Welcome to the Dudley Unplugged podcast, a show that gets to

the heart of plumbing. Welcome

back to another episode of Dudley Unplugged. Today we're going to be talking about the issues faced

by manufacturers and suppliers in the bathroom industry. I'm your host, Mark

Morris, and we're joined on Dudley Unplugged by Tom Reynolds,

who is the CEO of the Bathroom Manufacturers Association, or

BMA, and Jason Parker, who is not only managing director

of Thomas Dudley, but is also president of the BMA. So

welcome both. I suppose my first question is,

All the time. El Presidente, he insists on it.

So I thought that'd be, that's one of the reasons I'd want the job. I'd want the

car, I'd want the title, I want everyone to stand up when I walked in the room.

All jokes aside, Jason's been an incredibly supportive

president and yeah, probably should refer

So you get a sort of one

assassination per term, do you? So if Tom's

not available for the next one, we all know what's happened. So,

Tom, could you just give us an overview of the BMA,

Yes, certainly. So, BMA has been in existence since

2001. Before that, there was a series of other trade associations that

kind of developed into the BMA. We

are in existence solely, really, to support the interests

of bathroom manufacturers, as the title suggests. So that

can be including advocating policy positions with

discussions with government and other stakeholders happening all of

the time, but also providing material which is

So you have to deal with politicians as well as manufacturers, you

Yeah, we've had engagement with ministers, shadow ministers

over the years, particularly in areas relating to

the environment, so water policy is a big area for the BMA. But

very regular conversations with civil servants as well on

the real intricate detail of policy. Politicians most

interested in the kind of overarching themes

Do you find that the politicians sort of look short termist? due

to the nature of sort of their sort of almost life

span within a government or whereas manufacturers we sort of have to look

more long term in what we do. Do you find that there's kind of a

difference between how sort of politicians look at policy and

I'm not sure if it's long term short term necessarily but

certainly there is a

tendency to focus on the things which are in vogue at any

given time. So at the moment for instance We're

talking a lot with government around water policy

because the water industry and what's happening with sewerage

and so on is very much in the public eye. Barely a day

goes by when there's not something in the newspaper about the

performance of the water industry whether that's the leakage

or sewerage being released. So that's

a topical issue which has got a lot of political attention at

the moment. And that means that we've got to talk to them about it. There

are times when it's perhaps off the boil of public

attention and you can go for a long period

where you're desperately trying to bang on the door to get their attention to talk about

So do you find it easier, I mean Jason's already jumped in, do you find it easier to sort of get

in front of politicians because I imagine they've probably got quite busy workloads?

Yeah I think from a manufacturer's point of view trying to get some time with

the politician and get them to listen to you is really really difficult but if

you're the voice of the industry and you've got sort of 80% of the manufacturers

within the country they're more likely to listen to you

and Tom's got some very good contacts in that area

so I think he leverages those to the benefit of all of its

I suppose you have to work a lot harder in some ways because it's not a A

sad phrase. It's not a sexy project, is it? It's not an industry

that's going to, like, the IT industry can be seen as quite sort of, as something that

people want to jump on the back of, whereas the, you know, toilets flushing cannot

necessarily be seen as being that sort of... Bathrooms can be sexy,

Well, not personally. That's what I'm told. And normally,

Bathrooms is a very sexy industry to be working in, as is proven by

the people around the table. But you're spot

on with regards to political engagement. I remember

a few years ago, we had a business critical issue around backflow protection,

the AUK4 and AUK1, as it was the

regulation that was involved. And, yeah,

getting political attention on something which was so, so important to

our industry was quite tough because you're talking about pretty geeky stuff.

And I suppose for a politician that they, I suppose they

manage their time quite well and they have to sort of look at where they think they can,

so they're always looking at re-election as well aren't they, so I suppose they have to look at things that's going

to benefit and we all know that water conservation is a long term

project, it's something we should be doing all the time, long term, and

I suppose for a politician it might not necessarily be

something that drives them at that particular moment because it is kind of hidden as well, hidden

I've got some sympathy with politicians. They're expected to

be an expert on absolutely everything when in reality, you

know, they're receiving literally thousands of emails every day

on issues ranging from, you know, events in

Palestine to, in our case, backflow protection WCs.

