Empower HR professionals to embrace technology with insights from CHRO Tricia Shields

David (00:00:00) - Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of Break the Wheel. I'm your host, David Murray here today with Tricia Shields, chief HR officer of Navient.

Tricia (00:00:10) - Hey. Welcome. Thank you for having me.

David (00:00:13) - Thank you for being here. I'm I'm excited to have a conversation with you. Now, you know, when I was looking at your LinkedIn profile, first of all, I think it is awesome seeing your background being at the same organization for what, well over a decade now? Or is it two decades? I'm like or.

Tricia (00:00:27) - Yeah, over 15 years now. I know I feel like that's almost like a little abnormal at this point. But, you know, if you're happy and you like what you're doing and you feel challenged, then why change it up?

David (00:00:38) - 100%. And also like seeing somebody kind of rise through the ranks, kind of from, from the beginning, all the way up to to a chief level is a really inspiring. So I'm definitely excited to, to probe into, into that world.

David (00:00:51) - so maybe before we just kick it off, you want to share briefly, you know, like your, the background of Navient and then, you know what? What makes you excited about your your role and your life is as chief. Chief HR officer?

Tricia (00:01:06) - Yeah.

Tricia (00:01:07) - I guess I'll just share navient. I mean, we're, consulting services company. We work in the process automation space. So definitely in the technology consulting services industry, which just in itself is really exciting because, you know, I get to actually apply some of those methodologies and technologies within the air space. And that's been really neat to be able to utilize in the work that I'm doing and that we're doing as a company. Navient has, just about 150 employees were across the nation in 29 states. And we're all remote. So one of those unique still, we're making it happen, remote organizations. So that's that's really fun. I have been with a company for over 15 years, so it's evolved like we weren't always remote. Definitely.

Tricia (00:01:51) - When I started, we weren't remote. I think we always had, like a few remote workers where our headquarters is in Wisconsin. So like a couple people that were up in Minnesota or something like that, that's.

David (00:02:01) - The accent I'm getting. I'm like, what is the oh, don't you know, I'm getting the accent. Don't you know.

Tricia (00:02:05) - I'll just throw them in there every once in a while for you?

David (00:02:08) - I love that, I love that.

Tricia (00:02:10) - So yeah. Very cool.

Tricia (00:02:11) - As you mentioned, like my career growth has been amazing at Navient and, yeah, it's it's been cool to see, you know, to experience it, but then also encouragement to others because there's been so many examples of that that I've gotten to kind of witness and work alongside with over the last 15 years.

David (00:02:28) - I love that. Well, I'm sure we're going to go deep into it, but first let's start with our uncork and unwind. So today's wine is from New York. And speaking of from New York, they became, oh yes.

David (00:02:38) - And you got your tea. And actually I have my tea as well. So yeah, it's, it's, it's tea time right now all over recording. But you know, it'll be wine time later. So the, the wines here by my desk for when I have to have a challenging conversation later today. You know.

Tricia(00:02:51) - Just.

David (00:02:53) - So today's wine is from New York. And speaking of New York, they became the first state to mandate paid prenatal leave. The law will require employers to provide up to 20 hours of paid leave in a 52 week period for pregnant employees to attend prenatal medical appointments and procedures. This is the first law of its kind in the United States, as it provides a separate bank of paid, protected leave for pregnant employees for prenatal care above and beyond existing paid leave entitlements. What are your thoughts on that, Tricia.

Tricia (00:03:22) - Yeah, it's definitely innovative and, definitely new, that's for sure. We're not seeing that in any other states. I don't even know if I've heard those conversations.

Tricia (00:03:32) - And in the other states, at least the ones that navient. And I think it's great, obviously, for expecting moms, I think there's a lot of things that are going on. And, you know, that time in people's lives that for an organization to give them that time, I think, you know, is wonderful. I guess my only hesitation around it maybe is just as an HR professional, you know, we get to talk to just such a wide range of different people with lots of different challenges. And we've seen a lot of parent programs, whether it's state mandated or, organizations that are adopting parent programs. So I think we're doing a good job within that space and that grouping of employees. But we have a lot of other things that are going on as well with employees that, you know, I just I hope that we're, you know, kind of paying equal attention to the different things that we're all facing is, I think about different mental health aspects or other, you know, physical things that might be considerations.

Tricia (00:04:30) - and then when you think of it in that big of a spectrum, you also, you know, I kind of think about what is the onus on the organization, like, you know, how much of our, our individual needs should our companies be taking on? Obviously, there's liabilities and costs with all of these things. We do have some employees in New York, but obviously, if all of your employees are in New York, there's a significant cost that could potentially come along with that as well. So I guess those are my thoughts.

David (00:04:56) - Totally makes sense. And the the challenge that you have having so many employees from different states is that whatever you do, even if it's mandated in one state, it might create a sense of inequality. If, for example, one state's getting something that other states don't.

Tricia (00:05:10) - Yeah, absolutely. Yes. And just the diversity in the states that we're in. I mean, you know, I don't know that we've seen a lot of that yet because our state growth has been so rapid so recently.

Tricia (00:05:21) - But, certainly I just published our employee handbook. It's like 164 pages now with all the different state addendums and laws that the different states, have for their specific, areas. And yes, there's definitely discrepancies from one state. To the next.

David (00:05:39) - That's a lot of pages that feels more like a hand foot, leg body book. I mean oh my goodness. That's like woo. It's a lot to read.

Speaker 3 (00:05:46) - It is.

David (00:05:47) - But covering your bases totally totally makes sense.

Speaker 3 (00:05:49) - Yeah.

