I am such a huge fan of making mistakes.

Like I talk about this all the time.

what is so bad about being wrong, right?

Like, what if you're wrong?

Like, what if you were okay with being wrong?

There is incredible freedom.

Incredible freedom right now.

We don't have to defend ourselves.

We don't have to fight.

We don't have to, we don't have to be right?

How can decluttering not just your home, but your life, lead

to greater peace and focus?

Welcome to this episode of Seek Go Create, where we're joined by Sarah

Mueller, founder of the Decluttering Club.

Sarah has transformed the lives of hundreds of thousands by

teaching them how to let go of clutter without the overwhelm.

Today she's here to share her effective decluttering strategies

and discuss how she leads and runs her successful business.

Join us as we explore practical tips and inspiring insights on living a

life with Less stuff and more life.

Sarah, welcome to Seat Go Create.

Thank you so much for that intro.

Yeah, I think you think we could cover all that.

Think we could get to that.

Totally, absolutely.

I love the decluttering conversation.

When we first met a month or so back, we talked about it.

We'll get to that.

let me jump in on my first question here and, get things started.

Either deep or light, depending on how we do.

I'm gonna give you a choice.

Answer the question, what do you do, kind of the standard

icebreaker or slightly deeper.

Who are you, which one do you want to answer?

And go ahead and just answer it,

pick it, and go.

I think I'm gonna go.

with the first question.

what do I do?

that's just such a, good at that question.

and the answer is I help, one of the answers is that I help women

with messy homes learn how to let go, So they have time to focus

on what matters most to them,

Our motto is less stuff and more life, right?

we're not into minimalism.

Although if you are, that's amazing.

But, that's not what we're about.

We are just about helping people to let go of the burdens they don't.

Sometimes they don't even know they're caring, but they let go of the burdens

and then life gets easier, and then they can do the things that they want

to do that they are called to do.

but you can't do that if you are drowning in clutter, whether that's

like mental clutter, physical clutter, you know, like limiting beliefs.

There's all kinds of directions we can take it, but that's what

we do in a nutshell, right?

we tackle the physical stuff, but also it's always intertwined with what's

going on inside our heads because we cannot declutter our physical spaces

if we do not clean up our minds.

So those are both very important.

That's cool.

On my notes here, I wrote down mindset, we'll get to that in just a second,

but you said this is one of the answers that you give for what you do.

Mm-hmm.

what might be another one or some of the answers that you

would give for what you do.

Well, you know, it depends on who I'm talking to really.

sometimes I say I'm a life coach.

Sometimes I say I'm a marketer, right?

Because I love, why do people do the things that they do?

Why do I do the things that I do?

And that is all psychology and marketing.

And if I can understand that, then I can help my customers, I can help

them change and solve their problems.

I can solve my problems, right?

so marketing and psychology and neuroscience is also a

really big passion of mine.

It's really intertwined in my work.

And what else?

Business owner, right?

I do like, that's a, really strong, identity for me as well.

So again, kind of depends on who I'm talking to.

I like that.

Now, one of the things you mentioned in the previous, what you do is,

you said that you work with the decluttering, but you were very

specific that it was for women

Mm-hmm.

e either tell me why or why is it important just for women?

Are you excluding men?

Do men not need it?

Tell me more.

my gosh.

It's hilarious because people get really mad at me, right?

They're like, what about the men?

Is this only a women's thing?

And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

But my heart is for women.

And this is, I feel like the, obviously, I mean, these are

huge generalizations, right?

But, in general, like we, women have different issues

running clutter than men do.

Do we exclude men?

No, we don't.

We do have some men in the decluttering Club.

They are working hard.

We love them.

They are welcome.

but I'm specifically talking to women because I feel like we, you know, we

have been raised, we have different programming than men do in general, right?

Like, we're generalizing here.

So that's why we talk to women.

that's why I say that, because I feel like the issues are a bit different.

So that's why we go there.

However, everybody's welcome.

Well, I do think that there are, I mean, listen, the people that

say there's no difference between men and women are going, come on.

Really?

but we do have to be careful generalizing because there's some.

Variations.

You know, people joke all the time about Oh yeah, you know, if you're in a

household, I'm sure that the woman does the laundry and the woman does the dishes.

No, I do all of that in our household.

So, and my wife would tell you, this is kind of an interesting,

kinda get started to a more deeper conversation about clutter.

I am much more the neater, tidier, everything has a place.

I love to get rid of stuff.

We live in an rv, come on.

my wife accumulates a little bit more than I do.

And so there are some differences and all.

of course.

Right?

I mean, you know, there's, there's some women who are incredibly neat and tidy and

they are orderly and they don't need me.

there are some men that are neat and tidy it just like I am talking to the subset of

people who fit kind of that demographic.

But,

Right.

never know where we end up.

Sure.

I think,

you may have a decluttered house, but, your mind is a mess,

you're really struggling there.

So, we do have some, different topics that we do cover beyond just the kind of the

initial, decluttering your stuff type of

But before we kind of dive in and maybe start really doing some

things with the decluttering, what would you say is your superpower?

you mentioned a couple things earlier.

Obviously you've got a club that's decluttering and I think that's

something that we discussed.

you're good at it, but you also just mentioned the marketing and all that.

Mm-hmm.

You actually spoke with a little bit of a different tone when you talked about that,

hmm.

Mm-hmm.

but what is your superpower?

what is that thing that you were really created for?

Oh, I love that question.

I think my superpower is listening to people without judgment, right?

And so I think it's two things, and they're both super important.

I can listen to people, people tell me their life stories all the time, right?

So I can listen without judgment I'm able to explain things in new ways to people.

You know, if you come with a problem, you think, well, this is just the problem.

But if we can restate the problem, if I can explain a problem to you

in a different way, then it's going to, uncover a solution to you.

So I think that those two things have really allowed me to reach people and

help them in a unique way, because I can give them steps, I can give

them solutions that they can action on, and they don't feel judged.

So I think it's those two things, hand in hand.

I think that word without judgment, the two words I guess,

I think it's so important, especially with your community.

I think we talked about this the first time we met.

I was intrigued, super intrigued.

That's one of the reasons we continue to talk.

'cause I just am so intrigued with all that you're doing.

And I, being someone who is like, super into, not minimalism, but

I just, I don't like accumulating stuff and all that kinda stuff.

