A few months ago, I did several podcasts that I called Conversations With My Kids. I talked to my daughters, my daughter-in-law, my son-in-law, and they shared insights on a variety of topics. And today I'm going to share another conversation that I hope will be helpful to you. These conversations are meant to help you understand how some young adults are thinking and the young adults in your life May not be thinking the same way as the people I talk to in these conversations. But I do hope that these conversations can be a springboard for you and for the conversations that you have with young adults in your life. I actually put this podcast up earlier this week, and then I made some changes to it. And we're gonna do a part two with Ben because I still have some more questions So if you have any questions for Ben, you can email me and I can share those with him in my part two. My email is in the show notes. Welcome to Midlife with Brooke. I am your host, Brooke Oniki. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, a wife, mother, grandma, and a certified life coach. On this podcast, we talk about all things mothering, health and emotional wellbeing. I share practical tools and examples from my life and from the lives of my clients to help you navigate this new season of midlife. It can feel tricky and confusing and a little bit out of our comfort zone as our children grow up and they don't really need us in the same way. These concepts and principles have changed my life and I've watched them change the lives of my clients, and I hope that they can be helpful if there are things that you wanna change in your life. So let's get started.

Hello and welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to be here today with Ben Austin. He's not my nephew, although that's kind of what I think of him as. He is my cousin's son and he's a good friend of my children and in that same age range. And so at Thanksgiving we were in North Carolina and I had a conversation with Ben about different ideas of things that young adults could talk about on the podcast. And he had a topic that he's passionate about. And so we're gonna talk about it today. We're gonna talk about patriarchy in the church, and. How young adults may view it differently than we as older people view it. the goal of this conversation is to help you have more conversations with your children or your spouse or other people who may have experienced the church a little differently than you have. the purpose isn't to bash on the church. I just wanna be super clear about that. we wanna talk about it in constructive ways that can help us see how we can help people feel more seen and heard and understood at church. So I would love to turn the time over to you, Ben, so that you can introduce yourself and then maybe just start out sharing your story with us, kind of your experience in the church.

Thank you, Brooke, for having me on your podcast. Yes. I definitely think of you as an aunt. I often struggle to describe to my friends, who I'm talking about when I'm talking about Brooke because I know that she's actually my mom's cousin, but actually she's played the role of an aunt in my life so it's really great to be here and I've been able to listen to some of the podcast episodes, prior to this one. And as a young person in the church, it's a good way for me to hear how my peers are thinking, and how my peers are communicating with other generations. So, speaking of my own experience growing up in the church and where I'm at now, I, I think the most distinctive, part of my upbringing in the church was, being a member of the church on the East coast in North Carolina. I grew up, my whole life in North Carolina was part of, a ward out here and, was really alone at my school or my friend groups as a member of the church. So I had a very different experience than, somebody who may have grown up with more members around. And that shaped a lot of my church experience and, Also gave me an interesting perspective on, I think being a part of a religious minority and also learning to kind of find my voice as a member of the church. So that background growing up in North Carolina ultimately led me to wanting to go to BYU for college because I wanted to experience what it might be like to be surrounded by a lot of church members. I went to BYU, served a mission in the Stockholm, Sweden mission for two years during COVID, which was also a fascinating experience. lots of ups and downs, but ultimately came away with a great and deep appreciation for Sweden and Swedish culture. and also the church members there, who like me growing up in North Carolina are. Very alone in their social groups and communities as members of the church. I ultimately came back to BYU, finished my degree. during that time after my mission, I had a lot of questions and I think before, my mission, I had a lot of questions about my faith and why I was choosing to follow it and why the people that I love were choosing and not choosing to follow it. and those questions amplified after my mission. As I, faced those questions for the first time seriously myself. And after my mission my three years at BYU, I spent a lot of time hiding from those questions because they were very difficult and I didn't feel like I. I had the right people around me to talk about them and, I think I was just distracted by trying to get my degree done, trying to live life. and I lost touch with, some of my spiritual side that I felt that it developed on my mission and growing up, in here in North Carolina with a, a really robust group of, of spiritual thinkers in my ward. the area I live in has a lot of universities, so University of North Carolina, duke University, North Carolina State University, and, those sorts of people were in my ward and always kind of challenged me to, to, to think broadly about my spirituality and not having them around physically or being physically proximate with, Really challenged me, even though I was surrounded by young people and church members in general. I sort of lost touch. and in losing touch, I, I lost interest. And it wasn't until I moved back to North Carolina after my undergraduate degree that I realized there was a a lot missing from my life. and there were a lot of questions that I still had that I hadn't fully explored or given time to. And, over being home for now, this is my second year being back in North Carolina, I've, I decided to make the church more important part of my life. I am currently in a young adult congregation out here and, serving in the elders quorum presidency in that congregation, and giving a lot more of my time to the church and, to the broader faith community here. so I'm kind of at a point where I still have a lot of those questions that drove me away from the church initially. Questions about, church history the way the church is structured, the way that, the church tells us to think about certain things. those questions are still largely there, but in, in being away from the church for, a couple of years and coming back, the The feelings that I have now and being active in the church are, are ones of belonging and ones where I feel, like there's a role for me to play, and that there's space for those questions. And an important part of that was being back in North Carolina where I feel that the church members also are more open about talking about the questions that I have than when I was in Utah. So I'm kind of at that point now, I still have so many questions and I don't anticipate finding full answers, necessarily anytime soon, if at all. but I. I'm committed to the values of loving one another and serving one another and trying to, emulate the example of Jesus Christ in our lives. And I haven't found a, a better way to live yet. And that's why I'm, I'm back and sticking to it.

