Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today, we have a special guest, Daphna Nachminovitch from PETA. Uh, welcome Daphna and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

Thank you, Dr. G. Thank you so much for having me.

So can you start by giving us a rundown of your background and kind of what led you to where you are today and your current position at PETA?

Sure. Um, I actually started in the animal protection field in the early 90s working at an open admission shelter in downtown Chicago called the Anti Cruelty Society. I worked there for several years, both as a kennel technician and a receiving agent, and eventually I went on to work at their low cost, uh, spay neuter clinic. Thank you. And I then, I came to PETA 26 years ago in 1997. I started as a cruelty caseworker, and today I oversee PETA's cruelty investigations department, which includes a small animal shelter. four mobile spay neuter clinics and a field work division of about a dozen field workers who go out into our immediate area within about a two hour radius, which includes some very impoverished counties in North Carolina, Northeastern North Carolina and Southeastern Virginia. And, um, we try to make their lives better and get legislation passed that prevents behavior that causes them to suffer, essentially.

Excellent. And I'm really glad to have you here because, you know, I know that some people have misconceptions about PETA as far as, you know, being extremists and that kind of stuff. And I have to say I'm guilty of that because when I was in college, people would say like, Oh, somebody let all the mink out of the cages. So clearly that was like a PETA person or something like that. And over time, I have, I have been able to learn that that is not the case. And I have been able to work with cruelty cases that you guys have actually started with. I believe that you guys had some to do with the Envigo case, the initial investigations.

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, so I think that, you know, people need to, like, like everything that we're going to be discussing today. It's about education and then learning, learning from that. So, uh, the main reason I invited you here today is because I wanted to talk about this whole concept of no kill. And I want to start by saying this is not dumping on best friends society, because I think that they do a great job as far as trying to help with shelters and uh, resources for animals, but I don't think the public understands what the no kill concept actually means and the problems that it brings about. So, one of, I guess the goals of this today is to define what no kill actually means and share the problems with the no kill movement when it goes too far. And then, if anything, let the public understand what their part is in the... I say how their demands and are causing problems to the rescues and shelters. So can you, I guess, to get this started, can you talk about what the perception of no kill is and what it actually means?

Sure. Well, I mean, I think I'd like to also start by just saying that the term itself is It's first of all, very misleading to the average member of the public, but it's also extremely divisive. You know, when I started in this field in the early nineties and I worked for the anti cruelty society, um, I would be behind that receiving desk and people would come in and including, you know, frequent flyers whose animals had litters. You know, season after season and the first thing that they would say was, you know, you're not going to kill them, are you, you know, completely oblivious to the big picture and the fact that as an open admission shelter, at least at the time that was open 365 days a year from 9am to 7pm, that we were overwhelmed with animals and that euthanasia was part of our daily reality as the shelter workers and in my experience and certainly as someone who started in this field, As a very optimistic, bright eyed young person straight out of college, you know, I myself didn't understand euthanasia. And I remember that when I was interviewed, I was told that the shelter performs euthanasia. And my reaction was, well, I won't have to do it, will I? And then I ended up, you know, being trained to perform euthanasia because I realized from where I was coming from anyway, after a dog I was attached to had to be euthanized because there was you know, some nobody wanted her. She was a perfectly perfect dog, but she just didn't get adopted. Um, she was a white German shepherd named Candy and she, you know, she went through foster and antibiotics for kennel cough and, you know, we tried for several weeks and she never got adopted. And I stayed with her. And then I realized that You know, if I were to stay in that shelter, I, I felt that that was a really the most significant place for me to be is to be there for animals who had been discarded by someone else. And, you know, I wanted to make sure that their last moment on earth was filled with love and kindness and respect. And so I, I did that. I, I went ahead and transferred to the department that performed euthanasia and it opened my eyes to a whole new world of, um, You know, disappointment in, in people that, uh, bring their animals to the shelter. And so I, I think the term, you know, thinking of, of myself at the time and the people I worked with and, and, and, you know, today too, I'm still a euthanasia technician and our shelter at PETA euthanizes animals who are at the end of their lives for people who cannot afford to have that done at a private. clinic, but we also euthanize animals who are unadoptable for one reason or another. And I think the term has caused a tremendous amount of not just damage to our ability to work together as a, as an animal protection movement, but by really misleading the public into thinking that not euthanizing animals was possible in a humane world. And it just isn't, you know, and so the term itself, I think, uh, I, I mean, I, I don't use it. Um, unless I'm describing a situation that led to, you know, a real situation, a factual situation that led to a hoarder case or a cruelty case. But I think that the public is misled into believing that animal shelters can clean up after them without having to euthanize, and that's unfortunately not the case. So I think the term itself is something that has misled the public and has regressed us as a society because when you tell people that their local shelter is so called no kill, you are enabling them to continue buying from breeders, buying from pet stores, failing to spay or neuter, thinking that I can just take the animals to my local shelter because they won't euthanize them or quote unquote kill them. So I think it's a damaging, divisive, and dangerous term. Uh, and I, I urge everyone to do away with it.

Yeah, I don't like it because I think that it's very inflammatory, right? Like we are saying no kill. So we're saying that a shelter that euthanizes for whatever reason that they're killing, which is akin to murdering. So it's a, it's a very brutal term to use. And I'm sure that it is. It was. Picked very carefully because it, it creates a reaction, right? Yeah,

it's a marketing slogan. And as a marketing slogan, it's been very successful. Because it's a term that's become a household term now. But I don't think your average person has any idea what animals and the people who work to end animal homelessness and overpopulation face every day. And I would challenge anybody to work one day at an open admission shelter behind that receiving desk because, um, you know, it just really opens your eyes to how casual people are about acquiring and discarding sentient live companion animals, you know, animals who feel pain, suffering, loneliness, fear. And, you know, people just take for granted that they can take them to the animal shelter and everything will be okay. And for that animal, even if they are well adjusted and sweet and adoptable, it's, it's traumatic to be separated from who they perceive as their family.

I think that the public perception causes especially like local politicians, for instance, we work with a dog pound that is overwhelmed and they're and they're not limited intake. So they have to take everything in as far as cruelty and everything and the and the local government tells the pound, you cannot euthanize anything because we have to maintain that, that number, right, which we will talk about in a second. So instead of them being able to do what's needed, what they do is they, they have to stack cages and increase the, the number of the room to house animals, but they're not really doing anything to, to correct the number. So one of the, one of the things that I want to discuss is that no kill is not really truly no kill. It allows a certain number of euthanasia. And I think that's something that people do not understand. And that's where that whole 10 percent comes about. So can you discuss what the 10 percent means and what is allowed to be euthanized within that 10%?