I, I could see how if I were trying to run that group, I'd be judging.

I would be, so, I admire, I mean, it, it's.

Because I'm guessing you probably don't have much of a life of clutter, do you?

I used to though,

Okay.

I can

relate.

Hmm.

yeah, I can relate

I.

to be overwhelmed, right?

And I.

mean, I still get over, like human beings get overwhelmed, right?

So that's not, that's not unique to clutter.

But um, yeah, I definitely, I can relate.

And also again.

One of the things that we teach in the decluttering club is

that you're not your stuff.

So maybe you do have a kitchen that you know has seen better days, right?

And, you know, could use some work.

I understand that doesn't mean that you are a horrible person.

It doesn't mean you're a failure as a person, as a wife, as a mother,

as a parent, whatever, right?

Like it doesn't, and I think that gets a little bit back to, you know,

seeing things differently I know, oh, it, isn't your failure, this

is because of your A DHD or your perfectionism or your overwhelm, right?

So it's a completely different cause like people attribute their

struggles to the wrong things.

And if you don't have the attribution right, then.

not gonna be able to solve the problem.

So I think that's kind of a nice way to look at it, right?

I'm like, oh, I don't need to judge you because I know that, this isn't about you.

I mean, it is, and it isn't,

Now, it doesn't mean that I would wanna live in that house.

Probably not.

But I don't need to, like, I can help someone, you know, I can hold

space for them without, judging them.

And also have different standards for myself, right?

Hmm.

that's really important.

Yeah, so one of the things that I convinced my wife of at one point in our

lives was that the problem is drawers.

That if we didn't have any drawers, we would be able to

not accumulate and have clutter.

I'm sure you know how that worked out.

It worked out.

We actually, we were in an apartment.

We were at bible school.

We were up in the mountains of Colorado.

We were there for three years and we never had any drawers in our bedroom.

We only had the fixed drawers that were in the kitchen

out for you then?

Did that solve, did

Sarah, here's the deal.

Maybe it eliminated clutter.

Was it good for my relationship with my beautiful bride of 30 something years?

I'm not so sure.

You know, it might've been like I won the battle, but lost

the bigger war or something.

Mm-hmm.

Well, one of the things that, people have heard this, and I

think I shared this with you.

we were at one point in a big old home, bunch of stuff, lost all of that,

traveled around with just basically almost a backpack and a duffle bag.

Went to Australia and New Zealand, and one of the things we did learn, this is kind

of interesting, you think your stuff is so important, but there's stuff everywhere.

Mm-hmm.

We were never at a loss for clothing.

Hmm.

For furniture when we moved in places or, I mean, there was stuff.

There's stuff everywhere.

All over this world, right?

Absolutely.

I love that.

That's so true.

But we forget, we're like, oh no, I'm not gonna have anything to wear.

Like, that's literally what our brains say when it's the most ridiculous thing,

nobody, nobody's walking around naked, So I don't think that's actually gonna

happen, but yet we're worried about it.

I know we were, I remember one quick story then I want to, I want to define clutter.

We're, we're about to define what clutter is.

We were flying from Australia to New Zealand.

it was warm in Australia.

It was gonna be cold in New Zealand.

I didn't have a coat.

My wife had sort of a coat.

I was talking to the gal in the airplane.

I said, you know, where's like a, y'all have like a Walmart ish or something like

that, that I could go in New Zealand?

He goes, eh, there's some places.

I said, I, I really need to get a coat.

And he just looked over at me, he says.

I got one for you.

And I knew where he was.

He had already said where he was in New Zealand.

I said, oh, okay.

I said, yeah, we'll be there within a month or so.

Maybe we can stop in and have dinner.

He goes, no.

He goes, I've got the coat now for you.

I said, where is it?

And he pointed to the bin up above in the airplane and we got up off

the plane and he handed me a flight jacket that his son had just given him.

So I'm walking around with like the Navy or something, flight jacket.

People kept thinking I was in like the Air Force it kind of goes to my point

that I believe stuff's out there for us

when you needed It

It did.

It absolutely did.

And we were, you know, listen, from a financial standpoint, we

were less than broke at the time.

So it was a real blessing in so many ways.

But

so cool.

let's define what is clutter, because I think it might mean some

different things to different people.

Well, I love this.

Absolutely, right?

Like, I think you say clutter and people immediately feel judged.

I imagine this happens for you.

If you tell people you got rid of everything and you live in an rv, they,

think, oh, you don't wanna see my house.

they automatically feel judged.

But, you know, my definition of clutter is just anything that is in your

possession that isn't serving you.

Mm-hmm.

So if you love all that stuff in those drawers, right?

And you know what's in there, right?

That's the caveat.

You can't just be like, I love all my stuff because you probably

don't know what you have unless you've taken a look, right?

But if, if you are on board with keeping it, then it's actually not

clutter like, as far as I'm concerned.

anything that is in your possession that isn't serving you right, and

you get to decide what's serving you, it could be serving you because

you know it's a special memory.

or you, you know, you're keeping it for like, quote unquote insurance purposes.

You might need it, right?

Like, if you truly believe that, then it's actually not clutter, right?

But those things that you're keeping because, you know, you're afraid to let

them go, or you haven't looked in the box and you moved it 10 years ago and

you know all of that, that is clutter.

It's in your way.

you keep cursing it when you trip over it.

That's clutter.

So

my wife hates when I tell the story of helping her mother move multiple times.

We helped her move and I moved boxes that had garage sale on them

so many times they, they were a box that had garage sale, but we, we moved

them and moved them and moved them.

What are,

Mm-hmm.

let's, I think it's important 'cause there is the physical of this, I

mean, it's just the walking into a room or a place, a space and going,

there's a lot here

Mm-hmm.

but that's relative though.

I mean, for some people it might.

Be okay to have a lot there.

And some people may not,

may not want drawers.

Um,

Mm-hmm.

but what, talk about, I don't know if the emotional is what we should

talk about first or the mindset,

Mm-hmm.

I really do, and I have, this is kind of tough for me and I'm almost looking for

you to educate me a little bit because I'm fairly harsh in this area and maybe judgy.

And so I would love to understand more of the emotion and the

mindset that people go through that are going through this process.

That people that are holding onto things that aren't

Yes,

is that what

yes.

thinking?

or they've accumulated them,

Mm-hmm.

now they're going, okay, there's an issue

that needs to be dealt with.