David (00:05:50) - Well speaking of covering your bases air new doo doo doo doo doo question our chat based interviews going to take over. So chat based interviews are proving more popular than video interviews with job seekers. According to a new report by Sapa AI labs. What do you think about that?

Speaker 3 (00:06:06) - Yeah, I.

Tricia (00:06:07) - Looked into this a little bit. We do video interviews as a replacement to kind of a traditional HR, phone screen at navient. So they all do the interviews and then they step into a live teams, but live interview after that.

Tricia (00:06:24) - as I was looking at it, it talked about so 60% of chat interviews were completed in 24 hours. This is the statistic that CPI is quoting. 33% of video interviews were completed in 24 hours. So there is a big difference in those two. But then when you look at the overall completion rate, 79% of chat interviews were completed overall versus 77 from a video interview perspective. And that does kind of make sense. It's a little easier to chat, right? Because it just shows up and you can you don't have to like, you know, fix yourself up or make sure your background is right or, those types of things. So I think we would expect that chat interviews would be, you know, a higher completion rate. But it's really as they're seen, it's that not that significant. And then on the flip side, are there things that you're able to gather in a video interview that maybe you're not gathering that are actual job requirements? in a chat interview. So I think it was interesting.

Tricia (00:07:23) - But I think when you look at the overall completion rate, it's not that big of a difference.

David (00:07:28) - That is interesting. Well, and I imagine if you're hiring for something that requires a lot of interaction where you can read body language, that kind of thing, it can be helpful. But if you're in a role that maybe is like not only fully remote, but maybe it's a, you know, customer service facing where you're doing chat based customer service and you're never actually interacting with a customer. I wonder if maybe that kind of thing could work.

Tricia (00:07:51) - Yeah, yeah. I'm curious too, just how many employers now are adapting or adopting chat technology? You know, we definitely hear a lot of HR professionals that are still doing phone screenings. I feel like people think we're really innovative, that we're doing, video screenings or video for that first initial interview. So I really actually don't know any other HR professionals that are utilizing chat. So I'll be curious as that becomes more of the conversation, amongst HR professionals.

David (00:08:19) - Totally makes sense. Awesome. Well, let's dive into the reality check. So I want to get into your world and your reality and your day to day and like what is top of mind for you. So this is your time and your space. Share with me what's been most top of mind going to Trish's world?

Tricia (00:08:36) - Okay, well, definitely it's going to be in the technology space. So I don't know if I share it, but my background is in it. So I got my degree in business and applied Information technology. So absolutely nothing in HR related. I don't think I even took an HR class when I was in college. and really found my way into the air space. So that's really been my passion is both, you know, understanding and helping to adapt and kind of break down the barriers of technology within the air space. So my reality check that I thought was really interesting. right now it's technology. We're talking, I think, more and more about there's a million different air technologies to adapt to.

Tricia (00:09:21) - So it's not even that we're seeking more technologies. I feel like now in the air space, we're seeking the right technologies, that really help us do the work that we're doing. You know, we're really busy as HR professionals, and there's so many options out there and people screaming, hey, use more technology. So here is my reality check statistic, if I might, to share with you. So the average company has 11 systems of record. And if you include learning and talent and talent systems it's almost double that. So my reality check is just kind of back around the what type of technologies are we using 11 systems of record. That means you have employee names and employees, some type of employee data that you're storing in 11 different systems. And this is what I feel like we're hearing a lot about is how are you keeping that all up to date? and it's, it's an, a possibility. And last, and this is my new favorite thing to explore is either identifying technologies that solve more than one, challenge or working with technologies that speak well, to one another, and work well.

Tricia (00:10:36) - And I don't think either one. I don't think there's a final solution in either one, but, that's that's definitely a reality check for me right now. Even working in the technology space, I have more than one system of record, that's for sure.

David (00:10:50) - That's ironic, because, like, the whole point of a system of record is that it is your one record, right?

Speaker 3 (00:10:55) - Right.

David (00:10:56) - Yeah. The one place to put everything right. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I, I think, well, as an organization that tends to work with, with companies that have a, you know, their own eyes and then we do the integration with them, like it's clear that, there is no one key leader when it comes to his systems of record. Yeah. And something else that I've noticed is that, like, you know, the smaller you are as an organization, the more that you may be likely to like, consolidate, have, you know, especially if you're like one person, you know, have one system or maybe a couple systems.

David (00:11:28) - But as you grow, you know, oftentimes people want to have like that awesome point solution for a specific problem. Like if you have, for example, you know, a recruiting system that maybe your his core system isn't as, as great, you might have that and then plug it in or, you know, in confirms world. Right. So like performance management, it's a it's a big part of what we do. But also organizational network analysis so that you can identify the elements of your of of who's going to people for help and advice and who energizes and motivates them at work, who that people concerned about things that you wouldn't traditionally get from traditional performance reviews and like for that kind of thing, you know, you have to integrate with the. So yeah, it's 11 is is way more than I thought.

Tricia (00:12:15) - Right, right. And I think it's interesting when you said as well, I mean, I think it's the mid-market two that's struggling right now with that more so I think we're seeing in really large organizations that there are systems that maybe at least satisfy more, of what the need is.

Tricia (00:12:34) - I think the performance piece, I rarely see that as a really polished product within a built in his system. I don't know that I've ever seen that, to be honest. so having, you know, having an HR system that does provide that connectivity and integration with a system like performance management because they can do it better, really does help the organization. But we're not from a mid-market perspective, the HRS and just kind of overall systems or HCM systems, we're not seeing those as robustly answering as many of the questions. They might be your system of record and do a couple key components really well, but definitely not across the board. So then it's figuring it out. Are you with the wrong HRS system or is it finding better integrations of these, you know, key areas that another organization can plug into and just do really well?

