1, 2, 3.

Welcome to the Rap Report with your host, Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity and the Christian podcast community.

For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeeternity.org welcome to another edition of the Rap Report.

I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport, the executive director of Striving Fraternity and the Christian podcast community of which this podcast is a proud member.

I have something a little bit different for you folks today.

What we're going to be doing is I'm playing an episode that just dropped on the Dead Man Walking podcast Greg had me on.

He wanted to discuss pastors ethics, social media.

This is in light of the issue with Josh Bice.

Now you're going to hear some things as my audience you have never heard me speak about.

You're going to hear things that, well, you didn't know about, things that had been going on behind the scenes for years.

Because it's not my way of dealing with things to blast other people.

My goal is to help to educate people in my audience, educate those to live more like Christ.

And part of that's also having to be an example even when it's hard.

Yep, that's right folks.

Sometimes it's really hard to walk the Christian life and we have to be able to take things that come against us.

And so there's going to be a little bit here that's more personal that Greg made it that way.

I told Greg that, hey, I, I'm okay with talking about these things in general.

I don't want to talk about the specifics.

He kind of ended up making it where was no way to avoid some of the specifics.

But so it's something where I am putting this out there so that people can see basically how do we deal with the whole issue when someone like a Josh Bice falls and we think he failed us.

And so there's things like that we could deal with.

But I mean there's a lot more to my story that's not obviously in this podcast, but I did think it was, it was would be helpful for you and my audience to hear some of what happened.

But more so just that you could see how do we deal with these things because a lot of people are addressing this fact.

It's in there out there.

I have strong opinions with, with some of these things that I'm still keeping private.

And the fact is, is I think that this might be helpful for you, if any of this catches you, my audience, off guard that you didn't know some of this was happening.

I'll just say you can feel free to reach out to me.

I've never hidden away from the things.

The reason some people like Reg and others know is because people would hear things, they would come to me.

And I I don't may not go public with things I don't do.

But if asked, I don't shy away from explaining things that happened to me or things that go on.

But I do want to try to protect people.

Even if even if I think they're wronging me, I want to protect their reputation where I can.

So I hope this is helpful for you.

And what you're going to hear now is from the Dead Man Walking Podcast, a podcast I follow, and I encourage you to do the same.

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Discussing the Josh Bice situation and how Christians and especially pastors should handle social media.

Stick around exploring theology, doctrine and all of the fascinating subjects in between.

Broadcasting from an undisclosed location, Dead Men Walking starts now.

Well hello.

Hello everyone.

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So welcome back to another episode.

Yeah, we had some breaking news on Monday.

If you're listening to this, we release every Wednesday.

If you're listening to the date comes out it's been about two days now since the Josh Bice controversy with G3, where it was found out that he had many anonymous A9 accounts, as they call it, and was really slandering other brothers in the Lord and other ministries anonymously online for the past three years.

And the G Conference, which I did attend the national conference in 2021, has been canceled and wanted to talk about that.

And I brought on Andrew Rapaport to talk about that because when Andrew and I first met years ago, I think that in about a year into our relationship, so this has been about two years ago, we were talking and he privately told me some things that were going on and he was being slandered by Josh and some other people and he had some anon accounts that were attacking him.

Now at that time, I don't think he knew that they were Josh's, but basically just told his story and said, you know, I pray for him.

And I'm struggling because, you know, I'm being blackballed from.

Blacklisted, excuse me, from certain speaking events and, you know, functions and kind of was outside of the circle.

And it was really kind of eye opening to me.

I'd only been podcasting for a few years and didn't really realize that, you know, a lot of these ministries kind of compete against each other.

I know it's wrong to say, but I find a lot of similarities between politics and like Christian ministries, which is a horrible thing to say, but it's just the truth.

In politics, you kind of have people backbiting and being hypocritical and kind of fighting infighting against each other within party and then outside a party, fighting with each other and kind of building these little camps and tribes and going, well, this voting block is, you know, going to vote this way for this thing in return.

And you go, well, if I'm in, you know, the Christian community and if I'm in the Bride of Christ here, there shouldn't be any of that.

Right?

And for the most part there isn't.

But you definitely, I say in the broader, you know, Church of Christ, there, there isn't.

But you can definitely get into things where it's like, him, vers him.

And I'm in this group and you're in that group.

And yeah, we all might be believers, but we don't like that guy because he's going to take away from the stardom of this guy and we can't have him speak here or him do this thing here.

And it's really crazy how I kind of see some similarities there.

And then when I heard this a few years ago, I went, well, that's just wrong.

Like we, you should come out against that Andrew and say publicly.

And he goes, who, who's, who's going to listen?

First of all, it's a private matter.

I don't feel like I should go on social media and talk about it.

And he just had a lot of respect for Josh and those guys, some of the guys surrounding this situation, and was very humble about it.

And financially it hurt him.

And you know, spiritually and emotionally, you know, just as a person, it does not feel good when someone's accusing you or lying about you or blacklisting you or saying things, you know, gossiping about you.

And lo and behold, two and a half years, three years later, Andrew is kind of vindicated.

We now see that Josh was very controlling and, and, you know, posting, slandering Christians, posting things anonymously, which I can talk about this openly.

I, I have much sin in my life and I, I confess it.

And I asked the Lord to help me be sanctified every single day.

One of my sins is not having anonymous accounts and talking about people behind their back and, or, you know, anonymously online.

I will tell you exactly how I feel right to your face.

And I touched on that in this episode too, with Andrew too, and I said, even that can sometimes, you know, be a point of pride, though, because I once told my wife, going to post this because I'd say it to their face.

And she goes, well, then you're just being a jerk to their face and online.

So, like, that's not an excuse either.

But with that being said, I can look at this and go, okay, I've never struggled with that.

I've never thought I needed to sneak around, make anonymous accounts, you know, mess with people, slander them, all those things.

Anytime I've said anything about anyone, it's public.

You know, it's coming from me or my podcast brand, which is the only, I'm the only one who posts from it.

And I, I have no problem with that.

So wanted to have Andrew on and we basically talked about what is the responsibility of a pastor and brought in broader aspect all Christians when it comes to social media.

What, what's the ethics standard?

What's the morality standard?

What's the biblical standard?

And you know, we talked about his situation up top.

We didn't get into a whole lot of personal details.

