Paul Laursen (00:00)

on one day of poor HRV in the tank, they switched the session from high intensity

to an aerobic session. That's the first thing that they did. And then if HRV, again, the next day was still in the tank, they switched to complete rest.

Paul Warloski (00:45)

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. Heart rate variability or HRV is one of the most fascinating developments in endurance training, offering a window into your body's actual recovery status rather than just how hard you think you should be training. Think of HRV as your body's real time report card instead of guessing whether you're ready for that killer interval session.

HRV might be able to tell you whether your nervous system is actually primed for high intensity work or you need some recovery. Just as HRV can reveal when you're pushing too hard, it could also guide you towards proven strategies from frequency breathing to sleep optimization that can lift your HRV out of the gutter and into the sweet spot where real athletic breakthrough happens.

So let's go back a couple of steps. We've done an episode on HRV before, but let's review what exactly is HRV and why should endurance athletes care about it beyond just heart rate monitoring.

Paul Laursen (01:51)

Yeah, awesome, Paul. So I'll start in there. HRV stands for heart rate variability. And we're actually looking at the variation beat to beat in your heartbeat. I think I've mentioned it before, but.

when you first look back, step back and you think about your heart rate, it's like a clock, it's going tick tock, tick tock. And it's with this consistent metronome like, frequency, but

Marjaana (02:09)

like beautiful word.

Paul Laursen (02:16)

nothing could be farther from the truth, at least in the healthy standpoint where it is actually quite variable and a variable heart rate, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

is actually like a really positive thing. And it's indicating that you're in one of the two nervous system emphases that we swing back and forth with. We go back and forth between our sympathetic fight or flight nervous system, right? And when you're exercising is the classic example. That is when it's all on, right? Think of high intensity interval training.

you're fully on the swing on the side into the sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight, right? A bear is chasing you or whatever. Conversely, when you are sleeping and you're sleeping well and you're super recovered, that's swinging on the opposite side of the pendulum and it is extremely variable at that point. Now it is the parasympathetic system, our rest and digest nervous system.

Marjaana (02:57)

you you

Paul Laursen (03:16)

that is doing all the things to repair us and recover us. So that's why it's important. That's what it is. what the, I'll just kind of continue, but what the science has discovered for the last 30 years or so, 20 or 30 years as this has evolved, is that it is a really good indicator of when you are going to actually adapt to your training. In the past, and we think of with just static plans,

you would do your high intensity interval training whenever it is on the plan. But what the reality is, is you're only going to respond to that interval training when you're in a, when you have good readiness, we call it for training. And that is, so if you can actually train hard when you are ready for hard training, it's a faster road to Rome.

compared to if you were going to just do that session and you're already kind of in a stressed situation. And that's, yeah, that's the fundamental gist of it.

Paul Warloski (04:16)

What is the difference then between using HRV as a training guide versus traditional periodized plans? So you're looking at whether you're ready on an individual day?

Paul Laursen (04:29)

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And the studies have actually shown this, Paul, and they're called HRV guided training studies. there has been, geez, they did a meta-analysis on it. And I think there were already at least 20 of these studies. And these are not easy studies to do, as you can imagine. you actually have to, what they found is that you get a better training response when you do your hard sessions under a high parasympathetic background.

or at least normal and compared to like a classic, static plan training program, periodized. That's what they would always compare it to. And the study showed that when you do it that way, you get more bang for buck. You get a greater adaptation or a greater increase in your fitness level. And that's the difference between doing the two. So we know that...

HRV guided training is ultimately a faster road to Rome using this method.

Paul Warloski (05:24)

So should we be measuring HRV every morning or at night and what factors can throw off those measurements like sleep or stress

or illness and you know I know for me sleep is my biggest one for HRV if I don't get a good night's sleep my HRV tends to be in the tank.

Paul Laursen (05:41)

100 % Paul, they are so tightly coupled, it's uncanny. It's just like that is the key thing. If we could say one thing that HRV is linked to, it's a good quality sleep. You sleep well, then you're gonna have a higher probability of having a raised

HRV and a raised HRV means ultimately more variation more parasympathetic work and So yeah, that's that's the trick and it's of course MJ and everyone will know it's it's easier said than done It's there's no guarantees that you're have a good night of sleep even though you might be trying your body might be You know doing something that you're not

you're not as that cool about at the end of the day, right? Unless we could talk about, you know, potentially perimenopause or these sorts of things, right? Like this is, these are, there's hormonal challenges that are the reality of life and this is, and then there's, there's context and things outside of our control. We just have to do the best that we can under any given circumstance.

