Matt Edmundson: Well, welcome to the eCommerce podcast with
me, your host, Matt Edmundson.
The eCommerce podcast is all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow.
And to help us do just that.
I am chatting with my very special guest today, Norm Farrar from the Lunch with
Norm Podcast about perceived value.
Is it all just American hype or is there something to it?
We're gonna get into that.
Uh, if this is your first time here, a warm welcome to you
here, the eCommerce podcast.
Uh, you can find the notes, the transcript, everything for free on
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You can get that totally to your inbox, totally free.
Totally amazing.
Love that technology.
So make sure you sign up for that.
This episode is brought to you by the ecommerce cohort, uh, which helps you to
deliver e-commerce Wow to your customers.
Now, I was on a podcast earlier on Norm, and they said to me, You know,
some of the biggest lessons that you've learned, I said, Well, one
of the most expensive mistakes was when I got siloed in e-commerce.
In other words, I just worked on one or two.
Of my business and I missed the bigger picture.
Well enter e-commerce cohort to solve this problem.
It is a membership group, uh, with guided monthly sprints that cycle
through all the key areas of e-commerce.
So the sole purpose of cohort is to provide you with clear actionable
jobs to be done so you'll know what to work on as well as get the
support you need to get it done.
So whether you are just starting out in e-commerce or if like me, Well, a
well established eCommerce, I would encourage you to definitely check it out.
eCommerce cohort.com is the website.
Uh, more information is available, uh, on the site.
Explains it in much better vernacular than I've just used.
But go ahead, check it out.
eCommerce cohort.com.
If you're involved in e-commerce, you'll probably want to
join, so head on over there.
Let's chat with Mr.
Norman Farrar.
He is an entreprevwe.
An entreprever, or an entrepreneur.
Take your pick.
We don't mind.
who provides online marketing and managed eCommerce solutions for brands.
Check this out, folks.
He has worked with Fortune five under companies such as Coca-Cola,
Mercedes-Benz, and 20th Century Fox, uh, since the early 1990s.
Norm.
Focused on helping entrepreneurs optimize their operations and
unlock their business potential.
Presently, he is the host of the popular Amazon Podcast Lunch With Norm.
I actually have been on Norm's podcast.
That's how we met.
We had a great time and a great conversation, and I knew actually
following on from that conversation on, we needed to get you onto the
eCommerce podcast cause I thought.
You've got some great value to add to what we do here, so thank you for coming on.
Great to, great to see you again.
How are we
doing?
Norm Farrar: Uh, it's the first time I've ever been called an entreprevert.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure if I, how I would feel about that.
Uh, so I'm sorry about that.
You can put that on your business cards going forward.
Norm Farrar: Exactly.
Matt Edmundson: Now, if you are listening
to the podcast, the one thing that you won't know about Norm, uh, is Norm has the
most incredible beard you have ever seen.
Right?
And so, uh, and actually in all your branding is obviously, you know, the
beard is a, is a big feature norm.
It's something that you are remembered by.
So how long have you done the beard thing?
I'm curious.
Norm Farrar: Well, uh, I've done it.
About five years.
I've burnt it off right down the middle.
Cooking hamburgers one night, so I look like you down.
And it took about two and a half years to grow back.
Yeah.
That portion of it.
But, uh, yeah, it's, yeah, it's been growing for a long time.
Matt Edmundson: Wow.
Well, it's great, man.
I, I have beard envy, I'm not gonna lie.
Uh, it's, uh, it's an awesome, it's an awesome piece of, So, whereabouts
in the world are you, Let's tell the good folks a bit about you.
Whereabouts are.
Norm Farrar: I live in a very small town about two hours north of Toronto.
Matt Edmundson: Okay.
And so is it colder for you than it is for me?
You must be quite far north, right?
Norm Farrar: Ah, don't even bring that up.
I had a foot of snow last
night.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, it's definitely colder for you than it is for me.
That's impressive.
Foot of snow.
Norm Farrar: Yeah.
Not happy.
Matt Edmundson: No.
Well, you know, uh, it's, it's always nice speaking to people that
maybe have slightly colder weather than what we have here in England.
I, I feel slightly better about myself.
Uh, it doesn't happen often, . So how did you, how did you get started with,
um, let's start with the podcast.
What kick started that?
The lunch with Norm.
Norm Farrar: That's a covid
thing.
I had my kids back, so I had to, my three boys were outside, two of us were smoking
cigars and, uh, anyways, uh, we were just talking and phone rang and started helping
out somebody, and then phone rang again.
Somebody had a problem.
Phone rang three times while we were having the cigar.
And my one son.
You know, you should do a podcast or something.
And I, anybody who knows me, especially back then, I'm scared to death talking.
I don't like public speaking.
I don't, Oh really?
I would never, ever have done a podcast.
I don't like it.
Um, now, It's different.
Uh, I've done it enough that, uh, you know, I'm okay.
