Marvin: Hey, folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly,

Marvin: and we're back with another Casting Angles with Mack Brown. Mack, how are you?

Mac: I'm doing great, Marvin. How are you doing?

Marvin: As always, I'm just trying to stay out of trouble. And, you know,

Marvin: we were talking before we started recording, you had a really good casting school this past weekend.

Mac: Oh, yeah, it was really, when I think back, Connie and I talked a lot about

Mac: it Sunday night when it was over. I really think it was one of the funner groups

Mac: I've seen in a very long time.

Mac: They were all really, really talented, really receptive and malleable and on

Mac: that path of growth, you know.

Mac: So it made it really rewarding for the two days with them. And that was fun.

Mac: We got to go out on the town of Bryson on Saturday night.

Mac: And that was a lot of fun. Eat dinner and listen to live music.

Mac: And that made it special, too. Just the camaraderie of the whole group together, you know.

Marvin: Yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of a good thing, too. you know we were also

Marvin: talking it's kind of funny so i'm in charlotte and i

Marvin: guess the the tropical depression hurricane that came through uh the gulf uh

Marvin: last week is getting here we're gonna get about two inches of rain and you're

Marvin: not gonna get much of anything which is you know been kind of the the story

Marvin: for like the last i don't know two months in your neck of the woods to the root

Marvin: so the creeks are low so it's good to have something to do maybe other than fishing right.

Mac: It is that doesn't look like we're going to get any out of this one still like

Mac: i don't think we were predicted to get any and it's like yeah it's really low

Mac: i mean everything's about as low as i've seen it in a long time like really

Mac: long time maybe 20 years it's like i haven't seen it this low so it's good this

Mac: is setting up for a really technical fall yeah.

Marvin: Which is good i mean if you like the challenge you know and it's funny too because

Marvin: we were talking i don't know it's a couple reports uh back i think we were talking

Marvin: about the fact that the main uh trout hatchery is going to of closed down for

Marvin: renovations for a while.

Marvin: And you were like, well, I don't want to talk about it because,

Marvin: you know, I haven't read anything about it, just kind of what I've heard.

Marvin: And there was actually an email that came out in the last week or so from the

Marvin: state fishing game folks.

Marvin: And, you know, I can kind of give folks a little bit of an update if you want me to.

Mac: Yeah, that'd be great because there's lots of different rumors saying the state

Mac: was going to buy the same number in stock.

Mac: And then a lot of them said that, no, it wasn't. It was going to be reduced.

Mac: So, yeah, I mean, I'd like to hear it because I didn't see that email.

Marvin: Yeah, and I'll drop a link to it. It's from the website, but the short version

Marvin: is stockings are normal through 2024, and then they're going to shut down the hatchery.

Marvin: And the hatchery we're talking about is that big hatchery that's on the Davidson River.

Marvin: And that's the hatchery that provides most of the trout for the state of North Carolina.

Marvin: And so they're going to renovate that, and they're expecting stockings to be

Marvin: reduced by 65% for 2025 and 2026, maybe into early 2027.

Marvin: So, you know, the state has – they're in the process of negotiating,

Marvin: you know, buying fish from other states and from private people,

Marvin: but there are really only so many.

Marvin: And, you know, the short of the article is, you know, even once the hatchery's

Marvin: back online, it's going to take a while to grow stockable-sized fish.

Marvin: And so we may not be back to kind of 2024 levels until 2029.

Mac: Yeah, that's several years out, too.

Mac: That's really going to affect a lot of the state with that long of a closure.

Marvin: Yeah, and so, you know, I guess what I would say from an advice perspective

Marvin: is to, you know, probably pay more attention than usual to stocking schedules.

Marvin: And, you know, what the state is saying in this article is that they're going

Marvin: to basically continue to stock hatchery-supported and delayed harvest water,

Marvin: and they're going to kind of ratably spread the fish out.

Marvin: So, you know, we're going to have significantly lower numbers of fish.

Marvin: And so, you know, you know, that's going to be a big difference if you get,

Marvin: you know, a third of what you're expecting to get in like January 2025.

Mac: Yeah, well, that'll definitely, that'll affect everything. The babble lobbers are in trouble, Martin.

Mac: So they're going to be in trouble because they're not going over the same number.

Mac: They might have to learn a new technique.

Marvin: They could come to one of your schools, Matt Brown.

Mac: Well, with it this low is what I'm saying. It's like, that would be, that is true.

