[00:00:00] Eric Goranson: It's around the

[00:00:06] Spencer Sheehan: house. It involves, uh, the passing off of birch cabinets as napal. And these issues came to my attention through, uh, various, uh, decisions and in investigation by the Commerce Department at the behest of the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturer's Association into the dumping of. Chinese cabinets below cost in the US market to the detriment of cabinet manufacturers in America and American jobs.

[00:00:42] Spencer Sheehan: And during this investigation, as the Department of Commerce sought to gather information about the extent of the dumping taking place, um, by China

[00:00:55] Intro: when it comes

[00:00:56] Spencer Sheehan: to remodeling and renovating

[00:00:58] Eric Goranson: your home, there is

[00:00:59] Spencer Sheehan: a lot to know, [00:01:00] but

[00:01:00] Intro: we've got you covered. This is. On the house.

[00:01:04] Eric Goranson: Welcome to The Round the House Show.

[00:01:06] Eric Goranson: This is where we talk everything about your home every single week. Thank you for joining us. You know, I've got a special guest here in the studio. You know, this was kind of interesting. Let me preface this. When I see something pop up on social media where people are asking the right questions, and of course I'm like, Alright, we got to dive into this and figured out cuz we're getting into a passion of.

[00:01:26] Eric Goranson: And of course when I see that we gotta get into a little more information itself. I wanna jump in here. Spencer Sheen, checking out the cabinet industry right now. Welcome to Around the House, man.

[00:01:37] Spencer Sheehan: Thank you Eric for having me.

[00:01:40] Eric Goranson: This is great, man. Thanks for taking the time. You know, I'm cruising through my social media and you know, this post just came up as one of the sponsored posts and I'm like, Whoa.

[00:01:48] Eric Goranson: What is this about the cabin industry and you know, being in the industry for 30 years, it's something that I have a passion about, you know, and there was this paperwork that I saw that came around here, oh, six months [00:02:00] ago or so, and I read, but I didn't read in the detail that you did, and you caught some super important details.

[00:02:07] Eric Goranson: You. And, you know, you and I were talking about this before we, uh, you know, got on the radio here today, but it's, it's kinda like when somebody's out there investigating a murder, like it's a police or something, and this is not like a murder, so I don't wanna compare those two, but they're focused on that case and they don't realize that as they're going through that case, maybe there's this parking lot scam issue that they ran into going on the side, but they're so focused on the murder case.

[00:02:32] Eric Goranson: The parking lot scam is over on the side. That's a big deal on its own, but they're there to investigate a murder. You know, your dive here, you figured out something very interesting.

[00:02:43] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, yeah. This, this was something, um, that, uh, while obviously not rising to the level of a murder, uh, was nonetheless important and is important and it involves, uh, the passing off of.

[00:02:59] Spencer Sheehan: Birch [00:03:00] cabinets as maple and these issues came to my attention through, uh, various, uh, decisions and an investigation by the Commerce Department at the behest of the kitchen cabinet manufacturers. Association into the dumping of Chinese cabinets below cost in the US market to the detriment of cabinet manufacturers in America and American jobs.

[00:03:30] Spencer Sheehan: And during this investigation, as the Department of Commerce sought to gather information about the extent of the dumping taking place, um, by China, . And when they were gathering the, uh, data from the Chinese manufacturers, they discovered that almost all of the cabinets that were being sold to American, uh, companies as maple were actually all [00:04:00] birch.

[00:04:00] Spencer Sheehan: And I was quite surprised at this, and I started to look a little closer and sure enough that's, you know, um, You know, Right. Right there in front of you and there's no denying it. And you know, it's something that in my, uh, efforts to get more information about this from the participants, uh, Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association and various, uh, large cabinet companies, nobody really, um, you know, would respond to me or, you know, just, uh, even acknowledge.

[00:04:38] Spencer Sheehan: What I was looking into. So I'm glad that you thought it was interesting and wanted to discuss it.

[00:04:45] Eric Goranson: You know what's interesting cuz like I've said, I spent a lot of time in the kitchen and bath industry. I've worked for cabin manufacturers, I've worked for, you know, my own design firm. So it's something that I've had really near and dear to my heart and it, it's very interesting.

