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Marvin:
Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly,

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Marvin:
and we're back with another Casting Angles with Mack Brown. Mack, how are you?

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Mac:
I'm doing great, Marvin. How are you doing?

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Marvin:
As always, I'm just trying to stay out of trouble. And, you know,

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Marvin:
we were talking before we started recording, you had a really good casting school this past weekend.

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Mac:
Oh, yeah, it was really, when I think back, Connie and I talked a lot about

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Mac:
it Sunday night when it was over. I really think it was one of the funner groups

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Mac:
I've seen in a very long time.

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Mac:
They were all really, really talented, really receptive and malleable and on

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Mac:
that path of growth, you know.

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Mac:
So it made it really rewarding for the two days with them. And that was fun.

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Mac:
We got to go out on the town of Bryson on Saturday night.

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Mac:
And that was a lot of fun. Eat dinner and listen to live music.

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Mac:
And that made it special, too. Just the camaraderie of the whole group together, you know.

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Marvin:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of a good thing, too. you know we were also

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Marvin:
talking it's kind of funny so i'm in charlotte and i

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Marvin:
guess the the tropical depression hurricane that came through uh the gulf uh

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Marvin:
last week is getting here we're gonna get about two inches of rain and you're

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Marvin:
not gonna get much of anything which is you know been kind of the the story

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Marvin:
for like the last i don't know two months in your neck of the woods to the root

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Marvin:
so the creeks are low so it's good to have something to do maybe other than fishing right.

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Mac:
It is that doesn't look like we're going to get any out of this one still like

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Mac:
i don't think we were predicted to get any and it's like yeah it's really low

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Mac:
i mean everything's about as low as i've seen it in a long time like really

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Mac:
long time maybe 20 years it's like i haven't seen it this low so it's good this

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Mac:
is setting up for a really technical fall yeah.

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Marvin:
Which is good i mean if you like the challenge you know and it's funny too because

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Marvin:
we were talking i don't know it's a couple reports uh back i think we were talking

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Marvin:
about the fact that the main uh trout hatchery is going to of closed down for

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Marvin:
renovations for a while.

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Marvin:
And you were like, well, I don't want to talk about it because,

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Marvin:
you know, I haven't read anything about it, just kind of what I've heard.

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Marvin:
And there was actually an email that came out in the last week or so from the

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Marvin:
state fishing game folks.

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Marvin:
And, you know, I can kind of give folks a little bit of an update if you want me to.

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Mac:
Yeah, that'd be great because there's lots of different rumors saying the state

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Mac:
was going to buy the same number in stock.

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Mac:
And then a lot of them said that, no, it wasn't. It was going to be reduced.

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Mac:
So, yeah, I mean, I'd like to hear it because I didn't see that email.

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Marvin:
Yeah, and I'll drop a link to it. It's from the website, but the short version

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Marvin:
is stockings are normal through 2024, and then they're going to shut down the hatchery.

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Marvin:
And the hatchery we're talking about is that big hatchery that's on the Davidson River.

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Marvin:
And that's the hatchery that provides most of the trout for the state of North Carolina.

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Marvin:
And so they're going to renovate that, and they're expecting stockings to be

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Marvin:
reduced by 65% for 2025 and 2026, maybe into early 2027.

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Marvin:
So, you know, the state has – they're in the process of negotiating,

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Marvin:
you know, buying fish from other states and from private people,

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Marvin:
but there are really only so many.

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Marvin:
And, you know, the short of the article is, you know, even once the hatchery's

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Marvin:
back online, it's going to take a while to grow stockable-sized fish.

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Marvin:
And so we may not be back to kind of 2024 levels until 2029.

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Mac:
Yeah, that's several years out, too.

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Mac:
That's really going to affect a lot of the state with that long of a closure.

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Marvin:
Yeah, and so, you know, I guess what I would say from an advice perspective

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Marvin:
is to, you know, probably pay more attention than usual to stocking schedules.

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Marvin:
And, you know, what the state is saying in this article is that they're going

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Marvin:
to basically continue to stock hatchery-supported and delayed harvest water,

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Marvin:
and they're going to kind of ratably spread the fish out.

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Marvin:
So, you know, we're going to have significantly lower numbers of fish.

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Marvin:
And so, you know, you know, that's going to be a big difference if you get,

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Marvin:
you know, a third of what you're expecting to get in like January 2025.

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Mac:
Yeah, well, that'll definitely, that'll affect everything. The babble lobbers are in trouble, Martin.

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Mac:
So they're going to be in trouble because they're not going over the same number.

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Mac:
They might have to learn a new technique.

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Marvin:
They could come to one of your schools, Matt Brown.

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Mac:
Well, with it this low is what I'm saying. It's like, that would be, that is true.

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Mac:
Like this fall, I know a lot of the, I mean, just for one reason I say that,

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Mac:
I'm not really making fun of that.

