If you got a problem?

Lottie's got the answer?

She won't sugarcoat them?

Cause it's Lottie and Lottie don't lie?

Cause it's Lottie and Lottie don't lie?

Hello to Lottie don't lie.

It is Samantha and Melissa.

Welcome.

Welcome back.

How are you?

I'm doing good.

It's been a wild couple of weekends over here.

How about you?

You?

I'm good.

I'm good.

You actually have, like, a fun.

You had a really fun weekend the other, what, two weekends ago?

Yeah, Mother's Day weekend.

You guys might remember Vital.

I went to go watch one of her shows, and Melissa couldn't make it.

So some of my besties came to to support Arya and Britney and Courtney.

And you would think that when all of us get together, some real shit's gonna go down, right?

Like, we're gonna get into trouble.

Well, our first night there, actually, we got into Nashville.

We got our nails done, we ate barbecue, and then we just looked at each other, and we're like, let's get matching tattoos.

And so we go to the tattoo shop and somehow end up with matching dinosaur, like, cute little dinosaur tattoos with holding knives.

I don't know why or how.

They were just dinosaurs.

That's what we should do.

And we were all sober.

We did not have any alcohol.

Whose idea was it to get a murder dinosaur?

And was.

What was the reason behind it?

They were just hardcore, like, murder dinosaur.

It's so cute.

It's so funny.

And I'm like.

My thought is more of like, how about two of us get a slice of bread, like, cartoon, you know, with arms and legs, and one get a jar of peanut butter, and one get a jar of jelly, and we can be like peanut butter jelly sandwiches.

And I was like, that sounds fun and cute.

And they're like, murder dinosaurs.

I like what he did.

Yes.

Yeah.

Courtney, because she works in the school system, she, instead of a knife, has a flower.

And I was like.

I mean, I was sober.

Why didn't I think to put a freaking microphone dinosaur, like, instead of a knife?

Like, so cute.

I don't know what I was thinking.

And then after we got our matching tattoos, we got back to our apartment at 10pm we literally snuggled under our blankets in the living room and all read books until we fell asleep.

And that was our first night in Nashville.

But the next day, I'm not going to share quite what we got into, but we got into something, and we came back to the room.

We were like, what the Fuck did we do?

And we had a few drinks, and then I.

We just look around the room at each other, and I go, I'm gonna go get my nipples pierced.

And so we all, with little shots in our purse, go across the street, and we all get our nipples pierced.

And that.

That was Nashville.

Matching tattoos.

Sam came home, she called her, and Courtney called me on the way home, and she's like, so would you have done it, Melissa?

And I was like, absolutely not.

Oh, you would have.

You would have.

Especially if you went to the.

What the fuck?

Show that we went to.

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't.

The way for me to decompress is not to go inflict pain on my little nipples.

Well, it's.

It's a story.

It was.

Yeah, it's a story.

We call it Mom's Gone Wild.

And it's like, a story.

We really didn't go wild, but we did come home with odd stuff.

I want to go tattoo with y' all.

Y.

You should get one of the murder dinosaurs with us.

I would.

Yeah, I could put, like, a.

I would put a flower.

Courtney did.

And I would do a T.

Rex.

Like, Courtney, too, because I have short arms.

Apparently, she does, too.

Yeah.

So that happened.

And then I thought you guys would really appreciate this fail, so I'm just gonna go into that.

So we got this camper trailer, and Andrew helped me to go get it.

He drove me and Nora, like, two hours to go pick it up.

It took three hours to get it back home.

And we get it dropped in our yard and situated.

And it's a rehab project, so we gotta tear it apart and, you know, rebuild it.

And I.

The next day, Nora and I were the only ones home.

The kids were still at school.

Simon's at work, and we.

I take Nora into the camper so I can take some measurements, because I wanted to start measuring out some of the finishings that I want to put in in there.

And the camper door shuts as it does, and Nora and I are hanging out in the camper.

I'm doing my measurements, and then we're ready to get out.

And I go to open the camper door, and the, like, handle breaks.

But I couldn't tell if the handle breaks.

Cause I couldn't remember how you get out of the camper in the first place.

And so I'm sitting here, like, just aimlessly wiggling all these notches and turning all these things and pulling on all the things on the door, and I'm like, what the hell?

It won't open.

And so then Nora starts freaking out, and I'm like, it's fine.

It's fine.

This is adventure.

It's fine.

And she's not fine.

She.

She is in, like, catastrophic mode.

Like, she thinks we're about to die for some reason.

And so I'm like, okay, give me a second.

And I try to call Simon.

He doesn't answer.

I call him again.

He doesn't answer, call again.

And I'm like, crap.

Okay.

So I just text him 91 1.

And then I was like, you call Andrew?

Oh, he texted me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I was like, maybe his phone is just like, maybe he's just ignoring it because he's in an appointment, but it's still on, but he had it on airplane mode, so he wasn't getting the messages.

And so then I decided to call Andrew, and I call Andrew.

I'm like, hey, I think we're locked in the trailer, and it's, like, 90 degrees outside.

And so Andrew's like, oh, hold on.

Let me call you on video.

And so I get on video with Andrew, and.

And I'm showing him the nod, and I was like, I don't know which one of these opens the door, but none of them are opening the doors, so I don't know.

And, you know, Nora's just screaming.

And he goes, okay, well, maybe we need to get someone to try and open it from the outside.

And I was like, okay, yeah, all right.

You're probably right.

We can try that.

And, I mean, Nora and I were probably locked in the trailer for 45 minutes.

And then Amelia gets home from school, and I'm like, hello, Amelia.

Help us.

So she comes over to the trailer.

Well, actually, she calls me, and she goes, are you in the trailer?

Someone's calling you to the trailer?

That's adorable.

She's like, I know not to go to weird vehicles and get in them.

And I was like, yes, it's me.

Like, can you open the door?

We're stuck.

And she comes over, and she opens the door, and I'm like, oh, thank God.

And so Nora and I get out, and then we.

You know, we get out, we shut the camper door, and Amelia goes, did you try the other door?

No.

Like, yeah, there's a second door.

And I know she, oh, no, that's.

And I was like, oh, man, I feel so really stupid.

And so I tried it, and sure enough, that door works just fine.

If I just would have remembered that there was a door in the bedroom of the camper, and I felt really dumb until I went, you know what?

I had a freaking toddler screaming in my ear, freaking out.

Andrew was with me when I inspected it and bought it.

He, too, inspected and was there with me when I bought it.

He should have been like, did you try the second door?

So I'm gonna say that Andrew failed worse than I did.

Oh, no, I'm sticking to it.

Wow, that's a good story, Emelia.

She's like, am I the only sane one in this family?

Did you try the second door?

Like, no.

Stop it with your common sense.

That's adorable.

Melissa, I know that you had an unfortunate event, but it's really important to share because it would be so helpful, especially since we have conversations around safety about domestic violence and stuff.

And it's really not even a fail on you, but I feel like it's a fail in general.

That's really important.

Yeah.

So, as you guys know, I am a.

Well, I filed for divorce.

My attorney told me that she would.

As soon as the judge signed the papers, the guy who is supposed to serve Brett was supposed to call me and say, hey, I'm serving him this day, this time, so that I would know what's going on.

And I had planned this whole time, like, to give Brett a heads up, because I think, one.

It's only fair to not, like, have to be sideswiped with something like that.

And I really.

He is kind of in a very emotional and sensitive state since I've left, and I didn't want to surprise him with it.

So I was going to be like, hey, you know, in the next couple days, you're going to be served with.

I filed for divorce.

So suddenly, one night this week, I get a text from Brett, and he's just really, really, really upset, saying some pretty awful things.

And then he says, I just got the divorce thing, and now I have to spend tons of money to figure out how much you're gonna, like, try to screw me over with.

And I was just like, wait, what is going on?

And it was late at night.

And so I didn't respond yet.

Cause I wanted to talk to the attorney, my attorney first.

So I called her the next day, first thing, and she's like, we know we're waiting on the judge to sign the paper still.

So, like, I can promise you, we did not serve him.

And so I was just.

So I texted Brett back, and I was just like, what are you talking about?

He said, I got the divorce thing.

And I was like, what divorce thing?

And he just kind of Was being very.

He was being very elusive.

And so then finally it came out that some attorney that was looking for a buck, I guess, goes on the state website, like.

And you have to make an account to, like, go on there.

It's a thing.

And he looks at all the people who have recently filed and he goes and contacts their exes.

I think it's disgusting.

It really, really upset me because, like, what if I was in a situation where I wasn't out of the home and he was abusive?

I'm gonna say Brett is not physically abusive and never has been to me.

But.

It'S just ridiculous that somebody.

It's like a freaking ambulance chaser would go and do something like that just to make some money.

He knows that Brett's in a volatile state.

Probably all the people that he contacts, he knows that.

And he knows, like, if he can, like, stir them up and get them all worried and scared, he can make money.

So I'm pretty upset.

It is Memorial Weekend, so happy Memorial Day, everybody.

So I'm waiting till.

Yeah.

Tomorrow, Tuesday to call the attorney and just give her a heads up.

And I feel like something like that should be illegal.

I mean, we do a lot of work with domestic violence, I feel like.

And a lot of, you know, acknowledgement towards it and why I've never heard that you filed for divorce and someone could find out and then contact your.

The person you're filing against.

Like, that could be so dangerous for someone.

Yeah, it could.

I mean, he's a lawyer, so he should know the rules, so I guess it's not illegal.

That's.

That's a joke.

That's a joke.

So I was.

I'm going to talk to her tomorrow and just see, like, if there's anything I can do.

And what would.

What would a woman do if she's wanting to file now?

Now she's even more scared to.

Right.

Because something like this could happen.

So I do know that your attorney wants to be on the podcast, so maybe we can have her on and talk about situation a little bit.

Yeah, not your situation, but, like, that type of situation.

Like, absolutely.

100%.

Oh, yeah.

She's seen some things.

She's been doing this for years, but, yeah, we'll find out.

I'll get some more information and come back.

Yeah, for sure.

To the pod.

So, yeah, that happened.

Fun stuff.

Well, at least we can hopefully help someone with it.

So.

Yeah.

Keep someone safe.

Today is our last episode for Mental Health Awareness Month, and it is your story.

It is.

I'm a little nervous Because I haven't heard it at all since we recorded.

I didn't have a super big plan when I went in on how to tell the story.

I think, actually, speaking of fails, I think my fail probably was that I had told you, Sam, that I wanted to talk about my miscarriages, but I didn't really talk to you about how.

I also wanted to talk about my whole mental health journey.

And so I feel like you thought I was jumping around a little bit.

You were worried about time, which I freaked you out about time because I.

Didn'T get to the one part of.

The story in time.

And so I don't know how it's gonna come across as the recording guys.

I don't know.

I feel like we're gonna find out together.

Well, you know, what isn't like, don't most of us have, like, ADHD and anxiety and stuff?

And I feel like this is a perfect depiction of what it may end up being like.

And that's also mental health.

Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for that.

And also, I forgot to say, me.

Being paranoid of like, wait, wait, we got.

We gotta be on time.

And, you know, my little.

You're talking about you.

No, no, you're good.

I mean, you were like, are we gonna tell the things she came here to tell?

And I was like, well, wait, I really wanted to tell everything.

And so it was just failed communication on my part.

But also, I wanted to point out I'm very excited because we have the glorious and not elusive.

We talk about her every month, every week.

Every day.

She joined us on the podcast because, yeah, she's been through a lot of my past with me and seen it happen.