But back then it was, I, I couldn't even watch, like the first time we
did it, our guest showed up late.
So people position dropped to the floor not knowing what to say, you know, just,
just feeling sick, like, oh, he was like, pure, you know, that you're just kind
of pulling myself back up to the chair.
But, uh, that's how I got started.
It was the guys, my boys, and then we tried to find different angles.
So, uh, we, you know, we wanted it to sound, uh, professional.
So my son is a musician.
He put every, everything together, the graphics Kelsey did.
Then we came up with this thing called Wheel of Kelsey, and.
It's a giveaway that we give out every, every, every episode.
You saw that And, yeah.
Yeah.
This kind of people know us now for, you know, information and
also this Wheel of Kelsey thing.
Matt Edmundson: It's brilliant because your podcast is, is live, right?
It's an interactive live podcast.
And so people get to comment, they go on this, uh, Wheel of Kelsey
and you pick out a winner and the winner will usually win something.
Uh, I thought it was all good fun and obviously you, you draw in an
audience, but you are prolific, right?
This is not like once a month you are doing this.
This is, this is quite a regular podcast.
Norm Farrar: three times a week.
Yep.
Live at noon, Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
It's, it's a bit of work.
Matt Edmundson: Does it, does it, does it suck the life out of your,
or do you find an energy in it now?
Norm Farrar: Oh.
It's like I own a variety of different businesses.
I find good people.
I can, I can oversee the larger picture, but they run the business for me.
And that's the same thing with lunch with Norm.
When I go and sit down with somebody, I get the, the facts or the bio
or the information about who I'm interviewing, about five to 10
minutes before I get in and I, I talk.
So everything is done where we've got.
A VA sending out and looking out, like outreach to try to find people.
Uh, we have back and forth, you saw probably the, uh, emails
that went back and forth mm-hmm.
, uh, to try to get the information.
Uh, and then, uh, Kelsey comes on and he takes care of, you
know, all the back and forth.
So we have a producer, which is him, and then one other
person that does the outreach.
And then we do have, we spend a lot of time and money on, um, social media.
So we have another person doing that as well.
Mm-hmm.
. But, uh, yeah, my, my role in this, I, because I, I can't
spend hours doing it every day.
Uh, mine is sit down Monday, Wednesday, Friday for an hour, and I'm, I get
prepped about 10 minutes beforehand.
That's fantastic.
And, and you do, you just have these conversations with people, don't you?
And it, it's really intriguing where.
It's just what we didn't want it to be is like, uh, we, we just wanted a
casual, um, Very casual interview and, uh, I used to have this other pod, like
I told you before, I hated podcasts.
Well, we didn't launch one, We launched two . That's the sign behind me.
Uh, it's called, I Know This Guy.
And all it was, was talking about the, uh, the, the person's, uh, their backstory,
but I called it failure to Succeed.
What it takes, Like what was your failure that brought you
to where you are right now.
Yeah, and it's kind of interesting that that happened.
It was just so casual.
We were bringing out all this information and.
We just kind of applied it over to lunch with Norm.
It's just sit back, relax, we go down a ton of different rabbit holes.
And at the end of the day, you know, uh, we've got a really great community
that, uh, that is very engaging.
So we know a lot of people by name.
We know where they live.
We, you know, it's, it's a, it's a really engaged community.
Yeah, it is.
It is.
And so, um, who, who's the podcast aimed at or.
Well, we're, we're trying to mix it up.
So originally it was Amazon FBA sellers.
Yeah.
Uh, however, the bigger audience and where people are going.
So it's evolved, especially over covid.
What we're finding is the people who have been on Amazon, uh, they're
tired of being a one-legged stool.
Mm-hmm.
, Amazon can come and they can, you know, close their account down or they can make
it tougher, put inventory restrictions on, so they need it to spread.
Okay.
What's the next step?
Okay.
Walmart, Shopify.
Uh, today we had a really great guest, Steve Wiedman on
about SEO content marketing.
Mm-hmm.
so.
Anyways, uh, we are, we are still targeting Amazon.
Our audience is made up a third or third or third.
People who know very little are just coming off of a course, the intermediate
and then the advance we've got.
Mm-hmm.
, I know for a fact we've got some sellers that are a million dollars a month.
Uh, I know one person that's there who, um, has had over
a billion dollars in sales.
Actually, there's a couple people.
A billion dollars in sales.
And um, you know, I've sat down, I like, after I heard about them because
we interview some of our brands sometimes that, that are listeners
and to hear their stories and you're sitting there going, Oh my gosh.
First of all, you gotta become on the podcast.
You gotta tell me your story and tell me what I need to know because yeah, I
can learn so much from all these other.
. Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Yeah.
And in interviewing people that have turned, you know, sold a billion dollars
of products through Amazon, uh, what are some of the lessons that you've learned?
Norm Farrar: Resilience, number one.