But this HRV is just one more signal that we can kind of pay attention to to get confirmation ultimately that in terms of how we confirm our feelings. Now, maybe people don't need that. Some of us do. Helps for some of us. But yeah, that helps guide us in terms of what the right training is to do on any given day. And maybe that's a really good leaping point. ⁓

to say to ourselves, what is the right training to do if I do have a low HRV, right? Or if I, and if potentially if it's chronically down there. Well, the answer is not HIIT training at that point. That's not what the research would support, as I just mentioned. It's more aerobic training, recovery training, zone one, zone two, and many different other mechanisms.

methods we could talk about later on in terms of what are some other methods to raise that HRV and they might not include exercise.

Marjaana (07:47)

I want to double tap on the perimenopause or ⁓ menstrual cycle actually and we know that

research doesn't support a training according to your menstrual cycle. But ⁓ if you're tracking your menstrual cycle and perimenopausal symptoms, and you notice that your HRV drops regularly during certain periods, like it does for me, like right before my periods, HRV tanks, I sleep worse, and it tanks. so

Paul Laursen (07:58)

you

Paul Warloski (08:19)

Hmm.

Marjaana (08:23)

then you can kind of evaluate if

you are better off doing aerobic block there while your HRV is low and you can't sleep. So unfortunately, that's something that I deal with every month. It just tanks. But then I know when my period starts, it will get back to normal again. But it's kind of...

Paul Laursen (08:27)

you you

Marjaana (08:48)

It's kind of annoying. Okay.

Paul Laursen (08:50)

Yeah, for sure. And you know, that echoes a lot of the work that Dr. Madeline Taylor from the Training Science podcast and the Fendura study came on and she said exactly that. You've got to, you know, really, it's very individual in all females around the influence of that menstrual cycle. But there are these individual times, times of life, et cetera, like perimenopause, where we

You really have to look to your own individual symptoms and adjust your training according to that. And then HRV could be one tool in the toolbox to kind of monitor and give you confirmation that you're making the right call on any given day.

Marjaana (09:31)

But what happens when you're doing methods that should increase your HRV and it's not working? How fast do you think you could expect HRV to bounce back?

Paul Warloski (09:31)

you

Paul Laursen (09:45)

I think it's so individual. Honestly, think it's just, and I think if one method isn't working, we try another one, right? So cold water immersion is a fantastic one. And I know you play with that one from time to time.

Marjaana (09:52)

. .

Paul Laursen (09:59)

Getting outdoors and getting into the environment is fantastic. Talking with other human beings is another one you should also always consider as well, face to face and not just over the internet. And check your nutrition. Nutrition is also tightly linked.

So whole food nutrition, are we doing that?

and then of course aerobic training is a big one. Sauna as well too, right? Because think about what sauna does. Sauna bath will actually cause for a plasma volume expansion, right? And your plasma volume, that's the water component of your cardiovascular system, is also tightly coupled.

Marjaana (10:36)

.

Paul Laursen (10:37)

to your heart rate and your heart rate variability as well, right? Like it creates like a vasodilation in terms of its rebound adaptation effect through all the capillaries and the blood vessels in your body. like there's, you just keep hitting, you just keep hitting the issue with all the different methods

Marjaana (10:38)

you

Paul Laursen (10:57)

that you know and...

and it's of course, it's so easy to say and much harder to do, right? We know that, you if you're driving along on the highway right now and you're listening to us, you know, we know that that context is completely different, right? Like you're saying to me, so when can I get access to any of those different things in my life? And I get it, it's not available for everyone. But, you know, until you can, then what is one thing you can do, right? Can we do, can we work on meditation at one point in the day? Can we work on

controlled breathing techniques, right? That, you know, slowing our breathing down. All of these things that we know are linking back to the nervous system. And, you know, again, swapping on the workout wizard or whatever from your high intensity session that you might want to kill and smash because you really feel you need that. But maybe you need to try to go easier and lengthen that using an easy bit of exercise in nature.