Yeah, I mean, I think to me, that's honestly just part of the Fact that this is just a huge sham and a shell game, you know, it's like, well, your quote unquote no kill if your quote unquote save rate is 90%. So you are allowed so to speak to euthanize 10 percent of the animals that you take in, because that's You know, that's what you can basically rule as unadoptable, whether it's old age or temperament or poor health. And so you can be, you can call yourself no kill as long as you're releasing alive 90 percent of the animals you took in. That does not take into account any intake policies, whether animal shelters provide euthanasia as a community service to people who cannot afford to take their animal to the vet, which is becoming more and more of a challenge for everybody. Um, it does not take into account animal shelters that don't accept any cats or feral cats. Um, I like to call them free roaming cats because I think a lot of cats who are dumped outside as part of trap neuter release or return programs right now are not feral at all. I think they're perfectly friendly cats that the shelter did not want to deal with. So they turned them away and we are seeing this, you know, in our own backyard in Norfolk, Virginia, um, our local shelter, our municipal taxpayer funded shelter essentially stopped taking in cats and traps. If the cat you know, looks healthy to the average person, then somebody must be feeding them and everything is okay. That is a complete opposite than what I was, you know, my experience, especially in Chicago, where it gets to be so cold. And every winter, I would check, take in free roaming feral cats with bits of their ears missing and frostbite scars from frostbite and You know, beat up Tom cats and, you know, yes, they were alive and somebody was feeding them, but they didn't get any veterinary care or any kind of responsible guardianship from anybody, and I'm never going to be one of those people who thinks that a cat outside. Taking their chances is better off than a cat who is in a shelter, even if that means for that cat that they're going to be euthanized. Because the reality is, and I know a lot of people don't like to hear it, but when you put a cat back outside, just the fact that they're spayed or neutered does not mean they're not going to die a violent, terrible death, and most of them do. And at PETA, where we do take in, we're honestly almost the last animal shelter to address the feral cat issue, so we do spay or neuter feral cats on our clinics. For people who commit to taking care of them. But for people who don't want them around, um, of a lot of, unfortunately, we get a lot of referrals from shelters that do not take them in, or veterinarians, or municipalities. And the cats that we take in who are, you know, who are feral are not in good shape at all. You know, there's missing eyes, there's, you know, severe upper respiratory infections, there's FIV, FIP, feline AIDS. You know, these cats are not... Contrary to what people are told thriving outside. In fact, they're, you know, they're, they're going to be hit by a car and they may not die as a result. They have urinary tract infections, just like the cats we have as our companions in our home. And you know, what always bothers me with this is that the same organizations who advocate keeping cats inside are the organizations that are touting trap, neuter, return. And to me, these cats, the cats who are outside are biologically identical to our indoor cats. It's our job to keep them safe. And certainly as an animal rights person, I believe that wildlife... has an inherent right to their planet as well. And we cannot deny the impact of free roaming cats on wildlife populations. But what we're seeing is a sort of push for trap, neuter return, because the shelters don't want to take in and euthanize cats who may not be adoptable. And so that is causing a huge problem because, uh, just because a cat is turned away doesn't mean that cat is even sterilized. I mean, I would be willing to even say, okay, if you're sterilizing the cat, but what we're seeing in our own backyard and in communities across the country is cats who are just refused entry and there's no effort to ensure that they won't reproduce. They're just, people are just being told we don't take in healthy cats off the street and just put them back because somebody's taking care of them regardless of their reproductive status. So essentially. The animal welfare community is promoting the breeding of outdoor cats by, by not ensuring that these cats are sterilized and with the veterinary workforce shortage right now, it's gets, gets harder and harder and harder to get appointments for, for anybody, let alone for, for free roaming cats in traps. So that's, you know, the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah. So what I, what we see is the issue to, to your point, as far as with the numbers, if somebody brings in an animal and says, you know, I want to surrender it. Well, why do you want to surrender it? Because X, Y, and Z. And the pound says, well, we don't have room, but we'll euthanize it for you. Then it's considered an owner requested euthanasia. It doesn't go into the numbers, right? So that's one way of manipulating numbers. There are places that will say, I cannot adopt this animal, but I'm going to send it to this other shelter, which is a kill shelter. And then we live released it. That's then becomes the other person's problem. So there's a lot of manipulation that can happen with numbers.

Absolutely, so those are perfect examples. Absolutely. And we're seeing the same thing is like, we're going to take in this cat, but we're not going to euthanize them. We're going to transfer them to a group that does TNR. So the cat ends up being. you know, outside anyway. Um, there's certainly, there's a lot of transfer to groups that call themselves rescue groups, but really are hoarder, hoarder rescues, which I know you've covered in one of your previous episodes. We see that a lot. We actually have a running list on our website at PETA. org for those who are interested. Um, it's cataloged by date and jurisdiction and there are countless examples of, uh, municipalities releasing animals to so called rescue groups that essentially just warehouse those animals. And then eventually the municipality has to spend taxpayer dollars seizing the very animals that they transferred to a rescue group just to keep their So called live release rates high. And so I think, you know, to me, this lack of transparency is really, it's not just detrimental for the animals, which is obviously my most serious concern. But I do think it sends a message to the public that, um, that is not prompting change. And if we don't educate the public and engage our communities in the need to spay or neuter and the need to support their local admission shelter and to really educate themselves about the state of affairs, because we've experienced, and I know this is a nationwide problem, you know, a very difficult summer. You know, our people are animal shelters and adoption groups are overwhelmed with animals. It's not, it's not that it's anything new. It just seems like it's especially, um, taxing this summer. And I think part of that is because you do have this kind of musical chairs as facilities referring you to other facilities or giving you You know, lists of other facilities to call and it's, it's, um, it's, you know, in my experience, especially, you know, standing behind that receiving desk in a lot of situations. I'm not saying every single situation, but in a lot of situations, those people are done. They are at the end of their rope. They're coming to your shelter. With that animal. They don't want that animal anymore. The bond has been broken. They want to get rid of that animal. I'm putting using their words, not mine. And you know what I learned behind that receiving desk was that I'm getting that animal away from that person who doesn't want that animal because nothing good is going to happen to that animal if I force them to hang on to her or him. You know, our job is to keep the animals safe and if those animals are not wanted, I'm not going to Try to keep them with that person. I don't understand that mentality. Um, at PETA we do have a program where we help people pay for vet care. We help people with food. We help people with, you know, really anything and everything. And if it's a good home and I believe that animal is happy and has quality of life, I'm going to dedicate resources to keeping that animal happy because I know that's what the animal would benefit from and what the human would want. You know, the human is not looking. to offload an animal. They're looking to keep an animal. But when an animal is brought to your shelter and the people are, I mean, I have people tell me, you know, I can't, I don't want to look at them anymore. My kids are not taking care of them. They're eating me out of house and home. I never forget a dog named Scram who was named Scram. I mean, how do you name your dog? Scram and she was surrendered to the shelter at five years of age because she could open the fridge. That's why they got rid of her. She got a wonderful home, but you know, it's just like you, some people just shouldn't have animals and that's the reality we live in. And I think the current state of sheltering encourages, you know, barriers to intake, but not barriers for adoption. Let's give animals away for free. Open, clear the shelters. Anybody can come and get any animal they want. They don't have to pay an adoption fee. It completely disregards the lifetime commitment, the cost, and the time. I mean, the resources. I mean, the time and resources it takes to provide loving, responsible care to an animal is a serious thing. You know, people should not be encouraged to just get as many dogs for free as they can And then, I am seeing barriers to intake. Adoption, you know, admission fees, limited hours, waiting lists, you know, you try all of the, you know, try Craigslist. What a disastrous, uh, advice, you know, to put your animal on Craigslist where any... Or on Facebook. Or Facebook, you know, I mean, why? You know, why are you encouraging people to do irresponsible things with their animals, you know? I'm, in my experience... experience and my opinion is that animal shelter should serve as a safe haven. Our job as people who care about animals is to keep them safe, to ensure that they do have a safe place to go. And if they are adopted, that their new home is a good, loving, respectful home where they're treated as a member of a family, not just kept in a crate all day long while somebody goes to work or chained outside or penned outside. Or yelled at if they do something undesirable or perceived, you know, I mean, we just need to be, I think it's important for people to understand not just the state of sheltering, but why it's important for them to really commit to an animal. And, and I mean, not just money, but also time and attention and quality of life. You know, these animals did not ask to be in our homes with us, we brought them in. So it's, we owe to them to give them a good quality of life.

