Have you ever tried to hire architectural staff and found your job

ad just isn't getting much attention.

All that you're struggling to attract the best candidates.

So what if you knew how to write a killer job ad to attract great

candidates to your practice?

That's exactly what we're going to help you with in this episode of architecture

business club, the weekly podcast for solo unspool, from architecture

practice owners, just like you.

We want to build a profitable future proof architecture business

that fits around their life.

I'm the host John Clayton.

And if you want a business in architecture that gives you more freedom,

flexibility, and fulfillment, then go to architecture, business club.com

forward slash blueprint and download the architecture business blueprint.

It's the step-by-step formula to freedom for architects,

architecture, technologists, and architectural designers.

And it's absolutely free as a gift from me now let's discuss writing a great job ad.

Eileen Round is the founder and owner of Arch Jobs, a dedicated online

platform for advertising and applying to architectural roles across the UK.

With extensive experience in the architectural sector, she has developed

a profound understanding of the unique challenges faced by job seekers

and businesses in this industry.

She also offers personalized career coaching sessions to assist

job seekers with their CVs and portfolios and provide guidance.

Guidance on structuring an effective job search strategy.

You can learn more at archjobs.

co.

uk.

Aileen, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's really great.

Oh, it's great.

to have you here.

We're going to talk about something really interesting and

valuable, I think for architecture practice owners out there today.

But, but first I know, I know you're a big foodie.

So am I actually, I'm like, uh, I love, I love my food.

So can you, can you tell me about one of your favorite places to eat?

Yeah, so I've just moved from Edinburgh to Dubai, so I can't say

much about the Dubai scene just yet, but I'm exploring it, um, but if anyone

is in Edinburgh, I would highly suggest a Turkish restaurant called Shish.

It's delicious and yeah, just reminds me of my childhood, to be honest.

Oh, that sounds awesome.

I'm going to make a note of that for next time that I'm in Edinburgh.

You have to do that.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Yeah.

We are going to talk about how to write a great job ad so that architecture

practice owners can learn the best practices and find great candidates.

So I think to begin, I'd just like to ask, what is the difference between

a job ad versus a job description?

So I think at first people will think like,

is there even a difference?

But 100%, so job advert is there to sell an opportunity where you're

telling the job seeker, the candidates, like, this is what we're looking for.

This is who we are.

And then you're selling them the benefits and why they should join.

instead of your competitors.

Whereas the job description?

is way more detailed.

You go into more detail such as the job requirements, what

their responsibilities will be.

So it's a bit more of an HR document in my eyes, a bit drier and not really like

selling and making a sound a bit more.

You should come and join us.

Got it.

That, that makes sense to me.

It, would it typically that you'd recommend perhaps writing that

job description first before you think about the job ad?

Is that something that sometimes people skip over?

I mean, most people only have a job description anyway, so I don't

really think that's actually an issue.

So whatever you have as a job description, don't just upload that

as a job advert because it's too dry.

It's too boring.

It will not sell.

So just take that one and then just take whatever, like the most, like just the

requirements, the, um, the, the benefits.

Take the best stuff out and just turn it into a nice, um, yeah, just a

good job advert which actually sells.

Sells you as a praxis and the team.

Brilliant.

That's a interesting point you've made there about selling yourself

as a practice and team to work with.

So that's a very interesting distinction that probably not.

Everybody thinks about underwriting a job ad.

Why, why is it important to invest time in writing that

I think if you think about it, there are, if there, if there's a job,

um, seeker, they'll be looking through so many job adverts or job descriptions, and

they'll just get really bored of them.

So first impressions count.

You don't want to overbear them.

You don't want to make it too niche where someone reads through the,

um, requirements and think there's no way I can meet all of that.

All of those requirements.

They're clearly looking for unicorn.

Off to the next one, which means you'll probably not even get that

many applications through, which if you're a small praxis, you might not

have the the money to pay a recruiter.