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Mac:
I'm just saying the majority, 90% of stuff you see up here was trips.

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Mac:
So that's what people do. And with the water this low and to have a golf ball

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Mac:
splat on the surface with the water as low as it is, that's going to make it

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Mac:
even tougher, you know, especially during a low water event.

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Mac:
You probably don't want to have a golf ball splatting down, you know?

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Marvin:
Yeah. So, I mean, you know, what I would say, right, if you're in like low technical

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Marvin:
fall fishing, you know, one probably at most probably a yarn indicator, right?

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Mac:
Yeah. Yarn or dry dropper, you know, using the dry, you could use some dry flies that are bigger.

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Mac:
With like you know rabbit's foot you could use rabbit's foot um just pick some

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Mac:
high floatability flies like the snowshoe rabbit foot flies are really good

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Mac:
in the fall when it's low because it lands like a i like that i like to fish

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Mac:
a dry i just like having something up there,

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Mac:
in case they happen to look up because there's a lot of times in the fall marvin

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Mac:
where they'll hit the little poly indicator a bunch and it's like then you think

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Mac:
wow why didn't i put a hook on it but you know the poly indicators get a lot

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Mac:
of strikes when they're orange in the fall because of the orange caddis that happened.

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Mac:
So you'll see a lot of orange poly getting hit.

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Mac:
So you might as well put a... Years ago, I did this a lot out there.

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Mac:
Literally, I'd take poly, and the whole pattern that I'm fishing for the indicator was just poly.

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Mac:
Like a poly wing, an F-style dry fly of just poly latched to a hook.

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Mac:
There's nothing else on it.

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Mac:
There's no dubbing, there's no hackle, there's no anything. That would be the indicator.

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Mac:
And it was shocking how many fish you'd catch on the indicator fly,

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Mac:
which was literally an indicator.

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Mac:
So, yeah, having a little hook on it, little dry fly wire is probably better

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Mac:
off than just having poly with not anything on it, you know?

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Marvin:
Yeah, I'm a big fan of either orange elk hair caddis or stimulators,

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Marvin:
kind of as the, if I was going to do the dry dropper thing this time of year.

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Mac:
Oh, for sure. Because the stimulator, especially in like a size 12,

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Mac:
that's really the perfect size matching the orange caddis. You know,

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Mac:
you start seeing those usually about middle of October and you'll see them all

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Mac:
the way up to about middle of November.

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Mac:
And that's probably my favorite, favorite pattern for that time of year.

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Marvin:
And then I guess we would also say, right, you know, longer,

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Marvin:
thinner leaders is another way to go.

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Marvin:
And to probably start your presentations upstream with the fish to give yourself

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Marvin:
a little bit more time to get your act together, right?

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Mac:
Yes basically with this low water like long and fine

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Mac:
setups are going to be king for

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Mac:
sure i mean i don't think i don't think having them short

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Mac:
is very good advice for anybody for any technique like to

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Mac:
have it really short as low as it is it's

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Mac:
just so it's so low that i think

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Mac:
it was last wednesday i went up uh slick rock on the

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Mac:
tennessee state line i ended up hiking i didn't

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Mac:
even fish but one little spot and i mean

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Mac:
i've never seen it that low it was literally you know

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Mac:
the big waterfall called wildcat falls up there it's just

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Mac:
a trickle just a little trickle coming over the falls we used

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Mac:
to kayak it a lot when it would flood back in the 80s but i walked all the way

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Mac:
back up from the lake at calderwood lake almost to joyce kilmer where that headwater

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Mac:
slick rock forms and i ended up just doing a hike up the river and then back

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Mac:
out just to see it you know because it's a nice place to hike.

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Mac:
I was more doing a hike, I guess you could say.

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Mac:
But I've never seen it that low. And it's the same thing with a lot of these creeks around.

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Mac:
Right now, it's just kind of low, excessively low.

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Mac:
So, yeah, lengthening out the setup is going to be huge and also reducing weight.

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Mac:
You know, like people will open the box and it's got their favorite,

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Mac:
whatever their pattern is in there with weight.

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Mac:
And it's like, right now, you want to be fishing, you know,

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Mac:
know a whole lot lighter because just the fact of

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Mac:
the weight going in there makes a huge disturbance at this

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Mac:
level you know so if you had a four millimeter mop fly that you fished in the

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Mac:
spring and you wanted to do it now a lot of the mops i'm fishing this time of

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Mac:
year unweighted it's just the weight of the hook because you know the material's

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Mac:
neutral density so you throw it in it's still going to sink to the bottom real

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Mac:
quick it's just it's not going to disturb stuff when it hits,

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Mac:
as much as having a bead you know so a lot of things too like brass you know

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Mac:
brass gets a bad nowadays, everybody thinks tungsten, tungsten.