I see on occasion when people will will discuss about the 10 percent and somebody will refer to it as an arbitrary number, and then somebody will come out mad saying, I can't believe it. I take offense that you saying that it's arbitrary, but it is arbitrary, right? There is no actual data. where that 10 percent came from and what people don't understand is you can have a shelter in a high income affluent area, plenty of resources, tons of veterinarians and low intake because everybody has access to spay neuter so there's not that much and they may be able, crap, they may be able to have a 2 percent uh, you know, euthanasia rate. And you cannot compare that to a shelter that's going to be in a rural setting with no veterinarians, no resources, uh, either no veterinarians or the lack for people to find affordable or accessible veterinary care and then. There is no spay neuter, so all these people in rural settings have all these large breed dogs that are just reproducing like crazy, and then what are they going to do? They're going to try to take them to the shelter. What's the shelter going to do when one of these large breed dogs has 10 dogs, 10 puppies, and now the shelter has 10 times how many litters? So. You cannot expect that 10%. And if you go to the actual no kill page it will even say that 10 percent is not for everyone. So best friends even acknowledges this, that 10 percent is in fact an arbitrary number just based on what they expect should be okay. But that is what is not getting translated, translated into society is people don't understand that. You know, that 10 percent is not really for everybody. Uh, you know, what's no kill for one place, alleged no kill for one place is not for, is not feasible at all for another.

Well, yeah, that's absolutely right, but the other thing is that I think the focus on numbers and percentages has harmed animals in ways we will never be able to measure. If you, I think that there, there are policies and there are decisions that are made based on the desire to maintain a percentage and, you know, animals are caught in that. And they suffer the consequences. It is, as you say, of course, every jurisdiction is different. We all have different challenges. There's rural versus urban, there's affluent versus impoverished. I mean, all of those things. I'll just give you PETA's animal shelter as an example. Because we are open admission. We do not charge people, we do not turn anybody away. We are very transparent about the fact that we do euthanize feral cats. We offer a free community euthanasia service for people who bring us animals at the end of their lives, and we were, during COVID, we were, we were inundated with animals in that situation because the veterinarians were closed and people wanted to stay with their animals and they couldn't during COVID, and we were the only way So even people who had the money to afford euthanasia at their local veterinary clinic came to us because they were able to stay with their animal. Whereas at their vet clinic, they were not. And unlike the, what you described, if a shelter marks owner request euthanasia in Virginia and owner requests, euthanasia is not separate from any euthanasia at your shelter. So those are part of our numbers. So we don't, so we also don't just serve one jurisdiction. We serve Dozens, if not hundreds of jurisdictions. So, you know, our numbers compared to one small adoption agencie's numbers that takes in, you know, 10 animals a month, they can have a hundred percent. You know, adoption rate, but our numbers get compared to other facilities numbers, regardless of their policies, regardless of how many jurisdictions they serve, regardless of whether they're on, we're on call 24 hours a day. We have someone on, two people on call any given day, any day of the year, Christmas, New Year's Day, Thanksgiving, we're on call. If there's an animal who's been hit by a car. And the local police won't respond. They call us. We'll go out. All of that is part of our euthanasia rates. To me, you know, I could sit there and go, well, I can't help those animals because if I help those animals, then my euthanasia rate is going to spike. I'm not going to think about what my percentage looks like. I'm going to think about what that individual animal needs. That animal needs help. I'm not here to You know, I'm not here for good percentages. I'm here to improve quality of life and suffering. Make the world a kinder place. I think we're sending a dangerous message to our society when we package these things and 10%, 90 percent live release rates, save rates, these are animals. They're each individuals with their own needs and personalities. And a lot of them have been already victimized by society because they were discarded. They were born unwanted. They were dumped. They have had five, six homes. I mean, all of the dogs and cats I ended up with had multiple people responsible for them before I ended up with them. And, you know, I just, I think one of the biggest problems that we're facing too, is that we're still, it's still legal to go buy a dog at a pet shop. That's insane. To me, that's insane right now. We've got, our shelters are overwhelmed. Taxpayers are paying for. Housing and, you know, vet care and sometimes euthanasia of animals, we, we're not doing things that make sense, you know, and so I think the, the numbers game, I do think it's a game, I think it's, I mean, I think it's It's nonsense. I think it's a shell game. I think you can manipulate your numbers to look any way you want, you know, if you don't tell the truth, or you embellish the truth, or you leave things out. I think that the public can be very gullible in that regard. And that, but I think for me, if I had to You know, one chance to give a message to the average person is that look a little deeper, you know, look a little deeper. What does it mean? What are their policies? Who do they help? Who didn't they help? You know, I would love to have as part of our statistics as a, as a, you know, the animal sheltering community, for lack of a better term, is how many calls did you take where you said no? How many animals did you turn away? What percentage of animals did you not take in that somebody asked you for help with? Because those animals don't just vanish. They just don't end up being part of your 100%. But they still exist and they still needed help. And in my view, if, if... If you're an animal shelter, especially a taxpayer, you know, a taxpayer funded animal shelter, and you turn animals away, you have turned your back on animals who need you and you have let them down and you've let down your community. And I feel very strongly about that. I think that there are small adoption groups that do wonderful work and they have It's their right to take in the most adoptable what they think they can, you know, they're volunteering a lot of time. They're working very hard and I commend them and we work with groups like that. But when we're talking about taxpayer funded shelters, there has to be, you know, like socially conscious sheltering that like the socially conscious sheltering model says. There has to be a place in the community that accepts all animals and makes responsible decisions. And having worked at a place that had to make those decisions. I mean, of course, you know, this is not easy, you know, and that's another thing that our communities don't realize is the toll it takes on people who work in animal shelters, the toll it takes on veterinary staff. Uh, I mean, it's, this is not easy work. I mean, you know, we've all heard, I could never do what you do. I love animals too much. Or, you know, this kind of nonsense, completely oblivious to like the fact that you lose sleep at night thinking about, you know, an animal that you came in contact with and feeling so, so much compassion and so much love. And, you know, wishing you could make up to them what other people have done. Um, So I, I think I, to me, the percentages and the numbers have gotten completely out of control and, and they're meaningless because you can, as you say, you can, you essentially, if you pick and choose which animals you take into your program, then your percentages are meaningless because you're just giving me the percentages on the animals you took in. What about the percentages of the animals you didn't take in? What happened to them? Well, nobody knows because there's no tracking of that. You know, animals will get hit by a car in the very. parking lot of the shelter that rejected them, and then the shelter takes them in. You know? Why? Why did you have to turn the person away to begin with? If that person is frustrated and temperamental, it's not rocket science that that animal is in danger. Even if you cannot house that animal Long term, at least get that animal away from the dangerous person and keep them safe until there's a solution. It's, it's not difficult. This is very simple in my, in my view, you know, but I, I think what I've seen over 26 years, 30 some years of being in this field, 26 at PETA is just irreversible. I hate to sound doom and gloom, but somewhat irreversible, irreversible damage of these no kill policies because they're going in a direction that means we have more animals than ever. And we saw that even, you know, with COVID where even larger organizations were saying, You know, spaying and neutering is not an essential service. Well, I beg to differ. I think spaying and neutering is the most essential service that you can provide for companion animals today. And our clinics never stopped. And, you know, we just did check in outside, you know, but there was a study that came out. I don't, I don't remember the source, but that there was a 2. 7 million animal gap in spay neuter because of COVID. And that, you know, that's, That's part of that mentality that got spay neuter at the bottom of the list. And somehow, you know, the public has been led to believe that the worst thing that can happen to an animal is euthanasia at an animal shelter. And that is just not the truth. I mean, we see worse things every single day, as I'm sure you do too.

