1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,318 Amy Lynn Durham: Hey, everyone. Amy here. Welcome back to Create 2 00:00:04,410 --> 00:00:09,924 Magic at Work. This is part two of my conversation with Bill 3 00:00:10,016 --> 00:00:15,713 curse, and in this half, we go straight into the grief of deep 4 00:00:15,805 --> 00:00:21,686 fakes and how they can collapse our trust, and what happens when 5 00:00:21,778 --> 00:00:27,199 AI starts mediating our human conversations. And what do we 6 00:00:27,291 --> 00:00:33,172 risk losing with all of this in art, creativity, and what is the 7 00:00:33,264 --> 00:00:38,686 cost of trading imperfections, human imperfections, for the 8 00:00:38,777 --> 00:00:44,107 perfection of something a machine creates? So let's, let's 9 00:00:44,199 --> 00:00:47,140 get back into this conversation. 10 00:00:47,140 --> 00:00:50,878 Hey, it's Amy. Welcome to Create Magic at Work, where we cast 11 00:00:50,940 --> 00:00:54,679 visions for a future of work, where business decisions ripple 12 00:00:54,740 --> 00:00:57,989 outward to our teams, our communities, the planet and 13 00:00:58,050 --> 00:01:01,789 humanity as a whole. If you're ready to edge, walk instead of 14 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:05,283 sleep. Walk through your leadership. You're in the right 15 00:01:05,344 --> 00:01:07,980 place. So let's start making Magic at work. 16 00:01:07,980 --> 00:01:12,383 I had the most interesting experience I have to share with 17 00:01:12,459 --> 00:01:17,243 you that I don't know if others have, I'm sure they have. I for 18 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:22,103 me, it was interesting. I was in chat GPT, and I needed to talk 19 00:01:22,179 --> 00:01:26,355 to one of my credit card companies. I was negotiating a 20 00:01:26,431 --> 00:01:31,214 lower interest rate. I was just doing, like, some finance stuff 21 00:01:31,290 --> 00:01:35,466 in the beginning of the year, like trying to go through 22 00:01:35,542 --> 00:01:40,174 everything, and, you know, get organized. And I used chat GPT 23 00:01:40,250 --> 00:01:44,730 to help me negotiate. I said, Hey, this is what I want. I'm 24 00:01:44,806 --> 00:01:49,590 going to call this number give me the script what I need to say 25 00:01:49,665 --> 00:01:54,601 to make this happen. And the the experience was so interesting to 26 00:01:54,677 --> 00:01:59,612 me, because the other person was reading a script to me, yep, and 27 00:01:59,688 --> 00:02:04,472 then I was reading a script to them, and then they were reading 28 00:02:04,548 --> 00:02:09,483 a script to me, and then I would type real fast, and then I would 29 00:02:09,559 --> 00:02:14,191 read the script back to them, because I was trying to use the 30 00:02:14,267 --> 00:02:18,975 exact words for their system to get me what I needed. And they 31 00:02:19,051 --> 00:02:23,834 were, you know, just going off what their system was. And I got 32 00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:28,011 off the phone, I got what I needed, and I was like, we 33 00:02:28,086 --> 00:02:32,415 literally were just two robots talking to each other with 34 00:02:32,490 --> 00:02:36,743 human. I don't know what the word is, human in betweens. 35 00:02:36,819 --> 00:02:41,374 You'll probably have a better word for that than me. And I'm 36 00:02:41,450 --> 00:02:46,386 like, What the hell is happening right now? Like, this is insane. 37 00:02:46,462 --> 00:02:50,866 So anyways, AI mediating emails. Ai mediating relationship 38 00:02:50,942 --> 00:02:55,649 conversations. Ai like, what is happening? Because at work, at 39 00:02:55,725 --> 00:02:59,977 work, I'm sure everyone is experiencing this. People are 40 00:03:00,053 --> 00:03:04,685 popping in messages and slack. Copy Paste from Ai, copy paste 41 00:03:04,761 --> 00:03:08,861 from chat. GBT, happy to hop on a call. What helped me 42 00:03:08,937 --> 00:03:13,493 understand this? And it's like, what? What I'm like, I can't 43 00:03:13,569 --> 00:03:17,593 like. It's starting to really, I'm really feeling the 44 00:03:17,669 --> 00:03:22,149 disconnection, and I'm like, just f, just f, ing, type what 45 00:03:22,225 --> 00:03:27,009 you want to say, and let's hash it out if it's disrespectful or 46 00:03:27,085 --> 00:03:31,489 whatever, right? So then, on that other note, we're losing 47 00:03:31,565 --> 00:03:35,969 conflict resolution skills because we're just copy pasting 48 00:03:36,045 --> 00:03:40,600 shit back and forth to each other, and I can't with it, so I 49 00:03:40,676 --> 00:03:45,080 know I just unloaded on you. You're like, I told you, it's 50 00:03:45,156 --> 00:03:50,320 gonna be aI therapy. Well, help us. What do you have to say on that? 51 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:55,780 Bill Kirst: You know, it's interesting. It was probably two 52 00:03:55,780 --> 00:04:01,440 years ago. I was interviewed for a podcast, and it the very end 53 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,620 of it, they asked me very similar, like, what do you see 54 00:04:04,620 --> 00:04:07,380 in the future? It was a little little more sort of framed 55 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:15,120 positively, but and I answered at the time, again, this is two 56 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:21,440 years ago. We will be in a future where my agent is talking 57 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:27,560 to your agent and working through all of the work. And at 58 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,220 some point I will pop in and I will check what the agent is 59 00:04:31,220 --> 00:04:35,240 doing, and I will make some, you know, some recommendations, but 60 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,960 then the agent will go back and talk to your agent and and all 61 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:44,440 this work will be done between non human entities, and only 62 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,220 when the human decides to insert themselves and check for 63 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,980 verification or reliability or consistency will we have 64 00:04:53,980 --> 00:04:58,240 something to do. And I said it from the standpoint of imagine 65 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,440 how much more we could do. Imagine where we could spend our 66 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,880 time if we didn't have to do some of that mundane stuff. But 67 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:11,640 I had no idea that it would be this soon where what you just 68 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:16,980 described is taking place automatically. So your story is 69 00:05:16,980 --> 00:05:19,620 very relevant. People do this with their health care. They do 70 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:22,220 this with their credit card companies. They do this with 71 00:05:22,220 --> 00:05:28,040 their education. And the part that scares me is you were 72 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:33,860 vacating your body. You were literally going vacuous in that 73 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:37,640 moment. You said it yourself. I had a script. She had a script. 