[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss projection.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

[00:00:22] Nina Endrst: And good podcast

[00:00:24] Anna Toonk: blessings.

Good afternoon friend.

[00:00:31] Nina Endrst: Yeah. How are you? I'm good. I know how you are. I still feel a little disoriented when the darkness comes, you know, that I'm like, oh, it's the sun sunsetting. And it's like, yeah, cause you live in the Northeast and it's four. O'clock welcome to winter at time. But that.

[00:00:50] Anna Toonk: Very good news for me, because I'm just ready to pack it in for the day.

[00:00:54] Nina Endrst: It's made me start going to bed earlier, which I mean, I also think come so mad about the new variant that I'm mad at. I'm bored. And so I'm going to bed earlier. I'll show them, but I've like, yeah, I'll show you. Like I can't do stuff. Or, you know, like, I'm going to go to bed at 10, you know, which is not like.

And I know, I know I'm waking up earlier. I've seen seven 30 a few times, which I don't see very often. Oh, that's good. Yeah. It's weird to wake up when it's dark, but it's been kind of nice. I don't know. I've started waking up and lighting candles and waking up the apartment. This could be me slipping into madness.

It could be me doing some pioneer cosplay who knows. Let's see where it goes.

[00:01:47] Anna Toonk: Oh, my God,

[00:01:48] Nina Endrst: that is a terrifying image. Imagine magic. We were like, why aren't you working with more? And you're like, oh God, she got real into pioneer. Cause she couldn't buck us anymore. They're not invented

[00:02:02] Anna Toonk: yet. That really bad cooking show like pioneer woman or something.

I'm talking about that. Oh my God. She's like cooks like butter. She's like have, let's have some bread butter. Oh. So, what are we talking about today?

[00:02:14] Nina Endrst: Projection, dun dun dun dun dun. It's funny because I feel like so often, I don't know. I learn a lot doing this podcast and I feel like so often when we're trading off or coming up with, you know, topics or whatever, It's because it's something we're experiencing, you know, or like it's going on.

And I learned when looking up our definition and like just researching a little bit and getting clear on what my own thoughts were about projection, that I was like, oh, I was mad about, I don't think what's projected. In retrospect, I'm like, oh, that's good. You know? Cause I was like, how can I, cause I, I knew that there was a story I wanted to tell and then I was like, oh, but can I tell that?

And I do think the other person involved maybe listens to the pot, you know? And I was like, do I care about that? And then I was like, oh. Surprised who is not some clickable, not relevant, not relevant. I will seem it for a future episode. I'll talk shit at another time. So for jection. An estimate or forecast of a future situation or trend based on a study of present ones plans based on projections of slow, but positive growth, the presentation of an image on a surface, especially a movie screen quality illustrations for overhead production.

Okay. Well, I saw that and was like, well, that's none of what we're talking about. Maybe not. I mean, I guess we could say an estimate or a forecast of a future situation anyway. So I was like, that's not really what we're talking about. What am I looking for? And I realized it was psychological projection.

Projection is the process of displacing one's feelings onto a different person, animal or object. The term is most commonly used to describe defensive projection, attributing one own unacceptable urges to another. For example, if someone continues with. Bullies and ridicules appear about his insecurities.

The bully might be projecting his own struggle with self-esteem onto the other person. So also when I was researching something that kept coming up one. That projection is a, is a defense mechanism. And so, and I had a feeling the concept, and this is all from psychology today. The concept emerged from Sigmund Freud's work on defensive mechanisms and was further refined by his daughter, Anna Freud, and other prominent figures in psychotic.

Unconscious discomfort can lead people to attribute unacceptable feelings or impulses to someone out to avoid confronting them. Projection allows the difficult trait to be addressed without the individual fully recognizing it in themselves.

[00:05:17] Anna Toonk: Yeah. That's what we're talking.

[00:05:19] Nina Endrst: Yeah, it's funny. I, cause I was like thinking on it and was like, I think a lot of what I thought was projection is maybe just assuming.