I love that. I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. It doesn't mean that you've answered all the questions, but you're in a place where you can talk about 'em and, and work through them I love what you had to share. So when I talked to you in North Carolina and I asked you what topic you would wanna talk about, you said I'd wanna talk about patriarchy. So explain why that is, is a topic that you feel passionate about.

Patriarchy as I would define it, I'm gonna define it really simply for this conversation. is essentially a power structure where most of the important decisions are made by men. and as a member of the church, I think it's pretty, at least from the surface level, pretty obvious that the patriarchy in the church is very strong and very structured. and a lot of formal power, seems to be in the hands of men.

We have,

a church president who's always a man. The prophet's always a man. The bishops are always a man. The state president's always a man. There's a lot of man with a lot of power. And as a man, it, it's definitely something that sat. A little bit funny with me because I grew up in a, in a family that really is filled with powerful and incredibly smart and capable women. one of those women being you, Brooke, who I look up to. and I wondered from a young age why these women were not, in the power structure in the same ways, in these roles in the same ways. And it's a question that I've had for a long time. So as I think about patriarchy, I think about the church as a whole, and these structures. and then from that basic definition of a power structure where decisions are made largely, or these important decisions are made by men, it seeps into other things, sort of a social question. What are these individual interactions or group interactions that you might feel every day or every Sunday at church or your calling where you encounter, patriarchy, and what, are the positive. Ways that patriarchy can enforce, important relationships between genders. there's a lot of questions there, but I wanted to start with a, a basic definition because I felt like it would be really interesting conversation to have with you, Brooke. And full disclaimer, I am a man. so I wanna have, have this be more of a conversation if I can because I obviously cannot speak in any capacity for the experience of women, of the patriarchy in the church. So I hope that you'll share some of your experiences during this podcast too.

Yes, so I think as far as my experience, I have been surrounded by a lot of really good men. I had a dad who just really loved my mother. and was very respectful to her and also treated us like we were super smart and capable. I just never remember thinking like I couldn't do something. And so I didn't ever grow up feeling like this structure was holding me back. Like it just didn't really happen that way. And I have also had a lot of leadership callings in the church, and I've worked for the most part with very respectful men as well. And so I feel like I come with my like ideas or the problems that I see, and I have felt very heard. I've felt like I can do whatever I wanna do. I just explain what it is that I'm gonna do. And, and so I personally have not had a. What I feel to be negative experiences with patriarchy. But I know other women who haven't felt that way, who have felt like they're undermined or, I think in different organizations that you work in, like, you know, in primary maybe we, we ask for people and we're not allowed to have them or the ones that are predominantly female organizations that sometimes they don't get as much say so, even though my experience has been really good, I, I realize that it's not that way for all women. And I realize that all marriages aren't like that. Right. I'm also married to someone who has. Been very respectful to my opinions and ideas and needs. And so I feel like because I've been surrounded by men who treated me like an equal, that has helped my experience be far more favorable.