Mm.
So, you know, uh, I always say, uh, when you, and it doesn't have to be Amazon.
It could be with licensing, it could be with any business venture
that you get into that you have to become that authority figure.
Because authority, p figures, uh, builds trust, but the resilience
factor comes in is when you get hit between the legs and you drop to your
knees and you think it's over for me.
And to be able to stand up and do it again.
Yeah.
And you know, a hundred times over when you say, Please kick me between the
legs, um, you know, . But that's it.
What I found is that first of all, It's being resilient.
Second of all, it's being the authority.
Yeah.
Authority equals trust equals sales and jumping on opportunities.
So don't say no, you don't have to go after every shiny object.
Mm-hmm.
. But you have a system in place, systems standard operating, uh, systems so you
can automate and scale your business.
Mm-hmm.
. And then at the end of the.
You just wanna make sure that you have what we'll be talking about in a bit,
building a brand, building perceived value, that people want to come
back based on a customer experience.
That's, that's everybody I've talked to is basically the same.
Matt Edmundson: Well,
that's, It's a mic drop moment, isn't it?
I don't have a mic in my hand, but it's that kind of.
It's, it's funny, isn't it?
How, um, when you talk to people who were mega successful, um, and you are
kind of curious as to how they did it.
It's, it's not, it's not rocket science.
There's just consistency.
Like you say, there's resilience right place, right time.
Um, there's, there's no real silver bullet.
Is there, Uh, I dunno if you've, if you've sort of found this, . But there
is something quite inspiring, usually about the person that you are talking to.
There's usually some massive obstacle they've had to overcome.
Yeah.
Uh, and you, and you think, Wow, okay.
That's maybe why you are where you are at.
Right.
. Norm Farrar: Yeah.
Um, and the other part to this is I think every major seller or
every major business person I've ever met is in that give to get.
So they share.
So they're either mentoring people or they're starting out and they're looking
for mentor, they're going to campaigns, they're trying to become excellent in
whatever they're doing, and they're not afraid to share that information.
Mm.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's a very good point actually.
That is a very good point.
Um, uh, thank you for bringing that up.
So let's talk then about, um, perceived value.
I said to you, I said, Norm, we need to get you on the show.
Uh, we decided to get you to come on the show without any idea
of what we're gonna talk about.
I just knew we'd have a great conversation.
Uh, and you said, Well, let's talk about perceived value, uh, and how
to double your profits in a month on Amazon, and is it all American
height, which I thought was great.
So hence the reason why I've robbed that at the start.
Um, so let, What do you mean when you talk about perceived.
Norm Farrar: I'm talking about the overall customer experience from the
second that they're typing what they're looking for into a search field, seeing
the products, and look, when you're going on to Amazon, I'll just, and I'm gonna
use Amazon, but it could be any platform.
It could be Walmart, it could be on Google, it could be anything.
But when you, when you have the search results, Which one are you gonna click on?
Mm-hmm.
. It doesn't have to be the reviews.
The very first thing you're gonna be looking at is either there's
something different in that image.
So either it's going left or right, and everybody else is going right to left.
Uh, you know, something that brings out a, could be color, it could be
the quality of the overall, um, image.
It's usually that the one that stands out is the person that split test that image.
Against three or four other images that they may have had in product photos.
Does it have, is it doing, The customer research is going
left to right, Right to left.
Is it filling the frame?
Is it Sometimes every one of the products is filling the frame, so
you make it a little bit smaller.
That's really bizarre cuz everybody says, Oh, you gotta fill the frame.
Mm-hmm.
. Try making a bit smaller to draw your attention.
It might be all, all the boxes are black.
Well make it with a one with a yellow stripe.
Something to grab the eye.
Yeah.
The other thing is some are just great with just having the product,
others with the packaging, some with having the cap off or cap on.
Uh, it's, it's, it's just the perfect, uh, product photo.
That's where I start.
And within the product photo.
There's other things.
So on Amazon, if you think about it, or Shopify, you have a storyboard.
So it's a slide deck and a lot of people just throw it up there.
Mm-hmm.
, a lot of people will put a book up there, like you're reading
a book and you've seen it.
It's a book.
Nobody's gonna read your book.
That's over for like, that's.
on the bullet points, what you do is you highlight information, but
like Bert's Bees does this real uh, uh, uh, really does this well.
Yeah.
Where they have a chocolate or a honey, uh, Bert's bees wax, right.
Or uh, you know the lip bum.
Yeah.
They don't anything.
Except high, high, high quality graphics that bring out, like you want to eat
the picture, you know, the chocolate or whatever illustration that they have.
Well, it's the same thing here.
It's being able to bring across that storyboard where,
okay, what is the benefit?
Why am I buying, What pain point am I solving that a lot
of people put out the features?
Well, okay, that's nice, but make that a second or third, or third or fourth pitch.
Yeah.