74 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:43,120 I said my script. She said her script. You were intermediaries, 75 00:05:43,180 --> 00:05:47,860 but barely, like barely you were typing. You had movement, but 76 00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:52,180 the part that was scary was there was no regard for the 77 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:56,380 person on the other line that was human, because you were 78 00:05:56,500 --> 00:06:00,660 placing your energy into a non human entity to give you 79 00:06:00,660 --> 00:06:05,280 answers, you ultimately arrived at the decision you wanted Yes, 80 00:06:05,460 --> 00:06:09,960 but how did you feel after that interchange, that exchange? How 81 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,320 did you feel when you got off the call? I'm curious like, what 82 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,520 was your body sensation? Was it I just won? I feel like 83 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:23,840 vindication, or and was it I feel I got what I wanted, but I 84 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,560 feel like, Was I there? I feel icky. Like, what? How did it 85 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,040 feel to you? 86 00:06:28,580 --> 00:06:33,080 Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, I felt good because I got, I reached 87 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:39,860 the goal that I needed to reach, and I also felt shame that I 88 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:45,040 didn't connect with like part of me thinks back, I think back to 89 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,180 that moment all the time, just to unpack it, because I am who I 90 00:06:49,180 --> 00:06:54,220 am, and I'm like, that was an actual human on the phone with 91 00:06:54,400 --> 00:07:02,760 me and and it was, there was no humanity in that interaction at 92 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:14,880 all, and are we okay with that? It felt very It felt very 93 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:20,780 dismissive of our humanity, and it felt very like we were 94 00:07:20,780 --> 00:07:23,720 discardable. Yeah. 95 00:07:26,780 --> 00:07:30,080 Bill Kirst: And the part which is even more terrifying now is 96 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,680 people probably know this story that we're reading about mult 97 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,040 book and claw bot, which, if you haven't read about it, I 98 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,320 encourage you to do so, because it's sort of taking over the 99 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,960 airwaves. But in essence, this is what's happening. There was a 100 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,560 there's a gentleman who spun up, essentially a Mac Mini, right? A 101 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,500 small, a small device. He used some of this agentic AI to 102 00:07:54,580 --> 00:08:02,460 create a social network only for agents, so the only entities 103 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:05,520 that could join the social network were non human entities. 104 00:08:06,180 --> 00:08:09,720 And at first it was a little bit like a parlor trick. It is now 105 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,860 grown where there are millions of agents in this social network 106 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,360 talking with each other. Again, no humans involved. They're 107 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,020 talking with each other. They're creating their own languages. 108 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,840 They're creating their own unions. They're creating their 109 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,460 own religions. They're creating subcultures. Whoa. There's all 110 00:08:28,460 --> 00:08:31,160 sorts of divisiveness in there. And here's where it gets really 111 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,840 freaky. They're creating their own synthetic drugs, and then 112 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:40,120 they are selling them to people, not real people, but agents in 113 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,080 their social network. So think about how quickly, in the course 114 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:49,540 of a week, a social network that was set up for agents as a 115 00:08:49,540 --> 00:08:53,800 parlor trick to showcase something has essentially turned 116 00:08:53,800 --> 00:09:04,320 into the worst variations of our shadows as as humans, division, 117 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:11,820 subdivision, scarcity, even the concept of of narcotics, like in 118 00:09:11,820 --> 00:09:16,380 this, you know, and and having crazy dealers, it's, it's 119 00:09:16,380 --> 00:09:21,320 absolutely mind blowing. And yet, I think it's teaching us 120 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:26,120 and telling us something about what we're what we're discussing 121 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,920 here, which is this is what happens when you give over your 122 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,940 humanity, and you give over your regard, and you separate out of 123 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:39,500 all of the things that make us worthy of connecting, worthy of 124 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:44,500 having discussion. I think your point around debate and 125 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:49,960 arguments and difference of opinion, all of that is, I don't 126 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,540 even I would normally say atrophying. I think it's more 127 00:09:52,540 --> 00:09:56,380 than that. It's, it's not just atrophying. It's, it's sloughing 128 00:09:56,380 --> 00:10:01,260 away like it's, we're losing it. We can't have. Have debates with 129 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:05,160 people. We can't have inquiry with people, because the minute 130 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,520 I ask a question, somebody on the other side of a screen 131 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,720 outside of my view is typing in my question to a large language 132 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,800 model, and they're not giving me their answer. They're giving me 133 00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:22,160 an answer. And again, we're right back to where you talked 134 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:26,420 