So I just kind of wanted that, like, extra support to help me tell my story and.

And it was really cool.

And she's also.

It is cool to hear her like back of it.

So.

Yeah, and it was cool because there was a couple times when or at least once that she said something.

I was like, oh, I don't remember it.

I did not remember it that way.

And then also getting her therapeutic insight.

She didn't therapize me.

Cause that wouldn't be ethical.

But she definitely had some insight and some helps for people going through some of the same stuff.

So what's also, like, interesting is that after my episode, I can hear a toddler after my episode came out, Simon listened to it and he actually came to me after he listened to it and he had gotten really emotional and he was like, you.

It's.

He was like, it's crazy.

Not crazy.

He said, it was interesting to hear me give my regulations of what had happened.

And he was just really emotional because he was like, that's not even the half of it.

He was like, you.

You don't.

He's like, it's crazy what you don't remember.

I mean, I understand what you don't remember.

And he was like, it was.

It was devastating.

It was a lot.

It was hard.

Yeah.

Traumatic.

Yeah.

He was like, it was very traumatic.

And you did not depict it as.

As traumatic as it was.

And I was like, well, I really tried to just say what I remember, and that's what I remember.

And so I.

At some point, maybe we'll have him on to talk about the full spectrum and what it was like to have when you have the full memory of what was going on.

Yeah.

Yeah, that'll be interesting.

So you're gonna hear us towards the end go, oh, we forgot about this, and end abruptly.

I have no idea how far.

How far you guys will hear, but you might hear that.

And that happened.

If it doesn't.

If it doesn't get it edited.

Yeah.

All right.

Enjoy our last episode for mental health awareness and Happy Memorial Day.

Happy Memorial Day.

Oh, I will add, be gentle with me, because I get real vulnerable.

You do.

Of course they're going to be gentle.

All right, so do you want to remind everyone who we have with us today?

Today?

Yes, I do.

It is the one and only Melissa Walker.

Not the one that we mention in every episode.

Yeah.

Oh, that's right.

She's like, oh, no, no, seriously.

One day that I was.

I was sick, and I, like, spent the whole day laying in bed catching up on Yalls podcast.

I was like, is this supposed to, like.

Wait, what did you say?

Is this supposed to be, what, this.

Much of an ego boost, listening to my friends?

Oh, absolutely.

Please take it.

That is so funny.

I love it.

No, but seriously, everyone, like, anyone, if we're like, what's your favorite episode?

Or what episode meant the most to you?

They're always like, that episode with the therapist, Melissa Walker, because there were, like, actual resources and tangible things that, like, we actually learned and could utilize.

Yeah.

So actually, one of my personal friends, close friends from high school, she was like, no, I.

I didn't realize I had postpartum depression, like, really, really bad.

And because of that episode, I learned that you can search for a therapist like that, you know, and how to find one that's comfortable for you.

And she was like, I was able to find one that way.

So.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm so glad.

Yeah.

I mean, not yay for the postpartum, but yay that she was able to.

Because that's one of the things that mental health is like this big ambiguous thing and people hear about therapy, but there are all these like misconceptions and every TV show ever has terrible portrayals of unethical, poor therapists and when they're good, they turn out to be the villain.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know.

I feel like in the newer generation it's becoming very more normal in actually what everyone doesn't.

I haven't technically released it yet, but I'm sure you guys may have heard by time this drops, but I'm getting licensed in RTT therapy and my goal is to use that and teach schools that this needs to be part of the educational system.

Like we shouldn't be 30 years old learning about attachment styles and how to add affirmations and how that can really affect our day to day life.

And just like all these like little tidbits that we should be taught in school.

So my goal is, once I get licensed is we're gonna get this in schools one way or the other.

Yeah, it's so cool.

So I, I just have to say she's actually even speaking with somebody who, who is part of the program that she's gonna go to, who has done it in over in uk.

Okay.

But yeah, I have not even heard of this.

So this is like a license that.

Like I will not be a therapist in general.

Like I didn't, I didn't go through all the like schooling.

This is a therapist licensed in this program.

So basically it's like a hypnosis type of let's contact your subconscious, go to the root cause of like what has stemmed this negativity thought or this limited self belief or whatever and then reframe that mind and so you're solving it from the subconscious to come out.

And you can do that without their licensing.

Me and hypnosis, we have to go through like a business course.

We have to go through, what's it called, like when you go to the doctor.

Hipaa.

We have to go through like a HIPAA certificate.

Certificate thing or course.

And.

Yeah, like what a six month program?

It's a ten month program.

I can hear you.

You're like, this doesn't sound legit.

I, I have, I have questions, but I'm excited for you.

But because this is releasing, this episode, we'll be dropping like the mental health month.

This is excited to kind of talk about some mental health journeys that we've been through.

Yeah, I say we, but I'm more talking about myself.

We're going to talk about me today.

We are.

But, you know, now that you mentioned that my story will have already been released.

The one who taught us about rtt.

Yeah, she will have already been released.

That's true.

It all fits.

It's very interesting.

It's very.

It's somewhat akin to emdr.

Have you heard of rtt?

Okay, yeah.

What's the neat.

What's Rabid Transitional therapy?

Oh, wait, did you say it's from the uk?

Because I do Google something recently and maybe it was that somebody asked me if I had heard of it and.

I.

Marissa Pierre is the creator.

Who?

It was a guy.

I thought, oh, there's two.

A guy created RRT and then a female created rtt.

Okay.

Are they the same?

Just like, different names?

Similar.

I think I looked at the RRP website.

That one is what licensed professionals like will go through and it is studied to help in intense trauma, ptsd, like veterans type stuff.

RTT is a little less of that.

Like having to be already a licensed professional.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah.

Anyways, I want to talk about you, but.

Okay, so the reason we have Melissa Walker on today is because, like, you've been there, like, for me through everything.

We met when I was 19.

Yeah.

I was 20.

Like, Ivy wasn't born yet.

Yeah, 20.

I was 20.

And how did you guys meet?

Like in a school, like college or.

Like I was a nanny in Ohio and I went to church and I met Melissa.

Oh, yeah, In Ohio.

Yes, in Ohio.

My husband.

I went to Hiram College and our church was in Hiram, Ohio.

Melissa number three also went to Hiram College.

Yep.

I think she was on her mission at the time, though, if I remember correctly.

And yeah, she had just left.

I hadn't met her.

Yeah, they hadn't.

Melissa number one and Melissa number three hadn't met each other.

There was a bunch of Melissa's in that.

In that.

In that ward at church.

Oh, yeah, that's fine.

I have to number Andrews.

There's too many of them.

Oh, really?

Okay.

I've only.

Well, you can tell Andrew that he's the only one that I know.

He's the only one in my eyes.

Yes.

So actually I actually have a memory of when we first met and how, like.

And it kind of highlights, like, how like, not.

Okay, both of us were.

Oh, tell me.

And I think about this every now and then, but, like, we were talking in the Parking lot of church.

And we both kept saying I'm sorry for, like, nothing.

And we were like, I'm sorry.

No, I'm sorry.

No, I'm sorry.

No, I'm sorry.

Like this like, I'm sorry loop.

And I remember being really excited to meet you.

And, like, I got into the car with my husband and I left.

But, like, I was like, why were we both so sorry?

Like, there was nothing.

Like, that's how insecure we both were that we just like, had to apologize for.

Like.

Yeah, it's true.

And I still have a problem with that.

And then going to Japan on my mission didn't help either because, like, there you just.

Instead of saying, excuse me sorry, there's this you.

Instead of saying just excuse me.

Like, you say, I'm sorry for everything.

Yeah.

And so that kind of like made it even harder for me to get out of.

But when you guys met, is this pre licensed therapist Melissa?

Yeah.

So I.

I mean, I didn't get even go to grad school until like more than 10 years later.

Oh, okay.

And.

And I was in college at the time, and I was not like a psychology.

I mean, psychology majors don't learn anything anyway.

But I wasn't.

I was a major and an English minor.

So, like.

Yeah, I was not anywhere in any health space.

And I hadn't been to therapy or anything.

Oh, okay.

I hadn't either, actually.

Oh, we can talk about that too.

So you guys met each other when.

You guys.

We're both in a mentally different place than you are now.

Oh, for sure.

Yes.

Okay.

Now granted, I would hope that we would have been in a mentally different place.

I mean, we're 20 years later, right?

So if we haven't grown, then there's.

Something five years later.

Really over half our lives.

Like 25 years.

Like, I think 25.

Yeah, you're right because we met in 2019.

No, no.

Yes.

I was trying to say 1999.

Yeah, it was probably 1999.

That is so funny.

Yeah, it was.

Because I remember when I was a nanny, I remember I turned 20 there and she got me tickets to Phantom of the Opera.

My.

The people I worked for.

But anyway, okay, so, yeah, so I.

Would say this time kind of stems a lowest of the lows for you, like this time period.

Nope, nope.

This time period was me kind of spreading my wings a little bit, I.

Would say a little.

It wasn't the first time I'd lived away from home, like, by any means.

Like, actually, I didn't live at home before I went and became a nanny.

But I feel like I was in a different state.

I was just kind of.

I don't know.

I was just finding myself and making new friends and.

Yeah.

But I don't think I realized the effect that, like, growing up the way that I did maybe had on me, if that makes sense.

I think I was still in that, like, phase of thinking there wasn't anything to work.

Like, I never.

It didn't even enter my mind.

It never entered my mind.

That was like, a different type of lifestyle.

Yeah.

I would need therapy one day.

Yeah.

Okay, so what stemmed you into needing therapy?

Okay.

When I was 21, I ended up going on a mission for the church.

Was this Japan.

Yep.

Okay.

And it was in Japan, and I was having, like, a really, really hard time emotionally, I guess you could say.

And the.

So when you're over, like, on a mission, there's this one person who's in charge of all of the young missionaries, and he was the mission president.

And I was meeting with him once, and he's like, I really just would like you to meet with the mission doctor.

And he was a psychiatrist.

No.

Huh?

Psychiatrist.

I always say I'm wrong.

Thanks, Melissa.

Yeah, he was a psychiatrist.

And I was just like, I don't.

I don't believe in therapy.

Like, we grew up.

My.

My dad was like, we.

Okay, this is not good.

But we found out my grandpa was on Prozac, and we all made fun of him.

Oh, I know.

Because it's like, it's mind over matter.

And there's.

Oh, boohoo, you.

Why are you so upset?

It like, your life's not that hard anyway.

So I just was kind of like, no, I'm not going to go see the doctor.

And he's like, well, I wish you would, because you have, like, one.

The only thing I remember him saying is, you take everything on as if everything's your fault, Things that you can't control.

It's like, I just need you to go talk to this guy.

So I went in there, and I remember sitting down, the first thing I said is, I don't want to be here.

I'm only here because President Grange told me to come.

Yeah.

And he was like, oh, well, I'm really glad that you decided to listen to him, that you have so much respect for him.

He was very nice to me, but he basically just started asking me a bunch of questions about myself and how I grew up.

And I remember just sitting with him for probably a couple hours and then just bawling at the End.

And I remember him saying, let's turn.

Let's put you on some.

On some medicine for your anxiety and depression.

He.

I remember him saying, you've probably been dealing and struggling with this stuff since you were in your early teens.

Yeah.

It was just.

It was very.

It was very weird for me.

I was.

I was humiliated because I felt like there was something wrong with me.

I remember they had to call my parents and tell them that I was going on medication because it's just.