So if you think about it, the better the job advert, the higher the

chance is that someone will actually apply to the job advert and then you

can take it from there, hopefully.

brilliant?

That's, that's a great way of putting it as particularly for those small practices,

as you say that, you know, for a very small business or if it's somebody's first

hire, um, it can be expensive potentially to go for a recruitment agency.

So if we can spend a little bit more time and effort on crafting

a really great job ad, and then perhaps avoid having to go through.

recruitment agency, then that's going to be potentially a

huge saving for that practice.

So yeah, really, really good.

advice.

Where can practices advertise their ad?

What options are out there to, to advertise, um, this architectural vacancy?

so I think these days it's actually quite easy and I think there

are quite a few different options.

So you could use your own website and I would hope that everyone's got a good

website because people want to go through and see your projects and read about

your team and what you're working on.

Another way would be to use your social media.

So if you have LinkedIn, if you have a Twitter, Twitter probably less.

I would say upload that, just say that you're hiring and

then provide them with a link.

You could also use Dropbots.

This is basically like an online platform where you can advertise

your position and job seekers can go and apply, um, through that one.

I would always suggest just, um, If you do advertise architectural positions, focus

on the architectural job boards because we already have the right target audience.

Whereas if you go for the more generic ones, it's, it's a bit of a hit and miss.

So I'll probably just say stick with the more architectural focused ones.

And then you could also, depending on how big the team is, you

can also incentivize your team.

And say, do you know anyone?

Can you just reach out to your network?

And also just use your own network.

I think networking is so important, especially if you're a business owner.

Because you, you need a good network around you to, to thrive.

And, um, yeah, people will recommend you.

So you should not underestimate that part.

That's all great advice.

That was an interesting point you made there about

incentivizing your team as well.

So, I mean, how, How could you do that to incentivize them?

I mean, could you, could you like give them a bonus or something or.

Yeah, so normally what, what practices do is if, if let's say, I say,

John, we're looking for an architect.

Do you know anyone?

And he's like, Oh, Eileen, actually I know someone.

You send the CV across, you know, after having a conversation with that candidate.

And if that all works out, it might be in the contract that I say, if you

manage to bring someone on board, you get a thousand pounds, for example, or.

500 pounds after that person.

Past the probationary period.

So usually after three months, um, and that way it's a really nice.

Natural way, but it's also, it can be a little bit tricky because sometimes

people just recruit their mates.

So it could just turn a bit weird, weird office.

Um, so yeah, just always just think of different ways.

If you're looking for a graduate, um, I would suggest contact

the universities as well.

Try and engage with them.

And, um, usually you do manage to get.

Really good.

Well, you find some really talented graduates as well.

So it really depends who you're looking for.

Okay.

Okay.

That's some more good ideas there.

So regarding the, the, the places where we can advertise are there any particular.

Sites or job boards that you know of already that we could

mention to the listeners.

I'm sure, you know, sure, there's one that you can mention, but I'm, I'm

wondering if there might be a few out there that might be worth sharing.

And, and also to your knowledge, um, I presume most of those

job boards, uh, are paid.

I would imagine there's still a fee associated with advertising.

Is that correct for all of those architecture job boards?

Yeah, I mean, um, most architectural job boards will

charge you to, um, to have your job listed, um, which is It depends.

Like some people or some drug would say first time 99 pounds, you know,

will be live for like 28 days.

Others will sell them for 200.

So it really depends.

And I think it's really important to just choose the one, even just trial.

You know, you just test some, you know, don't be too scared.

You just, maybe something works a bit better than the other one.

Um, yes, there are, there are various, um, job boards out there.

You've obviously got something like diseases.

You've got, um, the REBA job boards as well.

Um, c um, they have their own job boards, so you could use arc jobs.

My website, we also help to write the job adverts if you need any help, um,

because I do know it can be really daunting to write a job advert.

Because there's so much to do in a day and then the last thing and that's I

think that's the reason why people rush Rush, um, um, writing the job advert and

then he was like, okay, it's out now.