You know, it was amazing. Maybe it's possibly just assumptions when people fill in a story or, you know, say I get this a lot. I wonder if you get this in friendships, like where people almost like fill in the blank with me, or like, I bet Anna's going to blah or whatever. And I thought that was a form of projection, but I think it's just assumption, you know, like I, I actually.

I think, I didn't realize there was this component really of protection of seeing something you don't like about yourself, or, you know, something that kept coming up a lot in a lot of the examples too, was like cheating that people who are cheating assume everybody else's and accused mine about cheating.

And I guess like you don't like when you know something, but you just don't get it or it's just like also not the way you experience it. I realized though, so my mom goes to a union analyst and, you know, for and young, uh, kind of go hand-in-hand and she's very into lately when I'll be like, You know, you think it's like real cool when your friends sets boundaries yet.

When I do like your culture about it, and she's like, it's just me projecting my shadow and I've been like, cool, can you not? You know? And I was like, I don't really get that. You know, like, what does that mean? And I'm like, oh, she's like projecting her own discomfort and fears around setting boundaries onto me, you know?

Like, ah, so I'm curious, like. What's been your relationship with PR? I feel like I went through this whole journey of realizing what I thought was projected was not like what's been your relationship, but with projection, have you been on a journey with it?

[00:07:23] Anna Toonk: Oh yeah. I'm still on a journey with it. We're good.

We're going on vacation next week? No. So I'm reading something right now that says, here are some signs that you might be projecting, feeling highly reactive, quick to blame. Difficulty being objective, getting perspective and standing in the other person's shoes, which I think are interesting little tidbits.

So my journey, I was thinking about this last night, it wasn't in my vocabulary until, you know, later in, in my twenties, mid twenties, probably I wasn't familiar with it when I was younger, but I, I do realize that a lot of. The I was doing a lot, but also I was taught to me at a very young age. I think. So how I experienced it was if I said something that was uncomfortable for one of my parents, my dad would often be like, well, and my mom too, really both of them would immediately turn it and project it back on to me.

So they would be like, Very defensive or sensitive and be like, this is what you're doing. It's like, no, you're doing it. Like I'm not doing it. So that was my experience of it. That if you called something out and someone didn't like it, that it was a, you know, behavior or comment said that they couldn't really sit with or see that it was immediately like, no, that's you, which I didn't know what that was, but that's me.

[00:09:07] Nina Endrst: A huge part of

[00:09:08] Anna Toonk: projection.

[00:09:18] Nina Endrst: yeah, because it's like with, with what you're saying. Let's say, you're saying to your parents, like, I don't feel like you've listened to me and they're like, well, you don't use your listening ears, you know? And it's like, rather than look at and go, huh, what's that about? You know, it's using projection as a form of deflection, you know, to.

Kind of be like, I feel like that's a really common thing, like where people's like initial response, if someone gives them feedback or just shares how they feel or whatever's to be basically a form of like, I know you are about what am I, you know? And it's like, I don't, I mean, I guess it depends on. What your relationship with fear criticism?

Like all that stuff is I was reading the new Yorker interview with Alison Roman, which I'm not going to get into whether or not she's bad or whatever the piece is interesting, but they made a good point that she got really desensitized to taking on feedback because of being such an internet person.

She was so used to people just trashing. You know that she didn't no longer knew how to hear it. So good, bad, valid, whatever. And I thought about that and how much in our effort to. How often, like bad habits start from us trying to make some world feel simpler or, and more navigable, you know, that it's like, oh, getting feedback can be painful.

Sometimes let me like protect myself. And then it, it becomes something else. You know, that it's like, if we don't build up our resistance or our ability to like sit in these things, like you're just kind of inviting another person.

[00:11:12] Anna Toonk: And when you were talking about the someone cheating, that example, that, that happens to me a lot with one of my ex-boyfriends, who he was 1000% cheating on me all the time.

