You are listening to the we need to Talk About Ask her podcast.

And this is our conversation with Julia max and Ian MacDonald, the writer, director, and producer of the Surrender, now available to watch on Shutter.

Foreign.

It's so great to have both of you back.

Oh, it's so such a pleasure to be here and see you again.

Yeah, thank you.

This is really fun for us.

Every filmmaker thinks and dreams about what might happen or might wait for their film when the time comes.

But as in many other professions, it's often considered bad luck to talk about expectations publicly.

But now that Shudder has picked up the Surrender, I'm curious, did you allow yourselves to imagine an ideal trajectory for the film at various stages, whether it be during writing, going into production, rapping, when you locked picture, got into south by, played the fest, and so on?

Oh, did you have any expectations along the way?

I mean, for me, it depends on, like, kind of where along the line you were thinking, because, like, at the very beginning, for me, it's just like, I just want to get it made at all.

Like, you know, like, that, to me, feels like the win, you know, and then when we did, I mean, like, honestly, from really early on, like, what's happened more or less was kind of what I hoped for.

I hoped it would play at, you know, you know, a big festival like south by, and that it would be picked up by Shudder, because I think shutters the right home for it.

And that's more or less what happened it.

So I don't know that.

Like, it sounds silly, but.

Yeah, this.

This is kind of the trajectory I imagined for this film and that I hoped for.

Well, I think it's really funny because since we're both filmmakers, I'm always so much more positive about his product, like, projects.

I'm always like, oh, this is going to kill it.

And this.

What's going to happen next?

Who's going to play this festival?

And it's good.

Of course it's going to sell here.

And he's like, I don't know.

And for my project, it's the same way.

I'm like, well, I hope someone likes it.

And he's like, no, it's going to be great.

So it's.

It's really nice being able to have that kind of cheerleader and have one of us supporting the other person's project in that way.

Because I think, as you were saying, as filmmakers, it's really scary to allow yourself to dream big for your own projects because they fall apart so easily.

Yeah.

And even if they don't fall apart.

It's like, you know, the marketplace out there right now is really brutal.

And so we're hearing about more and more films that play at Sundance or South by or Tiff or something like that, and then they just don't sell and they just kind of exist in limbo for years on end.

And so, like, that was a real fear for us, you know, because ultimately you, you, you make this for an audience and, you know, the festival audience is great.

That's one thing.

Um, but, but that's.

They're limited by like, do they live in Austin, you know, or are they in Austin for that week?

And.

Yeah, and.

And, you know, I think filmmakers also have a tendency to imagine the worst as kind of armor.

You know, so the worst happens, you're not absolutely devastated.

It's kind of just like, well, yeah, of course that was going to happen.

And yet at the same time, you also need someone kind of banging the drum for you and saying, like, this is going to be great.

Because that's the thing that gives you the enthusiasm and the motivation to keep creating and to strive to make something special.

Yeah.

And now that you are talking shutter specifically, there is, of course, something important, something unique about finding not just any distribution home, but one that's specifically a genre focused platform that understands a film like this one's audience.

So.

But how important was it exactly for you guys?

And by that, I mean the genre element in your distribution strategy?

I mean, I think it's incredibly important to find the right platform, especially with the genre piece, just because, you know, if you're looking at Netflix or something like that, which is a massive platform, it's so easy to kind of get lost in the shuffle.

And one of the things that we learned really early on when we were kind of doing little test feelings with friends and, and colleagues, was that this film plays far better with horror audiences than it does with people who don't like horror films, because horror fans understand slow burn horror a bit better.

I think a lot of people who've never seen or don't watch horror regularly, we're having a really hard time understanding the slow burn quality of this.

So I'm really grateful that we landed on Shudder with an audience who I think will get this film far more than just a wide audience.

Yeah, no, I, I was just gonna echo that.

It felt in some early test screenings that casual horror fans were more expectant, that, like, there'd be a big scare every 10 minutes, you know, because when they think of horror movies, they think of you know, whatever the big new thing is, you know, in theaters every few weeks.

And that's just not this movie.

It's.

It's quiet, it's meditative, it's, you know, kind of a tone poem in a lot of ways.

And.

Until we get to the end, of course.

Yeah, yeah.

And then to go off the rail.

Yeah, exactly.

But it felt like, um, you know, genre aficionados were, you know, much more not just willing to go along with that ride, but they were excited by the slowness, they were excited by the dramatic beats.

It was actually like a really counterintuitive finding for us.

Um, and.

And that was part of the reason why we were so happy when it landed at Cheddar, because that's the audience they cater to.

By the way, since it was, what, pretty much about two months ago, it screened itself by.

Did you get to.

Or even wanting to execute or apply any tweaks to the film?

That's a good question.

