REmaster

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 48 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Authenticity

[00:00:06] Sarah: I think that's the other part of it. As much as I, I wouldn't say I'm lazy, but I'd say I'm selective in my energy output. So if there's an option to reduce how much energy I'm putting on things, especially if it's not giving me much in return, then I'm going to take it. And I found like the more I let go of having to play a role or put a mask and just brought my authentic self, it was, it was easier.

[00:00:36] There was far less thinking. Like I didn't have to be like, okay, how's this person going to respond? What are they going to think? And how do I move accordingly? Okay. It was very much, I'm going to be myself. And whatever comes from that, I'll deal with it.

[00:00:51]

[00:00:51] Ross: Peasoopers, I'm delighted to introduce you to Dr. Sarah Pegram. Sarah is a clinical psychologist, Peer reviewed Act trainer, curator of the Act Body Project, and author of the book, break the Binds of Weight Stigma Free Yourself From Body Image Struggles using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

[00:01:11] In this episode, you'll find out a bit more about Sarah, in particular three pivotal moments in her life, which involved being told she wasn't enough. The loss of her mother discovering act. Moving from Australia to Canada and realising that she was hiding from the world and feeling disconnected and unfulfilled.

[00:01:31] And of course, she shares what she did in response to that realisation.

[00:01:35] And of course, you'll also hear Sarah's song choice. Now, pea soupers, at times the sound quality isn't perfect. I've tried every which way to enhance the recording for your listening pleasure. Including a sound engineer. So, just a reminder that there is a transcript if you don't catch every word.

[00:01:53] And at one point I do jump in and repeat Sarah's words. Just so that you don't miss out on her inspirational [00:02:00] story. Due to a fade in the recording.

[00:02:02] For those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hi, hola, welcome to the community. for those who are more familiar, welcome back. Thanks so much for joining us. PeopleSoup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun.

[00:02:37] Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:43] Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode, which was the first part of my collab with Dr. Richard McKinnon. Claire Stafford on Facebook said, Very excited for this collaboration. I totally resonated with the idea of expecting things to get easier as you move towards your values. Dammit! Because, it actually feels so much harder and I'd love to get back into my safe box of comfort, even if it makes me miserable.

[00:03:11] When I first experienced ACT with you, Ross, I was blown away by how you joined us on the journey. I hadn't experienced that before and I loved it. Looking forward to the next episode. And Rose Horton Smith on Instagram said, What a fabulous episode and collaboration. So excited to hear more.

[00:03:27] Already feels so relatable. Great to hear you both. A great team. Well, thanks to Rose and to Claire and to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed.

[00:03:39] The more you make noise about the podcast, the more people we have the potential to reach. So thank you so much. Now, P Supers, you might have heard the new bookmarks have landed. Each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple of our freshly designed bookmarks dispatched by my dad in the Global Distribution Center in the Northeast Powerhouse.

[00:03:58] a review or give us your feedback? The [00:04:00] first bookmarks will be dispatched this week. The first bookmarks will be dispatched this week. So please do keep reviewing, rating, sharing and talking about the podcast.

[00:04:09] You're helping more people find us and all that useful people soup stuff.

[00:04:13] You may have heard about my Act in the Workplace Trainer Trainer Program. It is now rapidly approaching, starting the end of April. If you'd like to bring evidence based training to support well being and psychological flexibility, then look no further. Details are in the show notes, including the discount code.

[00:04:30] So, for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with the wonderful Sarah Pegram.

[00:04:41] Dr. Sarah Pegram, welcome to PeopleSoup.

[00:04:44] Sarah: Thank you for having me.

[00:04:46] Ross: I'm delighted to have you here. Now Sarah, I know you're a P Super, so you'll be familiar with my research department. So I just want to share what they've come up with about you. And remember to keep your ears peeled, because they're not always entirely accurate.

[00:05:02] Sarah: Ah.

[00:05:03] Ross: You're looking a little bit alarmed there now, so I think I'll just dive in.