Right. And it, it definitely feels like we're hitting on an age old question here. Men and women, how are they different? How are they interact? and I think inside and outside of the church, it catches a lot of attention because it is focusing in and inherently encapsulates probably the most important human relationships there are in the world. You know, just aside from any romantic undertones, relationship between men and women are essential to our society. so I take that into perspective when I'm thinking about patriarchy. 'cause there really is so many different experiences with it and everybody experiences it some way. So, I really appreciate you sharing your experience of having a good experience because I've heard a lot from both as well. and I, I wanna make sure that point comes across during this conversation where there's maybe not necessarily like there's a problem and a solution here, but there's definitely a huge conversation to be had.

I think some situations I just gloss over or haven't really thought about because it's just always been the way. But, I remember Allie telling me that she felt like the elders in the mission did all the trainings and they often taught how to do missionary work from a more bro perspective. And she was serving in Japan. So the, the way that men interact in Japan is very different than the way women interact. And so, being trained by elders to be a missionary and do these certain tactics that were successful for them, weren't necessarily the things that Sister missionaries would choose to do. And so sometimes it felt like they had their way and then no one ever really discussed the differences between a way sister missionaries would serve versus the way elders would serve. And she felt like sometimes when they would make comments about those things, that their comments were not valued as much as the ones from elders.

Yeah. that's a really about her experiences and we've exchanged. Yeah, I mean, I think also we have young men who are learning how their role in the church is supposed to be, and that comes with a lot of stumbling. And, we don't necessarily get a lot of, direction about how to behave, like a, a good man per se. As some the men or as you mentioned before, you kind of just figure it out. yeah, you're given the gospel. Yes, you're given this, religious education, but there's, in my experience, there hasn't been a whole lot that, you know, there's no lesson at the MTC teaching you how to work with your sisters better and respect their values and their boundaries and their experience and maybe their different skillset, that wasn't there.

Yeah.

So I can totally see the value in that and how that. Plays a has a huge impact on the lived experience of, of young people.

So, good.

So were there specific experiences that helped you put words to what you were feeling?

Yeah, I can start with the feelings that I have when I think about patriarchy in the church in general. I would say I, instantly, get a bit of anxiety when I think about it. I think it's uncomfortable for me, because it, it denotes a, a power imbalance between men and women in the church. And I don't want to be a part of a church that has a huge power imbalance between men and women, where one group feels like they're being taken advantage of by the other, where one group is being treated as less than the other. and this comes from central teachings of Jesus Christ about our human nature and our call to love one another and to, treat each other as brothers and sisters. And when I think of my siblings, I, I don't think of them as. Less than me. I'm sure there have been times where I probably have as, as an annoying older brother or annoying younger brother. but fundamentally, deep down inside, I, I know that they're my brothers and sisters and that I want to treat them with the love and with dignity and respect that they deserve. So it immediately becomes hard to think about, Why is it seem like so many men have all of the leadership positions, albeit not all, but the key leadership positions at the top were all men. and it becomes uncomfortably 'cause it feels like there's a bit of conflict there for me. and that's a big question that I have and then again, I also ask myself the same question. Well, I'm also a man thinking about the male experience, so it's more very important to me to think about how women might respond to this question as well. and then I get confused because there's been, like I said, no real discussion about it except for between me and maybe some of my friends or some people that I'm very close with inside the church, you don't really get a place to talk about that. and I think to highlight an experience, that goes along with that is on my mission actually. and I would say this is a positive experience, on my mission. I had a mission president who made a change to where they had, A sister's companionship who served in the office as well as an elder's companionship. So there were, I guess you would call them assistants. The elders would be assistants, and the sisters were assistants as well, for the whole mission. And I thought that was really interesting because there was a lot of pushback from the elders in the mission about it. because they felt that this was not something that, made sense or it just wasn't really happening in other missions. Or they're wondering why do we need to make this change? Wasn't going well already. but I found as I asked these elders or talked to them about how they felt, they really didn't have a good answer as to why they felt this way. They just kind of felt that, oh, well, on the mission you have. The elders are the assistants, and that's the way it is. And that's how my parents said it would be. And that's how my family and friends back home said it would be. but it was super cool to see how my mission president was just like, oh yeah, like let's make that change right now. And like it was a change that he could make. It wasn't some arbitrary rule that he couldn't have, but because he had that, revelation guiding him to make that position, we had an just really, I think, a much better, support system for the sisters in our mission because There was a pair of sisters that are able to talk to them for them directly with the president or the couple leading the mission. Instead of having to talk to the assistants who then talked to the president, you could talk to two other women instead of two teenage boys who may have not had any understanding of what your experience is. So that, it was cool to me, it impressed on me like, okay, things can work out and change and we can address these issues if people are willing to really. Find creative ways to do so. and I think after a little while of having these, I guess sister assistants, everybody in the mission felt good about the decision and felt that it was the right thing. And it was really important for us because during COVID, we stayed in Sweden and we didn't have to leave, but there was a lot. There wasn't any really training that was ready for us when COVID hit. It was a bit of a wild west situation. and out on top of that, being far away from home, already being in a foreign country and having all sorts of fear and anxiety about what was going on in the world, we really needed that extra leadership to support the missionaries during this time. So. I guess to tie that all together, I still think that when I think about patriarchy in the church, I'm confused and I know that there's more that we can do. it just feels like there's more roles that can open up or be to be played by women in the church. Like I experienced on my mission where this role came just basically was created out nowhere by our mission president and ended up being a huge resource to us. So my question is, okay, how, how do we start that conversation? How do we move forward and create the space for new possibilities, when it comes to leadership and decision making in the church? Now, I, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm just one person in the church and I don't have an and real, like an answer of how this should go. But I think that conversation. Really should be had. And It makes me excited to think about that conversation could be had because I think that sort of change is necessary for the future growth of the church and the future ability of the church to really provide meaning in this changing world.

