also that I have one parent already dead. That I'm a little weird about my living one. You horny for respiratory death, woman.

[00:26:59] Nina Endrst: Maybe I care.

[00:27:01] Anna Toonk: Maybe I care, you crazy person.

But she was like, yeah. I mean, I quit telling you, cause you were like really judgmental and I was like, cool. I'm so glad we're lying and discussing that we're lying to each other. Cool. That seems like progress.

[00:27:13] Nina Endrst: That's a really good point. Weaponized. Yeah, I hear you. I feel you.

[00:27:19] Anna Toonk: That it was like interesting to me, like reading the definitions and seeing like aside from, you know, being, you know, smited by God that there isn't really like a negative connotation with judgment. It's like, that's where humans go wrong. Like, it's this thing that we were like allowed to make like decisions with, you know. And a way that we were a process, it was a process given to us by our brains, you know, to try to make decisions with, and then we went and we're like, how can we be total nightmares?

Like how can we be mean to people and make them think what they're doing is incorrect, you know? That I just, I'm like, that's so interesting to me. But I feel like I've always been judged about kind of being a little bit not a tattletale, but I've always called it like, you know, kind of being a truth-teller and being like, hello. Like, can we be in reality? You know, that, that has been something that I've felt really judged about. Cause it's something that's always, I was trying to explain, you know, not just to my mom, but to my brother as well.

Like, you know, like fatphobia and I said to my brother, I was like, you're a fat phobic too. And he's like, that really hurts. And I was like, you were raised in the same home I was like, you will have internalized it. Like we all contain these things.

[00:28:43] Nina Endrst: Are you?

[00:28:45] Anna Toonk: I'm yeah, I mean, I think I had to work to dismantle it, to be honest, you know. And I had to understand that my weight doesn't determine my value. Like I had to see what that judgment was. But I think for me, that dismantling or looking at my fatphobia and realizing how often when someone's talking about someone else's body or food choices or lifestyle, like they're really telling you how they feel about themselves. And they're telling you the monologue, I guess if it's in your own head, they're telling you the monologue in their head, you know, like they're telling you.

And my brother was like, what do you mean? I said, well, for example, when I arrived here today, you said like, you look good, you've lost some weight. I said, really you said that because you wanted me to compliment you on your weight loss. And he was like, Um, maybe. So, I mean, which I guess is kind of like everything.

I mean, everything we're saying is kind of like to be like, you know, now enough about you more about me, you know. But I do find that interesting so often is like, whenever we're judging, it's really information about ourselves. It's really telling what we're insecure about or afraid of, or where we're critical to ourselves or whatever. And I think that's part of what makes us super uncomfortable.

[00:30:07] Nina Endrst: I do too. And I think that if we could admit to ourselves or forget admitting to ourselves, to look at the fact that. Being judgmental and judgment or having good judgment or having a judgment about someone as in yeah that person something doesn't feel right. We were just at the art sculpture park and there was a woman, older woman and a man, and this woman just kept like looking at Milo. And I was like, I know he's cute, but this is freaking me out. And then she was like, hi. And I'm like, hi. And we kept walking and then she came back around, was like, do you hi?

And I'm like, all right, lady. Now, and then Milo shit you not two minutes later, it was like, mommy, I'm I feel a little scared. I'm like, yeah, we're in the middle of fucking nowhere. And there's a couple of sculptures and a creepy lady, like let's head back toward the building and the people. So it wasn't like I was looking at her saying listing off all the things that I thought were wrong with her. I had a judgment and intuitive hit that this lady was not someone I wanted to get near with my kid and we didn't. Right. But when we are being judgemental and criticizing people, it is 1000% about an internal issue that we're having. Period. End of sentence.

[00:31:38] Anna Toonk: The information you were receiving is this woman makes me uncomfortable. You know, and which is fair. Like, we don't always like, whatever, you know, but if you had been like that, woman's a freak. You know, like that's like, you know, it's when we're creating the narrative and just. Have we ever done a third definition?

I don't think we have, but I'm going to give the definition of judgemental just because we're throwing it around a lot. And so the first is of, or concerning the use of judgment, but then the key one that we're really talking about is having or displaying an excessively critical point of view. And I love that the example there was. I don't like to sound judgmental, but it was a big mistake.

