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Hello and welcome to another

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episode of The Operations Room, a

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podcast for CEOs.

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I am Brandon Mensing and joined by

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my amazing co-host, Bethany Ayres.

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How are things going, Bethany?

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Not very well.

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Look, I feel like this has been a

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year of highs and lows.

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So I was pick pocketed

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on Thursday

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in London.

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I was coming back from Manchester to

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meet some friends for dinner in

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Soho, and there was

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a mini landslide

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on the train tracks

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between Manchester and London.

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I don't know what a mini landslide

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is, but it means that the trains are

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moving very slowly.

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So I was getting in 45 minutes

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late.

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I had already cut it fine for

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dinner, so I was in a real rush and

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I was clearly a target.

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Like in retrospect, I have my

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backpack on.

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I have a big coat.

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You have my wheelie bag.

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I'm pushing through people trying

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to get to the restaurant as quickly

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as possible.

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And because London has had so

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many sun thefts

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right now, you know, it's talking

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about it's in the news.

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I just felt like it was inevitable

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that I felt was going to get stolen.

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I bought my iWatch

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so that I would not have to take my

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phone out and be less

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of a target.

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And to do navigation on my

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watch. But I haven't figured out how

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to do navigation well on my watch.

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And it was 100% the navigation that

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got me. So I knew where I supposed

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to turn down. I turned down and it

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was just taking a really long time

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to get to the restaurant.

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And so I picked up my phone to make

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sure I was still where I was going.

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And I kept further down, put my

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phone back in my pocket and zipped

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my pocket.

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And then going down the

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road, I'm kind of passing people,

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everybody. You know, it's Soho.

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People are slow, there's tourists,

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I'm annoyed, and

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somebody jostles me.

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And maybe it took a little longer of

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a jostle than normal or I just

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somehow noticed this one,

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but I didn't think, they're just

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stolen my phone. I was just kind of

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like, Why is this person so close to

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me? Carried over great Marlborough

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Street and I was like, God,

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is this restaurant really that much

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further away? Stuck my hand in my

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pocket. I want to stick my hand in

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my pocket and my zip was undone

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and my stomach just fell.

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And I was like, fuck.

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And I put my hand in my pocket,

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phone gone.

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And then, of course, I look in,

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there's the restaurant.

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So Russian get

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to my friends and

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borrow one of their phones.

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And luckily I have my husband's

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phone number memorized.

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The only number that is not

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a childhood phone number that I have

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memorized in my whole world,

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and the only reason why I have it

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memorized is because he hasn't

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changed his number since we started

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dating, and I used to have to call

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him from America and had figured

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out how to memorize it.

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Never thought that I would need it

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for not having a phone so

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horrific disaster.

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Losing a phone like so

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huge amount of admin and hassle

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with the phone. I won't go into all

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of it, but all I have to say are the

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staff at the Apple Store

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are just so amazing.

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They must get paid really well

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because compared to all the other

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retail people you deal with, like

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the Apple staff is just another

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level.

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I'd like to thank all of them.

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When I was like nearly in tears

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trying to sort out my fucking phone.

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So I now have a phone but I don't

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have a sim so I still can't do

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any to f.a.

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I'm still waiting for O2 to deliver

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me my sim and then I

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had to fill in the police report.

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One of the things that did not

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require two factor authentication

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and filling, and it was great to be

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able to fill it in like online and

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not have to call the police and do

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everything. And if you

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did your name and where it happened

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and describe what happened and then

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there's like a bunch of check boxes

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of things you have to fill in.

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And one of the questions is,

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what is your relationship to the

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crime?

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Something like that.

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And so it was I am the

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victim.

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I am a bystander.

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And the top one is I'm a victim.

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And I was just like, no.

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And so I read the list

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for it.

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Has to be something.

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Else. Yeah.

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And I was like, my God.

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And it was so hard for me to click,

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I am a victim

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of it. It's a it's fine.

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It's not really either.

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But, you know, technically,

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as I found that really hard

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to click the victim button filled

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in everything.

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And also because of my find my

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iPhone, I could put in an exact

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address where it disappeared and

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you know the address of where it
happened,

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the whole thing.

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And then the next day I got a

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here's your case number and then a

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couple of hours later and now your

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case is closed.

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We've looked at the CCTV footage.

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Nothing obvious, no where

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to pursue this. Done.

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So we have got a great topic for

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today, which is a CEO's journey

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to the Google exit.

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We have a wonderful guest for this,

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which is Shane Harris.

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He's the former CEO of Cameo,

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which was acquired by Google in

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2024, and he is now

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working at Google in operations

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and go to market strategy.

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So one little caveat to Shane.

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Unfortunately, we had some technical

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difficulties in the conversation

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whereby we didn't quite get to the

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the Google exit part of it as much

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as we had hopes for the

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conversation. But that aside,

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just wanted to, as usual, start with

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you, Bethany, in terms of our back

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and forth.

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And the first

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thought I want to drop on to you is,

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Shane, you talked about

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bootstrapping a culture of getting

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stuff done, a cameo and a bit of

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this no frills, more with

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less attitude.

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Do you think the finance SEO person

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and finance voice perhaps more

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broadly, is undervalued

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and now it is being valued with our

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current circumstances that we have?

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Once you raise a bit of money,

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you need somebody who's a grown up

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to control that money and

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make sure you don't do stupid

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things.

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So there's obviously the basics

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of getting your accounting right and

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your cash collection right and

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making sure people pay you.

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I'm actually surprised the number of

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companies that don't have their

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accounts payable set up and don't

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really know who is and isn't

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paying them and don't have

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conversations with their customers

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about if you're not paying us, you

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don't have source anymore.

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Like I think a lot of startups,

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every customer is so hard.

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One that even

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a customer that's not paying somehow

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counts as a customer and you don't

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want to take it out of your numbers.

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I'm working with the company, not

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Peak, a different company where that

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exact scenario has just happened

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and they're like, We just want to

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clean up some churn.

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And then there are churn cleanup for

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customers that have just never paid.

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Like, I don't think this is churn.

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Well, this is stuff that just should

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not have been counted in your

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numbers full stop.

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And they don't have a finance

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person. I guess for me, that's a

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perfect example of you need

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those checks and balances.

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You can't just rely

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on the glory of growing

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your M.r or your RR

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without making sure that it's

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actually translating into cash.

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And if it's not translating into

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cash, what are you going to do about

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it? And that's just like a

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fundamental that's not even advanced

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finance, but that's kind of the

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first thing you need, that you need

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somebody who is creating

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a budget, managing a budget,

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explaining to people why they can

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and cannot have things and

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make sure that the money is being

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used appropriately and also

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something that finance, at least in

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my experience, finance should do

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rather than the CFO or Ops

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is the reporting.

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I actually prefer reporting to be

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with finance rather than

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with ops because it's like

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for me, the more trustworthy,

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you know, because even Ops has skin

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in the game around how things are

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going to look and maybe

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cutting metrics in a slightly more

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flattering way. Whereas I just trust

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the finance people are like, This

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is the definition.

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I have run it through the definition

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and this is the metric.

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It's good or it's bad financial

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metrics or pipeline metrics or

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whatever. Plus, finance tend to be

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really good at visualizing data

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and making stuff understandable.

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He also spoke about from

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day one at the outset,

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kind of like Mark Farnell making

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sure that you take your data hose

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and make sure that it's clean and

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wrap your process around it and

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carve your metrics out according

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to whatever that process is in a way

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that's meaningful and helpful to the

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business.

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And I'm just wondering what you make

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of that in terms of his

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view that it should happen from the

284
00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:05,909
very beginning and culturally set

285
00:08:05,910 --> 00:08:06,929
that because oftentimes in

286
00:08:06,930 --> 00:08:08,279
companies, they don't spend the time

287
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,869
and effort to do this upfront.

288
00:08:09,870 --> 00:08:11,219
We just need to get customers on

289
00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:12,509
board and sell effectively to get

290
00:08:12,510 --> 00:08:14,379
the RR rolling and we'll deal with

291
00:08:14,380 --> 00:08:15,239
this afterwards.

292
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,459
So I'm curious the balance between

293
00:08:17,460 --> 00:08:19,559
upfront versus later.

294
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,209
We see this all the time and I get

295
00:08:21,210 --> 00:08:23,039
it because most founders and founder

296
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,259
CEOs don't care

297
00:08:25,260 --> 00:08:26,339
about metrics.

298
00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:28,109
They live five, ten years in the

299
00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:29,369
future. They have a vision that

300
00:08:29,370 --> 00:08:31,499
they're trying to get to.

301
00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:33,149
The boring metrics along the way

302
00:08:33,150 --> 00:08:35,069
just are slowing them down as

303
00:08:35,070 --> 00:08:35,939
an archetype.