But you, you'll get the gist of what happened between him and him and Josh and the G3 organization years ago and now three years later.

All this coming out as of, I think, Monday morning a couple days ago.

If you're hearing this on Wednesday, I always forget that, you know, obviously podcast episodes live forever.

So I don't know, maybe you're listening to this four years from now and you're going, what Monday?

But it was a good conversation.

We kept it to about 45 minutes.

He had some things to do, I had some things to do afterwards.

So we didn't get into really super long format.

But we did touch on those things, and I found it very interesting.

And I would just commend my brother, Andrew Rapaport for being humble in that time in his life and even humble in this episode.

He had every right to go see I told you so.

I knew it all along.

He could do all that.

Monday morning quarterbacking Hindsight.

2020.

Is that a word?

2020.

And no.

What did he do on this episode?

And even in a private group chat that I'm in with him, the very first thing out of his mouth when everyone else was talking about it was pray for Josh.

And even on this episode, he said, introspect, don't Monday morning quarterback.

You have sin, I have sin.

We introspect.

We pray for Josh.

And I went, what a humble way and a Christlike way to deal with something to where even I said on the episode, personally, I would have been very offended, and I don't know how I would have handled it.

I don't know if I could have handled it that humbly.

But there you go.

We're going to talk about it, and it was a good episode.

Next, voices.

You hear me, Andrew Rappaport.

Here we go.

Well, Andrew, welcome back to the Deadman Walking podcast.

Frequent guest, One of my buddies, one of my friends, one of my pals.

What's up, brother?

How you doing?

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I wanted to have you on because we just had some.

By the time people are listening to this, it'll be a day or two since it broke that Josh Boyce has stepped down from G3.

Found that there was some.

He had three or four different anon accounts where he was slandering and talking negatively about.

About other brothers in the Lord.

And I wanted to have you on, and I don't want to expose too much.

And if I say something here, we can always edit and post if he.

If it's too uncomfortable.

But I knew about a situation between you and some of those leaders, including Josh, years ago, and you were very humble about it.

And just said, this is what happened and this is kind of what's going on.

And there was slander involved and there, and there was accusations and all those things.

And you said there's not much we can do about it.

Josh has a platform and a ministry and not a lot of people want to talk to me about it.

I do know within my circle, there are quite a few that understood what you were going through and, and we believed what you said and there's not much we could do about it either.

And even to the fact now that some of these accounts that are coming out that he used, you can go back and see that you were.

He used those accounts to attack you and say some things.

And you know what?

Your sin will find you out.

Right, Andrew?

And, and I'm just saying this publicly for anyone listening in my dealings with you, you have always been truthful with me up front, humble.

You never slandered the brother that slandered you.

You didn't say a bad word about him where you had the opportunity to do that and say, this guy did this.

I mean, he did some stuff that I would say, him and some others that could ruin your ministry financially.

Speaking engagements, people saying, no, we're going to cancel because this guy said that or this guy said that.

And you just held on to the truth and you were very biblical and righteous about it.

And I just want to commend, commend you on that publicly because those are the type of Christians that I like to surround myself with because they make me better as a brother in the Lord to go.

We do not gossip.

We obviously defend ourselves.

We stick up for ourselves.

We speak the truth.

Right.

We say exactly what happened, but in no way over the last couple of years with you going through what you went through and you can get into as little or as much detail as you want on that.

You know, did I hear you speak an ill word about someone who came against you very personally with lies and accusations?

And I just wanted to publicly commend you at the top of the show.

And that's one of the reasons I'm having you on.

The other reason I want you to speak on this subject, on the responsibilities of pastors and Christians and social media and what is that standard and what does the Bible call us to?

And I think you're the perfect person to talk about that.

But that was a long intro for me, but I had to get that off my chest.

Well, first off, thanks for having me on.

I.

I'll say this.

I think it is an Important topic.

You.

You brought up the issue with Josh and them.

First thing I did when I heard about it was to.

I emailed Virgil Walker, who works at G3, someone who I love dearly.

And I just said, hey, I'm praying for you, for Josh, for the ministry.

If there's anything I can do to help with it.

I know there's a lot on your shoulders right now.

Just know that I'm praying for you.

And that's.

I have no ill will toward folks.

I mean, look, my attitude is really simple.

What I've done to Christ, I deserve far more than people badmouthing me, slandering me or talking to me.

Amen.

If.

If that is the worst I have to suffer on earth.

Okay.

Yeah, that's doable.

Because what I deserve in my sin against Christ and, and God, I deserve so much worse.

Yeah.

And so that's really been my attitude for, for years of it.

Not.

I didn't get there lightly.

It didn't come easily.

Sure.

But it's really where I've.

I've come to land is the fact that I deserve more than any human could.

Could do to me.

So.

So I'm.

I'm praying for them.

This isn't easy.

I mean, it's the.

The thing I think that would.

That bothers me the most, whether it's this Steve Lawson, any of these.

It's a stain on the bride of Christ.

Yeah.

And the world will use it.

Look, when you get.

When you get people that wouldn't be in our camp, people who, you know, we would see like a Benny Hinn or those guys that we wouldn't see even close to the camp.

But the world, I mean, they don't even know there is a camp.

So the world looks at that and says it's all Christianity.

Yeah.

I mean, world doesn't distinguish between Roman Catholic, Christian, Protestant, you know, Presbyterian or biblical Baptists.

Sorry, just had to get that in there, didn't you?

There's got to be at least one Presbyterian dig because you're going to get about five Baptist digs in throughout the show.

Okay.

Yeah, as long as you didn't say Reformed Baptist, since there's no such thing.

But go on.

So.

So I mean, the reality is, to the world, it.

It all looks the same.

Yeah.

My upbringing, from a Jewish upbringing, I actually thought all of Christianity just.

I called it all Catholic.

Like it was just denominations of Catholic, so.

But it hurts a little bit more when it's someone within our camp, someone that theologically we would agree with, someone who who's, you know, was part of a ministry that we would support.

So there is a range of emotions with people today and, and by the time they hear this, maybe they've dealt with some of these emotions.

But there's a range of emotions that people are going through from hurt because they have a love for Josh Bice, they have a love for G3.

And you know, just like with, with, you know, Steve Lawson, a lot of people went from the, I'm throwing out all of his books and anything he's done to the, the just.