It's just a lot of rules and stuff.

And so they told my parents.

I remember, like, begging them not to call them.

Yeah.

As a adult, that's.

That is embarrassing.

You should.

Yeah.

Now that I think about it.

Yeah.

Sketchy.

Now that I.

And the HIPAA.

Right.

This breaks HIPAA.

Right one.

I mean, you were 21 or 22, like, sketchy.

Okay, you're right.

But at the time, I mean, it was Japan, but still, wasn't there hipaa?

I don't know.

There might now be.

It might have been after that hipaa.

It's funny because, like, the first time I've ever even thought that that wasn't okay.

I guess I just was like, no.

Like, you're the church.

They own you while you're on a mission.

They don't.

But I don't know.

I guess I just felt like.

Yeah.

I mean, like, psychologically, like.

Yeah.

Some people have good experiences on admissions.

A lot of people have bad missions.

Yeah.

And I'll say I did have a good experience.

Like, honestly, if it weren't for President Graham's, I wouldn't probably be where I am today.

And so, again, this is Pre Melissa Walker being licensed.

Pre Melissa Walker being licensed.

She wrote me letters in Japan.

I should go try to find some.

That's fun.

I don't.

I mean, I.

I know we did, but, like, I don't remember.

Like, I'm sure they lost.

I have this picture of Ivy that I took with me, because one of the things that you would do is we were encouraged to, like, make something, like a little photo album.

I think it was called a jiko shokai.

It's like an introduction book, and it's, like, of friends and family and people from America to kind of, like, just start talking to people because people would want to know where we came from.

And I had a picture of Ivy, and she was a baby, and she was in the leaves, and her.

Her, like, little porcelain.

Oh, I know that picture.

We have that picture in the photo album.

And her eyes are, like, so blue.

So Blue.

She's like.

It's like a pile of autumn leaves.

That she's lying in.

I have one like that with Logan.

It's beautiful.

But anyway, I remember.

Yeah, people loved that picture too.

But anyway.

All right, what did you want to.

Share with us today?

So mental health awareness.

Let's.

She's going to get off track.

I guess.

We got off track.

Yes, we did.

We're 30 minutes in and we have not talked about why we're here.

As you guys heard me talk about how I had a lot of trauma and then it turned into these really embarrassing seizures.

But I think what we have learned together is that everyone has that breaking point moment, whether they want to admit it or not, or they hit their like low lowest and they realize they need help.

Yeah.

And I shared what brought me into that.

And I think you were wanting to share kind of what brought you into that.

Yeah.

So that was the beginning of it was being.

Was seeing the doctor in Japan.

So coming back to the States after that actually was really hard because I didn't have culture shock going over there, but I did coming home.

I don't know how to explain it, but I guess just because every second of your life is planned out for you on a mission, you have to get up at 6 o' clock in the morning.

You have to like, literally every second of the day is planned out until 9 o' clock at night when you go to bed.

So then going, coming home and just kind of finding my own self, having to like.

I don't know, it's just, it's scary and it's hard.

I was about five years.

I would, I don't know, in 2008, I would say is when I kind of had a breakdown.

I remember talking to you on the phone.

You were living in your parents house after your mission.

Yeah.

And like we're chatting and like back in the day I was definitely a phone talker and I'm like trying to chat and like catch up.

And your parents were like, get off the phone, missy.

Get off the phone.

Get off the phone.

I was like.

And I was like, why?

Like why aren't you allowed to talk on the phone?

And you're like, I have to go.

My parents don't like it when I'm on the phone.

And I don't know if you realize like how.

Controlled.

Yeah, yeah, I.

I was like that word.

But it was like even talking on the phone to somebody outside, like it really bugged them.

And you were like, I'm like, you are a grown Ass.

Adult.

Talking to your friend, like, why aren't you allowed?

And if you weren't bothering, like, it was loud.

It's not like they were watching tv.

It's not like they needed to make a phone call.

It's not like you were tying up the line.

It was just like, very.

And I didn't understand it at the time because this was all pre.

Going to grad school.

But now I look back at that, I'm like.

Like, at the time, I was like, oh.

And like, looking back, I'm like, yeah, that speaks volumes.

Yeah.

No, that would give you, like, that feeling of being an inconvenience.

I feel like setting that into you.

Yeah, for sure.

Wow.

Interesting.

Because.

Yeah, you're right.

Even to this day, I don't really think.

I hadn't really thought of it that much.

It's.

But you're right.

It was just a lot of.

I guess control is the best word.

I don't know.

But yeah.

So then I remember I ended up moving out and a lot of things transpired.

Like, I was working at a dental lab.

I don't remember what exactly set me off, but I wasn't having.

I wasn't getting like, actual therapy.

I was just, I guess you could say medicated, because I still stayed medicated after I got off the mission.

Okay.

But then I remember things transpired.

I remember walking out on my job, and then I remember dating somebody that made me feel used, I guess you could say.

And I don't know, I'm trying to think what else was going on in my life at that time that would have, like, spiraled me, but basically I just spiraled.

And I didn't want to be alive anymore.

And so I did try to unalive myself, and I ended up in the hospital drinking charcoal and getting.

Make it.

Have them making me throw up.

And then because I lived in South Carolina, they have laws there where they have.

You have to be admitted.

I think that's everywhere.

Is that everywhere?

No, no.

Yeah.

I know I've had.

I've talked to so many people who have been hospitalized for attempts, who did not receive mental health treatment.

And I.

I think that almost always, if you've made an attempt, you probably need admitted intensive outpatient or something.

But like, yeah, you're in Texas and different states have different laws.

So sometimes, like, you can, like, if you voluntarily go and you sign yourself in.

Cool.

But if you don't voluntarily sign yourself in, in some states you have to go.

And some states, if it's not voluntary, that means Handcuffs.

I don't, I don't.

All the states are different and even it can be different from county to county in some states.

So then what was your experience?

Okay, so.

Okay.

I'm actually glad you're talking because it gave me a second to kind of think.

Yeah.

So I ended up being hospitalized that night.

I went off in the ambulance and because of the rules and the laws, state laws, I had to stay in the hospital until for I was about a week actually because there was nothing open in any in the Lakes state run institution.

Like, like they didn't have space.

They didn't have space and so I had to stay in the hospital for about a week.

I remember friends coming to visit me while I was there and like.

Oh.

And I also remember, just a side note, I remember one of the biggest things that actually did kind of set me off.

I really had like this a lot of self loathing and part of, I just remembered part of it was because of that guy I was dating and I felt like I was being used.

And at the same time though I did have premarital sex and I was discommuni or what's it called?

Disfellowship from the church.

And so that like made me feel like I was a really, really awful person because growing up that was my identity.

Yeah.

One thing, I don't know if it was, I don't, I don't know like if it was that person or if it was a.

There was something that happened during that time though that like you really put on yourself.

And we were talking about it like years later I think when you were living with us before I was a therapist and I was like that thing that happened wasn't your fault.

And you're like no, it was because of da da da da.

And I'm like no, no, like that wasn't your fault.

And you're like no, it was my fault.

And like I like kind of argued with you and unfortunately I've had that argument people since.

What thing was it?

Remind me.

Non consensual.

Oh, so okay, yes.

That actually happened even longer ago.

That was something that happened when I was younger before I met you.

That was one of the things that I do remember you teaching me like that used the R word.

You said that was rape.

And this is back in now we're kind of going back to when I met you in 2019.

I remember you saying that to me and I was like, no, as in.

19, like in 20.

You mean in 1999.

That know our year 1999 when I was 19.

Yeah.

That's a lot of nines.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Having that conversation, like, in my bedroom in Little Elm, Texas, we might have.

Had it again then.

Maybe I never really did believe you because she did try to get me to, like, see, like, that's.

That was not your fault, and I didn't believe it.

So I think I probably was carrying that around with me.

I never got therapy over that.

I never did.

So, like.

Yeah.

So then in 2008, whenever I had my breakdown, of course that's going to be one of the things.

Just one of the many baggage pieces that kind of like, broke the camel's back, I guess you could say.

So you're in the hospital.

In the hospital for a week.

This is the part that I had forgotten.

Melissa Walker reminded me they made so to be transported from the hospital to the mental hospital.

I did forget this.

They had a police officer escort me, and I had to be handcuffed in the back of a police car.

And it doesn't make any sense.

It's horrible.

That's traumatizing.

It was traumatizing.

And then my parents were there at the hospital to meet me, and I remember, like, getting out of the car and walking into the hospital like that, and it was so embarrassing and humiliating.

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

And it's weird because it's like, obviously I didn't do anything, so why would I be so embarrassed?

But it's just.

I don't know why.

Why was I so embarrassed?

Because wearing cuffs are shameful.

Plus, your family culture of, like, mental illness is shameful.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's true.

So that was a lot.

I ended up being there for three or four weeks, and I think that's a.

That's not bad.

It's not too bad, I guess.

But you're really.

When you first get in there, they're saying, like, okay, it could be anywhere from, like, oh, it could be just a week.

And we were hoping it was just going to be a week.

For context, insurance usually pays for seven to 10 days.

So I didn't even realize insurance would pay for it.

Well, so I don't know what the deal was.

I didn't have insurance.

And since it was a state hospital, state house, at least in Texas, things might be different in South Carolina.

In Texas, though, almost nobody goes to the state hospital, especially if you have insurance.

But.

But just for context, what insurance and of course, what insurance thinks is right and what's actually right are not always aligned.

Almost ever.

But, like, the kind of normal expectation is seven to 10 days.

So I would say three or four weeks is.

To me, that says this was a real severe thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

To get out, you had to go in front of a judge.

And I remember.

So, okay.

My parents would come and visit.

There was a few things, too, that happened during that time.

Like, I had a roommate who.

Oh, yeah.

There was so much that put me there, I forgot I had a dog who had been put down without me knowing while I was out of town.

Oh, my gosh.

So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that happened, and it just all kind of, like, culminated.

But anyway, while I was there, I do remember that my parents would come visit me.

And I remember this one particular time, and the whole time I was.

They were there, and they were just yelling at me about how I clearly didn't understand the atonement of Christ because if I did, I wouldn't have hated myself or wanted to, you know, disappear from the world because I would have been able to give all of my problems over to Christ.

Right.

And I'm just like, that's not at all, like.

I don't know.

But then it would, like, put that burden on you and make you panic of like, oh, you're right.

Like, there is something wrong with me.

And then would that, like, transpire into, like.

Well, interestingly, I want to say I didn't feel like they were right.

I guess I kind of, like, fought back against it, and that's why we kind of were, like, fighting and.

But at the same time, even.

Even in denial, I guess maybe there's a part of me that's like, oh, what is wrong?

I don't know.

What.

Do you remember any of that, Melissa?

I wasn't.

We talked about it later, and I just remember, like, when you were telling me later that, like, they kept saying, okay, well, you're probably about ready to leave, like, in the next few days, and then your parents would come visit you, and then you'd, like, take a nosedive your wellness.

And the doctor was like, yeah, no, we got to keep you longer.

And I didn't the doctor eventually say, like, don't let her family come anymore or something like that?

That's exactly right.

I forgot about that.

So they.

I.

So it was actually like, a team of doctors that you're talking to, like, a social worker and a doctor and a nurse practitioner.

I don't know.

And they would, like, get together and have, like, little pout.

Oh, I think that's not PC to say anymore, which it probably never was.

But they would have meetings about you and then decide where and what you should do next.

And I remember after one of the meetings, one of the doctors came back to me and said, you know, we've been talking about it, and every time they come in, you decline.