[00:04:59] Eric Goranson: American hard [00:05:00] rock may pull out, there's a nice cabin wood, right? There's no question though that the Asian or Russian birds that you see shown up. It's clearly not maple, but it sounds like the government was looking at this case over there and all of a sudden they're going, Wow, we show a bunch of birch coming in the back door and wait a minute, all that's disappeared and it's maple coming out the front.

[00:05:20] Eric Goranson: Correct. That, That's

[00:05:22] Spencer Sheehan: exactly right. And it's even more, um, you know, astonishing, or at least it was, is that the, uh, the judge. That was assigned this issue with respect to the dumping of the lower cost Chinese cabinets. Didn't even want to consider, you know, the issue about, uh, whether or not, uh, consumers were deceived.

[00:05:47] Spencer Sheehan: They said basically, you know, uh, or the judge said basically to the commerce department. Why are you even concerned about, you know, consumers being misled? Your job is to, [00:06:00] you know, be concerned about, you know, this investigation, which involves the, uh, , the below cost Chinese cabinets being sold to, uh, you know, in the American market.

[00:06:12] Spencer Sheehan: And I was, you know, disappointed by, by that because you would think that, you know, the, uh, you know, The government would be, uh, you know, encouraged for trying to ferret out this, uh, deception that's, uh, taking place.

[00:06:29] Eric Goranson: Well, Spencer, you know, you have a long history with your company chasing down companies out there that have said, Hey, I'm selling you or marketing you product A, but you're either getting product A minus or maybe even product C, and you've done some pretty big cases.

[00:06:45] Eric Goranson: That

[00:06:45] Spencer Sheehan: is an interest of mine. You're, you're exactly right. And you know, it, it's ha something unfortunately that occurs in any area where, uh, you know, a company is selling something to [00:07:00] others, whether it's selling, um, you know, products, you know, food or beverages or car parts, or, uh, equipment, and it's, you know, often, um, You know, the case where they will sell you something that is maybe a product, um, that's often a lower quality, slightly, but often it's not so significant to make you realize that it is not what it says because if it is, you know, often, you know, the trick and you know, is to make sure that the deception is.

[00:07:40] Spencer Sheehan: As I said, not so significant enough to arouse anybody's suspicion. But if you take that, you know, across, you know, the many transactions and let's say sales that occur in the course of, you know, a year or throughout, you know, our market, [00:08:00] you know, the. the harm is pretty significant because it's a little bit from each person and it goes to basic, uh, you know, fairness.

[00:08:09] Spencer Sheehan: And it's not fair to the companies that are selling, you know, what they are, you know, advertising and, you know, that's something that should, you know, just it is, uh, essential market. Yeah. I mean, there's no reason for it. I mean, people don't deserve that.

[00:08:26] Eric Goranson: It just shouldn't. Yeah. Well, it's something that I've noticed, but you know, I just didn't think of it from that perspective side of it.

[00:08:34] Eric Goranson: I mean, there's companies right now that I can jump online that are major manufacturers out there. I'm just gonna leave it at that, cuz I don't wanna, I don't wanna get into the name calling thing and get into that whole battle, at least right here in the show. But there are major companies out there that are selling chemistry parts that I can look at just in the picture and go, All right, you're calling that maple.

[00:08:55] Eric Goranson: And I can tell you what, that's birch.

[00:08:57] Spencer Sheehan: Well, I'd love if off air you [00:09:00] can, um, tell me a little bit more about that. And, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to get you involved in any name calling and I understand that, but I am grateful for your knowledge of this industry because to the outsider, somebody who doesn't have, you know, basically any experience in the home improvement or cabinetry.

[00:09:21] Spencer Sheehan: Areas, Um, it's useful to have somebody who can, you know, help you and show you, um, a little bit more about things from the inside. Knowledge that I never get on

[00:09:31] Eric Goranson: my. Have you subscribed to the podcast? Make sure you have and we'll be right back after these important messages with Spencer. We got a lot more to talk about when around the house

[00:09:41] Intro: returns.

[00:09:55] Intro: What's up? This is Dick hand Satchel.

[00:09:58] Eric Goranson: Steel Panther

[00:09:59] Intro: and [00:10:00] you are listening to Around the House with Eric G. Yeah,

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[00:10:06] Intro: you should too.

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[00:10:18] Intro: try again. Welcome back

[00:10:22] Eric Goranson: to the Round the House Show. Now, you know, we've been diving into this consumer protection thing here because to me it's a big. And if you're buying something and you're getting something else, I don't like that. Even when it's in the industry that I worked in for nearly 30 years.