Yeah, I, I think going back a little bit to where you said about people that say, I couldn't do what you do because I love animals. It's like, like, we don't, right. So my, I have a technician that actually was, was sharing with me that somebody told her that, and she got really upset. And she said, I love animals too. Why do you make an assumption that I don't love animals just because I can be with them, you know, when they're injured or help them get better or unfortunately sometimes have to be there when the time that they need to be euthanized. But yeah, with the, with the numbers game. I just see it play out in a lot of different rescues and a lot of different shelters and not at the fault of the shelter itself. They're just, you know, their money comes in from donations, their money comes in from grants, and they have to keep these donors and these grantees happy. And if they cannot produce the numbers that they want to see, then that can potentially affect how much money comes in. I see people on social media that will ask, is this place a no kill? Because if it's not no kill, I'm not going to surrender or I'm not going to support them. And they don't understand, you know, somebody will say, yeah, it's not a no kill because they say it's no kill, but I took a kitten with a respiratory infection and they euthanized it. And they don't, they don't get it. Like they may be getting 500 animals. It can euthanize 50, and there's still no kill. 50 animals, that's a huge number. I mean, 10%, people don't understand that's 1 out of every 10 animals. can be euthanized, and it's still considered no kill. So I think that, you know, the, the percentage, 10 percent sounds really low, but if we look at it, it's actually not that small a number.

Right, it's not necessarily that small a number, but I also, just to, to address what you said about these small shelters that, you know, depend on donations, I mean, so, okay, I mean, but, but there's no, There's no harm in being honest, you know, sometimes transparency is the answer, you know, yes, we are, maybe our rates. First of all, I don't think that any, you know, reputable shelters should subscribe to this. Percentage stuff. I just feel as if that that does put you in a box where you have to comply with an arbitrary number that frankly puts animals in danger. It just puts animals in danger because you somehow put a roof on what you can do. And that's, you know, for those animals that then don't get your help. That could be a matter of life and death, and those animals can die, maybe not at your shelter, but they suffered and died, probably badly, and you got to not claim them on your numbers but You didn't help them. And to me, that's, I mean, that's just not the way that I would do things. You know, I think that if I were to choose, um, to be limited admission, I would be extremely transparent and supportive of the shelter in the community that was open admission. And I've seen shelters do that where they say, you know, we can't take every single animal that comes to us because we are a nonprofit with limited resources. But the municipal shelter is across the way. They're open admission and they will take your animal, you know, and I think that there has to be an open admission shelter in every community or animals suffer the consequences. They get dumped outside, they get chained up, they get penned, they get neglected. And so I think putting ourselves in this box of compliance with this arbitrary made up number, you know, um, that really at the end of the day is meaningless because it does permit. You know, a certain amount of euthanasia, uh, is, is damaging. But I also think sometimes if you have committed to something and you didn't meet your goal and you have donors who are questioning you, tell them the stories. Each individual animal has a story, you know, and sometimes euthanasia is the kindest thing that you can do for them, you know, and, and that's. That's part of the truth that I think is really important for donors to hear, you know. I mean, our shelter is not a secret. We, we are very open about our policies and our donors know what our policies are and those things, you know, and those animal stories are told. We tell them on our website, we tell them in our quarterly reports. If we have to euthanize animals for, you know, for reasons that are Educational. We want people to know, I think that hiding things from the public is making the public believe that they, they don't have to change anything that spaying and neutering is not an urgent essential service when it is, it is the single most important thing that we can do for our animals and for. Any animal, your neighbor's animal, your friend's animals, spaying and neutering is the answer. It's prevention, but it's gotten lost in this mix of focusing on the end, you know, where the animals are, the shelter. Well, why are so many animals coming to the shelter? That's the question we should be collaborating on. How do you not? How do you prevent animals from coming into the shelter by closing your doors? But how to prevent so many animals from needing sheltering services? To me, that's the question. Not. You know, to, to make euthanasia the, you know, ending euthanasia is, is a, it's certainly a goal, but we get there by ending the influx of unwanted and abandoned animals who are homeless and were born to animal, you know, just because people didn't make an appointment or didn't bother to make an appointment or just didn't prioritize sterilizing their animals. The question is, why are they here to begin with? They're not wanted. They need help. If the shelter closes its doors and just focuses on the animals that they allowed in, you don't get the whole story anyway. You know, the, what happened to all those animals that you didn't take in? That, I think, the public isn't even informed enough to ask that question. And with the way things are going now, where you're seeing, you know, media article after media article about no kill policies going wrong. Look at Austin, Texas, Atlanta, Georgia, DeKalb, Georgia, Los Angeles. You know, animals being warehoused, dangerous dogs biting volunteers and still being placed. Animals being returned. Animals going crazy in their cages. Spinning and throwing themselves, you know, from one wall to another, you know, all of that is just a consequence of just focusing on so called save rates instead of individual animal welfare and what every single animal deserves.