It's okay if you tell them that you don't want them to visit you, and it's okay for you to, like, not have them in your life as much as they have been in the past.

And I.

That was hard for me because.

But it was a person of authority, I guess, telling me.

And so I felt like, okay, yeah, I guess I can do it.

I remember that they even had said, if you don't, they don't have to be there when you go in front of the judge.

Like, you don't have to have them there.

And that was a really big decision for me to make, too, because they're.

Already expecting you, and now you're saying, don't show up.

Yeah, exactly.

And so, yeah, they didn't show up.

And.

Yeah.

And I was able to kind of.

Like, get myself together, go back home after this.

No.

And I didn't have a place to go back to because my roommate ended up getting out of our apartment lease and moving in with her boyfriend or maybe getting married.

I can't remember what happened, but she got rid of our apartment lease.

And so what did you do?

I stayed with some friends.

And you came to live with us.

I came to live with the Walkers.

Oh.

Yeah.

So Thomas, me let me stay with them for, I would say, about a week.

And you were trying to talk me into coming out.

We were like.

She was so worried about being a burden.

And I remember saying to you, like, I was like.

I was totally being sincere, but I was, like, trying to convince you.

I'm like, it would be a huge help to us because my husband had lost his job at Pfizer.

We were, like, trying to do this startup business.

I was trying to, like, work, but the kids were little.

And, like, there's no way that, like, without any work experience, I could make enough money to pay for daycare for two little kids.

Like, it just went.

So we were like, honestly, like, having somebody to help with the kids, help with the business would be the biggest help in the world to us.

You would be doing us a favor.

And while you're getting back on your feet.

And, I mean, it was true.

And also, we were very happy to be, like.

Like, we knew that we could, like, be a safe place.

Yeah.

Honestly, it was very safe.

I feel like I learned so much at that time, and I know I wasn't easy to live with.

There was times when, like, I would just disappear into the room, and I.

Don'T think you were easy to live with, and I very.

Yeah, because you were, like, overly accommodating.

But there were probably, like, a couple.

Like, the couple of times that we had, like, a couple of, like, disagreements.

I definitely feel like I was the bitch on both of those.

I.

I only.

I.

I don't even remember.

I only remember one thing, and that was.

Cause you reminded me of it.

But anyway.

So you got back on your feet.

Yeah, by living with them, but.

But I was able to, like, watch them with Ethan and Ivy and just kind of see, like, one of the biggest things that.

Something healthy there.

See something healthy.

One of the biggest things, and it seems so small that I learned was people are more important than things.

And I remember, like, that blew my mind.

Like, you could break a dish, and you were still more important than getting mad about the dish being broken or, like, you could probably wreck a car.

And it was still.

That is so funny.

I think I had to learn that, like, later in life, too.

Like, if we got, like, a drop of spaghetti sauce, like, on the carpet, it was like, oh, my gosh, am I about to die now?

And, like, getting to the point of, like, I think I was hard on the kids for a while.

Of like, you just got a spot on the carpet.

Now I have to clean it.

And now I'm like, it's okay.

It's like, let's just drop the spaghetti on the floor.

Like, it's okay.

We're gonna fix it.

Exactly.

And the other thing I remember about that time, I really, really wanted a dog.

And Melissa Walker.

Melissa was like, well, get a dog.

And I was like, what?

But in your house.

Because I wouldn't want it to be outside.

We didn't have any pest.

Yeah, it wasn't like that.

Like, we were, like.

Not like, the kids were little.

I don't think we even had the bunnies.

Like, we didn't.

No, you didn't.

We had no pets at that time.

So, you know, going from, like, no pets to a dog, it's a bit of a transition.

But the kids enter Waverly.

It was Waverly.

Yeah.

And the kids, like, all of us, love Waverly.

But, like, the kids were, like, so, so excited.

Yeah.

They were so sweet with her.

Oh.

One very important thing that we forgot to say is you had one rule when I came to live with you.

Do you remember it?

I Think it was.

You're not allowed to try to kill yourself because it would traumatize my kids.

Pretty much.

Two rules.

Okay.

Get therapy.

Okay.

Yeah, I.

Because I.

My only concern, and it was a real concern was, like, my kids are going to be attached to you.

Yep.

And if, like, you attempt again, they're going to know about it and it's going to affect them.

And so, like, the, like, I have to protect my kids from being traumatized by that.

Yeah.

So that's really fair.

How is that.

How did that feel for you, Melissa Walker, to have to say that to your friend?

Like, hey, there's a rule in my house.

You can't attempt to kill yourself.

Because, like, I feel like that's awkward.

I just.

I just felt like I'm very happy thing.

But, like, my kids.

My first responsibility is to my kids.

And, like, that.

That I'm not like.

And I understand that.

Yeah.

No, I just.

I love that you were, like, brave enough to just, like, you know, protect your kids first.

Because I feel like if I was in this situation, I would just, in my head, be like, okay, this is gonna be really traumatizing if this happens.

Let's just hope it doesn't happen.

And, like, instead of, like, getting in front of it and just being like, to be clear.

That's another thing I learned from Melissa Walker, and it's been a huge boon on my mental health journey is communication.

One of the things I remember you always kind of saying is, like, you can't be mad about something that you never voiced was bothering you.

Right.

And I remember, like, yes, you can be, I guess.

But I remember you being very, like, hey, we talk about things in this family.

Well, you can, like, your feelings are always valid, but, like, if.

If I don't know something, like, like, you gotta tell me.

And then if I don't do it, then you can be mad, but, like.

Yeah, you can't fix what you don't know.

Yeah, exactly.

So.

So she's always been really good about that.

And I would say, yeah.

So being able to get there.

So immediately I had to go.

I went and found a therapist.

Not really.

And did this feel, like, more comfortable to you than the first time you saw the therapist, or.

Yeah, so the first time it was like, we had that one big, long talk, and then it was medication, and that's pretty much all it was.

I don't.

I hadn't accidentally had, like, the real.

The first time I had, like, real therapy was in the hospital.

Okay.

Okay.

And then.

And there was a Lot of CBT in there.

Cognitive behavioral therapy, which actually was.

It worked for me at the time.

It was very.

Here's the flaws in your thinking.

And I'm like, I'm not flawed.

And then I'm like, oh yeah, that is flawed.

Fine.

But yeah.

So I forgot where I was going.

We had you immediately found a therapist.

Okay.

So what I ended up having to do is I didn't have insurance, I didn't have any money.

So I went over and found like.

I think you might have googled it for me, Melissa.

Like there was some state.

Did you go to.

I think you went to Mhmr.

Yes, actually.

I bet you're right.

I did.

What does that stand for?

So.

So this is funny.

It.

It used to stand for like back in the day it stood for mental health, mental retardation.

But since I think anymore they like changed all of their stuff that it's just Mhmr.

But it's.

It's the state mental health.

Well, it's the.

If I'm ever.

If I ever win a billion trillion dollars, I'm gonna redo Texas's state mental health.

But yeah, it's underfunded, but it's.

It's the like state paid for Medicaid paid for.

For mental health.

I remember going and sitting in this lobby and it was almost like the dmv.

You're just sitting there with like tons a number.

It's super.

Yeah, it's, it's.

It's.

And it's like where all the people who don't have money and have severe mental illness go.

So like, it doesn't.

It's a really good program.

But like it's.

It's trying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember going.

I.

Every time I went, I would meet with a different therapist and every time I went it was like, you have to tell your whole life story again.

Absolutely not.

It was not amazing.

I'll be honest.

But it did keep me on medication.

Which medication?

I'm just gonna say thank goodness that we have it because it's an.

Even if it's not the end all be all and it's not a true fix.

It's enough to help you like makes calm down enough to.

To work on yourself.

I.

I would say.

Yeah, that's how I feel about it too.

Yeah.

I remember that first day I went.

Somebody actually, they just kind of like.

I just remember going through and meeting with different.

Now you're gonna go down the hall and talk to this person and then this person.

And in the end, somehow, somewhere, someone There signed me up for disability.

Oh, really?

Yeah, because I couldn't work.

Like, I just.

I was living with my friends, you know, and so I remember being really ashamed about that too.

But they kept saying, no, this is what it's for.

This is what it's for.

It's for people to get back on their feet.

And, like, so I was on disability for a while and getting help and slowly trying to grow and become more healthy and.

But I would say it was a long road because then in that time, I would say I.

I met my.

And married my ex husband who had his own issues.

Did you meet him, like, where you guys were living together or In Texas?

Yeah, so I met him through a friend that we went to church with.

It was her brother.

Oh, okay.

So you and Melissa Walker were still Mormon?

Yes.

Mm.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

And so then this guy was from Brazil, and then he.

He was.

He was nice.

And even to this day, I.

Maybe I'm, like, seeing things not clearly.

Still, but have tons of red flags.

Like, I have, like, a couple of, like, pink flags about him, but I didn't have, like, a ton of huge red flags about him.

Yeah, same.

Okay, that's a.

That's a fair sign.

Yeah.

But the truth is, he.

He.

He was bipolar.

He had a really, like, how.

What's the word?

Like, tumultuous past and background, and he was dealing with his own things, and I just don't think that you want to be in a relationship with anyone until your own shit is figured out.

Yeah.

And I still hold that to this day.

And I don't think my own shit is even still figured out, actually.

Well, no one.

Well, she can't have it figured out because nobody, like, is ever like, oh, my.

Is fully figured out.

Like, that's not.

Yeah, right, Right.

But if he's that severe in his own mental health and you're still trying to work out your own severe mental health, I.

That's not space for either of you.

Okay, that's a very good point.

To improve.

That's a very good point.

A battling of.

Let me suppress mine because you need me.

No, I'm going to suppress mine because you need me.

And then build up, build up, build up, crash.

I don't know.

That's just my.

That is.

No, that was like, a perfect assessment of that relationship.

Sound like.

I agree.

That is exactly where that went.

Yes.

I was just speaking from my own experiences that.

That's what it felt like.

It felt like, like, you're not stable.

I'm not Stable.

But I have to pretend to be stable because you're not.

And.

Yeah, that.

No, that was exactly.

Call me therapist.

We will soon.

RTT or whatever.

Okay.

So then we had, like, an issue where.

So this is where things.

This is the part.

This is the meat that Sam wants.

Me to get to.

This is what leads to the part that you technically wanted to talk about.

I didn't know about what we just talked about.

I did not know about that.

You and Melissa Walker.

Yeah.

So basically, Vincent and I found out that we were pregnant because I was in a car accident.

And they were like.

That's how you found out?

Yeah, they were like, by the way, you want the good news or the bad news?

And they're like, your P test came back and you're pregnant.

And I was like, yeah.

I was like, no, no.

And.

And I was.

But.

Was it shortly was nothing.

We lost the baby.

And that was sad.

Yeah.

It was just a baby.

And so then from.

I didn't realize that there were.

Yeah.

So from there, we kind of were like, oh, wow.

This wasn't really on our radar.

Like, I guess we kind of, like, knew we weren't trying not to have children, but I don't know.

It was kind of like, well, now let's have a baby.

I don't know.

Yeah.

And so then I'm trying to remember how.

Because the second one was actually kind of a surprise, too.

And I don't remember how we found that out.

Is this.

So you guys decided.

So this unfortunate, like, learning of, oh, there's a baby and then miscarriage, did this stem, like, let's get married and start trying to have a kid who already married.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't like, the little bit of time like most things.

