Even in the best of times, many people around the world simply don't have the advantages that make travel accessible.

To go on a trip, whether it's a few days or a few weeks or a few months, you need the luxury of time that can be spent away from work.

You need resources like a passport or a car.

And you need disposable income.

Over the last few years, we've all noticed and felt the impact of growing inflation.

But in the last few months, the economic conditions have become even less stable and there's fear that a recession may be coming.

During economic downturns, the tourism industry typically takes a hit.

People are either nervous to spend money or just don't have the disposable income to put towards travel.

In moments like these, budget travel is on everyone's mind.

Many of us look for ways to quell our travel itch for as little money as possible.

But can we actually do that responsibly?

Today, we're chatting about how during difficult times like these, we can approach budget travel in a mindful way.

Here to discuss is Emma Cartwright, a travel blogger, podcaster, and creator who focuses her work on sustainable and responsible tourism.

This is Curious Tourism, the podcast focused on making travel better for people and the planet.

I'm Erin Hines, travel writer and content creator, and I'm joined by my producer, Katie Lohr.

That is me.

And if you enjoy the show, Aaron and I would love for you to support it in some way, and it's really easy to do.

So first, you can make sure that you're actually subscribed to the show on your favorite podcast app right now.

And second, keep an eye out for all the cool stuff that we're posting on the Internet, all the cool stuff that Aaron's posting on the Internet.

And if you like any of it, send us an email or, or you can review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

And on that note, you can also get in touch with us directly on social media or by email.

All our contact info is in the show notes.

Well, welcome, Emma.

Welcome to Curious Tourism.

Thank you, guys.

It's an honor to be here.

I've been listening to the show, so I'm really excited to talk about this.

And I've been listening to yours and I was on your show a few months ago, I think, like in February maybe, which was awesome.

And for some background, Emma and I have been chatting mainly through threads.

I think threads is where I found you, followed you over on Instagram.

And I just, I love, like, all the content you put out and the thought that goes into your work.

So thank you.

Definitely Follow Emma if you're looking for some more response for sustainable tourism folks to follow on the Internet.

Before we get into our discussion for the day, I wanted to talk a little bit about what's today top of mind in travel news these days.

For me, it's over tourism.

It often is over tourism.

But especially with summer coming in the Northern hemisphere, I think this issue is becoming front and center again.

I'm already seeing lots of articles discussing over tourism, especially in Europe.

So something that I thought was interesting was this article that I came across titled Over Tourism Prompts travelers to rethink 2025 travel plans.

And this article was published by Global Rescue.

And in it they cite a survey which found that 73% of travelers are expressing concern about over tourism and 33% of them say they have personally experienced it.

And more than half plan to avoid overpopulated spots such as France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Thailand, the Netherlands, and Peru.

I thought this was so interesting because it makes me wonder if, like all the coverage of overtourism over the last few years has really seeped into the psyche of the average traveler, which I think is a good thing.

It's a good thing for people to be thinking about this.

The one issue I take with this, and I'm curious your take on it, is how they just named whole countries as places with overtourism.

For example, I'm headed to the Netherlands tomorrow and yes, there is overtourism in the Netherlands, but not the entire country.

Like, there are some regions of the country that are not experiencing it and are happily welcoming tourists.

So it was a bit of a generalization to name that.

And that just makes me a bit worried that people are getting the cliff notes about over tourism without learning the nuances of it.

I'm curious your thoughts on this, Emma.

I completely agree with you.

I think over tourism is a very nuanced topic that people are literally taking a full sledgehammer approach to and just being like, okay, we need to boycott these places.

For example, you mentioned France.

France is actually really good at dealing with tourism.

Yes, Paris is obviously quite busy and there are places on the south coast, but in general they've got an amazing system and they've got a lot of tourism locally as well.

So a lot of locals go and visit other places in France.

And then when we're talking about, like you said, entire countries, I actually saw an article about this and I got so mad that I wrote to people who wrote the article and I Said, this is really irresponsible because they had basically said they'd called it like a never go here list or something like that.

Like the.

The permanent blacklist, I think it was called.

And it was Bali.

I know.

And it was like Bali and places in Thailand, maybe Puket.

And it had this like, list of places where it was saying you should never go here because they're really suffering from overtourism.

And I thought, my God, we've lost all of the nuance from this issue because you cannot just do that and essentially strip locals of the right to a decision of whether or not they accept tourists.

And it's interesting too, seeing how it's seeping into online culture as well, because recently I saw someone posting really emphatically about how they don't travel to Europe and it's immoral to travel to Europe because of over tourism.

And I was just like, this is just a sweeping generalization and let's not make this stuff a moral issue.

Like, sure, there's like morality involved, but everyone has a different degree of access to information and we can't expect everyone to like, understand the nuances of this.

Like, let's just spread awareness and not judge, please.

So it's like worrisome to me to see those kinds of narratives erupting.

And it makes me like, literally the other day I thought to myself, oh my gosh, are people going to judge me for going to the Netherlands in May because it's almost high season?

Like, I literally thought that.

I was like, oh gosh, like, people are going to be upset, but, like, my family lives there.

Like, I have to go.

It is so interesting that you notice this is coming up online a bunch because I've also noticed this.

This is seems to be like a trending topic online right now.

Not even people in the, like the travel space, but a lot of locals too.

Like, I saw a ton of this content when it comes to Japan, and I saw a video of a woman who lives there saying, like, all the over tourism taxes are like, coming into play soon for travelers.

Like, here's what you need to know.

And it's kind of across the board.

And I was wondering, is this just my algorithm?

Maybe because I'm in the travel space, but it definitely seems like a trending topic right now.

Yeah.