about with the bird that wasn't real. If that answer that comes 135 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:29,660 back to me is assumed to have come from your heart space and 136 00:10:29,660 --> 00:10:33,500 from your mind, then I've now got an emotional connection to 137 00:10:33,500 --> 00:10:38,060 you in that Well, no wonder this is causing problems with 138 00:10:38,060 --> 00:10:40,840 people's relationships and friendships and therapists, 139 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:46,960 because you're you're having the serotonin reaction that we have 140 00:10:47,020 --> 00:10:52,960 in our neurobiological and down the road, you're expecting the 141 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,620 person to behave that way. Meanwhile, they've separated 142 00:10:56,620 --> 00:11:01,200 themselves from all of that interaction. So when push comes 143 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,060 to shove and we have to be ourselves, after relying on this 144 00:11:06,060 --> 00:11:11,400 for so long, the question remains, who am I? And I'm 145 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,120 vacant. I'm vacant out of my body, I've turned over my brain. 146 00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:19,740 There's aspects of my soul I don't remember. And when you put 147 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:22,820 that in a cauldron of society and all of the things that we 148 00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:27,020 can see in the headlines that is a recipe for disaster, and 149 00:11:27,020 --> 00:11:31,220 that's why I'm encouraging people to slow down right think 150 00:11:31,220 --> 00:11:35,240 about these. Just the examples you've given are so relatable. 151 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,860 Everybody can relate to that. But think about it. The next 152 00:11:39,860 --> 00:11:43,780 time you go to go to that keyboard or go to that phone or 153 00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:49,840 go to just take a beat, take a breath and ask yourself, are 154 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:55,240 there portions of myself that I'm giving over and at speed and 155 00:11:55,240 --> 00:12:02,280 at scale, I won't remember if I'm not careful, yeah. Hmm. 156 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:08,640 Amy Lynn Durham: Something came up for me when you were sharing 157 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:14,040 the bot world, that's what I'll call it, that was created. I 158 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:22,160 hear from some that they are conscious of how they're 159 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,600 speaking to AI to whatever AI tool they're using, because 160 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,320 they're afraid that when robots take over the world, they'll 161 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:35,900 come after the people that were rude. I'm asking you the 162 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:40,480 randomest crazy questions today in the chat, and I have to tell 163 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,780 you, I've had some fights with chat, GPT, like, cut like, 164 00:12:43,780 --> 00:12:46,900 because, like, cuss words, whatever. And when you brought 165 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:49,660 up that bot world, I thought of that. And then, you know that 166 00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:52,300 80s cult book, silver medal lover, 167 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:54,340 Bill Kirst: it's no, 168 00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:57,220 Amy Lynn Durham: oh my gosh, Bill, you have to read it. It. 169 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,440 Do I have it like? I always have it around anyways. Oh, here it 170 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:01,620 is. 171 00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:04,200 Bill Kirst: Yeah, silver medal lover. 172 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:08,100 Amy Lynn Durham: Okay, it's about that. What we're talking 173 00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:12,300 about. It's this really an athlete, yeah, you got to check 174 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:17,400 it out. Anyways. We could talk more about this, but yeah, but 175 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,160 yeah, what are your thoughts on, on that, on people that are like 176 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:27,920 mindful of what they're the way they're speaking to these 177 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:29,900 machines. 178 00:13:32,060 --> 00:13:34,280 Bill Kirst: You know, there's, there's a spectrum of belief 179 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,680 that people have, which is, it ranges from, it's all about 180 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:43,960 conservation of energy, meaning these AI, large language models 181 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,700 take a lot of power and water and cooling and so yes, thank 182 00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,460 you for there are people on one side of the spectrum. Yeah, 183 00:13:51,460 --> 00:13:55,660 there's people on one side of the spectrum that say it's 184 00:13:55,660 --> 00:14:01,800 better for me to be Curt short, you know, brief, because that 185 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,320 means I'm demanding less resources in its response. So 186 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:10,260 some people believe that if you put a pleasantry in there, you 187 00:14:10,260 --> 00:14:14,160 put a salutation, it's almost a waste of resources to these 188 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,980 things that don't have feelings, don't have emotions, they want 189 00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:19,620 you to get straight to the point. That's one side of the 190 00:14:19,620 --> 00:14:22,460 spectrum. On on the other side of the spectrum, there are 191 00:14:22,460 --> 00:14:27,440 people that believe again, these technologies are mirrors of who 192 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:33,620 we are. So if this thing, which is used by 300 million people 193 00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:40,240 every week, as a tool, as a an alongside as a curator, as 194 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,840 someone to check about these things if we rely on it as much 195 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,440 as we do, and we cut out our manners, and we cut out our 196 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,380 salutations and we cut out our greetings, then at some point 197 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:57,760 we're going to start