[00:32:22] Nina Endrst: I actually looked it up and saw that one. And was like, oh my God, did my mother write that?

[00:32:30] Anna Toonk: Same, my mom would be like, oh, that's a bummer. But like, what did you do? You know, I do think that something, I think because I'm used to that. And also I think, cause I used to have a lot of self doubt, you know, about was I right or whatever that I would be really judgmental. Versus just using my judgment and going, like, I don't think that person's good for me or I don't think that situation is good for me.

You know, I called it building a case, you know. And I would be like, okay, let me build the case of like why this person or this thing, or whatever is bad. And inevitably, it starts making me find the ways that I'm bad, you know. Or I do think it becomes this black cloud and you and I are like, very anti toxic positivity or not loving and lighting our issues away. We don't think anything any.

[00:33:25] Nina Endrst: I could probably use some more of it.

[00:33:28] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But I do think it's like something like, I don't want to tell anybody, like, don't be judgmental. Just saying don't anything doesn't work.

[00:33:38] Nina Endrst: Just don't eat carbs and don't be judgemental and everything will be okay.

[00:33:42] Anna Toonk: Listen, have you tried yoga?

[00:33:44] Nina Endrst: Have you tried not eating pizza or wine? Drinking wine. Like everything is just like different when, you're vegan.

[00:33:50] Anna Toonk: No, because I love myself.

[00:33:52] Nina Endrst: Yeah no wine or pizza?

[00:33:55] Anna Toonk: I'm going to hang out with Nina. And I sent ahead of me 800 bottles of wine.

[00:34:01] Nina Endrst: And one is featuring snoop dog by the way. Every time I walk through the kitchen, I see Snoop Dog. Oh my God. Milo today was like, mommy, who is that? Oh, that's Snoop dog. He's like, why is his name Snoop Dog? I was like, and then I just kept singing Snoog Doogy Dog. But one thing you said to me in my, do you remember when you did a reading for me?

[00:34:22] Anna Toonk: Yes.

[00:34:23] Nina Endrst: Do you remember what you said?

[00:34:25] Anna Toonk: Not really cause I have you know, reading amnesia.

[00:34:27] Nina Endrst: Yeah. Same. You said something that it's going to make me really uncomfortable to talk about. So I figured I would talk about it.

[00:34:32] Anna Toonk: Ooh.

[00:34:34] Nina Endrst: You talked a lot about my body in the reading. And not, you made me uncomfortable, but you said you were talking about how it's an issue for other people.

[00:34:43] Anna Toonk: Yeah, I do remember that.

[00:34:45] Nina Endrst: I was like, I was like, I'm I feel like my pits are sweating a little bit. No one has ever said it to me in that way so clearly. And it wasn't like, I felt confronted by it, but I just wasn't expecting it. And I think I've said this before, when I, you know, would leave retreats sometimes. And I, I never say this out loud because it sounds really douche-y, but I would have a lot of women who would just not like me when they saw me. And I felt it. And I would spend time, not pretending, but just like, it's okay. Like I'm not, I'm not that bitch you know, whoever she is or whoever you think I am.

But it was very interesting to me that not, you know, the majority, but a lot of women didn't want to like me, it seemed or felt like they had to cut me down in some way or ask questions that were, you know, meant to be, to cut me down or, you know, questioning my credibility.

[00:35:46] Anna Toonk: I wonder if they were doing the whole, like, she might. Nina, is very hot for those who don't know. I wonder if they were doing it, like, she might be hot to bet she's dumb. Kinda like, I feel like women do a lot of that. Like, you might be blah but you're not blah. You know, like, Trying to figure out, like.

[00:36:04] Nina Endrst: Thanks for saying I'm hot. I appreciate that. Kind. I think you're hot too.

[00:36:09] Anna Toonk: Thanks.

[00:36:09] Nina Endrst: I think we're hot for each other.

[00:36:11] Anna Toonk: That's true.

[00:36:12] Nina Endrst: But I have felt that for a long time, which again, I don't say because my mom said that to me, a couple of times I used to think she was not being serious about it. Not that she was taunting me or anything, but she would be like, it must be hard sometimes. And I'm like what? She's like to be pretty. And I'm like, that's a weird, this is a weird conversation. I don't want to have this conversation.