Mac: Like this fall, I know a lot of the, I mean, just for one reason I say that,

Mac: I'm not really making fun of that.

Mac: I'm just saying the majority, 90% of stuff you see up here was trips.

Mac: So that's what people do. And with the water this low and to have a golf ball

Mac: splat on the surface with the water as low as it is, that's going to make it

Mac: even tougher, you know, especially during a low water event.

Mac: You probably don't want to have a golf ball splatting down, you know?

Marvin: Yeah. So, I mean, you know, what I would say, right, if you're in like low technical

Marvin: fall fishing, you know, one probably at most probably a yarn indicator, right?

Mac: Yeah. Yarn or dry dropper, you know, using the dry, you could use some dry flies that are bigger.

Mac: With like you know rabbit's foot you could use rabbit's foot um just pick some

Mac: high floatability flies like the snowshoe rabbit foot flies are really good

Mac: in the fall when it's low because it lands like a i like that i like to fish

Mac: a dry i just like having something up there,

Mac: in case they happen to look up because there's a lot of times in the fall marvin

Mac: where they'll hit the little poly indicator a bunch and it's like then you think

Mac: wow why didn't i put a hook on it but you know the poly indicators get a lot

Mac: of strikes when they're orange in the fall because of the orange caddis that happened.

Mac: So you'll see a lot of orange poly getting hit.

Mac: So you might as well put a... Years ago, I did this a lot out there.

Mac: Literally, I'd take poly, and the whole pattern that I'm fishing for the indicator was just poly.

Mac: Like a poly wing, an F-style dry fly of just poly latched to a hook.

Mac: There's nothing else on it.

Mac: There's no dubbing, there's no hackle, there's no anything. That would be the indicator.

Mac: And it was shocking how many fish you'd catch on the indicator fly,

Mac: which was literally an indicator.

Mac: So, yeah, having a little hook on it, little dry fly wire is probably better

Mac: off than just having poly with not anything on it, you know?

Marvin: Yeah, I'm a big fan of either orange elk hair caddis or stimulators,

Marvin: kind of as the, if I was going to do the dry dropper thing this time of year.

Mac: Oh, for sure. Because the stimulator, especially in like a size 12,

Mac: that's really the perfect size matching the orange caddis. You know,

Mac: you start seeing those usually about middle of October and you'll see them all

Mac: the way up to about middle of November.

Mac: And that's probably my favorite, favorite pattern for that time of year.

Marvin: And then I guess we would also say, right, you know, longer,

Marvin: thinner leaders is another way to go.

Marvin: And to probably start your presentations upstream with the fish to give yourself

Marvin: a little bit more time to get your act together, right?

Mac: Yes basically with this low water like long and fine

Mac: setups are going to be king for

Mac: sure i mean i don't think i don't think having them short

Mac: is very good advice for anybody for any technique like to

Mac: have it really short as low as it is it's

Mac: just so it's so low that i think

Mac: it was last wednesday i went up uh slick rock on the

Mac: tennessee state line i ended up hiking i didn't

Mac: even fish but one little spot and i mean

Mac: i've never seen it that low it was literally you know

Mac: the big waterfall called wildcat falls up there it's just

Mac: a trickle just a little trickle coming over the falls we used

Mac: to kayak it a lot when it would flood back in the 80s but i walked all the way

Mac: back up from the lake at calderwood lake almost to joyce kilmer where that headwater

Mac: slick rock forms and i ended up just doing a hike up the river and then back

Mac: out just to see it you know because it's a nice place to hike.

Mac: I was more doing a hike, I guess you could say.

Mac: But I've never seen it that low. And it's the same thing with a lot of these creeks around.

Mac: Right now, it's just kind of low, excessively low.

Mac: So, yeah, lengthening out the setup is going to be huge and also reducing weight.

Mac: You know, like people will open the box and it's got their favorite,

Mac: whatever their pattern is in there with weight.

Mac: And it's like, right now, you want to be fishing, you know,

Mac: know a whole lot lighter because just the fact of

Mac: the weight going in there makes a huge disturbance at this

Mac: level you know so if you had a four millimeter mop fly that you fished in the

Mac: spring and you wanted to do it now a lot of the mops i'm fishing this time of

Mac: year unweighted it's just the weight of the hook because you know the material's

Mac: neutral density so you throw it in it's still going to sink to the bottom real

Mac: quick it's just it's not going to disturb stuff when it hits,

Mac: as much as having a bead you know so a lot of things too like brass you know

Mac: brass gets a bad nowadays, everybody thinks tungsten, tungsten.