And Vincent stayed with us in your old room for, like, a little bit of time until they got married, like, when he got to America.

Oh, so you guys were still trying to do, like, the Mormon way of, like, we know we want to be together, but let's.

We can't live together.

And.

Okay.

Actually.

Yeah.

But then we didn't do a very good job at it.

And he came and he stayed at the apartment with me.

And then.

Shameful.

Then the bishop.

No, it is.

And then the bishop, when we went and spoke to him because we wanted him to marry us, was like, well, we.

He goes, you guys need.

And he was really nice.

And so it's, like, hard for me to like, yeah, because this is kind of messed up.

But he basically said, you guys are Living in sin.

You need to move your wedding up and get married, like, pronto.

Because we wanted to get married, like, in a few months before his visa ran out.

Right.

But we still didn't want to get married, like, right then.

But he's like, you guys need to get married now or I'm gonna have to excommunicate you both.

And so I was like, okay.

So we ended up getting married really fast, which was not a deal.

And I.

I do think that if I hadn't got married right away.

An awesome, fast, almost free wedding, though.

It was gorgeous.

She bought my wedding dress.

Yeah.

And, like, she got the most beautiful dress.

And it was like.

Like.

I don't know why it was a second, but it was, like, so cheap.

It was gorgeous.

And, like, everything was good.

Like, it.

We did the most awesome fast, almost.

That's true.

That's true.

Oh, I believe it.

But I.

I don't feel I.

In my brain.

If you knew that you were going to get married anyways in a couple of months to.

For his visa, and then they're like, no, get married right now.

I mean, would that really have changed a whole lot of what?

I do think so.

We would have had.

Because we were already having some, like, kind of big fights.

Okay.

And I really think that.

I think it kind of might have come down to it and been like, I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Who knows, right?

Happens for a reason, I guess.

I don't know.

What do you think about that one, Melissa?

I hadn't thought of it before, but I do remember you had a big fight the morning of your wedding, and you're like, well, crap, like, are we getting married today or what?

And, like, forgot about that.

No, but you were like, I don't, like, are we getting married?

We just.

He just.

I don't remember what you guys said to each other, but it was mean and nasty.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Anyway, so, yes, we found out we were pregnant, and then we kind of got excited, like, oh, maybe we could have a baby.

And I wouldn't say we, like, started trying.

Trying, but again.

But it happened again.

Trying to not.

Yeah, exactly.

But then it was like, a little more like, oh, I'm kind of excited if this could happen again.

And then we did get pregnant again, and this time it was a set of twins.

How far after the first one?

Not within the same year, maybe, I would say.

But yeah, so this time it was twins.

And I remember going to this, and I.

I was on Medicare Because I had disability.

I was on disability.

So I.

You know, and I remember no doctors wanted to accept the Medicare.

And so I just found, like, this one doctor that finally would see me.

And I went and saw her, and she was like, oh, yeah, here's your babies.

And then.

Then I went back again.

And then the second time, she couldn't find their heartbeat.

And then she said, oh, well, just come back next week and we'll try again.

And I was so naive.

I just thought, okay, they're hiding.

Yeah, they're small.

They're hiding under an organ or something.

And so I went back the next week, and she still didn't find them.

And she had me go back every week for five weeks.

Wow.

You don't know that.

You don't remember this.

And this sounds really incompetent.

Oh, it gets worse.

It gets better.

Oh, I can't believe you don't remember this.

Well, I'm learning, too.

Keep going.

Okay.

So she had me go back every week.

Why didn't you do a blood test?

Because your hormone levels would have showed it, right?

Yeah.

So then I end up in the emergency room for a dnc, and the.

Doctors there were like, you had a.

Complication, had to go to the hospital.

And then they were like, oh, this is.

Yeah, I think somebody said, I don't remember if I had a complication or if somebody was like, you need to get out of the hospital.

This isn't okay.

And it might have been you.

But I ended up going in and.

Because somebody's saying, like, you could get really sick if you leave those babies in there.

And so I went to the emergency room.

The doctor there said, who is your doctor?

And I told them.

And then they came back an hour later and were like.

Because it was just all day, lots of waiting in a room.

And they came back and were like, she does.

The reason she kept having you come back every week is because she wanted you to pass the naturally.

She hasn't.

Her license has been revoked.

Yeah.

She couldn't do your DNC in a hospital, so.

Oh, you don't remember?

This.

Is walking.

Look at that face.

I'm in shock.

Yeah.

And so I was just.

So they were pretty upset.

I don't know what happened to her after that, but I do remember people being like, you should sue.

You should go, and something.

And.

And I thought.

And I kind of, to this day, regret that I didn't, but I just didn't want to deal with it.

It was just so much.

And so.

But I.

Only thing that I regret is the fact that she could still keep doing that to other people.

And I.

Yeah.

Wait, can she.

Her license is already revoked.

And how is she even practice.

I.

I don't know.

Medicare without an active license.

This is all.

I don't know.

I don't know.

They said.

Well, okay, so they said her license to.

To do surgeries in the hospital was revoked.

So I.

Maybe there's different ones.

Privileges.

Maybe it's hospital privileges.

Oh, okay, then that's what it was.

And so.

And I never found out why or anything like that, but they were just like, don't just stay away from her.

Yeah.

So I carried my twins till.

Yeah.

How far along were you?

Not super far.

It was 13 weeks.

Yeah, but five weeks of.

It was just.

It was.

It was awful.

That.

That would be traumatizing to.

To realize you've been carrying, like, deceased fetuses.

Well, like in the.

Yeah, it was awful.

I actually have.

I'm trying to decide if I should read this or not, because I feel like.

Oh, I might let you read it.

You want me to read it out loud?

Yeah.

So I found a Facebook post that I wrote back then.

Oh.

And I Actually, I didn't read it just now.

I haven't read it or heard it for a long time, but I just found it.

I'll let you read it.

You guys want to hear?

Okay, so I'm ready to share.

It's been a really difficult six months, two miscarriages.

The last one was a beautiful set of twins.

I first wanted to say how grateful I am for the friends and family I have who support and love me through everything.

And when I ask for space, I also would like to explain that miscarriages are a very painful loss to experience.

The most difficult part was not that I had to carry them for weeks after they had passed, though.

That was heartbreaking for me.

The most difficult part was going into the hospital and coming out without my babies in my arms.

My first words out of anesthesia were, where are my babies?

I want to see my babies.

The nurses were very kind, but told me that they had already been sent to pathology for testing.

It's like having your heart ripped out of you, yet not being able to see it, to know it ever existed.

You have nothing tangible to put your love in.

Say goodbye to.

You feel crazy and lost, full of emotions and empty at the same time.

All I have is a blurry sonogram picture to remind me that my babies were real.

They were growing, their hearts were strong.

And my grief is not for Nothing.

I share this not for pity, but to hopefully raise a bit of awareness to the fact that the grief is real.

Oh, I forgot about all that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how it felt.

Yeah.

You feel kind of crazy.

Like, there's, like.

People don't talk about miscarriages, really.

I don't know why either.

Because it's real grief.

Yeah.

I don't.

I don't know.

The word for it is ambiguous loss.

And there are a lot of things in our society that fall under ambiguous loss.

And it's.

It's like, so, like, when somebody dies, people kind of expect you to have a grieving process, but if it's not something that is, like, a universally shared thing, then it kind of gets, like, nobody wants to hear about it.

It's kind of taboo.

And so.

And you don't really know how to grieve it because, like you said in that Facebook post, like, there's no tangible evidence.

Like, not everybody can relate to it.

And so you go through the same grieving process, but you don't have the support, family and friends, or the understanding of people.

And, I mean, that happens with miscarriages a lot.

It can happen with even abortions.

It can happen with divorces.

It can happen with, like, loss of dreams or, like, if you lose a limb or become disabled.

Like, all of those things are kind of ambiguous loss things, and they.

They are very real, but people don't really have words for them, and society doesn't really recognize them.

Yeah.

So it kind of gets swept of like, you'll be fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Actually, I remember waking up in the hospital because I had told them beforehand that I wanted to see them.

I know that sounds morbid.

No, I actually reading that, like, that's.

I got, like.

I paused because I was like, we already sent them to pathology.

Like, like, if you're taking them out, why could you not have at least touched them?

I don't know.

Right.

Like, I think maybe they need to normalize something like that.

Maybe just because it's not.

Maybe because they wouldn't have looked like fully formed babies yet.

I don't know.

But I do remember saying beforehand that I wanted to see them.

And apparently I.

I just remember waking up screaming, and the nurses were like.

I just remember hearing nurses, like, around me saying, I don't know what to do.

I've never.

This has never happened before.

And I guess I was like, in the, like, recovery space, coming out of anesthesiology, and, like, there's other people there trying to come out and I was like screaming and crying.

Okay.

But I will say, I don't know if that just wasn't like acknowledged back then, but like, women coming out of anesthesia, they.

You come out either fighting, screaming, fighting, like swinging, or you come out weeping, crying.

Oh, I just.

I didn't know.

I've only.

I've.

That's the only time I've ever come out doing anything.

Usually I just wake up.

Yeah, I'm a weeper up.

And then I feel like embarrassing.

I'm like, I don't know why I'm crying.

Like, no, you either wake up fighting or you wake up crying like you're fine.

And I'm like, okay.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

So I woke up screaming and fighting and yelling and they were like, I don't know what to do.

And then I was like, I just want to see my babies.

They're like, they don't.

They're not here.

They're not here.

And then I was crying and it was a whole thing, a realization.

So.

Yeah, trauma.

Yeah.

And so from there I just had like a really hard time getting out of that slump.

And I want to say that the fall.

So then it was the following Mother's Day, and it's gonna sound so crazy, but I started cutting.

I remember you mentioning that.

And another episode.

The only thing I can explain.

Well, I had promised Melissa, and I remember this.

I was like, I.

Cause I wanted to.

I wanted to try and attempt suicide again.

And you were.

I thought you and Vincent were living in your own space or so.

Yes, we were, but he actually wasn't.

This is a whole nother thing too.

So he actually got a job as a truck driver.

And he left and didn't come home for nine months with no communication.

He would call me every maybe once a week.

It was bad.

But while he was gone, in the beginning, ish.

Was that Mother's Day.

And I just remember wanting to not be alive anymore again.

But I remember, like, I promise I would never do that to Ethan and Ivy.

And so I.

I wouldn't do it.

But then I started cutting and it was this.

This crazy thing.

Like, I guess I just felt like I wanted to shed blood that I couldn't have shed, that I did, that I might have shed during childbirth.

It sounds crazy.

No, it doesn't.

That's like.

No, that's.

That's.

Do you want me to like, go in?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm very interested.

So every self destructive behavior, so to speak, has a purpose.

Like, it's.

It's trying to communicate Something.

And so.

And cutting is, like, almost always has a symbolic value.

Like, I don't want to say a hundred percent of the time, but like.

Like, very, very frequently cutting has a symbolic value for somebody.

So sometimes people are like, well, I need to be punished, and so I'm punishing myself.

Or sometimes people are like, like, you're saying real pain.

This is pain.

Like cut pain, the other thing that cutting does.

And no, nobody knows this on a conscious level, but they kind of intuit it is.

We feel emotional pain and physical pain in the same part of our brain, but the physical pain actually feels less bad than the emotional pain.

And so we can convert it from emotional pain into physical pain.

Then our body releases the endogenous opioids.

We feel a lot better.

Plus, we've communicated to ourselves like, we've, like, shed that.

Like you said, like, shed that blood.