He lived in

[00:11:25] Nina Endrst: the city, 1000%, all the

[00:11:27] Anna Toonk: time, a hundred percent of the time he was cheating on me. And he was the most jealous person I've ever met. And he would go into these rages, like rages. He was very unstable and. I was so young that I didn't understand what was happening because I knew he was cheating on me, but I felt crazy because I wasn't cheating on him until I was.

[00:11:57] Nina Endrst: I think that's super common though. Like,

[00:11:59] Anna Toonk: I mean, with self fulfilling prophecy,

[00:12:02] Nina Endrst: that's the thing. If you're getting, like, if you're going to get punished, like, I mean, if you're going to do the time you want us to do the crime, like if you're going to get, if you can't listen to reason, you might as well, you know, like.

I mean,

[00:12:12] Anna Toonk: I don't, you know, condone it. I wasn't my favorite thing for myself, but we had a really toxic relationship, obviously. So, but he would do that to me constantly. And we lived in. I was still in college in Boston. He lived in the city in New York. And so he was, you know, working and living his life. And I was in college for God's sake and he, and he would do that to me all the time.

And I had no idea that was projecting. I had no idea that that's what was happening, but that's exactly what was happening. He was feeling so much guilt and so much because I do believe that he, in his own way, as much as he possibly could possibly love somebody, he had love for me. Wasn't capable of much, but he just like, couldn't stop his chaos from happening.

So instead of being like, Hmm, why am I cheating on this person that I supposedly love, blah, blah, blah. And I was jus not jealous. I mean, I became jealous because I started to realize, but it's just so fascinating what we can do. So that's part of the journey for me. And then the other thing is with friends, I know that this is probably showed up for.

As well, where I feel like that's where I really learned about it or, and more, and with clients too, but more with friends and, you know, With clients. I feel like I learned about it in a way that was what they didn't want to know about themselves. They kind of projected like a bad trait onto me in order to excuse themselves from doing work

[00:13:49] Nina Endrst: interest in rare circuit.

Can you elaborate? Can you give us, can you give us an example? I find that fascinating. Yeah. So,

[00:13:59] Anna Toonk: yeah, it's only happened a couple of times, but it's really, it's when it's happened. It's been very intense. So I've had a couple clients that I've been one in particular where she was projecting a lot of, like at first she was putting me in like her mommy role.

And that was really weird. And I had to put, you know, stop that immediately navigate that. But when it became. Really kind of weird and ugly was when she started to go. This was pre height of the pandemic. I noticed she was saying really odd things to me and I realized that she was going down the Q Anon route.

Uh, And I was like, what are you saying? Like, these are not words that I understand. And I don't, I'm not going to talk to you about the stuff. And this was before anyone really knew about it. And instead of, so I would, Seoul had just come out and I had written an email and it was like, we don't stand for whitewash spirituality here, just, you know, an FYI of what soul was about.

And she was like, that email was so aggressive and you are. You know, so narrow what, however, she was speaking to me. I can't remember the exact words, but basically she is projecting this image onto me or this behavior onto me. That was all her own, but it was so multifaceted. It was like partially, she was convinced that I was narrow-minded or I was the bad guy.

Right. Because she was being brainwashed. So if I believed in social justice, she like, I was bad. All like her internal battle of like her being this white woman who is very much choosing this way of thinking and beliefs being. And she was just on the precipice of taking another route. I feel like, and as soon as she saw the possibilities or the, how it could go or how it could unfold and then Q started, she was like, no, I was bad.

So everything became. You're aggressive or you don't, you don't understand, or your, you know, she would cry. It was just very bizarre. So I felt like there were many things. She was projecting on me, but one of them was just a. Whatever her behaviors were that she wasn't comfortable with. She attributed to me.

Right?

[00:16:30] Nina Endrst: Like, yeah. Yeah. Or sometimes I, I feel like with projection, like I agree. I agree with you. I think that was projection from my web MD psychology degree,

[00:16:41] Anna Toonk: but yeah, I think we're, we've graduated from web md.com.

[00:16:45] Nina Endrst: So, but I, I think you are correct, but I also think like sometimes. You know, I'll really take something.