Mac: It's like, you know, I would go to brass because brass is half the way to,

Mac: about half the way to lead.

Mac: So fishing a lot of brass flies that are small right now are perfect,

Mac: you know, for small flies.

Mac: We're still using a lot of small flies, but brass is like, I don't know.

Mac: I think brass is underutilized, to be honest, because I fish a lot of brass this time of year.

Marvin: Yeah, or even small nymphs with glass beads, right?

Mac: Oh, yeah. Glass could be good, too, especially going into early winter when we get the betas.

Mac: A lot of the betas activity, there's a lot of times we'll use little purple

Mac: beads or clear beads for betas just to have a little bit different pop on it. I like glass quite a bit.

Mac: So that's fantastic. But that's going to really affect. Yeah,

Mac: it's going to be interesting to see what happens with all these big outings and trips.

Mac: And it'll be interesting to see because I don't know really how much it'll affect.

Mac: I mean, it definitely will affect the fishing as far as like tourism and saying,

Mac: oh, we're not going. We're going to Georgia or we're going to Tennessee.

Mac: I don't think so because I don't think there's such a destination with 13.5

Mac: million people a year visiting the park. I don't think they're at home looking

Mac: about, did they stalk or didn't they stalk?

Mac: They're going to probably learn it after they're here, you know?

Mac: So I don't think most people will know that coming either. So I wonder how much

Mac: it affects, that's what I'm saying.

Marvin: Yeah, it'll be interesting. I mean, I think probably to me, the best defense is a good offense.

Marvin: And so I would say, you know, one way to approach this is, you know,

Marvin: at some level, it's going to be more challenging, right? Because you're going to have fewer fish.

Mac: Right?

Marvin: Right. And, you know, my general, I mean, you've done construction.

Marvin: I've done construction finance.

Marvin: Very rarely do things CO on time. Right. So I would imagine that this hatchery

Marvin: project is going to take longer than they think it's going to take.

Mac: It's like the highway in Asheville they've been working on for 15 years. Yeah.

Marvin: Yeah.

Mac: And so that just like on 26.

Marvin: Yeah, it just is. It is what it is. But what I would say is then maybe the approach

Marvin: to take is, you know, try to kind of break things down and,

Marvin: you know, take advantage of having fewer fish that are going to be,

Marvin: you know, in theory, better educated because they're going to get caught a lot more.

Marvin: And, you know, kind of come up with a list of techniques and things that you

Marvin: want to work on and use this time to work on it so that when there are more

Marvin: fish in the river, you're an even more effective angler in two,

Marvin: three, four, five years.

Mac: That's right you can still practice all those techniques and perfect something

Mac: that you're deficient in and you know a lot of people never have fished a wet

Mac: fly i mean go pick a technique you're not familiar with and start working at

Mac: it or whatever it might be dry fly you know if you fish nymphs all the time

Mac: or tightline nymphing which is you know so popular all over it's like well move

Mac: away from that do something else if you want to become more well-rounded.

Marvin: And so, you know, as we get deeper and deeper into fall, right,

Marvin: I know you just had a casting school.

Marvin: I know you've got a testing event coming up. And I know, you know,

Marvin: we were also talking before we started recording, you have got a pretty full 2025 show schedule.

Marvin: You want to kind of update folks on kind of what you have going on.

Marvin: And if they want to get in touch with you, either to take a class at a show,

Marvin: get on the river with you, take a lesson, what they should do?

Mac: You sure we're gonna start out um i

Mac: think the first one is up in uh marlborough near

Mac: boston and um that'll be the first one and there's classes at all these but

Mac: basically all the fly fishing shows i'm going to do except for lancaster and

Mac: then i'm doing the one in saint paul um twin cities in march and there's a couple

Mac: other ones right now we're working on that are

Mac: overseas that I'm thinking I'm going to probably put those in too.

Mac: So we'll update on that, but probably just looking at the schedule on mattbrownflyfish.com

Mac: because I put the dates and everything where they are, like where we'll be.

Mac: So that's a good thing in the winter. I really enjoy doing those in the wintertime.

Marvin: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, folks, as I always say, you owe it to yourself

Marvin: to get out there and catch a few. Tight lines, everybody. Tight lines, Matt.

Mac: Tight lines, Marvin.