And so it makes actually a million percent sense.

Wow.

Thanks for saying or explaining that.

Yeah.

That.

Yeah.

Never judge anybody for cutting or for their reasons for cutting because it actually always makes sense.

Yeah, it was traumatizing for, I guess.

Well, I know it was traumatizing for you at the time because I remember I was at the point where I was like, wait, I'm bleeding way more than I meant to.

Oh, no.

So it turned into, like, an accidental, like, attempt kind of.

No, it wasn't even that much, but it was, like, still a lot of blood.

And I ended up calling Scott because I was afraid to call, not afraid to call you.

I didn't want you to have to come see it.

And so I called Scott.

But then you came over anyway because of course you would.

Right.

And I was gonna sit home and.

Be like, it's fine.

You just get home, like, sipping my hat cocoa.

Okay, I have to say something crazy.

Okay.

I didn't see it exactly, like, in my brain as, like, what you're explaining, but I had a dream that you are injured and you're, like, sitting in this small space and you call Scott and Melissa and like, I.

I actually literally have seen this in my brain.

Really?

Not like that you were, like, bleeding, bleeding, but there was an emergency, you needed help, and they show up.

Because that's been there for me, for everything.

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense that you would.

That's so weird.

Yeah.

So from there, it was kind of like, okay, look, I'm clearly in a place again.

That's not amazing.

And.

But this time around, instead of being state mandated, it was like, I.

I know where I'm headed.

I can see what's happening now, and I'm not gonna let myself get to that space.

And so I admitted myself into a hospital.

I think that's awesome.

Well, thank you.

Because we know people right now that were just like, can you please just admit yourself?

Like, you need help?

This is not going well.

Unfortunately, that is a true statement.

But it's embarrassing.

And I feel like I.

I was like, do I want to tell people that I went into the hospital twice in my life?

No.

That you learned from the first time.

The first time you didn't know you needed help.

This time you're like, I need help.

Like, yeah, help me.

You're right.

And it was worth it.

Like.

And then.

So then I went in.

I don't remember how long I was there.

Not as long.

Maybe a couple weeks, five, seven days.

No, I don't.

I feel.

I don't feel.

Oh, not even like a week.

And I want to point out your parents had some growth, too, because they were in contact with me a lot, especially your dad.

Your dad called me, like, almost every day.

They were supportive and concerned.

Like, I just think it's worth noting the change here.

Well, just to interject, what I have realized from certain parents is that they put on a very good mask to other people outside.

So, like, do you think that was a mask of, let me show a good effort?

Like, I'm a good person.

I really care about her.

Like, so let me, like, show that to you.

There might have been some of that, but I think.

I mean, I think privately to you, they were still a lot more supportive, weren't they?

They were.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Yeah, that's true.

I remember.

So my dad, actually, over the years, I mean.

Because this is what.

What we're talking from.

So that would have been, like.

I think I was in grad school at that time.

Right.

Like, so it's only, like, 2013, 2014.

Yeah.

At this point.

Yeah, I bet.

Like, early 2014.

When was that Facebook post?

Yeah, 2015.

It was 2015.

Okay.

So I was out of school and, like, a baby practitioner.

Yep.

Yep.

So this is baby practice for you?

Yeah, I was just helping her out.

Okay.

Funny.

Not funny.

Yeah.

So it's.

Yeah, it's just one of those things.

It's like, wow.

But then.

But I know there's people who have met me that wouldn't have guessed that.

So I guess it's worth sharing and just saying, like, it's okay to be vulnerable.

It's okay to admit that you're in a bad place, you know, and we can't always get out of that place by ourselves.

Actually, I don't think we really can.

I think that we're meant to be.

We're a societal people.

As we've learned in other seasons.

Like, we are all a part of each other.

So it's like we have to all support each other.

Yeah.

I think so.

But like you mentioned on the first episode of this season, you are going through a tough time right now.

You are going through a divorce.

Yeah.

And I feel like that could have been a traumatizing stem of your past and that you could have spiraled out and just, you know, just had a.

Maybe another episode.

But I will.

Like, you have been.

So.

This is not me, like, on me.

Like, this is a you problem.

And, like, so obviously those experiences have taught you, like, what is personal, like, you.

And what is not a you problem where you've been, like, very.

This isn't a me problem.

This is.

You gotta figure out your.

I'm gonna figure out my.

So I'm gonna.

Like.

But no but, like, that's.

That's growth.

Right.

Like, knowing that I am better than this, this time around and you've been able to handle it with the support of your friends and you feel comfortable with that?

Yeah, I.

I would say.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I'm so.

I am seeing.

I am talking to a doctor every month.

As you should.

I do too.

I'm gonna start seeing a therapist again, but I'm not gonna do EMDR this time.

Only because I feel like last time I did it sometimes it can pull up a lot.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I wonder you would think about that, Melissa.

Well, I don't think you have to do emdr.

I do think you sh.

I think it would be good if you saw somebody who does train spotting.

Yeah.

Brain would be fine, but brain.

So all of those trauma modalities, whether it's brain spotting or somatic experiencing or a good internal family systems person or santre, like, they're all going to bring up your shit, but I don't really think that you're going to have good therapy if you don't want to bring up your shit.

That's true, too.

It doesn't have to be emdr, but I would say a trauma modality.

I can feel there's some fear behind that because.

Okay, so I know that I have a lot of shit, and I know what that's done to me in the past.

I don't want to do that again.

And so, like, do you feel fearful that, like, if you have to bring up shit again and, like, try and work it out for a third time, that it will lead to the severity.

No, I'll be honest.

The reason that I was.

That I even said that is because the.

The guy, the.

My nurse practitioner that I do see, he had said something like, you've kind of got a lot right now.

Uh, oh.

I said something to him about the EMDR being kind of taxing and exhausting for me last time I did it.

But I also.

It was also, like, really good for me.

Like Melissa said, you have to, like, dig up the.

And go through the hard stuff to be able to get better.

Like, you don't have.

So not every session is time to dig up the old stuff.

Okay, like that, like.

And if you have a therapist who's like, we have to EMDR every session and we have to do the old work and not focus on the right now, that's, I would say, not a great therapist, or at least I wouldn't want to see that.

They're interesting.

So, like, if you were my client, going through what you're going through right now, like, when you're in this moment of dealing with this stuff, you deal with this moment, this stuff, and then as you get a little farther away from it in the, you know, several months out, then it's like, okay, well, you know, now that we're getting a little bit more stable, are we ready to kind of connect some dots?

Are we not ready to.

I mean, I.

I never make anybody deal with any.

Like, even if I know that they have something to deal with.

So.

Yeah, like, even if.

Like, because they've told me in their, you know, history or whatever, you know, maybe every six months, I'll be like, so remember that thing that we haven't talked about yet?

Or do you want to talk about talking about it?

And if they say yes, great.

And if they don't say yes, then we don't.

Because, like, there are therapists who will thrap you.

Right?

Like, don't, don't, like, don't do what you don't like.

It's your therapy.

You take control of it.

If you're like, no, I am here to talk about my current divorce.

Maybe later we can deal with this, but right now, I'm here to talk about my current life transition.

Okay, cool.

Then.

I mean, when you're in a life transition, like, yeah, your life transition is not time to be connecting the dots to your parent issues that's going to.

Stack on to what you're currently dealing.

With like, okay, that actually can fit on your plate.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense to what maybe Dr.

Appling was trying to say.

So it's not don't go to an EMDR therapist.

It's don't do emdr.

Or if you're going to do emdr, like, you can do EMDR about your divorce.

Like, yeah, you can do recent, current, and even, like, I'm really scared about, like, this thing that's coming up, like the finalization, or I'm scared about whatever you can even do.

It's so.

But you.

You.

You can keep it focused on the.

Right now.

Okay.

I'm really glad you said that, because I think I did take it to.

Oh, I just don't need to be doing EMDR right now.

Whereas I bet you 100% that we.

What.

What you just said is more what he meant because he did kind of say, you know, it's.

Let's.

Let's not dig up other things.

Let's just focus on.

This is kind of what he had said.

So that doesn't.

Trauma specialists, considering your history, don't they know.

Yeah.

And a good trauma specialist is going to understand that balance.

I mean, I'm not going to say, like, why is that?

We've all been to mad there.

Right.

And I don't, you know.

Or I say therapists that were not a good fit for us at that time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That makes sense.

But, yeah, so that's kind of where I am.

So I would say third time's the charm.

And going through another.

Well, we know.

Going through.

No, we're saying three.

Three.

Three times the charm.

You're not going through, like, what you went through.

That's true.

That's true.

Because each time I've gotten.

But, like, what Walker said is there's the.

What did you call it?

It's an S word.

And grieving period.

I feel like this is a situation where you could end up in that situation.

Not an S word.

Ambiguous.

Ambiguous.

Not a C word.

Ambiguous loss.

Yeah.

Like, I could see that you maybe would start to go through a problem even though you're like, yeah, this isn't a me problem.

Like, I'm good.

No, thank you.

You.

I promise you're gonna agree, yeah, there's grief.

And I think that also isn't recognized because people are gonna be like, no, you should have been doing this.

Like, why are you.

That's so true.

Going through divorce can be tricky because.

It'S like, they weren't good.

That.

But well.

And also, like, if you're the one doing the leaving.

Some people are like, well, why are you sad?

You're the one that left.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But it is sad.

Like, I didn't get married so I could get divorced.

And I loved this person.

Yeah.

And I still love this person.

What is interesting is in our last episode that we recorded, you remembered and recalled and talked about a time where this husband and did something very, very sweet for you by writing you that entry.

And I was like, he did that.

And it, like, kind of just like, really reminds you, like, there's good.

They're not a bad person.

Yeah.

They're going through a bad time and it's just not.

Yeah.

Cohesive to exactly what is right now.

But, you know, it's okay to say you're not a bad person.

It's just, we are not working.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that would be sad.

Yeah.

To remember this was great at one point.

Yeah.

And what could be.

Or what.

Yeah.

What was so.

But anyway, that's my mental health journey up until now.

And I know it's going to be never ending.

Like, we're always trying to grow and be better.

Right.

So while you are not the first one on this podcast that has shared about trying to unlive themselves, so I think that, one, you're not alone.

Yeah.

Two, it is very vulnerable and brave to.

To share that.

Well, thank you.

Very deep.

And I know from personal experience that it's not easy to talk about hard stuff with your parents and, like, feeling, especially when they're alive, like, being able to be honest and be like, yeah, no, we.

We have some problems.

Yeah.

And of course, the vulnerability of just, like, how deep and, like, traumatic an experience is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm not even sure where to end it.

I feel like I brought us onto a downer.

But no, you guys are not alone.

So to me, this is like a normal conversation.

Like, that I have, like 10 times a week.

She is.

I am the trauma whore.

Do I need to do Trauma Horror Part three?

Is that what this is?

So I remember I was tired.

So we live in an equestrian community and I'm really good friends with my neighbor and we trail ride around our neighborhood a lot.

And I remember having this conversation with her.

I don't even know.

Like, to me it was just like a normal conversation and, like, I was totally talking about suicide and passive thoughts of death and, like, all these things that, to me are just like the most normal.

And I'm just like.

And she's like, that was a downer.

And I Was like, what?

Why?

She's like, suicide.

Really?

You don't think that's a downer?

I was like, actually I think it's really normal.

Like, doesn't everybody have a history of suicidality?

Like, she's like, no.

I was like, yes.

Okay.

Actually I'm really glad that you said that.