David (00:13:28) - Sure. And then you need to have like a technical team or an IT team that's knowledgeable and capable to be able to manage and connect all of these dots and maintain them and security and everything else.

David (00:13:37) - It's like and never enough resources, right? HR never has enough resources. Always. Like often bottom of the totem pole. It's like oh yeah yeah yeah. Frustrations. Well, speaking of people misunderstand. So tell me, what do people misunderstand about your job or the space or something that you see often every day?

Speaker 3 (00:13:56) - Yeah.

Tricia (00:13:57) - well, the first one that I was, I was kind of first came to mind was just about the advocacy of HR. So oftentimes, you know, people see HR as the advocate for the company and ensuring that the company is protected and knowing what the, you know, company policies are and kind of displaying those down to employees or enforcing them on employees. And I mean, I think that's obviously true. Like the organization has their HR department there to ensure that they are protected. We're just talking about all the state compliance laws, like somebody in the organization has to know what those pieces are. But I think kind of the misunderstanding of HR is, I mean, I network with HR professionals, as I'm sure you do all the time, and they're advocates for the employee as well.

Tricia (00:14:41) - And there's actually a really wonderful space where you can be in both. Like I often find that I'm helping to advocate advocate for employees based on my knowledge of what some of those policies and procedures and even what the companies desires are that, helping employees to kind of move ahead or be able to take advantage of things that are available to them. so that I feel like is still a, you know, sometimes I have Friday afternoon, I've kind of got everything done, and I want to give somebody a call. And I worry that if I just, I am out of the blue, like, hey, hacker wants to talk to you, that they'll have that kind of wrong misconception about why I might be calling, where I'm really calling, because I just want to catch up and hear how things are going. But I have to add in one more, just based on what we were talking about previously with technology is oftentimes, I feel like there's a huge misconception that HR professionals are not. Nicole. And I can't tell you how often I'm in.

Tricia (00:15:41) - I'm in quite a few roundtable groups with other HR pros, so we can just chit chat about like, what's going on and what we're seeing. And sometimes and I'm technically I feel like I'm somewhat technical, but I'll be sitting back in these conversations and I'm blown away at the the verbiage that these individuals are using and their understanding of where we're at, at least within the HR technology space. So, we definitely need to partner with the right technical folks to help guide us through these processes. But HR folks, I think now are much more technical than they've ever been.

David (00:16:16) - Well, the themes that I hear there are, number one, this is a two bolded word, but dehumanization of HR, I kind of, you know, and then, like underestimation. You know, the I see, you know, these TikTok videos, I think I've mentioned this in a episode before, you know, people say like, HR is not your friend. And they talk about how, you know, don't share anything with HR, etc. and, and at the same time, I think you're, you're recognizing and and sharing that there is a very human real component that you're working day in and day out with everyone at your organization.

David (00:16:48) - And you may care personally about those individuals and you want them to be successful. You know, in addition to doing the core job that the company wants you to do, right?

Tricia (00:16:56) - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think most HR people go into HR because they like people and not because they want to understand policies and be the enforcers.

David (00:17:06) - Totally. Nope. I mean, maybe there are some people that light up by being the enforcer, but I don't know.

Speaker 3 (00:17:11) - There's probably different lines of work for you, if that's what.

David (00:17:14) - What makes you feel fulfilled? I love it. All right. Jumping into our next segment, break the wheel or break a heel. My one of my favorite segments. So breaking the wheel meaning, you know, it's a good thing you're you're you're you're modernizing your innovating and breaking a heel is like what breaking a heel feels like. So topic this week is activities at company all hands meetings. This one's juicy because I'm sure all of us have had our own share of interesting, company all hands meetings that have gone awry.

David (00:17:45) - So diving in the first one, open mic Q&A. Break the wheel or break a heel.

Tricia (00:17:52) - And break a heel on this. Now you have to remember that we're a remote company, so we only get we do get together once a year in person. And I just think those are such invaluable times to start building personal bonds, you know, individual bonds with other people in the organization or small groups that I just feel like that content is really good for. Maybe when we're in like a general space, I feel like we miss out. Otherwise some break a heel.

David (00:18:19) - There you go. I think that's that. It makes sense. And I'm maybe not everybody would say the same, but I actually agree with you, so it makes sense. All right. Next, spending a whole lot of money on a celebrity performance.

Speaker 3 (00:18:32) - Now, some of this could.

Tricia (00:18:34) - Be because I feel like I'm totally out of touch with even, like, who are celebrities now? So I'm a break a heel, I guess, you know, if there's budget for it, maybe that makes sense, but I feel like employees now, they want us to be spending money on like, engagement activities.

Tricia (00:18:50) - And I just don't know that that's a big enough of a engagement activity to be worth as spend.

David (00:18:56) - That's fair. You know, in my early days at Google, I mean, I was at Google in like 2006 to 2008, you know, the heyday when it was just like, all cool, whatever. And, they would bring in all these super fancy people and it would certainly be a big draw, and it'd be something you tell your friends and family about it. Definitely. Like was really cool. But I don't know, there was a lot of money at the company at the time that made it feasible. Right? I think the theme of of 2024 for many organizations that I talked to is, you know, we've been letting people go, we've had to do layoffs. We're trying to get tighter with our budget, like we're trying to to get to profitability. So, maybe now isn't the time.

Speaker 3 (00:19:30) - Right?

David (00:19:31) - I will say I was at a conference not too long ago, a few weeks ago, from an awesome company that, had at the conference.

David (00:19:40) - Brené Brown was a guest speaker.

Speaker 3 (00:19:41) - And watch her.

Tricia (00:19:43) - I would love that, actually.