Lifestyle pictures.
Showing somebody that you've solved their problem, that they're happy.
A lot of the times I see the people that have used user-generated content,
and its like grumpy old men like , Why?
Why did you put that picture up there?
Yeah.
That make sense?
And then a video.
Everything is video nowadays, so you wanna make sure that you have, It doesn't
have to be a Hollywood production.
There's tons and tons of really good video content out there that you, or video
apps that you can get very inexpensive.
And Amazon has their own video creator right now, which is new, that you can
go in there, put in some slides, make it into a gif or gif, whatever you wanna call
it, and put, you know, The bullet points there, so everything's pointing that way.
But the next step with this, and you don't have to do it right off the bat,
I do, when I do my product research, I know that if I'm gonna buy a thousand or
something, I wanna be the best out there.
I know I can get sales right off the bat because I'm gonna do that
research, I'm gonna do the slides, the slide deck properly, and
I'm gonna spend the time to be.
And let me, let me use a case study.
I just, That'd be amazing.
Yeah.
Beforehand, but there's, there's actually two that are really crazy, but
the first one is every single search, every single search that you look at
on Amazon, you'll see that people enter into three different price points.
You've got.
Usually the Chinese manufacturers who just are remming it through at the
lowest price, they don't care about images, They, everything is the lowest.
Yeah.
And sometimes you'll see that people are using the same manufacturer's
pictures, which is kind of funny.
But, um, Dead Sea Mud is one that I took a look at just recently.
Betsy Mud.
The entry point is $6 and 78 cents around a $14 range.
That's your first price tier, eight ounce to 16 ounce.
The next tier up is 24 to 44.
And the same thing, 16 ounce.
But what you'll notice is those pictures, and if you click into those
listings, they're much better research.
They've got better quality design, and the packaging is starting
to take, uh, it's not just in a, uh, an ugly white plastic jar.
Yeah.
Then the highest one, and this was unbelievable, $78.
To $95.
And the $95 brand was 3.5 ounces.
Wow.
But it was really, it looked great.
It was just in, in a frosted glass, um, container.
It looked really high end.
It was everything about the listing and everything about the
images were high perceived value.
Now, there's a trick here if your images are.
And you have great perception, then that's great.
You'll end up with a very high, um, user or uh, uh, customer experience.
If you have really great pictures and your product is terrible,
expect one star reviews all the way, people are gonna be very upset.
Yeah.
And then at the end, you're doing yourself a disservice if you're coming in at price
level two or one with really crappy images and you've got a really great product.
If you're going in, That's why I say you have to go in at the tier
level that you wanna achieve.
Yeah.
Now perceive value.
Everything.
Every time I look at it comes down to the brand.
Is the brand consistent?
If I go in and coffee mug rise of the micro brands,
that's what we are on Amazon.
Everybody is a micro brand.
They're not a huge brand.
Nobody knows you.
What are they gonna do?
They're gonna search you on Google.
Mm-hmm.
. Okay.
If you come up and you're not consistent, if, if you've got certain colors and now.
If they're completely different or you're using 10 different fonts or you
don't have a great message out there, people are looking for red flags.
And if you don't become the authority or if you don't become trustworthy.
So authority equals trust equals sales people will click off very
quickly, so you don't have to have an expensive website, one pager.
Just make it look nice.
Yeah, you don't have to have a ton of social media.
Pick one.
Make it look nice, Do a press release, write a bit of
content, become the authority.
So once people see that and they go back, now they wanna
make sure, okay, it looks great.
The packaging, the overall like, Like let's say there's an outside package and
an outer package, that's gonna be a lot.
Most people don't, especially in the beauty category, don't even put package.
It costs pennies to create a really beautiful package.
And I'll give you an example about that one.
So, uh, I was working with a knife company and they came in
a, just a plastic clam shell.
Cost of the knife was 16 bucks.
Mm-hmm.
, he was selling it at $49.
He was making money.
However, I looked at it and I said, Why don't we put it in a different package?
Let's make it a rigid box.
People, when they open it up, it kind of unveils the, the product.
Mm-hmm.
, and then there's a nice message there.
You have a sheath.
Um, but it's just everything is, is a nicer look.
And we improved the images.
Well, we, we were able to take that from $49 up to $124.
Wow.
And the traffic didn't.
It was, it was very low decrease.
So this guy went from 49 to 124, and then I said, like, I, I knew the manufacturer.
I said, This is the same knife at $16.
Why don't we hammer it instead of have these 67 layers of steel, why don't
we hammer it and put it into a wood container and see what we can do with it?
So, Hammered the steel and it looked like it was completely different.
It was still $16 and we, we brought it out at $224.
Wow.
That's perceived value.
The wood case cost us a couple of bucks.
It was like, I think it was $3 with all the packaging included for an extra
a hundred on top of the a hundred.
That's incredible.
. Yeah.