I'm, I'm genuinely hurt.

This is someone that taught me so much and had such an impact on me and they feel let down.

So there's a range of emotions that people are going to be going through because of the ministry God had through Josh bice.

Okay.

And G3 ministries.

And I think it's.

There's two things to.

That we could look at.

One is, as you and I talked about, why would you do the show?

Is basically ethics.

Right.

How should pastors handle social media?

But I think also as people who are receiving from public ministries, when we see someone who, who has a failure like this, there's a range of emotions that people go through.

And my attitude would be for folks to think through is look for the good in the ministry that God had through these people.

They're human, just like you and I.

They could fall just like you and I can fall.

We, we're in danger if we think, oh, I could never do what so and so did.

Fill in the blank.

I mean, right now you mentioned it's Josh Bice, but there's so many before and there'll be so many after.

Yeah, if we think we can't fall like that, then we're in trouble because that's your fall.

And I just want to say too, we're not doing this from a place of loftiness, right.

Of sitting up here and saying, oh, well, looking down on Josh and those who are.

There's many, I believe there's many influencers within the Christian community and even those who have ministries that have a nine accounts and do this.

I will say I've never personally done that.

You know the famous verse, judge not lest you be judged, which the progressive progressives like to interpret as, hey, you can't judge anything.

I do know Christ is saying, you don't get to sit in the seat of judgment on something that's a sin in your own life, a regular sin.

I can say, I've never had any.

Ain't on accounts Nor do I have any desire to have any ainon accounts.

It's troublesome enough for me to just post from my podcast account because I seem to be busy with life and I'm sure you're the same way with all the things you have going on.

So I think we can both sit here from a place of not having committed that particular sin and also call Josh out in brotherly love and also expose this subject to other believers and say, this is something that we have to be wary of.

Not just pastors, but also all Christians, when we're entrusted with social media, posting things online, right?

Slander all the things that come along with it.

Snarkiness, rude jokes, crude talking, all those things talked about that Christ talks about too, about being a reflection of him.

So I think it's an important subject.

And, and for me, for me, to you personally, I would just say, I don't know how you dealt with it so humbly.

I would have been livid.

And maybe that's by the grace of God.

God has not allowed that to happen to me.

Because if you come after me personally and my ministry and all, I mean, think, think about that.

You have one pastor, pastor trying to take down someone who is preaching the gospel because of what?

Personal animosity, jealousy, you know, clicks, whatever it is, we're not going to put any intentions on that.

I'm just saying, boy, if it would have happened to me, I think I'd have lost my salvation for about 15 minutes.

It's like, you know what I mean?

So it's like, I, I appreciate you and this isn't just platitudes.

Once again, I want to establish this up front on the episode that I'm talking to you because I've seen the response modeled in a Christlike way with you.

If this was someone who was going back at someone and then slandering also and creating a nine accounts and arguing back and publicly, you know, I wouldn't have them on my podcast, I go, I'm staying away from that.

But when I know someone who handles it in a way, and I'll tell you, when you handle it that way, it feels like you lose, doesn't it?

Didn't it feel for the last couple years like you just keep losing?

Like people don't believe me or they look at me a certain way or they don't invite me here, or I feel like, like all the things.

And then you go, oh, but look at that.

It is found out.

He's justly dealt with and there's probably Going to be more to come.

And at the end of the day you get to go.

Thank you Lord for taking me through that.

I acted in a Christ like matter and I'm vindicated.

God will be my vengeance.

Yeah, so I think I, I tried to have.

I don't know if it would really be an on account, but I had an account on Facebook that I actually created called Striving for Eternity only because, well, Facebook booted me from my own group and so I created an account and so get out of here.

I could get.

Yeah, like, so that I could, you know, get add myself back in.

And so.

Yeah, that was initially.

But they deleted that one.

So.

And I do have a, A second Twitter that clearly says this is not the official Andrew Rapaport, like go find on Twitter.

And to be clear, for this conversation we're not talking about secondary accounts, general accounts for podcasts or ministry.

I mean, clearly those are linked to.

Because I have one.

Right.

Purposely to.

Yeah, I think in this case, like, purposely to go like there was a, A group many years ago that they had.

They actually.

One of the founders of the group actually created a fake account to attack his ministry so that he could respond to it.

Yeah.

And like.

And look, the reality that sells.

And I get that.

But you know, I think to one thing I do want to say since you said some things publicly, I should, I should say I think that again in Josh's case with me and, and others, I think they're actually doing it out of a sense of, of righteousness.

They feel they, they don't have all the information, but in the limited information that they have, they've drawn conclusions about me that they've never actually tested out.

I mean, and this will be one thing I think that we'll get into when it comes to pastors and online ministry, whether pastor or not, one of the key things I believe we need to see is an attitude of reconciliation with folks.

Yeah.

The, the one thing that, you know, in the case that in my case, if these guys would have practiced reconciliation and been willing to meet with me, we could resolve it probably.

And, and they'd realize, oh, you were actually in the right.

I mean, you know, the, the very people who think that what is happening to Josh because you know, are the, the very same thing that I called out sin and some people didn't like it.

But if you only have one side of a story and everybody.

Look, everyone listening to this who may have read the statement from G3, you have one side of a story.

Very true.

You have really the G3 side of the story.

You don't have Josh's unless you've spoken to Josh, then you have his.

And this is the question I had, whether it's Steve Lawson.

I gotten a lot of flack for not jumping on the bandwagon with Steve Lawson, but I only had one side of a story.

I was waiting for the other side.

It took five months, right?

Yeah.

But this is the one thing we always have to be cautious of for the person who's watching these things play out on social media is to realize that we.

We always have to be cautious.

I.

I'm tempted.

I'll get myself in trouble here, but this is dead man walking, so, hey, we like trouble.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Throw caution to the wind.

You know, the.

The whole situation with the.

The letter that came out with, oh, and I just drew a blank on his name.

I hate getting older.

Joel Webbing.

Yeah.

So I've.

I've been tempted to do a.

Do an episode on Apologetics Live to evaluate the letters that the church put out on Joel Webbing and the letter Joel Webbin put out just on those.

Because I don't agree with Joel Webbing's theology, his more stronger stance against Jewish people.

Me being Jewish, maybe I have a bias there, but I don't agree with his theology.