Yeah, I remember Connor was telling me about a friend of his who was an executive secretary and their bishop. They went through the handbook to see which callings actually needed a priesthood holder to have that calling and found that there are some callings that they could change. And I can't even remember what they were. like, does Ward mission leader have to be male? Does everyone in the Sunday school presidency have to be male? Like there were some things like that. And I know some people will think that's like crazy, but that's just an interesting thing. So one of the things that doesn't have to be a priesthood holder is calling on people to say prayers in your family, right? my dad always did that, my husband always did that. But that's not a, a priesthood responsibility. And so Connor Mallory started having Mallory call on people to pray. And so then we started doing that at our house as well. I do think that there's some things that are just have been tradition for such a long time and. If someone decided, why couldn't we use some sisters in the office? Like that is a really brilliant decision.

Right? And they didn't, of course, like live in the office with all the elders. They had an apartment right in the same area, but they were functionally the same role as the assistants. but yeah, like you said, it's these kind of like ground level changes. Even that I think it's brilliant changing the person who's gonna pray in your home, like these are, like, it starts from the ground and you really like, I think that's one of the best ways, especially as a man. Like if you, if you're a man thinking about your role in the patriarchy and you want to increase, your awareness of it, look for those things and change them. That's something that I've seen my, my father do a lot and, and other men in my family, and I try to do it myself and I found it really valuable, because in my experience, woman will always step up and do a much better job probably, or an intentional job than any man you would assign it to, because they, they're more than capable.

I teach classes at the prison and I was out there a few weeks ago and there's an institute class that goes on at the same time in the building that I'm in, and there's a married couple that teach this institute class, and we were talking, and I've known them for a year and a half since I started working out there. But it came out that she's the one who teaches the institute class and he is her assistant. And I realized That was surprising to me because when you have a married couple, it just often seems like the man's, the teaching role or he's the authority on the scriptures or whatever. But she was like, yeah, I teach it and if I can't come, then he substitutes for me. But mostly he's just my assistant in the class. And that's not a priesthood responsibility to teach an institute class and she's the skilled teacher. And so that's how they decided as a couple, that they were gonna do their volunteer work.

Yeah, that I, I really appreciate that example. especially with, with teaching we have a few institute courses out here and it's been really cool to see, how our institute director has been open to having a lot of different kinds of people teach the institute classes themself. and I think that's been a great way for people to feel like they belong in the church because they have people who are, who are teaching from different backgrounds, and sharing their experiences. so I, I definitely put a lot of value on that. in also starting the conversation that we're having, by making space for, Everybody to have voices in both teaching space or in the spiritual space with giving prayers. and then in the leadership space, like on my mission,

when I was in the Stake Relief Society, I really advocated if we're gonna have a stake leader come and speak an award, we should have a female stake leader as well. I also asked when I was in that calling, if I could speak at stake priesthood meeting, because that's not someplace that you generally hear from women. And he said Yes. And so I spoke at stake priesthood meeting. So I think when you have the opportunity to be in leadership roles as a woman, I think it's important to, to not shy away from the opportunity to teach and instruct I think it's good for people to say yes yes, I'm willing to, to be in that position to lead and instruct and facilitate conversations because I think it's good for men to hear from women.