304
00:08:35,940 --> 00:08:38,099
And so you do end up

305
00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,019
not looking at numbers are on

306
00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:41,399
the whole companies don't look at

307
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,288
numbers till really late

308
00:08:43,289 --> 00:08:45,479
until they have to pre

309
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,789
a post a depending on

310
00:08:47,790 --> 00:08:50,009
how they gather their a round

311
00:08:50,010 --> 00:08:51,299
where they realize they need to

312
00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:52,739
somehow prove that they have

313
00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:54,689
traction and they other than they

314
00:08:54,690 --> 00:08:56,309
are, they have no proof of traction

315
00:08:56,310 --> 00:08:57,839
or proof over traction.

316
00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,729
And so if you're at the point

317
00:08:59,730 --> 00:09:01,139
where you want to move from founder

318
00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:03,239
led sales to sales

319
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,859
leadership, you need to be able to

320
00:09:04,860 --> 00:09:06,239
put those numbers in place because

321
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,379
otherwise, how are you going to tell

322
00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:08,339
whether or not you've hired a good

323
00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:10,949
leader? Is your pipeline growing

324
00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:13,289
or your cost of acquisition

325
00:09:13,290 --> 00:09:14,609
acceptable?

326
00:09:14,610 --> 00:09:16,169
And at that point, you should hire

327
00:09:16,170 --> 00:09:19,019
in rev ops or

328
00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:20,909
biz ops or whatever kind of ops

329
00:09:20,910 --> 00:09:22,139
you want to call it, depending on

330
00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:24,749
how broad people are looking.

331
00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:26,759
The ops systems thinking person

332
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,709
is like, you should do it from day

333
00:09:28,710 --> 00:09:30,629
one and build it into the culture.

334
00:09:30,630 --> 00:09:32,549
But then both the realist and

335
00:09:32,550 --> 00:09:34,409
also there's a lot of

336
00:09:34,410 --> 00:09:35,549
things you have to fix in the

337
00:09:35,550 --> 00:09:36,519
beginning.

338
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,079
Like, does it actually just slow you

339
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,219
down?

340
00:09:39,220 --> 00:09:39,999
Particularly if you're doing

341
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:40,839
enterprise sales.

342
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,839
If you're doing high volume sales,

343
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,099
you need to do it from the start.

344
00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:46,989
Or if you're doing product led

345
00:09:46,990 --> 00:09:48,129
sales, you need to do it from the

346
00:09:48,130 --> 00:09:50,379
start, a product that grows PLG.

347
00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:52,599
Because then it's all about metrics

348
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:53,769
and you have enough numbers to make

349
00:09:53,770 --> 00:09:54,849
a difference.

350
00:09:54,850 --> 00:09:57,379
If you're selling 500,000

351
00:09:57,380 --> 00:09:59,649
pound ACV

352
00:09:59,650 --> 00:10:01,269
or dollar ACV deals and you're

353
00:10:01,270 --> 00:10:03,189
selling for a year,

354
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:04,689
your metrics really don't matter

355
00:10:04,690 --> 00:10:06,189
because there is nothing repeatable

356
00:10:06,190 --> 00:10:08,259
there for a very long time.

357
00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:09,519
It's almost like a descending scale,

358
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:10,989
isn't it? Enterprise Mid-Market,

359
00:10:10,990 --> 00:10:13,239
SMB, PLG.

360
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,009
As you go down that pathway, the

361
00:10:15,010 --> 00:10:16,989
earlier you have to start in terms

362
00:10:16,990 --> 00:10:18,279
of tracking the stuff in a way that

363
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:19,059
actually makes sense for the

364
00:10:19,060 --> 00:10:19,929
business.

365
00:10:19,930 --> 00:10:21,399
But I think at the end of the day,

366
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:22,959
what I've seen over and over again

367
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,699
is that the Series A, when the

368
00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:26,349
company grows to a certain size and

369
00:10:26,350 --> 00:10:27,579
as you're getting toward the series,

370
00:10:27,580 --> 00:10:29,919
B and the founder are starting to

371
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,149
not lose control, but they don't

372
00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:32,139
know what's going on in the

373
00:10:32,140 --> 00:10:33,159
business. They don't know what
everyone

374
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,869
is doing as they used to, and they

375
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:36,399
start freaking out a little bit and

376
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:37,689
they're like, Brandon, I just want

377
00:10:37,690 --> 00:10:39,279
to see a dashboard, one dashboard

378
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,689
that tells me what's happening.

379
00:10:40,690 --> 00:10:42,279
So that's where that flipped.

380
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,509
The switch I think really happens in

381
00:10:43,510 --> 00:10:45,369
a substantial way where the CEO

382
00:10:45,370 --> 00:10:46,659
that maybe would not have been

383
00:10:46,660 --> 00:10:48,489
behind it earlier gets behind

384
00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:49,419
it because they're feeling like

385
00:10:49,420 --> 00:10:50,319
they're losing control.

386
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:51,759
They need to see a dashboard.

387
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:52,899
And that's the point by which you

388
00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:54,189
can actually step in to make

389
00:10:54,190 --> 00:10:55,299
something happen.

390
00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:56,619
And that's when you can get the data

391
00:10:56,620 --> 00:10:58,029
to be accurate, because up until

392
00:10:58,030 --> 00:10:59,409
that point, no matter how accurate

393
00:10:59,410 --> 00:11:00,489
you'd like the data to be,

394
00:11:00,490 --> 00:11:01,629
everything's on a spreadsheet

395
00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:03,819
somewhere hidden and HubSpot

396
00:11:03,820 --> 00:11:06,309
is empty or randomly

397
00:11:06,310 --> 00:11:08,109
half used and there's no information

398
00:11:08,110 --> 00:11:09,669
in there. And so you have to go and

399
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:11,829
actually start to enforce

400
00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:12,879
data quality.

401
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,139
I cannot tell you the number of

402
00:11:14,140 --> 00:11:16,209
times I've seen HubSpot being

403
00:11:16,210 --> 00:11:17,829
licensed and just kind of sitting

404
00:11:17,830 --> 00:11:18,219
there.

405
00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:19,449
And then you also have nobody in the

406
00:11:19,450 --> 00:11:20,949
business who knows how to use it

407
00:11:20,950 --> 00:11:21,950
exactly.

408
00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:24,459
You have somebody who's kind of like

409
00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:26,199
a little bit systems has maybe

410
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,239
watched one demo, has

411
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,699
done things and customized

412
00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:31,629
a little bit of it.

413
00:11:31,630 --> 00:11:33,759
In a strange way, it's not working

414
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:34,749
and then they just revert to the

415
00:11:34,750 --> 00:11:35,649
spreadsheet.

416
00:11:35,650 --> 00:11:36,999
I always find the attitude funny

417
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,079
because on the one side of it

418
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,969
they're always like, Well, we

419
00:11:39,970 --> 00:11:41,349
know we need to have HubSpot.

420
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:43,299
So they license it and I, okay, well

421
00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:44,349
we got it now.

422
00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:45,369
And then they just kind of ignore

423
00:11:45,370 --> 00:11:46,449
it. And then at some point when

424
00:11:46,450 --> 00:11:48,009
things start to like really go

425
00:11:48,010 --> 00:11:49,419
haywire at some stage in terms of

426
00:11:49,420 --> 00:11:50,859
just not knowing what's happening in

427
00:11:50,860 --> 00:11:52,719
the business, like, okay, we

428
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:53,709
should actually do something.

429
00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:55,479
And then that revolves higher

430
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,219
happens, then the cleanup happens,

431
00:11:57,220 --> 00:11:58,569
then the tracking happens and the

432
00:11:58,570 --> 00:12:00,339
metrics happen and the culture piece

433
00:12:00,340 --> 00:12:01,539
of sales reps actually doing stuff

434
00:12:01,540 --> 00:12:02,889
properly happens.

435
00:12:02,890 --> 00:12:04,809
Or doesn't, where they

436
00:12:04,810 --> 00:12:06,489
hire the rev ops person and the rest

437
00:12:06,490 --> 00:12:07,539
of the culture, change doesn't

438
00:12:07,540 --> 00:12:08,829
happen. And you have this revolves

439
00:12:08,830 --> 00:12:09,939
person is just banging their head

440
00:12:09,940 --> 00:12:11,889
against a wall trying to change

441
00:12:11,890 --> 00:12:13,569
the culture and nobody else goes

442
00:12:13,570 --> 00:12:14,259
with it.

443
00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:15,339
I mean, this is where the operator

444
00:12:15,340 --> 00:12:16,659
comes in, doesn't it? Because

445
00:12:16,660 --> 00:12:18,219
oftentimes his rev ops people are

446
00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:19,839
fabulous, but they're not great

447
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,909
communicators. And I greater change

448
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:23,079
transformation in the business.

449
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,609
If you're sitting there with 25 reps

450
00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:26,469
or 30 reps, nobody's going to do

451
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:28,539
Jack unless they're

452
00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:30,099
in a, I don't know, a well thought

453
00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:32,079
out transformation program to get

454
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,099
them in a place where they

455
00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:34,809
understand why it's useful.

456
00:12:34,810 --> 00:12:36,189
They're being held to account.

457
00:12:36,190 --> 00:12:37,149
And it's not for me, the Red Bob's

458
00:12:37,150 --> 00:12:38,349
person that does that, it has to be

459
00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:39,669
somebody else.