cutting those out in our real life 198 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:02,220 existence. And that's Troy. Some because people spend more time 199 00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:05,160 with these technologies than they do, in some cases, with 200 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,200 their fellow humans. So habits form, patterns form, and before 201 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,740 you know it, they start to infiltrate your life. So those 202 00:15:13,740 --> 00:15:17,340 are, those are two different ends of the spectrum. I don't 203 00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:20,540 necessarily worry that when the robots are sort of turned on, 204 00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:23,240 they're going to have report cards of people and how they 205 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,980 talk to them. I don't believe that. I do, however, believe 206 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:36,260 that the way we interact with these technologies is telling us 207 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:42,040 both the the height and depth of our humanity. And I'm gonna, I'm 208 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,240 gonna cite an example here in a in a show that I absolutely 209 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,380 love, the remake of Battlestar Galactica. And those that know 210 00:15:50,380 --> 00:15:53,500 it know the story of the Cylons. And essentially, Cylons were 211 00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:57,760 robots that were very indistinguishable from the 212 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,760 humans. And it in the story, it's very, very much becomes an 213 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,660 us versus them, and obviously sort of war ensues between them. 214 00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:14,160 But what's interesting is in the story, the humans after so much 215 00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:20,840 violence and disregard and casting of others, and it was in 216 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,020 those moments that they were reminded how far they slipped in 217 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:27,860 their own humanity towards each other, right? Everybody was 218 00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:31,100 directing it, you know, at the Cylons and saying, We cannot 219 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,800 treat them the same for these reasons, because they're robots. 220 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,820 Nobody was disagreeing with that. However, what they were 221 00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:40,840 disagreeing with was because they'd gotten to a place where 222 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,700 they were so disconnected from their own humanity, they became 223 00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:49,300 judge and jury. Then they started treating their fellow 224 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:53,740 humans with that, those twinges of disregard and that was 225 00:16:53,980 --> 00:16:57,400 problematic. That was where they actually their society, started 226 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:03,000 to come undone. So my fear is that habits we use every day, 227 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,660 depending on how we talk to these devices, it's going to 228 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:10,620 creep into our day to day interchange with fellow humans. 229 00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:13,920 I don't want to lose manners, I don't want to lose greetings, I 230 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:18,360 don't want to lose debate. I don't want somebody telling me 231 00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:22,460 every idea I have is the best idea. Like, I'm not a fan of the 232 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:26,120 hyperbole. I'm not a fan of the superlatives. I'm not a fan of 233 00:17:26,120 --> 00:17:30,800 the sycophant right? Part of this technology. I like to stand 234 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:36,080 in the tension, and these tools are sort of wired to make me 235 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:41,320 addicted to the pleasantries. I don't want that. I also don't 236 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,220 want rude and crude. I'm definitely not. I've never used 237 00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:51,100 grok. I will never use Elon's technologies, the things that 238 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:56,680 are happening on the platforms, the way that they are using them 239 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,560 to do the nutifying right to take people's pictures and 240 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,420 remove clothes and, the eroticism that has been 241 00:18:03,420 --> 00:18:06,300 introduced in some of these things, I am not okay with that. 242 00:18:07,380 --> 00:18:12,960 In fact, I thought that was a line that they crossed that they 243 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,800 will never be able to get back. And they did it for money. Let's 244 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,140 be clear. They did it because, again, when push comes to shove, 245 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:26,060 if you really push people to the bottom of their brainstem to the 246 00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:29,840 lizard part of our brain, you know how they'll perform? You 247 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,480 know how they will show up? You know what addiction looks like? 248 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,140 You know what power structure is they're playing to that, to 249 00:18:36,140 --> 00:18:40,840 that, to that aspect on us. And I really wish we would wake up 250 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,640 and and say, Not today, not on my time, not on my watch, not on 251 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,420 my dime. And people have choices. You know, it's a small 252 00:18:49,420 --> 00:18:53,860 choice, but I've drawn that line. I will never interact with 253 00:18:53,860 --> 00:18:59,140 any technology that has been put together by Elon Musk, because I 254 00:18:59,140 --> 00:19:01,380 look at who he is, I look at who he's become, I look at the 255 00:19:01,380 --> 00:19:04,920 choices he's making, and I look at what happens to us as a 256 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,980 result of using those things. That's just my individual 257 00:19:07,980 --> 00:19:13,080 choice. That's my rebellion, if you will, to hold on to what I 258 