[00:05:07] Sarah: Yeah, that's, that's, that's fair, like the anxiety is, oof, what dirt is going to be brought up?

[00:05:13] Ross: So it says here, Dr. Sarah Rim is a clinical psychologist. She completed her training in Australia and her PhD research explored the lived experience of people who had recovered from anorexia nervosa, seeking their views on the key contributors to the onset maintenance and recovery from the disorder.

[00:05:32] While completing her degrees, she worked as a drug and alcohol counsellor in Melbourne and as a community mental health specialist in Tasmania. How are we doing so far, Sarah?

[00:05:42] Sarah: So far, it's, it's gone back a little while in the memory recesses, but we're spot on.

[00:05:46] Ross: Excellent! In 2008, Sarah moved to Newfoundland in Canada where she provided individual and group therapy as well as the development and evaluation of an outpatient eating disorder programme. [00:06:00] moved into private practice, seeing people with a variety of struggles and diagnoses, including eating disorders, body image issues, anxiety, and trauma.

[00:06:09] passionate about supervising and training other health professionals, and has provided supervision, consultation, and a variety of workshops for over 10 years. For more information, visit www. FEMA. gov In recent years, she has been increasingly connected to the Association for Contextual Behavioural Science, Big Up for the ACBS, in 2022 became an ACT peer reviewed trainer.

[00:06:33] Congratulations! Chapeau!

[00:06:35] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:06:36] Ross: There's more! There's more, folks! Sarah is also an author. After more than 15 years of researching and working in the field of eating disorders and body image, she wrote the book Break the Binds of Weight Stigma. Free Yourself from Body Image Struggles Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. be one of our core topics for today.

[00:06:55] But we want to find out a bit more about Sarah first. There's also another project Sarah started, which is called the Act Body Project, which I'm sure will come up in our conversation. Now, there's one other piece of research, Sarah. And, there's not as much of an evidence base to go with this, but I'm just going to try it.

[00:07:12] The research department said, You're looking to explore a former interest by returning to a role as a skater coach and referee. in roller derby, where your former name, I'm well informed, was Tazzy Devil.

[00:07:27] Sarah: Correct. Well, sort of the Tassie Devil part is correct. I've been in retirement for a couple of years, but it is, it is a part of me that still exists, so, so you never know what could come out from that.

[00:07:40] Ross: Well, they say that you're lined up to be a master coach for the Canadian Roller Derby Society, but

[00:07:47] Sarah: keep checking the mail. I'll keep checking the mail.

[00:07:50] Ross: But actually, can I confess an ignorance here, Sarah? I'm not really sure what roller derby is. Could you explain it to a novice?[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Sarah: sure, it's, um, sort of, it's a sport, basically, uh, and it was, when people, when I say, originally would say roller derby, depending on who I would speak to, if it was more of an older generation, they'd think back to, like, roller derby used to be big a number of years ago, and sort of, it's sort of a sport in two teams play against each other, and they're on roller skates.

[00:08:23] And they're on roller skates basically beating each other up, so that's, you know, sort of they're trying to help a team mate get through, the pack of players. And so they, they beat each other up. was a sport that, was kicking around a number of years ago and then it kind of laid dormant for a while.

[00:08:38] And then in more recent years, I believe like the early 2000s, it had this kind of resurgence and it's continued to grow and grow and grow and it's kind of, uh, around the world. And so for a number of years I was a skater and then I moved into coaching and refereeing and then I think I stopped around 2015.

[00:08:58] But, it brought out this, uh, there was a funness to it, there was an aggression to it, there was a camaraderie to it, uh, there was so much, like it was a really amazing community and there were people that I met in that community that I probably wouldn't have come across in any other way, but, uh, it was really, really good community to be a part of and I'm still friends with many of the people that I met during those years.

[00:09:22] Derby.

[00:09:25] Ross: feel informed, including my pronunciation. Derby, not

[00:09:30] Sarah: Derby. Yeah. Derby.