460
00:12:39,670 --> 00:12:40,899
And also, sometimes they're

461
00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:42,189
perfectly fine communicators.

462
00:12:42,190 --> 00:12:44,259
They're just not senior enough.

463
00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:45,939
When the CEO's like, I don't care

464
00:12:45,940 --> 00:12:47,349
about it, I never look at it, Here's

465
00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:48,699
my spreadsheet. Nobody is going to

466
00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:50,169
listen to the rev ops person who's

467
00:12:50,170 --> 00:12:52,059
trying to get them to use HubSpot.

468
00:12:52,060 --> 00:12:53,229
So here's another question for you,

469
00:12:53,230 --> 00:12:54,519
because I've also seen this

470
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,319
repeatedly where the CEO, the

471
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,299
company recognizes it needs

472
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,219
to happen. He or she wants to do it.

473
00:13:00,220 --> 00:13:01,579
It starts happening in some form,

474
00:13:01,580 --> 00:13:02,949
but it's still kind of half baked.

475
00:13:02,950 --> 00:13:04,359
And the message that I get back from

476
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,399
the CEO is that I want

477
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,229
reporting to happen, but I do

478
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:09,159
not want to look at it.

479
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:10,749
And HubSpot, I hate those charts and

480
00:13:10,750 --> 00:13:12,459
I'm not going to bother to log in.

481
00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:13,989
I have also seen that one.

482
00:13:13,990 --> 00:13:15,279
You kind of get one or the other of

483
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,719
either I don't want to log in.

484
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,189
I hate the way it looks, can't be

485
00:13:18,190 --> 00:13:20,079
bothered or gets

486
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,329
really excited by it and drills in

487
00:13:22,330 --> 00:13:23,829
but doesn't quite understand it and

488
00:13:23,830 --> 00:13:25,689
goes into like these weird

489
00:13:25,690 --> 00:13:26,829
like rabbit holes and

490
00:13:26,830 --> 00:13:28,599
misunderstandings.

491
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:29,979
So I think there's two things.

492
00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:31,899
Either you work at getting

493
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:34,089
them to like it and keep working

494
00:13:34,090 --> 00:13:36,339
at it or accept

495
00:13:36,340 --> 00:13:38,769
that HubSpot is your database

496
00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:40,479
and you're going to export the

497
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,429
information into pretty charts

498
00:13:42,430 --> 00:13:44,169
for that person on a regular basis,

499
00:13:44,170 --> 00:13:47,019
either weekly or monthly,

500
00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:48,909
and then like refer back to

501
00:13:48,910 --> 00:13:50,859
the finance people who can

502
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:52,869
make pretty charts.

503
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:54,999
It's a bit of a waste of time, but

504
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,409
at least you have a good database at

505
00:13:56,410 --> 00:13:58,749
that point, even if the consumption

506
00:13:58,750 --> 00:14:00,759
of the information is not

507
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:01,839
in the tool.

508
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,309
I think in the SEO case that I've

509
00:14:03,310 --> 00:14:05,109
experienced taking that data, that

510
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:06,729
hopefully is good data that actually

511
00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:07,929
is clean to your point and track

512
00:14:07,930 --> 00:14:09,879
properly, you can export it

513
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,529
and either visualize it in Excel,

514
00:14:11,530 --> 00:14:12,909
which people understand, or Google

515
00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:14,919
sheets or possibly

516
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,029
start thinking about like things

517
00:14:16,030 --> 00:14:17,619
like Power BI and visualizing there.

518
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:19,419
But I always find that's like just a

519
00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:21,069
whole other world of pain, to be

520
00:14:21,070 --> 00:14:22,929
honest. If we don't need to do it,

521
00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:24,699
then I think kind of in that AB

522
00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:26,679
world, visualizing it outside

523
00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,329
of HubSpot and just Google sheets or

524
00:14:28,330 --> 00:14:29,439
something like that is perfectly

525
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:29,889
acceptable.

526
00:14:29,890 --> 00:14:31,959
I think I would not spend my budget

527
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:33,999
on power by any spare

528
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:35,859
budget I have. I'd be spending on

529
00:14:35,860 --> 00:14:37,789
I. Tools for the company to

530
00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:39,619
just experiment with in this new

531
00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:41,749
world of cash is not free and

532
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:43,069
constrained. And where am I going to

533
00:14:43,070 --> 00:14:44,159
spend my IT budget?

534
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,399
It would not be for a

535
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,659
company that's.

536
00:14:47,660 --> 00:14:49,489
Series A series B,

537
00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:50,659
maybe even series C.

538
00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:52,399
I wouldn't be spending my money on

539
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:53,929
buy tools anymore.

540
00:14:53,930 --> 00:14:54,829
Yeah, there's a good point.

541
00:14:54,830 --> 00:14:55,939
And there's so many of those buy

542
00:14:55,940 --> 00:14:57,439
tools and they're so expensive.

543
00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:58,849
Typically, like if think about these

544
00:14:58,850 --> 00:15:00,829
things like Snowflake and Tableau,

545
00:15:00,830 --> 00:15:02,479
they are super, super expensive,

546
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,069
like crazy expensive and a list of a

547
00:15:04,070 --> 00:15:06,409
certain size and transactional

548
00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:07,339
scale.

549
00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:08,719
It's hard to argue that it makes any

550
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,279
real financial sense, especially

551
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,079
when people either.

552
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,149
Don't use it, can't use it, or

553
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:15,139
whatever does show up on those

554
00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:16,549
dashboards is not correct for all

555
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:17,959
sorts of reasons.

556
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,039
When it comes to metrics.

557
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:19,879
What do you love?

558
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:20,719
What do you hate?

559
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,369
What gets Bethany excited when it

560
00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:23,599
comes to the world of metrics and

561
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,219
what kind of metrics?

562
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:26,689
I like to strip it back to the ones

563
00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:27,829
that really matter.

564
00:15:27,830 --> 00:15:29,239
The gross margin.

565
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,069
Are you making money or not?

566
00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:32,569
Payback, period.

567
00:15:32,570 --> 00:15:34,489
Are you making money or not?

568
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:36,469
Those are probably my big

569
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:38,659
ones. And then net revenue retention

570
00:15:38,660 --> 00:15:39,679
because are you growing?

571
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,449
Are you standing still?

572
00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:42,529
Are you going backwards because you

573
00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:44,149
can't retain customers?

574
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:46,549
Everything after that is

575
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:48,649
interesting to see how well

576
00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:50,479
the system is functioning.

577
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,339
And is the SAS flywheel rolling?

578
00:15:53,340 --> 00:15:54,799
How about you, Brandon?

579
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:56,179
So I love the standard stuff.

580
00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:57,919
Obviously I slice and dice it to

581
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,559
death in terms of RR

582
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:01,939
year on year, quarter on quarter, a

583
00:16:01,940 --> 00:16:03,559
month on month growth rates that are

584
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,579
attached to that.

585
00:16:04,580 --> 00:16:06,529
Looking at the forecast and figure

586
00:16:06,530 --> 00:16:08,239
out where our burn rate is, how it's

587
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,069
tracking, and if you increase budget

588
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:11,209
here a little bit or increase

589
00:16:11,210 --> 00:16:12,559
revenue there, how that affects the

590
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,029
cash burn itself. So I like the cash

591
00:16:14,030 --> 00:16:15,469
burn as an actual.

592
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:17,179
Thing to to focus on and obviously

593
00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:18,229
gross margin or whatnot.

594
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:19,489
Operating income are always quite

595
00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:21,349
interesting in this respect as well.

596
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:22,969
Other ones of interest for sure.

597
00:16:22,970 --> 00:16:24,409
We call that net dollar retention

598
00:16:24,410 --> 00:16:25,999
out trend, my last company.

599
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,499
But effectively, you know, if you

600
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,899
combine expansion,

601
00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:32,119
churn all those other factors,

602
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,619
are we incrementally growing our

603
00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:34,729
customer asset from a revenue

604
00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:36,799
perspective or are we starting

605
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:37,819
to lose steam?

606
00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:39,469
And also looking at the cohorts of

607
00:16:39,470 --> 00:16:41,029
the some segments within that is

608
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:42,529
quite fascinating because oftentimes

609
00:16:42,530 --> 00:16:44,539
you see very clear trend lines

610
00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:46,549
of like segment A is

611
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:47,779
tanking it for some reason.

612
00:16:47,780 --> 00:16:49,729
Segment B is kicking ass and just

613
00:16:49,730 --> 00:16:50,869
understanding what that difference

614
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:52,489
looks like, what kind of customer

615
00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:54,319
assets are maybe not

616
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:55,489
entirely suitable.

617
00:16:55,490 --> 00:16:56,659
And you can kind of see it where

618
00:16:56,660 --> 00:16:57,739
they're not growing at the other

619
00:16:57,740 --> 00:16:59,359
rates of the other customers.

620
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:00,679
And there's a reason for that.