Yeah. I can imagine, and maybe you can speak on this a little bit, simply because by sheer volume there's less of leadership positions for women and for, let's say at stake, how do you deal with the fatigue of that process that you're talking about? having to advocate for yourself in a way that men just inherently don't have to, or don't even think about. or for example, if you were to have a, a female speaker with every. stake level speaker there. There'd be less of a pool to, to draw from. Right. That's true. There would be giving a lot more talks because there's only a handful of people to choose from. and if there's not, you know, more, people to choose from, it's an, it's really an extra burden. on you. I'm curious what your experience with that is and how you feel like we might approach that in an effective way.

Yeah. I made a commitment to myself when I was called to that calling that whenever I was in a state council meeting and they said, we need another speaker for the ninth Ward, that I would raise my hand. I wanted to be. Available and willing if we want to have more opportunities to lead, we have to take the opportunities that we have I hear lots of women say, oh, well I don't want that, or I have enough to be in charge of. but if I've been given a calling of leadership or an opportunity to teach, that can be in primary, in young women's, it can be Sunday school. Anytime I'm given an opportunity to teach, I wanna say yes, and I wanna develop my skills and I wanna learn things so that I can have an opportunity to be an influence for good. And so I always just said yes, and I always encouraged the state primary and the state young women, like if we have an opportunity to speak, I think it's really important for us to speak. And I couldn't make them do that. But I tried to lead out with, this is what I'm trying to do, and we're trying to always be willing and ready. And my counselors and even my secretary also spoke when it was a high counselor Sunday, they put them on the rotation regularly, and I let them know that we were very willing and open to those opportunities. And you don't always have to give a different talk every time. Right. If you're speaking to a different ward. And so I didn't find it to be particularly time consuming and I don't actually mind public speaking and it's not something I dread or anything like that. And so I, I felt like it was a good opportunity to. To be a female leader and to show young women and girls like that we can have strong female leaders. And I was received very well by the men in our stake, actually, I had a really good experience in that way. but I, I guess it's true that I had to, to let them know that I was willing and ready and able and actually wanted those opportunities.

Right. Yeah. I think that's an important point, especially for someone like me or young men, Or even older men who are open to change. Like really making sure that that voice or that moment of the feeling that you had to volunteer is welcome and is expected almost, that, you expect to include, everybody's voice at the table. and that just because you hold a leadership role, doesn't mean that the buck stops with you. Really. It means that your responsibility is to actually find out what everybody else is thinking, what the important stakeholders in your community are thinking, which includes all these women. So I think you hit on a really important point where not only is it important for you to be open to volunteering, or stepping into more roles as they come up. but there should be an inclination to invite that. and I, I think for me, that's something that I try to internalize. and that's something I see in my own YSA where honestly, the women in our ward play an outsized leadership role because of their commitment and their, loyalty to each other and their care, and their intelligence and ability to problem solve. it really feels like. they are the ones who drive a lot of the vision or the mission of the YSA. and again, it confuses me as I think about that because it's still just the. The men are the ones who sit on the stand and I said, you know, maybe there's room for having the relief society president zone or something, you know, to, to break it up. You know that there's things that you can change. Why not change them or push that tradition or understanding that doesn't actually have any sort of fundamental grounding other than being the way it is. Where can we push that? and what will that lead to?

Yeah. How do you feel, like you say the women in the YSA are, leading a lot of the decision making, so how do they do that without having maybe as many callings or something? How do you see that happening?

Purely, I think a lot of it comes down to the place we live and the kind of people in the ward. And also there is critical mass. Like there's a, there's more women in the ward than men. so they're the primary community in the ward who need support. and just by way of supporting themselves, they're automatically making decisions for the majority of the ward. for example, the Relief Society presidency has a huge responsibility in caring for and, providing directing resources for this part of the word. And we also have, since we're A YSA, we have a lot of involved with regional leadership. So regional activities or conferences. a lot of the women in our ward step up into those leadership roles as well, so they have access to higher level information, which gives them a lot more weight when they use their voice, for example, at a ward council just because they know what's going on at a higher level. And I think that's a great way to, start thinking about how we can, address I think the sort of outside structural patriarchy of the church by including as much as we can women. These higher level conversations, providing high level information so it can be processed through their perspective, give them the ability to provide, a, a relevant understanding of, of what's going on I just feel like especially in my YSA, there's just a lot of really, really incapable and talented women who. Who keep it going. we try our best to keep up with as the elders quorum presidency, and we have a, great bishop. but it's really them who are the ones that are making everything happen. And I just wish it was more clear that they were the ones that were making everything happen. If a visitor came on the Sunday, they would just see the bishop and his counselors up there and they wouldn't see the real work that's been put in or the real leadership that's being held by these women.