Yeah, no, that's really funny.

She's in denial.

Everybody in my world has a history of suicidality.

And so maybe I'll throw out some like, just like some history.

So please.

When I was a baby therapist, so before I.

When I was pre licensed.

So you've got to get two.

So in Texas it's 2,000 hours, a thousand hours of which has to be face to face.

And then a thousand hours can be like, you know, doing your notes or whatever you're doing and.

And as if.

Oh no, it was three.

Sorry.

It was 3000 hours.

1500 face to face.

1500 it is.

It took like three years because I wasn't working full time.

And 750 of those hours had to be couples and families because I was, I'm a family therapist.

Whereas LPCs don't have to have the couple family hours.

So to get more hours and to get more money.

I did crisis for mhmr, that same place that you went.

And so what MHMR does is if somebody is in crisis, crisis defined as suicidal, homicidal or psychotic, and if they don't have insurance then, or if they just like call the hotline, then we go.

I remember you having to do this.

Yeah, I mean, was a terrible experience because like I'd have to get up at three in the morning and go to the mental hospital and assess people like on call.

Yeah, I did, I did weekends on call and.

But I mean it paid good money and I got a lot of hours doing it.

And the most important thing is that the experience that I got from it, like I kind of think everybody should have to like every mental health professional should have to have some like, I feel like there should be a rotation where you have to do.

Because the experience that I got from it was so incredibly valuable.

And about 90, at least 90% of the people that we assessed were being assessed for suicidality.

And then a very small, I mean I think it was only two or three people the whole time.

I did it for a year and a half were homicidal.

And they were not scary, by the way.

I want to put that out there.

We were assessing them for suicidality and I did not feel scared.

And I just want to like Kind of.

Oh, that's an interesting.

And I've had one.

I've had one client in private practice who had homicidal or two.

And I want to say homicidality sounds really scary, but even though I haven't did a ton, it's not as scary as it sounds because at least all of the ones that I did, people were, like, very aware.

They weren't just, like, gonna, like, go postal on the nearest school.

It was like they.

They thought about it, but they weren't going to do it.

It'd be more scary if they weren't aware, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then the.

The ones that were the most uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable for me to work with were the people with psychosis.

But anyway, all that to go back to say, I don't know, can I maybe share some interesting stuff about suicidality?

So would that be helpful?

Yeah, I actually do have a question, too that I think is extremely helpful.

I.

Everyone says if you're suicidal, like, call this hotline, but I think a lot of people are actually scared to call the hotline because who is it getting reported to?

So, like, is it really that confidential to call the suicide hotline and safe to, like, be like, hey, I am, like, feeling like I need to kill myself.

Like, or do they call the cops on you?

Like, what.

What is that?

Is it safe?

Okay, so that's a really good question.

I will share with you.

I have.

I screenshotted, like, resource that was on one of my therapist pages of groups that you can call that don't call the police, because, yeah, they will take you in handcuffs.

Right.

And sometimes it's not helpful.

So my experience with the National Suicide Hotline, I wouldn't tell anybody.

Don't call it.

But, like, they put you on hold forever.

What?

Yeah, I.

I've never had anybody actually, like, get through, like, oh, yeah.

So I will say the one that I really, really, really like, Trevor Project, which is specifically for young LGBT people.

But the Trevor Project, you can text them, you can call them, you can, like, chat, like, on their website.

And they seem to be really good.

They're pretty well funded.

And I almost, like, I don't want anybody to abuse the system.

But at the same time, like, I've had the most success with people contacting the Trevor Project.

So maybe you're, like, bisexual that day.

If you need a reason.

You have to be within the community to call, like, for suicidal thoughts.

Or could you just be.

I don't.

I don't know.

Like, I don't want it, like, it's for LGBTQ young people, like, so good at what they do.

So good at what they do that maybe, maybe if you called them, maybe they would be like, hey, here's a resource that's more appropriate for you.

Or maybe you just tell them that you're an lgbt.

I don't know.

Like, I don't want to be like, but they're good.

Like, they, they handle it appropriately.

So, okay, I'm gonna call them.

I'm gonna call them.

Well, only if you're suicidal.

Like, don't.

But to get the scoop, like, hey, just.

Oh, yeah, like, like, call your, like, main number if you have insurance.

And if you want to go to the mental hospital because you really feel unsafe and you really feel like you might benefit, then you can just go to your nearest private mental hospital and give them your insurance information and admit yourself.

If you don't have insurance, you probably need to go through whatever your area's equivalent of MHMR is because there is probably a state or county resource that will pay for that for you.

Now, they aren't going to pay for the seven to 10 days that insurance.

Is going to pay for.

If you have insurance, though, you should know, and you probably don't know that there is an intermediate step between regular therapy and inpatient.

And it's really.

There are actually two intermediate steps.

One is partial hospitalization php, and one is intensive outpatient.

So the partial hospitalization programs.

Yeah, that's what the other P is, partial hospitalization programs.

Those usually come with a psychiatrist and medication management.

And.

And a lot of these are online.

Not the inpatient ones, but the PHPs and the IOPS a lot of times are online.

And like PHPs, you'll have like your weekly check in with a psychiatrist.

They tend to be like, maybe all day, Monday through Friday, you know, like a work day.

And those are a lot more like skills based.

Like, they have skills groups, they have process groups.

Whereas if you go to the mental hospital, they're really.

Most mental hospitals are not.

They mostly do med management and they keep you from killing yourself.

But yeah, I feel like they're just trying to get you under control.

Yeah.

Like, and if you're not, like, at the point of killing yourself, if you're just like, I would rather be dead, but like, or I'm thinking about being dead, but I'm not, like, gonna do it, or like, I'm thinking about doing it, but I'm not gonna do it right now.

Don't.

Probably impatient is not your best, best fit.

Probably IOP or PHP is a better fit for you.

So I did do intensive outpatient care after the second time in Texas, after I came out of the hospital then.

And I would say that was actually really beneficial.

Yeah, a lot of group therapy.

You did group some one on one?

Yeah, yeah.

I've had people have.

I've never had anybody have a.

I've had a lot of clients had bad experiences in the mental.

In the inpatient mental hospital.

I've had a couple of people who have had like, okay.

Ish experiences.

People tend to have positive or not worse than neutral experiences with IOP and php.

So like I really.

If you, especially if you have insurance, then you may not have IOP or PHP as an option.

But if you have insurance and you're like, not okay, I would look into that first.

If you're.

I don't know if Pathlight is only in Texas, but the one that I've had consistently good results with in Texas and it's online is called Pathlight Behavioral Health.

And I don't know if it's only Texas or if it's in other places, but I'm like, do Pathlight.

Path light's amazing.

And they do.

It's like three hours, three times a week for their IOP and it's like, it's a good program.

It's a combination.

Combination of CBT and DBT and their skills groups and like their process.

Like, I really, I really like.

Okay, so the other thing I wanted to say about suicidality is I'm going to actually share the risk of harm assessment that we did at MHMR because I made myself a cheat sheet because it was such a good assessment and I didn't want to ever forget it.

Like I had it really memorized.

Is this an assessment that we can do on ourselves, like when we're trying to assess like where we are?

Or is this like a mental.

Like a therapist tool?

No, like this is not for.

This is not a personal.

This is a therapist assessment.

But okay, okay.

That I wanted to share some of the thing that's.

Some of the things that's on it so that people understand kind of.

Like.

What goes in to suicidality.

These are kind of the things that, like if an assessment is being done on you to determine your risk, like these are things.

And this is going to be kind of insightful because you'll be like, oh, I didn't realize that that was maybe part of this.

Or I didn't realize.

Right.

So this.

So it's a very holistic bio social it's like.

It's a biopsychosocial assessment, meaning it takes into account all the things, right?

Like your family, your job, like, everything.

Okay.

So we would assess for your passive thoughts of death.

So passive thoughts of death and suicidal thoughts are two different things.

Passive thoughts of death is like, I wish I didn't wake up in the morning.

I want to just disappear.

I wish God would take me.

But you're not going to do it, but, like, you don't want to be here, and you just want to, like, disappear.

My clients have passive thoughts of death.

Like, I don't think I have a day where I don't talk to somebody with ptod.

Like, I feel like PTOD is a lot of people's baseline.

And if that's you, I would say definitely get on meds, definitely get on therapy.

And usually medicine therapy will probably get you to where you're like, okay with living again.

You probably don't.

If you want to do IOP or php, you could.

But to me, passive thoughts of death is a get on meds.

More normal than we might think.

Suicidal.

It's a.

To me, it's everybody.

Like, I.

I don't know, like, not.

Not everybody.

Like, once they're in therapy and on meds.

But, like, pretty much everybody at the start of therapy is like, yeah, I'd rather not be.

Yeah.

I mean, I also specialize in trauma.

Right.

So that's not everybody who goes to therapy, but, like, yeah, my people.

So taking into account that, like, how long has this been going on and how often is it.

Is it all the time every day, or is it, like, fleetingly a couple times a year?

If it's fleeting, like, a couple of times a year, you know, that's not as big of a deal.

If it's like, all the time, every day you're like, I want to disappear.

I want to not be here anymore.

And then suicidal thoughts.

If you're actually having thoughts of like, okay, this is how I would do it.

This is when I would do it.

That to me is, let's definitely be on beds.

Let's a take.

Definitely be in therapy.

Let's talk to our therapist about if we want to and if we, like, have a plan.

Like, this is the thing I'm going to use to do it.

I writing goodbye notes to my family.

Like, okay, like, if you're writing goodbye to your family, you need to go to the hospital.

Like, yeah, has.

Go.

Do not collect $200.

Go to the hospital.

Okay.

We would assess for homicidal Thoughts, I don't come across that very often.

So cutting or other types of self harm are not the same as suicidal thoughts.

They are a risk factor though because like if you are self harming, you are more at risk.

But they're two different things and I want people to know that they're two different things.

That makes sense if you've had a previous attempt.

So the way I see it is like the lowest that you've ever been.

It's like yeah, you kind of fill that up.

Like it like however deep you've dug your hole, you fill that back in as you do all your mental health things.

But like that dirt isn't as compact as like the dirt around it.

And so like to your lowest again kind of relatively easy.

So lowest and then making an attempt, it's not that hard to get back down to being at suicide.

Right, right.

And so it's previous attempts are definitely a risk factor.

You know, just be aware of that.

Yeah.

Preparatory acts, like giving things away, writing notes.

If you're doing preparatory acts, please go to the hospital.

Having access to guns, it like increases your risk because people don't usually like people might survive, like cutting, like suicidal cutting or they might survive taking pills.

But usually people don't attempt if they're using guns and usually like less like more often complete suicide if they are using ropes.

So you said attempt, but I think you meant succeed.

It's called completing.

Completing suicide.

Okay.

Yes, but I probably awkward.

So yeah.

So access to guns.

If you are having suicidal thoughts at all, please don't let yourself have access to guns.

Like give them to a friend, have them in a safe that you don't have the code to.

Like guns and suicidality, please, please don't mix them.

I will also say alcohol and suicidality are, are, do not go together either because you're a lot more likely to attempt drunk then you are.

I'm not encouraging to anyone to do anything illegal, but people don't very often attempt when they are high.

But they do.

People will attempt when they're drunk, when they're not otherwise suicidal.

So avoiding alcohol and also like mixing alcohol with like benzos or narcotics, like again, please stay away.

And I understand like if you're suicidal you probably want to drink, but if you could use something else to dissociate that isn't alcohol.