And those are the things that you're, you're looking at.
So if you took a look at this, what did the what?
What did the mess when?
Like when the customer received it, it comes down now to building the
brand to do it for every product that you have with that brand.
So, The person received this outer box, which looked like an iPhone box.
It had a silhouette of, uh, the knife on the one side,
and then it had a full color.
Uh, it, it looked like a full color knife on the other side.
When they opened it up, there was a, it was a black package
with yellow, so it stood out.
Every other knife was in a black package.
We just put a yellow strip on it, so, Oh, yep.
There's a, your IU is drawn to it and it's magnetic class.
You open it up.
People love the customer experience.
And then we had an insert in there that drove them over to a 52, uh,
week meal plan, and we took, we went to culinary schools with it, and
we gave them all these students.
One condition that they give us recipes and they hold up the knife.
And so now we started to get, and all these young guy, I'm an old guy,
everybody's on social media tagging each other with these knives, sharing
these recipes, and he was able to take those recipes with permission.
Put them on Amazon for his user generated content and in Amazon
Post, which is Amazon Social Media.
Mm-hmm.
, which he had one image that had 200,000 impressions.
Wow.
What did that do for his sales?
Mm-hmm.
. So I'm not gonna go down the, like, that's something else that is really
cool, but you get lots of, um, you can convert very easily using these Amazon
sales, uh, the way that Amazon set it up.
But because he built in this customer experience because, Instead of the
knife, just in a plastic container, you put E Eva foam around it.
So it's a dye cut with an area for your finger to go in to pop
up the knife to make sure that it had this really beautiful sheath.
Now what did he do?
He came out with a multipurpose knife, a pairing knife, a bread knife.
Now the whole, every single one is consistent with the brand.
He's got thousands and thousands and thousands of emails every time
he wants to, uh, sell another.
It's a no brainer.
He can sell it for 10%, send it out there, 10% off, and he's got a ton of people with
his launch because people know the brand.
It's consistent.
So that's a few things.
Now the other thing is safety, so, or the little things I call it.
So I own a soap company.
Mm-hmm.
. And one of the little things that we do is we write an individual note
to every person that buys the soap.
There's lots of soap.
Mm-hmm.
, there's thousands and thousands of orders coming in.
How do you do it?
We don't, We order them from China.
We order our notes and there's, we, they're all generic notes.
Mm-hmm.
. Oh, thanks so much for your soap.
Enjoy your day.
Okay.
20,000 of those come in at a time and you know, it costs us pennies.
Mm-hmm.
, we put them in each order and guess what?
On our reviews.
Oh.
It's such, such a nice personal touch that this company gave us a personalized note.
Yeah.
You know, making sure, And this is psychological shampoo.
You wanna talk about perceived value again, somebody goes and
they, I don't know about you, but you're reaching for shampoo.
Now, don't make any jokes about hair
I have to wash my beard.
So you're, you got your shampoo and it's got the same cap as your conditioner,
or they're in the same bottle.
Well make one cap different or make the color of the
bottle a little bit different.
So, you know.
Oh, that's the conditioner.
That's the shampoo.
Yeah.
Psychological thing.
Shrink wrap.
You know, just, uh, especially like supplements.
I don't know about you, but nowadays if you don't see that seal or if you don't
see the shrink wrap, you get nervous.
Yeah.
You get nervous.
So all these little things add up and then, Pricing optimization.
Mm-hmm.
, you, you have to play with that at launch.
I have a trick.
I take a look at that second tier level, and there's lots in between.
Mm-hmm.
, the first and the second, and the second and the third.
But let's say it's that 24 to $44 level.
Is it The second is the second row.
Mm-hmm.
. I give a coupon that shows my, my mine is in the upper side, so let's say it's
$124 that I'm selling it for, and it has dropped a 99, so it's 99 to 1 24.
I'll give a 20 or $30 coupon that could drop it down to the second.
So people look at it and they go, Wow, I can get this high perceived.
So this first tier product, And it's only gonna cost me in that second tier.
Mm-hmm.
, it's, it's a psychological thing, but if you go back to the Dead Sea,
let's say I can get that $95, uh, Dead Sea Mud for $48, I would do it.
Yeah.
You know, you see the big slash it's 50% off now with the knives, it's
not that much, it's not that big.
A dramatic difference with Thaty mother is.
Matt Edmundson: That's really
interesting, Norm.
So I I, I, I feel like I could listen to your stories all day long.
Um, you're in essence taking products, which people are selling on Amazon and
going, How can I add value to this?
The, the knife was in effect, the same, The, the Dead Sea Mud is in fact the same
mud in all of the, the, the products.
But the way you've, the way you've charged it, the way you do it is you're asking
yourself, Well, how can I improve it?
How can I modify it?
How can I increase the perceived value of this?
And there's a lot of lessons I think to learn here, uh, on that, whether it's
Amazon or whether it's across eCommerce.
