Technology overshadowed this craft and skill of

architectural sketching and drawing.

And slowly but surely, it also replaced it at schools.

They don't teach it anymore or not enough.

So young professionals, very often, it's not their fault, but they didn't

have a chance to really learn this craft and to learn with a pencil, to learn,

to think with a pencil in their hand,

Welcome to Architecture Business Club, the show that helps

you build a better business in architecture so you can enjoy more

freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.

I'm your host, John Clayton, and if you're joining us for the

first time, don't forget to hit the follow or subscribe button so

you'd never miss another episode.

We're joined by David Drazil, an architect, author, and creator of

Sketch, like an architect, a global platform helping architects and

designers build confident drawing skills through a clear step-by-step method.

Originally from the Czech Republic, David studied architecture in

Denmark where he noticed a big gap.

Sketching was expected but rarely taught, and that's.

Insight sparked a mission that's grown into a worldwide movement

with over 300,000 followers, 15,000 plus students in his online courses

and three popular books today.

David empowers creatives to communicate their ideas visually

with clarity and confidence.

So head over to sketch like an architect.com to learn more.

David, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hey John.

Thanks so much for having me.

It's a pleasure to have you here.

I have been really looking forward to this conversation.

David, before we get onto our main topic around sketching, can you

tell me a little bit about the things you enjoy outside of work?

Sure.

Just as you I'm a dad.

I'm a dad first, so family comes first and two small kids keep me quite occupied.

And outside of that I like sports.

So all the different kind of stuff.

I used to play ultimate Frisbee actually at.

At an international level a couple years ago.

Yeah, way back.

I'm not getting any younger nowadays it's more working out.

It's swimming, it's MMA classes things like that.

And a little bit of sketching for myself as well as I'm learning to enjoy.

It's not only for the purpose of the sketch lagging architect as a

business, but also for my own pure selfish pleasure as I used to.

Oh, that's so cool.

You must be in good shape.

David.

You look like you're in good shape with all that sports stuff that you do.

But that the, the, the Frisbee thing, that, that sounds really cool.

How, How did that start?

How did you get into that?

It was at the very end of high school.

And we started messing around with Frisbee and one of our friends brought it in.

And it's a sport that comes from the US and I think from the fifties

and uh, we just started playing and we got more serious and we got

practices a couple times a week.

And we won some smaller tournaments in high school.

And then I uh, had a chance to represent the junior representation in Austria.

So it, it was like, yeah, we also won them.

The university games, so to speak, in the Czech Republic.

In, in, I don't know what was 12, sorry, 20, 20 11, I believe.

You know.

So at that time it was a great sport.

It's a, it's a, It's a lot about the spirit of the game.

It's a lot about third play.

There are no referees, you know, so everything is about.

The players handling all the rules, all the situations, all

the calls, and it's very athletic, a lot of running and jumping.

I think I like very much the community of people that it it brings together.

That sounds like a lot of fun.

David, we are gonna be exploring whether design professionals.

Still need sketching skills today.

It's a big question.

And obviously who better to answer these questions than yourself?

I mean, Particularly I think now that, things like 3D renders visualizations.

They can be created easier and quicker than ever now.

So what is the advantage of hand sketching compared to some of those options?

Very often when I when I speak at universities or conferences I

used to have that talk that kind of a keynote titled, is Hand Catching Debt.

And of course it's a little bit provocative, but of

course I'm biased as well.

But when we talked about 3D visualizations and renders and maybe

AI in, in today's day and age I think we're comparing apples and oranges.

3D renders.

Ah, they're beautiful.

By the way, I'm a big fan of all the technology and at one point I thought this

would be my career in the architectural visualizations, 3D rendering, Photoshop

Corona and Vray and all that stuff.

So I'm a big fan and I've used to actually do it in Denmark, in-house.

But when I say we compare apples and oranges, what I mean is that

3D renders does not equal thinking.

3D renders does not equal brainstorming or solving problems.