Yeah.

I think it really, most of it, not all of it, but a big component is just fear.

You know?

it's fear.

It's fear that I might need it.

It is fear that I'm gonna miss it.

fear that, you know, this belonged to somebody and they're gone.

This is all I have left from them, I just can't bear to let that go.

Even though I don't look at it and I can't find it, and you know, I have,

you know, like it's just all fear.

there's other reasons too, right?

Like, so some people may have grown up, not having enough, or their

parents or grandparents were in the depression, so they were taught,

you know, we don't waste stuff.

Like we keep this stuff, we're gonna like, we wanna be prepared.

And so they are living in, you know, they're acting like it's 1945 or 19,

you know, 29, but they live in 2025 where we can order with one click

things are kind of cheap, right?

Clothing is like fast fashion, like you can get whatever you want.

So these two things create this perfect storm of a lot of stuff.

which does is not conducive.

So, so those are kind of some of the things that are going on.

Um, those are like the main issues, right?

And then you get, you add in, let's say overwhelm, you add in anxiety, which I

believe is at an all time high right now.

Uh, you add in a DHD, so people wanna clean up, right?

They wanna let go of stuff, They have no idea where to start,

and then they're kind of frozen.

They're, you know, they're like, I don't wanna do this.

Right?

And they get distracted and, you know, the clutter is distracting,

so it's like, it gets compounded.

So that is a factor too.

Um, and so all of these things together kind of make it really

hard for someone to, um, you know, to reverse the, the trend.

And, you know, with clutter, I believe that it's, you're either,

either actively maintaining and decluttering, or you are or you're not.

And if you are not, then you are accumulating, Which is only going

to, you know, make things look worse.

Yeah, I, that's actually, uh, exactly what I was about to ask.

It was a theory that I have that, that most of our society culture, first world,

especially marketing and all the business, they are pressing accumulation on us.

Mm-hmm.

And so

of course.

doing nothing or just staying static.

Is probably not an option because if you're not working at pushing back some

of that accumulation, it is going to

Mm-hmm.

accumulating.

Ha have you, so, so you could address that.

But I also wanna ask, have you ever looked at the history of this?

Is this a newer thing?

Like the last a hundred, 150 years?

It, has it been around, you know, 2000 years since Jesus was here?

You know, did the, you know, did, uh, did the Nation of Israel, they

carried a bunch of stuff out of Egypt.

Maybe they, you know what I mean?

What, what is this a, uh, is this a new thing?

Is this, is this a modern culture thing?

Yeah.

Um, so I, this is just my opinion, but I do believe this is

probably the last a hundred, 120

Hmm.

right?

Because

a hundred years ago, 150 years ago, people would have just like, just a handful of.

Outfits of clothing, right?

Clothing was expensive.

expensive.

That, that much, you know, that, that much, that many years ago.

Uh, and now things have, you know, technology makes things

cheaper, TVs, computers, whatever.

Like, like things.

And I'm not saying that our budgets aren't stretched 'cause that's not,

that's not what's going on here.

But, but in general, you know, the, the, the, the item of the outfit

of clothing that you buy today can cost a lot, like a fraction of what

it would cost a hundred years ago.

So I do believe that it's, it's more of a modern phenomenon.

Um, there is an element of, like, as humans, we are programmed to,

you know, to save for a rainy day.

Right?

That makes sense.

Right?

You don't, if you don't know when you're gonna be able to go hunting and, or you

know, is your harvest gonna come in?

You need to save some stuff up, right?

We need that.

There's that little, little bit of hoarding instinct that.

Survival.

Right.

So that is, that's just innate.

But I believe that just our current society has just exacerbated that

tendency and, and made it so that it just became in extreme right.

So

Hmm.

I, I do believe it's become a lot

more of a problem in the last, probably 30, 40 years than,

than it has been in the past.

I, I, I think primarily I was glancing at your website here,

primarily you are talking about stuff,

Mm-hmm.

but clutter also involves other things.

I think I saw a note, uh, about that somewhere.

It's, you know, it's time, it's life, it's, it's other things.

Talk about the things that are not stuff that can, that can get cluttered.

Yeah.

Well, it's like if you, you know, if you have a cluttered home, you

may have a hard time saying no.

Like, so people wanna give you their things, right?

They're like, oh, I don't need this.

Uh, you should take it.

Right?

Well, oh, well, oh, I don't know.

Like we feel like we can't say no to these things 'cause it would be rude.

Right?

Someone wants to give you something, you have to say yes.

Right?

So, um, there's kind of that aspect of people pleasing that comes in.

And then also, you know, like just.

Good things come your way.

So whether that's opportunities or, um, volunteer, you know,

experiences or, or new hobbies.

So time commitments.

So we do find that people have just a lot they pack in their calendar, right?

They're gonna pack in their, their garage.

They're also gonna pack in their calendar and, you know, just have so much going on.

and then wonder why they're feeling so stressed, right?

I think sometimes actually we do it, um, we are gonna pack in our spaces and, or,

you know, our, time or what's going on inside our heads because we don't wanna

think, like, we don't wanna stop and think about what's actually going on, right?

Like, if you cleared out your calendar and had a free day, then you might have

to face yourself and you might not like what you see, You might realize that,

you know, you wanna make some changes in your life and you're not happy.

So a lot of these things, the physical clutter and then also the, the, um.

I know.

Theoretical clutter.

The, the invisible clutter.

It's a distraction from really going on in your life.

Um, and you know, I understand

why some people don't wanna face it 'cause it could be painful, you

Well, and there's no doubt we have a very distracted society.

I can't pick my phone up here because it's my camera, but we,

we have so much coming at us

Yeah.

and I, I guess one thing I'm curious, your observation, I guess with, with people in

the club, and I don't know if you have a gauge for this or not, but I, is it one of

these things where if people are cluttered in one area, they are often cluttered

in many areas, or is it very segmented?

It's like, you know what, I got a hobby room that's just a mess.

Mm-hmm.

else, I'm fairly orderly.

That might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but I, I guess one of

the things I think about is time.

I'm been working very diligently over the last handful of years

just to keep my calendar very.

Open, you know, I typically we're recording on a Friday,

which is very unique for me.

Usually Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

That's the only time I do scheduled stuff.

And uh, and it's usually just in the afternoons or mid,

mid-morning to afternoon.