[00:10:36] Eric Goranson: So let's get back to Spencer and talk about how some people are buying maple cabinets, but they're actually getting birch. You know, that's what's interesting with cabinetry, and I know if one of our listeners is sitting here going, Oh, birch maple, who cares? You know, Maple is a premium wood as far as cabinetry, and it's got a lot of really cool aspects to it, you know?

[00:10:57] Eric Goranson: It's like what they make butcher blocks out of [00:11:00] because you know, it's beautiful. It's hard. It doesn't accept stain very well, and that's why they're used as butcher blocks all the time because you can put something on it. There's not any oils or juices that come out of that. Whatever you're cutting, it doesn't like to soak into that block.

[00:11:14] Eric Goranson: But birch on the other hand, it takes stain really. It's a softer wood and one of the problems with it, especially on some of the birch species, is you do a cabinet door out of it. Let's say sometimes it can turn a little green, almost like it's got a grassing on it. There can be some green tinges all over, so it's completely different product.

[00:11:32] Eric Goranson: That's why birch cabinetry, if it's ever used in, well, kitchen of bath cabinets, it's traditionally used as a paint grade material cuz accepts paint super. But you don't really see it stained because it's not as pretty as maple. Otherwise, obviously cabinet manufacturers out there to be going, Hey, we're selling you clear birch cabinets, but they're calling it maple cuz it's more expensive wood and higher quality wood, you know, compared to birch.

[00:11:56] Spencer Sheehan: No, that's, that's exactly right. And [00:12:00] you know, it's basic, uh, question of telling people, you know, the truth about what they're getting. As we discussed, it's, it's impossible for, you know, the end purchaser to, to know this. And even as I mentioned, for the contractors who are selling you this, they, because they don't know, because the origins are, um, obscured from the beginning.

[00:12:25] Spencer Sheehan: I mean, if, if it's coming from, let's say, China and, you know, China's, you know, telling the, uh, the importers into the US that it's, uh, maple. How, um, how is it, you know, the contractor and the, you know, the guy who puts the cabinets in their home going to know that, you know, it's not

[00:12:45] Eric Goranson: maple. You know what's also interesting is it's not just the cabinet fronts.

[00:12:49] Eric Goranson: Door fronts, door fronts, all that stuff, face frames. Maybe it's any of the other stuff you see out there. Many times you'll see the cabinet boxes themselves, right? So you, I can't tell you how many times I've seen with some cabinet [00:13:00] manufacturers, you'll see the units of lumber coming in the back. And plywood coming in, and it'll be Baltic, birch, birch, plywood, multi ply, birch, plywood, whatever you wanna call it.

[00:13:09] Eric Goranson: That's prefinished. But if you grab those sales material out on the brochure, it says Maple Interior. It's not maple, it's birch plywood. So there's a lot of it out there. That's exactly, you know, it's still, when it comes down to, it's not maple, it's birch, but they call it maple and the marketing materials all for the same price.

[00:13:28] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah, yeah. That's, it's, uh, it's unfortunate and it's, you know, just one, uh, more way that. You know, I guess consumers are not, um, you know, and I guess America in general is, is sort of being treated by, um, you know, this global cabinet industry. And that's what the work of the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association is trying to, uh, to stop just the general unfair practices that are going on.

[00:13:57] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, you know, mainly with respect [00:14:00] to the kitchen cabinet. Um, you know, domestic manufacturers because, you know, we all benefit by having, you know, these, uh, manufacturers in this country by, you know, making sure that our products are safe. They don't have, you know, the poor Malahide Meine and, you know, all these other toxic chemicals that, uh, you know, may be used in China that, you know, can have long term health consequences when they're used in, you know, American home.

[00:14:29] Spencer Sheehan: And also, you know, just to have, you know, jobs in, in our communities. So it's an important issue across the board.

[00:14:37] Eric Goranson: Well, I wanna jump into the K cma, the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association here for a second. Are there brands that you've run into now with, uh, this core paperwork that, uh, you know, people might be scratching their heads going, you know, it showed up in the paperwork from the government, Maybe brands we should be talking.

[00:14:54] Spencer Sheehan: That's a great, uh, question and I can answer that [00:15:00] partly. Um, the investigation was, uh, mainly focused on, uh, one particular company that, um, you know, the Commerce Department was, uh, looking into and that company, um, was called, and his name will probably have very little meaning to. You know, American contractors, Dion Mason, Woodworking.