[00:09:33] Ross: I did, you know what, I was going to check that with you before we started and I just thought, you don't want to seem like a complete idiot, Ross, but I wish I had now. Because I was saying Darby.

[00:09:43] Sarah: It's interesting, like, uh, in growing up in Australia, like, there's, uh, I follow a West Australian football team, and there's two teams in Perth, and when they play each other, we call it the Western Derby, but in other parts of Australia, or other people refer to when their teams play together, it's a [00:10:00] Derby.

[00:10:00] So, Derby, Derby, like, I'm not sure if it's a contextual, depending where in the world you are, that it gets pronounced differently.

[00:10:08] Ross: Maybe, but we live and learn, Peasoopers. Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. So, Sarah, you've had a bit of an insight about you and how you've ended up where you are, but I wonder if you could give us a bit more flavour of that. Maybe talk to us about your career, some pivotal moments in there, and just bring it to life a bit more for us, if you wouldn't mind.

[00:10:29] Sarah: absolutely. I'll give it a, I'll give it a shot. It's very like a broad kind of question we've got there. And so I guess like sort of your research department has found is I'm originally from Australia and I was quite a shy child, kind of anxious temperament growing up and somewhere along the line I kind of learned to be scared of being seen.

[00:10:52] Okay. And would kind of hide a little bit, uh, uh. And then, you know, as I was approaching like my late teens, early twenties, and I was starting to look at my career and what I wanted from my life, I was having to step out of that, step out of the shadows and step out of hiding. And I remember sort of saying, I want to become a psychologist, and I also want to travel the world.

[00:11:16] And I wanted to, part of that was I wanted to go back to the UK, I'm a first generation Australian, so I wanted to go see, you know, my roots, basically.

[00:11:26] Are you sure

[00:11:26] Sarah: And at that time, there was a number of people in my life who came forward and were like, are you sure you want to do that? You're too quiet, not smart enough, and all of those kinds of messages.

[00:11:39] And even one of the profs at the university was like, if your grades are falling in this range. You might want to reconsider your career because postgraduate studies are really competitive and you might not get through. So receiving those messages kind of lit a fire underneath of me and kind of brought out a more feisty side of me where I was [00:12:00] like, this is important to me, this is what I want to do with my life and I'm willing to step outside my comfort zone, I'm willing to do whatever I need to do.

[00:12:10] to make it happen.

[00:12:11] Am I enough

[00:12:11] Sarah: And I think that was a pivotal point because I could have, and there's probably times in my life where I would have listened to what other people said around me and been like, yeah, you're right. I'm, I'm probably not smart enough. I'm probably not outgoing enough. I'm probably not enough to, to go on that pathway.

[00:12:30] So I'll just pull back. But for some reason at that point, I was like, No, this is, this is what I want, and I'm gonna let go of what you're saying, and I'm gonna kind of ground myself in what I'm wanting, and I'm gonna try and make that happen. So that was kind of an early pivotal point in my career.

[00:12:49] Ross: Blimey, Sarah, aestro pivotal, and that feels, wow, fundamental.

[00:12:55] Sarah: It was like, when looking back, I'm like, I don't know where I would have been had I listened to some of the people around me.

[00:13:02] Ross: And it sounds like it was at an age where perhaps we do tend to listen to those other people in our lives a bit more, but something was driving you.

[00:13:10] Sarah: Something was driving me. I think that, like, deep down, I was a little bit tired of hiding, and I wasn't finding it fulfilling. So it was a, I just, I want to do this. I've got to kind of break free, I guess.

[00:13:22] Ross: Gosh, well I'm so glad you did. I come fresh from the experience of reading your book, which we're going to come on to, but I'm so glad you did, because I think that's, obviously part of the journey. So what, what happened next?

[00:13:34] Sarah: So kind of, I threw myself into my studies and I changed universities a few times actually, and traveled around a bit because, and it was all in search of where can I create the opportunities? What's best, what environment is best for me. So, traveled around, studied, was doing well, got into my postgraduate, despite, uh, what was initially said.