Let's hope we get some applications through.

And then a few weeks later, it's like nothing.

It's like crickets.

And he's like, oh, it's not working.

Okay.

It's like, you know, and, uh, I just think like, okay, I'm sure your job

advert wasn't that good that it managed to reach the right target audience.

But, um, having said that, um, when I, earlier, when I mentioned you could

also advertise on your social media.

Or on your own website, obviously that requires that you're fairly active on

the social media site and not just have a debt account basically, and just post

one, one, you basically do one post and then think, okay, I've done my job.

Let's wait and see, like the algorithm will let you go through that, you

know, and people might not even see it.

So again, if you do social media, do like do several posts, not

just like one, and then think.

You've done your job.

So you've got to be on that one.

And if you've got a website where maybe you don't get that many monthly

visitors on, the chance that there will be a job seeker is very slim.

So you need to do various things to attract the right people.

So definitely do your website, do social media, try job boards?

as well.

As I said, you have to trial, um, and then Use your network and if you're

genuinely struggling, then you could reach out to a recruiter as well,

who focuses across architecture.

Again, you have to be aware that it's not the cheapest option, but

it could make all the difference.

Like, do you want to lose the project or, you know, or do you need to

find the right person for the job?

So you really have to think about all the pros and cons though.

That's for sure.

I think perhaps one of the things for practice owners to bear in mind

is, um, I guess it's that balance of time versus money that if you've, you've got

a little bit more time and not so much funds to recruit this member of staff,

then there's a lot that you can do without having to spend an awful lot of money.

And as you mentioned earlier, that, um, Those architecture specific job boards

that they have got the right audience.

It's not just like a generic job board for, for all sorts of different jobs.

It's specific to our industry.

But the other side being that if you just need to find the right candidate

and you need to find them quickly and you don't have time to do all

of that, then that's perhaps when.

you know, seeking out a recruitment agency might be the better

option in that case, I guess.

What details do job seekers want?

What do they want to know before they actually hit the

apply button for that job?

That's a really good question.

So I think it's fairly clear that people want to know what's the

job title, what's the practices.

Obviously, if it's recruitment, then you won't know because they

won't want you to contact them.

But, um, Tell them a little bit about your company, who you are, your location,

like you have to tell us where you are, because, for example, I can't

drive, so I would have to check, can I take public transport, how long will

it take me, before I even apply to a position where I know it will take

me two hours to get to your office, like, It's clearly a no go for me.

Then, um, the responsibilities.

That's what they want to know.

Like, what would they be doing?

What sort of projects would they be working on?

What are the requirements?

Obviously sometimes you need to have conservation experience or you

need to have experience on working on large scale residential schemes.

You need to have certain software abilities.

Another thing they want to That is something, it's like my pet hate when

they, when, um, companies talk about salaries and all they say is competitive.

Do you know what?

I think that's most likely not competitive.

So I would highly recommend stop using competitive salaries because

it's not competitive most likely.

And then, um, they want to know about the benefits.

So do you work, uh, offer hybrid working, um, flexible working?

That's really important.

And that is one, one way to actually stand out these days.

Like a lot of practices actually kind of go backwards again,

which is just mind blowing to me.

So you'll be lucky to find a practice which offers three days

working from home because a lot of went, went back to like I then.

Working from home.

I'm not working from home at all, or I need like two days a week.

And they want to know about the holidays because they will have families.

You know, they want to know, can we go take like a two week holiday?

Can we go do this?

Can we do that?

And um, and then, They want to know about in order, like, what

do you want them to apply with?

Do you want a CV?

Do you want a sample portfolio?

Do you want a cover letter?

And then just an easy, really easy way, like, okay, this is if you want

to apply, send your information to this email address to Emily, for example, and

submit your documents or just click here.

This will take you to our application system.

So, um, the internal recruitment system, which is Usually a bit long winded.

But it's just, people just want to know what they're applying to.

And I think a lot of people will not apply to a position

if they don't know the salary.