I worry about there are, there is for sure at least one, uh, large county facility here in Columbus that is supposed to be open intake and they're not right. They try to, and I think that sometimes, you know, as you said at the beginning, when somebody says I need to surrender my animal, it is okay to say, why, why do you need to surrender this animal? Because they may say, They may say, my dog has this ongoing problem, chronic problem, I cannot afford it, I can't take care of it, and I need it to be taken care of, so as much as it pains me, I need to give it to somebody who can do it. And at that point, the shelter can intercede and say, hey, we have this fund, we have this group, we have this shelter, we have whatever resources to help you keep your animal. And if that person is willing to put in the time and effort, Yes, let's keep that animal with that person who cares so much that they were doing something as difficult as parting with them because they wanted them to have a better life, but we see people that are lying at the shelters saying I found this stray because they know that if they come in and say I want to surrender this dog because I can't have it for whatever reason, then they're going to tell them no, whether it be like, okay. I'm being evicted and I can't have my dog and I don't know where to go and I don't have where to take it and the shelter is like, oh, well, we can take it in three weeks. Yeah, but I'm getting evicted tomorrow. So I don't have three weeks. And so then they'll go somewhere else to another county and say, Hey, I just found this dog is a stray and and dump it or worse yet, abandon them. Right, because there are so many people that will just go to the shelter, the shelter says no, they'll either leave it at the door of the shelter, or worse yet, these boxes of puppies that are found, uh, like, either in the water, like people will just throw them down to get drowned, or leave them in the middle of nowhere, in a, you know, just in the woods, where they have no resources to die a horrible death, like there are, Serious consequences to your point, you know, yeah, you're not counting those animals as being euthanized by your shelter because you never took them into your numbers, but you are responsible for those animals that died because you didn't allow them somewhere somewhere to go.

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean, you know, it can mean that you help facilitate somebody else taking them maybe, but I do think that that, you know, we are seeing so many animals not accepted into animal shelters and turned away and, you know, nobody knows what happens. There's no tracking mechanism. There's no, uh, statistics tracking of that. And that's, you know, to me, that's, You know, that's what, that's a huge question mark, you know, what happens to those animals that you don't take in? You can report to your donors on the animals you take in and that's fine. But there, there's, right now anyway, especially with cats. I mean, we are seeing cats, basically shelters saying, we're not going to take cats anymore. You know, we're not taking, and that's, you know, in Virginia, um, municipalities have to have a facility for dogs, but not for cats. So there are jurisdictions. Where you call, especially rural jurisdictions, um, and they just say, we don't do cats, you know, and that's, you know, what does that mean for the cats, you know, and that's, that's a matter of resources in a lot of situations, but in situations where, um, taxpayers want to serve cats and the local shelter makes a decision based on, you know, Basically statistics just to keep statistics appealing, um, that might make donors happy, but it doesn't help animals and that's, I think to me, that's the most outrageous thing is that especially as our shelter, which is sometimes under fire for our percentages because we do euthanize, first of all, we euthanize as a service, but we also do euthanize take feral cats. So our rates don't look the same as a, as a shelter that focuses on taking adoptable animals on Lee. And so when we take in animals from our local municipal shelter, people who call us from their parking lot with an aggressive dog. And saying, you know, this dog broke my arm last year. And, uh, actually, the dog I'm thinking of was actually adopted from another municipal shelter, which told me that at the time of adoption didn't exhibit any aggressive tendencies. And I don't have any reason to disbelieve that. But that dog came to PETA for euthanasia very You know, aggressive animal, you know, and, um, what would have happened to that dog if PETA were not there for the person to call, you know, that's what always gets me because we're in a, you know, we're in Virginia, we're in Norfolk, Virginia, and You know, what happens if we were in somewhere, Ohio, where, you know, I'm sure that the same amount of calls and the same kind of calls would come in. So I think the message to the public is that we, you know, having an open, true open admission, because I know that there are a lot of places that say, well, we're open admission, but that's not true because they have a wait list. They have an appointment based system. They have, uh, admission fees that. People either don't want to afford or can't afford. You have the situation with people, you know, the housing crisis, people getting evicted, or people who have hidden their animals up until now can no longer hide them or what have you. Um, and so I think that if you're, if you're open admission, To me, that is, you're actually taking in the animals who come to you. It's not, yes, in three weeks and 50 later, I can take your dog. Well, I don't have three weeks and I don't have 50. Yes, that person is not as responsible as we would like them to be, but that's why we exist, right? Because it's not the dog's fault or the cat's fault that they're not responsible. So I think for the public. It's really important to educate themselves on what, you know, dig deeper, what the policies are. And most certainly if you have the time to make an appointment, that's fine. But in my experience, most people who show up, they're not really inclined to come back in three weeks or six months or whatever the case may be.

And the spay neuter problem is a huge issue, and now we're seeing some, some places saying that they're going to eliminate the requirements for spay neuter before adoption, which completely baffles me. Like, we spent years and years and years trying to get shelters to spay and neuter before adoption so that they would not be contributing to their own problem, and now because there's no resources, instead of saying, How do we increase the resources? Well, let's forget about the resources. Let's just release the animals because we need them adopted, right? We don't, we can't hold on to them. And then what are we doing? We're releasing these animals. Unsterilized so that then they can come back with the with the same problems and when I started the the rascal unit It was because I have kind of like a problem solver mentality, right? So I see a problem and it's like what's the root of the problem? I don't like to put band aids at the end. I like to kind of like stop the stop the bleeding at the beginning So I saw when I was working with a regular veterinary clinic that did a lot of rescue work that most of these animals were coming from rural Ohio because there were no resources, and then the shelters in rural Ohio didn't were not able to take care of these animals so then they were ending Columbus. So that's when my idea came up 17 years ago, I'm going to get a truck and I'm going to go to rural Ohio and I'm going to fix their animals over there right so that They, so they take care of their own problem, and then we are not overwhelming and oversaturating the places in Columbus. And it took a while for people to buy into the importance of it, but now, you know, we shouted it at everybody, spay and neuter your pets, and people listened. Like, how hard is it for people to listen to, to certain things, but people listen, and now people are like, we need it, we want it, we, we want to take care of our animals, and then we turn around and say, Sike, we don't have the, the resources for you, we don't care, like the shelter doesn't, doesn't care, whatever, we're kind of like taking a step backwards, and it is, and it is such a, I don't know, a huge detriment to animals and to shelters and to the problem of overpopulation, we're, we're making, instead of looking for solutions to make, To, to fix the problem. We're literally working to make the problem worse.