And I'm not encouraging you to do anything illegal but like weed.

I mean they tried to put me on a benzo.

I don't drink, but they tried to put me on a Benzo.

After the dog died.

Well, but that's okay.

Oh, I don't know.

I was scared.

I didn't take it.

That's a different conversation for a different day.

I personally, I, I think benzos, rescue meds are fantastic.

Oh, okay.

I got scared and I didn't kill it.

I, I mean, I, I love benzos as a rescue med, but you can get addicted and so you do have.

To, you want to like stay on it.

Take them as do.

Do Take them as prescribed and don't exceed your prescribed dose.

For sure.

But I mean, they're great.

I mean, if you're having a panic.

They have a place.

Yeah, they have.

I, I am all for Klonopin for a panic.

I am not a doctor, though, and I can't say that.

Talk to your fiber and follow their.

Yeah, okay.

History of abuse and trauma.

Huge risk factor for suicidality.

We know this.

I don't, I mean, I don't think anybody here or anybody listening to your show is going to be.

Guess right.

Yeah.

Specific risk factors that we would assess for are hopelessness, purposelessness, not having a support system, or not wanting a support system.

Like being alone.

I just want to be alone.

Having either a lack of coping skills or coping skills that are negative, such as substances or you know, what you would call like your negative coping skills.

Like, yeah, compulsive type behaviors.

Another huge risk factor is having lost someone to suicide in your life.

So if you maybe lost, even if it was like 15 years ago, but like having, or you lost a friend, losing someone to suicide definitely increases your risk.

Disturbed thinking, which can be associated with psychosis.

But things like paranoia can increase your risk.

If you have a previous mental diagnosis, even if it was like, oh, I haven't had a diagnosis of whatever since I was a teenager, it still increases your risk for right now.

Are we talking about just like a diagnosis of anxiety or depression?

Are we talking about psychosis?

Right.

Oh, oh, oh, I thought you had psychosis.

Oh, no, no, no.

Sorry.

Diet.

A diet.

Previous mental diagnosis.

You know, like, if you've had a history of like, oh, yeah, I've been diagnosed with this and this and this and this and this.

And I don't know what my current diagnosis is, but like when I was in eighth grade, they told me I had this.

When I was in 12th grade, they told me I had this.

Okay, right.

Like all, like some people have that history.

That's a risk factor.

Poor physical health can be a little bit of a risk factor, but your, your biopsychosocial Stuff.

So your family situation, do you have a supportive family?

Do you not have a supportive family?

Are you going through a divorce?

Are your parents getting divorced?

If you're a kid, do you have a job?

Do you like your job?

Or are you losing your job?

Or are you, like, working 100 hours a week and only getting paid for two of them?

Level of education can be.

Can be associated.

Right.

Like, but also, like, is your level of education, like, creating perfection?

Right.

Like, so, yeah.

And obviously your housing situation, are you homeless?

If you're homeless, you're definitely more at risk, right?

Yeah.

Or are you under housed in whatever way that is?

And like, what kind of support do you have?

So, like, maybe you don't have any family, but maybe somehow you magically have some financial support.

Okay, well, that's a little bit of a protective factor.

It's not the biggest protective factor, but, like, so that biopsychosocial stuff, family, job, housing, support, because those are your basic structure needs.

Right.

So all of that stuff is kind of goes into how much of a risk there is.

The biggest risk is, have you had the thought, I want to kill myself today?

And if you have that thought today, you need to get help.

And if you are thought frequently, you need to get help.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What I was thinking as you're going through this list is like, I remember starting with my therapist, and then I feel like every other week she would, like, read through a lot of.

Not a lot of them, because we've had already, like, read through them.

But there was asking, like, oh, is there a past of, like, abuse, like, trauma abuse?

Is there a history of, like, do you know anyone who's been suicidal?

Like, things that I thought was really weird to ask, like, how is this.

Like, she was doing the same assessment that I have right here.

Yeah.

And I.

And I had no idea because, like, asking in different words than, like, what you just used, but, like, essentially hitting all of those, like, marks.

And I remember just thinking, like, why aren't like, this.

Why is she asking me that?

This doesn't make sense.

But I do remember she got to the job.

Like, she.

I remember her saying, how do you feel about your work environment?

And then I just started bawling and I was like, I don't know why I'm coming.

So then it turned out that, like, I, like, do feel sad and feel like my past job had let me down and that I was really holding onto a lot of trauma from that.

And so that, like, gave us something to, like, kind of Go off of.

Of, like, well, that doesn't help.

Like, because then that's what led you to the ideas of suicide.

Like, I didn't realize.

I didn't really know the difference between passive.

What's the passive thoughts and.

Yeah.

And what's, like, an actual risk.

Don't delineate between the two, although to me, they're very, very different.

But.

Yeah.

Yes.

So I remember her asking these questions and thinking that was really weird.

And then the work thing came up, and then that stemmed, like, obviously, like, that was a big spiral of realizing, oh, there's actually a lot of, like, suicidal thoughts than what I realized.

But, like, just a compound of things.

And I would have thought that, like, it was normal.

Like, if you're contemplating suicide, like, that you are, like, already going through the process of, like, oh, this is where I would do it, because I want to make sure the kids or, like, husband doesn't find me.

This is how I would do it so that, like, I'm not inconveniencing anyone.

And, like, I thought that that was, like, normal.

Like, passive thoughts that, like, aren't a big deal.

That's active when you get to that point, that's a little bit more active.

Yeah, I didn't.

I thought that was passive.

I mean, what's normal to us is normal to us.

Yeah.

So it was just interesting hearing, like, you say, like, no, no, no.

If you, like, have a plan of, like, this is how I would do it.

And where, like, you need help right now.

And I didn't get help until it didn't get serious enough to get help until later.

Like, much later.

Like a year later.

So.

So you were talking about the job and Interesting study came out a couple years ago, and I'm sorry, I can't cite the study.

I don't know.

It's fine.

But afterwards, if we want to cite it.

But a study came out a couple years ago about how much your job, specifically your manager, impacts your mental health equal to your spouse.

Whoa.

And it was more.

I think it's.

I think all of us here would say, of course it's more than your doctor, but your job impacts your mental health more than your therapist.

I mean, is that really that crazy?

Because you spend about it.

You spend most of your days at work.

Like, most of your day is at work.

Yeah, you're right.

But I mean, it was.

It's cool that, like, a study came out that measured it equal to your spouse more than your doctor or therapist.

Huh?

Yeah, I had spousal issues and Work issues.

That's great.

Yeah.

So, I mean, definitely.

Well, it's gotta.

It plays a big part into your self worth too.

Yeah.

And like you said, sense of purpose, I think was one of the things that are hopelessness, purposefulness.

Yeah.

I felt like it was a waste of my time.

Like, you let.

Are you still around?

Yep, I'm still here.

It was like a waste of my time.

Like, I spent a year building this into something beautiful, perfect, very functional.

And then I had a baby and was gone for like a month and a half.

And you've destroyed it.

And your words to me are, you can fix it again.

You can make it great again.

And I'm like, you guys were so bad that a girl got mauled by a dog and sent to the hospital.

Like, how can.

I'm not gonna fix that.

Like, you guys messed up.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Wow, that's.

Thank you for sharing all that.

No, like, really expecting that, but that.

Kind of ties everything.

It did.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Well, I.

I was like, I wonder if I need to like, prepare anything.

I was like, I guess not.

I'll just show up.

We're winging it.

Yeah.

Now, just to kind of put, I guess as an ending thought and just to kind of put it all into perspective, you're saying that it is normal.

What I heard you say is that it's normal for everyone to at some point feel a suicidal idealation at some point.

Is that what I heard?

I'm saying it's super common.

Well, sometimes when we say the word normal, we kind of mean.

We kind of interchange the word normal with healthy.

And I wouldn't say, oh, okay, okay.

Healthy.

Right.

Like, I would say it's probably a lot common than people realize, but if you're having thoughts of wanting to die, please get help.

Like, yeah, Ideation is different than a passive thought too though, right?

Yeah.

And the other thing I want to say around that, some people, some therapists still do it back in the day.

The kind of standard of care if you told your therapist that you wanted to die is they would.

You would sign a contract that you wouldn't kill yourself.

Which is dumb, right?

Because it's probably saved a couple lives, but it hasn't saved a ton of lives because yourself, like, why would your contract with your therapist like it really it.

That contract was to cover the therapist's ass more than got you.

What they need to do is be like, you will traumatize my children forever, and if you do, I will kill you.

So right like, and I.

That's a little different.

It worked.

That's the support.

So like your therapist isn't your primary support system, but the people that you're listening.

Right, exactly.

And you have a lot more attachment to these kids than you do to an adult therapist that you see for an hour a week.

Right, but what, what hopefully if you, hopefully if you tell your therapist that you're having passive thoughts of death or suicidal thoughts is they will do a safety plan with you.

And a safety plan is.

And if you use your safety plan, they work now, obviously.

Okay, you know, don't use your safety plan then.

It's not going to do anything.

What's the safety plan then?

A safety plan.

Glad you asked.

This actually could really hopefully help someone.

And what would you say?

Like, do we know statistics about like the safety plans?

And like you can find.

Yes, there are statistics out there when they validated this safety plan and I'm so sorry, I don't remember the exact name.

It has a special name and they, they studied it.

This is the one that I learned when I worked for mhmr.

And yes, there are statistics.

They're really good numbers.

And also like probably over half of my clients have safety plans on file with me.

I mean I do have like one person who has like a lot of like her baseline is passive thoughts of death because of her trauma.

Her trauma and like the stuff going on in her life.

She works her safety plan really well.

Like, I mean she checks in with me.

Like I have my own scale.

It's not a scale that everybody uses.

So the numbers.

Oh yeah, I think you shared that with us once.

Yeah.

Okay.

So like she'll like check in with me frequently and be like, this is where I'm at today.

This is where I think I might get to.

And like she put herself in.

She like got herself because she lives alone.

So she like went to a friend's house for it was several days because she was like, I don't think I'm safe to be alone.

Like, so she works saf plan and because of like extenuating circumstances in her life, we're like, we don't want to have to put you in the mental hospital.

Like, I don't really want anybody to go, but like I extra, extra didn't want her to go and she extra, extra didn't want her to go.

And so she's like super proactive and I mean she is the queen of the safety plan.

And we have probably avoided a lot of problems because she uses her safety plan.

So.

Well, I will say my therapist has like, I don't think she calls it a safety plan, but it's like this made up scale that we made up together basically.

And so like I and Simon know that if I.

If you like, if we're in a super stimulating, stressful situation that if I say I'm a five out of five, then that means we need to.

I need to have like a d.

Stimulizing moment.

Like I need to go de Escalize.

Yes, my sins.

You've seen it.

Um, but if I get to a seven, like that's dire.

Like whatever we're doing, we're leaving right now.

Because once we get past a 7 to 8, 9, 10, I will have a seizure.

So.

So like we have numbers of evaluating where I'm at.

I mean that's not this.

But that's a safety.

I mean that's a safety plan of sorts.

And it does work.

It.

Most of the time it does work.

Yes.

I can look at him and be.

Or he'll look at me and be like, hey, what's your number?

And like I'll say a number and then we'll decide.

Okay.

Well that means we're supposed to do this now.

Wow, that's actually really also very supportive of him.

Oh yeah, we might have to go like ASAP.

No, I think we have to be there at 3:30.

Are you serious?

Yeah.

So we need to go.

Go shoot.

Okay.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, that's okay.

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Sam.