So there's a lot there, and there's no perfect solution. But those are things that I would just recommend you keep trying.

Paul Warloski (12:02)

How do you differentiate between a low HRV that's temporary, that kind of drops because of training stress, and genuinely concerning low HRV? Is there a, is it a week of low HRV readings? Is it a couple of days? I mean, how would you?

How would you differentiate those?

Paul Laursen (12:25)

Yeah, it's a tough question and because the honest truth is you can't you can't ever 100 % know what it's about

Paul Warloski (12:30)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (12:35)

because all HRV can do is get a global assessment of what HRV is doing. And HRV, linking to your nervous system, is looking at everything, all your life's situation, including the exercise, including your sleep, including your diet, including your global stress. And it's just an all-encompassing variable.

So where you get insight is, and this is, know, again, credit to Marco Altini of HRV for Training, who writes a fantastic regular blog and sub stack on all of this stuff, which I highly recommend you check out and follow. But it's, you know, it's context over content, like we always say. the context is what you always have to be taking into account. You have to be looking at the big picture.

And that's what you can do with Athletica And it's the, again, the, the phenomenal thing that's happening now with our AI coach, which is looking at so many different factors in your training from your, actual training that you're doing to the comments that you're writing to your history, your training history, your life history, the comment history, the semantics, the how training's feeling. of course, HRV sleep and heart rate in the recovery profile.

So the more context that we have around your overall big picture, you start to get a little bit more insight into what's actually having the effect on you in any given moment to start to answer that question that you just asked, Paul. And that's the only way you know. You don't really, but you try to do your best to take a Google Earth standpoint on what sort of the situation is.

MJ's a perfect example right here, right? Where she's realized, she knows her big picture, she's very experienced with all this, but she knows that the issue that she's having right now with her own low HRV relates probably, know, 95 % probably to her perimenopause issue that she can't do much about. She's got to live with this. And she's doing all she can around that, but she knows that's the big challenge.

Paul Warloski (14:43)

Yeah, so you've mentioned a couple of different things that we can do to deal with a chronically low HRV.

What role do do stress management techniques play in HRV improvement like yoga or meditation?

Marjaana (14:58)

Can I jump in there? ⁓ So my HRV has tanked. It's been tanked since around 20th of December. So over a month.

Paul Laursen (14:59)

100 % wish you would

Paul Warloski (15:00)

Yeah, please.

Marjaana (15:13)

And I've tried rest, I've tried just like easy walking. If you follow me on Strava, you'll see that I have not done much. And then I've added yoga and breath techniques. I'm waiting for our, we built a sauna last weekend, but we're waiting for the heater and then we have an ice bath there. I've done some floating and nothing seems to be working.

But I also have a very high stress work situation now. it's a, it's a kind of like a double whammy. so even like, because work stress is so high, even the, the methods that I'm trying to improve my HRV is not working, but I swear,

Paul Laursen (15:40)

you you

Marjaana (16:00)

like I can tackle my everyday life a little better when I do some breathing and yoga. So even though it's not.

Paul Warloski (16:03)

Mm-hmm.

Marjaana (16:07)

you know, kicking in on the higher HRV, it's making me, you know, tackle everyday life a little bit better. Okay.

Paul Laursen (16:17)

Yeah, a thank you

for revealing that, and what a perfect example that I'm sure lots of listeners will get insight into.

Paul Warloski (16:25)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (16:26)

But that's how

you do it. You've recognized your context. You're doing all the little tricks that you possibly can. And even you, with all you know, are still challenged. So that should also give the listener that's maybe struggling also some support to know that they're not alone.

Marjaana (16:43)

Mm

Paul Warloski (16:45)

Yeah, you just keep chipping away at it. And I think that's part of that process. You're making it, you're surviving the days and you've gotten at least that far. Are you trying

nutrition or hydration or any kind of specific supplements to deal with your HRV?

Marjaana (17:01)

Well, the only thing I would say is I take magnesium before bed and valerian root to improve my sleep. But other than that, I'm following my whole food nutrition. No alcohol, because that just messes up my sleep.

But nothing specific. Thank

Paul Warloski (17:20)

Is there a relation to nutrition and hydration and supplements, with HRV?