But when I saw those letters come out, I read those letters and went, you know, I actually think, just based on those, that Joe Webbing's in the right.

Like, why would he think he's under church discipline if in their own letter, they're admitting that they sent him to Texas and.

And paid for him to plant a church?

Like, they supported him, and then they had them come back and speak while they're putting this letter out to people.

It's like, it's a mixed message.

And I'm looking at it like, I.

I just looked at those letters and said, you know, there's more here.

And then Joel's letter comes out.

I go, okay.

It sure looks like when Joel's saying, I didn't know this, that you can make a really strong case for.

For his point of view.

So I could disagree with him.

Yeah.

And still say, based in this situation, I think he was probably in the right now.

More information, I guess, has come out.

I don't have that information.

I didn't look into that.

But in the limited amount that I had, I looked at it and said, you know, people are, oh, but he's a wolf.

He's disqualified.

He may be, but not be like, I can't base it off of this.

Right.

So let me ask you this.

You bring up a very good point, because I think much of what's going on here, when we see ministry leaders, pastors, elders, online, saying some things, creating a nine accounts, whatever it is, getting themselves into hot water, it's a.

And maybe I'm making this too general, but for me, I go, well, they don't have one of the qualifications that they need as a pastor elder, which is discernment.

They're lacking a general sense of discernment.

And we all know, as Spurgeon famously said, discernment isn't knowing right from wrong.

That's easy.

The unbeliever can determine right and wrong just by God's transcendent law.

The discernment is knowing right from almost right.

Correct.

So you bring up a good point in saying, look at.

There's something I could have done here that might very well help the body.

You have this discerning kind of view with Joel webbing and going, I could post something, and I wouldn't be slandering or anything like that, but I'd be talking about this, going, okay, can we accuse this brother based on this?

Yes or no?

This is what the Bible says.

How do you walk that line with someone like you who is striving for eternity?

You've got apologetics live, you speak internationally.

I mean, a lot of people hear your words and see your videos.

Like, what's the line for discernment between I get into this situation and comment on it or I stay totally out of it?

Is it just having all the information?

Is that one of the precursors for you, or is there more things that Christians and pastors should be looking at before speaking to an issue online?

Yeah, and that's a good, really good question.

So I could tell you the easier part of what you shouldn't have.

The easier one, when you should never talk about it, is when you're doing it in your heart, you'll know this if it's you.

I'm doing this to get attention, right?

Whether it's.

Yeah.

And there are people.

Look, I've worked with people in ministry.

I remember a guy who was going up against Theonomy, and he had some really good episodes that tackled it well.

And he literally got a.

He got a big audience because of it.

And he literally said to me, who should I go after next?

Like, what topic?

And I went, no one.

Right.

If you're doing it to get attention for yourself or to make money off it, you know, like, I I think of Julie Royce, you know, she.

Oh, no, I'm just doing discernment.

Yeah.

And you're, you're making a living, a pretty good living off of it.

Right.

So the, the reality is, is that there are people who will do what they call discernment.

Really what it is.

It's, it's.

There is a, a level of that, an evolution.

And I'm using that word not in a scientific sense, but there is an evolution that we see.

Right.

You get someone who exposes somebody for something heinous.

They.

No one knew about it, it was being hidden.

Someone just for whatever reason, finds something out, they dig into it and they expose truth.

They get a platform or people know who they are because of it, and they have the attitude like this other person I mentioned, they look for someone else.

The evolution when you're doing that is that you start looking for who to expose and you're less concerned about the truthfulness and you start looking for, hey, this is what they really mean.

Or, you know, I, like if I just skipped it.

Like, I, I remember someone who wrote an article against John Piper saying that he believed in a workspace salvation.

And they wanted me to review this article.

They said it's, it's rock solid.

And I looked at it and I went through and I searched everything that Piper.

I had actually got all his books digitally so I could do this search because this guy had that Piper said quote, works are necessary to earn salvation, unquote.

And I.

There was no citation and I could not find where that's from.

Yeah.

And I went to the author and said, where did this come from?

And he's like, well, that's what he meant because there was an added word there.

The actual quote that I could find is that works are necessary for salvation.

It didn't say to earn.

Yeah, makes a big difference.

He was talking sanctification, the works of sanctification.

And we would agree with that.

Yeah.

And so you get someone that they, they start going, oh, but this is what he means now it becomes problematic.

We have to be honest.

Look, the reality in the case that you're bringing up today.

Right, Josh, really quickly too, just on the discernment kind of arena, I've found more than not some of these up and coming discerning discerner blogs and, and YouTube channels.

And I would exclude guys like Justin Peters from this.

I, I've talked to him and I know you know him, and I think he does it with the correct intention.

I think that's the problem is what's the intention behind it.

I found most of these guys up and coming.

It is because it feels good to call out someone else's sin because then we can rationalize our own hidden, unrepentant sin that we are not talking about.

And it really puts us in the sweet spot of righteousness when we get to sit on our perch and go, oh yeah, look, what this.

And now everyone shame them.

Meanwhile, you're getting off your podcast or YouTube and you're going out and sinning and you're making sure it's just a secret between you and yourself and you think God's not watching, that sin will catch up to you as well, too.

And I'm just saying intention has a lot to do with it.

I think guys like Justin Peters and maybe a few others, when they have these discernment ministries, is it because they.

Because they want to see justice served, righteousness upheld, and it hurts them to see the bride of Christ be sinned against?

If that's the intention, then by all means, plea.

I would say please post that and be biblical in your post, but we have actually have a duty to that.

Right.

The Bible says to other brothers and sisters in Christ to point them towards their sin, call that out, and call them to repentance.

So I think intention has a lot.

Like you said, self serving is one.

Is there anything else you can think of to where you're looking at something and you go, should I post this or should I get in this subject?

Are we looking at any specific biblical principles before we press send on that tweet or that Facebook post or that video we're gonna make calling someone out or getting into, you know, a quarrel with someone online.

What do you think?

Well, I think, I think.

Let me give you one example of, of someone who does it outstandingly is Todd Friel.

If you're familiar with Todd Frail from Wretched radio.

Sure.

He.

And, and I've, I've talked to him, actually.

I interviewed him once because I said I wanted to talk about this with him because he is, he is outstanding when it comes to.