Sketching does.

So sketching is seeing, understanding, sometimes listening, brainstorming

solving problems, and also communicating those solutions.

So that's still to this day.

The fastest, most natural tool we can have and we can use to our

advantage as design professionals or in the a EC industry to, to do all

that stuff without any technology.

And very often because there is no technological barrier and we

have maybe the proverbial napkin or whatever we use, and a pen.

There's this instant connection between our mind and our hands.

It's been proven, lots of studies.

It helps us to get into the flow state where our creativity and problem

solving skills are at its peak.

It doesn't happen when we're clicking with our mouses and watching a screen

and have a keyboard in front of us.

That's a completely different mindset that we've entered with this, right?

So it's still something very human, very imperfect, but also something

that opens conversations and dialogues and gets people invested

in ideas that you have to share.

This is thought provoking stuff.

David.

Yeah, absolutely.

There's a very different way that your brain is working when you are sketching

versus, as you say, clicking on your mouse or your keyboard, coming up with

A 3D render with the latest AI tools.

It's a very different process that your brain is going through.

Really interesting.

What do you think are some of the personal benefits of sketching?

Clear mind confidence when going into meetings and also just.

If you can sketch a little bit, if you are comfortable enough, if you treat

sketching as, your ally and a tool, and you develop, you have a chance to

develop a relationship with that tool.

It brings you a lot of confidence to the meetings where you know, you can be

quick on your feet and when contractors or clients or any kind of investors,

are not on board with the idea.

You present, or they can't really visualize it or they have

additional questions, you can always sketch it out for them,

which makes them very interested.

It's very intriguing if you see someone drawing writing on a blackboard.

You kinda like you are stuck and you, you are waiting for them to finish the

letter so you know what they're saying.

Right?

It's, It's a similar thing.

We know it from school, so it's a similar thing when you grab a pen

and you start explaining yourself, your ideas, the solutions, what

you mean, people are suddenly more.

Invited into that conversation, and as I mentioned, it opens the

dialogue and because it's a sketch, it's just an imperf imperfect thing.

I very often myself or I recommend it to other people.

I finish my schedule or I suggest something and then I pass on the pen

or pencil as a gesture of invitation.

And because they see people they see that it's a suggestion,

it's a. Conversation opener.

They're more inclined to chime in and actually start the dialogue

and get actually more invested in whatever you're talking about.

So in this way, it's just a lot more about human connection, isn't it?

So it's a very human, imperfect but connection, opening and inviting tool for.

Any meeting you can have, especially in person.

But of course if you are alone, it's it's a great tool to understand

your own thoughts as well, because what we know is that the ideas don't

come out at us from the screens.

They don't jump out from Pinterest, right?

So we always need to start here, or iterate here, or brainstorm here,

or just sometimes go back here.

Go back to Blackboard.

And sketching is just the perfect tool.

The problem is you mentioned it a little bit at the beginning.

The problem is in the last couple decades, actually from nineties especially.

Technology overshadowed this craft and skill of architectural

sketching and drawing.

And slowly but surely, it also replaced it at schools.

They don't teach it anymore or not enough.

So young professionals, very often, it's not their fault, but they didn't have

a chance to really learn this craft and to learn with a pencil, to learn, to

think with a pencil in their hand, and.

The, that's the problem that we're seeing in in the real world and real life today.

It is still expected of us to be able to visualize, basically on the spot

with whoever we're talking to, but yet it, we are not taught how to anymore.

So where I realized that in when I was finishing my master's degree in Denmark.

I was exposed to very international environment.

A lot of students from all over the Europe, Denmark included.

And what I realized is I thought everyone would be kind of on

the same, same level as I was.

And I studied the Bachelor of Architecture here in Prague, and it was the

traditional one with still quite a big focus on sketching and drawing skills.

And when we moved to Denmark.

All these other students some had some experience, some were great.

Polish students were fantastic, but most other people, Danny students

included, they, they have never been really taught how to draw, how to

think like an architect with a pencil.