David (00:19:44) - Oh, it was so cool. Actually, the the the irony was, you know, she was talking about, I mean, all the awesome things that she talks about, about being vulnerable and, you know, like, Actually she. Key takeaways. She said something like, you know, if in today's world, if you're not afraid, then you're not paying attention, which I was like.

Speaker 3 (00:20:04) - Wow, that's that's scary.

David (00:20:06) - But yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (00:20:07) - I would make an.

Tricia (00:20:08) - Exception for Brené Brown.

David (00:20:11) - All right. Next, leadership discussing layoffs at the company. All hands, break the wheel or.

Speaker 3 (00:20:17) - Break the heels.

Tricia (00:20:17) - See, I feel like I'm kind of a downer here, but I'm going to break the wheel again.

Speaker 3 (00:20:22) - Oh, you can break it.

David (00:20:22) - Break a heel, right?

Speaker 3 (00:20:23) - Or. I'm sorry.

Tricia (00:20:24) - Break. Yes, break a heel. Thank you. I mean, I definitely I'm a huge advocate for transparency, for sure.

Tricia (00:20:31) - Like, if there's layoffs, you know, or big, big shifts in the organization, I think there should be a lot of transparency around that. I just don't know if that's the right setting for it.

Speaker 3 (00:20:41) - That's fair.

David (00:20:42) - Well, then this one will probably be lap, coworker displays of affection break the wheel or break a heel.

Tricia (00:20:48) - I'm just kind of a break the heel on all PDA.

David (00:20:51) - I think that that's that's very reasonable. And, I think I would agree with that at the workplace. All right, last one. break the wheel, break a heel. Drinking games.

Tricia (00:21:02) - I'm definitely break a heel on this. I mean, come on, I major.

David (00:21:08) - I know this is a layup. I would say this is a five out of five.

Speaker 3 (00:21:11) - Break a heel. Oh, is.

Tricia (00:21:12) - That a record?

David (00:21:14) - It is, it is. I don't think we've had five out of five, but I actually I when I look at these you know, they're I collaborate with coming up with these.

David (00:21:22) - And I would say when I looked at these I thought these actually open mic Q&A, I was a little bit like I could see some people saying break, break the wheel. But you know, I could see why you said break the heel.

Speaker 3 (00:21:31) - Okay.

Tricia (00:21:31) - All right. So it's valid.

David (00:21:33) - Yeah, absolutely. All right. So since we've had a lot of heel break and let's get into wheel breaking, this is the wheel breaker of the week. So the United States government is a wheel breaker over the week which I don't know. I'm like freedom of speech, but I'm not always proud about what's going on in the government. But hey, this is cool. So the US Federal Trade Commission, FTC, has announced that it has issued a final rule that will be banning non-compete across the country in order to promote competition, protect the freedom of workers and changing jobs, increase innovation, and foster the creation of new businesses. What are your thoughts on that?

Tricia (00:22:06) - Yeah, obviously there's been a lot of talk about this within the air space.

Tricia (00:22:10) - So, you know, I think definitely some industries that are going to be more impacted by this and others, I would say non solicits are a little bit more common, in our industry than trying to prevent, you know, people from going to get a job, you know with one of our competitors. So I don't think there's going to be a huge impact in the type of work that we do. And maybe that's even primarily because we're not developing technology. We're really consultants around the technology space. the one thing that was interesting about, this ruling was the effect on health care. Did you read about that at all?

David (00:22:50) - I think I heard about that.

Speaker 3 (00:22:51) - Yeah.

Tricia (00:22:51) - So part of the ruling was that it's projected that, there's going to be a reduction in health care costs by up to 194 billion in the next decade. And obviously, health care is a huge challenge. HR and just organizationally. So I'm really curious to hear more about that. Just what that effect of the non-compete is going to be.

Tricia (00:23:14) - And it was specifically, I think, around not around like doctors and people that are in the medical profession, being able to be more competitive with where they're landing with their employers. And that's going to help drive down health care costs. So, I mean, that's certainly intriguing.

Speaker 3 (00:23:33) - If it goes.

David (00:23:34) - Yeah, if that actually is what occurs, I got to say I'll leave it when I see it, you know, like, oh my gosh, I yeah, maybe like the day that they eliminate like mother holding baby $40 as like a line item on like, you know, it's like maybe then we'll be talking, but I, I can't help but be incredibly skeptical that, things will get cheaper there.

Speaker 3 (00:23:58) - Yeah, I agree.

David (00:23:59) - We all want.

Speaker 3 (00:24:00) - It. Yeah, it'd be wonderful.

Speaker 4 (00:24:02) - I know. Okay.

David (00:24:04) - All right. Well, with, with all the wheel breaking, I feel like I need a little wisdom. So this is wisdom on the rock. So it's your opportunity to share a key piece of air wisdom or truth bomb, focusing on a solution rather than the problem.

David (00:24:19) - So tell me, do you have any wisdom on the rocks to share with our audience today?

Tricia (00:24:24) - well, I would think about, you know, obviously gone, like always with technology because I feel like that's like where my greatest interests lie. But, I pulled some statistics around just kind of our adoption to technology. So it's 60% of HR departments are not using AI right now. 74% of HR departments are not digitized. So think what that means. That's paper processes. So and not fully digitized. So even within that percentage there's you know a grouping that have done. Some digitization, but they're still working off of a lot of paper processes. So that blend between like use of technology and the digitization of our documents. Because air I mean, we're so heavy paper traditionally there's a real there's a real blend there. So what I would say my wisdom on the rocks is there's a lot of conversation going on around technology. If you haven't started down your technology journey yet, or you're kind of being pulled along based on the things that we're all using now, that digitization piece, there's a huge opportunity with that, not only in, having your documents in an electronic format, but it's also all the opportunity you get once they are that way.