And one that I saw was Hawaii, and it was actually a local posting at Ntami and it was on threads, which threads does sometimes lose the nuance because it's so short form.

But they were basically saying, we the Hawaiians are asking for you not to come, stop coming.

And it was quite shocking to me because I was like, okay, so are there like no areas where they are welcoming tourists?

And I tend to listen to locals, I know you guys do as well and like, try and get their feedback.

So if entire local populations are saying, do not come here, obviously that's really different from like what you were talking about, Erin, with these just labeling entire countries as over touristed.

But then where do we get, like, where do we go with that information?

You know, one person can't speak for the entire country.

I think it's really important to like, look to multiple sources to get a sense of what the feeling is versus just trusting, like one person that you see posting on threads.

And I do think it's also important to remember, like, this needs to be reevaluated at the moment.

Hawaii for the last few years has.

There are multiple sources saying we really are not welcoming tourists at this time.

That doesn't mean it's going to be like that forever.

Because I sometimes see people react like really emotionally to this.

And it doesn't have to be forever.

They may be focusing on building infrastructure to support tourism in the future.

Things change.

It won't always be that way.

And so I think it's important that people remember that.

That's the whole point of asking people not to come is like, hey, can we, can you give us a break?

Yeah, we need to reset before we welcome people back.

Yeah.

Interestingly, last little tidbit I'll add to this, I also read that Venice has expanded their daytripper tax.

So as of April 18, so it's now in effect, they are charging non overnight visitors an entry fee of 5 to 10 Euro, depending on how early they make their booking.

And it only applies to the 54 high traffic days between April and July 27, which is more than last year.

But yeah, people get really upset about tourist taxes.

But I do feel like in this scenario it makes sense as long as they're using those funds for good things that will help support tourism.

I don't know.

What do you think, Emma?

Yeah, I agree.

I think there's a lot of chat about tourist taxes being elitist, but I think at the end of the day, we have to acknowledge that it is a privilege.

It is a privilege to travel, like in itself.

So if you have that privilege, then it's not that much more on top.

And as you say, they often do use the taxes for really good things, especially in the case of Venice.

I know they have some Good initiatives.

So, yeah, and this is a day tripper tax, which I think is very different than like a general tourist tax, because it's saying, okay, you're not spending a night here, you're not going to be eating your dinner here.

Booking a place to stay, it means you're not spending as much money as like ideally you would as a tourist visiting a place.

And so they're just asking for 5, maximum €10 to help infuse some more support for the community in this scenario.

I think it makes total sense.

Okay, so I know you brought something to chat about as well.

Yeah, so this is semi unrelated to our episode, I suppose, but something I've been seeing more and more on the rise on my social media, which kind of prompted me to do my own deep dive.

And I ended up listening to a really insightful podcast about kind of the philosophy behind it.

Is slum tourism hugely controversial topic.

The concept of going into a low kind of socioeconomic area within a city, a slum, a township, a ghetto.

Like, it's got lots of different names and essentially just walking around and looking at what people do there, which is, as I say, very controversial from what I've been hearing and obviously from what I think myself, massively exploitative.

Doesn't really make its way in terms of finances back to the people there much at all.

But for some reason it's become a trending topic.

It seems to be hugely on the rise.

And I find this, especially the podcast I was listening to, very interesting because it was kind of talking about the philosophy.

Even if we go way back in history and what philosophers think is kind of human mindset on these things, it's a nature to be curious.

Obviously you guys know that from this podcast.

But how we shouldn't be using other people to satisfy our curiosities.

And I definitely think that that's something that is worth bearing in mind before thinking about one of these kind of tours.

Oh, definitely.

This is actually a topic we've wanted to cover for so long.

A couple months ago I got an email, a very long and insightful email from a listener.

And I just pulled it up because I remembered the subject line being really good.

And the subject line was where does deep travel end and poverty tourism be?

And this was just such a fantastic, like, email, just filled with like this person's thoughts on what they'd witnessed in their travels when it comes to slum tourism and poverty tourism.

And in replying to that email, I did find like, it was a very complex topic, which is why I'VE been afraid to unpack it because.

Yeah, like, because people argue.

Right.

You are still bringing tourism to the area.

So, like, some people would make the argument, okay, if you're going into like a slum and you're spending money and you're taking time to learn about the people who live there, the things that they're doing there, then potentially there's a good side to this.

I've seen this argument made quite a lot.

I'm sure you've heard the debates over.

Let me look it up.

Dharavi.

Yeah, I see it on TikTok all the time.

People arguing about Dharavi, Islam, whether you should go or not.

And it's for that reason, because I know that there is a tour that operates there that people argue is like a good tour because it's about educating you about the communities within Dharavi, how they're making money, like the industries that exist within it.

So, yeah, like, to be honest, I don't really have like a thought on this because I just haven't unpacked it in enough detail yet.

But I think it's important for people to think about this.

And we talk about this all the time on the show.

But before doing something like this on your travels, think about your why, like, why do you want to have this experience?

What is this experience bringing to you and what is it bringing to the community?

I think taking a step back and considering these things before booking a tour like that or independently traveling into slum is really important.

I'm genuinely surprised to hear that it's on the rise.

And on that note, why is that?

Do you have any insights on that, Emma?

Yeah, I like when I say I did a deep dive.

My God, it's been like three days of just me reading.

I get very into these topics.

But anyway, they might call that doom scrolling.

Emma.

No doom scrolling with like scientific articles and stuff.

Like, I went way too deep.

Love this.

But one of the things that kind of made my mind up is that at the moment, like, the money just isn't reaching the communities that it needs to.

Like, even the Dharavi slums, there are no known examples where the local people are like actually benefiting so much, which is for me, that's huge.