So that's where the idea emerged that, hey, maybe it's still useful.

It's still expected of us.

It was expected of us back at school.

It was part of the official methodology.

It's expected of us in real life.

It's super benefit.

It's a superpower for most architects and designers who are open to it.

Yet we are not taught how to, so that's where there was this idea that maybe I

can help with whatever background I have.

I can build on top of it.

I can package something together to help other people master the

basics of architectural sketching.

And that was basically the foundation of what Sketch like an architect is today.

Oh, there's a lot to unpack there, David.

So firstly, I just want to pick up on.

The a personal benefit that you mentioned about it being a mindfulness activity,

and you mentioned that in the beginning of our conversation when I was asking

you about what you do outside of work.

You mentioned that you are trying to do more sketching outside

of, it, within a work capacity.

Because it is a, an activity that helps with mindfulness and being present in the

moment, and there's something varying.

Tactile about it.

It's something that's real and tangible, isn't it?

You know, When you've got a pencil or a pen in your hand and you're not just

typing on a keyboard or using an app.

And also there was a number of benefits that you mentioned there which I

thought was really interesting.

The way that you are able to use sketching and inter early interactions with clients

or prospective clients to be able to.

Really quickly, come up with ideas and also to start that

process of collaborating and working together with them.

You mentioned about giving them the pen and say, Hey, you know, get involved.

Like Add your thoughts to this.

And that's just a really cool way to deliver on that promise

of like, you know, if you are.

Trying to be like a client focused practice where you really want to

engage and collaborate with your clients for the best results.

That's just a brilliant way to demonstrate that in those early interactions by

getting them directly involved in developing those initial design ideas.

Very few people do that.

Who does that today?

Let me tell you a bad story.

The bad story, bad scenario is, and it happens all the time.

Maybe you are with a new or prospective client, they

haven't signed a contract yet.

You're on the side with them.

Maybe it's a renovation, it's a dale, maybe it's interior or just a new house.

Whatever it is, you're on site with them.

Kind of building the report starting the maybe site analysis or seeing

the interior for the first time.

And very often what happens is ideas get thrown out here left and right,

and there's a lot of hand gestures, and this could be here and this big and

this proportional all the stuff instead.

Or what happens next is, okay, you as an architect or designer say, okay I

think I have an idea where we're going.

Let me get back to you in a week after I drafted out in CAD or sent

you some SketchUp model and we'll get back to you, in, in that week.

So what happens is that you don't really have anything tangible.

You don't know clearly the direction, and because of the weight, a

week or more, you're losing the momentum and you're losing very

likely the trust of that people.

So instead, what you can do is if you're an iPad person, you can bring your iPad,

take a photo, sketch into the photo, or if you are just traditional guy.

Grab a paper, start sketching on the spot very roughly.

And even if it's not correct, even if it's not what they had in mind, maybe even

better, they will tell you right away.

And that feedback loop gets a hundred times more efficient.

And you'll see their body language.

You see how they react, you see what they say and they'll tell you, and maybe

they grab a pen as well and they say maybe I thought of this more like that.

Right away you are getting somewhere.

So when you leave that meeting with a couple of sketches, either they won

the sketches, so they gotta hire you and you got business, or you get at

least clear idea where to go next, or also there may be number of red

flags on the way, and you say, okay, this is not the best fit for me.

So either way, you'll get much more informed and you'll be able

to do a better informed decision.

After that.

So it's also about saving time and this being a very efficient

tool of communication and unpacking a lot of the info.

It's it can be beaten with, a wait a week long wait and a

couple of emails or phone calls.

So again, we're, it's a lot about that human connection and interaction.

And of course it's, it might not be for everyone, but I know.

A few, not that many practices who use this technique and

strategy, and they are different.

I remember them because they are different and there are very

few people out there doing this.

It's cool to be better than other people, but the best is to be different.

Different is better than better.

So this is one of the differentiator that you can use.