And, because when he'll sit there and say, okay, there's a line right here, we can't go over this.

Like, we got to stop right here because he doesn't want to go over a line.

Yeah.

And he's really, really good with that.

So if you want an example of, you know, some.

Someone to follow that, that would be a great example.

I think he balances the line too, with his snarkiness and kind of sarcasm.

As well too.

I don't think he goes over the line, but he goes right up to it and he makes it entertaining as well.

Yeah, he does, he does.

And, and so I, I would, I would say, you know, look, look at, there's different people we can look to.

And, and that's helpful.

I would say that with the discernment, with the, you're right.

As the, the fact of people feel like, oh look I'm, I, I, that a self righteousness exposing that the sin.

We can, we can eat too far too easily be like, well I'm, you know, I'm, I'm doing something spiritual.

They, we could justify it.

Yeah.

I don't know too many ministries that say they're doing discernment that put Philippians 3:18 as their verse.

But let me read this because I think my view of discernment, this is a key.

This is Paul.

He's writing about people who are slandering him.

He says that in the beginning of the book, I mean he's in prison and these people are basically like, you know, God's done with Paul.

He's imprisoned them, he's done with them.

And, and he says in the very beginning of this, this letter to the Philippians that they're doing it out of selfish envy.

Right.

They're speaking falsehoods.

But then he can say, I'll start in verse 17.

This is Philippians 3.

17.

Brethren, join in following my example and observe those who were walk according to the pattern and sorry, and let me read again.

Brethren, join in following my example and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us for many walk of whom I've often told you and now tell you even weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.

I do not hear discernment ministries that weep over those that they would call enemies.

Now I can tell you personally, Justin Peters you mentioned does that Justin Peters prays for the people that he calls out.

Not just he doesn't just say, he does say it that he does, but he prays for these individuals to come to repentance.

And we need to have a heart more like Paul's that if you're going to do discernment ministry, are you weeping for these people you call out or, or are you as some have been gleeful because they're looking forward to being able to expose something.

And so when, when should we post it, when shouldn't we?

Things like that.

You know, one of the things that's driving fraternity, we have a rule with our board of Directors and, and our speakers, if one of the board or one of the other speakers comes to any one of us and we, I post something, if anyone comes to me and says take that down, my, my response is not why.

My response is to remove it.

And afterwards we discuss it.

And that's the principle that we have.

And if, if someone doesn't do that, then they're not going to be in, they're not going to be one of our speakers for long and they're not going to be one of, on the board for long.

Because we want to build a trust within our, you know, an accountability that we're going to trust one another first and then ask the why not justify.

And, and there's been plenty of times where I've had one of the guys say, hey, take that down.

You know, and then afterwards I'll be like, here's, here's why I don't think it, it was good to put that up.

And, and then we discuss it and sometimes it's like we talk through it.

Oh, we'll put that back up.

Very rarely do I put one back up after.

Usually it's like, yeah, that should stay down.

Right?

Look, all of us have put things up on, on social media that we think we shouldn't have done that.

I know people that have a 24 hour rule, they wait 24 hours before if they're not sure, give it, give it, get out of the heat of the moment.

But I really think that the big thing that I see, you know, ethically, right, and this is what we were talking about in a, in a, in a signal group that we are in is the ethics of it.

When you have more and more people that are online, there is an allure to building a platform versus doing ministry.

And I do think there's a difference between platform building and ministry.

If you're platform building, your goal is attention, your goal is the likes, the, the clicks, the follows, what, whatever social media engagement it has.

If you're looking to build a platform, that's what you're doing.

So you're going to be more calculating and how you, what you do and how you do things and you're also going to have less rules because hey, if this is garnering me the attention I want for the ministry and I'm doing air quotes there, yeah, hey, great.

And I'm being blessed by God.

You know, Adonai Judson wasn't on social, social media standards wouldn't be considered successful, right?

I mean, doesn't have many followers.

He goes, you Know, gets thrown in prison so they could translate the Bible into the local language.

And he didn't see fruit for years.

Same with many other missionaries.

And yet, you know, that's not how God judges ministry.

And this is the thing we have to.

To recognize.

You look at Isaiah, chapter six, and I have a message.

I.

I do this.

What the.

What is success in ministry?

And, and that's a message I've been preaching for.

For 25 years, so it's not something new.

But I go through Isaiah chapter six, and I don't stop at verse eight.

You know, who, who will go for us?

Here I am.

Send me.

Every missions conference preaches that.

Yeah.

But what does he Continue.

Keep reading.

9, 10, 11, where he's like, lord, how.

What do you want me to do?

Oh, you want me to preach this?

God says to him, you preach until people stick their fingers in their ears, cover their eyes, and go, no, no, no, no.

Because they'd want to drown you out.

And Isaiah's question is, like, how long?

Oh, until the cities are desolate.

Wow.

You know, Isaiah was successful in ministry not because many of the Jewish nation followed him.

No, he was successful because he did what God called him to do, and the nation turned against God in the process.

Yeah, like, that was success because he was obedient and faithful to his calling of God.

Had nothing to do with the numbers.

And, and the big draw of the platform builders are the.

The numbers.

Yeah.

You know.

You know what's crazy when I think about it is when you look at all of the ministries that have popped up over the last 20 years, especially with the growth in platforming of the Internet, you just, you sit back and wonder.

1.

You even said it.

Growing my ministry.

I hear people say a lot of time, well, my platform, my ministry, my YouTube.

You go, really?

Is it yours?

Because it's supposed to be God's.

And then all these people kind of getting their little 15 minutes of fame, and you go, well, shouldn't the fame be to Christ and Christ alone?

Right?

So you got two things working against you.

People looking at you and you thinking that's your platform, when in fact you're just a steward of everything the Lord gives you while you're here on Earth.

And I look at a lot of these YouTube channels and podcasts and ministries, and I go, I wonder what the percentages of them that they're just kind of doing what they.

They really want to do, what's making them feel good about.

I don't know, their life, their ministry, their.

Their pastoral Ship their.

Growing their platform.

If they.

If I'd probably say if 80% of these actually sat down and prayed and said, lord, what is it that you want me to do with this?

How can I be used?

I think you'd see many of these going in a much different direction.

I don't think they'd be quite as popular.

Air quotes, you know, clickbaity and all that stuff.