I could not agree with you more. I mean, we're literally, we're breeding animals. I mean, that's what, you know, when you turn a cat away, who's fertile and you put them back on the street, regardless of whether they're fed or not, they're making more cats. And when you, you know, when you're You're not prioritizing spaying or neutering the animals that you place in homes. You're making more cats. You're making more dogs. I mean, that's, there's really no two ways about it. And it's just, it actually means that the shelters that are, you know, supposed to be dedicated to Solving this problem, you know, not just putting a band aid on it, as you say, are, are, as you say, I mean, we are, it's a detriment. It's to the detriment of animals. We're actually, we worked so hard, you know, we worked so hard to, you know, get, get the message out there and educate people. And now it's like, well, There's a shortage, so don't worry about it, you know, but there are, there are other ways to, to solve this problem. And so we're with you. I mean, we have four spay, neuter clinics, they're mobile, they go into impoverished or low income areas and people come from other states, even over the border to, to use our clinics. And that, I mean, I wish every community had a low cost spay neuter and other vet services clinic, but spay neuter is our focus. And I cannot emphasize spay neuter enough. I mean, spay neuter is, is the answer in, through prevention, is that you're preventing these animals from being born into a world that's bursting at the seams with unwanted ones, ones who are already neglected, abused, discarded, abandoned, homeless. Struggling to survive on the streets and now with the shelter policies being such a, you know, such a hot topic and the no kill policies that have been so detrimental and we are seeing some pushback on the no kill policies. We're seeing a bit of a tide there where, you know, um, you know, jurisdictions are understanding. Uh, there was an article recently in DeKalb, Georgia that, you know, the county manager, I think they call him a CEO there. You know, it's talking about rescinding the no kill policies and of course, because so many people don't even know what that actually means in practical terms, there's pushback, but the condition that the shelter are so poor that the Department of Agriculture in Georgia has repeatedly inspected and cited the shelter. There's actually an oversight body in Georgia and in Virginia, there is too, thankfully. So a lot of, you know, one of the other things. Most people don't realize is that most states don't have a, uh, a body that oversees shelters. And so really they self police. And so when you have, you know, animals stuffed in the bathroom or dangerous dogs in crates or, you know, animals in crates and not being walked on a regular basis. I mean, a crate should not be, uh, you know, treated as a kennel. I mean, a crate is a super temporary place. To use, you know, for an animal upon intake, but no animal should spend days or weeks or months or years in a crate. I mean, imagine just sitting in a closet for the rest of your life. You know, that's cruelty. To me, that's cruelty to animals. You know, you are depriving that animal of basic necessities of life, but also of joy and stimulation and the opportunity to, you know, do anything. You know, you're basically storing them. They may be alive, but they're not living.

And we see pictures of, like, the animal hoarders, and then, you know, many of these animals are kept in small cages. We look at puppy mills. These animals are living in crates, in cages, and we think that that is horrible, and we think that there needs to be better laws to protect and to prevent that from happening. And then we turn around as rescues and shelters and say, well, we have three more dogs today, and we have nowhere for them to go, so we're just going to go and make three small crates and have them live in the same conditions that we may have even rescued them from. Yeah, you know, they may have been cases like neglect cases. And then we take them out of one neglect case into another neglect case. I really tried. Yeah, I hate when people say I rescued it from this bad situation. And then we say, Okay, well, these are the things that it needs. Oh, well, I can't do any of that. Well, you didn't rescue it. You just moved it from one crappy situation to another crappy situation. Like we have to be a Are we, are we truly helping them or are we self serving and helping our ego by saying I rescued it, right? Because we love to say, yeah, we love to say, I rescued this, I saved this, I insert, you know, grandeurship word here. But are we actually doing what we are saying that we're doing? You know, people to me will say, how many cats do you have? I have two cats. Oh, you can have more. No, but I can't. Right? Because I have two cats because this is what I choose to do. Right. There are, there are many animals that I see out there that I could potentially give them a, a great home, but could I? Do I have the time? Do I have the, you know, am I, am I really helping them? And then am I doing it because I want to bring a new animal into my home, or I just want to say I helped it, or I rescued it?

Yeah, and I think, I think there's, you know, it bears repeating that one of the things that we are seeing as a result of these no kill policies is, is animals who are not safe for placement, uh, being placed in homes. And even though the, the facility knows of a bite history, and I, that is. Um, that, that there's no excuse for that. I mean, I, you know, behavior euthanasia is a tough issue. And you talked earlier a little bit, um, when we were offline about veterinarians refusing to euthanize animals for aggression. And we do see that with our shelter. We do euthanize dogs for aggression when they've been turned away from other shelters or veterinarians who, you know, you know, for whatever reason, they just choose not to do it. Um, it's not easy to, to do that, obviously. But I, I. I want people to remember that when an animal is aggressive, that animal is anxious, insecure, unhappy, afraid. A lot of times it's fear based aggression and you're not doing that animal a favor. Um, if you have exhausted your resources and, and ideas and time, and you're not in a position to try to work with that animal, just, putting that animal in somebody else's lap is, is really not doing that animal a favor. You know, animals are individuals just like us. And I think most people don't, you know, I, they don't, just because animals adapt and overcome and live in the present doesn't mean that they don't experience stress when they're separated from their families. And, you know, I see people, you know, do things that are just thoughtless that cause their animals psychological distress. They're not being. malicious, but they're not being thoughtful either, you know, and I think it's important for people to realize that, you know, animals who are elderly, for example, or have health issues that are difficult or behavior issues that are difficult for their original guardian to deal with, are not going to adapt well to a transition where they have to adapt to a whole new person who may be less committed to solving what their problem is. So I think in in aggression cases, euthanasia is It's sometimes the most humane option for that animal, not just for the humans as well. And certainly we, as a, as a community, an animal sheltering community, when we put dangerous animals into our communities, we are discouraging people from adopting from shelters because people then think, and I'm not saying that that's my opinion, but. People perceive certain dogs, you know, as having quote unquote issues or problems or they're defective. And I hate when people say that because it's not the animal's fault. And sometimes it's a very simple thing that the animal just hasn't been afforded. But sometimes it's truly dangerous. And that animal could kill another animal or could kill a child or seriously harm a child or adult. And. By releasing animals like that for adoption, we are not building trust in our communities. We are telling our communities that the animals we place in homes are dangerous, and then those people, the next dog they get is going to be from a breeder or a pet store. And, you know, as someone who has spent... You know, their lives trying to combat homelessness and overpopulation. I take very literally that if you buy one dog from a pet store or a breeder, you are depriving an animal in a shelter of an opportunity to find a home. And it's, it's really that simple. You know, I, I take that very personally to this day. I mean, I. You know, I don't rejoice when I see a purebred puppy in the dog park. I don't rejoice when I see a litter of puppies. To me, that means that some animals at a shelter somewhere are losing their chance. Um, or, not in the shelter, an animal anywhere. You know, because shelters are closing their doors more and more, but we have so many wonderful, wonderful animals who need homes and I would just really encourage people to not buy. Every breed rescue has, you can get any breed you want from a rescue. you any species, any breed. So I think there should be a moratorium on breeding and selling and that people should be educated about the truth of overpopulation and homelessness, not being made to feel better with, you know, fictional percentages.