If we're not putting that money into the community, then essentially we're just going to gawk.

With regard to what you said, Katie, I think it's on the rise because there are more of these tours popping up.

I don't know if you guys know this, but I've Spent quite a lot of time on my travels in Africa, East Africa, South Africa and parts of Northern Africa.

I used to live in Tanzania.

So these are places that I go back to to visit friends and family and have a lot of connections there.

And I had never heard of slum tourism.

And now every time I look up, like tours in Kenya or tours in South Africa, a tour pops up.

And I think there are more and more people within these areas who are thinking, hey, like, maybe I could benefit from this.

And while that's kind of a good thing, it then I think that's why they're on the rise to something.

Wow.

So it's late stage capitalism.

The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer.

A lot of them are run, especially in like, Britain, Brazil, South America, Paraguay, that kind of thing.

In, like, favelas and that sort of thing.

They're run by kind of vigilante, I guess we would call it, like mafia groups.

So a lot of the money doesn't get.

Yeah.

Doesn't get where it's meant to be going at all.

But I mean, as I say, I don't live in one of these areas, so I can't speak from any sense of, like, actual knowledge.

It's just the research that I've done.

This is what, like, muddled it for me for Dharavi.

Right.

Because I had read that the people operating this tour were from Dharavi.

And so then my question was, okay, are they using this tour to actually.

Because they actually do want to educate people and they want to bring this money into the community.

But like you say, it's hard to find the answers to these questions unless you go and speak to this tour operator.

And I haven't found any sources that do.

It's very ethically murky as well, because I think often it starts with very altruistic intentions of people being like, I want to get my family or my community out of poverty.

And from the tourist perspective as well, I'm not one of these black and white people that believes, like, the tourists who are going are just evil people who want to, like, you know, peer through windows and whatnot.

It's just.

It's just ethically complex.

Like, you can't just go and look at someone's house for your pictures and for your fun.

So I also hate to say it, but I worry about social media turning this into, like a form of clickbait because I have noticed myself a rise in these videos on TikTok, on YouTube.

A lot of people who are presenting it as A sort of like, oh my God, look at this type situation.

And I've just noticed like an increase in that like a couple years ago.

Like I had never seen Dharavi like portrayed on social media or on YouTube and now I see it all the time and that's like, definitely a change.

So I think people see like, oh, this like gets a lot of likes.

I'm going to go and film in there and like post this for click debate.

And it just like is a snowball effect.

All right, well, let's get into what we're chatting about today, which is how we can responsibly budget travel to set the stage.

I figured I would quote an article from skift.

It was published in January and it's titled how does the Economy impact Travel?

And in this article, the author Rashad Jordan states that the economic conditions directly affect disposable income and consumer spending.

This goes without saying, in times of economic prosperity, people tend to spend more on travel and leisure activities.

And then of course, during economic downturns or recessions, consumers cut back on travel expenses, typically opting for shorter trips, budget friendly destinations or delaying their travel plans altogether.

None of this is surprising.

It makes total sense that people would behave this way, that you would see these kinds of trends like rise and fall based on like the current state of the economy.

And I know here in Canada there are definite fears about the economy in general, jobs and a potential recession.

You're based in the uk.

I'm curious what the feelings are over there about the state of things.

Yeah, I think globally.

Globally there are fears.

The UK has had a very pretty difficult time economically since the pandemic and that was compounded by the invasion of Ukraine.

The fact that fuel went up so much.

I think globally as well, we're in.

They call it cost of living crisis.

I'm not sure if it's called the same thing worldwide or if it's just like what we phrase it.

But cost of living crisis essentially is that small goods are very expensive right now.

So everything that people are buying and what we're finding is that people in much lower socioeconomic brackets, so pensioners, people on benefits like single income households, are really struggling to just heat their homes, like struggling to kind of survive that kind of thing at the moment.

Like I wouldn't say it's all bad, to be honest.

We've got a new government in place who are the labor government.

So our party system is bipartisan.

So we've got the Conservative government who were just in power, and the Labour Government, I'm sure you know bits of this, but like the Labour government has historically been more left wing and nowadays they're kind of more centrist, like soft right, I guess, for, I would say like a good bulk of the country.

That was essentially a step forward.

But historically they've economically been more reserved, I suppose, than the Conservative government.

And the Conservative government is meant to be there to stimulate economy and then they kind of left and they hadn't been so great.

So the government that we have now is trying to sort a lot of issues by conserving resources.

And I think that means that people who are on the right are getting very concerned that we're not in an economic boom.

I guess the way I see it to round that off is that things are kind of slowly improving.

But as with everywhere in the world, there's huge fears about a recession.

There's huge fears that none of us are going to have any money and that things are just going to go up and up.

Like I read some article where it was like 79% of people in the UK definitely think that we're heading for a recession and that things are going to get worse.

So yeah, economists say it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Right.

Once you are in the headspace that a recession is coming, people tend to naturally pull back their spending and then that creates a recession.

But, but as I was writing this, I just thought to myself, like, why must our economy grow?

Why can't we just like buy less stuff and not be capitalist?

But I think that's too big a conversation for this podcast today.

But yeah, it sounds like the UK has been on a very similar trajectory to Canada.

We also have a cost of living crisis here.

We were hit badly by inflation after the pandemic.

Housing is a major issue here.

Like no one can afford houses.

And now with everything going on with the U.S.

like our economy is so directly tied to the U.S.

economy, you don't live under a rock.

I don't think anyone listening to this podcast does.

So like I'm sure you've seen in the news, it's a big issue for us here.

And so I think fears in Canada are probably like amplified about it because our economy will suffer based on what's happening in America.

I haven't looked up stats about Canadian sentiment around travel abroad in general.