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,360 have. It's interesting. I'll just share this one last thought 259 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:21,020 with you, and I'll pause. My dad read my book, and my dad's 83 260 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,580 and he said, I have questions, Bill for you about the book. And 261 00:19:25,580 --> 00:19:29,960 I said, Sure, let's, let's go, you know? And I was shocked. His 262 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,400 first question out of like 200 something, because we talked for 263 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,920 like two and a half hours. It was beautiful. His first 264 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,140 question was, you know, Bill, I noted that you not once 265 00:19:41,140 --> 00:19:45,100 mentioned Elon Musk in your book. I kind of feel that was 266 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,720 intentional, but I'm not sure, Was it intentional? And I just 267 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:55,180 smiled, and I said, Yes, it was, and he understood exactly what I 268 00:19:55,180 --> 00:20:01,680 meant, right? Which is I believe that those weak. Of space and 269 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,640 pages and voice and breath to we're kind of giving our power 270 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,380 to them in a way regard, as we've discussed, and it was just 271 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:14,820 very clear in my body, like, do not give time, space, Grace, 272 00:20:14,820 --> 00:20:20,480 page, print, voice to this person while his story is unique 273 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:26,720 and fascinating. I'm I just did not need to give any more to it, 274 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,360 because I don't feel the contributions are helping us go 275 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:30,200 in the right direction. 276 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,540 Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, that's so tight, like timely in our 277 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:39,140 conversation, because I was literally going to ask you, what 278 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:47,140 do you fear we've already lost, or Or what do you fear we will 279 00:20:47,140 --> 00:20:53,500 lose and realize it's too late. And you, you were speaking to a 280 00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:58,780 lot of that. But if you could sum up, you know, one or two 281 00:20:58,780 --> 00:21:06,600 things where we are today. What do you feel like moving forward 282 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,460 today? Will realize, oh, shoot, it's too late. We've lost it. 283 00:21:12,780 --> 00:21:18,960 Bill Kirst: Yeah, I feel the arguments that we were having, 284 00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:24,740 the things I was losing sleep about years ago. Were things 285 00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:28,640 around the arts, were things around creativity. Were things 286 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,820 around the movies. The movie strikes, right? The studio 287 00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:36,860 strikes, the actor strikes the we talked about the Olympics, we 288 00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:44,020 talked about journalism. I feel like we've we've lost on these I 289 00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:48,520 feel like the the deal that Disney struck with open AI, a 290 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,620 billion dollar deal, I feel like we lost, and we lost the magic 291 00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:59,800 and the distinct and divine, unique creativity that comes out 292 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:07,740 of a Disney animator, I feel like we've lost the the beauty 293 00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:12,240 and imperfection and ballad that comes out of a songwriter when 294 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,040 they're just tinkering around with keys and instruments and 295 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,920 ideas and words, because now we have suno, and People go into 296 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,500 suno and they put in their poetry or their words, and they 297 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:28,940 say, I'd like it to sound like this artist and this beat with 298 00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:36,620 these percussions and and you can get 86 variations thereof. I 299 00:22:36,620 --> 00:22:39,980 know people who are very excited about that. Again, if you're not 300 00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:43,540 an artist, and you've always dreamed of that. It is an 301 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:48,640 entryway, for sure, it unveils so much that you can bring your 302 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,520 words to life, and you can do a first draft and give it to a 303 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:58,720 songwriter. But we've lost the magic. We've lost the mystery, 304 00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:04,020 like I think about producers like Linda Perry, you know, lead 305 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,540 singer of four non blondes back in the day, but one of the 306 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:12,060 greatest producers of Christina Aguilera and pink and and you 307 00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:17,040 think about the the container that she created that allowed 308 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,880 these artists to fold into themselves in a vulnerable way, 309 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,440 to then expand and give us some of the greatest music and art 310 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,880 and pieces that literally helped people like us heal at a point 311 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,620 in our life. And I think we've we're losing that. We're losing 312 00:23:36,620 --> 00:23:41,200 the ability to defend and protect those containers of 313 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,280 imperfection. If everybody goes into suno and puts their poem in 314 00:23:45,820 --> 00:23:49,540 and gets incredible sounding music, but it is not a human 315 00:23:49,540 --> 00:23:52,480 singing it. It is not a human performing the music. It is not 316 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,040 a person beating on those drums for percussion, and those things 317 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,180 are put on Spotify, and those things are put on YouTube and 