[00:13:57] And it was, you know, later on in [00:14:00] my postgraduate, early into my career, I hit another pivotal point. So I'd say there's kind of three pivotal points in my life, and this was the second one. And it wasn't, happening at once, it was kind of a culmination over a couple of years. So, um, yeah. And so, later in my university career, early into my, working career, I found out my mother had lung cancer, and nine months later she passed away. And many of your PSUpers would probably kind of realise or have experienced themselves that that kind of loss can really turn your world absolutely upside down. And that's exactly what it did for me. Like, I really, really struggled with the pain and watching my mum struggle. And then, you know, with the loss, it was very overwhelming for me.

[00:14:53] And I remember kind of getting swept up in the grief and loss. And it didn't always bring out the better self.

[00:14:59] But looking back now, it's like, like, of course, you poor thing. Like, And, uh, so I was creating a lot of reflection, and interestingly enough, around that time I was actually introduced to ACT, and I was introduced to ACT by my supervisor, and I remember her doing like this physicalization of my, my pain at that point, so she got me to kind of close my eyes and, you know, breathe and, and try and find where I was feeling the grief in my body, Does it have a color? Does it have a texture? And kind of continued on with that, that exercise. And to this day, I remember even though it was many, many years ago, and it was so transformative for me. It didn't make my grief go away. It didn't take the pain away, but it allowed me to hold it in a way that That, I wasn't getting swept up in it. I could still have it, it was still there, understandably so, but I wasn't getting swept [00:16:00] up in it, I could move in the face of it. So that allowed me to kind of move through and work through my grief and continue to carry on with my life even though I was still processing what had happened.

[00:16:12] Ross: Hmm.

[00:16:13] Life is short

[00:16:13] Sarah: And in that kind of processing and reflecting and looking at life and going, okay, life's really, really short.

[00:16:22] What do you want it to be about? I realized that the path I was on at that moment wasn't my path. It wasn't a bad path, it just wasn't my path. It wasn't true to me. And so I was like, I need to make a few changes in my life. And I made a few changes, and part of those changes was I applied for a job in Canada. So I'd been to Canada a few years previously and said if the right job comes up at the right time, I'd consider coming back. So I applied for the job. Okay, why not? But, uh, things don't move quickly. And there was a bit of a delay between me applying for the job and me getting the job. So in that delay, some of the other changes I'd made in my life had kind of come to fruition and I was feeling a little bit more settled.

[00:17:11] The Decision

[00:17:11] Sarah: I wasn't feeling as restless. I need to up and go. I'd created some changes. So now I was left with this big decision of Do I stay in Australia or do I go to Canada? And I did what many people do when faced with such a big decision. They do the whole pros and cons, benefits and costs to all of it. And I kept coming back to that pros and cons.

[00:17:34] And for every reason I had to go, I had another one to stay. And the more I thought about it, I was just coming up with more and more reasons and then at some point I had all the reasons I could, and it was still at a complete stalemate. So I'm like, how, how do I get out of this? Like my thinking, I can't think myself out of it. And even when I touched on my feelings, they weren't really helping either. Cause if [00:18:00] I went, I'd lose the connections I'd made, but I'd have the excitement of going. But if I stayed, I'd have the connections and be like, yes, I get to be with my family and friends, but I'd have that loss of opportunity. So I wasn't making headway in my decision.

[00:18:17] So I'm like, what on earth do I do? This is not a decision that I can do in a half way. Like I can't compromise this. I either stay or I go. So I decided to flip a coin and it was heads I go, tails I stay. It came up heads and that was it. I committed and it's like, that's it. I'm going to Canada. And that was about 16 years ago now.

[00:18:42] Ross: Whoa, would you recommend this as a decision making process? The, the

[00:18:49] Sarah: I used to say sort of like it's a, cause some people be like, Oh, you're so brave for doing that. I'm like, I think I'm being called brave because it did land in my favor. If it had have gone horribly wrong, I probably would have been called stupid. but I think I had done all the thinking. Like I knew deep down whether I'd stayed or I went, I was going to make it work.