Paul Laursen (17:26)

Yeah, there is. And actually, if you go, one thing I should also mention, there's another resource, and it's right on the Athletica app now. So remember that the new Athletica experience, we have a Athletica U certificate, one that you can take. And the recovery specific lecture talks a lot about all of this stuff, right? ⁓

So yeah, and that one of the examples on that lecture is an individual that made a massive change in their diet. So they went from a standard, let's just call it a standard American diet philosophy to more of a whole food diet that MJ is talking about. And they saw an association.

with a large rise in their HRV. So it is certainly possible. again, it's not possibly not always one thing, but that was the effect in that individual. And yeah, and again, these are associations, these are correlations and not necessarily a causation. But I think with all of these things, there's, you know, got to kind of like what we're getting at, like,

how many different nails can you HIIT that you know are gonna create your foundation that you're trying to form, right? So nutrition should certainly be one of the nails that you're trying to HIIT. And you should, in general, if it's solid and whole food, it's hard to go wrong with that. And it should be one thing that you...

that should be affecting a positive outcome in your HRV.

Paul Warloski (19:11)

Hmm. Okay. So you mentioned that Marjaana and others should kind of rethink their training in terms of skipping HIIT and getting into aerobic kind of thing. What's the difference and how do you know whether you can do aerobic training, do some active recovery or a complete rest day? What's the kind of a guideline for that?

Paul Laursen (19:33)

Awesome question. So I would almost go to the HRV guided training studies and what they did in those studies usually, maybe not every single one of them, but the majority when I'm reading the philosophy that they took was that on one day of poor HRV in the tank, they switched the session from high intensity or quality, whatever you want to call it,

to an aerobic session. That's the first thing that they did. And then if HRV, again, the next day was still in the tank, they switched to complete rest. So in other words, because what the research finds and even the practical findings, so this is again, back to Dan Plews and the successful New Zealand rowing program, what they did was they did this exact sort of thing, right? Like they...

So Dan was basically, you can imagine he was the sports scientist that's guiding all the coaches. New Zealand is one of the top rowing nations in the world, multi-gold medals. So basically what he's doing with the coaches is he's taking that HRV. This is back old school too, when he had to, the athlete would actually have to wear the chest strap for five minutes in the polar one and then send Dan the data and then Dan analyzes it basically according to the same methods that you get in Athletica.

And he would then give the coach the outcome of the situation and then the coach would kind of swap that athlete session to aerobic training. But if it remained in the tank, they would swap to complete rest eventually as well. So same in the HRV guided training studies, same with Plews's methods, with the New Zealand rowing squad. And that's, yeah, that's kind of what

what I would do as well, So it's, yeah, follow that in general.

Paul Warloski (21:22)

And then Marjaana, what have you been trying to do with yours when it's chronically in the tank? Are you sticking to aerobic training for the most part? Or are you taking more rest days off?

Marjaana (21:30)

Mm.

I have tried different things. I rarely take like a complete day off because there's always a dog waiting for a walk. that's at least at least I'm walking. But yeah, it's mostly Aerobic now trying to keep heart rate low.

Paul Laursen (21:54)

And I would, maybe I should just even add, I would include walking.

like low zone one, I would say that would even be superior to complete rest. There's so many benefits of zone one training, right? So just like movement in general. maybe I'll even, like that's my problem, my practical recommendation, just what exactly what MJ is doing. yeah, not sitting on the couch per se, as that's probably, actually even be making it worse.

I think that's that light movement is probably really beneficial.

Marjaana (22:25)

Can we talk about that? like sitting on the couch.

doing nothing as an endurance athlete. What does it do to your mental health? It just worsens the whole thing. You're worried, why is my HRV tanked? Or I should probably take a rest day, right? That's what people recommend. But then you're sitting there on the couch and it's itching to do something, itching to go work out. And then you're putting yourself into this mental roller coaster.

Paul Warloski (22:34)

⁓ you knew.

Marjaana (22:57)

You're like, you want to go train, but then you're like, no, no, I got to take a day off. And like, I don't know about you, but like I get so restless and go on the mental roller coaster. do you think? Is it just me?

Paul Laursen (23:12)

Yeah. No, no, I think you're spot on.