How can you really be an expert on even a fraction of

the policy agenda that you're being asked about? And

it's a bit unrealistic that that is our expectation of

politicians. You know in

an ideal world I'd love it to be the case that

a politician is allowed to become a specialist in say

water policy. In reality unfortunately just

No, and even if we had one government in

power for a long time, they move people around that frequently that they

just can't understand that. The one thing I would say though with politicians,

I think they have sort of woken up recently a bit lately because I

think historically they'd be all about trying to grab the headlines, we're

going to do this. and then it sort of petered away in the background. It

wasn't delivered. But I think certainly now

with water shortages, water pollution,

the government have woke up and it's like, Christ, we need to do something about

I suppose it was in the press recently, as Jason, you mentioned, well, before we

started, about the boat race. They advised not

to throw them in the water in case they got, I think it was E. coli or something, wasn't it? I

I think one of the better things about the

British system of running government is the permanent civil service. And

something really since the last time the water regs were looked

at in 2001 that has

been missing is permanent expertise around water

policy in DEFRA. That I think has been

addressed. There is now a team dedicated to this area of

policy. and they're really getting their teeth stuck into it. So the

plan for water came out last year, they're now working through some of

the specific detail on what that means in practice for

product manufacturers, for the water industry and for other stakeholders. Hopefully

those same civil servants will be in place if there's

I suppose it's an adaptation from a manufacturer's point of view. Because

politicians change, priorities change, policies change. So

from previous to, I think it was 2001, where only siphons were

allowed to be used in the UK, now flush vials were brought in because

we were more part of Europe. That created problems now

that we're, as a manufacturer, we're now trying to fix. But it

wasn't a problem that was initiated by a manufacturer, it was a problem that's

created by a policy change. So

I suppose from a manufacturer's and an association's point of

view, keeping up with the changes that come down from above

to us that we have to deal with, I suppose is quite sort

of prominent in how we actually go about doing our work. So

from a manufacturer's point of view and an association point of

view, how do we find that we sort of keep up with the changes that sort

Well, I think I'd ask Jason to respond to this one, because is

that really why you're in an association like the BMA, to help

I think we can keep track with the changes. I think what

we would predominantly like is a say in

those changes as they're made. And certainly when

we went into Europe and the changes happened in

2001, we really didn't have any say of that. We were following Europe

and that's where we're going. We've obviously now come out of Europe

and we're at this point, what do we do? Do we stick with Europe or do

we plow our own furrow? If

we're going to plow our own furrow, we want a

hand in the direction that we take. I think it's up

to the industry to provide DEFRA, who are ultimately

the policy makers, on what would be best for the industry. Certainly,

and if I take the siphon, if

we want to put a device in that doesn't leak, put a siphon in. Not

all manufacturers are going to be able to do that, and not

all users want that. So okay, where's

the compromise? And I think that's what we're trying to work through at the

moment with the meetings we're having with Death Threat,

Leaky Loose, etc. How can we find some middle ground that

keeps the industry still growing? and

enables the industry to move with that change. Certainly Tom

talked about the air gap and various

issues we'd had with RAS there. At one point

they were talking about changing overnight. You can't change a business overnight.

You need a transitional period. And we're talking about millions of pounds

worth of investments. So ultimately we need two to

four years probably to get ourselves in the right shape to

There's all sorts of reasons why you'd need that transition time. There's retooling

at a very basic level, but also the way our sector works, there's

various different steps in the supply chain, and each one of those steps is

holding stock, so it's going to take a while to cleanse stock

One of the things the association wants to do is grow the industry. And

if we're going to have quite a fundamental change, we

can then look at where governments support the change,

but also incentivize people to make the change. So instead

of your toilet that maybe wastes water or

uses nine liters, keeping it for another five years, you're

incentivized, like what they did with boilers and that, to change it

Yeah, because with every change, as well as it being a challenge, there's

unquestionably opportunities for manufacturers in those changes.