To heart or, and I'll be like, hold up, you know, like in that situation, like yeah, you are being narrow-minded you have zero space for a rhetoric that like is racist or what it's like. Yeah. I'm zero tolerance about that, you know? And I have to stop myself and realize, like being zero tolerance, like zero tolerance about certain things doesn't mean I'm intolerant, but it's a real.

Tool of manipulation to weaponize, you know, words like obviously that's what cults do. That's what they use. So I think that that's what can be like, I think sometimes when people were projecting, like I heard it as truth and wouldn't always go wait a minute. Like, How does this serve this person, whether it's the light kind of, you know, they're telling on themselves, like, if they're so obsessed with me cheating, like, is it cause they're cheating, you know, like, is there a message I'm missing in this?

Like if people are so, you know, upset, there's something about me that makes people, I find. I want to project almost like their fears and insecurities of like, I bet you're thinking this, or you must think this, or, and it happens in friendships. It happens with clients of like, you're gonna think this is dah, dah, dah, dah, or this you're going to see that all the time.

And you're going to hate, you're going to hate this.

[00:18:28] Anna Toonk: Yeah. You're

[00:18:30] Nina Endrst: going to hate this. Yeah. You're going to hate this or. I bet I know at Ana or I bet Ana or stuff like that, something I found interesting. I didn't expect you in the definition. Was that first piece of an estimate or forecast of a future situation or trend based on a study present ones is, is taro.

I mean, that's literally taro. Hm. I think I learned a lot about projection with taro of like, when you kind of, I thought projection a bit more in terms of, I think creating a false narrative, you know, of like going. Oh, I fucked up. Nita's going to be so mad. I bet she's going to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And when I have zero proof of that, you know, versus just going, I fucked up, then I'm scared.

You know, like I thought that was a bit more projection, you know, but I guess now having learned that projection in that example would be me being like, I know I would be, you know, so mad. So I'm assuming you're going to be that way or whatever. But, um, I learned a lot in terms of like with taro, you know, for those of y'all not familiar with it are not professional readers.

You know, we're often looking at patterns and extrapolating based on the pattern we're seeing and kind of going okay, if you want your career to move, or if you want this to happen, I've seen. And this, like, you might want to look at that, you know, like we're using these things as tools to like kind of build a roadmap or I am that's, I shouldn't say we like that's my practice, but, um, you know, I think that.

Helped me. And I think also too, I, I subscribed channeling. I think when I'm doing any kind of second work, I open up channel. I think of like receiving knowledge from, you know, a higher source and I'm serving as a conduit for it. And I learned a lot about. Don't pretend, you know, like don't interpret don't I literally like relay it and I'll say like, this is what's coming through, or, you know what?

This card means this, but however, I'm getting this vibe for you or whatever. I had to figure out how to sort of like organize things. So I wasn't doing these readings with tons of projection and projection prediction in bias. You know, like of trying to like sort all that stuff out, but I've become really sensitive to it with other people.

And you know, when people will be like, especially like a client will come and be like, you know, I have a crush on this guy at work. I want to know if they're interested and I'm like, no, I'm not going to psychic spy. What's up, you know, what are you looking for? Like, what do you want? And they'll be like, well, I have a crush on this guy, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to hook up because we worked together and he went through a breakup.

It's like, none of that's real like, or, or maybe it is, but you've made it all. You know, that's

[00:21:31] Anna Toonk: a projection of

[00:21:32] Nina Endrst: insecurities. Yeah. Rather than just going in, being like, what, uh, you know, you want this, I want to do it. I wanna do it. I mean, I have to say though, if like a pretty, I mean, pre pandemic now, I feel like everything who knows what's up, but like a pretty like effective, you know, pickup line or like, Wine with dudes is want to make out, like they're so caught off guard.

They're often like, yeah. Okay. I'll make out, you know, like, so just like put that in your back pocket, you know, like they're like now you're like, I mean, like we could like find a corner, but like yeah. Dating advice, dating advice. Um, you don't want any of it. I mean, if you want like bad dating advice, come to me.