[00:15:26] Spencer Sheehan: Now, I, I believe that's a, you know, a Chinese conglomerate. However, what I tried to figure out what you mentioned is about how does this, you know, filter down to the customers. Well, Dion Mason Woodworking is connected or somehow affiliated with a company called j and k Cabinet. They're a familiar brand.

[00:15:50] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah. Yeah. J and k cabinetry. Right. That, you know, they have a lot of, um, you know, um, I guess locations. And I [00:16:00] think, uh, we had previously discussed, at least ostensibly on the surface, they say that, well, they just sell to contractors or something. And, um, generally, you know, while they may sell to individuals, generally, um, j and k is, they don't sell to, you know, the average consumer in the same way that like a Home Depot might.

[00:16:22] Spencer Sheehan: You know, most people who get cabinets, they might have a contractor. You know, get in, the contractor will get it from j and k. Um, so it's, it's challenging for, you know, somebody to know, uh, well are my cabinets from j and k? Because how, you know, when you buy cabinets, you know, you might get maybe, um, an invoice or something from, you know, the, uh, the contractor, but.

[00:16:50] Spencer Sheehan: How are you gonna know that, you know, they came from J and k, I haven't, you know, seen such cabinets. Um, if they would, you know, maybe have an [00:17:00] imprint on 'em, a marking that says do they

[00:17:03] Eric Goranson: sometimes cabinet manufacturers, And I don't know specifically if j and K is. But I'll do a little research. I'll ask around.

[00:17:09] Eric Goranson: I know a lot of people you know in this industry, cause I've done it forever, but, and it's not gonna show up in this episode, but I'll do some research. But many times cabin manufacturers will try to market their brand. So they'll put maybe right, you know, a sticker or stamp on the side of the drawer box, or they'll put a K CMA logo or some other logo like that underneath the sync base cabinet, you know, It could, you know, then that K CMA logo says that it's certified and it meets their standards.

[00:17:34] Eric Goranson: So even sometimes you'll find it maybe on the bottom of a drawer box. So you take the drawer out, pop it over, and there'll be a sticker in there.

[00:17:41] Spencer Sheehan: You're exactly right. And that's the type, Yeah, those are the places. But heck, I, I cert It's like finding the serial number on your tv . Oh man. Which is something I, I dread having to do when I had to do this for my dad to recently.

[00:17:57] Spencer Sheehan: You have to, you. Go [00:18:00] behind the TV is scary. You know, you have that, that nest of wires and dust kicking up there. You need to wear like a, a mask because of

[00:18:09] Eric Goranson: all the dust. Like an electron microscope to read that tiny laser

[00:18:13] Spencer Sheehan: Brit. Right, exactly. And you know, now, yes, technically, you know, you could probably find.

[00:18:19] Spencer Sheehan: Um, information somewhere through the settings, but if you've ever, you know, played with a, uh, a smart TV or any tv,

[00:18:26] Eric Goranson: if you want to contact me, head over to around the house online.com and you can hit the message button right there and it'll go right into my inbox. And I'll get back with you around the house or return just after these important messages.

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[00:19:05] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to The Round the House Show. Now we've been talking about some consumer protection issues, especially when it comes to cabinetry. Now let's get back to the

[00:19:13] Spencer Sheehan: conversation, but it will often be in a sticker format.

[00:19:17] Spencer Sheehan: Um, you know, seldom it might be imprinted on there. , I don't think that, you know, the typical, uh, you know, cabinet user is going to easily find that mm-hmm. so they're not, you know, really gonna know. And, you know, for somebody, Look, uh, you know, I'm sure though that there are people who, you know, care about these things and they do know that, Oh yeah, my cabinet.

[00:19:43] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, installer, you know, purchased the cabinets that used in our kitchen from J and k, uh, you know, distributor. And J and k has distributors or sort of, um, affiliates all throughout the country. There is mm-hmm. . [00:20:00] Dozens. Dozens of them. And this was the main company identified in the, uh, the legal proceedings.

[00:20:07] Spencer Sheehan: I suspect like many things. You know, this is just the tip of the iceberg, meaning that, um, it might be what we see, but. If this is something that one company is uh, doing, then I'm sure that it's something that's, uh, prevalent. Yeah. And it so happens that, uh, Dion Mason Woodworking and it's Jane K affiliates is what showed up on, on the radar.