So what, what do you, do you see people that are cluttered in a lot of areas or is

it more segmented?

Yeah, I think it's actually a combination.

I think there are some people, and we have, uh, one of our coaches, she

jokes that, you know, her house was like if you came over to her house,

even before she started decluttering, wouldn't, you'd think, oh, you

know, she's got it all together.

She's super organized.

But she always said, you know, well, don't open a closet.

You know, don't open, you know, behind closed doors.

It was a different story.

So things are packed in.

So we do have some people like that, right?

They keep up their standards in, you know, maybe in their public areas of

their home, but then, you know, don't go upstairs or don't go in the basement.

Don't open the doors, don't look at my calendar.

Right?

So we have some of that.

And then we have people that are, you know, it just kind of spills over and,

and so like, it's like a ripple effect.

So, you know, first the kitchen gets messy and then they're like,

well, the kitchen is a mess.

And then they, they start not keeping up with the laundry and,

you know, and, and so on and so on.

So we, we do have a mix.

Um, I guess I would probably say that we have more people in

that second bucket that, that struggle with a number of areas.

And maybe they have, maybe they're great at work, right?

They're like, work gives them structure, right?

Because, you know, they need to be there on time.

They've got, you know, they have a boss to report to.

So, it's easier to fit in in that environment, whereas at home, you, you

make it up, you create the structure.

And that's really challenging.

That's one of the things that we, we give people is here's how you can

create your own structure, then you can operate more easily within that.

And, um.

You know, it's not just like figuring out every day you have to start over.

Right.

So

Yeah, I,

of what's going on there.

I think what we'll do is, we'll, we'll come back towards the tail end of the

conversation and try to give some tips and, um, some specific things that

people might do that are kind of facing some clutter, uh, in their lives.

But I would really, I, I, I, I love business journeys.

I love talking about the journeys that people have been on.

And I, I guess even before we get to the Declutter Decluttering Club, which

I think has had a few iterations, if I, if I remember our conversation, what,

what were you trained for to do college?

Just gimme some of, uh, Sarah, the early years, whatever you think

might, might be cool to share.

Yeah, gladly.

Yeah.

So this is my third business.

Um, I have been, I had a corporate job.

Uh, so I went to University of Pennsylvania, got a degree,

undergrad with the Wharton School, so I have a business degree, right.

and then I had a corporate job for six years, but then my oldest son

was born, so I thought, you know, like, this commute is for the birds.

I don't really like this anymore.

So I left that job and, uh, went out as on my own as an IT consultant, right?

So I did that for a few years.

Um, and then.

Decided, you know, this internet seems like a pretty cool thing.

maybe, maybe I should start my own internet business.

Um, and so I actually started a, an import business for German books, right?

Because my, my now ex-husband and I were speaking German with our kids.

And you know, I'm a book lover, so it's like we need books for these kids.

And so we did that.

I ran that for.

guess probably 12, 12 years.

Right?

That was an online business.

We had books, we had a bookstore in the basement.

I would ship 'em out and I learned so much and I learned how to build websites.

I learned like my first real taste of marketing and fulfillment and customer

service and, you know, learned how to, how to create my own structure, right?

Uh, from that business.

And I sold that business needed something to do because I, you know,

at that point I had four kids, uh, and I was homeschooling the kids,

but I kind of have a lot of energy.

So I thought, let's just start a, start a blog.

'cause I like to give advice, right?

I like to tell people how to do stuff.

I think I have answers.

And, um, the, the people that my friends at the time weren't really

interested in my advice, you know, like, have you ever noticed that?

Like your friends are like, yeah, that's great.

Like, I didn't ask you,

Family.

Family's usually not interested either.

It's usually strangers are more interested than people that are in your circle.

Yeah.

So when you get people who say, oh my gosh, that's such a great idea.

I did what you said, and it worked, you know, that's like the best feeling ever.

that is what has now turned into the decluttering Club.

Right.

And that started, uh, I guess about eight years ago I started that business um,

it's just grown and evolved and morphed, um, into, you know, where we are now with

just an absolutely thriving community.

So I, I'd love to know time.

What was the timeframes of the book business online?

I'm sitting here thinking Amazon, you're, you know, Sarah could

have been Sarah, could have been Bezos, you know, she could have.

But, um,

not quite as big as, as Jeff.

what, uh, what, what was, what was the timeframe of that?

What that, of that business?

The book business.

Yeah.

That was, uh, 2003 to 2012.

Yeah.

Okay.

So right after the.com bubble had burst and people were

picking up the, the pieces and

Mm-hmm.

like that.

Are you a, are you a tech person?

Would you be, would you be pretty proficient at, you mentioned

websites and things like that.

'cause a lot of people get intimidated by that with these

type businesses, but you seem,

doesn't bother you one bit.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm kind of a hack, right?

Like, I can, I can find my way around.

I actually think that is not always a good thing, you know?

Like if you can, if you can do some of these things, then you may be reluctant

to hire help, and maybe you're not quite as good as someone else would be.

But it does, it does help when, you know, when I'm, when I'm hiring someone

or when I need to do something, I'm like, I understand how this works.

So I definitely have kind of that, that mentality, that mindset.

I'm not at all trained in, you know, in tech, but, uh, I can

kind of find my way around.

I, I bet your light.

My wife, Gloria.

You figure things out.

Mm-hmm.

It's like if you've got something, you figure it out.

There are so many, like it is stupid easy to, to use the tools we have today.

I mean, I was coding, I was writing HTML in 2003, so you cannot tell

me that the technology is hard.

It's not, I mean, there's always, there's always things to work out, but, you know,

if it were easy, everybody would do it.

You know, if it, I, I heard this quote, I don't remember who said this, but,

you know, if it, if it were easy, you know, you would've done it by now.

Like, all the things that are worth doing are just not easy.

And whether that's decluttering or building a business,

um, you gotta be up for.

Right now, when, when we talked we, we talked a little bit of

details of your business, and I don't want us to go into that.

However, there could be some people that are hearing Declutter Decluttering

Club and think, oh, it's a nice little side business side hustle type deal.

It it is not, this is a very nice size business.

What, what can, or what are you willing to share maybe about the, um, the, the,

the size and scope of it at this stage?

What,

what are you comfortable sharing?

Because it's impressive.

thank you.

Thank you.