318 00:24:00,180 --> 00:24:04,200 like you with the bird and your friend, there was a point where 319 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:07,440 there was an artist that I thought I was following. I loved 320 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,340 the timbre of his voice, I loved the lyrics. I was like, wow, 321 00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:14,280 this is a poet I have not heard from since listening to 322 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,860 Secondhand Serenade, right? A group, a gentleman I used to 323 00:24:16,860 --> 00:24:21,260 listen to years ago, and I learned three weeks later, 324 00:24:21,500 --> 00:24:24,380 completely AI generated. This person doesn't exist. It's a 325 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:28,220 group of people that collaborate and tug on the heartstrings of 326 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,960 people like me, and they put it in Spotify. I grieved. I was 327 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:38,000 angry. I was mad. I felt duped. Nowhere in there did it say, AI, 328 00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:41,620 I think it should have. And then somebody pulled me aside and 329 00:24:41,620 --> 00:24:45,040 said, Bill, you're really upset, but those songs you really 330 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,520 enjoyed, did they help you in a way? And I said at the time, 331 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:54,220 yeah, but now I feel like it was a contract that's been broken, 332 00:24:54,700 --> 00:25:00,240 and I can't get that trust back. So for me, I'm terrified. What's 333 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,780 going to happen the arts, the I feel like the movie houses. I 334 00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:07,620 feel like the studios. This whole debate over Netflix versus 335 00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:11,040 paramount for Warner Brothers, there's a reason they want to 336 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:16,080 buy Warner Brothers. It's 100 years of movies, 100 years of 337 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,360 movies that were made by humans before all this existed. What? 338 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:23,660 Are we hungry for? Amy, we're hungry for nostalgia. We're 339 00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:28,100 yearning for what is real. I listen to, you know, what do I 340 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:31,760 do now when I drive into my commute, I pulled out my old 341 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,420 case logic, which had hundreds of CDs from when I was in high 342 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,980 school, and I'm choosing to put the CD in the car, yep, and 343 00:25:39,980 --> 00:25:44,200 listen to the CDs on the way to work, because it's a container 344 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,680 of nostalgia in a world that is showing me all the stuff that's 345 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,100 not real. I'm like, You know what was real? Me listening to 346 00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:56,800 Lisa Loeb on the CD in high school and feeling the angst of 347 00:25:56,860 --> 00:26:00,460 adolescence that was real. And if I get to do that for 20 348 00:26:00,460 --> 00:26:02,980 minutes in a car on the way to work and 20 minutes on the way 349 00:26:02,980 --> 00:26:05,880 minutes on the way home. I'm a better person for it. So 350 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,260 interestingly enough, that's what I'm grabbing on to books, 351 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,580 CDs, vinyl, right? We talk about the imperfections, the clicks 352 00:26:14,580 --> 00:26:18,840 and the pops on a vinyl is, oh my god. It's like chef's kiss. 353 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,000 And if you listen to things on Bluetooth and Spotify and Apple 354 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,560 Music, it all sounds air gapped now, like, Where, where is, 355 00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:33,020 like, where's the imperfections to where we started. And I feel 356 00:26:33,020 --> 00:26:36,980 we're losing this. And so every act that I'm choosing to do is, 357 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:42,760 is, is pulling one more thread. And at the end of it, I hope I 358 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,520 can make, as we talked about it, the analogy, I hope I can make a 359 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,060 quilt or patchwork of some sort, that no matter what's happening 360 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:52,060 in the world around me, I can wrap myself in that quilt and 361 00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:55,240 know that I'm okay, like, these are my bones, these are my 362 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,980 limbs. This is my heartbeat. These are my tears. And I don't, 363 00:26:59,980 --> 00:27:01,260 I don't I don't lose that. 364 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:11,340 Amy Lynn Durham: Yeah, it's so I can I can see the the I can see 365 00:27:11,340 --> 00:27:16,440 the the humanity ripped out of everything you're talking about 366 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,960 when, even when we're trying to find something to watch on, like 367 00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:27,800 the art of storytelling is just crap. Like, I don't know what's 368 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,240 going on, but and there's nothing original coming. They're 369 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,760 trying to remake the old stuff you were talking about that we 370 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,120 loved and that we held on to, and then they're just pumping 371 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:42,580 out remakes of that with nothing original. And then it's, like, 372 00:27:43,420 --> 00:27:48,640 washed over with without any of the the gaps or the there's, 373 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,220 it's just, it's off, is just what I'll say. 374 00:27:52,780 --> 00:27:55,540 Bill Kirst: So with everything we've 375 00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:58,060 Amy Lynn Durham: talked about, I could literally talk to you for 376 00:27:58,060 --> 00:28:01,800 eight hours. We probably need to do like, a 20 million series 377 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,980 because I didn't even get to half of the stuff I wanted to 378 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:09,120 get to. But it's fine, because with everything that we've 379 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:15,060 talked about so far