It's like, um, how can I reinvent this product or what can I add to it?
And I love that example that you talked about with a knife.
You know, this one's got a sheath and a nicer box.
This one's got a wooden box and we've smacked it a little bit with a hammer.
Um, it's just, it's.
It's really fa So is, is it the way your brain works?
Do you just see something on Amazon and instantly know I can increase
value here by dot, dot, dot.
Norm Farrar: I think it's the time we take on doing competitive analysis and asking
our manufacturer, we, we had no idea.
That, What the heck is a hammered Damascus knife?
Yeah.
I, I've never, you know, heard of it.
We asked them, what can we do different?
And they just happened to have this, Oh, well we have this
knife and we have this knife.
Yeah.
Other same price.
Um, I, this is, um, this is another quick one that I absolutely love.
We had a person approach and say that they, over 18
months, they sold 1000 bucks.
This was to fungus remover.
That's sexy.
to fungus.
Wow.
Yeah.
Okay.
So yeah, I got excited, uh, . So why wasn't it moving anyways?
Well, I knew why it wasn't moving because the box.
Was powder blue.
Imagine this a powder blue box with a yellow.
It was a yellow circle with a foot with toe fungus.
Okay?
Yellow and underneath it were two yellow drops that looked like it
was oozing out of the toe fungus.
And the logo, you could not read, you couldn't read it if you wanted to,
you could even read what this was for.
So, Then when you opened it up in a cheap tuck box, like a cart stock,
tuck box, these two bottles popped out.
They were brown and they had sort of the same look on these bottles.
They were ugly.
They were absolutely nobody would buy them.
So we said, Okay, this really looks like it's medicinal.
You know, it looks ugly.
It looks like you gotta put your head between your knees and kinda
walk in or head down into a pharmacy.
No, let's turn.
When we did the product research, we found out that the same solution helps
strengthen and beautify your nail.
So now we said, Well, let's make this a wellness and health product.
So we did it, we turned it around and we put it in a white box.
Greens, blues, no feed on it.
Mm-hmm.
. We put the logo on it and we, you know, and loud and proud.
It was a tofus remover, but, uh, everything was about beauty.
Everything was about be beautiful nails, and it was a sideline
being this tofus remover.
The first month we brought it out and they were in green bottles.
By the way, this time, like really, it was, it looked really beautiful and when
you opened it up, the, the bottle, the, the, We went from top opening up and
kind of shaking it out to opening it up from the side and unveiling the product.
Mm-hmm.
So there was a message there from the manufacturer, you know, talking
about beautiful nails and how you.
Uh, you know, strengthen these nails on day to day usage.
So that just increased cuz day to day usage is not just when
you have to toenail fungus.
We went the very first month we launched it, it went, uh, to $6,800.
The second month went to 28, the third month went to 68.
67 68, we topped off at $124,000 a month.
Wow.
And then it ran out of inventory.
And this is all 100% because we just changed the perception of the product.
Yeah.
And.
And it went from the, the, the guy, uh, the manufacturer or the brand owner
refused to allow me to put the price up.
He said, Nobody's going to get over 9 99.
Well, yeah, the product looked great.
If you wanna swim with this horrible looking competitors, go for it.
We went from like, the average price was 9 99.
We took it 24 99.
Oh wow.
And.
The guy made a, a ton of money.
Matt Edmundson: That's really, yeah.
Fantastic.
And yet another story.
No.
Uh, of this whole idea of perceived value.
And I can, I, I can, I know what people are thinking cuz
I'm thinking the same thing.
I'm thinking, Oh, I've got some products.
How do I, how do I increase the value of this?
Now you talked about doing competitor research.
Is that where you start?
Do you start looking around and go, Right, well I've got this product here,
let me see what everybody else is doing and figure out how I can make this
better.
Norm Farrar: Yes, absolutely.
So it's not just on Amazon.
Amazon's a good place to take a look, but, and to make, to
look for different products too.
Don't forget, you've got all these crowdfunding sites.
You've got Sharks Tank, you've got Dragons.
Then you've got, uh, Kickstarter, you've got Indigogo.
You can check those out for really cool products and then improve.
And again, go back and ask the manufacturer or if you've got a
plastic shoe stretcher that everybody else has, figure out how you can
first, if is it a good product?
So if not competitors, see what, what their images are.
See what the competitors are saying.
What are the good things?
What are the bad things?
What are the good things and bad things are they saying about your product?
And try to improve on them.
And that's one thing a lot of people forget every time you put in an.
You should be improving.
You should be evolving the product to be a little bit better each time.
Is it on the packaging?
Oh, the QR code.
Can I do something to grab an email address somehow?
Uh, you know, and that's a, that's such an easy way to grab and maintain a customer.
Getting a new customer is really tough.
Repeat customers are uber easy.