[00:20:36] Spencer Sheehan: I don't know exactly. Let's say the number of significant, um, cabinet exporters to the usr, Perhaps you might be able to figure that out. I'm guessing that there aren't that many, um, you know, of the big, you know, big companies in China that, that do it. I would say a handful, probably. I don't,

[00:20:59] Eric Goranson: Yeah, there's a [00:21:00] handful 'em out there, but there's a lot of people like J and k and I think there's other people from these guys that they distribute to as well, You know?

[00:21:08] Eric Goranson: Uh, there's a lot of other big companies out there that import cabinetry into the us. It's made in China. Uh, one of the other companies you see out there is like, uh, Cabinets to Go, for instance. Uh, they import most of their stuff last time I looked, if not all of it, they're another company that you see that brings in a boatload of stuff from China.

[00:21:26] Spencer Sheehan: No, that's, that's exactly right. And um, you know, it's, you know, they're sort of, um, Yeah, right, right there. And, and you know, whether or not they, uh, market or label their items as, you know, being by j and k, they may not, because a lot of times, you know, with respect to, you know, third party or sort of private, they may, you know, call it a private label or something and you know, the end user will have no idea where the product came from.

[00:21:55] Spencer Sheehan: They'll just know what the label on it or who, you know, manufactured it to [00:22:00] them. And, you know, they'll have no way to know that that was in fact, , you know, um, something produced by Dion Mason and, you know, maybe brought into the US uh, through J and k.

[00:22:13] Eric Goranson: Well, and there's another thing too, and I don't know if these guys, you know, Cabinets to Go specifically is doing long here.

[00:22:19] Eric Goranson: So I wanna preface this. I wanna really seriously preface this, but Cabins to Go is an interesting history. You know, it's easily found, you know, on the internet because, well, even on the Cabins To Go website, the Cabins to Go is founded. In 2008 by Tom Sullivan, Interesting, who's the founder of Lumber Liquidators.

[00:22:38] Eric Goranson: Now you remember Lumber Liquidators had a huge problem and it was seen all over CBS 60 Minutes, where 60 Minutes went overseas into China and found that a bunch of lumber liquidators at the time was bringing in flooring that was stamped, that it was carb compliant. You know, the California Air Resource Board requirements of no formaldehyde were low from aldehyde, and they're having formaldehyde glue put in there, but the boxes were [00:23:00] stamped, carb compliant.

[00:23:01] Eric Goranson: So there was a huge lawsuit over that. And then, uh, Lumber liquidators got in trouble because the task kits they sent out for the formaldehyde came back with a false negative. And so there was a large, you know, just a huge deal over that. And it doesn't take too much to go on the online or research this.

[00:23:17] Eric Goranson: It's out there. So there's no debate on that. Check Google 60 Minutes to a bunch of stories on it. So it's on YouTube, easy to find. But when Lumber Liquidators and him parted ways, he'd already started Cabinets to Go and now he's running cabinets to.

[00:23:30] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah, you know, these practices are endemic and, you know, you, um, fix one problem and, you know, often, you know, there's gonna be another, because unfortunately there's always, um, you know, money to be made by, or just more money to be made by maybe spending a rule here or there.

[00:23:51] Spencer Sheehan: And ultimately the, uh, you know, the price is paid by consumers, whether it's, you know, having flooring. You know, [00:24:00] is made with formaldehyde in contravention. State regulations, which, uh, prohibit it or in, you know, in this instance, um, passing off, you know, cabinets is one species of wood when it's actually a lower species of of wood.

[00:24:16] Eric Goranson: So, and they had another run in with the commerce department as far as using band hardwoods, and I'm gonna paraphrase this again and I, you can find it all on the web, but basically they were buying hardwoods that were not supposed to be exported out of the country. You. To the United States, but that what they're doing is they're taking those exported woods and maybe it's sending 'em to a secondary country.

[00:24:41] Eric Goranson: You know where they weren't paying for exports, so maybe they were sending over religious reasons or whatever. So for instance of, let's go hypothetical on this. Let's say you can't take a species of wood coming outta like Malaysia and send it to the us, but if you send it over to South Korea as a legitimate import [00:25:00] for like religious reasons or something like that, then you import it over to them.