621
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:01,909
And digging into what that reason

622
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:03,859
is, recognizing it's not the best

623
00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:05,269
customer set for you to be targeting

624
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:06,949
or that perhaps you need to be

625
00:17:06,950 --> 00:17:08,328
doubling down in that segment to

626
00:17:08,329 --> 00:17:09,979
actually bring forward more

627
00:17:09,980 --> 00:17:11,899
functionality or experiences to to

628
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:12,919
get them more excited by what's

629
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,269
happening, perhaps.

630
00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:15,649
So I've worked with one company that

631
00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:18,019
has a very traditional

632
00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:20,419
small, medium, large processor

633
00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:22,279
in the smaller micro, and so

634
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,068
it was all credit cards and

635
00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:27,259
it was low touch, but

636
00:17:27,260 --> 00:17:28,549
in the beginning it was not low

637
00:17:28,550 --> 00:17:30,019
touch, but they were the ones that

638
00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:31,159
were turning on and off all the

639
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,269
time. So it wasn't necessarily

640
00:17:32,270 --> 00:17:33,949
churn, but because it was a monthly

641
00:17:33,950 --> 00:17:35,539
subscription, they would turn it on

642
00:17:35,540 --> 00:17:36,889
when they needed it, turn it off.

643
00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:38,239
And so in the numbers it looked like

644
00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,919
churn. So one of the first things I

645
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,629
did was really delve into what's

646
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:43,279
going on because they were going out

647
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:44,059
for a fundraiser.

648
00:17:44,060 --> 00:17:45,049
I was like, my God, you have all

649
00:17:45,050 --> 00:17:46,489
this churn and by doing Get into the

650
00:17:46,490 --> 00:17:48,409
Cohorts, you could see that

651
00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:49,759
Enterprise actually had a really

652
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:50,899
strong expansion.

653
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:52,789
Mid-Market was fairly okay,

654
00:17:52,790 --> 00:17:54,709
and the churn, as we called it, was

655
00:17:54,710 --> 00:17:56,839
all in the small markets.

656
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,699
And although they were small

657
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:00,019
companies, they actually made up a

658
00:18:00,020 --> 00:18:01,609
large chunk of the revenue.

659
00:18:01,610 --> 00:18:03,739
And so it looked like it was all

660
00:18:03,740 --> 00:18:05,149
bad churn when you rolled it all up

661
00:18:05,150 --> 00:18:06,799
together. But by segmenting it into

662
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,269
in those cohorts, we could see what

663
00:18:08,270 --> 00:18:10,009
was actually going on.

664
00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:12,289
And then we focused on

665
00:18:12,290 --> 00:18:13,249
there wasn't anything with the

666
00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:14,809
product that you could change.

667
00:18:14,810 --> 00:18:16,219
It was a structural issue, like

668
00:18:16,220 --> 00:18:17,719
these customers just were not going

669
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,729
to ever commit to a year.

670
00:18:19,730 --> 00:18:21,769
And so we focused instead

671
00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:23,599
on massively lowering

672
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,489
the cost of acquisition

673
00:18:25,490 --> 00:18:27,739
and making it completely

674
00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:29,569
no touch, only

675
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:31,009
credit cards.

676
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:33,049
If somebody's credit cards expired

677
00:18:33,050 --> 00:18:34,999
immediately turn them off from

678
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,109
the product.

679
00:18:36,110 --> 00:18:37,669
And therefore we still had this

680
00:18:37,670 --> 00:18:40,039
really bitty revenue.

681
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,899
But the profitability

682
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:43,999
of the customers massively increased

683
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:44,479
that.

684
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:45,859
My former company, we had exactly

685
00:18:45,860 --> 00:18:48,529
this, which is you had freelancers

686
00:18:48,530 --> 00:18:49,819
that would turn the software on and

687
00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:51,619
off depending on their workload and

688
00:18:51,620 --> 00:18:52,849
what was happening from a contract

689
00:18:52,850 --> 00:18:53,779
perspective.

690
00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:55,699
And you could very clearly see them

691
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,319
as we find at the time, churning out

692
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,369
and that we could clearly see them

693
00:18:58,370 --> 00:19:00,079
reactivating at a later point.

694
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:01,819
So we actually call that bucket

695
00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:02,659
reactivation.

696
00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:04,519
So it became very clear a bucket of

697
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,199
trend was in the forecast that we

698
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,969
had a certain expectations around

699
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:09,619
reactivation, what that look like

700
00:19:09,620 --> 00:19:11,149
and just making sure that it was

701
00:19:11,150 --> 00:19:12,979
cleanly segmented from the churn

702
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:14,749
number to ensure that investors

703
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:15,769
understood.

704
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:17,089
And then you got some profitability

705
00:19:17,090 --> 00:19:18,319
out of it as well. Like if you make

706
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,929
it no touch low touch,

707
00:19:20,930 --> 00:19:23,509
you're not actually paying for it,

708
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:24,589
then that's nice.

709
00:19:24,590 --> 00:19:25,759
Extra money.

710
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,709
What do you think of the rule of 40

711
00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:29,419
combining profitability with growth

712
00:19:29,420 --> 00:19:30,439
as a thing?

713
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:31,939
It seemed like it was really, really

714
00:19:31,940 --> 00:19:33,799
trendy Right after the

715
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:34,699
tech crash.

716
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:36,029
It was articles about it every.

717
00:19:36,030 --> 00:19:37,049
But he's talking about it.

718
00:19:37,050 --> 00:19:38,279
And I think it's because it's coming

719
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,229
from private equity and it's a way

720
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:42,239
of PE firms being able to

721
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,799
value companies.

722
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,719
Are you still hearing it?

723
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:46,949
Not as much.

724
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:49,049
What I do think about is the

725
00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:50,669
RR Peretti.

726
00:19:50,670 --> 00:19:52,289
So the amount of revenue that you're

727
00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:53,519
making divided by the number of

728
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:54,539
employees that you have, it's a

729
00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:56,039
direct correlation of the efficiency

730
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,659
of like to be 30 people to get to

731
00:19:57,660 --> 00:19:59,969
this revenue level or

732
00:19:59,970 --> 00:20:01,439
is it 60 or 90, 120?

733
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,519
And how does that benchmark versus

734
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:03,539
other companies in a similar

735
00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:05,429
category? It's quite a useful

736
00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:06,689
benchmarking tool.

737
00:20:06,690 --> 00:20:08,039
And also it'll be interesting with

738
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:09,899
all of the AI being

739
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:11,849
rolled out in companies,

740
00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:14,039
what the new benchmark will become.

741
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,529
I read an article about

742
00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:18,419
a AI and

743
00:20:18,420 --> 00:20:19,649
tech professional services, a

744
00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:21,629
professional services like

745
00:20:21,630 --> 00:20:23,969
lawyers and accountants

746
00:20:23,970 --> 00:20:26,069
and consulting

747
00:20:26,070 --> 00:20:28,139
firms, the vertical professional

748
00:20:28,140 --> 00:20:29,249
services.

749
00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:31,679
And they were saying that because

750
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,539
I can do

751
00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:35,579
a lot of what juniors do,

752
00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:37,589
basically, like a junior lawyer does

753
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:39,119
just all of the shit work and now a

754
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:40,829
machine can do it, that a lot of

755
00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:42,869
these organizations are not planning

756
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:44,699
on hiring nearly as many graduates

757
00:20:44,700 --> 00:20:46,049
now. But that's like kind of an

758
00:20:46,050 --> 00:20:47,999
existential issue of like,

759
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,289
where do all these kids go and

760
00:20:49,290 --> 00:20:50,759
having children. I am a bit worried

761
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,169
about this. You know what?

762
00:20:52,170 --> 00:20:53,879
Where are their jobs in the future?

763
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,979
But also, experienced

764
00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:57,749
people are not worried about losing

765
00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:00,029
their jobs because they can see

766
00:21:00,030 --> 00:21:02,069
what is good and not good

767
00:21:02,070 --> 00:21:03,599
in AI and like where the

768
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,549
hallucinations are.

769
00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:07,079
But what you end up having is

770
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,969
because we're not having the

771
00:21:08,970 --> 00:21:11,129
next generation trained on it,

772
00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:12,929
when the experts retire, you don't

773
00:21:12,930 --> 00:21:13,979
have people who are going to be able

774
00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:15,299
to tell what's good and what's not

775
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:16,169
good.

776
00:21:16,170 --> 00:21:18,119
I also just thinking about

777
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:20,819
like what's going to happen

778
00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:23,309
to tech companies in the future.

779
00:21:23,310 --> 00:21:24,689
Would you hire graduates?

780
00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:26,639
Like I think if you have a company

781
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,049
with a good culture that's growing

782
00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:29,969
steadily, companies might

783
00:21:29,970 --> 00:21:31,979
just kind of age together.

784
00:21:31,980 --> 00:21:33,059
And not hire juniors.

785
00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:35,509
You mean and not hire juniors?

786
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:36,749
And not just the P.W.

787
00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:38,129
seasoned eccentrics of the world,

788
00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:40,229
but across the board?