Now it's, um, yeah, people, people are shocked actually that

I make any money, you know, it's

I know.

It's like, oh, it's a little club.

You, you teach people how to clean up the kitchen.

And I, I, I tell my kids this, I'm like, listen, you guys get this for free.

People pay me for this.

You know, you should be grateful.

You know, and they, they roll their eyes.

But, um, no, I mean, we, serve thou, we have thousands of like, I guess

maybe you can do the math, right?

We serve thousands of members, um, at, you know, different price points

between $37 a month and, and up.

So, you know, you do the math there.

Um, you know, we're, we're doing very well.

Uh, we have a long ways to go, right?

I have some really big goals, but, um, but it is abs like I'm

taking this seriously, right?

This is not just a little thing.

we, we have all kinds of things in place.

Um, of the things my co one of my coaches mentioned recently was that

we, you know, whenever we run a call and we have multiple calls for our

members, we have two people on that call.

Like, there's so much that goes into just running.

An every day, you know, run of the mill call, it costs us like hundreds

of dollars just to put on one call.

And we do numerous calls every single month.

we have a whole team, you know, we've got, we've got lawyers, we've

got trademarks, we've got payroll.

There's, there's a lot going on.

Um, and, um.

I think it's just, it's important.

This is a really important message.

People keep coming to me and they say things like, you know, oh gosh,

it's so cool that you have such a, such a, um, a unique business.

Like think that this is like me, I don't know, like teaching people how

to hamsters or something, you know?

And I'm like, no, like everybody needs this.

You know?

And like, let's say 10% of the country is desperate for this knowledge.

Like literally, like, that is who I am talking to.

is not a little like thing that is a nice to have.

No, this is like, this is ruining people's lives, like on a, a tremendous scale.

that's the way I think about it.

Yeah, the, the thing that was so impressive too, we were sitting around

a table, we were chatting when we first met, and I think all of us had,

you know, just kind of met each other.

And

Yeah.

that anybody were none.

It wasn't the type of room where people were sizing people up, but you were,

Mm-hmm.

kinda curious about other people's business we're there

to learn and hopefully help and different things like that.

And, and, and, and I remember when it got to your turn, I was like, I,

I was, I was literally blown away.

You know, we were talking about memberships and things like that.

So it was, yes.

I mean, if anybody can do that math, they can, uh, they can come up with

some very, very impressive numbers.

I'm curious, you said you went to what many would consider one of the

top business schools in the country.

Mm-hmm.

much of what you were trained on there?

Would you say you are using and applying in this business?

You know what, 15?

I'm trying to do the math here.

15 years later.

20 years later or something like that.

Let's try 30.

Well, I was trying to be polite.

I was trying.

I, um, likehonestly, I really

don't.

Um, but I, I love that question because I really.

I'm sure there are things, right?

Like I, I did really enjoy my time in college, but, um, I mean, first

of all, business and internet businesses, they just didn't exist.

Like there was no

okay.

so couldn't have taught that.

Um, I probably learned lot of things in terms like accounting

fundamentals for sure,

Mm-hmm.

right?

So some,

some solid business fundamentals came through that.

Um, I didn't really take that many marketing courses.

Uh, I have.

Spent the last 30 years educating myself, you know, like one thing after another.

So I would say that the, the majority of what I use, like my skills now

is, is all on the job for sure.

I'm, I'm sure that's, you know, it's not a hundred percent, but, um, I just, you,

you can't compare to learning on the job.

Like this is when you get creative, this is when you, have to figure things out.

You know, there's no angry customers, there's no unhappy customers or

broken tech in a college course.

It just doesn't, you can't, you can't create that.

So,

So, so then what are you advising your children to do?

I'm just curious about this.

'cause see, I think you've got 'em in probably these ages where they're maybe

starting their lives and all that.

And you, I, I know you've got multiple kids, so you don't have to go through

each one, but I'm just, I'm just curious 'cause I, I, I look around at times and

I used to be, I'm very optimistic, but I'll look around and go, you know what?

I don't know that I really know what to tell people to do right now.

What, what are you telling your kids?

well, so I have one kid who's gonna be an engineer, so he's in college.

That makes perfect sense for him.

I have one kid who's in computer science, uh, and then I have two that are, um,

one's in eighth grade and one's just graduating, you know, and I mean, I

have told them that they don't have to go to college if they don't want to.

They do not believe me.

They're like, it's easy for you to say that you have an Ivy League degree mom.

And so they just really don't believe me.

But, I sort of feel like it's all just gonna work out, you know,

like I'm just not worried about it.

Like.

Really, I mean, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and guide them.

I'm gonna try and expose them to things that I think would be useful.

I've taken all of my kids on business trips now because I want

them to meet other entrepreneurs.

I want them to see, you know, like the world is a really big place.

People are doing some crazy stuff.

Like, there are some amazing, amazing businesses out there.

You know, they see me doing my work.

So, uh, I think that's kind of my, my goal is to just expose them to as

many ideas as I can and to the world and to travel and to try to make sure

that they don't just kind of pigeonhole themselves into thinking this is,

this is the what everybody does.

You know, you just go to college and then you go and get a job

and you're there for 40 years.

Like but not necessarily.

Right?

Like, I want them to know that they have options and I want them to be resourceful.

And, you know, how that works out for them is, is really gonna be up to them.

And I'm just gonna try and be available to them.

What's interesting is, uh, it just came to mind that we will often

clutter our lives with education.

Mm-hmm.

That's may not be needed or we think we're supposed to go to this

school because mama wants me to go

Yeah.

I, I agree.

If someone's gonna be an engineer, they need to go to engineering school.

I went to Georgia Tech.

I'm an engineer.

I don't do a lot of engineering, but, um, I've got clients that are

engineering companies and yeah, you need that engineering degree.

Work towards getting your pe, all that kinda stuff.

Mm-hmm.

uh, I, I've come to realize that one of the struggles I still deal, deal with

and my wife does also is information.

We actually gather too much information.

And I actually think education

can be similar.

That people just feel like they need all of this.

And you know what?

At some point you need to sit down.

This is a transition right here.

I'm gonna project it.

You need to just sit down and start writing a blog,

Huh?

which it sort of sounds like that's what you did.