[00:25:04] Eric Goranson: And then you send it over to the US cuz it's legal to send it from South Korea to the US And so you can do a lot of that right now. And unfortunately they were taking a lot of protected woods, you know, in these different countries and they had a big run in with some problems where they had some pretty big vines for them.

[00:25:21] Eric Goranson: Breaking those rules and of course bringing in a legal hardwoods that were not supposed to be used in flooring coming outta those countries.

[00:25:28] Spencer Sheehan: Yes, that is absolutely, um, you know, something that is pretty serious because those regulations are in place to, you know, protect, you know, the various forests and protect the species of wood that, you know, they shouldn't be.

[00:25:44] Spencer Sheehan: Um, , you know, harvesting and using it. And it's just unfortunate when, you know, when that happens. And too often companies, they accept, uh, you know, such penalties and fines and public, uh, outrage as just a [00:26:00] cost of doing business. And it's, it's unfortunate that, that, you know, should be the case.

[00:26:06] Eric Goranson: Well, and so there's a lot of unknowns with this right now, and that's why we're talking about it today.

[00:26:11] Eric Goranson: And you and I can chat more offline about this, that there's a lot that's not suitable for radio podcasts. But I really wanna say that I think if you're a consumer out there and you're looking at your maple cabinets that you know came from one of these companies and you're concerned about it personally, you should do a little more research.

[00:26:27] Eric Goranson: And it's really not that hard to start figuring out what's maple and what's birch. .

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:33] Spencer Sheehan: That, that's really important. And you know, the best way to deal with this is, you know, education and to just, you know, have a look and to, to see, you know, it's possible like most. You know, companies, I believe that everywhere they, they do their best to be honest, to uh, the customers.

[00:26:52] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, but there are times when you know that that doesn't happen. And, you know, if, [00:27:00] um, you know, a consumer or customer is able to, you know, take a look at their cabinets and maybe wants. You know, figure out a little bit more about, you know, their origins, that they should do that. And, you know, part of the, uh, way to do that might be to have a look at the underside of, you know, the cabinets.

[00:27:18] Spencer Sheehan: Although that might be difficult because often cabinets are fixed to walls and, you know mm-hmm. . Um, but you know, you could start by asking, you know, your contractors, where, where is this, uh, from? And, you know, to see if they have any other information that can, uh, tell them about, uh, you know, the providence of these cabinets and, you know, just follow those, uh, bread drums and, you know, see, see where elite.

[00:27:42] Spencer Sheehan: And hopefully, you know, it's a situation where, yeah, the person they paid for, uh, Maple Cabinets and that's what they received. But it's also very likely that, you know, um, that that is not, uh, what, what happened and how, uh, [00:28:00] prevalent it is. Um, it seems to be pretty prevalent. Uh, you know, because from what I've gathered from reading these.

[00:28:08] Spencer Sheehan: Government papers. Dian Mason is, uh, one of the largest exporters.

[00:28:14] Eric Goranson: We'll be back to wrap this up just after these important messages. Don't go anywhere.

[00:28:50] Intro: It's the end of the show. The drinking down people, it's time to go. It's that time again. It's last car. Last call. [00:29:00] That's it. It's the end of the night. Lets call.

[00:29:06] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to the Round the House, Show you to me. It's kind of fun to be able to jump into a subject like this early on and see if we can make a difference.

[00:29:14] Eric Goranson: Now let's get back and talk with Spencer here and wrap up this conversation. It seems

[00:29:18] Spencer Sheehan: to be pretty prevalent. Uh, you know, because from what I've gathered from reading these, uh, government papers, Dian Mason is uh, one of the largest exporters. And j and k cabinetry as, uh, their US affiliate is, uh, quite, uh, entrenched in this market.

[00:29:38] Spencer Sheehan: And as you mentioned, doesn't just sell under its own name, but most likely sells, uh, you know, to other companies who then, uh, re relabel it as, uh, their own. So it's something. Yeah, we don't have all the information. I've been doing my best to try to get it. A lot of the documents are, uh, basically filed [00:30:00] under seal so that, you know, we, we don't have all the information and I've done my best to try to get more information and, uh, certainly that's been helped by your interest

[00:30:11] Eric Goranson: in.

[00:30:12] Eric Goranson: Well, thanks man. And I wanted to touch on this before we, you know, end our conversation for the day. And you know, the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturer's Association, K cma, they're the ones, many times when you open up a cabinet, you'll see their stamp label on the inside of like a sink base that says, This cabinet was certified by K cma.