789
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:41,189
It's going to be interesting to see

790
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:43,889
what happens to

791
00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:46,079
the workforce in the coming years.

792
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:46,919
What are we going to do with all of

793
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,689
our kids if we don't hire them?

794
00:21:48,690 --> 00:21:50,399
We have to do something with them.

795
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:51,569
Yeah, but you're right.

796
00:21:51,570 --> 00:21:53,009
Especially for scale ups when you're

797
00:21:53,010 --> 00:21:54,719
being very efficient with your cash

798
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,729
and only spending where you have to.

799
00:21:56,730 --> 00:21:57,959
If you don't need juniors to be in

800
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,219
the business because you have A.I.

801
00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:01,229
doing a bunch of that stuff for you,

802
00:22:01,230 --> 00:22:02,849
then you're not going to, period.

803
00:22:02,850 --> 00:22:04,169
It does matter what your values are

804
00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:05,279
of your organization.

805
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:06,659
It's taken a slightly away from

806
00:22:06,660 --> 00:22:07,919
metrics, but we'll be able to do is

807
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,059
measure the metrics.

808
00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:10,529
But as interesting as it came from

809
00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:12,359
the R per head, this whole

810
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:13,619
little bit of conversation.

811
00:22:13,620 --> 00:22:15,479
So reason why the metrics

812
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,789
matter and the philosophically,

813
00:22:17,790 --> 00:22:18,790
what does it show us?

814
00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:24,779
And is part of your your number

815
00:22:24,780 --> 00:22:27,089
one goal usually is growth, right?

816
00:22:27,090 --> 00:22:29,369
Andrew and our

817
00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:31,439
original founders, they read

818
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,329
the market well in that they

819
00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:35,669
forecasted in the future

820
00:22:35,670 --> 00:22:37,049
they could see that there was going

821
00:22:37,050 --> 00:22:38,909
to be a major impact from

822
00:22:38,910 --> 00:22:41,639
cloud on virtualization.

823
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,129
So from day one, we actually knew

824
00:22:44,130 --> 00:22:46,409
that acquisition was a likely

825
00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:48,569
exit path for us.

826
00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:50,279
We didn't box or sell sent where

827
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,749
that was the only exit path, but we

828
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:53,099
knew that that was a very likely

829
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:54,269
exit path.

830
00:22:54,270 --> 00:22:56,549
And then another piece of it was

831
00:22:56,550 --> 00:22:59,729
we looked at scaling and

832
00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:01,949
every company has culture

833
00:23:01,950 --> 00:23:03,839
and core values and something

834
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,789
that we as an executive

835
00:23:05,790 --> 00:23:07,649
team really focused on.

836
00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:09,509
I know that sounds silly, but

837
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:11,579
we got things done and no

838
00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:13,769
frills, no hype, just all

839
00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:15,419
results focused in what we were

840
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:16,289
doing.

841
00:23:16,290 --> 00:23:18,359
And do more with less

842
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,129
was something that we were used to

843
00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:22,019
doing. And so part of our culture

844
00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:24,359
was being gritty, being scrappy,

845
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,189
finding ways to get results and make

846
00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:28,049
things happen without getting

847
00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:29,639
involved in the hype and the waste.

848
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,199
And it's really interesting because

849
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,209
at the time, money was so cheap.

850
00:23:33,210 --> 00:23:35,069
So there was this temptation to

851
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:36,959
raise a series, a round, and we

852
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,609
actually had an opportunity to do

853
00:23:38,610 --> 00:23:40,289
that at a pretty meaningful

854
00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:41,099
valuation.

855
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:43,059
But when we took a step back,

856
00:23:43,060 --> 00:23:45,809
we just looked at the things that

857
00:23:45,810 --> 00:23:47,069
we're being asked to do, the

858
00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:49,289
expectation of growth at all costs

859
00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:50,279
and, you know, hire a bunch of

860
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,259
people if things go wrong, you fire

861
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:53,609
them all later, you know, like it

862
00:23:53,610 --> 00:23:55,889
just was it was a little bit counter

863
00:23:55,890 --> 00:23:56,789
to our culture.

864
00:23:56,790 --> 00:23:58,829
And what was crazy was like

865
00:23:58,830 --> 00:24:00,839
six months later, after we made

866
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,819
that decision, the wheels

867
00:24:02,820 --> 00:24:04,799
fell off, like the interest rates

868
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,569
started going sky high, adventure

869
00:24:06,570 --> 00:24:08,069
firms coming back and say, hey, you

870
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:09,149
know what?

871
00:24:09,150 --> 00:24:10,559
You got to be profitable.

872
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,029
Your growth, you got to be cash flow

873
00:24:12,030 --> 00:24:14,039
positive. You got to show results

874
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,149
for all this money you're sending,

875
00:24:15,150 --> 00:24:16,529
which that was something we cared

876
00:24:16,530 --> 00:24:18,449
about from day one and was

877
00:24:18,450 --> 00:24:19,829
part of our culture.

878
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:21,839
So the founders probably made

879
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,759
as much by not taking funding

880
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:24,809
as they would have had they grown a

881
00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:26,039
bigger company.

882
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,329
You know, when you do the math, it's

883
00:24:27,330 --> 00:24:29,189
crazy just speaking in general

884
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:31,169
terms like bootstrapping

885
00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:32,609
and being cash flow positive does is

886
00:24:32,610 --> 00:24:34,589
it preserves your autonomy so that

887
00:24:34,590 --> 00:24:36,989
you're never stuck in a situation

888
00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:38,879
where you have to raise money

889
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,009
at a valuation you don't like or,

890
00:24:41,010 --> 00:24:42,419
you know, the market takes a turn.

891
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:44,129
You end up in a scenario where

892
00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:45,749
upside down, I mean, the scenario

893
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:48,269
described is like absolute tragedy

894
00:24:48,270 --> 00:24:49,739
to me and it happens a lot where you

895
00:24:49,740 --> 00:24:52,079
have a very hyped up firm.

896
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,099
We're going to hire a ton of people,

897
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:54,069
We're going to get these crazy

898
00:24:54,070 --> 00:24:56,189
evaluations or pay wild

899
00:24:56,190 --> 00:24:58,049
salaries to the executive,

900
00:24:58,050 --> 00:24:59,879
and then the market shifts

901
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:01,199
or something happens and three years

902
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,429
down the road, they end up selling

903
00:25:02,430 --> 00:25:04,259
at still a very meaningful

904
00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:05,489
valuation.

905
00:25:05,490 --> 00:25:07,649
But in doing that, nobody

906
00:25:07,650 --> 00:25:09,389
made any money because of the way

907
00:25:09,390 --> 00:25:11,009
they financed their growth leading

908
00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:11,789
into it.

909
00:25:11,790 --> 00:25:13,289
It's hard to make that call.

910
00:25:13,290 --> 00:25:14,459
And I think this is where it comes a

911
00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:15,779
bit to Brandon's question of do you

912
00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:17,189
know what kind of exit you want?

913
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:18,779
Because sometimes if you have that

914
00:25:18,780 --> 00:25:20,609
idea that you believe in that

915
00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:22,529
is that unicorn idea

916
00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:23,579
and you're going to create a

917
00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:24,749
category and you're going to take

918
00:25:24,750 --> 00:25:26,009
over the world and that's your

919
00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:27,839
ambition, then it's really

920
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,549
hard to not want to take the money

921
00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:31,529
and to feel the urge

922
00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:33,149
that if you don't move fast enough,

923
00:25:33,150 --> 00:25:34,139
somebody is going to come and steal

924
00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:35,399
your idea.

925
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,649
And like the glory of

926
00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:38,819
being the next Salesforce.

927
00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:40,469
Not that Salesforce is like exciting

928
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:42,659
for anyone anymore versus

929
00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:44,339
actually what I want is a nice

930
00:25:44,340 --> 00:25:46,319
amount of money for my

931
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,629
children and my family

932
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:50,519
and keep the autonomy and

933
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,439
grow a business that I like.

934
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,309
And all those things are

935
00:25:53,310 --> 00:25:54,809
considerations.

936
00:25:54,810 --> 00:25:56,909
There's no one size fits all,

937
00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:58,289
but I think there's something

938
00:25:58,290 --> 00:26:00,509
beautiful about being

939
00:26:00,510 --> 00:26:01,469
I don't want to use the word

940
00:26:01,470 --> 00:26:02,999
realistic. That sounds wrong, but

941
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,789
being pragmatic about

942
00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:07,799
what you're doing because

943
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:08,999
there are a lot of visionaries out

944
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,759
there and the road

945
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,099
is there's carcasses all along

946
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:16,229
the path to becoming a unicorn.

947
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:18,239
You know, there's a lot of

948
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,249
people that they go too hard

949
00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:22,139
when they should have just taken

950
00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:23,369
a more sustainable path.

951
00:26:23,370 --> 00:26:25,259
And it aligns to

952
00:26:25,260 --> 00:26:26,669
culture. I really think it aligns.

953
00:26:26,670 --> 00:26:28,409
The person highlights the culture.