And so the question I have is how intentional or purposeful

or goal, what was around

this timeframe when you said, I'm gonna start writing a blog and it's eventually

going to be an extremely successful membership model business, or I just

have some info and I just wanna type it out and get it out to the world?

Yeah, it was really just one thing leading to the next I I, I could never

have imagined what I. like I did want to have a successful business, right?

Like I, I was following some different influencers, you

know, probably 10 years ago.

Um, so I kind of wanted to be a quote unquote success, but there is

no way I could have predicted that it would look like this, right?

And I think if I had known, I would, I'd have been like, I'm out.

This is too hard.

Like, no, we're like this.

Like, no.

But um, so it was really just like one step at a time, right?

Like, okay, I'm gonna share some ideas.

Oh, this is kind of cool, you know?

And then maybe I learn, oh, you should start an email list.

'cause that's a great way to communicate with people.

I was like, oh, sounds good to me.

I'll do that.

Right?

And then built that.

And so really one thing led to another and I think that's been like.

When I do things that way, it is the most effective I think sometimes, you

know, like, I love thinking big and I think I, I'm not thinking big enough.

Um, but sometimes thinking big can be paralyzing, know?

So I think you have to be careful.

And like you said, um, if you were just consuming.

You know, and anything, whether it's food or information education, like that's,

that's not gonna get you anywhere.

It feels productive, know?

It feels, it feels great.

Oh, I got, you know, I know how to do these things, but you don't like, like,

that doesn't count for anything until you've actually gone out and done it.

So, I am a huge fan of let's just try stuff.

Let's, let's launch it in a weekend.

Like, what's the simplest way to do things?

I think people sit around for way too long, way too long, um, instead

of just trying things out, right?

Because we're, we're just kind of afraid of rejection, right?

That's why people don't, don't do things is 'cause they think they're gonna fail.

And, uh, you know, they might, but then they learn something and

then they can try again, right?

If you could fail 10 times in the space of time that someone else is learning,

you are, you are a million, steps ahead.

Um, and that's okay, right?

That is literally how you build a business despite figuring out what doesn't work.

I, I think a lot of people also, when they start doing something like

that, they're attempting to monetize as quickly as possible because, uh,

you know, they need to put food on the table or something like that.

Was there any of that for you?

Did you have other income streams?

What, what?

Did you feel pressure to make it work and make it work quick, or

were you able to be patient anyway?

I, there's a lot of things there, but a, a lot of it might come down to how

quickly did you feel pressure to monetize?

Well, so I was probably making maybe $30,000 when I got divorced, and so I

was like, oh, okay, well, so either this needs to start producing some money or I

just didn't need to go get a job, Like,

I

I was like, that's cool.

I could

do that.

You know, I can go get a job.

Like that was never.

That was never just gonna be like a, a disaster for me.

Uh, I didn't want to Right.

But I was like, if this doesn't work, no big deal.

Right?

It's cool.

I will just, I will go work at Starbucks and then I'll figure out my life.

So, so there was definitely some pressure, right?

But it's not like I had to go make a million dollars the first year.

I think sometimes people just, they compare themselves.

They're like, Ooh, you know, they look at and they go, oh, Tony Robbins is

doing this, so I should do that too.

No, you shouldn't.

Like, he's, he is, you can't compare where you are to where someone else is that

has been doing this for that much longer.

like, you're not gonna do the same things like at all.

So I think, I think that it is important to give yourself time

to, to figure things out, you know?

And if that's six months, if that's a year, if that's three months, know, like.

Maybe you can get by with, you know, a thousand dollars or $2,000.

That's, it's not hard to make $2,000.

Right.

Making a hundred thousand dollars in your first year.

That might be like way outta reach.

But if you're like, okay, how can I make a couple thousand bucks?

It's not hard to do.

Hmm.

At what point did you look at it and go, Hmm, I, I think we've got something here.

This actually is, we're getting some traction.

We've got some people that are, that are joining, joining us.

What, what, when do you, you said eight years is kind of when you started, at

what point did you go, this is working?

I mean, you know, it's hilarious because I was probably making a lot of

money way before I had that thought.

In fact, I got coached on this, I think it was three years ago.

Uh, because I wasn't hitting my goals right.

And I, I didn't, I wasn't willing to see the success that we were having.

So, you know, our customers were happy, things were working well, and I was

still thinking, you know, it's just not working the way I want it to work.

And, um, got coached on that and it turns out I, I realized, oh, actually,

it, it's absolutely working right?

It was kind of hilarious because it just really flipped my thinking

and I thought, oh, everything Like, is it, is it neat and tidy?

Is it all wrapped up in a bow?

Like, no, not at all.

But, but like, everything is going well.

Customers are happy, you know, we're making money, we're profitable.

You know, like, like those are all really important things.

So I would say probably three years ago was when I started to feel that way.

Um,

it was a five.

It was, it was a five year

yeah.

before you said, Hmm, this is, this is doing something.

One of the things Sarah is.

could have, I could have thought that two or three years before then,

but I just didn't see it that way.

You know?

I was like real critical.

Like we all have, I, I'm sure you do too, have high standards.

Right?

And we're just not happy.

We're never, but that's not a good thing.

It's not a good thing to not notice your success.

Well, it, it is, but that really did, boy, you're, you're setting

me up for my next question.

This is

Ooh.

gonna be a home run.

I think I, as I've been sitting here talking to you and I, and

we've talked a couple other times, I notice how comfortable you are

or you appear to be in being you.

And, um, and I'm curious to what

number one do you agree with, with that observation and number two,

to, what do you attribute that to?

I agree.

I, I totally agree.

I think it wasn't always way.

you

Hmm.

a lot of opportunities, even like, what,

five or six, six years ago?

Was it 20, 20 19?

I was one of, um, a small number of people that, that was flown to

at the Facebook Community Summit.

Like Facebook had this huge event, and, and I was actually one of

like 10 people that was honored.

Uh, you know, they had picked us to, to, to, to test out some new features.

And I was, had all this press and I was still like, I can't, like stop

looking at me, like, don't, like, I, I don't know what to do with this.

This is, this is very uncomfortable.

But I think over time I've just like started to accept that like, this is

who I am and I do have a big mission.

So, um, I think over time it has gotten easier.

What was, what was the question?

Is that mean?

What was the second question?

Why,

of thought.

Why, why, What do you attribute it to?

Just being comfortable.

I mean, I don't, you don't seem like you're striving.