I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I. I think because like, and I think sometimes my friends find things that I'm being like judgemental or like a hard ass. Cause I'll be like that as a story. You're making that up. I mean, I think I would hope I say it nicer than that, to be honest. But I think it's because of reading for people, like what we do for a living I've gotten like so trained to try to figure out what's the information versus what's the story.

Like, and I don't care why someone's doing it. I'm not judging it. Like if you're doing it out of insecurity, I don't care. I'm not deducting a point. I'm just trying to figure out before I'm going to pull cards or whatever. Like, what are we really dealing with is how is the way I'm describing or that's where I'm coming at it.

[00:23:02] Anna Toonk: Are you seeking interconnection and thoughtful instruction with grounded humans, but don't know where to

[00:23:06] Nina Endrst: start. We get it. It's a cluttered world making it even harder to find the right tools.

[00:23:12] Anna Toonk: That's why we created the soul unity, a digital community with movement meditation and spiritual wellness classes for everyone.

It's

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[00:23:22] Anna Toonk: soul listeners of this podcast can get two weeks free by going to the membership page of the soul, unity.com and selecting the how to be human option in the dropdown menu.

[00:23:32] Nina Endrst: Sign up today for full access to our robust library of content.

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[00:23:42] Anna Toonk: Totally. Which I think people don't necessarily always believe. Yeah. Because they're trained not to. Right. And one of the things I find interesting about projection is the. Line here that says the attitude that your beliefs are held by others or that those you're with in relationship with should think and act like you do.

So I feel like there's, that can go. And yeah, that's definitely what happened for me in the situation I was just referring to. But also with what you're saying, I feel like taro has helped me so much to become first of all, less judgmental,

[00:24:23] Nina Endrst: big time. Yeah.

[00:24:24] Anna Toonk: And. Going back to another part of the definition to really see from a different perspective without inserting ourselves into their lives.

Right? Yeah. Being them, just seeing, oh wow. Like this. So I feel like with that kind of scope of you're like, I understand this kind of life and that kind of life and this kind of situation, that kind of situation, it makes it at least easier for me to know when. I might be starting to project something onto somebody else or a situation the same, because I'm like, Hmm.

Yeah, no, this is just your, but it's training that takes a lot of time and effort and hours in my life anyway, to. I've gotten to a point where I'm not scared of somebody's reaction about something. We talked about this on one of our episodes where I just got to a point in my life, you know, a couple of years ago, where if somebody is like, I have to talk to you, I'm not like, oh my God, what's wrong.

Let's talk right now. Or are you afraid? Like calling them, you know, like, are you okay? Am I okay? Are we okay? For me, it was such a projection of fear. Like they're going to be mad, they're upset. I did something wrong that feels like it really has subsided with maturity, but also with all this work and especially being, you know, in readings all the time and, and just listening to people, but also relaying messages in a way that's not dry, but.

This is the message. You know, it's not about the story, even though it is part of this bigger story, it's just let's deal with, you know, in the, like a bit of a cleaner way in a clearer way. It's a very swords

[00:26:08] Nina Endrst: energy. Yeah. I think because I don't know about you, but. I guess, I mean, I guess like reading Terros like, I don't mean this is going to sound really self-congratulatory and pretentious.

Yeah. But I'm like, I think reading for people is a form of like loving kindness meditation in the sense of the compassion. You have to give others, you, you have to give yourself. I don't know about you, but like I found, I also released so much shame. So it made me much more like, who cares, why you did it, or who cares, why you're attracted to like, let's figure it out.

Like, what do you want, how do you feel? Like, I don't care if you're attracted to that person. Cause of like this wound or whatever, like, do you want them, you know, like it made me get much more. Practical about stuff that I don't think is practical, you know, because releasing that shame, I think kept me, I think of Seamus.