I mean, honestly, this has been such a whirlwind with shuttering, getting this up and ready for our release that there hasn't been any time.

But.

So even if I wanted to, like, we wouldn't have been able to.

But, you know, surprisingly, I've.

I've seen this film, God, like over a hundred times now, and I'm still.

I'm still really pleased with it.

So I think honestly, there is literally one scene which, if I could, I would go back and maybe open it up by like five frames.

That's it.

I was just like, you know what?

If it's that small, I'm gonna let it go.

Yeah.

I hope it doesn't keep you up at night.

No, it doesn't.

But I do think, like, one of the nerve wracking things for me at least is in post production, you get this already to be screened in theaters, you know, with the sound and the color and all of this.

And it's always a little nerve wracking when people watch it at home because I have no control over that and I don't know what their TV is going to be set to.

And so it's a little nerve wracking being like, oh, viewers, I hope you have your TV set to the right things.

Exactly.

Um, even though this is something we've talked about back in March, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the emotional journey of sharing the personal part of the story and how you shared it first with your cast and crew, who helped bring it to life, then with festival audiences, and now gearing up to show it to a wider audience.

Through shudders.

So how has adapting to the, I don't know, opening, widening of the circle of who you are showing the film to be in.

It'S been really incredible.

I mean, this guy is the first person I shared it with.

And I was so grateful for his feedback because my manager at the time was like, you want to do a mother daughter story, people don't want to see that.

And Ian was very much the one who was just like, you know what?

I respect his opinion, but I also completely disagree with that.

And I think this is very interesting and I think audiences would be very interested in seeing the story.

And so I was so grateful that he gave me that first push to have confidence in it, because without that, I probably would not have pursued this.

Because, I mean, really, that, that's, I think, what we are to one another more than anything.

We're, we're both writers, we're both directors, and so we serve as the first audience to, to one another.

Whenever we write, even before writing a screenplay, just writing an outline or spitballing ideas, it's kind of like, you know, and there's, there's.

There's so many things to take into account at the early stages of developing a project, which is like, sometimes someone will kind of spitball an idea and it's just like, you know, yeah, that's a clever idea, but you don't actually sound excited about it.

Or conversely, it can be like, oh, you know, you're not getting the reaction you want from producers or managers or whatever.

But, like, you sound really passionate about it.

So you just need to, like, you know, kind of go for it and write it and see what happens.

Because, you know, like, film is tricky because you're always balancing the creative with commercial.

You know, like, to do a painting, you don't need someone to give you $2 million or $10 million or whatever.

You can just paint it.

But with, you know.

And so there are those considerations.

Yeah.

And so that's, that's kind of a big thing we do for one another.

But, you know, from my perspective, part of what's been interesting about, like, widening the audience is like, you know, it's health by.

We had a lot of people come up to us after the screening and say, like, oh, right now I'm in act one of your movie.

You know, like, I'm dealing with like, a parent who's in hospice care.

And I really saw myself in this film.

And for me, it's been really special because it's just like, you know, you make art to connect with other people, to let everyone know you're not alone in the world and that what they're going through is just a universal human experience.

And.

And for a while now, it's.

It's been a very sort of personal journey, I think, for both of us, but.

But really for Julia in terms of like laying out for experiences on screen.

But now is the time when people get to reach out to us and say like, you know, tell us how it connects with their own experiences, you know, which again, it's.

That's why we make art.

So.

And to be honest, it's been that way at every step of the process, which has been really incredible to see at, you know, when we were looking for producers and crew and cast.

And you see very quickly people who relate to this, they've been through something similar to this.

And those were people that we really wanted on our team because they had an emotional connection to it.

Whereas, you know, sometimes you'd meet people who are like, well, this is a nice starting place, but like, let's make it really focus on the horror.

And you know, those were people that we were like, oh, thank you, but no thanks.

And so it is.

It has been very clear from the beginning that this is not necessarily a film for everyone, but the people who get will really stick with and resonate with.

And that's the most important thing to me.

It's finding those people who really connect with it and hopefully making them feel a little less alone.

Yeah, yeah.

Because these feedbacks are what really matter.

Because reception is such an odd, quite possibly the most unpredictable part of the process.

Like many times you're proud of your work and think that it's an even thing, that it's great, but sometimes for some reason it just doesn't click with the audience, doesn't find its right audience.

It's part of the risk taking.

It's very unpredictable.

You never know how it's going to be received.

And so there is a kind of terrifying but freeing moment when it's finally out there and you're like, it's completely out of my control now.

I can't do anything else.

Just like I just have to let the movie speak for itself and have.

The bringing of this story to life and the aforementioned reception to the surrender, I don't know, changed or shaped the two of you perspective on the kind of stories you want to tell or dare I say, can tell or how you can tell them.

You know, for me it's really funny.