I have a huge issue with like breed specific legislation, right? I don't think that animals should be categorized as a whole. I think that each individual animal needs to be looked at. But when we, as you said, when we adopt out a particular dog of a breed that people think can be dangerous, and we know that that dog has a propensity for injury, and we just work with it to kind of work around its triggers, but then we release it and Basically make a irresponsible, uninformed decision and that animal does cause harm. What are we doing? We are feeding into the, into the beliefs of the people that want the breed specific legislations. We are telling them, you know what? You were right. You said this dog should not be adopted and we adopted it anyway and now it mauled somebody. And, you know, we, we are In that sense, also causing our own problems.

And, and look, I mean, no one can deny that there are certain breeds who are populating shelters more than others. And I mean, to me, I don't think that requiring, starting by requiring that certain breeds be sterilized. I mean, some people would call that breed specific legislation and maybe have a problem, but. I mean, we do pit bulls for free on our spay neuter clinics because those are the dogs we see in the field as most frequently chained, penned, neglected. Beaten, yelled at, abused, I, you know, I, we did not create the problem, we did not breed those dogs, but we recognize that those dogs are, if you look at our local shelters, I'm not going to put a percentage on it because it won't be accurate, but the majority of the dogs are of bully breeds, and so I, I don't see a big problem with legislating to get them fixed, or to require people to be of a certain age to have one, or to, you know, I, I think that that's, That's, that's trying to fix the problem, but I, I do think that there's, now we've gone all the, to the other opposite way where it's like, no, no, it's not the breed. It's not the breed here. Have one, have two, have three. And you know, some animals are not behaviorally sound. You know, and for them, euthanasia is a humane option. You know, you're not harming them. You are keeping them safe, and you are keeping the community safe. And I do think that there is a huge, huge, uh, perception problem with dogs in shelters when, when somebody reads in an article about a child whose nose was bitten off by an animal adopted from a shelter. That person isn't going to adopt an animal from a shelter. We are doing damage. We're hurting our own cause, as you say. So we're, you know, by not recognizing, you know, I hate to see people in denial about, I mean, Certain breeds can do more harm than other breeds. That's just a fact. It's not condemning the breed. It's simply saying, you know, that dog, you know, maybe if they do attack, maybe they'll do more damage than another dog. I, I, I just, I feel like, you know, we we've gotten to a point that some of the things that animal shelters are doing are not sensible, you know, um, and I'm not, not just talking about the turn away. Policies or the, you know, the barriers to intake, but the placement choices just to keep adoption rates high and the clear the shelters and let's celebrate an empty kennel, well, I don't know where those animals went. I, my brain always goes to, well, are they in good homes or are they just like. You know, I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but realistically speaking, as someone who worked at a shelter, you know, animals get returned all the time. Just because they left doesn't mean they're not coming back, and it certainly doesn't mean they're going to stay in that home forever. Even when you screen, even when you charge money, even when you do a landlord check or a vet check, you still have You know bad adoptions and that happens, but I think the shelter's job is to try to make sure that it doesn't and I've seen over my last couple decades I've really seen shelters relax the adoption, you know, oh, we don't do landlord checks anymore because people lie. Oh, okay. I mean, called due diligence. We have to do, but you know, I don't want to go to sleep at night thinking that maybe I put an animal in a bad situation, you know. And I think, I think there's just a whole movement focused on keeping animals out of shelters, whether it's by putting them out of the door to anyone who'll take them or just not accepting them, you know, but we've gotten to a point where euthanasia. Which used to be treated as it should as a very sad byproduct of the overpopulation crisis, something we can stop if we work together, something we can stop if we spay or neuter and focus on prevention, we have abandoned that sensible line of thinking and we're going towards, you know, essentially regressing and making more animals, placing animals who are not placeable in unsuspecting people's homes, decreasing the number of people who are going to come to our shelters, increasing the number of animals who need, you know, who need to be surrendered and decreasing the number of animals who are taken in by the shelter. So I hope that change is coming. I think that some of these no kill failures and the things that we are seeing across the country, um, Will instruct public officials elected officials to make some changes and it's may not be popular, but it's necessary

Yeah, the Another thing that these rescues are not realizing is kind of like the liability that they get into right because they they are ultimately liable If they are adopting an animal that that causes an injury especially the the people that say good with kids Are, are they good with kids? You know, like you're putting, you're putting all this information into there and currently there, there are some lawsuits out there against rescues because of that, right? Can you tell us a bit about some of those?