And I think it's a shame because I think there's a lot of pride that creeps into that.

Now look at.

I'm not.

I'm not doing this episode just to, you know, you know, call out and kind of, you know, throw shade on anyone who has a podcast or ministry or whatever.

You have a very successful ministry.

I'm not saying that.

I'm not saying you can't have something that, you know, promotes the word of God, and we want to do that righteously.

What I'm saying is, you see, see so many of these pop up and rise to fame and then fall and then rise to fame and then fall over.

Just maybe sometimes a few years.

Sometimes it makes me sit back and go, okay, were they truly doing what the Lord had called them to do or did something else creep in?

Because there's a lot of temptations as, you know, along the way when people start recognizing you and want to pay you to go places and want you to promote this and look at this book and write this forward, and, hey, you're in this little club now, and it's kind of crazy.

You can fall into that trap pretty easily.

It's very seductive.

I.

I remember the first time I recognized it.

And look, folks, we are all susceptible to pride.

We all want to be liked.

We all want people to.

It is seductive.

I.

I remember I was at the deeper conference.

This is going back many years.

A friend of mine, his.

His name is Mark Cahill.

We're not friends anymore.

He doesn't think I'm saved because he doesn't think any Calvinists are.

But that's okay.

He's actually a Calvinist.

He just has a wrong definition of the.

Of the term.

But a great guy, you know, just a very generous guy.

And he wanted.

I had something for him.

He was like, hey, bring it to the conference.

Okay?

So he's got this line going around the corner and all these people waiting to.

To talk to him.

And I just, you know, walked up and tapped him on the shoulder when he was done talking to someone because I didn't want to talk to him.

I was just going to give him something and leave, right?

And this, you know, so he.

So I tap him on the shoulder.

He looks down, and when I say looks down, he's, you know, like, 6, 8, 6, 10.

So he's looking down and.

And he sees me and said, hey, you know, I just.

I gave him what I needed to give him.

And he.

He was like, hey, how was that conference?

And he wanted to talk.

And I'm like.

And I just said to him, hey, call me next week.

Like, you got this.

Like, I didn't want to be.

Because I just cut the line, right?

Yeah.

I said, call me next week.

We'll talk.

Right?

This guy sees that, and he was just kind of in that hover position.

If you've ever been.

You've been to enough conferences, you know, that hover position when someone's just.

They're waiting, they want to kind of be close to whoever the.

The speaker is.

And so this guy's in hover position when.

When I'm walking away and Mark's going, hey, I'll call you next week.

I said, okay.

And I walk away.

This guy came right up to me, and he.

He's pretending like he wants to know me.

He does not care.

He doesn't know who I am.

He doesn't care about me at all.

He knows that I know Mark, so he wants to know me now.

That was the first that I.

I recognized.

I was like.

I recognized right there.

Like, there was part of me.

I was like, hey, he wants to know who I am.

And then I realized, no, he doesn't.

Yeah.

And I did exactly what you would not do.

Greg, what's up?

I lied.

I.

I sat there before.

I.

I just.

I had this feeling like I.

There was this pride within me, and my immediate reaction was to try to get out of it.

And so I said, hey, I'm sorry.

I got somewhere I got to be.

And I.

And I walked out the doors.

I had nowhere to be.

Yeah.

I actually walked around the building so I could not, like, walk right back in because I wanted.

Right.

And I walk around going, lord, why did I do that?

Like, but it is so seductive.

And we have to be aware of our pride.

So I'm not someone that's like, oh, you know, like, you.

You're.

I think I kind of heard you in the beginning of show.

And I'm going, yeah, that's not me.

There's lots of struggle I had.

I was looking.

I wasn't saying you're perfect.

I'm just saying one of the first times we ever Met.

You were the keynote speaker at a conference, and you're helping me set up my equipment for podcasting.

And I'm going, what speaker does that?

I've only had two other guys do that in the five years I've been doing this at any conference.

That felt like, here, brother, let me help you set this up.

But also, I'm the keynote speaker that people are here to listen to.

I like that dynamic.

It shows a humbleness.

It shows a level of, you know, like you said at the top of the show, one of my favorite parables, the parable of the borrower that gets relieved of a debt.

Oh, we brought blacked out there.

That gets relieved of a lifelong debt that he cannot pay to the king.

Walks out, turns around, sees that his brother owes him a few bucks, throws him in prison.

I mean, like you said, I've been forgiven of such a huge debt by Christ.

How can I dare then go hold something so minor in comparison against a brother in the Lord or even a non believer?

Well, I think you're touching on another element of ethics when we're in do social media, whether pastor or not.

But I know you wanted to focus on.

On pastor or all Christians.

I think, I think it's good for everyone.

There is a.

A point where, you know, I mentioned the.

We have to be.

We have to have hearts of reconciliation.

That's.

That's one thing.

Another thing is we have to have hearts of not thinking we're above another believer.

You know, James talks about not judging if we're going to judge believers in an unbiblical way, like we're setting ourselves up as, as their judge over God's word.

God's word should be the only thing we judge one another by.

Not whether I agree or disagree with.

You don't like how you're doing things.

I mean, I mentioned Joel Webbing.

I.

I don't.

I don't know a lot about him.

I don't think I would agree with much of what I've heard that knows how I'm saying that, folks, I make the distinction between what I've heard about him and what I actually know about him.

I know very little about him.

Yes.

I was on a podcast once with them.

Yeah.

Didn't know who he was at the time.

Yeah.

But the, the thing is that what you're bringing out is that we can't think we.

That we're above someone else.

Yeah.

Once we start thinking, well, I'm the keynote speaker in the, in the case you're giving, that's the pride and, and pride is the main issue that we see here that people start to justify a lot of things in the name of pride.

Whether they.

Oh well, they.

This is discernment, this is ministry, this is fill in the blank.

There's a lot of people that will do things in the name of something else.

But really what it is is pride.

And I got news for all of us.

A, we're all susceptible to it.

B, we could all be seduced by it.

And three, pride is the one thing that will always tell you you're right, never tells you you're wrong.

Right will always justify whatever you're doing and say you're in the right.

And so if you have a bunch of people telling you you're in the wrong, listen to that.

Yeah, could be a good indicator.

Right, exactly.

Because pride is self deception by its very nature.

And so we have to be careful if we always think we're right in almost any situation.