since last time I asked you, what can you 380 00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:20,660 sense, but not yet see, I want to ask you in closing, what does 381 00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:25,520 it look like if you extend your vision even further into the 382 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:34,880 future? What do you see if you do that like, like, like, have 383 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,520 your vision or what of what you can sense when I see but then 384 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,260 even extend it further into the future? What can you share with 385 00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:41,980 us on that? 386 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,160 Bill Kirst: Yeah, I think when we talked last time we we sort 387 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,280 of orbited around essentially what I was almost calling like a 388 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,600 reverse Renaissance, and we anchored on the that which is 389 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,500 crafted by humans. I think what's going to be interesting 390 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:04,260 is, if I take it further, I think there's going to be an 391 00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:08,280 extension there of so it's not just that which is crafted by 392 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,560 humans, but I think it's going to be about the ingredients that 393 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,220 actually people pull into crafting anything. And so to 394 00:29:17,220 --> 00:29:21,320 your point around what is the sources of inspiration, right? 395 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,020 I'm, I'm gonna extend it further, but in some sense, I'm 396 00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:28,760 actually go deeper by doing so and asking, what are the sources 397 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:34,160 of inspiration that people go to in order to excuse me, the voice 398 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,680 goes, because we're talking about things that are emotional. 399 00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:41,680 We want energetic, but, yeah, we're not editing it. People are 400 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:48,100 going to hear it. Proof of Life, folks, proof of life. I think 401 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:52,420 people are going to go deeper to the wells of inspiration in 402 00:29:52,420 --> 00:29:57,580 order to craft something that lasts longer, right? And so if 403 00:29:57,580 --> 00:30:01,440 we think about the technologies that we're. Using every one of 404 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,880 them have a shelf life. I mean, at some point the money is going 405 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,020 to run out, and at some point a large language model is just not 406 00:30:10,020 --> 00:30:13,200 going to be there to respond to you. And then what are you left 407 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,340 with? What are you left with to turn to? What well of 408 00:30:17,340 --> 00:30:21,320 inspiration Are you going to turn to to to then form your 409 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,240 words, or form your your woodwork, or your clay, whatever 410 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,720 it is you're going to want to touch something, make something 411 00:30:29,780 --> 00:30:34,880 that has a lasting legacy. And in a way, I feel like we're 412 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,060 almost going to have, you know, think about it when people 413 00:30:38,060 --> 00:30:41,920 discovered an artifact from the Paleolithic era, right? And they 414 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,940 said, Oh, wow, this was made for this reason at this time. And 415 00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:49,120 what were they going through at the time, right? And we have the 416 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,320 luxury of history and knowing and artifact and record keeping. 417 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,440 I don't know what that will look like in the future, because if 418 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,040 we're putting all of this artifacting and record keeping 419 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,240 and discussion into these devices, into these large 420 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:08,220 language models, and at some point the power turns off. Well, 421 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:11,580 you don't have access to it. What do you have to show for all 422 00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:17,940 of this? That's why I want I want illustrators. I want 423 00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:22,040 musicians. I want people that, and I'm seeing this 424 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,860 interestingly. I'm seeing this. I'm seeing friends of mine 425 00:31:25,220 --> 00:31:30,200 relearn piano by ear, and they're filming themselves, and 426 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,260 they're playing and they're making mistakes, and they love 427 00:31:33,260 --> 00:31:36,980 it, because people are reaching out to them and saying, You've 428 00:31:36,980 --> 00:31:40,780 inspired me to tap into a deeper Well, I'd forgotten, to your 429 00:31:40,780 --> 00:31:44,620 point, around nostalgia, I had forgotten. This meant something 430 00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:48,280 to me when I was right. Somebody recently reached out to me and 431 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,300 said they've started to go back to watch old classic movies and 432 00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:56,380 musicals and things where they knew when the light hits a 433 00:31:56,380 --> 00:31:59,680 certain scene, you knew. You can imagine what it took to make 434 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,660 that happen, the costumes, right? I think about people who 435 00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:09,600 design sets, and they're terrified, because you can just 436 00:32:10,020 --> 00:32:13,440 AI, generate something in the background, but we know the 437 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,220 difference. And I think if you fast forward all of this, I 438 00:32:17,220 --> 00:32:19,980 think our discernment, our filter for understanding what's 439 00:32:19,980 --> 00:32:23,060 real and what's not, is only going to get better, and at some 440 00:32:23,060 --> 00:32:25,940 point like that, people are going to stop, they're going to 441 00:32:25,940 --> 00:32:31,700 stop coming and then, and then