And our job as an association is to try and maximise

Yeah, I suppose it's education for the general public. They sort of

ran those communications of don't leave the tap running when you're brushing

your teeth. I think some people are aware of how to

spot a leaky toilet. Most people probably don't even realise. Research

suggests that over 4 million baths of drinking water every

single day is lost due to leaking toilets. Now that's a

huge amount of water that they can't

really afford to lose at the moment. but it's simply going down

the pan because people don't recognize that the toilet's literally

down the pan. Some people just don't even notice that the

toilet's leaking to start with and then think, oh I'll get that fixed and a couple of days goes past

and then there's a bit more leaking. We were speaking to a couple of

our ambassador plumbers and they're saying that they go to a house to do a job

and then they say, oh why are you here? Could you have a look at the toilet? I think it's leaking. And they say,

yeah, it's been leaking for weeks and they just sort of got around to doing it. Does

the BMA sort of get involved with trying to sort of looking at ways to

educate the general public on how sort of policy changes

Oh, we certainly try and educate the public. So a few years ago we ran

a campaign called Get Lavi Savvi, which was about just the issue that

you identified. But I think there is really, really low

levels of awareness about water scarcity in the UK. And

that's no surprise. I mean, we're filming this

in April. I think it's rained pretty much constantly for six months, hasn't it? So

it's no wonder that the public is you

know, unaware of the levels of water scarcity in certain

parts of the country and, you know, to be fair, a little sceptical about some

of the claims about how severe things are as well. So yeah,

If you look at some of the standards though, pre-2001, ultimately you

had a siphon in there. If the siphon diaphragm failed, your toilet wouldn't flush.

You were forced to get it fixed. If the inlet valve

was leaking, which meant you had an overflow, generally, you'd

have a stream of water coming over a door or a window. You'd see

it every day. Oh, I need to get it fixed. Now you don't have

those mechanisms and with

the water going down the pan in some cases it's not that visible. I know

the BMA have worked with other people where you can buy a

device that will show that. But then people say, well, I

wonder what the cost of that water is. It's a few quid. How much is

it going to cost to get a plumber out? And they just leave

it. And we certainly were in one meeting where there was

a member of a water authority said, I know I've got a

problem, but it's just not worth the cost benefit to fix

I think he was actually a plumber, wasn't he? He was a

plumber that contracted for for a

water company. And he said,

I just kind of did the weighing up exercise in my head and thought, I'm

I remember reading when the change happened in

2001 where the outlet valves were allowed in

for the first time. I think the government were aware that there was a problem with them leaking.

but they assumed that people would get them fixed within a period

of time which would cause minimal leaks and the reality has been

found that that didn't happen. The reality was it leaked for quite a while

afterwards so I think that's sort of unintended consequences

of a policy change which The government haven't really

fixed, in my opinion, it's been left for the manufacturers to try and come up with a solution. Companies

like Thomas Dudley, because people like having buttons, let's face it, buttons

are a lot nicer in a lot of areas, they're more aesthetically pleasing

than a handle. And I think Thomas

Dudley is coming up with ways to how do we fix it, how do we turn a siphon, which

is a leak-free device, and activate it with a button. And

I think it's coming up with some new innovative products that actually fit that. The new quantum

product is an amazing piece of technology that actually sort of fits that sort

of every requirement you could possibly have. But from a manufacturer's

association, just getting that message across to

the politicians that Again, don't do anything that's

going to cause any major problems. Think about what we're doing. It's probably a very tough task,

Yeah, and just to kind of take it away from toilets

for a second, we're facing the prospect of unintended consequences coming

down the track in other areas of water efficiency policy. There

is a very strong lobby to try and limit the flow rate on

showers for instance. But we've seen some pretty compelling evidence coming

out of third party organisations like the University of Surrey which

suggests that actually once you go below a certain level

it just extends people's time in the shower because they're

trying to achieve a certain level. experience or sensation

from the shower, which just results in a higher

total water use from that showering event. So again,

there could be unintended consequences if we say, cap

flow rates at six litres per minute. So we've got to

think through policy in a bit more of a holistic way and

really look at what we're trying to achieve as a sector and we

want to try and help the government to have that more rounded view and

And it depends what you're using it for. I mean, I use a shower to get clean, so

generally I get up in the morning, I'm in there and I'm out within sort of

four minutes. My partner, she's probably

in there about 25 minutes, you know, she's listening to some

tunes or something in there and she's treating it like a

relaxation experience. It's very, very different. You're

But if that shower's delivering a

benefit, It might not be the benefit of getting clean, but a

And I think the more maybe people try and force change, the more people tend to resist changes

as it goes as well, which they have to be careful. There's a line, I would thought, to

walk down to make sure they get it right. And like I

say, sometimes you stand in the shower. You can be in and out in a couple of minutes, as Jay said, four

minutes in and out. But sometimes it's nice to stand in the shower, especially, you

know, when it's the hot water hitting your head, it's nice to stand there for a few extra

I was fine, but... Yeah, but... I'm really

interested in this kind of behavioural human factor stuff and ergonomics.