You don't seem like you're I'm, and that is in no way saying

there's not stuff going on.

Okay.

I am not in any way saying everything's perfect in your life.

What I'm saying is you just.

Seem, this is a spiritual term for me.

You seem at peace and you seem at rest.

You, uh, you, you've got stuff going on, but you're just, you're,

Mm-hmm.

I was just wondering what you might attribute that to.

Is there any practices?

Is there anything that you do?

Are you aware of it?

Um, anyway,

Yeah.

Um, well, I have just done, I have done so much work, so much work on, you know,

on myself, on mindset, um, and, you know, I mean, maybe it gets a little

bit back to what I said about my kids.

I'm like, everything is gonna work out fine.

I'm just, I

I.

just not worried about like, a lot of

things anymore.

and I think that just lets me show up like with truth and honesty you know,

about who I am, about what's going on, about what I can do, you know, about

what, what, what's going on in the world.

It lets me again be non-judgmental.

so I think, I think there's that, I think, I just think that we worry so needlessly,

you know, like there's just so much worrying going on in the world and worry

is a natural human emotion, you know?

um.

I think if you just have faith, like, like we're just, we're just specs

floating on, on a, a ball of rock.

You know?

Like, like, you know, if you, if you have faith, then like,

what's there to worry about?

You know, God has it all sorted out.

Like, like, why am I worried?

It's, it's kind of comical, you know, when you think about it.

It, it it,

done all of that work.

that's good.

And.

It's so, it's so interesting how when I get a question that pop in

my mind and then you'll answer it before I actually get to the question.

'cause I was about to ask, I sometimes define faith at its root as believing

that everything's gonna be okay.

Mm-hmm.

then you, you went there, so that's awesome.

So, uh,

Yeah.

any, any,

it's not okay.

Like

sometimes it's not okay and it's still like, it's still okay.

it is still okay, especially when we look at timeframes.

You, it's like, yeah, some things are short term, like, you know, when we got

on the call here, I said, you know what?

I'm dealing with some of this crud.

I'm gonna power through.

My eyes are glassy, my voice sounds a little bit blah.

But, you know, and my wife and I are real important when we do this,

we, we don't make decisions while we're not feeling well or we're

fatigued because we know it'll pass.

I mean, and we were talking this morning, how long have we been sick?

She goes, it's only been a couple days.

I'm going, good.

Gosh.

It seems like it's been a long time, but

Been months.

yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anything else?

Anything else you wanna share

about your business

Mm-hmm.

to maybe people that might be listening in that might be business owners or

anything before I finish up with a few questions about specifically decluttering.

Hmm.

Yeah, I think I think people are just so reluctant to, uh, to try things, you know?

I think that's one of the things that I do really well and I always have,

you know, like, what's the worst that can, if people are like, oh, I remember

I coached someone at one point, they were like, I'm just really worried

about like starting my Facebook group.

And I was like, dude, no one is listening you.

You're fine.

Like, I promise you no one is even noticing.

So just do your thing, it out.

You know, start with one person.

Like, we just, we just put all this pressure on ourselves to,

to be perfect and to do it right.

And, you know, nobody's watching at the beginning.

And then when they are watching, like, you know, I mean, I am, I am

such a huge fan of making mistakes.

Like I talk about this all the time.

Maybe this is the, maybe this is the thing.

Okay.

Like, what is so bad about being wrong, right?

Like, what if you're wrong?

Like, what if you were okay with being wrong?

There is incredible freedom.

Incredible freedom right now.

We don't have to defend ourselves.

We don't have to fight.

We don't have to, we don't have to be right?

You know?

And doesn't mean we don't wanna be right?

Of course we wanna be right.

Of course we wanna do things well, like, of course I do.

But also, just like, be okay if you screw up, right?

If you're not afraid of screwing up, making a mistake, making someone

unhappy, you're gonna do, do a million times more than someone who

is like, trying to do it all right?

Like, it's just, it's, it's, it's impossible.

So just like be willing to screw up and make mistakes.

And this is a probably a message that I need to remember

because, I struggle with it too.

But, um, I think there's so much freedom and, and like being okay with being wrong.

Why not?

Yeah, I think that's good.

It goes back to what we talked about, faith, everything's gonna be okay.

And I've had some conversations on recent podcasts about the word risk and how we

have become a society, a culture that we don't, we can't really evaluate risk.

Well, and I mean one of, one of the things, and I'm sure you probably are

able to think about this, is like, what's the worst thing that can happen?

Mm-hmm.

What is the worst thing that can happen if you write a few blog posts and

what's the worst thing that can happen?

You know, what is anyone,

your

is anyone going to.

Someone laughs at you, the internet trolls show up and, and you know, and

I'm always like, well, they're just bots.

Like, they're not actually not even real people.

Like that's my always my thought, you know, some people are afraid

of going viral, and I'm like, why?

That's hilarious.

You know, like these, these people, it's just all engagement.

I mean, there's so much I could say there.

Um, yeah.

What's the worst that can happen?

People yell at you like, okay, you're not dead.

Like,

and and

you're not gonna care anyways.

So,

that's right.

I mean, so I, I don't, I don't think anyone's lost, you know, limbs or

their life or anything like that, but yeah, I mean, it's just, come on.

Um, what are, what are, when someone comes into the decluttering club,

Mm-hmm.

and, and what I'd love to do is maybe walk through how they come in

Mm-hmm.

and what are some things they could expect early on, and we can talk about

where they need to go to find all that.

What, what are some things they could expect when they come into the club?

Yeah.

So the first thing that we teach everybody, our very first lesson is

what we call kitchen zero, right?

Because the kitchen is, you know, where you spend most of your time,

a lot of your time, uh, and any work that you're gonna do in your

kitchen is gonna pay off, right?

It's gonna have this ripple effect.

So we teach our members how to do what we call kitchen zero, which really just

means like, what is the one, or what are the one or two things that you're

willing to do in your kitchen every day?

And that is the emphasis every day, right?

And everybody comes back and they're like, oh, there's 20 things that I have to do.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

You won't do those every day, right?

I need you to tell me one or two things.

So, so we teach 'em how to do that, and then they do it every

day and we coach them through that.

And then over time, they literally basically have a brand new kitchen because

they start taking care of it regularly.

And then, you know, it's, it's just awesome.

So that's the first thing that we do.