[00:30:28] Eric Goranson: And most people look at it and go, Ah, who cares? But it meets their standards, which means, and I've worked with cabinet companies that were K CMA certified. And so some of the things that happen is that when you're a certified K CMA cabinet company, K CMA has the right to come in and pull a cabinet randomly off the production line and go test it by seeing how strong the shelf is and all these different things to see if that cabinet meets their criteria.

[00:30:51] Eric Goranson: You know, if it meets that criteria for a certified cabinet so they can show up on a Tuesday morning, and you as a manufacturer have to say up if they grab that third cabinet running down the [00:31:00] line and say, Time to test this one. And it's really cool how they do that, unfortunately, as a manufacturer, Well you now have to build another cabinet.

[00:31:07] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah. And then those types of things are important to ensuring confidence in. You know, this particular market and, you know, it's, it's great that they're able to, uh, to do that. And because in an ideal world, that would be something that's really the province of, uh, the government to do. Uh, but, you know, um, it's hard enough to get, you know, the government to do, um, You know, a lot of things that they should, so we leave it to a private industry to, to do, and it's great that I think that the K CMA is, uh, you know, on top of

[00:31:42] Eric Goranson: that, So now on October 4th, the K CMA released a press release out talking about three companies that resigned from the K CMA over the trade matters of them trying to protect the K CMA members from this illegal dumping, as they called it, and the stuff was coming outta China.

[00:31:58] Eric Goranson: So in this case, the case CMA [00:32:00] came out and said they regard to announce that during its board meeting, That week. American Woodmark Master Brand Cabinets and Cabinet Works Group resigned from the association. And a lot of this, as they're saying, is based upon their fight against these imports from China.

[00:32:14] Eric Goranson: Those are a lot of the big brands that you see in the home centers, including people I've worked with for years. And you know, they actually were at the fall conference. At one of the master brand cabinet company areas. There, they were at StarMark Cabinetry, and I used to be a StarMark dealer years ago, and they had a tour schedule where they're gonna go through the whole factory.

[00:32:34] Eric Goranson: Later in the day they canceled the tour and they're like, Well, we're outta here. We're here for the tour. The board meeting was happening during that fall conference and after the vote, they called it a day. And usually they're jumping on buses and going to tour the place. Really. So Master brand canceled it and the rest of the meeting gets canceled and it's, uh, pretty crazy how that whole thing went

[00:32:56] Spencer Sheehan: down.

[00:32:56] Spencer Sheehan: Yeah. That, that. That's, you know, really interesting [00:33:00] and certainly worth, you know, keeping an eye on as, uh, you know, as things unfold. And it's unfortunate that, you know, companies should want part with the K CMA because they do a lot of good for, um, you know, American cabinet industry and you know, American consumers.

[00:33:16] Eric Goranson: So if you walk into the home centers, you know, great. Now when you walk into a home center like a Home Depot, Lowe's, any one of those places, if you see an American Woodmark, if you see that craft made a lot of the other brands inside those buildings in the cabin departments are guys that just resigned from the K cma.

[00:33:33] Eric Goranson: So it's really interesting. I know that some of these companies, and I can say this cuz I've been there, I've seen it, I've heard it, I've been at the meetings. So this is firsthand knowledge and it's not even anything that they're under a non-disclosure agreement or anything that I've signed, but really a lot of these companies import cut parts for their lower end cabinet lines, So like their base model stuff.

[00:33:56] Eric Goranson: So they can't afford to create those in the United States for that price [00:34:00] point is so the argument they make those parts, they import. Units of the parts that are pre-cut, pre banded, you, all those kind of things are finished overseas and those factories. So I maybe see why they could be influenced to jump away from the K CMA that could get in the way, because those business practices are what they're fighting

[00:34:16] Spencer Sheehan: against that.

[00:34:17] Spencer Sheehan: That's exactly right. And you know, the bottom line, you know, unfortunately for, you know, many of those, uh, companies, You know, comes first and at the, at the detriment of, you know, the American market and American consumers. And it's just a shame. And, you know, it's good that, you know, you're looking into this and you know, you've made it, um, you know, your, you know, business to, uh, you know, to inform custom or to inform, you know, home improvement.

[00:34:47] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, folks about what it is, uh, that's going on in, in this area. So I thank you for that.