[00:36:34] Anna Toonk: It is weird.

[00:36:35] Nina Endrst: And it made me feel didn't even want to say that, you know. And, but I have experienced many times that, you know, with women where it makes me feel weird and it sucks, but you know, there are worse problems to have obviously. But it does make it hard to, I think, forge connections with women.

[00:36:53] Anna Toonk: Emily Ratajkowski, emrata, who, yeah, well, she wrote, I'll send it to you. I know. Her book is very interesting, but she wrote a facinating, well, one her essay about like basically buying her body back. That it was powerful. And then a black Muslim, maybe queer woman wrote a piece in Gawker I think. It was either Gawker or Jezebel. I can't remember. Sort of talking, read another essay of hers and reflecting about how like having, uh, knowing full well, you're not the beauty ideal, what that, you know, and reacting to hearing someone who is the beauty ideals experience, you know. And hearing like oh, we kind of had similar problems in the sense. No, not at all, but like, I didn't, well, she's like, I read it thinking like I was going to be like, oh, you know, like beautiful girl problem, you know? And she's like, I was shocked. I like connected with it much more than I expected.

And I do think. I don't want to brag. Like I might not be as fun as Nina, but I'm deaf as pretty. And, but it's a thing that, you know, it is a that that people do project. They do judge. They do. It's been hard for me to really learn and internalize that there is a group of people out there that have a hard time being happy for other people, especially if they have something they want.

And so if you prize thinness over anything, of course, I'm gonna like be looking I'm on. If I'm judgmental, I'm judging myself. If I'm going on this retreat and thinking I'm going to like in a week, reboot my whole life from, by doing yoga daily. Of course, I'm going to project that onto you. There's just no way that I'm not going to think you're this skinny bitch who has what I want. You know, even though you've paid to be taught by this person, which is also what's really weird.

[00:39:01] Nina Endrst: What do you think the healing is? Or like a healing balm for being judgmental?

[00:39:07] Anna Toonk: I mean, just love yourself.

[00:39:09] Nina Endrst: If you could just like meditate on that.

[00:39:12] Anna Toonk: I think it's asking yourself, like when you find yourself being judgmental. So years and years and years ago, when I was like really angry, really critical, and just being horrible to myself. And yet I was so frustrated. I couldn't shift anything in my life, you know. And I was like, you know, which is like, think about.

[00:39:33] Nina Endrst: What is happening here?

[00:39:34] Anna Toonk: I know exactly like no one really wants to help me or be around me. They're like, oh, cool. This like snarling mess. Yes, please. You know.

[00:39:45] Nina Endrst: Why is everything bad?

[00:39:46] Anna Toonk: Why is everyone bad? You know, I was like, yeah, because you're so cool to be around. And so I started practicing, loving kindness meditation, or METTA M E T T A meditation. And it really helps, you know, why? Yeah. I mean, I hate to recommend meditation cause I feel like it's, it's become so cliche at this point, but if you even just read about it and read about like what really a loving kindness, you know, practice is. That building more compassion into my day-to-day life and just how I operated changed a lot for me.

And it also helped me look at when I was being really judgmental or when I wasn't using my judgment. When I was trying to be like radically nonjudgmental and really that meant no boundaries and allowing someone to do something, I probably shouldn't. Practicing that compassion and loving kindness helped me kind of go, whoa, whoa. What is going on here? Why am I having this whole conversation in my head about how like this woman's a dumb bitch? Is it just cause I'm like jealous that she's really pretty, you know. Why am I being like, I just don't want to be judgemental. I just don't want to be judgmental about this person's behavior.

Like, is there something making me uncomfortable? Knowing that like you're not bad for being judgmental, you're reacting to something and if you don't do the inquiry, that's when you're maybe becoming an asshole. You know, so if you can figure out the way to stop yourself when it fires to build in that inquiry and go, whoa, what's going on here? You'll just, I mean, more than anything. Yes. It'll make you a better person out in the world, but more than anything, you will feel so much better.

[00:41:27] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I agree. Do you like Brandon Carlisle?

[00:41:30] Anna Toonk: I do.