I know that Canadians aren't traveling to the US anymore.

Those numbers have greatly dropped off.

But with all the discussion about economic fears, I think it goes without saying that most people are reevaluating their travel Plans, potentially for this year and into the future.

I'm curious if you've made any adjustments to your travel plans in the coming months based on what's going on around the world?

Yeah, I mean, I think in general in the U.K.

people are not keen to visit the U.S.

at the moment.

That goes for both sides of the political spectrum or all ranges across it.

My own parents, for example, were thinking about going to the US and they've decided not to, which was quite a surprise to me based on their political leanings.

But in terms of myself, yes, I have definitely rethought how I travel.

I mean, for me, kind of like you were saying, I do tend to not buy so much anyway and live in a kind of anti consumer mindset.

But for example, I just quit a very stable job.

I've just gotten a dog who we heard earlier delightfully barking in the background.

And so for me, it's more a year for local travel, for kind of trying to reduce how much I fly anyway, how much I go abroad, I suppose.

And yeah, that's my feeling at the moment.

That's the thing for Luke and I.

We were talking about this the other day because we traveled so much last year.

We knew anyways that this year wasn't going to be a big year for us.

Like, we're tired and we need to catch up financially.

And so we had already decided that before we knew everything that was going to happen, we knew that this wasn't going to be a big year.

Which is why we're focusing a lot on travels that involve, like, seeing family and friends that live abroad.

That's what our trip to the Netherlands is about.

And that's like, not as an expensive trip for us to do because we're staying with friends and family throughout the trip.

So, yeah, it's a lighter year for us, but it wasn't because of the economy.

It probably would have been if we hadn't had that plan already.

It was just timing for us.

But I think for other people, like Katie.

How are you feeling?

Will you guys do any travels this year, do you think?

No travel plans this year, but also part of that is that a large chunk of our money is going towards a wedding this year.

So that was also.

Thank you.

That was also in the cards, was like, let's take it easy.

That being said, I do have plans to go to London at the end of May for a podcasting conference and I've sort of tacked on an extra day at the beginning and an extra day at the end.

Barely like, barely.

And that was like consciously done because I was like, let's try and keep.

The only way I can justify going to the UK right now is to like, try and keep this under a thousand.

And so I think normally in the past I might have been tempted to stay a couple extra more days.

So that was kind of where my brain was at, was like, even if I'm going to go, I'm going to keep it like under a certain budget.

Yeah.

And I think this is reflective of how a lot of people will probably travel in the upcoming months and years.

So before we get into responsible budget travel, I wanted to talk about a common misconception that I've noticed and that is the misconception that sustainable or responsible tourism is expensive.

And I think this is a misconception that happens because some people associate sustainable tourism with things like luxury eco lodges.

And I actually found that like in my own experience traveling with a mindful mindset, like supporting local businesses and traveling overland, I find it ends up being more affordable.

What are your thoughts on this, Emma?

Definitely, I think this misconception that like travel, sustainable travel is expensive, it's a marketing issue more than anything.

Like, I come from a travel background, so I used to sell trips like I was in sales for most of my kind of working life.

And what you'll see is that like the hotels that are advertising, like, we're sustainable, it's your Marriotts, your Hiltons, they have these like kind of, I call them fake sustainability accreditations because really they don't mean anything.

Like they're hotel imposed on themselves.

They're like, oh, we're so sustainable, we've earned a Marriott five star sustainability certificate.

And it's like, well, you made that up.

You gave it to yourself telling us.

That we're the best travel podcast out there because we said so.

It's the same thing.

It's like, oh, we're the best hotel ever because we said so.

Like, okay, it doesn't really make much sense to me, but you see it a lot on booking.com, hotels.com, because they're using AI to filter or whatever they're using.

You suddenly get these hotels popping up, they have sustainability listed, but it's, it's, it's a facade.

And I agree with you, Aaron.

I think that it, there's a lot of ways to travel sustainably that just simply involve being more mindful of where you're going and they often end up a lot less expensive anyway.

But people have this conception that like These, these big eco hotels that maybe aren't even that eco friendly in some cases.

Vegan cafes.

Like tourist led cafes?

Yeah, like the big tour companies that probably aren't hiring local guides but charge like three times as much as the local guides do themselves.

Like it's, it's all a marketing issue in my opinion.

And like greenwashing.

I always tell people, like, just have that top of mind whenever you're, especially with these tour companies.

Like these companies that are running tours like all over the planet, like on every continent.

Just be mindful of how they're marketing the fact that they're responsible to you.

Yeah, I think it's very worrying at the moment.

And I don't know whether you two have both experienced this, but the phrase sustainable travel, I think more than ever is, is sort of becoming this like trend.

And it's not a trend.

Like it's a genuine way of life that people have to adopt.

And I see a lot of hotels and tour companies being like, oh, sustainable travel.

Like that'll get more clients in.

Like we should say we're sustainable.

Like let's rebrand all our marketing material so it's green and we'll like stick a label on and say like we do XYZ without actually telling us, like what they genuinely are doing to help communities.

Often they don't even understand that sustainable tourism incorporates, incorporates communities, incorporates wildlife, that kind of thing.

And as you said, it's just complete greenwashing and jumping on a trend.

And I think that's dangerous and we have to be mindful of that as well.

That was something I was going to mention.

I do think people need to reevaluate what sustainability means because often I find people associate sustainable tourism with, I think we talked about this when I was on your show with just like issues related to the environment.

But actually sustainability is a much more holistic approach.

It involves everything from people to the planet to wildlife to resources.

It involves the entire ecosystem of our planet, which also involves culture and humans.

And so you can make sustainable choices that are more than just choosing a hotel that says it's eco friendly and is using reusable bottles for their shampoo.