[00:34:54] Eric Goranson: You know, Thanks, man. And, uh, you know, I just see a lot of Kama companies out there that are doing the right [00:35:00] thing. There are, you know, most of em are, and I wanna protect those guys because they're doing the right thing in the marketplace.

[00:35:06] Eric Goranson: They're selling products, you know, they, they're saying what they're. They're building a good or decent quality cabinet for a homeowner, and they're advertising what they're making, and I just don't like to have to go peek behind the curtain to see that maybe things aren't being what they're sold at.

[00:35:22] Eric Goranson: That's kind of embarrassing to me as a, as a designer and someone that's been in this industry for about 30 years. Yeah. That, that's not

[00:35:29] Spencer Sheehan: right. That, that should happen. And especially because most of, uh, you know, the companies play by the rules and it's terrible that there are, uh, You know, companies that, that don't, and then that, you know, they make it bad for everyone and it's just, uh, not, not fair.

[00:35:47] Spencer Sheehan: It sort of, uh, causes, you know, trust to be lost across, you know, the industry. And, you know, it's certainly, you know, it's not fair to them, You. .

[00:35:58] Eric Goranson: So if you've got [00:36:00] cabinets that you think is a homeowner or a contractor that you're suspect about, it's pretty easy to get some lab tests done and figure out what wood species you have in your hand.

[00:36:08] Eric Goranson: It's not that hard for a lab to do some research for you when you give 'em a piece and go, Huh? Is that American hard rock maple? or is it not American, hard rock maple and you could start to do your own research. That's

[00:36:19] Spencer Sheehan: exactly right. And you know, they may not even need to do that because, you know, if we, you know, can possibly have a look and see well where, you know, what's the company that that came from and if we can track it down and link it to, you know, the companies identified in the public court documents, then you know, that's a certainly a good, a good starting point and.

[00:36:42] Spencer Sheehan: You know, it's one of the places that, uh, you know, we can maybe get, get some answers to these questions.

[00:36:48] Eric Goranson: Perfect. Spencer, if somebody wanted to read you and they've got these cabinets, or they think they might be concerned at least about having these cabinets, what's the best way for people to find

[00:36:57] Spencer Sheehan: you?

[00:36:58] Spencer Sheehan: Well, thank you for [00:37:00] that. Um, the best way is to. Well send an email, um, to me or to go through, um, the website, spencer sheen.com. It has a submission page where somebody can, uh, submit their information along with their inquiry. Um, and, you know, my email is, uh, L e a ds spencer shehan.com and that's just one of the emails that I use is to manage the inflow of, uh, contacts.

[00:37:30] Spencer Sheehan: Uh, and, you know, just in general that go to my website, spencer shehan.com and, uh, submit their information. And I'd love to hear about somebody's experience and, you know, to help me, uh, get some answers and to help them get some answers too.

[00:37:47] Eric Goranson: And it doesn't matter if you're listening to the National Radio Show of the podcast, you can find me anywhere out there on social media.

[00:37:52] Eric Goranson: Just look up around the House show, or you can find me at around the house online.com and you can send a message over there. It's pretty easy. Either [00:38:00] way, I'll have this information down in the show notes on the podcast if you're listening there as well, so you don't have to worry about stopping and right.

[00:38:06] Eric Goranson: So just make sure each cat's the podcast here, if you're listening on the radio. And that way you're not. Getting yourself in trouble out there, trying to write this information down as you're driving your car. Very good point, Spencer. Thanks for coming in today, man. And uh, keep me up to date on how this goes.

[00:38:20] Eric Goranson: I'm very curious. This is something that I've got my eagle eye on, trying to make sure and see what happens with it, cuz it's a big deal out there. Thank you so

[00:38:27] Spencer Sheehan: much. I hope that, uh, maybe this, you know, will bear some fruit and if you hear anything, you know, don't hesitate to reach out and thank you for giving me the chance

[00:38:37] Eric Goranson: to speak with your audience.

[00:38:38] Eric Goranson: Thanks brother. Well, if you want more information about this, you can head over to around the house online.com and catch the podcast if you're on the radio and you can message me over there and just, uh, hit the contact us page and you'll be good to. That'll come right into my inbox. All right, everybody, have a great weekend.

[00:38:55] Eric Goranson: Thanks for listening to Around the House[00:39:00]