A friend of mine actually pointed this out, Jake Fox, after he came and saw the movie, he was just like, wow, Julia, this movie really clarifies most of your other scripts.

And I was like, it does.

And he said, well, yeah, frequently.

I didn't realize this was a pattern of mine.

I have a tendency to write slow burn horror that are very grounded in reality and then take a really big swing about halfway through.

And it's.

It's a little unusual.

And so a lot of people don't necessarily know how to read that.

And when they see it on the page, they're kind of like, I don't know how this is going to work.

And he was just like, the Surrender is actually the perfect example of how that does work.

And so I'm.

I'm hoping that after seeing it, people will appreciate and get my other scripts more.

Yeah.

And for me, you know, and again, I'm.

I'm.

I'm just a producer on this, but, you know, even as a producer, you kind of live in the world of the movie for, you know, a year, two years, three years, whatever it is.

Yeah, I.

I mean, you know, on one hand, it kind of reinforced why personal movies matter and.

And the joy of helping to tell a story that is intimate and sort of experiential.

You know, and at the same time, I'm also excited to do things that are, you know, Woman of the Hour was very heavy and depressing, and this is a heavy film, too.

And so it's.

You know, I'm.

I'm also excited to do, like, fun films.

Which isn't to say this isn't fun.

It's got, like, you know, monsters and, like, all this, you know, wonderful horror stuff.

But there's no zombies.

Well, not zombies.

There's.

There.

No, no, no.

They're.

No, they're.

There are these sort of lost souls, as we call them.

Although it is funny, I have been.

Saying, like, people have been calling them.

Zombies throughout, like, this whole process.

I've been saying how fun this movie is.

And Ian is like, ear stops already.

Yeah.

Julie would be like, yeah, it's.

It's a fun ride.

And I'm just like.

That is not the word to describe this movie.

Like, it's.

It's like it's.

I guess I have a very warped idea of what fun is.

Yeah, it's.

It's.

It's.

Heaviness is.

Is part of its virtue.

But, like, you know, that is abs.

But it.

You know, it's.

It's.

It's a.

It's A heavy film.

And to the degree that it's light, it, I think towards the film's end, it offers a very real catharsis.

You know, Julia's seen it more than me, but I've probably seen it, you know, 15 times or something like that.

And, you know, and just as a viewer, you know, I find the ending really, you know, without saying anything specific, I find it really beautiful and touching and I get, you know, all choked up every time I watch it.

Yeah, so, so, so the, the lightness kind of comes from.

From that space.

You know, there's a kind of emotional transcendence that happens towards the end, which I'm really enamored by, honestly.

I think the biggest thing that's changed, that this movie has changed for me though, is my mom read the script and approved of it before we made it because I wanted to make sure she was on board with it.

But after seeing the movie, she had this moment where she was just like, oh, the daughter is really just trying her best to make the mom happy.

And I was like, yes, yes, that.

Yes, that is.

That is what I am doing too.

And she was like, oh, I didn't quite get that before.

I was like, I'm so glad you do get that.

So it's been good for our relationship, I think.

Yeah.

And I must add the.

And it's not just producer, it's producer with a capital P.

Because you deserve your flowers as well, especially on a film of this size.

And yet on the level it was made.

Thank you.

Thank you.

He did an incredible job.

I mean, he jumped in in so many ways and just, I mean, all of our producers, I think, did a really wonderful hands on job and were so willing to jump in and fill in any role that needed assistance.

Yeah.

Somebody said towards the end of filming, I'd never heard this before.

They said being a producer on a low budget independent film is really not a whole lot different than being a production assistant.

You just have a better credit.

And, you know, that's true.

It's like, you know, there's was one day when we had, you know, 20 extras come in who were all covered in makeup and, you know, they had to clean off in the bathrooms afterwards.

And the day after that, you know.

It was a mess.

Yeah, the other producers and I were scrubbing bathroom floors.

You know, like that's the kind of stuff that you wind up doing.

And you know, and so there's very glamorous.

Yeah.

You know, but it's like.

Yeah, exactly.

You're working the resources that you have.

And so it's just kind of, you know, all hands on deck.

And again, I feel like this is, again, why.

It's like, why these sorts of films almost like, need to be personal projects.

Because, like, it would be very hard to justify doing all of that, like, for me, at least, if I were just making like a run of the mill slasher movie or something like that.

Like, I need to have that sort of emotional anchor that always reminds me, like, you know, because it's.

It's exhausting.

It's really, really, really hard work.

And you need to feel like that work is in service of something, you know, emotionally important.

And, and, and I always did.

I always felt that way.

Couldn't agree more.

Because then the payoff is even better.

Even bigger, even sweeter.

Yeah.

Guys, thank you so, so much for your time and let's keep this going.

Great.

Thank you so much for chatting with us.

So good seeing you again.