Tricia (00:25:44) - So like, there's tons of talk about automation. This is the space that we work into, but tons of talk around automation and opportunities. HR is one of the biggest use cases for the automation, the automation world, I guess, because there are so many processes, you know, HR is a real core within our organizations, and we pass a lot of information all around individual employees to departments, to managers, amongst the HR group, to outside vendors. So being able to take advantage of some of those, opportunities, I'm going to just go back to like a huge key place to start is stop using paper and start finding opportunities to digitize, if you haven't already. And then some of these other like what might seem like very confusing technologies, some of those pieces will start to come into place because you'll start to be able to understand those concepts better as you just start working in more of a digital space.

David (00:26:45) - That must be the really intimidating. If you have everything on paper to think about digitizing that.

David (00:26:51) - Like how would how would somebody even begin that process if they haven't even started and and you know, they have, I don't know, papers and papers and papers.

Speaker 3 (00:27:01) - Right.

Tricia (00:27:02) - Well, even think about organization. I mean, there's still a ton of organizations that have filing room file cabinets and filing rooms, you know, and so absolutely, that would be intimidating. I would never recommend just buying technology and trying to scan it in and stick it in there. I mean, it's a whole process. And so we talk often about finding, just like yourself, organizations that you can partner with that really understand that space. So make sure you're not looking for a vendor. You're looking for a partner that understands HR processes, the specific challenges that you're trying to overcome, and then asking them really challenging questions. Don't just, you know, use them as a guide and kind of go, you know, go with what they say. Like if there's things that are concerning, like with the digitization space pilot around security, you're worried about who's going to have access to it.

Tricia (00:27:54) - If it's not locked in a filing cabinet in your office, in a lot of these partners, they're going to have those answers for you if they're good, to be able to work through those things. So I would say partnering with organizations that specialize in are really kind of best in class and what they do in that space.

David (00:28:12) - That resonates. I mean, I imagine if there's a lot that you don't know, that you don't know, it would be really scary to even think about, like where to begin. But if you're partnering with an organization that does this time and time again, it might be less intimidating. I, I'm reminded of a client that we we recently entered into a pilot with their a healthcare organization that's affiliated with the university and like had been doing everything just paper, paper, paper. And there was some fear because, you know, there's regulation about like needing to have signatures, but there's also laws that digitized versions of signatures are equally enforceable in all 50 states, like there's a law about that.

David (00:28:48) - So I think folks may think that they need paper for certain situations when the reality is, is that legally speaking, they no longer do. And it's really just a matter of like taking those steps with a partner that can kind of hold your hand to, to get you to where you need to be.

Speaker 3 (00:29:03) - Yeah. Great.

Tricia (00:29:03) - Yeah. We even saw that just I mean, not that many years ago with the I-9. I remember it was like, oh, there's no way you could ever use an electronic I-9. And now here, that's just absolute commonplace to do that. But there was such a fear around that and actually really late adopters to that, being more of a electronic digitize process because it was the same thing. It's like, no, the federal government said we can. It's like, that's actually not true. And we have seen that evolve. So there's a good one for the government.

Speaker 3 (00:29:32) - Yeah, yeah.

David (00:29:34) - All right. Time for my, my, my one of my favorite segments.

David (00:29:37) - This is the what should I have done segment where I embarrass myself about something in my life, and you tell me what I should have done in that situation. So this one, you're we're going in cold. So. So here's the situation. so my, my partner, you know, we've been together for, for years and, he, you know, his job, he's been at his job for, you know, ten, ten plus years, really long time and, you know, very large organization, kind of, you know, day in and day out and, and, you know, job's a job and say, lovey. so I was I was at an event for other founders of, of startups and talking with someone else there who's a founder of a startup that's pretty early stage, but working in the exact space that my partner works in. And like with the exact kind of looking for somebody with the exact kind of skill set and experience that my partner has, which is a very kind of unique set of, of, of, of skills and kind of a unique thing that he does.

David (00:30:37) - And I was thinking to myself, well, he's currently like at his doing his thing and he's, you know, I mean, things could be better, things could be worse. Right. certainly open to more excitement now. Startups can be more exciting, but they're also more chaotic. They you know, I say this being having been at startups, right, for many, many years, right? Yeah. They tend to pay less. They tend to demand a little bit more from a workload perspective. They they tend to have less job security. And I was debating whether or not to tell him about.

Speaker 3 (00:31:12) - It.

David (00:31:13) - Or to just. Yeah. Or to just not say anything. And. Yeah, let him kind of decide on his own what he wants to do with his, his future. So, yeah. Should I have said something. What should I have done?

Tricia (00:31:25) - Well, absolutely. You should have said something. I mean, that's your partner and your advocate for success with each other, too, right? and I just think, you know, you think about that whole recruitment space right now and.

Tricia (00:31:39) - The ability to be a good networker and just to meet new people. And this isn't even just in recruitment, this is in the work that we do as well, but the ability to, connect with people and learn about the space, like, who knows what little gem, you know, might have been at that startup and maybe not, but at least being able to explore that as an opportunity. I even think, you know, and here I am like an employer saying that. But, you know, I think we should, we should have a value proposition for our organizations and, and brand ourselves. And why do employees want to be here? We talk about this all the time. At Navient, we're constantly interacting with our employees, trying to learn why they like to be here and and changing based on what we're seeing within the, you know, the employee population. So I think absolutely, it may be not too late to tell them that's fair.

David (00:32:34) - Well, I did end up telling him, okay.