954
00:26:28,410 --> 00:26:29,909
So when you think about the secret

955
00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:32,399
sauce, Shane Harris is the CEO

956
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,139
in Cameo specifically.

957
00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:35,729
What is it about Shane that really

958
00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:37,409
helped make this happen?

959
00:26:37,410 --> 00:26:39,659
The role of operations

960
00:26:39,660 --> 00:26:41,549
is to enable the

961
00:26:41,550 --> 00:26:43,379
strategic business objectives

962
00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:44,519
of the company.

963
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,439
It's everything that is happening.

964
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,029
You're helping the company get from

965
00:26:48,030 --> 00:26:49,799
A to B in the most efficient,

966
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,239
effective way.

967
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,819
A great CEO is to

968
00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:56,069
have a way to combine everything

969
00:26:56,070 --> 00:26:58,229
the company is doing from

970
00:26:58,230 --> 00:26:59,819
There's so much data flowing through

971
00:26:59,820 --> 00:27:01,469
your company is so much information

972
00:27:01,470 --> 00:27:03,359
to be harnessed by just your day

973
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:05,459
to day processes and operations and

974
00:27:05,460 --> 00:27:07,799
you need to establish performance

975
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,599
metrics across the organization.

976
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,099
It tells you how the company is

977
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:11,879
doing.

978
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,649
And then also you have to put

979
00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:16,199
systems in place that

980
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,819
fuel those metrics, right?

981
00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:19,559
So you're collecting the data that

982
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:20,759
you need to collect to make the

983
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,159
right decisions. As a company to be

984
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,469
able to take risks in Belfast,

985
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:26,269
to be able to optimize, to be able

986
00:27:26,270 --> 00:27:28,369
to determine what should we change

987
00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:30,229
to reach our strategic plan.

988
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:32,629
What things do we need to adjust?

989
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:33,949
We need to get out ahead of those

990
00:27:33,950 --> 00:27:34,789
things.

991
00:27:34,790 --> 00:27:36,349
You're talking about systems as in

992
00:27:36,350 --> 00:27:38,539
more of the like supply

993
00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:40,849
chain as a system or a customer

994
00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:42,349
journey as a system rather than

995
00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:44,749
literally technology

996
00:27:44,750 --> 00:27:46,189
that you're putting in place.

997
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:46,999
It's actually both.

998
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,049
That's what I mean. Whereas I think

999
00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:49,369
people think systems like you're

1000
00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:51,199
talking about whether you're using

1001
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,729
HubSpot or not, but we were actually

1002
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:54,769
talking about is the system

1003
00:27:54,770 --> 00:27:56,779
of the customer journey or the

1004
00:27:56,780 --> 00:27:58,219
interconnectedness system that is

1005
00:27:58,220 --> 00:27:59,509
the entire company.

1006
00:27:59,510 --> 00:28:00,949
So when I'm saying system, what I

1007
00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:02,929
mean, you have a business process,

1008
00:28:02,930 --> 00:28:04,729
right? We have the work that needs

1009
00:28:04,730 --> 00:28:06,379
to get done and you put in place a

1010
00:28:06,380 --> 00:28:07,819
process. Here's how that work is

1011
00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:10,159
done. The system is what facilitates

1012
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:10,999
that process.

1013
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,969
It could be the technology

1014
00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:14,839
that you're using.

1015
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,519
I mean, maybe it's a spreadsheet,

1016
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,739
but you have to have some framework,

1017
00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:20,599
some structure around how

1018
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:21,859
you're doing your work or else it's

1019
00:28:21,860 --> 00:28:23,089
just chaos and nothing can be

1020
00:28:23,090 --> 00:28:24,829
measured and you don't know why

1021
00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:25,849
you're getting whatever results

1022
00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:27,229
you're doing and everyone's
scattered.

1023
00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:29,059
You can't scale that way.

1024
00:28:29,060 --> 00:28:30,949
So a system is probably

1025
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:33,199
the combination of the technology,

1026
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,449
but also the process that

1027
00:28:35,450 --> 00:28:37,429
you're following to get work done.

1028
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:39,289
And if you think

1029
00:28:39,290 --> 00:28:41,119
through whether the metrics that

1030
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,919
I need to have, when you're putting

1031
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,539
those systems in place, you're going

1032
00:28:44,540 --> 00:28:46,159
to do it right and you're going to

1033
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,829
have clean data.

1034
00:28:48,830 --> 00:28:51,169
If you have the expectation that we

1035
00:28:51,170 --> 00:28:52,189
collect this data as an

1036
00:28:52,190 --> 00:28:53,869
organization, we have metrics that

1037
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:55,879
we follow and measure to when

1038
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,379
you bring a sales rep on.

1039
00:28:57,380 --> 00:28:59,119
You train them in the process for

1040
00:28:59,120 --> 00:28:59,989
collecting the data.

1041
00:28:59,990 --> 00:29:00,889
They're inputting the data.

1042
00:29:00,890 --> 00:29:03,109
And it could be HubSpot, it can be

1043
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:03,949
whatever.

1044
00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:05,779
And that's part of your culture

1045
00:29:05,780 --> 00:29:07,519
because they see, you're making

1046
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,929
decisions off of this, and that's

1047
00:29:08,930 --> 00:29:10,129
how we're growing. That's how we're

1048
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:11,659
scaling. You make that available,

1049
00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:13,189
you make metrics visible to

1050
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:14,749
everybody in the company.

1051
00:29:14,750 --> 00:29:16,489
They understand from day one how

1052
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:18,349
important those things that

1053
00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:20,419
people typically hate to do.

1054
00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:22,429
I've had the luxury of working

1055
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:24,739
for CEOs that get it and

1056
00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:26,569
understand how strategic

1057
00:29:26,570 --> 00:29:28,429
it is to a company to have that

1058
00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:29,539
data on hand.

1059
00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:31,189
I promise you, if you're having

1060
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:33,349
issues with the CEO, the second

1061
00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:35,359
that you show them a

1062
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,939
real time live

1063
00:29:37,940 --> 00:29:39,739
just simple dashboard that shows

1064
00:29:39,740 --> 00:29:41,359
them the metrics they care about,

1065
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,279
the answers and question every CEO.

1066
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,709
When you get past like 1020

1067
00:29:45,710 --> 00:29:47,659
people in a company, the

1068
00:29:47,660 --> 00:29:49,549
CEO can't be involved in everything.

1069
00:29:49,550 --> 00:29:50,659
They just can't.

1070
00:29:50,660 --> 00:29:52,909
What drives them nuts is

1071
00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:54,739
wanting to know how are we doing

1072
00:29:54,740 --> 00:29:56,329
and why are we doing how we're

1073
00:29:56,330 --> 00:29:57,319
doing, good or bad?

1074
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:58,669
You know, that's the question that

1075
00:29:58,670 --> 00:30:00,049
every CEO has.

1076
00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:01,729
And in operations, you're answering

1077
00:30:01,730 --> 00:30:02,929
that question.

1078
00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:04,939
If you build the system,

1079
00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:07,009
the metrics, the flow.

1080
00:30:07,010 --> 00:30:08,329
With that in mind, where you can

1081
00:30:08,330 --> 00:30:10,219
give them real time answers to that

1082
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:12,529
question, they're going to love you

1083
00:30:12,530 --> 00:30:14,389
and then you won't have to fight

1084
00:30:14,390 --> 00:30:15,919
them and they're going to be begging

1085
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,779
you for more because that's what

1086
00:30:17,780 --> 00:30:19,609
you need as an executive

1087
00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:21,109
to lead your business.

1088
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:22,639
Does that help put you in a good

1089
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,109
place for the acquisition?

1090
00:30:24,110 --> 00:30:26,029
So we're able to build business case

1091
00:30:26,030 --> 00:30:28,129
as well. What was the integration

1092
00:30:28,130 --> 00:30:30,079
like? Because I think some CEOs

1093
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:31,309
go, yeah, okay, I can have some

1094
00:30:31,310 --> 00:30:33,379
metrics, but a story about

1095
00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:35,689
how having good metrics means

1096
00:30:35,690 --> 00:30:38,419
a better evvie

1097
00:30:38,420 --> 00:30:40,009
that is probably more compelling for

1098
00:30:40,010 --> 00:30:40,669
most CEOs.

1099
00:30:40,670 --> 00:30:42,739
I know if you're considering

1100
00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:44,839
buying a business, right,

1101
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,939
you want to know why

1102
00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:48,769
is this business worth buying?

1103
00:30:48,770 --> 00:30:50,179
And at the end of the day, whether

1104
00:30:50,180 --> 00:30:52,699
you're raising venture funds

1105
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:54,199
around, whether you sell yourself to

1106
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,089
your cut, I mean, this goes back

1107
00:30:56,090 --> 00:30:57,409
to your question, how can operations

1108
00:30:57,410 --> 00:30:59,899
be strategic to a company?

1109
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:01,849
Everything you do boils down

1110
00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:03,319
to a mini business case.

1111
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:04,399
Why should we do this?