Like it's also sustainable to go and stay in a homestay or a guest house that's owned by local family.

So I think it's just like people need to expand how they approach it and how they think about it.

Recently it kind of struck me that whenever I talk about sustainable travel, I always get like these comments when I do it on social Media that are like, oh, but I can't afford the train.

And I'm like, what?

You mentioned trains.

Like, that's so random.

But.

But now you're saying that.

I'm thinking maybe that is actually to do with the fact that people associate sustainability with just the environment.

And for them that means like not taking a car, not taking a flight.

This is exactly why, and I've talked about this on the show before, I don't especially like the label responsible travel, but when we were making this podcast and when I was like working on creating my website, I worried that, that calling it sustainable travel would cause people to assume that.

And I wanted something that was like more all encompassing.

And the best I could land on at that time was responsible travel, which I don't love because I think sometimes it makes people feel like there's this, like, moral aspect to it, which, like, sure, there is to a degree.

But I just, I never wanted it to be about, like shaming people or making people feel like they're irresponsible when really they just like haven't had resources or education about something.

But it's just hard because it feels like the best way to describe what this is all about, like what this podcast is about and what I talk about is about.

I don't know, it's hard.

Good stuff.

So I think we both agree that it's possible to strike a balance of mindful travel practices that center the communities we visit with a more budget conscious style of travel.

So we've talked a bit about a few ways that we've done this, but are there other ways that you've achieved this balance in your own travels?

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned homestays.

I think that they, like, they are one of the ways we've talked about already, but I really think that they're important to reinforce because they often have a very low kind of carbon footprint just because they're dealing with so many fewer people, so many fewer resources, and also like guest houses, same kind of thing.

And when you're talking about like these big expensive trips that people do, like the kind of safaris and the once in a lifetimes, I guess, that people aren't going to do every time they travel, often I think people, not that it's a misconception because a safari is really expensive, but when we're talking about going with these tour providers, they often don't pay their guides kind of that much.

Whereas if you go to the local guide directly, you can be putting all of your money directly into their pocket.

And it often is a bit of a saving as well.

So that's a great one to think about buses, like public transport and just.

Just kind of getting on the bus and having a chat with someone.

That's always a personal favourite of mine.

There are so many ways, but they kind of just involve.

It's just this mindful aspect.

Again, just having a conscious thought of like, what am I doing?

Is it necessary to book something with an eco label?

Or could I in fact just do something that's that little bit more frugal and naturally under consumes and doesn't kind of take as much from the place that I'm visiting?

Yeah, I love your point about the safari trip because so many people have talked to me about this since Luke and I were in Tanzania.

And I always tell people we didn't stay at a single lodge, we didn't stay at any lodges, we stayed in hostels the entire time we camped.

Like, you don't have to do it in this flashy way that you see portrayed online all the time.

And you can get around Tanzania by bus.

It's very easy and actually quite fun and very affordable.

I think it also sometimes is about comfort.

People want the most comfortable option.

And something I've started telling people is, yes, like you could take a train or a bus, but if you want more comfort, like, consider just hiring a driver then versus taking a flight.

Like in a lot of countries that'll still be cheaper than booking a hopper flight and it'll be more comfortable and probably a little bit faster.

So if you're looking for that middle ground, there are options for making yourself more comfortable.

This is something I tell my parents.

They're in their 70s, they want to be comfortable at this stage in life.

But there's still ways to do travel in a way that's slightly more sustainable without having to give up your comfort.

Yeah.

And often budget travel is naturally sustainable.

I don't agree that it's always the most sustainable way, but it often is.

And there are.

Like I was saying, you were talking about your Tanzania trip.

I think that's fantastic.

My husband and I, for our honeymoon, we did backpack from Cape Town up to Cairo.

We ended up doing, I think 10 safaris.

And that was not an expensive, like part of the trip because as you say, we were camping, we were staying with friends, staying in guest houses.

Like that said, from my perspective, with a little bit of privilege as well, because I understand, like, I've been to these countries quite a few times.

I also do have my own privileges when I'm traveling.

But it doesn't need to be the all inclusive fireworks show that I think a lot of people really feel it.

It has to be.

Yeah, it's so true.

And the other piece of it too is food.

I find a lot of the time, I think, in travels with some of my friends, I've noticed, like, they think, oh, like, we're on vacation so we need to go big and like have these big meals at these nice restaurants.

And actually, like, when Luke and I travel, it's more about just like going to the street food stand, going to the smaller little restaurants that are like run by a local family and those are like, often a super affordable option.

And yes, we'll go for the occasional, like, bigger meal just to, like, treat ourselves, but it doesn't need to be every single meal.

And I have noticed, like, some people do have that mindset about their travels where they just want to, like, go big for every aspect of the trip.

Yeah, definitely.

That's.

And that's good because you have allergies as well, don't you?

So you're like, you know, if you can do it, then surely everyone can.

Yeah, I can't always do it.

I always admit on this show, like, sometimes I do have to eat McDonald's.

But for the most part, we try our hardest to eat locally.

And people always laugh too, because Luke and I do not eat together when we travel, like a lot.

Basically our entire trip last year, I would eat a meal somewhere that was safe for me and then we would, like, move locations.

Dinner time was always like a three to four hour affair because I would eat and then we'd move and Lucas would eat.

That's so funny.

We have exactly that because I'm vegan and my husband's not.

And that's actually another thing I was going to say about the food is a lot of times people tell me, oh, being vegan, that's going to be impossible.

But so much indigenous food, especially on the African continent in South America, is actually vegan.

It's just beans and rice.

So that's another great way to save money that people don't think about.