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Mac:
It's like, you know, I would go to brass because brass is half the way to,

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Mac:
about half the way to lead.

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Mac:
So fishing a lot of brass flies that are small right now are perfect,

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Mac:
you know, for small flies.

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Mac:
We're still using a lot of small flies, but brass is like, I don't know.

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Mac:
I think brass is underutilized, to be honest, because I fish a lot of brass this time of year.

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Marvin:
Yeah, or even small nymphs with glass beads, right?

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Mac:
Oh, yeah. Glass could be good, too, especially going into early winter when we get the betas.

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Mac:
A lot of the betas activity, there's a lot of times we'll use little purple

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Mac:
beads or clear beads for betas just to have a little bit different pop on it. I like glass quite a bit.

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Mac:
So that's fantastic. But that's going to really affect. Yeah,

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Mac:
it's going to be interesting to see what happens with all these big outings and trips.

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Mac:
And it'll be interesting to see because I don't know really how much it'll affect.

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Mac:
I mean, it definitely will affect the fishing as far as like tourism and saying,

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Mac:
oh, we're not going. We're going to Georgia or we're going to Tennessee.

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Mac:
I don't think so because I don't think there's such a destination with 13.5

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Mac:
million people a year visiting the park. I don't think they're at home looking

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Mac:
about, did they stalk or didn't they stalk?

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Mac:
They're going to probably learn it after they're here, you know?

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Mac:
So I don't think most people will know that coming either. So I wonder how much

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Mac:
it affects, that's what I'm saying.

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Marvin:
Yeah, it'll be interesting. I mean, I think probably to me, the best defense is a good offense.

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Marvin:
And so I would say, you know, one way to approach this is, you know,

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Marvin:
at some level, it's going to be more challenging, right? Because you're going to have fewer fish.

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Mac:
Right?

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Marvin:
Right. And, you know, my general, I mean, you've done construction.

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Marvin:
I've done construction finance.

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Marvin:
Very rarely do things CO on time. Right. So I would imagine that this hatchery

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Marvin:
project is going to take longer than they think it's going to take.

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Mac:
It's like the highway in Asheville they've been working on for 15 years. Yeah.

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Marvin:
Yeah.

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Mac:
And so that just like on 26.

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Marvin:
Yeah, it just is. It is what it is. But what I would say is then maybe the approach

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Marvin:
to take is, you know, try to kind of break things down and,

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Marvin:
you know, take advantage of having fewer fish that are going to be,

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Marvin:
you know, in theory, better educated because they're going to get caught a lot more.

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Marvin:
And, you know, kind of come up with a list of techniques and things that you

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Marvin:
want to work on and use this time to work on it so that when there are more

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Marvin:
fish in the river, you're an even more effective angler in two,

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Marvin:
three, four, five years.

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Mac:
That's right you can still practice all those techniques and perfect something

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00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:09,170
Mac:
that you're deficient in and you know a lot of people never have fished a wet

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00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:12,290
Mac:
fly i mean go pick a technique you're not familiar with and start working at

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00:11:12,290 --> 00:11:16,490
Mac:
it or whatever it might be dry fly you know if you fish nymphs all the time

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00:11:16,490 --> 00:11:21,330
Mac:
or tightline nymphing which is you know so popular all over it's like well move

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00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:24,170
Mac:
away from that do something else if you want to become more well-rounded.

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Marvin:
And so, you know, as we get deeper and deeper into fall, right,

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Marvin:
I know you just had a casting school.

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Marvin:
I know you've got a testing event coming up. And I know, you know,

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00:11:32,663 --> 00:11:37,423
Marvin:
we were also talking before we started recording, you have got a pretty full 2025 show schedule.

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Marvin:
You want to kind of update folks on kind of what you have going on.

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Marvin:
And if they want to get in touch with you, either to take a class at a show,

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00:11:43,923 --> 00:11:46,123
Marvin:
get on the river with you, take a lesson, what they should do?

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Mac:
You sure we're gonna start out um i

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00:11:49,863 --> 00:11:53,483
Mac:
think the first one is up in uh marlborough near

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Mac:
boston and um that'll be the first one and there's classes at all these but

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Mac:
basically all the fly fishing shows i'm going to do except for lancaster and

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Mac:
then i'm doing the one in saint paul um twin cities in march and there's a couple

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Mac:
other ones right now we're working on that are

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Mac:
overseas that I'm thinking I'm going to probably put those in too.

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Mac:
So we'll update on that, but probably just looking at the schedule on mattbrownflyfish.com

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Mac:
because I put the dates and everything where they are, like where we'll be.

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Mac:
So that's a good thing in the winter. I really enjoy doing those in the wintertime.

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Marvin:
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, folks, as I always say, you owe it to yourself

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Marvin:
to get out there and catch a few. Tight lines, everybody. Tight lines, Matt.

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Mac:
Tight lines, Marvin.