And one of the things I really like about the Quantum product is that you've

kind of taken human behaviour into account in designing that product. And

there are, you know, there are, in the interest of being impartial, as

a chief executive of BMA, there's other kind of products coming to the fore

across toilet flushing, across showering, which do

take into account human behavior and put it central to

the product design. I think that's real, you know, a huge step forward.

I think that's important, the whole industry moves. Because if you've only got one

player that moves, you're unlikely to get legislation to

force that type of product to be used because they're

not likely to give it to a monopoly. So we do need the whole

industry to move. But I was at another meeting where we were talking about

water usage in toilets. And there

was an argument, well, we just need to drive towards low water toilets. No,

we need both. Because yes, we can have a 4 litre toilet, but

if it leaks, it still leaks the same as a 6 litre or

Absolutely, yes. So we definitely, we need to no leak and

And even more fundamental question, why are we still flushing toilets

with potable water? Surely grey water and dual

piping in properties is going to help in

I mean, we're building a new factory, or

an add-on to our factory. And when you start looking, that

technology is not readily available. And

I've spoken to a couple of architects, we'd like to do this, and it's like, I

haven't done that yet. I haven't done that. So, yeah,

I'm not sure it's out there or widely commercially available

because I think, and people don't realize that when the rain hits your roof,

especially if you're a company owner, you've got to pay to have that water taken away.

So if you could, I think the better way of doing it is storing it in tanks, which you

can then use to float, would save a lot of benefit for businesses and

water usage as well, because we've got to be thinking

smarter, I think, as companies, as industries, as governments,

we've all got to be looking down the line 10, 20 years and thinking, okay, what's

the best thing to do now? We've got to try and get it right this time. because

although they get a lot of things right, got a lot of things wrong, and

sometimes short-term thinking can lead to sort of quick decisions that aren't necessarily the

right decisions. So I mean, as an association and manufacturers,

Innovation and water savings, I suppose, is that a key driver now

for key messaging and from a manufacturer's point of view in new product development?

There's a number of macro trends, I think, that a

manufacturer sort of tries to keep its finger on the pulse with.

And certainly, water is

going to become more and more scarce as a resource. If

we look, we're definitely having a change in weather patterns. So

we've either got too much water or too little. So

how do we harvest that water is going to be a factor. And

then the population of the whole world is growing. and

there's not more water, so we've got to use it more sparingly.

So those are key considerations in our product roadmap

And kind of moving it beyond water

as well. So there's some changes coming in regulation,

particularly in the European Union and I expect the UK to follow. around

circularity of product and something called digital product passports, which

will really follow a product through its whole

life cycle. And that's going to drive a move towards repairability

in the bathroom sector, as it already exists in the

appliances sector. Also the circularity of

materials, the ability to reuse materials, extend

their life. So, you know, these are all changes coming

Yeah. I mean, I suppose looking at innovation, the trends in

bathrooms probably changed quite a lot over the years. I remember being,

you know, I'm from an age where sort of gaudy colours were once

sort of all the trend and ironically they've become sort of

back into fashion again now. but I suppose you've probably seen quite

a lot of changes from a bathroom manufacturer's association of

how they look. I mean, I remember my mom used to have a doll with a

lacy, doily dress on, used to sit on top of the toilet roll in the bathroom. So,

you know, it's kind of a little thing. I don't think so. I think my nan,

I think I had one at some point, but I think it's those little chintzy things. I saw something

on the news, on the internet, where sort of like the fluffy

covers for the toilet seats, someone had one and they were bringing it back out. But