Okay, so are there any red flags that you think budget conscious travelers should watch for things that might seem like a good deal but are actually harmful to local communities and ecosystems?

We've talked a little bit about, like, greenwashing and like the marketing ploys of hotels to try to convince us that they are eco friendly.

But I can kick it off because there's one that I've thought about a lot, which is wildlife experiences often.

And I know, Emma, that this is something you've talked a lot about, so I'm sure you'll have something to say about it.

But I have noticed a lot of wildlife experiences that are, like, marketed as, like, like being a sanctuary or being about conservation.

But when you take a deeper look at them, it's questionable as to whether, like, the money that's being spent is actually going towards what they say it's going towards.

So curious your thoughts on that?

I think that's something that we should think about as budget travelers.

Yeah.

I mean, in my opinion, a wildlife experience is something.

I'm not saying it should never be affordable, because that's obviously ridiculous and, like, people should always be able to kind of afford stuff that other people can afford.

But if it is so affordable that you don't even have to think twice about booking it, that to me is a bit of a red flag.

Like, why is it so cheap?

Where are they compromising?

But then again, when it comes to volunteering, probably that should be accessible.

So that's a bit of a different side of wildlife.

The thing is with wildlife is that it's mostly wrapped up in conservation and really that should be at the forefront of the facility's mind.

So wherever their money, like, whatever money they are taking, it should be going there and that should be very, very clear.

But definitely they shouldn't, as you say, be, like, super, super cheap, because that's probably not in the best interests of the animals.

And just, like, look at the scope of options available to you and, like, compare them, because, yeah, in most cases, like, when I've seen the experiences that are, like, shockingly affordable, there's a risk of exploitation happening on the other end.

Yeah.

Are there other things that you think people should watch out for when they're looking to travel in a budget friendly way?

Yeah.

So I kind of thought of a couple of different angles from what you had said.

So the first one I thought of was extreme day trips.

So, like, the very, very cheap flights that people take where they're like, oh, I can do a round trip to, like, let's say Moldova from the UK and I only need to do it for 24 hours.

I can fly in that same day, so I don't need to buy a hot hotel.

My flights are costing me £21.99 or whatever it is, and then I can just kind of eat while I'm there.

Like, extreme day trips by nature, I think, are very.

A very unsustainable practice.

And I think it's time in travel that we stop thinking that all we need to buy is the flight.

Like, there's a lot more going on.

Like, you're not really contributing to local economies.

You're kind of doing all the damage without any of the good, I would say, in that circumstance.

And the second one I was thinking about sort of when people go with this mindset of, like, I'm not gonna spend anything and I'm gonna get this, like, as cheap as I can.

And I know we're gonna come onto this a little bit later.

But one of the things I thought about was when people really go hard on the haggling, are desperate to just negotiate.

People like local vendors and what have you down to their kind of like, absolute minimum profit margins.

Sometimes I think people see this as a bit of fun and part of traveling.

And it's.

It's really not.

Like, it really is a very damaging practice that, like, deliberately strips people of income.

We'll get into that.

But I wanted to touch on extreme day trips because this is a phenomenon I only learned about recently.

I came across, like, a whole account.

Because in Canada, this is not a thing you can't.

I have never heard of this before.

Like, this is a Ryanair E EasyJet phenomenon.

In Canada, you can't fly anywhere for 21 pounds.

Not even in Canada.

Like, you can't go anywhere.

You can't even take a bus anywhere for £21 in Canada.

So, yeah, I'm just, like, fascinated by it because I found this account that was based in the UK and promoting these trips of flying to somewhere in the EU just for one day.

And my mind was blown by this, like, the irresponsibility of it all, like, aside.

I was just like, that doesn't look fun.

That looks exhausting when you said it's.

You can't fly anywhere for 2199.

So there's a very famous flight in Europe that goes between.

I think it's Warsaw and Gdask in Poland.

And it is 2.992 Euro 99.

Stop.

Yeah.

Every day you're not even paying.

Like, I think Ryan and I just run it for a sort of like a laugh because they essentially.

They make the money on other flights.

Right.

So you're not even paying for the taxes.

Like, you're just paying for, like, I think the main one you have to pay is, like, the Polish import tax or something like that.

It's wild.

Whoa.

So I read, like, years ago that France has actually outlawed flights below it's like a certain distance.

And I wonder if this is something that's like under discussion in the eu because I often, I know that people argue a lot like, well, it's too expensive to travel by train, like we need these budget airlines.

But I don't know, like when it comes to flying, I don't like to fly.

Shame people.

But just taking a flight that's like an hour or less to me is just so unnecessary because like door to door, going by train or going by bus, you're going to spend the same amount of time.

You're not really saving time, like taking a Ryanair flight.

So I wonder if this is something that you've heard discussed maybe in the UK and in the rest of Europe, like whether there should be more restrictions around that.

Yeah, so definitely the France thing was a super interesting policy and Spain is considering following suit.

As I understand it, in the UK we have a lot of flights that you can take between London, Edinburgh, London, Manchester, London, Glasgow.

And I agree with you, I think, I don't like flight shaming either.

But I do think that if you're going to go from London to Manchester, that is roughly a two hour train and it's a 30 minute flight, so the flight is actually longer because you'll have to get to the airport and get out the other side.

So I would quite like to see policies whereby they kind of make those flights redundant in a way.

But I think especially in the uk, that would maybe involve renationalising the train service to make them more affordable because our trains are expensive.

They're much more expensive than the rest of Europe even.

And I think we do have to recognize, well, we do have to recognize that people have a right to travel and like to get like travel within their own country and to get to these places.

But at the same time a lot of people using these flights are not those people.

They're like business people who are just trying to get there on a budget.