When you say, when you have a, when you drive them over to your website and it's
a, a PDF on something stupid, um, are you gonna, will people nowadays give
up their email or their phone number?
You have to make it something of either an added value, something
that's gonna solve a problem, uh, like.
The knife guy.
Two recipe books that were rock solid.
Uh, um, a weekly meal plan that gets sent to the person every week.
And oh, by the way, this is what's happening.
Oh, here's a recipe.
It's just p Now if we would've just with this, we could have
done, uh, an extended warranty.
Mm-hmm.
, that's okay.
But if you can find something that people want, In exchange for their email address.
Man, that's where I think the stats are.
40, 44% of your sales can come from repeat customers, just on email candidates.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,
that would be, I think it would depend on the industry, but
yeah, I totally agree with you.
That would be my experience.
Um, yeah.
And you can grow more if you look after that customer.
Well, yeah, definitely.
Oh.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, we saw our repeat customer rates go through the roof with one of the, with
my beauty company that we sold last year.
We saw the repeat order rates go go significantly higher.
When we took out of the boxes, you know, the big plastic bubbles and like
the plastic pillows, we took those out because we realized people were a
bit more sustainably minded and they were buying a gift for themselves.
So we, we wrapped the whole, the whole order in tissue paper, but the
packaging material, we took out the plastic bubbles and we put in popcorn.
Uh, and it was phenomenal.
Uh, and the repeat rates went through, The people were posting pictures
all on social media just because it had a much more interesting story.
And so, um, I, I get the, the value of this perceived value norm, you've, you've
got my, um, you've got my gray matter.
Uh, whatever the official term is now norm, listen, uh, one of the things that
we touched on before the podcast that I really, I wanted to dig into for at
least a couple of minutes, cause I'm aware of time here, but, um, you've got
this mad influencer challenge, uh, going on and, um, just tell the good folks
what, what this is, what your, what your, what your son's challenged you to.
All right.
So there seems to be a lot of stories norm in your life where
your son said you should do this, and you, you kind of go and do it.
, Norm Farrar: I, I know, I, I gotta stop listening to them, . So, on
the Amazon side, I would consider myself somewhat of an influencer.
Not the biggest, not the small kind of, you know, Goldilocks right in between.
Mm-hmm.
. So I've got a really great following over there, but as a
buyer, I don't have a single, not a single one follower, not one.
So that's a problem.
They told me about becoming an influencer and I said, There's no way
that I can do just like the podcast.
It was like, I'm not gonna do a podcast.
And then I ended up, I ended up liking it.
One of the things we were talking about is how.
Influencers or this whole influencer side of things using influencers.
How do you find them?
Where do you find them?
How do you communicate with them is very difficult or it
looks like it's very difficult.
I wanna end that.
I want to go on TikTok.
It hasn't even started yet, by the way.
Mm-hmm.
. But I want go on TikTok.
I wanna do a video diary just telling people this is what I did today,
this is what I'm doing the next day.
This is, and just keep going.
365 days showing people exactly.
What I did, how I did it, and to grow the base.
But while I'm doing that, this is the stupid part.
I am becoming an influencer with no following.
I am going out there doing the video diary and saying, Hey, if
you wanna become an influencer, everybody's becoming an influencer.
Everybody's got a podcast.
All right, so now on the influencer.
It was tough to get an Amazon or affiliate account.
It was confusing.
Maybe it's just cuz I'm old, but then the influencer side and you know,
getting, getting to be approved.
What did I need?
What did I not need?
What was the equipment that I needed?
I had to build a studio just right over there.
Um, that's different than the broadcast studio.
Uh, what do we need for.
All the problems, all the hurdles that are happening and, alright, so
they challenged me to go from zero to a hundred thousand followers.
So what I need to do is I need, I took the challenge up and I said
like, I got nothing else to do.
. Yeah, I'm going to become an Amazon influencer.
I'm gonna go on TikTok, I'm gonna do Facebook, I'm gonna
do YouTube, and I need product.
Anybody, include anybody who's listening if you want free of charge.
So I'm waiving set of fees.
I'm not doing this.
I'm doing it more of a challenge.
Set up fees, video production fees, uh, photo fees.
If I write content, it's all waived.
It's free.
We're just doing it, and I'm just doing it all like every, every night or on
the weekend, I'm just doing videos and videos and videos and hopeful.
People like what I'm doing and they see the products and they give me a
follow, or they put me into a group that want to get deals and I, you
know, pick up some followers that way.
Yeah, that's my challenge.
So it's called Lunch with Norm deals, uh, you'll be seeing it
more the, the web, the actual.
Is gonna be launching probably next week.
Okay.
I just started going on to Amazon Live and we're planning the TikTok video
journal, uh, probably starting next week.
Matt Edmundson: Wow.
So by the time this podcast comes out, that will in theory be all
live and so people can go and follow you and connect with you and,
and see what the hell's going on.
Norm Farrar: Yeah.