Look, you mentioned some of the situations.

Very, very quickly too.

Pride is very good at using whatever your base personality is to justify you being right.

If you're someone who always seeks after justice and, and likes kind of being confrontational and kind of like seeking after the truth, you might say something and everyone else is saying oh, you're wrong.

Repent and pride will go.

See, you're the only one who says it like it is.

You're the only one who will stand up for that.

If you're the type of person who likes to play the victim and likes to be the one who goes, oh poor me, pride will go.

See, everyone just always picks on you.

You're.

This is how it is.

Your whole life you stay true to what you said because everyone just doesn't like, right?

So it knows how to navigate your own flesh and rationalize you doing the wrong thing.

The sinful thing.

Sounds like you've struggled with it once or twice too.

100 on all spectrums.

That's why I'm an expert in sin.

We all are.

I know I'm not alone, but there's many people that want to give Paul a run for his money on who the chief of centers really is.

I actually had a seminary professor was very interesting side note tangent but looking he decided to read Paul chronologically how Paul had written.

And the thing that's interesting is that he noticed that Paul is harder on himself the longer he walked with Christ.

He, he.

His view of his own sin begot became much, much worse as he was walking with Christ to the end of his life.

His one of his last books, he says, I'm the chief of sinners.

Yeah, very interesting.

And when he said that, I start to realize, and this has been true.

Like, I think the, the reason that I, I could deal with things differently now than when I was younger is because I start to see how wicked I really am.

And I'm going, oh, like, like, why am I calling this out on other people when I'm kind of worse than them?

And, but if I, if I lived with them, they, they'd probably think, no, no, I'm worse than you.

Right.

The, the reality is, is that we have to recognize our own pride.

We have to, we have to be able to question ourselves to whether what we're doing is prideful.

And if there's a doubt, then don't do it.

I mean, you mentioned clickbait.

I, I personally believe clickbait is sinful.

Now, folks don't know what clickbait is when you, you put something in the title just to get someone to click on it, but you really don't deal.

With the issue or you walk it back.

I've seen that too.

Right.

Like, you soften it throughout the episode, or you're going, okay, that's not even really what you meant.

Yeah.

I remember an episode someone did about theonomy, and they never even mentioned it throughout the entire episode.

It was, you know, it was like.

A button issue at the time.

So they put that in the title.

They titled it the Danger, you know, addressing the Dangers of theonomy.

And they never even covered it.

I've seen other things where they'll say something and they'll title it, and at the end of the show, they'll just go, oh, yeah.

And, and they just.

Why do, why do that?

Because you're trying to get people to pay attention to you, to what you're doing, to the episode, to the, the post, whatever it is.

I mean, I, I was bashing dispensationalism and.

Sorry about that.

Yeah.

Just kidding.

He's someone I knew personally, and I contacted him personally and I said, you know that dispensationalists don't believe that I know that you know this.

Right.

Like, intentionally misrepresenting them.

Correct.

Yeah.

And his response literally was, I know, but it gets the clicks.

And the more people that like it, the more that they'll see other things that I post.

Yeah.

And I, I, my response was, brother, that that's wrong.

That's sinful behavior.

Like, you're, you're purposely causing division in the body of Christ.

So that you can get more attention for yourself.

Yeah.

And he immediately was trying to like, no, no, that's not what I'm doing.

No, that's what you're doing.

Like, like, let's recognize it.

And I, I think our friendship kind of ended at that moment because we real, we just kind of drifted apart.

But there is something when.

About the ethics we don't think about when we post.

Why are we posting it?

It's not just what are we posting, but motivations.

Yeah.

So to me, it sounds like it's a lot like in real life, the Lord says, what are your intentions for how you speak, how you act, how you react?

We should be having those same standards for even social media.

Why am I posting this?

What am I trying to gain out of it?

What are my intentions?

Right.

Greg, how many people do you know that have said something online to you or about you, that you know them personally and you know that if you're, if they're right in your face, they would never say the things that they just typed?

Dude.

It happens in real time, especially as an elected official.

They will say something and then I see them at a meeting or out in public, and boy, do they.

The, you know, deer in headlights and you go look at.

I didn't take offense to it.

I don't know why you're cowering about it, but it is funny how everyone's a keyboard cowboy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The keyboard warriors that, you know, they're, they're willing to say things that they would never say to your face, but when you're posting, post it as if you're saying it directly to the person.

They're right in front of you.

Yeah.

Are you still willing to say it?

I mean, these, those are some good things to think about.

It's so easy, Greg, for people to, to look at a.

Today's hot button issue is Josh Bice.

Yeah.

So many people that are going to be.

And I'm not.

When these things happen, I usually try and stay off of social media for a few days.

Yeah.

There's probably so many people on X and Facebook that are bashing Josh and finding.

Oh, well, I've seen it.

Like I could have seen this coming and this and that.

Everyone's a Monday motor, Monday morning quarterback.

Right, Right, Correct.

And the reality is, is that they're, they're jumping on it and they're, they're gonna bash, you know, Josh.

How many of these people are praying for him?

I, I'll tell you right now, I've already prayed for him.

Several times today, I've prayed for the other people.

I've prayed for, you know, the, the people who I know that are involved with G3.

I've prayed for Virgil Walker.

I've prayed for Tom Buck.

I've prayed for Scott.

Annual people who.

I don't know Scott that well, but I know the other two personally.

I, I've prayed because these are hard decisions, what they had to do.

Sure.

And it's hard to stand up and do what's right.

So it, it is a difficult thing for.

To, to say to someone that you would count as a personal friend and say, you got, you got to step out of ministry.

Yeah.

That's not easy.

No.

All right, so let's finish this up.

I know you've got a heart out.

You've got things that you have to do today.

And I would just tackle on to really quick for the listeners.

You said, you know, post something as if you're saying it right to them.

I.

But also, be warned, I fell into the trap of going, well, I would tell someone this to their face, so I'm okay to post it.

And then my wife just said, yeah, but you're just being rude and obnoxious to people's faces, so it doesn't make it right.

No, I know you're laughing, but I almost used that as an excuse, Andrew.

I was like, well, I'll tell someone right to their face.

I don't like this and that, and they're that and they're this.

And she goes, yeah, but that's not reflecting Christ.

You're just being.

You're just.

You're not reflecting Christ in your personal life and on social media.