Yeah, I call it like collapsing, like you collapse in, you know? And like, it's like, whoa. And it just makes you so contracted and like afraid of people, you know? And I feel like projection is this, like, you know, it, it is very, it's very outward. You don't generally like inwardly project, you know, you outwardly project and it's this way we're trying to like, kind of keep up appearances or something that the more I was kind of.

You know what you read for several thousand people at this point and you realize life's complicated and no one has it figured out. Like, I feel a real sense of freedom in some ways that I think also helps reign some of that stuff in that I'm like, we're all fucked up. We're all flawed. Like if you're eating.

You know, anyone even listening to this, like, well done, like you're trying to be better, you know, like if you're taking any care to like pay attention to what interests you or whatever that it's like, cut yourself a little bit of slack, you know? And like my cutting myself that slack like helped me sort of be aware of.

Oh, I was like, totally making that about myself or I was so hung up on my feelings or like, oh, you don't like, I could just see stuff more clearly.

[00:28:30] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Let's talk about, what do you think about boundaries and projection?

[00:28:36] Nina Endrst: Well, I think boundaries. I think for projection to really, like, I think they probably have an interesting relationship because it's like you're being so boundaried internally that you're having no boundaries outwardly, like I know a couple, I would say a couple of people I know that are big projectors, but people who I have to really kind of keep in the back of my mind that they project.

And I don't know how aware of it they are. I would say that they also struggle the most with boundaries, which right. I don't know what that relationship is, but I would say that anecdotally for me, that's my story. I think that a lot of people who project a lot don't know that like, essentially they're just sort of flooding the airspace, but their opinion.

And I mean, like, what is, I think boundaries are also like, Uh, category in some ways, you know? So I think whenever we're saying something, it's like, you have to ask yourself, like, what category does this fit into? Like, are we chatting? Am I giving advice or dah, you know, like you run it through that stuff.

And I find these are people who've like, never thought of that. Or like she did block. Can you believe that? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, that's a rule you made up. I mean, I can think of any. My mom was a projector and she was talking about a friend of hers and was like who's, uh, in her eighties and asked her was like, where do you get your string bikinis?

And, and my mom's side. And my mom's like, can you believe that? Like, who wants to see CR. But isn't a string bikini. And I was like, listen, if you want to put your body in one, I want to look at it. Like if you've got con the confidence at 80 to be in a string bikini, by all means like wear a thong, like do it.

You know? And my mom was like, all of a sudden, I said, that's not a rule. I get it. Like I get, you've decided it's one, but it's not actually one, you know, like there is no rule, you know? No. And that's a

[00:30:40] Anna Toonk: perfect example of. I was getting out, which is little, little catch phrases that we can put in place. When you feel like someone is projecting on you, I don't take, you know, that's not mine.

I do that sometimes where I'm like, that's not, it's actually not mine. You know, I do it in silently. I do it.

[00:30:59] Nina Endrst: I go that doesn't belong to me or that

[00:31:02] Anna Toonk: doesn't belong to me. That's your opinion. Or, you know, I disagree or whatever, but that even just putting, I think what happens sometimes when people project, or at least this was my experience and I see it happening a lot with clients and friends is when someone projects on.

Once twice, many times we sometimes start to internalize that and believe it. And so a great way to keep ourselves kind of clear and strong is to send it back in the moment as much as possible. So we don't let it in. Right. Yeah. I like to think about the body a lot, you know, so that really helps me. To decipher when I see it coming now from a mile away when someone's like, you're going to be mattered, you're doing this.

Or, and it's very clearly something that either they're doing or. Projecting onto me. I'm like, no, that's actually not what I think when that's not what I'm doing. And I don't let it in where before I'd be like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. You feel that way.

[00:32:05] Nina Endrst: This is how, you know, Nina is the more mature of us.

Cause I'm just, I'm cracking up. Cause I'm thinking of like, I'm like, this is also mature in great. I like to troll and be like, God, you know, when someone's like, you're going to be so mad, be like, let's see how fun for us both, you know? Cause what do you want me to do versus being like, uh, no.