And oh, I should mention the only thing.
So it is not like there's a, a string attached, but we are charging if
there, it's all performance based.
So if you get no sales and you just get, you know, a video out of it, that's fine.
But if you do get sales, we charge 10%.
And the reason we're absorbing all the charges for any paid
advertising, any, anything.
So my focus is building up this challenge.
We're not, and this isn't a course.
It's, This is strictly a challenge that I'm trying to do
to see if I can, I can do it.
That's, it.
Matt Edmundson: Sounds fantastic.
I'm, I'm gonna be following along.
Norm, I'll be one of your followers.
Uh, I'll be, I'll be commenting in there.
No problem.
All right, great.
That sounds great.
So, Norm, listen, you know, uh, this show is sponsored by
the eCommerce cohort, right?
Which is all about using coaching and peer mentoring to deliver eCommerce well.
So I want you to imagine you are stood in a room full of cohorts.
You've just delivered your.
Beach.
You've show, you've told your stories, you've shown photographs
of the Dead Sea mud and the lives and all that sort of stuff.
The Crowd is giving you a stand innovation.
It's going wild.
Yeah.
Going on.
Uh, and you're, you're up there and you go, Well actually, uh, I'm here
thankfully because of dot, dot, dot.
And so you get a chance to thank, uh, those folks who have
had a big impact on your life.
You know, family, mentors, authors, software, podcasters, et cetera.
I'm curious to know who is on the list of people you are thanking and.
Norm Farrar: Prob outside of family out, probably the number
one, and I highly recommend this.
Always trying to improve.
So the biggest improvement, the biggest group of people that I
can thank is something called eo.
It's an association that I, I, 27 years ago I got involved with.
They're still around.
They're a big organization where you have a monthly meeting,
but then you have a forum.
, our farm group still meets 27 years later.
Wow.
And it's like your board of advisors.
So if something comes up, if you have a problem, they will help you out.
Um, and also just the absolute knowledge and meeting people.
They have universities, they call universities that you go to
different cities and you learn, uh, from other business people.
Um, just how to operate your business and run your business properly.
So that's, that's.
That's one.
But within the group, I mean, just there's so many people, so many
individuals that I've been able to, to meet and talk to and expand.
You are who you hang around with, you know?
Absolutely.
People talk together and I got to meet so many people.
So the, that's probably my number one.
If I was gonna thank anybody, it's, uh, entrepreneurial organization.
It's called e.
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.
Yeah, I love those sort of coaching mentoring groups that have been around
for a while and you know each other well.
Uh, and you know, each other's got your back.
That's just brilliant.
That's fantastic.
Listen, Norm, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Honestly, I've loved hearing your stories.
I feel like I've got, you know, a thousand more questions.
I'd love to pick your brains on it some more, some time.
But for now, uh, because of time, how do people reach you?
How do people connect with you if they want to do so?
Norm Farrar: Well, uh, I'll make it really easy.
Norm at amz, like amazon amz.club, not.com or that would be going to Amazon.
So Norm@AMZ.Club.
amz.club.
And of course if you are from the UK that's amz.club true
uh, which is how the Queen would say it.
Uh, well, had, sorry.
That's how she would've said.
That's probably slightly disrespectful now, uh, being the Queen's English.
So Norm, thank you so much for joining us.
We will of course, uh, put Norm's email in the show notes along with a
link to his podcast, uh, which you.
For free, along with a transcript, e-commerce podcast.net, or if
you'll subscribe to the email, it will come direct to your inbox,
uh, at some point this week.
Yes, it will.
So, uh, Norm, listen seriously, man, really appreciate it.
It's been great getting to know you, uh, to connect both on
your podcast and on this one.
It's been an absolute treat and an absolute pleasure.
Thank you so, so much for coming onto.
Oh, you're very welcome.
And we gotta get you back on lunch with Norm.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, well, we'll be doing this again.
I'm sure we'll be going back and forth.
It won't be the first time or the last time rather.
Uh, so there you have it.
What a phenomenal conversation.
Again, huge thanks to Norm for joining me today, and also a
big shout out to today's show.
Sponsor the e-commerce cohort.
Do head over to ecommercecohort.com for more information about this new
type of e-commerce community you.
Join, Be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcast
from because we've got yet more great shows, more great conversations
lined up, and I definitely don't want you to miss any of them.
And in case, dear listener, no one has told you yet today, you are awesome.
Yes you are.
It's just a burden.
You have to bear it.
Norm has to bear it.
I have to bear.
You've gotta bear it.
We may as well just suck it up and get on with it.
Uh, the eCommerce podcast is produced by Orion Media.
You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.
The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole,
Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.
Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson and My Good Self.
And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show
notes, head over to the website eCommercepodcast.net where you can also.
For the weekly newsletter and get all of this good stuff.
Direct your inbox totally for free.
That is it from me and that is it from Norm for this week.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world, I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.