But we're really big on, you know, on what we call baby steps and, you

know, on working 10 minutes at a time.

Because again, if you're showing up and you're overwhelmed,

you have a lot of work to do.

You think you need to clear your schedule for the next, you know,

three months and just like.

Torture yourself by getting the shovel in the dumpster.

And nobody wants to do that.

That's, no, nobody's signing up for that.

So we, we really work hard on and convincing people, 10 minutes, give

me 10 minutes, 10 minutes today, 10 minutes tomorrow, 10 minutes later.

Right?

It will add up over time.

and that helps people to overcome their perfectionism, their A DHD,

you know, they're overwhelmed, right?

So those are kind of the two, two, like really, uh,

introductory types of things we do.

We have a really strong community.

We match people up with buddies.

so they feel, they feel like they're not alone, right?

They feel, oh, other people have these problems, right?

We can talk about them.

okay to, it's okay to be real, right?

Like, we're all about real, real talk.

Um, we.

celebrate the wins, but we're also there.

You know, someone loses a husband, loses a child, loses their

job, they're sick, whatever.

We're there for that.

You know, like that's, that's a really important thing.

And so that's what we're all about.

Um, and I think, I think people realize it.

And so it's, it's real powerful.

You at the beginning you talked about how you don't really judge people.

I, I think the community seems like it's adopted.

That seems like a safe space.

Would that be accurate?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

So where can people find it?

Tell people I've got it pulled up here, but go ahead and you tell 'em.

We'll, we'll include all that in the notes and I've got one more question.

That'll be a

Okay.

nice one we can wrap up with.

Yeah, so you can find us on social.

We're on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube.

Um, handle is the, the Decluttering Club.

Uh, you can just search us up, um, or you can go to our blog or our

website, the decluttering club.com.

Um, we do have a free training that you can sign up for some

free decluttering challenges.

10 minutes is all you need.

Um, it's a really great way to get started, but social is really my jam.

I'm, I am, it's all me on social media, at least right now.

and I love, it's just so much fun for me.

So that is where I hang out.

That actually calls me to think of another question to ask that I wasn't gonna ask.

How do you keep social media from cluttering up your life?

Is that a hard, I said, you know that 'cause social media

clutters a lot of our lives,

It really does.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I do not let my phone ding.

My phone does not like, does not call the shots.

I

so no notifica, no notifications.

I don't have any notifications either.

like, you know, texts.

But, um, yeah, no no notifications.

I turn up all those badges, right.

So like none of that happens 'cause I do not want my phone

to dictate when I look at it.

Um, but, um, I. I if some great stuff going on in your life, then, then social

media is not as much of a poll right now.

I, I probably, I think I would appreciate like, using social media less than I do.

you know, and it's like, oh, it's for business, right?

So it's kind of a convenient excuse, but um, at some point you kind of get

over it, you know, it, it's boring over time, like it kind of loses its thrill.

And I've done a lot of research and a lot of work on, on dopamine and,

and kind of the effect that has.

So I'm very aware of it and I don't want it to, to have that impact on me.

so I think that's, that's kind of it.

Like, you know, there was a time when, you know, I was going viral a lot, reach,

I was reaching like millions of people.

I still am.

But um, that really pulled me in.

And then I realized, you know, like I. what, like, who cares?

You know, I, I don't want this to be like all I think about, right?

Because you can reach lots of people and still not have an impact.

So what gets that?

Like, that's, that's no fun either.

So

Hmm.

just keeping it in perspective is the most important thing.

But

turn off those notifications.

They are their vile, they have to go, they're the devil.

I know my wife really wishes I would have sounds on.

I don't have any sounds.

I don't have, my phone doesn't ring texts, no notifications,

Uh

I go to my phone when I want to go to it.

It doesn't call me in, but I do go to it often, which is an issue.

Sarah, let's, um, someone, let's just say someone's been drawn into.

This episode with the title that probably has something about

decluttering in it, I'm guessing.

And they've hung with us this whole time, but they still are a bit

overwhelmed and, and they are really hopeful or wanting to, to get better.

I'm gonna give you just, you know, whatever, 30 seconds, a

minute, whatever you'd like.

I would like for you to speak directly to that person that still feels as

if they may not be able to do it.

So my last thing, if you could just speak to them and help someone

who believes that they can't

hmm.

declutter their life.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I, I sometimes it is hard to believe that you could do it right.

But I, and, and in that case, you could just borrow my belief because I have seen

people who identify as hoarders, right?

We had one woman who, um, she had her room, her bedroom was like

full of boxes, uh, and she was.

As overwhelmed as you could get.

Really?

She went through and she would just do like an inch at a time, you know, take

a box, do an in, like, sort through an inch, and she got through all of

the boxes, the bedroom was cleared, and, then she went onto the kitchen.

She learned kitchen zero, right?

So, I mean, of course it's overwhelming, right?

I think sometimes we feel like I shouldn't be overwhelmed, you know?

But of course you're overwhelmed, right?

If your house is full of stuff, you're gonna be overwhelmed.

That makes perfect sense.

It's not a surprise, right?

When, when we realize, oh, this is, this is a normal

reaction, uh, to the situation.

Like, we can relax, right?

And, um, you know, if you are dealing with a lot of clutter.

You don't, if you knew how to fix it, you would've done it right?

Like, so of course you don't know how to fix it, but I do.

Right?

I do.

And I have thousands of people are success stories.

So just come on and let us help you.

we will show you the way, we will give to you step by step.

Right?

You cannot, you can't imagine like the whole journey.

And also you don't have to, all you have to do is get started, right?

I mean, we've, that's kind of been a little bit of the theme today is, you

know, just, just do one thing and then do the next, and then do the next,

and eventually you will get there.

Like you will as long as you don't stop.

That's the only prerequisite.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Thank you Sarah.

What a great conversation.

I've enjoyed it.

Go check out the Decluttering Club, especially if you believe it fits you.

I think, I think some people should go take a peek just at what

you're doing there business, even if they're a business person and

wanna see some cool stuff going on.

definitely if they believe they fit into that group that needs to

declutter, check it out@thedeclutteringclub.com.

We here, we're Seek Go create.

We've got new episodes every Monday.

Thankful for people that are watching commenting over on YouTube and

listening in on all the platforms.

Thank you for all that you are doing.

We appreciate it will see everyone next week.