We should also talk about the methods that we use. We haven't really laid that out in Athletica. And again, back to these are best practice uses. This is what Dan Plews in the New Zealand Rolling Squad used, is what Marco Altini adopted for HRV for training, and now this is what Athletica uses as well to give you recommendations.

Paul Warloski (23:21)

Yeah. Thank

Paul Laursen (23:37)

And there's two key variables that it's looking at relative to your...

to your data, your HRV. And again, the best method is for you just to non-invasively monitor it using your Garmin watch, say for example, or whatever. And it monitors whilst you sleep. So it's like, don't have to do anything except wear the watch. And then it takes basically the lowest HRV in the night that it reads. And that's the number that you get. And that forwards to your recovery profile. So you're getting these daily.

And after 60 days of accumulation, we have what's called your normal profile. So we know where normal is for you. And that's the first thing that Athletica does. And that's the first important variable. now it's like, okay, if something important happens, it's either going to go above or below or be right in the middle. When it's in the middle, that's normal. Just carry on, keep doing your training. When it's above, usually means you're adapting. know, gold star, good job, keep going.

But when it goes below, all of a sudden, and sorry, I should say this is the seven-day average. It's not a single marker. So back that up a bit. Now we're never going to actually look at one single marker, even though some of the earlier HRV training studies actually did that. We know that we're not going to react to a single changing variable. We react when seven days in a row is indicative of a

a substantial change, something's happened in your environment, you for the last seven days that raises a red flag. And that's when Athletica raises the red flag and your AI coach will talk to you and tell you about that, especially if you ask it. So that's kind of how it works. It's looking at seven days of data relative to that 60 day norm. And this is on your recovery profile in Athletica and your

AI coach, the chatty guy there on the right or down below is always giving you insight into that if you ever ask it.

Marjaana (25:40)

So now I'm like 40 days in of my new normal. soon my HRV... ⁓

Paul Laursen (25:44)

You got a new normal?

Marjaana (25:51)

my 60 day average or 60 day norm is going to be much lower than my like what it was before right so I've I'm reaching a new new standard standard if I don't get this under control

Paul Laursen (25:59)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, but at the same time, we will have a new baseline and we'll have a new place to kind of move from. Again, everything is always relative. So it's always relative to wherever you are in that given moment. And that includes detraining.

Marjaana (26:18)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (26:20)

So now we're at a new baseline. And now we're going to move up from that. That's going to be the goal.

Marjaana (26:25)

Yes,

yes. And well, we kind of know why my HRV is tanked. But say somebody comes in, starts training and their HRV is low, always low, low, low, low, low, low. And they go over to the new standard like 60 day and they get overtraining warnings or they are just like...

Paul Laursen (26:33)

you you

Marjaana (26:50)

blindly following the plan without making adjustments, right? So

at some point, yes, we don't want to have that knee-jerk reaction to one measurement being either over or under your norm, but at what point should a person whose HRV just tanks go slow and lower over a longer time?

Paul Laursen (26:56)

you you

Marjaana (27:17)

What point should they start thinking like, what am I doing here? Is there something like underlying medical condition or

overtraining? Like what's your recommendation?

Paul Laursen (27:28)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a difficult one because again, we're all individuals out there with different situations. Some of us may have been with us for years and some may be just joining. And it's again, if we're just joining, we have a low history. And like you said, if you come in and you are already in an overtrained sort of scenario and you have been that way for a very long time,

Marjaana (27:43)

you

Paul Laursen (27:50)

it's difficult for the platform to know that effectively, right? We still can only assess what's normal. But if it's way down on the bottom of the access, that could be ⁓ in terms of its values, like below 40, below 30, 20. These are low variation numbers in that HRV. it could be the scenario, if it's always been down there, it could be the scenario where

Marjaana (27:51)

Okay. .

Mm-hmm. you

Paul Laursen (28:21)

you know, that's the way it is right now and we need to do more of a base building period first. and maybe that would be my recommendation for that situation where it's like, if you're just coming in, make sure you have, this is lecture one and insert one for Athletica, make sure we're doing

that base training first and foremost, right? And MJ, back to you, right? With your situation.

You should just be building that base. We know what your goals are for the future. the first place you're going to need to start is just building that aerobic base. So working on aerobic duration at low exercise intensities to develop that what we call adaptation energy. Osler 1967, and that's really important so that we can adapt when we put in that high intensity work again.