Well, I don't, I don't know that I have any specific information about loss. I mean, I know that there are some, I didn't study those, um, You know, specifically, but I do know that there, there's, I know that there was an award. I think it was several million dollars to a volunteer in Los Angeles who was attacked by a dog. She went to walk and the dog had been at the shelter at the Los Angeles, uh, one of the Los Angeles city shelters for several months and did some permanent damage to her arm and, uh, eventually was euthanized, you know, anyway, so I, I mean, uh, just because the dog was being held. Uh, did not mean that he was quote unquote saved, but, um, but yeah, I know that she sued the city and I think the city awarded her I something like $7 million is what comes to mind. But, um, I, I think, yes, there are liability issues. It's not just that you get sued. I mean, you know, lawsuits are time consuming. They're expensive. They take you away from your mission, you know, and I, I just think, to me, the simplest answer is the truth. You know, if an animal has a bite history, tell the person, I mean, if it's a Chihuahua, it's a whole different story than if it's a Rottweiler, you know, and so you want to, I mean, you want to be transparent and you want to be truthful, you know, sometimes you might have people who are willing to work with a small dog who has some, you know, anxiety related issues. But I think That honesty is the best policy, not to sound cliche, but I think when we mask things and don't tell people things and they're surprised, yes, they are more likely to sue you. And for good reason, you know, because you were dishonest because you didn't tell them, uh, you know, that an animal, Could, had the potential to harm or kill you. We had a case in Virginia Beach, Virginia, a few years ago. The dog was a pit bull type dog and he was, you know, was one of those poor dogs who was homeless for a long time and just bounced around from so called rescue to so called rescue. He ended up with a place called, uh, I believe Forever Home in Virginia Beach, where they were also discovered to use shock collars on, on their dogs. And he was adopted to a woman who had a 90 year old mother who lived with her. And the day after he was adopted by this woman, he attacked and ultimately killed her 90 some year old mother who died in the hospital. Uh, and he still had the shock collar on when he was placed in their home. And I, I don't know that they are suing. I haven't heard that they are suing, but, uh, I wouldn't be surprised if they choose to. But what a, what a... What a, what a terrible life changing trauma to go through to, to go through something like this. I mean, we talk about it, but you know, if you think about what that must be like is to watch a dog, you know, attack and not let go of your elderly mom. I, I, I can't even go there in my brain of how, you know, life. altering an experience that would be, and that dog should never have been placed, you know? So after that, the dog was euthanized, you know? Well, we could have spared the dog and the people some suffering, and I think liability is one thing that, um, facilities don't consider enough, but it is a real thing, and certainly for municipalities as well.

Yeah, and when there's so many animals that are healthy, mentally and physically, sitting in shelters for months and months and months and years, not finding a home, it just begs the question of why some of these animals that are not safe are being adopted out, you know, there, there really is, I feel that if we were in a world with never ending resources, then perhaps we can spend more time working on some of these animals. But in the end, can we truly bring some of these animals back? Um, I did an episode on behavioral euthanasia where a very good owner had to euthanize two dogs in different occasions because of aggression. And she went to a behaviorist and she did all the things that she needed to do. And her whole family worked with this dog and they loved this dog immensely. And the behaviorist was the one that said, You have done everything that you can, and unfortunately, for lack of a better term, his brain is broken. He is in a constant state of suffering and you have to let him go. And she did. And it was

Kudos to that behaviorist for being Yeah, the bear of really sad news. But that's important. It's so important for them to tell the truth because you're sparing, you know, that dog. I mean, and seeing it from the dog's point of view, the dog is in a constant state of suffering. We had a dog that we tried to work with who came from a cruelty case that I loved very, very, very much. And um. We did go to a behaviorist with her, and she said, and I mean, this was a PETA dog, not my personal dog, and the behaviorist said, you know, she's afraid. She's afraid all the time. She's in a constant state of fear. The dog was afraid to go outside, you know, um, she was a big dog. So, you know, what do you, what do you do? You know, you, sometimes, yeah, sometimes you cannot reverse it, and it's hard to accept. But I think, um. Well, I, you know, I, I'll listen to that episode. I'm, I'm, I know that a lot of people go through that and it's very, very painful. It, it must be very painful. So, but it's good that the behaviorist told her the truth because that, that decision is hard, but it needed to be made for all the humane reasons.

Yeah, it definitely, you know, they felt safe with the dog to a certain point, but they did not feel that anybody else was safe. Like this dog was, again, in a constant state of suffering. And, and one of the sad parts is that before going to the behaviorist, they went to their regular vet and their regular vet would not help them. The regular vet was like, well, there's medications. There's You know, things that you can do. There's behavioral modifications. Well, can you help me with this? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not a behaviorist. I can't help you with this. But you can go and find somewhere to do it. And, you know, it, it keeps these people without options and without a humane option.

And in a state of some kind of false hope or something, too.

No, exactly. And then it also increases the guilt that they have because they are at that point where they want to help their, their dog and they have somebody saying, no, if you euthanize, then you're this horrible person. You're just using that word. You're killing your dog. You're not giving him a chance. And, you know, yeah, I, I really, I always recommend people to, to go to the behaviorists at the university because They're not there to euthanize things. I mean, if they were going to do that, they, they wouldn't have a job, right? Right. They want to work with all these animals, but they are very realistic in expectations and they need to help the, the owners and they need to help the, the animals.

Yeah, and and just a word of caution to people, of course, look for a credentialed behaviorist like at a university, you know, because any anybody can say they're a dog trainer. There's no regulations or licensing or anything. So you want to make sure that you're looking for someone who actually has the education and credentials that can assist you.

Yeah, I tell people that if your, your pet is afraid, is fearful, and somebody comes at you with a shock collar, run the other way, right? Because the worst thing that we can do to an animal that's afraid is make it afraid, more afraid. And eventually you go from being afraid to fear aggression. So every time you shock them, you are increasing the risk that that animal is going to actually break through. You know, you have fight or flight. So they fly it enough, eventually they're going to fight. So just, you know, yeah, working with somebody that, that, that is properly trained for that kind of behavior.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Gosh, fear. I mean, fear is such, you know, I mean, just put yourself in there. place to, I mean, you know, when you're afraid of something, do you want to get electrically shocked? I mean, it just, it, you know, it just doesn't make any sense, you know, to, to terrify or punish an animal for a behavior that they're doing for their own reasons. Even if humans don't understand those behaviors, they, they, they have a reason. We just don't know what it is. So look for someone who has the background and the education to try to understand what it is at least.

So, thank you very much for being part of this interview. I hope that the people listening at least leave with an understanding of what the terms are, and are less judgmental of shelters and humane groups and human organizations that are doing that and start trying to push animals to go from one place to another, not knowing if they may be taking them to a rescue hoarder, you know, make sure that you're working with legitimate rescues and that you're doing things in the best interest of the animals because that's ultimately what we're here for. Um, so, uh, if people want to, want to find information about the, the no kill movement and the issues that are happening with the no kill movement, how can they get information from your organization?

Oh, sure. Yeah. If you guys just want to come to PETA. org and just put it in the keyword search, there's a lot of information on our website. We have, uh, information on, you know, busts of hoarder rescues and, uh, incidents involving Facilities that, um, use no kill policies and we have a blog about, you know, we certainly about the, the divisive term that no kill and, uh, just, you know, where we are in, in our, in what the state of affairs is today and what you can do to help change it and what makes a good shelter and just the basic terms, and so I invite you all to come and visit with us at PETA.Org.

Fantastic. Well, thank you very much again for joining us and to everybody that's out there do what's right and thank you for listening and thank you for caring.