[00:19:11] So there wasn't a bad part of it. It was just a, you're going to make it work either way.

[00:19:17] Let's see which path you're on. it worked out for me, but I don't know if it'd be a way of making decisions that I'd recommend.

[00:19:23] Ross: I'm really curious about that. I love the way you're creating, you're taking moments to pause throughout your, your life, and thinking, what do I need to do to create the future I want? That feels very I don't know what word I'm going to use. Intentional, that self reflection to do that inner work and think, where do I want to be is, is quite powerful.

[00:19:45] Sarah: It's very powerful. It usually comes from a place of, I notice a feeling of not being happy. I wouldn't say like depressed, but more of just not feeling happy, something not feeling right. It's not that things in my life are [00:20:00] horribly wrong or horribly bad, but something's not feeling right. I'm feeling disconnected.

[00:20:05] And whenever I get those feelings, there seems to be like, that's kind of like, that's when there's a moment where there's a reflection of what's going on. Why are you feeling this way? Are you disconnected from what's important to you?

[00:20:19] Ross: P Supers, I'm just popping up here to repeat those last important questions from Sarah. She said, that's kind of like, that's when there's a moment where there's a reflection of what's going on. Why are you feeling this way? Are you disconnected from what's important to you?

[00:20:34] And now let's go back to the chat.

[00:20:36] So I guess with that coin toss, I'm still intrigued. If it had come up tails, which meant you stay, could that have been revealing your response to that? Might it have been, Oh, it hasn't come up with the right answer.

[00:20:50] Could that have revealed also your, your, your

[00:20:54] Sarah: Yeah. I've heard people sort of say that as though, you know, if you put a decision on tossing a coin, And your reaction will kind of determine where your heart's desires were. So if I had a, if it had have gone the other way, I may have been like, Oh, not sure about that. Maybe let's do best out of three or something like that.

[00:21:17] Ross: Gosh, so you moved in 2008, it says here.

[00:21:23] Sarah: Yeah. Moved in 2008. Did not, I, I'd been to Canada before, but, uh, it was mainland Canada and Newfoundland is kind of a little island tucked on the end. And I only joined Canada just over 60 years ago. And it's part of Canada, but it has its own unique, culture. It's a lovely, lovely place. but when I was like, okay, I'm moving to Canada, Newfoundland is a very different experience.

[00:21:50] It's, very welcoming. It's a very lovely place. And really interestingly, even though I'd never been there before. [00:22:00] Within the first week I felt at home and I can't put on words of what it was. It was just a feeling that it's like I'm at home and I can see myself being here for a while.

[00:22:11] Ross: Oh, that's giving me goosebumps.

[00:22:13] You're very in tune with your feelings and what's that inner world, I would say.

[00:22:18] Sarah: It seems like there's a little inner compass that can like goes off at times of, oh, you're not heading in the right direction. Oh, no. You are on the right direction right now.

[00:22:28] Ross: And I see that as very courageous too.

[00:22:30] Sarah: Yes.

[00:22:31] Ross: That willingness to, Shift things in your environment, or shift yourself in the environment. To move to a whole new land.

[00:22:38] Sarah: I think there was always a, like I said, a trust that I'd make it work. And in my head I was also like, if it doesn't work, if you go over there and you absolutely hate it, then stay for the time that you have to stay, because it was a contract kind of position, and then you can always come back home, and you'll be coming home with international experience, which is going to look good on your resume.

[00:23:03] So, in my mind it was kind of a no lose. situation. There might have been discomfort, but it wasn't gonna be a big loss.

[00:23:15] Ross: Lovely, lovely, thank you. So, tell us more. Was there another pivotal moment

[00:23:22] Sarah: There was another, there was a third pivotal moment. and so once I arrived here, I was loving my job, was loving all the people that I met. This place is a very, very friendly place and they just kind of welcome you in, which is fantastic. And somewhere along the line, despite all of that, I think over time, different things happening at work, different things happening in my personal life, I got off track again. And that fearing being seen started to creep in again and the hiding crept in again. And so I started to, to not be seen sort [00:24:00] of just, I just felt a bit listless. I felt a bit restless. Again, my life wasn't bad, but something was missing and it was around that time I started to connect with the A-A-C-B-S community a bit more, and it started attending world conferences. And that helped me reconnect with my values again. I could sense that, yeah, I'm disconnected from my values. But that willingness to be seen, that was a really, real sticking point for me, that I was struggling to get past.