David (00:32:36) - And, you know, so he's going to have a conversation just to see where it goes. But I will admit there's a part of me that's like, afraid. Like, what if he says yes? What if he joins this new job? Then what if, you know, things go wrong or it's like he's unhappy, can't get the. Yeah. Then can't go back to the other job. And then I just like, made his life worse. And now I'm like, oh, you know, I guess you have.

Speaker 3 (00:32:55) - To take the risks.

David (00:32:57) - You have to be willing. Yeah. That's fair, it's fair. Well, luckily we're in agreement and I did, I did, did ask. So thank you for your for your comfort.

Speaker 3 (00:33:05) - Well thank.

David (00:33:06) - That maybe I did the right.

Speaker 3 (00:33:07) - Thing. Yeah.

Tricia (00:33:07) - You did.

David (00:33:09) - All right. Jumping to another one of my favorite segments, Horror Story of the week. So we're going to dive into a real life horror story HR horror story and maybe analyze what went wrong or how companies can avoid making the same mistakes, or just just a little tea spilling.

David (00:33:24) - You could spill some tea. So tell us, Trisha, what's your horror story?

Tricia (00:33:27) - You like my tip here to spell it? I would, I feel first of all, I have to say I feel very lucky to work where I work in the industry that I work in, to work remote, because as I look at my pure counterparts in other industries, you know, I think about manufacturing, industries in particular. I have a lot of peer friends in manufacturing, and it's much more challenging than than my job. I just feel like I get an opportunity to do more innovative things, maybe more, employee engagement. And they're dealing with things that I don't deal with a lot. So mine is going to be very weak. I will just pre warn you, but this is maybe a learning lesson for candidates from an HR perspective. So working in a remote environment, you know we do all of our we're recruiting across the nation. So all of our interviews are over video live video. And I will just say that I have seen some very interesting backgrounds when it comes to remote workers.

Tricia (00:34:34) - And think about that remote worker candidates, that that's going to be what we anticipate your future office space. And it doesn't have to I like yours is beautiful, David. Mine is, kind of north woodsy. But make your bed don't have dirty laundry in the bed. Like, maybe just take a scan over your background of what you're showing me. Because, you know, as much as we try to not have bias, I mean, I'm thinking if you don't make your bed, are you coming to work on time?

David (00:35:05) - I love that, you know, I never like I mean, something I think we all see. We all observe, but not something that folks talk about a lot.

Speaker 3 (00:35:13) - But yeah, it is relevant.

David (00:35:15) - I mean, you're bringing in your world and you get this little peek into your world and.

Speaker 3 (00:35:18) - Like, yeah.

David (00:35:18) - Curating that is actually really important.

Tricia (00:35:21) - We are seeing more of the blurred backgrounds. Now. I will say that.

David (00:35:25) - Hiding instead of curating.

Speaker 3 (00:35:27) - Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:35:28) - What's the what's.

David (00:35:28) - The weirdest thing or the maybe the the most uncomfortable thing that you've seen in a background from a from a candidate.

Speaker 3 (00:35:33) - Call?

Tricia (00:35:35) - I probably because we do a lot with, folks that are just graduating college. So college students and interns, I'd say, like, you know, alcohol in the background or, you know, just kind of even in the way that they decorate, you know, just looks, like how my apartment or dorm looked when I was in college. So, no real shock, but nothing. I and I have not been hit with anything that's been shocking. I will say that.

David (00:36:03) - Okay, that's probably good. It's like bringing your whole self to work. You're really. You're bringing work to your whole self through camera.

Speaker 3 (00:36:12) - Yes.

David (00:36:13) - I love it. All right. Moving on. We have the wobbly wheel of the week while this week the wobbly wheel is Disney. So Disney is undergoing yet another lawsuit for workplace discrimination and unequal pay of a minority woman compared to both her male and white female peers.

David (00:36:29) - This lawsuit comes just four months after a judge allowed 9000 women employees to sue Disney for pay discrimination. What can Disney do to turn this train around? Any thoughts?

Tricia (00:36:39) - Yeah. this one I think was really interesting. It's really, around the concept of job families and how you're categorizing employees and putting them in categories or families they call them when it comes to compensation. That allows them to benchmark and compare within the organization and externally as well. So, the kind of beef right now with Disney is that their categories or their job, families are really large. So I was actually reading about this particular job, family has really different roles within it, which is going to make a huge consideration as far as the compensation from one, position to the next. So as an example, they have chefs, architects, engineers, visual effects directors, nurses, dog handlers and social media managers all within the same job family. so I think that's.

David (00:37:39) - Family worker.

Speaker 3 (00:37:40) - Right?

Tricia (00:37:43) - What is the commonality there? so I think we're going to see them, you know, this is really going to force the, kind of compacting of job families into more relatable, roles across the organization.

Tricia (00:37:57) - But I guess the reminder for just organizations as a whole is that that is a consideration, and it can get you in trouble as far as that compensation piece and ensuring that you're classifying folks in roles that are more similar.

David (00:38:11) - That's very interesting. I think, you know, having worked with many organizations, I mean, I find the the taking the time to create those job families is something that while you might not see it at like an early stage, small, tiny organization, you definitely see it more and more. And certainly any organizations that we have working with, you know, 502,000 employees or above absolutely have job families in there. Chris. Yeah. oh, is there any do you have any wisdom on, like, if you're coming from a place of kind of having a chaotic set of job families, how to clean that up or what might be next steps to do that.

Tricia (00:38:43) - Yeah. I mean, there are you know, definitely that's something if if that is a chaotic process that that's something that, you know, should be continuously evaluated like, and I think this is common practice at Navient.