People are very picky these days and they will not go through the

entire process without knowing what's even the starting salary.

Because a lot of, let's say there's an architect, he's currently on like 36, 000.

If it says competitive salary, again, means nothing to anyone.

And then all of a sudden you go through the entire interview process and they're

like, Oh, we would really like you.

We offer you 35, 000.

And you're like, you kidding me?

I went through two, three stages to, so you offer me less than I'm on right now.

It's a hard no.

So you're not only wasting your own time, but you're also

wasting the candidate's time.

And the candidate will not be happy about that.

They will probably talk to their colleagues or their network and it could

have a really bad impact on like just ruining your reputation a little bit.

So I'll be very, very careful with that.

And before you say like competitive salary, do your research on what

the current rates are anyway.

Remember.

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Now, back to the show.

That's really good advice.

It's a little while since I've been looking for a job myself, but I do

obviously come across job ads and, and see them advertised online.

And I just think it's just such a joke that.

There's so many that advertise that there's no clear indication

of what the salary is.

And that's going to be one of the key things that people want to

know about when they're applying.

You know, is this, is this a good fit for me or not?

And a lot of it is based on how much money they need to pay the bills.

So yeah, I think don't be afraid to put a, a salary band on there and

actually be a bit clearer about it.

Definitely.

I've got a couple of theories why people don't do it.

Because, um, it's usually known that men will negotiate

their salaries, whereas women.

They, they don't, they normally accept and I really hope to see a change in that one.

So normally if they're like two, three architects, they

might have different salaries.

So basically the practice is already messed up in my eyes where you should

just give everyone the same salary.

Normally sometimes you see like, yeah, um, salary is upon

negotiation, like that's not great.

That already shows me that everyone will be paid differently.

So maybe that is something, especially if you're small practices or you're

just starting out, don't get into the habit, be clear on salaries.

And I tell you one thing, it will make your life so much

easier once you grow as well.

And it will be, it's just, it's all about transparency.

And I think people really appreciate that these days.

Absolutely.

I do the thing I was just wondering actually, is that terms of the

content, we've, we've talked about.

A lot of the content that we should, we should include and the

things that they need to know.

I was just wondering actually about if there's any things that maybe

is that we shouldn't put on there.

And I was just thinking about sometimes, you know, when you see these, these

job ads that have like this, you mentioned earlier in the conversation

about this, like they're looking for a unicorn cause there's like so many

different requirements on there.

You know, does it get to a point where maybe our expectations of employees is

a bit too high as employers in terms of the mandatory list of things that

we expect them to be able to do and the qualifications or software skills?

Can it, can it get a bit much on some of those job ads that you've seen before?

100%.

I think there's a rule of thumb, um, in terms of

responsibilities and requirements.

Always use bullet points because people just want to skim through it

just to see like, am I'm actually qualified for the position?

And never use more than seven bullet points on each because

if not, it gets too daunting.

It won't help you at all, like, it will just be so daunting that, that

people think, oh, I don't have this, I don't have that, I will not get

the job anyway, so I won't apply.

And I think as a practice owner, you really have to think about

like, okay, what do we actually need and what can we teach them?

So don't just expect just because someone left that they would

have to do the exact same job.

You know, they've probably done a lot, you know, so don't expect that you

can just fill the same shoes again.

You really have to kind of look back and just think, okay, this is what we need.

And then, but you have to be really open minded and just help

people, like train them up as well.

Like, they're so talented, you know, people are there to learn.

And I think sometimes people are just a bit like, you know, very

narrow minded and say, Okay, we need at least 10 years experience.

Eight years is not enough.

We need exactly this.

And I was like, Oh my God.

God, it's like, why are you doing this to yourself?

Like, I bet you don't get the right sort of applications whatsoever

because it's just so daunting and people will not apply for it.

Yeah, a lot of the ads can be quite prescriptive, can't they?

With the huge list of job requirements.

I suppose.