[00:41:31] Nina Endrst: I love her voice. I just, sometimes I listen to her. I just kind of think of my mom and I don't know. Anyway, there's in a good way. There's a quote.

[00:41:42] Anna Toonk: All that time on the road?

[00:41:45] Nina Endrst: I've driven a total of 10 miles in the past, like three weeks. I mean, three days. No, I don't know if that's true. But at least two miles. I've been driving a lot. Okay. And I finally figured out how to hook up my Bluetooth.

[00:41:57] Anna Toonk: Makes me laugh.

[00:41:59] Nina Endrst: You should, because I'm like me in the open road. I'm like literally going to Pilates down the street. Whatever you don't even drive. So anyway, one of the songs that just came on recently was there's a line where she says, was I a blessing to everyone I meet or I met or something like that. And that's a good one for me to remember when I go out in the world, because you can go out in the world.

I know I can with a chip on my shoulder ready to judge. And it's because I'm defensive and I'm defensive of my space. You know, I want to feel safe and I want to feel like good and I can relax. And so sometimes I find myself just kind of puffing up my chest and that's when I become judgmental. When I think somebody is like up in my shit out in the world. But this was an interesting kind of healing balm for me of could I just go out and expect the best from people and try to see that and in myself. And then maybe things will be a little bit easier and not as stressful. And start there.

[00:43:03] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my therapist always says the goal of therapy is for us to feel safe inside of ourselves and to know no matter what happens, we'll be okay. And I think. Yeah. I mean, the show's over, we're fine. Like all that shit you're worried about. It doesn't matter anymore. I think though like exactly what you're saying about those defenses. Like when you feel that stuff, you know, when you feel that, you know, you're building the case or you're making a case, why that person just to kind of go, none of that's happened yet.

Like I'm okay. I will take care of myself. I'll if I need to remove myself from the situation, I will. If a scary lady is licking her chops at your child, you're going to go towards the building. I just think of the big, bad Wolf. Yeah. And she was like, hi.

[00:43:53] Nina Endrst: Yeah. It was pretty bizarre. I'm not going to lie. So in closing.

[00:43:57] Anna Toonk: In closing.

[00:43:59] Nina Endrst: What's one judgment you've turned around?

[00:44:01] Anna Toonk: Ooh.

[00:44:02] Nina Endrst: When were you wrong?

[00:44:04] Anna Toonk: I think judging people who want kind of like very normal lives, to be honest. I think I was defensive about my own life and choices. And that was a way for me of countering people being like, oh my God, you're still single. You know, that I was really judgmental about people who like either married or have kids or whatever, kind of young, you know, like were very settled in their lives. You know, I think I was really judgmental for a long time about that.

[00:44:30] Nina Endrst: And did you feel a difference when you let that go?

[00:44:33] Anna Toonk: Definitely. I think also too, it helped me with my relationships with people. I mean, I'm sure some of my friends will be like, yeah, you're a real asshole at times. But it really helped me realize it was about me. You know, that it was like me making my peace with my decisions. It was never about them all along.

[00:44:52] Nina Endrst: Isn't that the lesson? Well, we hope you enjoyed our chats.

[00:44:57] Anna Toonk: Thank you, and thank you to everyone who keeps DM-ing and listening and telling friends. We cannot tell you enough how much we appreciate you. And if you want more of us, you can always get a two week free trial thesoulunity.com.

[00:45:15] Nina Endrst: Come hang out with us thesoulunity.com and also can I ask you guys to leave a review? Because it really helps.

[00:45:23] Anna Toonk: It really does. I mean, that's the thing that gets impressed upon us all the time. So now you understand why every podcast you listen to is like please.

[00:45:31] Nina Endrst: Come on. I'm really asking.

[00:45:33] Anna Toonk: We're really asking. No judgment.

[00:45:37] Nina Endrst: If you don't, but if you do.

[00:45:38] Anna Toonk: If you don't, no judgment.

[00:45:40] Nina Endrst: All right. Until next time.

[00:45:43] Anna Toonk: Bye.

[00:45:48] Nina Endrst: That's all for today's episode.

[00:45:50] Anna Toonk: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/howtobehuman.

[00:45:57] Nina Endrst: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

[00:46:05] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.