I know, a terrible thought, It's one of

those things that, you know, as fashion's come around, you've sort of seen that in how

sort of, maybe not necessarily from Thomas

Dudley's point of view, but maybe from the ceramics point of view,

where they are bringing it back into sort of more sort of off-the-shelf color

Before, because you talked earlier about bathrooms being sexy. I

mean, your bathroom was a very functional place. It was somewhere where you

used, nobody else would use it. I think the

world's moved on massively. I mean, people spent... Lots

of money on the kitchen, that was their showpiece of their house. Well,

yeah, the kitchen still is the showpiece, but now the bathroom is also,

and definitely I know people, they're quite proud of their bathroom and

when they've had it refurbished, they want to show you and it's like, look at my digital

shower, look at my low water toilet, you know, look at

this, you know, my bath, my jacuzzi bath, etc. They

Yeah absolutely I agree with that and you know

we do regular trend analysis from particularly from the trade shows

to see kind of what's going on from a kind of whole sector

perspective and I think colors were in

sanitary wear at least that's actually perhaps a bit of a

flash in the pan from the last couple of years. But certainly more interesting things

around furniture. So furniture has grown to be the second biggest product

category within the bathroom from a pretty much standing start

when you think of the old three piece suites. So yeah

that's a really interesting trend. But for me the most

exciting trend is around the ratios of bathrooms

to bedrooms. So we've seen quite a bit of research around

what's called a golden ratio in terms of your property value, where

one bathroom to one bedroom is the golden ratio.

You're going to achieve kind of maximum return on

your property if you make investment in that area. So that

for me is perhaps not reached the

middle market yet. It's very much a kind of high end

market trend. But I think

you're going to see that expand in the years to come. That's quite exciting for bathroom

Yeah, I mean I was speaking to somebody this day and there's

a new program that was on BBC iPlayer and it was about Birmingham in the

70s and one of the opening scenes is they're sitting in the outside toilet

and I'm like, did you have an outside toilet? No, no, no. And

they lived in quite a lot. They lived in a nine bedroom house, this person,

and they had one toilet inside. Imagine that today. I

Well, even really small new-build homes most

And definitely I've seen some two bedrooms that have got two en-suites. They don't

have a sort of a standard bathroom. They've just got two en-suites back

So I suppose it's meeting demands from customers, I suppose. People like their own

space in those areas. I suppose

people still perceive maybe an ensuite as a luxury. So

when they're looking to buy houses, it's like it's a luxury, but it's moving from being

a luxury to a must-have. It's almost like a standard commonplace

Yeah, if you look how we've progressed though, we've become a lot more private, haven't we?

I mean, when I went to school, you all had to share the same

in a big communal shower. The swimming baths, they were sort of

large, group changing areas. If you ask people

to do that these days, they won't do that. And certainly people

I wonder whether it's a bit of a pandemic hangover actually that,

you know, we all kind of were forced to live in

for 24 hours a day in our homes and pretty much the only

place you could get any privacy and peace was your bathroom. And

perhaps that's just That's continuing and

I suppose with COVID, I suppose when it hit, I suppose it changed a lot

all at once. Did you see many sort of impacts on how the

Well, we were really fortunate in that we moved away

from things like an office-based server about three months

You timed it perfectly. It was like you had a vision, this

It was incredibly prescient. That

was more by luck than judgment, but it did mean that we were able to kind of

pick up our computers and work from day one.

A couple of members of staff went on to the furlough scheme

but the business continued and the association continued

to provide advocacy for its members. straight

away. I think we came into our own a

little bit in terms of the insight and

the sense of community that we were able to generate within the sector.

There are some things like the managing directors meeting, which

happens on a quarterly basis that we set up in the pandemic that's

continued. The credit circle has continued to

this day. And, you know, I think it

Yeah and I think the fact that a number of

the habits that were forced on us because of COVID we've

maintained and as Tom mentioned the MDs meeting trying

to get you know the MDs from the main players within the industry

to all come together for a meeting in one place it's

probably not the best use of your time because some of us are going to have to drive

three hours there and three hours back whereas now we do it all online

and it works really well and the level of participation is

I suppose the pandemic forced that kind of change through whereas we probably

would have gone along kicking and screaming to that particular changes and it's

like going almost cashless almost. Before

COVID, I couldn't see anyone ever giving up cash. Now, I

never carry cash around with me anymore. And that's a surprise to

me, because I was one of the people who thought, no, never going to give up cash now. If someone

ever asks me for it, I know I haven't got any money. I forget what it looks like now.