Have you got an interesting story about running

your architecture practice?

Have you done something different in your business that's been hugely successful?

Or has a failure taught you an important lesson that you'd be willing to share?

Then why not apply to be a guest on this podcast?

Just click the link in the show notes to send us your

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Now let's get back to the show.

I love that.

I love that there's some very clear benefits that you've highlighted there.

Brilliant differentiator in this day and age when a lot of other practices

are very over reliant on digital tools.

And that speeding up that feedback loop as well to be able to, you.

Speed up.

That whole process of kind of sharing ideas and starting actually just

instantly starting to deliver some value with that new client is just fantastic.

And you know what I found in my experiences.

That the older generations, little older than me, maybe right now, they're in

their forties, fifties, plus, they're very often the owners, the managing

partners, the founders, and they're the decision makers at the companies.

And when I was in Denmark, when we graduated school I was looking for a job.

It was almost a year when I took up different internships and volunteering

work, and I was building the sketch and architect on the side.

But what actually set me apart from all the other young applicants.

Was my sketches that I brought to the interviews.

So I didn't bring just my portfolio, but I also bring.

Originals of sketches, a few sheets of paper.

And because the decision makers were older generations who were used to do

everything by hand at school and in their early days, they see the value because

they knew the value of hand sketching.

They knew how people can think with their pencil in hand compared to

purely digital approach, right?

So they see.

A clear value and differentiator and advantage me compared

to some other people.

And that's how I landed my first jobs.

And it was not just the one, it was a couple more until I found

a dream job where I stayed for the rest of our stay in Denmark.

And actually at that company, I was still asked to do hand sketches even

during my stay and for the practice and for different meetings and.

So I know how beneficial in real life, real practice it is both for very young,

up and coming architects and designers, as well as for the seasoned professionals.

And when I talk to the more seasoned professionals.

Very often.

Do you know what I hear?

I hear, oh, I wish I, I, I would sketch more often.

I regret not sketching anymore.

I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed the creativity that it brings.

It was my favorite part of the job.

Now I'm all day on emails and on phone calls and meetings.

They miss this part because they remember how creative and fun it was, and.

So it's a different day and age, and I'm not against technology, but I think

this is still a very essential and complimentary skill to have to all the

other digital technology that we have.

I think that's so cool that, being able to sketch actually helped

you secure some of those first job roles that you had in architecture practices.

Um, That's really cool.

As you say, something that was appreciated by the, the decision

makers in those companies, being from a different generation I've heard you.

Also talk about using sketching to close new client deals.

I think we sort of alluded a little bit to some of the ways that we could do this.

Could we give people a little recap on that and um, just outline some ways that

they can use sketching in those early interactions with prospective clients.

Just so that's really clear for people uh, for their next client

meeting that they might have.

Absolutely.

So we touched upon the scenario where you are actually at the site with

the client, whatever the site is.

If it's in, you're building the whole house, or it's a re remodel,

renovation, your interior, whatever it is, you can be sketching on the spot

and it doesn't have to be beautiful.

It just have, has to communicate some ideas that are, being

caught from the conversation.

So you're basically visualize visualizing the conversation as it goes.

And it's great for you, it's great for them.

You are getting on the same page, you're getting clear direction.

But the hook is that they don't get to have those sketches to use.

You don't leave them with them.

Until, or unless they, they sign with you and they sign a contract

and they commit to the process.

But very often this listening, the empathy part and visual

visualizing that conversation leads to quick trust building.

now they see it's clearly visualized what it could be and more.

So they are so much more inclined invested in choosing you as their architect or

designer or chosen professional, right?

So either they can leave you.

Have no sketches and nothing tangible and go find someone else, or they

can continue already with the trust build and that momentum that you have.

And that can happen either on the side or at your own studio, wherever you want.

But it's really a strong kind of catch for the right type of people.

Of course, there will be people who.

appreciate it.