So I don't know if I answered your question very well, a slip slotted around it, but that would be my recommendation.

Marjaana (29:17)

Yeah. That was good.

Paul Warloski (29:23)

How accurate are the various apps out there? There's, you know, HRV for training, which I've used for years until I got a new phone that couldn't measure it.

Whoopstrap, which I have now, Orerings. How accurate are these HRV apps?

Paul Laursen (29:41)

Good question. think actually Marco put out a blog on this exact question. It was either today or yesterday.

You might've seen it too, And yeah, the answer is they vary and some are better than others. Some have done the work to put in, know, do the reliability studies like we did with Marco. So we validated Marco's HRV for training app on the phone with the finger. We validated it against ECG in our laboratory.

So we know that definitely works and his algorithms work. And all the other ones out there, they may have their studies that claim that accuracy as well. And so you might want to do your homework on those. I think if you're a big player, they're pretty good. And the other thing that is important too, when we start taking repeated measures,

Marjaana (30:17)

.

Paul Laursen (30:41)

You know, I think over 60 days or a year, like you're starting to get the same method all the time, right? And you're starting to, if you're doing that many measurements, the reliability is going to be improved because it's sort of part and parcel of your same process. We're such routine creatures. We all go through and do the same sort of thing in general on a day-to-day basis, most of us.

And we're in our little home environments and we do the same sort of things. We eat similar patterns. We sleep similar patterns generally, which is why we're so disrupted when we go off and do things that are different, right? Or when we travel a lot, if we travel as part of our job, that's a disruptive kind of process in us. But that reliability that...

Marjaana (31:31)

.

Paul Laursen (31:36)

the fact that we repeat all of these things, most of us, in the same manner that enhances the reliability of the marker that we're measuring.

Paul Warloski (31:48)

For a everyday endurance athlete

who wants to start using HRV, what's the simplest and most practical approach to getting started?

Paul Laursen (31:57)

Well, if you're talking Athletica,

which we often do, probably the Garmin system is the most practical because of the repeatability, the frequency measurement that I just mentioned, the fact that you just don't really have to think about it too much. But they all work. And again, if you have an Aura or a Whoopstrap or some other marker, you can link up your intervals.icu and connect your wearable through there.

And then the Garmin system integrates seamlessly using the Garmin Connect connection on Athletica. And again, there's the Apple Watch connection through Watchletic as well. They all work, and ⁓ they are all great methods. And as well, HRV for training too, if you just want to use the app, you can also integrate that through the intervals.icu.

Marjaana (32:34)

.

Paul Laursen (32:53)

linkage of Athletica. So yeah, and again, maybe if you just want to tinker with this thing and you even before using

Athletica, could experiment with Marco's app as well if you wanted to try that one first before investing in like a Garmin system or something that integrates better. But yeah, have a, you know, there's still a lot of non-believers out there in HRV and I speak to them.

And I know they're listeners of the podcast and if they're listening to this, they're probably smiling. it's becoming pretty commonplace now and recognized as a good indicator of your recovery status and your ability to adapt to your training.

Marjaana (33:43)

We've mostly talked about HRV but also resting heart rate is a good thing to measure if you're already measuring HRV. So have a look at how you're resting heart rate.

fluctuates too.

Paul Laursen (33:57)

100%. And you can, that is another great place to start. and heart rate tends to be like rightly, you know, right linked also with your HRV too, right? So, and you'll see them if you're on your Athletica profile, you'll see.

want them going in opposite directions. You'll see in a recovered situation, you'll see a low, generally a low heart rate and you'll see generally a higher HRV. And that's again, in both situations, that makes perfect sense because it's the parasympathetic system that's driving that low heart rate or the heightened HRV in either situation. so that is another perfect place to start even before you start with a wearable.

is just take your pulse every morning. And that's another simple, non-invasive, non-technological way to start getting insight into your, how recovered you are. Old school, and that works just fine, no problem.

Marjaana (34:49)

Old school. .

Paul Warloski (34:55)

And if somebody wanted to focus on one thing to start with to improve kind of a low HRV, what would be the highest impact

intervention?

Marjaana (35:07)

Thank you.