that is fascinating to me because I feel like in the world in general, that the role of women often is the behind the scenes kind of thing, right? Like, it looks like this meal just all came together. It looks like this family vacation just. All magically appeared and at our house, Tom runs the family vacation. He's way better at finding things that are in close proximity to other things and making sure there are gluten-free restaurants nearby and all of that kind of stuff. But often we don't notice, we just go, wow, this turned out so great. So in that case, it's a man doing it, right? But oftentimes it is a woman that's doing it. And so for me, I'm doing this 'cause this is the kind of disciple of Christ that I wanna be. And I'm not doing it necessarily for recognition or for someone to say, whoa, really, the women are running all of this? I feel like if I can keep my motivation for doing things, like I'm doing these things because I'm a disciple of Christ, regardless of whether or not I get praise or acknowledgement or some leadership role from this, that's sort of what drives me. And I think it drives a lot of women. And I don't think they care as much about leadership,

Yeah, I, I think the leadership aspect, purely comes down to getting to decision making. Like at the end of the day, like if the. Prophet of the church or your stake president feels really strongly about something and decides to make a decision. There's nothing that stops them really from making that decision if it's within the bounds of their authority.

Right.

so I think that's the catch for me where I'm like, well, like after all this, there's still, could be some guy who has these strong feelings and would just totally be qua and you'd hope that, you know, maybe the Holy Ghost would tell them or something, but a lot of people feel things that are from the Holy Ghost and they're probably not from the Holy Ghost in some ways, you know? so I, I think that's where a lot of the dissonance comes for me. It's like, all right, what is really the value that we place on the women's decision making ability if they can't actually have a final say and. it's a question that is very hard to swallow for me.

So how do you reconcile that, right? You have these questions, you're still an active participant in the church, so how do you live with that cognitive dissidence?

Well, I think being a church member in general means you live your life in some sort of cognitive dissonance. In some ways. I think that's part of the faith process, that you just have to trust that something is gonna ultimately be the best choice for you. regardless of, some of the questions or doubts you may have surrounding it with the hope that doubts will ultimately become, Insights about life and, and what you can get out of life. So for me, I am able to mitigate this cognitive dissonance because of the relationships I have with women in the church and talking to them and seeing, well, if they're still a part of the church and they're figuring it out, like I, I can probably do that too. as long as I feel like they feeling okay about being in the church. it's really their testimonies, that keep me interested and keep me, going even with these questions, because I do see the transformative power of being a part of a superbly service oriented community and one that's committed to, to Christ and the, message that Christ brought with him, and that the, these women I, I look up to are really a large reason of why I feel like I can't necessarily find an answer to this question because there's always gonna be an enigma of, oh, all right, well, I'm a man and it doesn't actually like it, it applies to me somewhat, not in the same way it is to them, and they still go to church and seem like they're getting a lot of value out of it. So I should be patient. My own doubt and questions, and seek to learn from them as much as I can because they have some really incredible insight to give me, through their own lived experience.

Oh, I love that so much. if the structure is going to stay the same, then what are ways that we could change the way we think so that it would feel more equal.

Yeah, that's a great question. And that's kind of where I'm I'm at right now. I, I don't anticipate any huge structural leadership changes in the way the patriarchy functions in the church at this moment. do I think that they're possible? Absolutely. I would look forward to that day. I think it would be fantastic. but I'm not going to pretend like it's gonna happen, tomorrow or overnight. and I think the situation where we are right now is where we have to focus. You're absolutely right. We need to. Start really paying attention to what we can control. and it starts with our families and the way we treat each other and our, callings in the ward. because we all ultimately go back to our families at the end of the day. And if we build those habits in our family, we'll share them with other people and create a more inclusive space in the church

so tell me how did you come to be so sensitive to this issue, do you think?