We have all kinds of people, but uh, you'll know if it's a good fit, and

this is maybe a great qualifier to use to differentiate yourself, but

also get the right clients for you.

And also just a very quick way to do it without you having

to invest loads of time in going away.

And, And you know, as you mentioned, like working up a, a cad drawing or a

SketchUp model or putting together time consuming pitch decks and proposals.

It's just a really

Risk free.

Risk free.

free.

Yeah.

No wasting time.

You get immediate feedback.

There's not much to lose.

I really love that.

It's a great idea.

David, could you share perhaps one or two success stories from architects or

designers perhaps people that you've worked with or trained that have made

sketching a part of what they do?

Two, two comes to mind immediately.

And they're actually from the opposite spectrum of kind

of your journey or career.

So I had a student, her name is Chloe, and she went through my

sketch, like an architect course, which is the basic foundation course.

It's a six step framework where I teach with the foundation of

architectural sketching and.

She went through her course, she did the exercises, she did

the drawings, got some feedback.

Great.

But based on that course, she created something on her own.

And she got back to me to report on that six months later.

And she said, based on your course, I've created my own sketches now, which I used

to apply to architecture school, and now I got my decision that I'm accepted to

the architecture school because of that.

So if you're very early.

Student, pre-student of architecture.

It can be, sometimes there are still schools like here in Prague where

there are entrance exams and there are artistic entrance exams where

they actually test you on how well you draw so that you can be accepted.

So that can be one, one scenario, right?

The other is a recent one-on-one client.

Her name is Adriana.

He's a landscape designer based in the US and.

The story is different because she's more seasoned professional and she used to do a

lot of traditional sketching and drawing.

So she has decent drawing skills, but she wanted to move to digital space to

be a little more efficient, to be, to have something easier to share, easier

to edit, to bring it on the side, to bring different images into it.

We talked about digital sketching on iPad.

In this case specifically because she's a landscape designer we were focused

on more folio trays, which is the app on iPad, which was made by architects

for architects and other designers.

And it has not only it's adapted to the architecture and design

workflow, but it also allows you to.

Work to scale.

It's not just any sketching app like Photoshop, but you actually get

to measure things, measure areas.

You have rulers and all the traditional drafting tools.

You can work on site maps, you can import 3D models and all sorts of stuff.

And with Adriana we had I think five sessions and we basically

build her workflow transformed.

And transferred from traditional to digital using even some.

Of her blocks and kind of what, what she would use in AutoCAD as a block

and different symbols and furniture and planting schemes and things like that.

So we built a library for her and we built together her own kind of visual language

and system how to use portfolio trays to get up to speed with every new project so

she doesn't have to start from scratch.

And it's more efficient and can be even more impressive with the clients, right?

So that's a, that's another use case.

So as I mentioned, I'm not against technology, but I'm all about

building the foundation with.

Very often it ideally traditional tools, and then of course, you build

the skills that are transferable to any digital tool of your choice, even

if you learn to draw and then you want to switch to visualizations.

That knowledge and experience with building a good image, what makes a good

image, the perspective, the composition structure, the design principles, the

layer, the depth, all of that stuff.

Helps you and transfers with you to even digital visualization so you can make more

compelling and visual interesting images.

Right.

So it's, it's the foundational skills that don't go against technology, but

they are complimentary and it um, kind of boosts your other digital skills as well.

That sounds very cool.

Great stories.

Thanks for sharing those.

David, what would be the main thing that you would like everyone to take

away from our conversation today?

We talked a a lot about different, different angles, but I

think it all comes down to sketching and drawing, just being a universal

language that everyone understands.

Anyone can learn how to speak.

It does not require talent.

It's very often, oh, you have some God-given talents you've been born with.

No, it's a skill like any other.

It's teachable, it's learnable and anyone can really use it to their advantage,

especially design professionals.

So I think sketching being a universal language.

Not requiring talent is maybe a mindset shift that some people need to hear.

That's great.

It's very encouraging that this is something that.

Anybody can learn to sketch.