Paul Laursen (35:08)

probably aerobic training is the biggest one. just yeah. Yeah, that's the studies support that, that just a long aerobic training session on a number of those strung together. No HIIT sessions in your week. You can do weights still, but careful

Paul Warloski (35:23)

Mm.

Paul Laursen (35:25)

about going to exhaustion. But just yeah, that aerobic training does wonders to your HRV.

It's going to create those fat adaptation mitochondrial biogenesis signals. It's going to create the plasma volume rise that we were talking about that's important. And again, I think this is why so many of us are addicted to exercise because it's just that we know that we get so much, it clears your head. Think of all the things that drive us to exercise.

you lengthen the time, the duration of that stimulus, that's a big one to kickstart the whole process. What I see, and back to that story where we see an individual coming into Athletica with a chronically low HRV, they're usually coming in there and they just dive, they want to dive straight into the HIIT sessions, right? And they might choose like, you know, and if they choose a race that's only, you know, a month away, well, we're already getting billed.

Marjaana (36:22)

Thank

Paul Laursen (36:29)

you know, build profiles

for that. We're already getting multiple HIIT sessions. You do this and you do these sessions and you're throwing, you know, you don't have any of the adaptation energy from that base training and you're already doing the HIIT sessions. So you're potentially making the situation worse, unfortunately. And Athletica just can't do what it's sometimes we claim to do in terms of driving and making healthy athletes. You sort of,

You've got to be the driver of the situation. And it could be the situation where you need to do the background low intensity training first before you're walloping the HIIT sessions and the build sessions to build towards that ultimate performance that you're after.

Paul Warloski (37:15)

Anything else, Marjaana Paul, that you want to add to this discussion of HRV and low HRV?

Marjaana (37:22)

I'm gonna throw the strength training you mentioned it Paul

Queen of D training here. I'm still doing my strength training and that just keeps my muscle mass. And I've noted before too, like if I've had to take some time off or do a lot of base training without that HIIT training, strength training has always helped me come back quicker.

Paul Laursen (37:50)

Totally. And that's another really good point. Glad you brought it up. Strength training doesn't make too big of a dent either way into your HRV. It has the potential to drive it down a little bit. Again, if you're doing a strength training session to exhaustion. But if you're leaving all those strength training sessions like you should be, leaving a couple in the tank,

then you should be adapting okay to that and it shouldn't be dampening your HRV too much. Studies have shown that too. The HRV mostly is taking insight from the aerobic training. Like that's how you make changes through changes in the cardiovascular system, right? Because I mean, that's the key thing that can change the heart rate, right? It are things that are driving plasma volume.

Marjaana (38:30)

.

Paul Laursen (38:48)

And ⁓ endurance training does that. Sauna does that. Cold water immersion can do that a little bit. But all

these things are playing, having bigger inputs than something like strength training. Although strength training can drive your sympathetic system a little bit, and damp and parasympathetic. But yeah, the endurance training is the big one.

Marjaana (39:09)

Yeah, maybe clarify the strength training, like do sets of 10s and then take a long break and

I'm not talking about going to F45 and crank out 45 minutes and end at the 165, you know, on the red line. But like traditional strength training where you do like a couple of sets of reps of 10 and then take long breaks. So not the F45.

Paul Laursen (39:38)

Perfect. Yeah, perfect.

And you're preventing the D training by doing that as well, right? Yeah. And we should also say that too, right? If you're in a study just came out that nicely showed the key thing from a nutrition standpoint that prevents the reduction in...

Marjaana (39:44)

Yeah.

Paul Laursen (39:56)

in muscle mass is a high protein diet. if you want to also, if you're in a D training sort of state, the biggest way you can keep lean body mass on is to up your protein levels as well. Think of some of the conversations we've had with Dr. Mickey Willadon as well. yeah, again, back to this situation where you're feeling like you have a very low HRV.

You might be keeping your training more at bay, aerobic training like we said, but the other thing you can do also is to add protein to your diet. So that's another one.

Paul Warloski (40:31)

Well, thank you for listening today to the Athletes Compass podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science-based training platform, Athletica, and join the conversation at the Athletica Forum. For Marjaana Rakai and Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Werlowski, and this has been the Athletes Compass podcast. Thank you so much for listening.