So let's act like we're talking to someone else.

But also let's line it up with the Beatitudes, how Christ acted, what Paul commands us to do in.

In Romans and so on and so forth as well.

But we only have a couple minutes left.

You and I do have this.

This problem because both of us have black belts and sarcasm and so we could drop people with a word, and that does make it all right.

But it's fun to hang out together, isn't it, when we're in a group.

Love Language is a sarcasm.

Right.

But we got a couple minutes left here, so finish, Finish us up.

Give us the final word, Andrew.

Take us out.

Take us home.

So my, I mean, my thing is, look, I know that there's a range of emotions people are going through right now with this, but use this as a, As a learning for all of Us, Right.

There's a range of motions from disappointment in what happened with this particular teacher, whoever it might be, that that has let you down.

Being hurt by what they did, feeling you got throughout the whole ministry, feeling you have to toss everything they've done, there's that wide range.

How do we deal with that?

Well, for those people that are on the sidelines watching and are hurt, let me just say, look, Josh is a brother in Christ in this case, same with Steve Lawson or any of the others.

And, and there's someone that we should be lifting up in prayer.

We shouldn't throw out everything they've done.

We should see the value in how God has used them.

Because guess what?

It was never Josh's ministry.

The dead man walking is not your ministry.

Striving for attorney is not my ministry.

It is God's ministry through us.

So be thankful for what God did through these teachers to impact your life and help you.

To those who are the Monday morning quarterbacks, to the person who's just going to jump on the bandwagon because they get someone else that they can go and criticize.

I've already seen some of it where people are like, oh, well, there was this, I guess a few weeks ago, there was some other, you know, thing with the, the conference and a charger of VIP thing and people like, I'll see.

But we should have seen that.

Like, no, like, stop with all of that.

Here's an idea.

How about you rally together?

Because guess what?

The biggest problem, Greg, that I see in Christianity is that we're really, we're really good with unbelievers.

We'll work better with them than we will other believers.

When we work with, when we work with someone who you look at in politic politics, you'll have Christians that'll, they'll look for the good in a Glenn Beck who's a Mormon, and they'll say, see, we could, we could work together.

Look what we could do.

Look at all this.

That he, he's doing good here.

He's doing good.

But then you get a Christian, a fellow brother in Christ and all notice differences.

Yeah, it's like, well, he doesn't agree with this.

He doesn't agree with this.

He's not this, he's not that.

We need to recognize the real battle is not within.

Like, we got to end this tribalism because that's really, Social media has really made the tribalism within Christianity highlighted.

We need to be working together because it, the, the solution to the world system.

The problems we see is the gospel and we, we need it doesn't mean we have to pretend like we don't disagree.

You and I, you know, you're Presbyterian, I'm biblical.

You know.

That in there before the end of the show.

Huh.

We have people.

I had Gabe from Wrench, and so he and I were at a conference together.

We would be at pretty in opposite ends of spectrum.

Yeah.

We shared our hotel room.

He and I told him, I wish that we recorded our discussion because we sat there for three hours discussing theology and finding a lot of agreement.

We just sat there, we're like, oh.

You know, and even where we disagreed, we're both like, well, at least I could see you're being consistent in how you're coming to that.

Yeah.

And we both became much better friends for that.

And I think that we value each other a lot better in our positions.

And so, so the thing is that there needs to be more of that.

I think that, you know, I think about how in scripture, both, I think it's John and Paul both talk about the, the child.

You know, when you're first a believer and you're just like, I can't believe that I'm saved.

Like, I just love the Father and, and then, you know, that middle aged man just wants to fight the devil and you know, and that's the keyboard warrior, wants to go after everybody.

I think that final stage is where you're just like, you just, you just love the Lord.

Yeah.

And you love his and you love his bride and you're like, you want to see the best.

Yeah, Correct.

And I think that that's where we need to get to.

And for the Monday morning quarterbacks that are just piling on right now, I just want to caution those folks to say, let's take a step back and let me evaluate my own heart.

Because yes, these things, some of these things happen and they're now exposed to the public.

Right.

Would any of you listening want the last 24 hours of what your thought life was like?

Would you want that on national tv?

Because I mean, that's what's happening with, with right now with some people.

And you should be praying for them because they're.

There's someone you're going to spend eternity with.

Yeah.

And so for the Monday morning quarterbacks, maybe back off from trying to say how right you are and just stay off the media and pray for them.

Yes.

You know, instead.

And then for those who are in ministry, I would say be cautious, be cautious because any of us can fall into this.

And I also want to say that, like some of the things we call people out and say, oh, they're disqualified.

I don't know.

You know, some of it, I think we just make too big of a deal of too small of a thing.

Yeah, well, it's part of the cancel culture.

It's part of people, like I said, wanting to rationalize kind of their own position.

It feels good in our flesh to call someone else a sinner.

It's hard to introspect and say, wait a minute, we are also the center, but that's a good place to end.

Andrew, thanks so much for being here.

Obviously we're going to link up all the places where people can listen to you and see you.

We're also going to include the link for your awesome book, what do We Believe?

I've got one of the hard copy editions.

Look at that.

I think it might even be a little, little personal note there.

I don't want to give away too much what he said, but we'll link that up too.

But shout out where people can find you and what you got going on as we wrap up here.

Well, if they go to striving for eternity.org they can find everything there.

My books, my podcasts are there.

Christian podcast community.org is where all of our podcasts are.

But I do my pod 2 main podcast I do is the Rap Report, which is playing my last name, and then the Apologex Live, which is a live stream that we do Thursday nights.

Fun.

You come in and you debate people and you don't even know what the subject's going to be.

Anyone can pop in in they have a theological subject and you will debate.

And like you famously said, a good debate tactic can sometimes be, I don't know.

So, you know, it becomes maybe the Stump Andrew Rappaport Hour, which is a fun live stream and I've jumped into that many times.

All right, Andrew, thanks so much for jumping on a short notice talking to us about very important issue.

Appreciate you, brother, and we love you.

Thank you, brother.

Thanks for having me on.

All right, guys, thanks for listening to another episode of Dead Men Walking podcast.

As always, you can find out more about us at@dmwpodcast.com go support the show.

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How about you shut up and let that be your wisdom?

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Remember the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

God Bless.

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Then your biscuits.