[00:24:31] Being seen

[00:24:31] Sarah: And the ACBS community, and Rikki Kelgard, uh, who I believe has been a guest before.

[00:24:38] She's, she's one of the key ones in this. Combined with people in my own life, they helped me overcome and the way they did that was they saw me and not only did they see me, the way they made me feel was just so powerful. So, I'm not sure if you've had the experience where you find like a coffee shop or a food place that's kind of like a hidden gem.

[00:25:01] And you're like the first one to see it, or first one to hear about it. And you, you're so excited and you can't wait to, to share it with everyone else. That's how I felt being around these people. Not only am I seeing, but they're like, Oh, this is a hidden gem. We want to, we want to share her with everyone else.

[00:25:19] It's like, that's such a nice, warm feeling. And in being seen in that way, I started to step outside of my comfort zone, and I started to be more vulnerable around other people. And in doing so, the connections I formed changed. And they were beautiful connections, and the warmth attached to them, and it just helped me break free.

[00:25:42] Hiding versus being seen

[00:25:42] Sarah: And it made me realize that, yes, the hiding and not being seen keeps you protected, but But it's also meaning that you miss out on these kinds of connections, and seeing and meeting all these people. You don't get this when you're hiding. So it [00:26:00] created, it created that openness and willingness of, I'm willing to go through that discomfort of, I'm going to be seen and potentially judged.

[00:26:09] In order to make these connections and meet these kinds of people. Because this, this feels really good and this is worth it. So that was, and from there I kind of changed positions again. I moved into private practice. I started to do a lot more training. I kind of put myself out there a lot more. And part of that putting myself out there was writing the book and I think I feel now I'm probably more authentic and show up as completely myself, uh, including the vulnerability and the more messy sides. And so I show up more like that as opposed to feeling like I have to put on a particular show or put on a mask.

[00:26:49] Ross: Wow, thank you for unpacking that for us. It's super powerful to hear you speak, the, and the contact with the ACBS community. community and feeling, feeling seen in a, in a safe and supportive way. And of course, working with the badass herself, our friend Ricky. Yeah, I can imagine. Well, from personal experience, the impact from Ricky and Crikey.

[00:27:16] So when was this around? How long ago was this?

[00:27:20] Sarah: It would have been, I think the, the, the rumbling started happening, I'd say about 2018. And that was when more of the, I'm not feeling contented and smaller steps happened. And the biggest steps happened, I'd say, it was more the following year and the year after. I need to just be me.

[00:27:41] Ross: Mm. And it's so fascinating to hear you're talking about small steps because some of the steps you've taken from the perspective of an onlooker seem quite blummin enormous. Like moving, moving countries for example.

[00:27:56] Sarah: like, they're, they're definitely the, the biggest steps. I think the [00:28:00] smallest steps was in each and every day interactions, so every day it'd be showing up differently and bringing myself into the everyday interactions more so. And that played out at work. So at work, before it was very much, there was psychologist Sarah, and then there'd be outside Sarah. And outside Sarah was not allowed in and that was kind of consistent with kind of the training that we went through.

[00:28:29] The psychologist is kind of like the blank slate. And you didn't bring as much of yourself into the room, that was kind of frowned upon. And I think there's been a bit of a change in that. But over the years, as I was kind of bringing myself in to those small interactions, that's what I started to do. I brought more of me into the room, even in my work life.