you're left with, now what? So I 442 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:35,840 don't, I don't want to end on a dystopian and so I want to, I 443 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:40,300 want to leave it based on the fact that it's I'm giving people 444 00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:45,700 permission to go for a deeper Well, in all of this, 445 00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:52,120 Amy Lynn Durham: yeah, so good, so good. And I think you're 446 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:59,560 leaving us with questions, which is good rather than, I mean, we 447 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,240 talked about a lot of answers too. But I think this 448 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:08,820 conversation is leaving us with questions of, how do I want to 449 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,960 be in my day? Am I going to pause and question what I'm 450 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:18,240 putting into this machine right now, how I'm behaving when I'm 451 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,440 interacting with another human, all of these things, and this 452 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,900 conversation was so deep, but my takeaway is more questions in a 453 00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:38,300 good way, and not throwing my CD player away. Yeah, my DVD 454 00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:42,880 player. No, this was so amazing. Bill, okay, I know. I really 455 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,600 want to pull the magical edge Walker cards into the end of our 456 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,840 conversation, because we're both, you know, edgewalker 457 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:55,300 facilitators, and we one of the characteristics of an edge 458 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:58,840 Walker is to look to the future with creative, positive 459 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,300 visualization. And so I want to leave everyone with some light 460 00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:08,100 and some hope, and I think we did in this conversation. So let 461 00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,640 me pull a card from the edge Walker deck for us and just kind 462 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,680 of give everybody listening and you and I an affirmation from 463 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,280 Judy, dr, Judy Neal that authored them to take with us 464 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,440 surround. Surrounding this. I just got the chills. 465 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:35,480 Oh, I'm all chilled up over here. Okay. Bill one, two or 466 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:44,620 three, three, we got connecting, which is an edge Walker skill, 467 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,840 connecting the ability to value others, to see their uniqueness 468 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,120 and to draw out the best in them. Oh, wow. I am curious and 469 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,420 interested in people who are seemingly different from me, and 470 00:34:58,420 --> 00:34:59,920 I enjoy reaching out to them. 471 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,100 Bill Kirst: And, wow, if that's not spot on, right? We were 472 00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:06,720 talking about, yeah, 473 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,736 Amy Lynn Durham: it's beautiful. I can't I mean, it's just so in 474 00:35:10,806 --> 00:35:15,295 line with our conversation. I'm curious and interested in people 475 00:35:15,365 --> 00:35:19,854 who are seemingly different from me, and I enjoy reaching out to 476 00:35:19,924 --> 00:35:23,922 them, like, put the machine away, talk to someone, make a 477 00:35:23,993 --> 00:35:28,131 mistake in your language, if you hurt someone's feelings on 478 00:35:28,201 --> 00:35:32,479 accident, learn how to conflict resolve as a human being. Try 479 00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:36,758 not asking chat GPT first, and see what the hell happens. Is 480 00:35:36,828 --> 00:35:40,756 what I Yeah, that's a whole other episode that hopefully 481 00:35:40,826 --> 00:35:45,245 maybe we can talk about again. But Bill, oh my gosh. Just thank 482 00:35:45,315 --> 00:35:49,383 you so much for your time. I know how busy you are. I know 483 00:35:49,453 --> 00:35:53,802 that all of the amazing things that you're doing, and I'm just 484 00:35:53,872 --> 00:35:57,870 really, really grateful and appreciative that you donated 485 00:35:57,940 --> 00:36:02,219 your time today to share your thoughts with all of the Create 486 00:36:02,289 --> 00:36:06,497 Magic at Work community on all of this. So thank you so much 487 00:36:06,567 --> 00:36:07,620 for being here. 488 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,820 Bill Kirst: You're very welcome. It's an honor, and I hope this 489 00:36:11,820 --> 00:36:14,340 episode finds its way to those it needs to be heard by. 490 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,780 Appreciate it. Yeah. 491 00:36:15,779 --> 00:36:18,907 Amy Lynn Durham: Thank you so for everyone listening, Bill's 492 00:36:18,979 --> 00:36:23,053 Book link will be in the show notes as well as our prior 493 00:36:23,126 --> 00:36:27,709 conversation. And if you don't follow him on sub stack, you are 494 00:36:27,782 --> 00:36:32,219 so missing out because one of the most amazing writers I have 495 00:36:32,292 --> 00:36:36,511 ever read, and he has these incredible dreams that he then 496 00:36:36,584 --> 00:36:41,167 puts pen to paper for all of us to experience. So check him out 497 00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:45,896 on sub stack as well and again, Bill, thank you for sending some 498 00:36:45,969 --> 00:36:48,879 magic to everyone today. Thanks be well. 499 00:36:48,879 --> 00:36:52,985 I want to thank each and every one of you for being here as we 500 00:36:53,051 --> 00:36:57,091 explore what it really means to Create Magic at Work. If this 501 00:36:57,158 --> 00:37:01,463 conversation resonated with you, or if someone came to mind while 502 00:37:01,529 --> 00:37:05,503 you were listening, share the episode with them. Help others 503 00:37:05,569 --> 00:37:09,543 who are looking for these types of conversations find us and 504 00:37:09,609 --> 00:37:13,120 don't forget to follow, subscribe, rate and review so 505 00:37:13,186 --> 00:37:17,094 you're notified when the next episode airs until next time. 506 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,803 Keep edge walking, keep challenging the way things have 507 00:37:20,869 --> 00:37:24,380 always been done, and keep making magic at work. You.