Maybe in my mind, the exception to the rule would be perhaps if it was like a

really short term contract, where you literally just need somebody that does

have this requisite number of skills for a particular project that they're coming

on board for, where as a practice, you're not going to You're not going to have

the time then to invest in training them.

Whereas if it's any longer term role, or if it's a permanent position, and

it absolutely makes sense to just, you know, keep an open mind to that list

and try and rein yourself in a little bit with those job requirements and to

support them and train them and help mold them into that role once, you

know, once they get started, um, okay.

If so, someone's going to write a job at.

They're going to write the job ad, but they've never written a job ad before.

Do you have a structure that you'd recommend that they use?

Yeah.

So, um, normally, like, first line should be the name of your practice,

what's the job title, and then where's the location, because, again, job

title and location are super important.

And just one thing to keep in mind, just never make up any job titles, please.

I think within architecture it's quite clear, you're either a

senior architect, you're a project architect, you're a technologist.

So don't be clever.

Make up any, any names, please.

And, and then just, normally what I like to see is just a little

bit about the company, just what you guys are working on.

And then, Just about the position, so about the role, so just tell the

candidate, like, you will be working on this, like, you'll be doing this, like,

you, um, will work in using Revit, for example, you would, you'll be going on

site visits and everything, and then, just like a drop down and not a drop

down, but basically just bullet points of like what the requirements are.

So do you need to be ARB registered?

Do you need to have three years post qualification?

Do you need to have record skills?

Should you have any healthcare like previous healthcare experience or not?

And just keep that down to like a minimum, maybe just seven

obviously UK building regulations.

That's always a really popular one.

And then just all about salary and benefits, please.

So do not skip that part.

And then just the last bit, just how to apply.

If you're interested in this position, please submit your CV and your sample

portfolio, like ideally like under 10 megabytes, to this email address.

And that's pretty much it, to be honest.

I always say keep it, like, under between, like, 300 and 600 words.

Don't make it too long.

And, but don't make it too short.

I've seen some really short ones where I think that look more like a tweet.

You know, where I'm just like, can we get some more information, please?

Like, I don't even know what I'm implying to.

And, um, yeah.

So, that's literally it.

So, it's not, it's not difficult.

Just be really clear.

And just tell the candidate what they can expect and if they're interested,

they will go on your website and look at your, the project you're working on.

But you have to sell it to them.

You have to make it sound like this is really exciting and you should join

us and not basically the competitor.

So you need to kind of check out what others are doing as well, I think.

Just keep an

That's brilliant.

And that's, that structure that you've, you've shared with us, that

just makes it really super simple.

And, uh, that's something simple and actionable that people can do.

So that's absolutely fantastic.

Thanks for sharing that.

What are some things that practice owners might forget or not pay attention to?

I think they underestimate the effort goes into

applying for a job these days.

So if you are asking for cover letter as well as a CV and a portfolio and something

else, then that's a lot of effort.

And most people, especially the passive job seekers who are not

actively looking and just looking for the right opportunity, they

will probably not go for it.

You know, because you're making this so difficult and so time consuming.

So just keep in mind that it's pretty much a full time job

to look for a job these days.

You know, there's so many different, um, job boards and, um, you've got

different channels where you might, um, ask them to apply through as well.

So just keep that in mind.

Just keep in mind, don't, don't just ask for everything.

So if you don't, if you know you don't read a cover letter, don't ask

them to send a cover letter, please.

Because people actually really dislike writing cover letters.

And I'll bet that most people don't read it anyway.

And I would also say, um, don't ask people for their salary expectations.

I think that's a really unfair question because what they're on right now doesn't

mean they Like this should be like the base level of what you can offer them

same time the job They're doing free.

Well the job you're offering might be completely different.

So it might be more responsibilities so I think asking that question is quite is

unfair and Let's say what would happen if I'd say oh, I want 45 K You know,

like, what if they already say, oh, that's too high, we're not going to?

interview her.

So, I think you just, it's just a recipe for disaster.