But I suppose it has positives and negatives, I suppose, of the impact. Did

you find that politicians sort of were, during the

time of COVID and just after, were they trying to be more helpful

I mean certainly engagement is, for

a time it got a bit easier actually because just as we switched

to online meetings, so did they. So there was

the ability to get more

of those one-to-one meetings with politicians and civil

servants. as things have kind

of unwound and that the world's opened up and they're now back

to the kind of regular meeting schedule that is presented a

few more challenges actually to trade associations in getting that engagement.

We're up to about 60 full members which are

manufacturers plus there's 25 or so affiliates who

are organizations that support manufacturers

Can I say, because I saw you guys at the installer show, when you

had... George Clark did a

nice speech on his stand, which I thought was very good, and he got a very big crowd, everyone likes George Clark.

Do you find engaging with plumbers' events like

Installer shows become a really important part of our calendar, and

we did some research a few years ago around

the purchasing cycle and what

goes on in consumers' minds. when they're

going through that purchasing cycle and right out in front came

the influence of the installer. So they are an absolutely critical

stakeholder for all bathroom manufacturers and for

us in the association reaching them with key messages. And

Installer shows the place to be if you want to engage with those people. So yeah,

It was a fun event last time. I think Tom and the team deserve

a lot of credit for that because it was the first time really we'd done an event on

that scale. and to be

in the centre of the exhibition and the

voice of that industry. It just all seemed to sort of come together and

work really well and Tom did quite well as a host as well, asking

the questions. But no, I thought it was, yeah, it really lifted

the BMI and made people, some

people who, yeah, Think of it as, yeah, they are the

It was a bit like a town square, really, for manufacturers,

wasn't it? It was the place to come together and have

the kind of cross-industry discussions, as you were having the kind

If you looked at what previously we had, it was like a small booth or something with

a little stand-up desk, and that was it. You could probably get about three people

They definitely look busy all the time, every time I walk past. Which is

really good, I suppose. Influencing the installers, I

suppose, is very important. I remember when I had my bathroom done a couple of

years ago, I took on whatever the plumber told me, really. He

said, well, she should do this, she should do that. Oh, we can fit that in, we can do that. It

was all Dudley, wasn't it? Yeah, 100% Dudley products inside

I don't think my floor in my bathroom would

take away from a Rezan toilet, I don't think. But yeah,

so I took on board what he said, you know, in terms of what bath- I mean, it

was a very clever idea because I've got a very small bathroom, but

he recommended a bath that was very thin. on

the edges so they actually got more into the we could hold

more water in the same space so it became like it felt like it was

a bigger bath whereas if I'd gone one that had the wider sides then

I would have got a lot less in and being a bit tall yeah it

benefited me no end so I was quite impressed with the advice that the installer gave me

but I wouldn't have thought of that because I didn't know that existed the same and

this is my embarrassment now before I came to work at Thomas Dudley I didn't know

The difference between a button and a handle, and a flush handle, I

had no idea what that meant. For anyone who

doesn't know, which was me, a button, it'll have a valve, it'll

have a handle, it'll have a siphon. That's

I think I chose a couple of elements, which was

a bit more to do with the tiling than anything else. You

put the money aside for this, I was keeping it for a motorbike until

That's really reassuring actually, that your experience of

the installer helping with the design was such a positive one.

The research we got is that where design has been left to an

installer, the levels of dissatisfaction among

consumers at the end of the project is so much higher. So that's

one of the reasons this year's Installer Show, we're going to run

a couple of sessions aimed at installers on how you can

achieve better design outcomes for your customers.

Yeah, some of the research we've done though, I mean there are a group of plumbers that

take it to the next level. that it isn't just about

plumbing your bathroom, it's about giving you the best, and they've got a wealth

of knowledge that you could probably go and get if you wanted to spend every

Saturday afternoon traipsing around bathroom showrooms, but I guess you

Explaining where do you want to put the button, flush the toilet, where do you want it? It

was my link to the world at that point because he sorted the tiler out, he

recommended we get the floor, how we were going to do that, and the recommendation on