Tricia (00:38:54) - We do that annually. So we're looking at our job families certainly always when you're adding a new job or a new role to your organization, just sitting down and kind of having that check of what job family does it is, or a current existing job family that it can fit nicely into. Or does a new one need to be created? There's certainly outside vendors. I know a lot of organizations will do, comp panelists, and that would play a part in that as well. to help to identify that and, and create what best practices around that.

David (00:39:29) - Totally makes sense. You know, we we started just from our beginnings, even when we're fewer than ten employees with an existing comp tool that just had existing job families. And it's like, why reinvent the wheel? You know, we just adopted those those job families directly from the comp tool. So then you maintain benchmarks and you don't have to kind of do this translation and right, you know, everything just stays maintained.

Tricia (00:39:49) - Right? I mean, compensation is it's challenging and there's a lot that goes on to it or it goes into it.

Tricia (00:39:55) - So why make it more challenging?

David (00:39:57) - I know right.

Speaker 4 (00:39:58) - Amen.

David (00:39:59) - All right. Diving in next we have water cooler whispers. So drawing from, word on the street, the idea here is to get some, I don't know, anonymous insights, confessions or stories that you've heard any anything that you've heard. That's a word on the street, a water cooler whisper. Tell us your water cooler.

Speaker 3 (00:40:18) - Whisper. Yeah.

Tricia (00:40:19) - I feel like if I'm thinking about, you know, us air professionals whispering around the water cooler, I feel like what we're talking about is, well, first of all, air folks got really tired during the pandemic. I mean, that was an exhaustive time for air professionals. I've never heard about more people, you know, thinking about changing industries and changing out of air and just burnt out. And, you know, they're, doing the temperature tests at the same time that they're, you know, trying to onboard new people. And it was a really challenging time in the air space, more so than I've ever seen.

Tricia (00:40:59) - I feel like over the last year, maybe two, I've seen air get really re-inspired and re-energize. and that's the conversation that I'm hearing. I see them looking for ways to reinvent themselves and the work they do. Some of that's around technology. Some of it's just more innovative strategy, like, how do I get to be more strategic, and what are some of the strategic things that other HR professionals are talking about? I would say they're excited about technology. You know, it's kind of like that old thought of HR people like they don't want to adopt technology. Yeah, they absolutely do. And they're using. CNet they're embracing change. Like I see. That's another kind of historic feeling about air is like, we're kind of curmudgeons and we don't want to change. We want things to be the same, but actually see a lot of HR professionals talking about driving new change in their organization and how do they help their organizations, adapt to change. And I think right now the The Whispers is about those things, but it's just seeking sources to figure out how to apply it.

Tricia (00:42:08) - Like it's almost like there are so many things going on, so many ideas. and you know, what are the best things to tackle? And talking amongst ourselves of like, you know, what are you doing that's working really well? So I just I feel really inspired in air space right now.

David (00:42:23) - I love that. Well, something that definitely stands out for me, having having worked with, with HR folks for, for many years is the network of folks and the wisdom that is shared about what's working and what's not working, whether that be tools, technologies, you know, some you know, some new compliance thing came and it's like, what are you doing about this and sharing their approach? It's such a great network in that regard.

Speaker 3 (00:42:45) - And I feel.

Tricia (00:42:45) - Like we're a great networking group. Like HR professionals love to share with each other. They really do. So I mean, even like this platform is amazing just to hear more of, you know, what are other HR pros interested in and talking about? And how do they feel about these different things that are going on?

David (00:43:02) - Totally, I love that.

David (00:43:03) - Awesome. Well, moving on to HR speak funny. So this is the time when because we always have lingo, we always have these words that we use. And you know, so I like to kind of poke fun at them because, sometimes they're really weird. And this is one that I've never actually used at the workplace, but I have seen it and I'm like, what is this? So the word, the words today or the phrase today is bench strength, which refers to the capabilities and readiness of potential employees to step into key roles within the organization, much like players on a sports team waiting on the bench. Do you ever use the words bench strength? Is that something that you hear?

Tricia (00:43:37) - I've never used the word bench strength. I mean, like you, I know what that means. Like, I know that's been used in conversation. I don't know who's using it. But similarly, I feel like it's, you know, I just kind of reminded me of, like, you know, middle school basketball team and we're all, like, waiting on the bench and, like, hoping that they pick us.

Tricia (00:43:55) - Or at least that I don't get picked last.

Speaker 3 (00:43:58) - Yeah.

David (00:43:59) - Raise your hand if you were never picked first in any of that. Right.

Speaker 3 (00:44:03) - Not a natural.

Tricia (00:44:04) - Athlete.

David (00:44:05) - Oh, man. Same my brother always was I was I was like a I was a I was a pleasantly plump young, young boy. And I would get picked for kickball because I could kick that ball really far. But just about everything else, you know, not dodgeball, not dodge.

Speaker 3 (00:44:18) - Yeah. I would just.

David (00:44:20) - Bet. Strength. Yeah. It's, you know, sports analogies at work when it comes to, like, how we phrase things. It's kind of interesting because if, if you're really into sports, they can really resonate. But if like, sports were just kind of, I don't know, traumatizing part of your childhood, that's true.

Speaker 3 (00:44:34) - Then maybe it's bad connection.

Speaker 4 (00:44:36) - Yeah.

David (00:44:37) - Maybe we should, I don't know, like, I'm thinking bench. And also this idea of a bench, right. It's like, are there people that, like, kind of sit there and wait to be picked and do work? I mean, maybe much larger organizations that there's people sitting on the bench on the.

Speaker 3 (00:44:49) - Sidelines, but. Right. Gosh.

David (00:44:51) - We can't afford that these days. No way.