[00:28:53] So the different clo I'd wear different clothing. My hair changed. I don't, you know, usually, I think years ago, my hair would fit. More of the normal colours, currently it is green, uh, I used to, I have tattoos, I used to cover up my tattoos, now if it's warm weather I, I don't cover it up, and it was very much me just bringing my authentic self to work, and just noticing the impact of that, and it felt more liberating for me, and I felt like I could connect with my clients in a authentic way.

[00:29:29] And so there were little things like that each day where I'd be thinking about how can I bring myself into this, this space a little bit more. So there were the big, big changes that would happen, but then there were these little moments of vulnerability and authenticity that I'd experiment with.

[00:29:47] Ross: I love the way you describe it, It's quite counter training. I do coaching and again it's more of a blank slate, but I think that creates barriers between [00:30:00] Me as a coach or you as a, a clinical psychologist and your clients, and we want to level that playing field and say, look, I'm human too, is my view.

[00:30:09] Sarah: That's, and I'd agree. I remember when I was doing drug and alcohol counseling and I was also going through my studies and I had someone say to me like, You can't be dressing the way you're dressing. Like you have to dress more professionally, you have to have more kind of suits and blazers and that sort of stuff, because you're a professional now.

[00:30:29] You're starting to be a doctor. You need to dress accordingly.

[00:30:33] And I remember saying to the person that I work in addictions. I work with youth. If I walk in dressed like that, A, it's not me,

[00:30:44] but B, I'm immediately going to alienate myself from the person that I'm trying to connect with. So I didn't feel comfortable with that level of have to be professional, but there was a certain level that I'd struck for a number of years where it's like, I'm being professional, but it's still more of a masked version of me. And in more recent years, it's, this is who I am. I, I'm colorful. I love colors.

[00:31:09] I have tattoos. You know, I embrace the things that are different in life. I love seeing the variability. And I think that creates so much richness in life. And I like to live my life in that space, and I like to bring that.

[00:31:25] Ross: mm

[00:31:26] Sarah: And that's what I bring into the room a little bit more now, as opposed to being like, I have to play a role.

[00:31:33] Ross: It's tremendously powerful to hear you talk and thank you for articulating it in the way you do, because I think it's a, it's something for us all to reflect on. And it's easier to be ourselves.

[00:31:47] Authenticity

[00:31:47] Sarah: I think that's the other part of it. As much as I, I wouldn't say I'm lazy, but I'd say I'm selective in my energy output. So if there's an option to reduce how much energy [00:32:00] I'm putting on things, especially if it's not giving me much in return, then I'm going to take it. And I found like the more I let go of having to play a role or put a mask and just brought my authentic self, it was, it was easier.

[00:32:17] There was far less thinking. Like I didn't have to be like, okay, how's this person going to respond? What are they going to think? And how do I move accordingly? Okay. It was very much, I'm going to be myself. And whatever comes from that, I'll deal with it.

[00:32:32] Ross: Hmm. Beautiful. So Sarah, thank you for being so open and honest and role modeling for us how we can be in the world in each moment. I love that. And thinking about your role model, it makes me think of you, your courageous self, and that phrase, your willingness to be seen. I'd love to find a bit more about the Act Body project.

[00:32:58] I know a bit about it because I've seen the page on your website, and I know it's a collaboration, but I wonder if you could just tell us a bit more about the project because I think it speaks to your. willingness to be seen, and also your, your courage. So I'd love the PCopers to hear about it.

[00:33:21] Sarah: catching the facial expression as soon as you say it. There was like a, oh yeah, the ACT Body Project definitely embodies kind of being seen and being courageous. So I am someone who tends to be creative. I like things that are a little bit different.

[00:33:38] And as much as I was enjoying playing around with act and body image, my mind was going to, how do I embody this? And how do I kind of create something that captures this in a little bit of a different way? what came to mind was my values. And I connected with my values, and I'm like, what does, what would my values say about body [00:34:00] image? And from that place of my values, the message that came forward was, I am more than my body. I am so much more than my body. And this is what I am, and all my values came forward. Okay, I wanna, I wanna visually capture that. So I got in contact with a local artist. Okay. And I got her to come to my place and do some body art.