What is someone wants you to do it? That

But do you find, I'm curious because I think you're immediacy. Dealing is very interesting, you know, like, thank you, ask me about it. It takes me sometimes a second to go wait a minute. Like, I didn't like that or that didn't feel good. You know, like it's been one of my lessons as an adult learning. I'm slower to process than I think, you know, so when it happens in the moment and you're like, I'm going to say something like.

How often do you say something out loud? Like how often are you saying it to the person versus how often are you doing it internally? And which one feels better?

[00:33:23] Anna Toonk: I love to say it out loud because part of growth is knowing when things need to be said. And when they don't. Because I'm constantly like, oh, I'm going to tell this person, that person I'm going to go back.

Because like a couple of weeks ago this person said something and I'm realizing now

[00:33:43] Nina Endrst: you're like, keep your list. You're like, is going to get it today, bitch,

[00:33:47] Anna Toonk: we're going to have it out on the table. Right. But then I'm like, that's not necessary. You don't need to do that. So I, to your point do process. Very quickly.

And I think the reason is because I'm so in touch with my body, that I can feel it coming and then I can feel it happening in my body and it doesn't feel good. It makes me. That client is a very good example. I started to notice that I was going to let her go because obviously she was going, she was joining a call and it wasn't going to work, but I would notice that it's our last couple calls.

Like I would feel so sick right before I got on the phone with her like ill and

[00:34:33] Nina Endrst: never good

[00:34:33] Anna Toonk: time. Never good sign. And I, because I knew that everything that was about to happen was in. You know, family. And so there's only so much I can say to her because she was very far gone. Right. But it's a friend, or if it's a family member or a stranger on the street, you know, I'm pretty strong.

And clear, you know, as soon as possible, because I feel like it immediately puts the boundary up and then I can walk away and not think about it. If I don't say something, I stew on that motherfucker for like days. And I hate that. Yeah, I will stew and stew and stew and be like, I should've said an idea and I wanted to say, and that still, and it has the same effect and that's my practice to have to be.

Well, you didn't so you can still process it without talking to the other person. Sometimes that's the only option, but I do think it's important in the moment to be like, yeah, that's actually not mine.

[00:35:35] Nina Endrst: I agree. Like, I think what has felt hard for me when I've felt sort of, I feel it about. People when they're projecting some pens, like, it feels a bit like a fog and I feel a little disoriented in it or something like if I feel a bit enveloped and I feel a bit disoriented seeing yeah.

What I like about what you're saying about being more immediate about it and being kind of like, even if it, whether it's to yourself or to them, you know, it stops that, you know, if you kind of go hold up, I don't know. I think this, and I think like, if you can, you know, and like, Hey, y'all, I'll do this with you.

Maybe we can become more vigilant about calling out projection as it happens. I find it exhausting to sort of like. Penetrate peoples. I'm so sorry to all of us that I used the word penetrate.

regretted it.

I regretted it. I don't even know who am I? Not what I wanted to say. I could add, we could edit it out, but we're not going to, oh, let's not, let's not. I fine. Arguing with people probing that's somehow better, which is weird. The word strobe gross. Probies okay. Um, I'm more into it, but I find. If you asked me, like what my definition of, how is it would probably be, be trying to get someone to understand that they're wrong about reality.

Like when someone is projecting, like it's so obvious in some ways that like, of what's happening, like you feel. That like, I feel like things almost become surreal. They're so hyper real in a way when you're like, hold up, you know, like, especially when it's kind of a little bit of that Gaslight flavor, you're like, I

[00:37:35] Anna Toonk: we're just like floating.

I'm just picturing us floating. Like, you know, it's true. They're never going to say. Rarely if ever, are they going to be like, you know what? You're right. I'm

[00:37:46] Nina Endrst: projecting. Yeah. And this is something like, I've been thinking about a lot of how my quest is always to like, be in reality. And I'm like, what does that mean?

Like, why am I so focused on it? And have I missed that? When I say reality? We can never agree on what reality is, because I'm talking about my own, you know, I'm like, so do I have to drop this and all this, but at least you're right. Like the point of saying something in the moment, like, as we start to wrap up and like, you know, we all learn something here today.