It's not like people going to see their families needing to get there urgently because they would be faster on the bus or the train to do that.

Yeah, we have similar conversations here in Canada because there are flights that operate between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal and all of those are distances that you can easily do by rail.

But the problem in Canada is our rail system is really not reliable and extremely expensive.

And so people can't justify paying for the train because famously if you take the train, it says it'll be three hours, but it's always double the time.

So it's an infrastructure problem to a degree.

It's like if we build built a rail system that was reliable, then people would want to use it more.

There's also discussions right now around like high speed rail in Canada, which I think is like really, really needed because we're a big country.

And it would just like really change the game to have high speed rail as a way to get from place to place versus having to rely on flights.

My sister in law took the train once from Vancouver to Toronto and she didn't get like a sleeper bed O throughout the trip.

My mother in law, like always laughs when she tells me this.

Like every few hours we would get like a more distressed text message from her because she was on this train and like these trains are always delayed.

So she was supposed to be on the train for like 72 hours, but it ended up being like six days and like, oh my goodness, she didn't have anywhere to sleep.

That's way too much.

Yeah, no, because I was gonna say I.

When I was a travel agent, I booked a train around Canada trip for my uncle because he really wanted to do it.

And one of the trains that he tried to take was Halifax to Toronto.

And it was so funny because they like, basically VIA Rail were just like, yeah, no, we're not gonna run that train.

And he just like on the day was like, what?

Like, yeah, like what am I meant to do?

And they were like, well, run tomorrow.

And he was like, no, no, no, I don't tomorrow.

Like, I have to go today.

Oh, it was a disaster.

I had to book him a flight in the end.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, that sums up the VIA Rail experience in Canada for sure.

All right, so you touched on it a little bit already.

But I do really want to, like, dig into the extreme budget travel phenomenon a bit more because I started thinking about it years ago when I encountered someone that was participating in this.

I was traveling in India and we were in Varanasi.

And in the evening, in Varanasi, there is a place along the river, like by the Ghats, where they hand out food to people who are in need.

So anyone in the community can go down to the Ghats and have a meal for free.

And we noticed a white man in line waiting to be fed.

And we were enraged because we just thought to ourselves, you can have a meal in this city for less than a dollar.

I'm sorry, but if you have to beg for food or go take a free meal from someone else in Varanasi, what are you doing here?

You need to go home.

You're at that point where you can't afford a meal that costs less than a dollar.

I'm still mad about it today.

It'll never not make me mad to think about this person that we saw.

I later learned that there is a phrase for this called backpacking, which kind of refers to something different than what I just described.

So it's like people who are traveling with very limited means, like, to an extreme.

And we came across it again last year in Pokhara, Nepal.

We came across some white people who were playing music on the side of the road, asking for money from tourists, from locals.

They just like fully had like a little dish out.

And, yeah, we're expecting people to give them money.

So this is a term that is used generally to describe tourists who are begging, busking, or selling things on the street in lower income communities as a way generally to fund their own travels.

I'm curious, have you ever come across this in the wild yourself?

I've seen it more on Instagram, actually.

People sort of boasting about it now.

I actually had a different interpretation of what it was.

Similar, but different like that.

It was essentially people who book just the flight and then rely on their sort of like good looks and charm to get them around the rest of the way.

So I guess the same thing, but just I wasn't aware they were going so far as to actually busk and actually ask for money.

I think it's a mixture because, like, I read the formal definition and that's what the formal definition said.

But I do see, like, these different interpretations of it.

I think in general, like, backpacking to me is just an extreme form of travel where, like, you say you're relying on the local community to a degree to, like, essentially fund your travels.

Like, I have another example.

I can't believe how many times I've like, run into this in the wild.

In Vietnam, I met a guy who just fully told me.

He was like, I only have $100.

And I was like, okay, so what are you doing?

He was like, well, I have my bike, so I'm just gonna bike from.

We were in the south.

He was like, I'm gonna bike all the way to the north, to Hanoi, and along the way I'll just ask locals if I can stay with them.

And I just, wow.

I had no words.

I was just like, oh, to like, be a white man and feel comfortable doing that.

Like, to stay with them and be a diversity.

Yeah, yeah.

He was like, oh, the locals, they'll Take care of me.

Like, people are so kind and welcoming here.

Like if I ask, they'll give me a meal and let me stay the night.

And like, it's not that I'm against that.

Like, I think to a degree, sure.

Like if you're invited by a local person to spend the day with them.

Like we did this in Nepal, but it was our trekking guide who invited us to come stay with his family for multiple days to get to know his family and to like participate in their day to day life.

It wasn't like we just like came for a night, for a free place to stay and then moved on anyways.

Rant over.

No, I mean, if you've seen it that much, like, I can imagine that it's.

I honestly don't know what I would do.

Like, I can't think if I've seen it.

I've certainly come across the very stereotypical like white dude that you're talking about who sort of like, you know, just assumes.

But I don't know that I've ever seen it in like the exact terms that they literally have no money and are like telling, telling me that.

I've seen it online and I've seen people who kind of will like crowdfund to get them to the end of their destination and then maybe like couch surfing and hitchhiking.

On this point, I was gonna say something that I think is very important to consider because when, when Marie and I, my husband and I were in Fiji, we picked up a couple of hitchhikers, like local hitchhikers, because we had a car and like, it's very common for people to hitchhike there.

Obviously we asked like, do you want us, like, we're going down the road, do you want us to take you?

We didn't just like put them in our car like weirdos, but we said, we said like, you know, would you like to go down the road?

They said yes.

And then as they were trying to get out of the car, they, in every case they would try and hand us some money.

And we were always like, oh God, no.

Like that was a hitchhike.

Like, it's a free ride.