Speaker 3 (00:44:54) - I feel like no.

Tricia (00:44:55) - One's sitting on the bench these days. Just everybody's.

Speaker 3 (00:44:58) - Busy.

Tricia (00:44:59) - And. Right.

Speaker 3 (00:45:00) - Totally.

David (00:45:01) - And yet I'll just say, like an organization that I know of with a friend that I know of, whose name will go unmentioned and whose company will go unmentioned, like asks asks his boss for work, and the boss is like, I'll get you some work. And then the work never comes. Oh. Oh yeah, inefficiencies like this. Like, I mean, when you're talking about organizations that get into tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands, like sometimes it's their folks, their folks that are like, are asking for work.

Speaker 3 (00:45:26) - Isn't that.

Tricia (00:45:27) - Unbelievable?

David (00:45:28) - It's crazy to me because.

Speaker 3 (00:45:29) - I'm like, yeah.

Tricia (00:45:30) - And not feeling.

Speaker 3 (00:45:30) - Like maybe.

Tricia (00:45:31) - From a value perspective that probably doesn't feel very good.

David (00:45:35) - Totally like from a meaning and purpose perspective. Agreed?

Speaker 4 (00:45:38) - Agreed.

David (00:45:39) - All right. Well, next is declined to comment.

David (00:45:42) - So this is where I'm going to ask you three questions. You can pick one to decline and you can answer the other two. And I'm going to go in order. So you have to decide when you hear the first one are you going to answer it or decline. So number one what is the worst thing that most HR teams do and hide from leadership?

Speaker 3 (00:46:03) - Ooh.

Tricia (00:46:04) - I will decline this one. I feel like because I am in leadership and I am a char, this one's a little hard, so I'll have to go back and ask my team that this this week.

Speaker 3 (00:46:15) - All right.

David (00:46:16) - Well, then you're gonna have to answer the next two. Oh my gosh. Well, let's dive in. All right. Number one or number two, if I was going to take over a job role in HR, what would it be.

Tricia (00:46:28) - I would say that it's going to be administrative roles. And so roles that have traditionally more, manual tasks, doing a lot of repetitive. Processing, but I almost kind of think we've already seen this.

Tricia (00:46:42) - Like we're doing less administrative work than we've done before. we have a role at our organization called an HR coordinator. What an HR coordinator was doing ten years ago is completely different than what our HR coordinators are doing. I mean, they're doing really cool, innovative stuff. If you want an example, go on our YouTube shorts. That's our HR coordinator that's producing all that content. And so I think it's it's administrative tasks. They're probably spread out amongst all of our jobs. But I think that's what I is more replacing to allow us to do more value add stuff.

David (00:47:19) - So is your HR coordinator now living and breathing in ChatGPT?

Tricia (00:47:23) - You know what she's teaching me? Like she's a Gen Z. It's blowing me away because I'm a Gen Xer and like I'll actually the organization was talking about copilot and you know how our organization is using copilot and ChatGPT. That was, a previous conversation, but she's actually I'll ask her first, like, hey, are you using copilot and what are you using that for? And then she gives me innovative ideas.

Tricia (00:47:46) - So yeah, she's using it.

David (00:47:49) - Wow. She's she's giving you the resource, I think. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (00:47:52) - I don't she's.

Tricia (00:47:53) - Keeping me hip. That's what I like to say.

Speaker 3 (00:47:55) - Yeah I love that I love that.

David (00:47:57) - All right. Number three, employees from what department would be the worst at HR?

Speaker 3 (00:48:05) - I.

Tricia (00:48:05) - Feel like I would have declined this.

Speaker 3 (00:48:07) - One I believe it I.

Tricia (00:48:09) - Mean, I would say anyone who doesn't like to talk a lot, so, you know, maybe traditionally tech folks like, more like development tech folks, you know, which we obviously have a lot of with our roles, we have a lot of communicators within our tech space because they're doing consulting. So, they do need to be on. I was thinking maybe sales. Right. Like, you know, whoever maybe doesn't want to be the developers and enforcers of rules. It feels like sales will be a part of that. Anyone that's not good at filling the pregnant pause. That's who.

Speaker 4 (00:48:48) - I.

David (00:48:48) - Love that feeling.

David (00:48:49) - The pregnant pause. I'm gonna have to add that to speak. Funny, but that is.

Speaker 3 (00:48:52) - Oh. That's true. Oh, no.

David (00:48:56) - Oh, no. It's good though, I like it.

Speaker 3 (00:48:57) - I like in a good way.

David (00:48:59) - Yes, I support pregnant pauses, I support. Pregnant pauses. Okay, well, with that, we are already at the end. Tricia, it's been amazing to chat with you. So we're going to end with a wrapping up. Cheers to change. So before the pandemic, only 6% of American workers worked primarily from home. And Forbes just announced that by 2025, 22% of Americans will work from home. Now, I know that everyone has a lot of strong opinions about, you know, Aarto. And is it good? Is it not? But what I can say is, for many people in their lives, being able to work from home has been transformational, positive in terms of what they can do in their lives accordingly. So I'm grateful for the organizations that have allowed that to continue to be the case.

David (00:49:47) - I'm grateful for for Tricia, for you participating in this podcast from a company that that embraces work for.

Speaker 3 (00:49:53) - Yes.

David (00:49:54) - And, and it's been lovely to chat with you and catch up, and I wish you the best of luck as as you grow and Navient continues to grow and thrive in this new post-pandemic world. All right.

Tricia (00:50:04) - Well, thank you, David. It was great to get connected and have me on today.

David (00:50:08) - Yay! All right.

Speaker 3 (00:50:08) - Cheers. Cheers.