[00:34:25] So I had to strip down to just a bikini and I had her kind of paint that message on the front of me of, I am more than my body. And this is, this took a couple of hours to do. So during that time, she is very much. in my personal space. So there was a vulnerability that, that came with that of having someone that close.

[00:34:48] So she painted the message of I am more than my body on the front of me. And then on the back she painted a list of my values. And it's kind of like they're exploding out of me like a little kind of galaxy sort of this is, this is who I am. So on the front it was I am more than my body and on the back it was this is who I am.

[00:35:08] And it's sort of, I'm fierce, I'm feisty, this, I'm funky, this is who I am. And so that was the first part of the, the body, the body act project. So it was combining my values and putting it on my body and making it kind of more of an embodied experience. And from there I contacted a photographer and we went to a local place, uh, nearby and I'm kind of right by the ocean, a rocky beach right by the ocean, and I liked that place because it kind of captured that raw fierceness of what I was feeling.

[00:35:43] And we took photos of it, so there's photos of me with the body art, you know, sitting by the beach. And what made it even more kind of an embodied experience was, this was in November. And November in Newfoundland is not the [00:36:00] warmest time. It is going into winter. So, I drove to the location and I had like a big kind of thick winter jacket and then walked kind of to the beach and then had to shed that winter jacket when it was time for the photo and there were people walking by just seeing this person in November standing on the beach with this kind of, this message of, I am more than my body and this is who I am and it was very much, you know, being vulnerable.

[00:36:29] being seen, even just doing that process of having the artist and then having the photographer and then going into a public place and, and doing it. And then I did the extra step of, okay, let's put this online. So it is on my website and it's also on my social. So this, this image of, this is me.

[00:36:50] Ross: Thank you for just talking to us about the process. It's, it's immensely powerful and moving. You can see it on Sarah's website at drsarahpegram. com. And It really speaks to who you are, how you've evolved as a psychologist and where you've got to. And thank you for role modeling that for all of us.

[00:37:11] Wow. So Sarah, the moment has come.

[00:37:15] Sarah: I've been waiting for it. I

[00:37:19] Ross: A standard peace suit feature is your song choice. This would be a song that announces your arrival into a room for the next few weeks.

[00:37:27] Not forever, but for the next few weeks. And it could be a virtual room, it could be the supermarket, could be the beach in November. Wherever you are, it will announce you as you arrive.

[00:37:37] So, what would that song be, Sarah?

[00:37:40] Sarah: me smile when I hear it because being an Australian in Canada, there's been a couple of times where I've walked into a store or gotten into my car and I heard men at work land down under and it kind of feels like it's my entry music. It's like, haha, but that wouldn't be my entry song. I [00:38:00] think what comes to mind as far as my entry song, um, is a song from The Greatest Showman, This Is Me. And the lyrics of that, it talks about hiding, but then at the chorus it's got this real oomph and standing forward and this is me. So that's, that's what I think I'd choose.

[00:38:27] Ross: Give me goosebumps.

[00:38:29] Sarah: Yep. I think

[00:38:32] Ross: so. So lovely, I love that.

[00:38:36] That's it. Peace supers. The first part of my chat with Sarah in the bag. Thanks so much to Sarah for being an inspirational guest. And please do check out the Act Body Project. Next week I'll be talking again to Sarah about her brilliant book, Breaking the Binds of Weight Stigma.

[00:38:58] Now folks, peacekeepers, we need your help. You could support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So,

[00:39:06]

[00:39:06] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:39:10] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:39:18] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:39:46] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:39:55] Sarah: you picking up [00:40:00] on that in the background?

[00:40:01] Ross: No.

[00:40:02] Sarah: Okay, good. Like, one of my cats is just playing with something.

[00:40:06] So I'm like, if that's coming through

[00:40:09] Ross: I'm I'm not, not, but thank you, thank you so much for

[00:40:12] Sarah: Okay, that's why I was like, hold on, because that, if that's coming through, that's gonna be, I can hear it in my headphones, but it's not coming through. So,