1112
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,319
What's the evidence that tells us

1113
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,669
that this is a good thing to do,

1114
00:31:07,670 --> 00:31:09,319
whether it's internal external data,

1115
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:10,669
but like, why are we making this

1116
00:31:10,670 --> 00:31:12,979
decision and how do we measure

1117
00:31:12,980 --> 00:31:14,719
if this was a good decision or a bad

1118
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:15,979
decision and pivot?

1119
00:31:15,980 --> 00:31:18,319
So coming into an acquisition

1120
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,629
and coming into raising funds,

1121
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:21,679
yeah, they want your data.

1122
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,659
They want to know all of your your

1123
00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:24,949
top performance metrics.

1124
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:26,119
Why are things going well?

1125
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,289
Why are they going poorly?

1126
00:31:27,290 --> 00:31:29,149
They need an answer for

1127
00:31:29,150 --> 00:31:30,319
you need to know the metrics they're

1128
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,459
going to be looking at. You need to

1129
00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:33,319
have a flow of data that

1130
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,879
honestly answers those metrics, but

1131
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,829
you also need to be out

1132
00:31:36,830 --> 00:31:37,639
in front of it.

1133
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,959
You don't want to wait until you're

1134
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,399
trying to raise around put all this

1135
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,019
in place because what's going to

1136
00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:43,999
happen is it's going to boil up.

1137
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,919
Hey, wow, we had this weird blip

1138
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,509
over here. Why did we have that blip

1139
00:31:47,510 --> 00:31:49,549
over there? And if your answer is,

1140
00:31:49,550 --> 00:31:51,259
I don't know, we just found it, you

1141
00:31:51,260 --> 00:31:52,069
know, you're going to look like an

1142
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:54,079
idiot. But if you can say,

1143
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:54,979
yeah, you know, we actually

1144
00:31:54,980 --> 00:31:57,049
recognize this dip

1145
00:31:57,050 --> 00:31:59,839
in conversion rates, our leads

1146
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:00,859
in Q1.

1147
00:32:00,860 --> 00:32:02,629
And we knew that that was never

1148
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:05,149
going to hurt sales in Q4.

1149
00:32:05,150 --> 00:32:07,009
And so what we did was instead of

1150
00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:08,449
doing this campaign, we shifted

1151
00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:09,979
those funds into another campaign

1152
00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:11,479
with higher conversion rates.

1153
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,129
And what happened is as a result,

1154
00:32:13,130 --> 00:32:15,889
sales in Q4, we nailed our forecast

1155
00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:17,419
because we were three months ahead

1156
00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:19,459
following the leading indicators.

1157
00:32:19,460 --> 00:32:20,809
You showed them that and that just

1158
00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:22,279
gives them. Confidence to give them

1159
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:23,449
trust.

1160
00:32:23,450 --> 00:32:25,999
And that's your job as a CEO, is to

1161
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,709
to have all that information on hand

1162
00:32:27,710 --> 00:32:28,819
and to have the story.

1163
00:32:28,820 --> 00:32:30,739
But the story comes out naturally if

1164
00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:32,389
you're following it in real time.

1165
00:32:32,390 --> 00:32:34,789
It gets awkward and clunky and

1166
00:32:34,790 --> 00:32:37,219
people can smell the B.S.

1167
00:32:37,220 --> 00:32:39,829
if it's something that you not

1168
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:41,539
addressed until you're pulling the

1169
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:43,189
data last minute for somebody who's

1170
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:44,359
asking for it.

1171
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,069
So if you think about what you just

1172
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:47,719
said and you had to break it down in

1173
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,609
terms of stages of development with

1174
00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:51,559
Cameo, in terms of what you did,

1175
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:52,399
just to give it a level of

1176
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,779
granularity as to what that looks

1177
00:32:53,780 --> 00:32:54,559
like.

1178
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,329
Coming back to strategic objectives,

1179
00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:58,099
Right? Like the first thing I did

1180
00:32:58,100 --> 00:32:59,959
when I came on is

1181
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:01,459
is towards the tail end of a year.

1182
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:02,899
So we had the luxury of kind of

1183
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:05,149
measuring how we performed.

1184
00:33:05,150 --> 00:33:07,159
And then it was putting in place a

1185
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,259
forecast model that

1186
00:33:09,260 --> 00:33:11,329
made use of our historical data

1187
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:13,609
drew on external information,

1188
00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:15,499
on market sizing and all this

1189
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:17,329
and, you know, industry metrics.

1190
00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:19,099
And let's create a forecast model of

1191
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:20,839
what we're going to achieve as a

1192
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,849
business over the next three

1193
00:33:22,850 --> 00:33:25,099
years and what are the metrics

1194
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,259
that are going to tell us,

1195
00:33:27,260 --> 00:33:29,179
like what assumptions are driving

1196
00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:30,829
this forecast model?

1197
00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:32,629
And you can piece all of those

1198
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:34,279
assumptions out into metrics.

1199
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,169
And okay, so here

1200
00:33:36,170 --> 00:33:37,309
are the assumptions we're making

1201
00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:38,419
that's going to drive this forecast

1202
00:33:38,420 --> 00:33:39,709
model. How do we measure those so

1203
00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:41,719
that we know that we're on track

1204
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,609
for this forecast or do we need to

1205
00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:44,899
shift things? Where do we need to

1206
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:46,789
shift things? And the forecast was

1207
00:33:46,790 --> 00:33:48,829
dynamic in that not just was

1208
00:33:48,830 --> 00:33:50,689
it applying to,

1209
00:33:50,690 --> 00:33:52,579
hey, this is the goal we want

1210
00:33:52,580 --> 00:33:54,529
to reach, but what are

1211
00:33:54,530 --> 00:33:56,299
the pressure release valves and the

1212
00:33:56,300 --> 00:33:58,069
ways to, you know, we have X amount

1213
00:33:58,070 --> 00:33:59,419
of funds right now.

1214
00:33:59,420 --> 00:34:00,829
We've decided we're not going to

1215
00:34:00,830 --> 00:34:01,639
raise money.

1216
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,769
So how do we use

1217
00:34:03,770 --> 00:34:05,899
those funds to get us

1218
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:07,819
from A to B, which is this

1219
00:34:07,820 --> 00:34:09,379
strategic objective, this goal that

1220
00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:10,789
we're setting, that that's

1221
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:11,928
attainable? You know, but it's a

1222
00:34:11,929 --> 00:34:13,009
stretch.

1223
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:14,749
How do we deploy those funds in a

1224
00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:16,158
way to get us there?

1225
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:17,749
Let's put in place metrics so that

1226
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:19,158
we know we're marching to that plan

1227
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:20,959
and we're using our resources to

1228
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,999
grow at the most

1229
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,129
sustainable possible rate.

1230
00:34:25,130 --> 00:34:27,229
Right? And we have like something

1231
00:34:27,230 --> 00:34:28,609
that we did that that was just

1232
00:34:28,610 --> 00:34:30,439
really, really impactful is

1233
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,879
we had this dynamic budgeting

1234
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,198
process. You know, you can't live in

1235
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:34,519
a world when you're bootstrapped and

1236
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,779
you're working to scale.

1237
00:34:35,780 --> 00:34:36,859
You can't live in a world where you

1238
00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:37,908
have a static budget.

1239
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:39,319
Never you just spend money when

1240
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,359
they're not showing results, right?

1241
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,249
So we put in place a plan

1242
00:34:43,250 --> 00:34:44,959
that was like our document, right?

1243
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,638
That we're working off of is

1244
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:48,349
spreadsheets. It's systems, it's

1245
00:34:48,350 --> 00:34:50,359
metrics that built that plan

1246
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,099
out. Define the metrics that would

1247
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:53,899
tell us how we're performing against

1248
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:55,729
it, and then

1249
00:34:55,730 --> 00:34:57,619
modified our system so that we could

1250
00:34:57,620 --> 00:34:59,869
collect that data in real time

1251
00:34:59,870 --> 00:35:01,549
and constantly see where we're

1252
00:35:01,550 --> 00:35:03,109
marching. We mean as an executive

1253
00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:04,939
team, we would meet weekly

1254
00:35:04,940 --> 00:35:06,859
to review where are

1255
00:35:06,860 --> 00:35:08,779
we on this path to

1256
00:35:08,780 --> 00:35:10,789
our strategic objectives and

1257
00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:12,469
how are we doing?

1258
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:13,819
So we've talked a lot around

1259
00:35:13,820 --> 00:35:15,679
building the operations for building

1260
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,239
the company.

1261
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:18,559
We haven't talked a huge amount

1262
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:19,639
about the exit.

1263
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,229
Looking back on what you've done, is

1264
00:35:21,230 --> 00:35:22,099
there anything you would do

1265
00:35:22,100 --> 00:35:23,419
differently or looked at everything

1266
00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:24,229
that you have done? Is there

1267
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:25,609
anything you would do differently at

1268
00:35:25,610 --> 00:35:27,589
your time at Mayo to put

1269
00:35:27,590 --> 00:35:29,749
yourself in an even better position?