Absolutely.

Uh.

Is there anything else you wanted to add uh, particularly about

sketching that we haven't covered?

We've covered quite a lot of grounds, but if there's anything

else that you wanted to mention

Well,

I think we've quite nicely covered

I.

my approach, the journey.

Um, I'm still a big believer in the traditional sketching

as the foundation and.

Recently, over the last maybe five years, I've also fell in love with

the digital sketching on iPad.

So I'm in both worlds.

And it's not, it's not an either or question for me it's, it's both.

Sometimes it's, it's a mixed in between.

And what I see now where you can generate beautiful 3D visualizations

from sketches with ai, it's, uh.

that's another use case that is very new up and coming.

And again, having some basic drawing and sketching skills

will help you get there as well.

I just still believe it's it's a universal evergreen thing that's not going anywhere.

Sometimes I hear, of course, Hey, AI will replace this.

I would argue with that.

I think again, it's complimentary and foundational.

For anything AI can amplify for us.

So big believer in that and just don't forget that you don't need that talent.

And very often when we see other talented people, it's just they have years and

years under their belt and it wasn't the first try that, we are seeing.

So going through the process.

And finding the fun and it's a lot of fun on its own.

Maybe that's a little nudge that some of your listeners would appreciate.

And what gives them or get them pick up a pencil after some time.

Yeah, I think that's a great.

Place to leave it, I think, David, because, we could all do a bit more

fun in our lives and if we can bring and inject a little bit more fun into

our work and do more sketching and it's something that we can enjoy then why not?

There's all these other business benefits too, but it's something

that's enjoyable and accessible.

Why not give it a try if nothing else?

David, there was one other question that I want to ask you.

And I like to ask all of the guests on the show this, it's a travel question.

I, I like to travel and discover new places.

I was wondering if you could share one of your favorite places

and what you love about it.

So it could be anywhere near or far.

It could be as close as the local park or the other side of the world.

Does anywhere spring to mind?

I'll give you two.

Can I give you two?

Yeah, we'll let you, we'll let you have to.

Okay.

It is gonna be the places I will, I have lived in the

longest and one is Copenhagen.

Copenhagen is just a beautiful city.

It's an example for many other European cities with their approach to car

traffic and biking and work life balance.

And it's also very much developing.

So we left.

Six years ago already that we left Copenhagen and it's changed quite a lot.

So I'm looking forward to go back there myself.

So Copenhagen will be number one.

And number two is the city that we hosted a, an urban sketching retreat.

Two months ago in, in July with my friend Alan Ramiro, we went

around the city, around the river.

We drew bridges and churches and parks, and

Was this in Prague?

David?

It was in Prague where I'm based because it's

a, it's a beautiful city.

It's maybe underappreciated.

It's really historical.

Beautiful.

It doesn't combine that much modern architecture.

We have a few pieces, but not that many.

It's still very historic center and.

I'm very, very grateful to be living here.

It's so beautiful.

I'm still amazed by how nice it is and what it offers.

So yeah, two, two cities for me, very European, very close by.

You don't have to travel that far.

It's a couple hours, flights each.

So I would go with that.

Great recommendations I've.

Been to Prague probably five or six times over the years, not for

a few years, but I love that city.

It's a beautiful place.

Copenhagen is still on my bucket list, so that's somewhere I'm looking forward

to visiting at some point in the future.

David, this has been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you so much for taking some time out of your day.

Being a guest on the show can you just remind everybody.

The best place to connect with you online.

Absolutely.

Thanks so much for having me, for inviting me, and uh, if anyone wants to learn

more or just get in touch, I'll give you just one single place and that's.

My website, sketch lagging architect.com I think.

I believe you'll find everything you need there and you can also

contact me from there if you want to discuss anything else.

So sketch lagging architect.com and uh, I appreciate you listening and

what I used to say very often in my emails, in my videos everywhere, I

always end things with happy catching.

I love it.

Thanks so much, David.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode

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