I mean, I suffered Nina. She was being the teacher, but, um, no that I learned, I shouldn't project I'm learning.

You know that if the point is not to argue about what's reality or whether or not someone's projecting, like the point is to set the boundary that like, you're not available to absorb that, you know? And I like that what you're saying of whether it's like you say it to yourself where you say, like, that's not mine to like someone else, you know, that's what you're doing.

You're you're like that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my joke about myself is I'm always like, well, withheld the PowerPoint presentation. Like I always am like, oh no, no, no, no. If like, if they say like, you need two examples, like I'm like, you need six, you know, like I struggle with validation, pretend one could say, or self validation really that it's like, oh yeah, really?

I just want it to stop. So if I would, if I would just put up the boundary of like, this doesn't feel like it's mine, like it stops done mission. Yeah.

[00:39:23] Anna Toonk: I mean, that's how I feel, because it, then it just, you don't have to lug it around and think about it or feel it, or make it something I don't like to just be dismissive of, you know, anything.

But I feel like I really like the way you process things, because I think that it's very thorough. Yeah, it is. I'm like bitch checks her boxes. Like she's like, yup. Got it from all angles. Trauma, baby. Yeah. And I am much more of a, I literally like opened the door and I sweep it out and then I'm slammed the door and I'm like, okay, I'm done now.

And I do have to pick up some stuff. Later that were left behind, but in the moment when things are swirling and I agree with you, my version of hell, but also be when you're sitting with somebody and they're like, no, this, and you're like, no, you don't hear me. That's not, that's a waste of time and energy, right?

The goal is not for, for someone on the other side to stop them, to even stop their behavior. It's the goal is for you to not be. On the receiving end of it anymore. Yeah.

[00:40:42] Nina Endrst: Yeah. That's been a newer thing for me to think about some of the, these themes, like in just like my own stuff in life to go, doesn't really matter why it's happening, you know, or like, What the deal is like, my job is, if someone's telling me the sky is green and I'm like, that's blue and I took color theory, like I know it's blue, you know, like I'm not, um, besides the fact that it's like, I already feel ridiculous having to say poster where I'm like, listen, not only did I go to kindergarten, but I also did color theory and I'm telling ya, that's clue kindergarten.

I don't want to brag complete it the kindergarten, but you're right. Like the point isn't like, it's not my job to really get that person, to see the error of their ways and to understand what color the sky is, you know, like what I really want for myself as to not be in the conversation

[00:41:37] Anna Toonk: to go back to.

The colors, the primaries, like

[00:41:42] Nina Endrst: to my friends who agree that the sky is blue and we can all then get into like, what is the Rulien? No, I'm kidding. But yeah, I've had to think about that, of like, wait, you know, like my God shout out to my therapist. She had a really great way of like, when I would be like, I'm going to do this, or I want to do that, or I need to have this conversation with so-and-so or whatever.

And she started going, what's the goal? What's the goal. And she would say, what's the goal and what's the fantasy. And both of those have really helped me in life to go. What's the goal. What's the fantasy.

[00:42:17] Anna Toonk: Love that. All right. Let's end on the word fantasy fantasy. Well, we hope you enjoyed our journey. Yes.

I feel like I learned a lot too. It's one of those things that we don't. Sit down and talk about right. That's why we started the. We throw the word projection around all the time, but how often do we sit down and actually talk about what it is? Oh

[00:42:41] Nina Endrst: my God. I've learned so many times that I was wrong. It's not a really fun journey, learning that I'm wrong.

[00:42:51] Anna Toonk: See you next time where we'll be wrong again, or try to.

[00:43:01] Nina Endrst: That's all for today's

[00:43:02] Anna Toonk: episode.

[00:43:03] Nina Endrst: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/

[00:43:07] Anna Toonk: howtobehuman. If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the soul unity listeners. Get two weeks free by going to our way. And visiting our podcast

[00:43:17] Nina Endrst: page.

Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.