well, it, it really comes down to honestly, my family's political background is very progressive. and my aunts and my family and my mom really just had an outsized role in giving me my worldview and teaching me, about the, the important people of the world and the important ways that humans interact. So their belief in a world where everybody has a voice and a say and where we should, love one another regardless of what we look like or what we believe, and support those around us that really played a role in me being aware of, okay, like everybody's voice matters. So why for example, why don't I hear a woman's voice at priesthood beating? Or why do I just see a bunch of men sitting up on the stand if everybody's voice matters and. Those beliefs that they taught me, which were, both at once, I'm political, but also deeply rooted in their faith and understanding of Jesus Christ's message, which is exactly that I think, to, to care truly and altruistically about everybody, regardless of what their gender is, what their identity is, their background, socioeconomic status, any of that. That really struck a chord with me as a young person and as being surrounded by it has, has been a part of my whole life. So I credit them, and I credit my dad and the men in my family for really valuing that as well. and constantly putting forward, or be being open to. seeing the world through a different lens of male and female relationships or roles. I had a time where my dad was a stay at home parent and my mom was off, doing school and working and seeing that was a really important experience for me, and I think that it's, having as a young person, it really opened my eyes. So I would say those that sort of timur and has always been present in my upbringing and, and it's still a big part of me, which is why I, I still sit with these questions and think about them so often.

I remember that year your mom was finishing her PhD and your dad told me after he had learned how to run a household, he said, I'm more competent than I've ever been in my life. Like this was such a hard learning curve and I figured out how to run a household and I'm so proud of myself because there were so many facets to it and it was, it was so hard to learn how to do. He said, I don't know why women aren't just the most confident people in the world. 'cause running all of these things all day long, every day is just like such a monumental task. Anyway, that was really impressive to me. Yeah, and one thing that keeps coming to my mind, when Megan was a little girl, like six years old, she said to me one night when I was tucking her in, why aren't there any women in the scriptures? And I remember thinking, I don't exactly know what to say to her, but immediately this impression came and I said, I know there aren't lots of women. And historically men were the ones that learned how to read and write, and they were the ones who wrote the records. And so that's why there aren't as many women. But if you want to know how God feels about women, watch Jesus. Because everywhere in the scriptures Jesus talks to girls. The first person he appeared to was a girl after he was resurrected. The first person that he told what his divine calling was as the Messiah, was a girl. Jesus really loves girls, and whenever I feel like maybe women are overlooked, I turn to that and remember, I know how Jesus feels about girls. so I'm okay because I feel like I know my value,

I really like that point that, we actually have a great institute class being taught by one of my friends. She's a PhD student at UNC right now studying, classics, specifically Greek and Latin and, translations of the Bible. She's teaching a woman in the Bible course and it has been really, Awesome course. And probably the most well attended course at our institute right now, which is cool to see. but to your point, there has to be those small things that we choose to do in our own church experience that ultimately compile into larger changes in the church and the changes that you want to see, whether that be assigning someone else to choose the prayer or including different kinds of leadership in your mission. those are the sorts of things that we can do that ultimately result in change. I think. and the change will not be something we expect. I think it'll be different than what we imagined, but it'll be changing nonetheless for the better. so that's what I hope for that as well as a young member to see that change throughout my life. and I think it's encouraging to, to see some of those things happening. I wish they'd happened faster, but when they do happen, I'm grateful.

I appreciate you talking to me. Is there any last bit of advice or counsel you'd wanna share?

well, I'm grateful for you Brooke, and you starting all these conversations. I'm grateful to be able to. Be a part of the conversation, and I hope the people that are listening to this can, just know that, this is a conversation that I really respect and I really value. And if you're listening, I value your insight and your voice and that conversation, and that, I hope that you can make that voice heard with someone you love and have that conversation. the more conversations we can have around this, the more understanding we can have, the more respect we can have towards each other, the better decisions we can make, which is gonna result in a better outcomes for all of us as church members. And the mission of the church to, be a church of Christ on this earth that really needs, the example of Jesus Christ right now. so I think that that would be my final word, but just thank you so much for letting me come and talk.

I appreciate your insight and I hope this can, allow other people to have conversations about these things and how they can make sure that they're doing things in their family that show respect to both the men and the women in their family. And then, as we go outside in the broader context of award and stake, making sure those things are happening. So, thank

you. Yeah, thank you.

Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. If you're finding the podcast useful, I hope that you'll rate and review it so that other people can find it. And if you want more help from me, join my email list and you'll get more support, more ideas, and more help in your relationships. All that information is in the show notes. Have a great week.