1270
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:32,749
The time to prepare for an exit is

1271
00:35:32,750 --> 00:35:35,059
two years before you

1272
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:37,069
actually are going to need

1273
00:35:37,070 --> 00:35:38,539
to exit. The main thing that I would

1274
00:35:38,540 --> 00:35:40,429
focus on just sharply,

1275
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:41,659
like make sure you have your data

1276
00:35:41,660 --> 00:35:42,889
and your metrics there and ask

1277
00:35:42,890 --> 00:35:44,959
questions about your performance.

1278
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,789
You need to be able to answer that

1279
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:47,989
and you need to have clean

1280
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:48,829
financials.

1281
00:35:48,830 --> 00:35:50,869
It's so much better if

1282
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:53,419
you are internally auditing

1283
00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:55,429
your data, auditing your financials,

1284
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:57,289
answering the hard questions as

1285
00:35:57,290 --> 00:35:59,209
an executive team, as a CEO,

1286
00:35:59,210 --> 00:36:00,499
and then the rest of the

1287
00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:03,199
organization so that you can

1288
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,149
be more than prepared and show

1289
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:06,139
you're prepared when you start

1290
00:36:06,140 --> 00:36:07,819
having those conversations, those

1291
00:36:07,820 --> 00:36:09,679
negotiations, the stuff we've been

1292
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,209
talking about, systems, metrics,

1293
00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:13,489
forecasts, that applies

1294
00:36:13,490 --> 00:36:15,319
directly to having a successful

1295
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,279
exit.

1296
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,559
The next thing I would say is,

1297
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,179
you know, especially a startup, you

1298
00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:21,259
don't want to spend a lot of money

1299
00:36:21,260 --> 00:36:22,489
on legal.

1300
00:36:22,490 --> 00:36:24,589
But the reality is

1301
00:36:24,590 --> 00:36:26,599
that is such an important

1302
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,429
piece, especially when you

1303
00:36:28,430 --> 00:36:30,409
start looking at getting acquired

1304
00:36:30,410 --> 00:36:31,549
by a large organization.

1305
00:36:31,550 --> 00:36:33,469
So I would

1306
00:36:33,470 --> 00:36:35,569
strongly recommend spend

1307
00:36:35,570 --> 00:36:37,069
that time to make sure your employee

1308
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:38,869
contracts are exactly where they

1309
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:40,039
need to be in industry standards.

1310
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,869
Spend the time to make sure all your

1311
00:36:41,870 --> 00:36:43,639
customer contracts are where they

1312
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,079
need to be.

1313
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,939
Another one that's really big and

1314
00:36:46,940 --> 00:36:48,409
this is probably one of the hardest

1315
00:36:48,410 --> 00:36:50,779
ones that I've learned

1316
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:52,609
is not every customer

1317
00:36:52,610 --> 00:36:54,319
is actually a good customer.

1318
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,029
You're so desperate for money as a

1319
00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:57,139
startup is so desperate for

1320
00:36:57,140 --> 00:36:59,149
customers to show growth that you're

1321
00:36:59,150 --> 00:37:01,159
inclined to do things

1322
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,109
to just land an account

1323
00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:05,089
that sometimes

1324
00:37:05,090 --> 00:37:07,039
could come back to bite you.

1325
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:07,999
There's two things that could

1326
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,679
happen. One is you could find out

1327
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,599
that this customer segment that was

1328
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,669
easy to win early, right,

1329
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:15,859
is actually a higher churn customer

1330
00:37:15,860 --> 00:37:18,049
segment that's not going to be

1331
00:37:18,050 --> 00:37:19,729
as attractive to people you're

1332
00:37:19,730 --> 00:37:21,099
raising funds from or.

1333
00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:22,869
Or to a potential acquirer.

1334
00:37:22,870 --> 00:37:24,549
We have to take a step back and say

1335
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:26,319
what customers do we really want?

1336
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,449
And a lot of times the early stage

1337
00:37:28,450 --> 00:37:29,769
customers that you win to help you

1338
00:37:29,770 --> 00:37:31,479
get your business off the ground are

1339
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,489
not the right customers to increase

1340
00:37:33,490 --> 00:37:35,049
enterprise value long term.

1341
00:37:35,050 --> 00:37:36,999
And you want to shift into those

1342
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,589
customers that give you the best

1343
00:37:38,590 --> 00:37:40,449
growth and the

1344
00:37:40,450 --> 00:37:42,309
lowest churn and the highest

1345
00:37:42,310 --> 00:37:43,959
customer lifetime value to customer

1346
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,639
acquisition costs ratio.

1347
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,289
That's a metric I love.

1348
00:37:47,290 --> 00:37:48,669
And then another thing I would just

1349
00:37:48,670 --> 00:37:49,670
say is

1350
00:37:50,530 --> 00:37:52,389
on the culture piece,

1351
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:54,069
if something deviates from your

1352
00:37:54,070 --> 00:37:55,809
culture, whether it's a hire or

1353
00:37:55,810 --> 00:37:57,729
whether it's a strategic

1354
00:37:57,730 --> 00:38:00,189
decision in an investment,

1355
00:38:00,190 --> 00:38:02,559
if it just doesn't feel right,

1356
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,929
revisit that over and over again

1357
00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:06,819
and be sure

1358
00:38:06,820 --> 00:38:07,839
that that's something you really

1359
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,639
want to do before you do it.

1360
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:10,509
It's quite interesting that you're

1361
00:38:10,510 --> 00:38:11,889
talking about like so much of what

1362
00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:13,569
you just talked about today is the

1363
00:38:13,570 --> 00:38:15,189
metrics, follow the metrics, follow

1364
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:17,019
the data, and yet follow

1365
00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:18,579
your gut. Your instinct, your

1366
00:38:18,580 --> 00:38:20,619
culture is actually just

1367
00:38:20,620 --> 00:38:21,729
as important, if not more.

1368
00:38:21,730 --> 00:38:22,869
And so it's a little bit of where's

1369
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:24,699
the art, where's the science?

1370
00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:26,709
So I would just say this culture

1371
00:38:26,710 --> 00:38:28,569
should guide your starting point

1372
00:38:28,570 --> 00:38:30,519
decisions, right?

1373
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,129
Data will inform you how to

1374
00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:34,869
pivot after you make those decisions

1375
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:36,129
rarely where you make the perfect

1376
00:38:36,130 --> 00:38:37,779
decision or execute perfectly.

1377
00:38:37,780 --> 00:38:39,519
Right? So it's like your culture

1378
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,869
sets your goals, that your vision

1379
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:42,999
sets how you're going to operate

1380
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,589
as a business. Those are gut

1381
00:38:44,590 --> 00:38:45,599
decisions, right?

1382
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,039
You're making and then

1383
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,479
your judgment calls where there

1384
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,339
isn't data to tell you this is

1385
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:52,659
the right answer, or sometime maybe

1386
00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:54,069
the data does say something and it

1387
00:38:54,070 --> 00:38:55,629
just doesn't feel right because

1388
00:38:55,630 --> 00:38:56,799
there's something else there that

1389
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:57,969
you haven't considered.

1390
00:38:57,970 --> 00:38:59,619
But when it comes to this, like

1391
00:38:59,620 --> 00:39:01,569
planning, measuring, optimizing,

1392
00:39:01,570 --> 00:39:03,339
making sure everyone's accountable,

1393
00:39:03,340 --> 00:39:05,169
every meaningful decision

1394
00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:06,459
should be treated like a mini

1395
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:07,599
business case, like you should be

1396
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:08,859
able to justify why you made that

1397
00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:10,569
decision. And then a month down the

1398
00:39:10,570 --> 00:39:12,039
road, why are you continuing on that

1399
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,209
path based off of how you're

1400
00:39:13,210 --> 00:39:14,199
performing?

1401
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,029
Before we end, like to ask

1402
00:39:16,030 --> 00:39:18,069
you the final question, which

1403
00:39:18,070 --> 00:39:19,959
is if our

1404
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listeners can only take one thing

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00:39:22,090 --> 00:39:24,219
away from our conversation today,

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what is it?

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00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,009
Make sure you have in place the

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00:39:27,010 --> 00:39:29,289
systems and metrics

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00:39:29,290 --> 00:39:31,719
that tell you

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00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:33,339
your progress towards your strategic

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goals. Right? It's worth the time

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00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,329
to get that right because

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you need to know how you're doing

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00:39:39,070 --> 00:39:40,929
against where you want to go,

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and you need to know that in real

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00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:44,589
time so that you can steer

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00:39:44,590 --> 00:39:45,579
yourself there.

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That's the role of operations.

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And in my opinion, the best thing

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00:39:48,670 --> 00:39:50,499
operations can do is

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00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:52,629
create that so that an organization

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00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:53,739
can reach their strategic

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00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:55,059
objectives.

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00:39:55,060 --> 00:39:56,439
Lovely. So thank you, Shane Harris,

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00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:57,669
for joining us on the operations

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00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:58,719
room. If you like what you hear,

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00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:00,399
please leave a comment or subscribe

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00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:01,689
and we will see you next week.