taps. So it was without the installer, I would have struggled to

have done that. So yeah, anything that I think the BMA does with installers,

I think it should be a real benefit to everybody. So,

I mean, Jason, just a quick question for yourself. As well as

sort of being El Presidente of the BMA, obviously

you're the MD of Thomas Dudley, which has a conglomerate

of different businesses that go attached with it. That's got to be quite a

Well, I think first of all, I've sort of grown up in that,

knowing that, so it's no different to me. A

lot of good practices can be carried across all

the different kinds of businesses. It's

certainly a challenge to try and get all the businesses performing

really well at the same time. Generally it's one's up

and one's down and three are okay. But

I think strategically that's the right thing to do because what we have done

across the group we've de-risked our business and even in

some turbulent times we still generally do

Because Thomas Dudley owns a couple of foundries as well, which probably shouldn't

surprise people because that's how Thomas Dudley started, but probably would surprise

people that Thomas Dudley still operates a couple of foundries, which I

think is probably a rarity nowadays in the UK. So

that's got to be exciting, challenging, difficult,

It's a rollercoaster running a foundry. I think one year you have a good year and

then the next year you have a terrible year. We started with

a foundry in 1920 so that's really in our blood and

I can't ever see that changing. The foundry industry has

reduced massively but with lots of

changes around the world I think now foundries, the

foundry base in the UK generally most foundries can be quite

prosperous as a place for them. We've got a

very full order book And we're winning more and

more business as time goes on. I think the difficulty

comes with a foundry is finding the technical skills. We're

going further and further afield to recruit those skills. We've

also invested in a foundry training college with Wolverhampton University

and the local LEP. And we're just hoping more and more

people want to come and work in the foundry. It's

No. And I suppose you'd say it's almost like a

calling. In fact, you know, a lot of people will be family related. They do

their dad's work through, but I imagine foundry's hard

Yeah, I mean, we take regular surveys from our

people and they generally enjoy working in a foundry. I think once

they've started working in a foundry and they tend

to have a sense of belonging and they just stay within the foundry. You know, we've got

one family where father, mother and

son have done over a hundred years between them. But

yeah, the Foundry's moved on a lot from

when I sort of started in the industry and if I think at

one point we had seven plants and there was about 40 people running those

plants and now we've got, you know, three plants

and there's probably about 12 people running them and they're

more productive than those seven plants. That

hasn't meant that we've lost those people, we've just put them

I suppose with what's going on in the world at the moment with Ukraine and the Middle East

and the Horn of Africa problems and the sort

of getting supply in, I suppose it focuses the

mind on and we had a conversation with the Made in

Britain team about looking for companies that manufacture here as

well because that's be a benefit in terms not only for the environment because

of your reduced carbon footprints but also for improvement of supply chain.

Yeah, and I think COVID and what's happening in the Red Sea

at the moment is really good for UK manufacturing. I'm

not sure where it's all going to pan out. It was interesting that COVID, there

was certainly a real focus and

passion quickly to buy from the UK. And

we spent quite a bit of time with a number of quite

high profile customers who, yeah, we're going to source locally,

we're not going to buy from abroad. I think 50% of

them probably went back to China when that became

viable again and the routes opened. The other 50%, probably

half, stayed buying in the UK and the other

half have dual source, which I think is probably the best solution

for everybody really. I think the Red Sea is

creating some issues now. Who knows where that's

going to end, but certainly for some of the components that we buy,

you know, you're talking 18 weeks now to get those, so it's,

from a business point of view, it's going to mean there's a lot of cash and

a lot of space tied up in stock, and I'm not sure all businesses can

I think obviously we've got quite an interesting position in the

BMA because we've got the full range of different value chains within

membership from kind of UK manufacturers like Thomas Dudley through

to European, Far Eastern and

rest of the world manufacturers as well. So we kind

of see things from all angles. I

think something which is obvious,

and I gave a presentation recently to the BMF on this, is

that we're going through a period after 20, 30 years

of globalisation, harmonisation and regulations and

so on, we're going through a period now where there

is quite a lot of turmoil and geopolitical risk.

Not just in the Horn of Africa or the South

China Sea, all over the world there's kind

of different elements of political risk and a tendency to

move away from globalization towards more protectionist policies.

And we see it's in this with Trump and Biden's policies in

the States and the Inflation Reduction Act and so on. So it's not kind

of isolated to one area of the world. I think what that's

leading to is manufacturers of all stripes looking to spread their

risk a little bit. And that doesn't mean on-shoring back

to the UK or even near-shoring, but about diversification

of your supply chain and looking at different markets and just spreading

your risk really. But yeah, I think we're certainly living

Yeah. And as a manufacturer, I mean, we've always had the desire

to become self-sufficient. If we look, we buy very,

very few items in. We like to try and make everything. And

I think that will only grow in time because our passion really is about manufacturing.