Instead, tell the candidates what the salary range is, and then they can check.

Is this worth it?

Am I already on that salary?

You know, and then you're not wasting your time and not the candidates time.

That is what I would suggest.

That's brilliant.

Thanks, Aileen.

Just to kind of sum things up, I guess, we've, we've rattled through quite a

lot of information there for people.

So I'm, I'm sure it's going to be really helpful.

But what would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to take

away from this conversation?

I think what I like them to take away from it is job adverts do work.

You just have to spend a little bit of time, even if the first one does not work,

look at it again and just try it again.

You know, just don't be, it's like a negative experience, right?

But just get over that fact.

And you could also ask your, your teams like, okay, I've written a job advert.

Would you apply to that?

Or is this like, not what we are?

Like, or have I missed anything?

Or do you think I could do, we could change anything?

And just be a bit more open minded.

And, and don't forget, the better you get at it, like it's, I appreciate it's

not something you do every single day.

Like most people don't, right?

But, um, really just invest the time.

And don't rush it.

And just do it.

invest writing a good job advent because it will work.

I'll tell you that much.

As long as you've got all the details we've talked about, about

the salary, about the benefits and, and you're just nice and

transparent, I'm sure it will work.

So, um, yeah, don't give up, please.

Great advice.

Um, Was there anything, was there anything else that you wanted to add that we

haven't covered in the conversation?

Probably we've covered so much and I hope that people are,

um, not like, Oh, this was a lot.

But yeah, please don't look for unicorns and give people a chance as well because

people are more than happy to learn.

And you should just invest into the staff, into your staff as well.

And yeah, that is pretty much what I would say, um, to, to that one really.

I totally agree.

So now it's time for me to ask my regular question that I like to

ask all of the guests on the show.

So I, I love to travel and discover new places.

So could you tell me one of your favorite places and what you love about it?

So, I love mountains, and my partner and I, we, when we go skiing,

we're in the French Alps, and there's this one particular spot, it's like,

to the left, it's the Mont Blanc, and then to the right, it's just the Alps.

And it's like, just the French Alps, and it's just my happy place.

It's so quiet, uh, and it's just absolutely stunning.

So, um, I think that it's my absolute favourite place, to be honest.

Because it's just so, um, I think it's just so unique, to be honest, to

have that sort of, just the views onto the Mont Blanc and the French Alps.

I can't really complain about that.

You know, I, it's somewhere I've always wanted to go.

I've, um, I've not.

Yeah, I've not been to the French Alps before I've been to a few other

kind of mountainous areas in Europe.

I've been to the Julian Alps in Slovenia, and I've been to briefly to

Austria to a couple of areas there.

But yeah, I do love the mountains and I'm actually going to be.

Heading off to Wales, uh, in a few weeks to do some mountain walking.

So we'll fingers crossed.

We get some decent weather for it.

British weather.

It's unpredictable as ever.

Eileen, thanks you so much for coming on the show today and sharing

your expertise with everybody.

I've really enjoyed chatting with you.

Could you remind everyone the best place to connect with you online?

Yeah, so I'm quite active on LinkedIn, and it's actually just Eileen

Round, and I actually think I'm the only one with that name on LinkedIn, so.

I'm sure you'll

Okay.

And could you, could you spell your first name for the listeners as well, please?

Yeah, of course.

So it's A Y L I

N.

And, um, I'll make sure that we put that in the show notes.

And do you want to remind everybody about your website address as well?

Yeah, so that is arcjobs.

co.

uk.

And there you'll find quite a lot of different articles as well?

So if you need any more help in terms of the writing a job advert,

I've actually got everything there for you to look at as well.

Oh, that's awesome.

Thanks so much.

Thank you so much.

for having me, John.

Next time I'll be discussing the benefits of mentoring

with architect, Chris Simmons.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of architecture business club.

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Remember.

Running your architecture business.

Doesn't have to be hard and you don't need to do it alone.

This is architecture business club.