Ride, please.

No.

And it took us quite a while.

And then eventually someone said, this is the standard fee for the hitchhiking bus.

And it's a thing there that like when you hitchhike you pay this fee.

And I was thinking, oh my goodness, like how many tourists would come here and hitchhike and not know that and just make a complete fool of themselves or not?

Pay the fee, and then this poor person who's given them a ride, expecting money, isn't going to get that.

And I think.

Think we're going to come on to this later.

I know, but when we're thinking about this behavior, you also have to consider that what you're doing, it may not only be kind of culturally inappropriate and that people are just being nice because they really are quite shocked and don't know what else to do, but you also could be doing something very wrong that is completely against the culture.

Yeah, I think that's a really important point.

It's like, you have to consider whether the way that you're traveling and behaving and interacting with the community aligns with the local culture.

I don't know if people that are participating in this are, like, putting the time into considering that.

And yeah, for me, the big problem, obviously, is the resources, the use of resources that should be going to people within the community.

And I just.

Yeah.

My feeling about this now for years has just been that this type of travel just really reflects broader issues of privilege and entitlement in travel culture.

I just think, like, if you can't afford to support yourself traveling and, like, be putting at least some form of money back into the community, like, I don't know that you should be traveling.

I think you should use the last hundred dollars you have to get home and then travel when you have money to spend.

Again, like, obviously I said earlier that we need to stop thinking of travel as just the flight.

And I think that really applies here.

Like, you wouldn't go to dinner knowing that you couldn't pay for the full bill, plus tip.

Like, if you tip in your culture, you wouldn't do that.

You would go out with the full money that you need for the drinks, the tip, the food.

And that's how you.

That's how we live.

That's how society functions.

So to think, oh, well, I'm just gonna book my flight, and then, like, by the grace of the gods, I'll survive.

That isn't how life works.

And you're quite right that it does come from a broader issue of privilege, because you would literally never get someone who isn't white doing this.

I have never seen it.

Maybe you would, but I have never seen it.

I can't imagine it.

You often wouldn't get women doing this.

And I just think it.

It's a very particular type of privilege that comes with thinking, I will be fine, people will look after me, and I never need to worry about my safety or that anything could happen to me.

Yeah.

And it is a very like self centered view.

Right.

Because you're just thinking about yourself.

You're not thinking about the impact that this will have on the people that like do extend generosity to you.

So.

Yeah.

And maybe they feel sorry for you, which is like, you know, fine.

But you're just doing it from a place of like almost a game and like, let's see how far I can, can get like just with nothing in my pocket.

And these people like might be really worried about you and like really hoping that you're going to be okay and trying to help you out of.

Yeah, there's a lot in this and it's very strange behavior to me.

It's exploitative to put yourself in a dangerous situation where like you only have so much money to spend when you're not close to home in a foreign country and then expect people to take care of you.

Like you're forcing people into caring for you because there's literally no other option other than them like leaving you on the side of the road.

It's very exploitative.

I would say that's true as well.

Like the forced choice of if you don't help me, like, I'll die, like, I'm screwed.

Yeah.

This is another one of those things that like social media.

I worry that it's become like a catalyst for it because I do feel like I've seen more of it since I started seeing this.

Something like portrayed on social media.

It's almost like put the idea into more people's heads, which kind of worries me.

And I do see like creators that use social media as a way to like fundraise for their travels, which like, I guess it's one thing if like you're fundraising within your own community.

I mean, you have a right to do that.

But it's like when you're fundraising from people like in the communities that you're visiting.

All right, so I think we can wrap up.

And I think the best way to wrap up would be to talk about one piece of advice you would give someone who wants to be a decentered, more mindful traveler, but is maybe feeling limited by cost.

So I was thinking about this one when you sent to me and I was like, it is difficult because in lots of ways being a tourist sometimes means taking the responsibility to pay for things.

But one thing I would say that has always saved me money and kind of it doesn't fit with this traditional narrative of adventure travel.

That is to do your research.

A lot of research and that includes finding out how much things cost.

Not just reading blogs that say, is it expensive?

But actually finding out genuine statistics like how much are things there?

And then when you've done that research, using that information to pre book what you can so that you're not hit with these unexpected costs.

Or also travel insurance, like, please get travel insurance.

Don't ever skip that.

Yeah.

Another thing I always like to mention, like, we talked about this a lot during the pandemic, but I think it's like extremely relevant now as well, is that if it's feeling tight to travel abroad, consider staying local here in Ontario.

And I know it's the same in the uk.

There's lots of great trips that you can do within driving distance.

If you already have a car, that's a bonus.

And the best thing about it is then you're infusing tourism dollars into your own community, which is not a bad thing.

So maybe this year, which is a little tighter for most people, is a year to focus on local travel a bit more than going abroad.

Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

And the thing is the flight, especially for Canadians, the flight is often the most expensive part of travel.

And a lot of Canadians used to go to the U.S.

yeah.

Because those were like some of the most affordable flights.

Not anymore.

No.

It's changing landscape.

Yeah.

Well, Emma, thank you so much for joining us.

This has been awesome.

I feel like we chatted about some really important things and I learned a lot chatting to you as I always do.

So thanks for taking the time to join us.

If people want to follow you, read your work, listen to you, where can they find you?

Yeah.

Well, thank you guys so much.

I also learned a lot.

I love.

Yeah, it's been so nice to be on the show.

Long time listener, like I said.

So if people want to follow me, I'm on thattravel on Instagram or the sustainable travel podcast, either one.

My website is thattravel.co.uk I do a lot of writing about various different African countries, mostly like Madagascar and Tanzania a lot of the time as well.

Yeah, that's me.

That's where you can find me.

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