Do you find your workforce have a particular pride because they

are producing something which is tangible and that goes out the door and

Yeah and I mean it's only a small thing but when we at

Christmas time we have Santa's grotto and

we invite all our employees with their kids and you know Santa's

there. Jason dresses up as an elf. I dress up as an elf. Thanks

for that Mark. But

we make some cast iron keys in the foundry, and

they become like a collectible item. We

powder coat them in a different colour every year, and it's like, I've got every

I've got one from the years that I've been there. I've been in Thomson four years, and I've got one

for each of the years I was there. which we put down and every year bring home,

And it's bizarre, it's the simplest little things. I mean, Cronex, one

of our export companies, they do a pen

sort of holder really, it's a pen pot, and it's got a calendar on

and everything. And when I went to the Caribbean to visit some customers, literally

every single year they're on the bookshelf like a trophy, just

all standing there, you think, that's a bit bizarre. but

really valued, and if they're missing one, that was normally the

first question, anything I can help you with, can you get me one

Fill the gap, yeah. So Jason, I understand that you're going to be doing a

100 mile cycle ride for charity, that's 100 miles in a day by

the way, again which is about 70 miles more than

I've managed, so how did that come about, how did you get involved with

As a company we try to do lots of events for various

charities and we try to pick charities that

are local to us. We definitely have a theme at Christmas where all

the directors are presented with a cheque and they nominate a local charity and

hand that out. This one is a

charity in Wolverhampton. It goes from Wolverhampton to Abu Dhabi. If

anyone's been to Abu Dhabi, you find most

the businessmen from Wolverhampton there on a weekend. Wolverhampton

on sea, they call it. And we did it

about three years. I think we did it three or four years ago as

a company, but there was only really a

couple of us who did it that time. We've got a greater team

doing it this time, and it's a bit of

fun, but it is an endurance event. So yes,

you do need to do training. I've tried to coax some people in to do it,

and they've said not a chance. I

definitely am in training, but I like doing triathlons, so

generally I do training. for that, so 100 miles shouldn't be

I mean, I like cycling. I do a lot of mountain biking off

road and through mud and stuff, which I really enjoy, but I

don't know if I could do 100 miles all in one go. I don't

think I could manage that. So what's the charity you do the unit

It's the Wolverhampton Police we do it for. They're the people who

Cool, excellent. Tom, just one, a couple of

final questions for yourself, being a bit more light-hearted, really, outside of,

we talk about the Mediterranean, sorry, the Middle East and problems there, so just

a quick light-hearted one. As CEO,

you can both answer this question, actually, from representatives of the Bathroom Manufacturers Association.

So if bathrooms could talk, what do you think they'd say about their human

That's a crazy question, isn't it? Well, you know, bathrooms can talk. So

you get smart mirrors now that tell you what age

you look. Toilets that tell you what you've been eating, things

like that, how to improve your diet. So there's some pretty

I mean, Japan has a lot of those kind of products that

are quite far advanced in terms of toilets. Do you ever see any of that really

You see it at the trade shows. I'm not sure how popular they are actually

Yeah, I mean, some high-end hotels only have those type

of toilets, which always creates some confusion when you want

to go and use them. Yeah, what would

Yeah. Get out of the shower

and save some water. Stop flushing me. Just

a final one. So as an association, again for

both of you, if you had to choose a product to be the association's mascot, what

would you choose? To me, it'd have to be

I don't know, it's like choosing between my children. There are

different product categories in BMA's membership. I

suppose we spend most of our time, or the largest amount

of our time, on toilets. At the moment, obviously that

might change with changing policy priorities, but

yeah. No, that's a hard question, I can't answer it. Oh,

Obviously, my bias would be towards a Dudley Siphon, but

I think a Thomas Crapper toilet. That's where it

all started. Thomas Crapper are

So I think we're just about out of time, actually, gents. So I'd just

like to thank our guests, Tom Reynolds from the BMA and Jason

Parker, also from the BMA, but also from Thomas Dudley as well. So

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