Hello and welcome to the VP Life podcast,

the show where we bring you actionable

health advice from needing minds.

I'm your host Rob.

My guest today is Simo, a testicular

cancer survivor who, through trial and

error, developed a system to help him

optimize his hormonal

health and regain his vitality.

Expect to learn how Simo overcame a

cancer diagnosis and then tripled his

testosterone levels, how testosterone is

optimally produced in the human body, and

how Simo is able to help clients optimize

their own levels without the use of TRT.

Now, on to the conversation with Simo.

Good morning Simo.

This one's been a long time coming and

after a lot of back and forth we were

finally able to make it happen and I'm

excited to chat all

things testosterone with you.

Timing is actually pretty spot on too as

we recently hosted Sonya Spill from Vinyl

Coaching to discuss female health and

optimization thereof.

So it'll be good to complete the picture

in this regard, the male side of things.

First things first though, your story.

I know it started on the back end of a

cancer diagnosis which is what then led

you down this path to helping men then

optimize their own testosterone levels.

So yeah, if you could give us the

breakdown there and then we can jump into

the nuts and bolts of

today's conversation.

Yes, that was a rehearsed

part and yes, I'm proud of it.

Thanks for having me on

Robert, it's good to be here.

So, yeah, about 10 years ago when I was

20, I got the dreaded C word that you

certainly don't expect but you definitely

do not expect it when you're at 20 and

that really was a pivotal point in my

life because as a young man, I thought I

was invincible, I thought I could do

anything and then suddenly my masculinity

was being questioned in ways that I could

never have quite

comprehended to be honest.

And then I had a procedure, I came out of

that and then after the operation, I

started dealing with a lot of low T

symptoms that really plagued my life

after that which were low energy, low

drive, lack of confidence, very insecure

and so it was a mixture of emotional

symptoms and physical symptoms around

gaining muscle and all of these other

desirable effects that can come from

having optimized T levels.

So through trying an error and making

hundreds of mistakes and trying every

diet under the sun and all of these

different modalities and protocols, I

finally three or four years ago stumbled

across a protocol that I now call the

TESTA2X method that got me feeling happy,

healthy, driven, ambitious, all of these

kind of aspirational traits as men that

we need to dominate

the lives that we want.

So that's where I'm at now.

Yeah, those alpha characteristics.

I'm not a cancer biologist by any stretch

of the imagination but it is pretty

fascinating that so many young guys,

especially sort of well under 40 tend to

sort of end up with testicular cancer.

I know it's a bit of a long shot, but can

you speculate as to why

that maybe is the case?

Yeah, I think it's a

really good question.

I think it's a really good question

because I think a lot of people associate

cancer with something

you get when you're older.

They associate it with like genetic

dysfunction as you get older and it's

interesting because you've got cancers

like testicular cancer that are more

prevalent in younger men from 2030.

So there's a bit of a kind of paradox you

could say there, which

I think is fascinating.

I think the reason for that, my suspicion

is our environment has

become extremely toxic.

What I mean by that is our exposure to

heavy metals, to xenoestrogens, to

plastics, to aluminum and deodorant,

there's a myriad of substances that are

now pervasive in a lot of things that we

kind of take for granted and we just

assume are innocent and maybe okay when

actually they're not.

And if you stack all of these different

kind of micro stresses up that have all

these toxins in, whether it's your

deodorant, your skin care products, your

foods, your, you

know, there's a long list.

If you stack that up over a long period

of time, you know, the body can become

overwhelmed and I'm convinced, I'm

convinced there's a compelling hypothesis

that the reason I got testicular cancer

was because at the time I was living a

very toxic lifestyle and if I think back

to that time, there was things that I was

doing that may not have been conducive to

good testicular health, put it that way.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, it's definitely a nuanced question

and it's sort of something I did a bit of

research into just sort of in preparation

for this podcast and specifically that

question because yeah, like I said, it is

fairly nuanced and I discovered anywhere

that the testes are formed primarily from

what are called germ cells and those are

more likely to develop into other cells

whereas you have, they are pluripotent,

whereas you have your things like, well,

not things, but cells like heart cells

that generally aren't affected as they

mature and they're less likely to become

mutagenic and

diversifying to other sorts of cells.

But yeah, I suppose that's a tangent,

probably something best

had with an oncologist.

Yes.

Yeah, I probably actually

need to get one of those on.

Yeah, anyway, testosterone.

So as you've already alluded to, or one

of us has, it's an epidemic and there are

lots of guys with low T at the moment.

Now you've already alluded to some of the

reasons as to why that has become, as to

why it's become such an issue, but do you

have beyond that any suspicions as to why

we are, as a society, are struggling,

well, the men in our society are

struggling with low T levels?

Yeah, I think it's a really good question

because, and I think it's quite a complex

answer because I think it's so

multifaceted because I do think if you

think about what underpins our vitality

and our vibrancy in terms of how it's

aligned with high testosterone, it's

like, well, how do you, what are key

habits or ways of living that have been

proven that can be detrimental to

testosterone levels?

And I think we're now with screen use and

our sedentary lifestyle

and convenience culture.

I think that's getting increasingly more

endemic and I think people are finding it

increasingly more difficult to eat whole,

eat whole good food, to go and do some

exercise and move more, get outside.

All of these kind of basic things that I

think we take for granted, I think are

just not as popular as they were, let's

say 50, 60 years ago.

And there's a reason why our grandfathers

had double the

testosterone that men do now

in terms of lifestyles that they were

living relative to now because you just

didn't have the same amount of stresses.

And I do think now with phones and the

culture that we live in, there is a lot

more, stress seems to be more persistent

throughout the day, not only

in terms of the way that we

approach our work, but also things, you

know, 56 years ago where they didn't, you

know, agricultural

practices were different.

We didn't use the same amount of

chemicals that we did.

Skin, you know, all of the personal care

products were very different.

You didn't have the same additives,

preservatives, all the

rest of it like you do now.

So I do think that there is a myriad of

different elements that are in our

lifestyle that have evolved really quite

drastically from 50, 60 years ago.

And I do think it's for the worse.

And that's having a huge impact on our

toxicity load and therefore, you know,

our body's ability to thrive and feel

good, you know, as it pertains to

testosterone and other

hormones and everything else.

You know, it's not just testosterone.

It's so it's very comprehensive.

Yeah, no, I mean, I couldn't agree more

on that makes total sense.

We recently had Dr.

Jenny Goodman on the podcast and will be

interviewing Adam

Parker in the next few weeks.

And they're both steeped in that side of

it, the terrain theory of

why we get unwell to society.

Yeah, just this high toxic burden that

then has this trickle down effect on the

way that mitochondria function and the

hormones, etc, etc, etc.

And yeah, it's just it's very simple when

you understand how these systems break,

what's more challenging is then sort of

putting them back together.

As I found both my own experience and

with working with with

with people along the way.

It's a simple system to break.

It's that it's not as easy

one to put back together.

It's very much a case of Humpty Dumpty.

Dumpty had a great fall and fell apart

and all the king's horses and all the

king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty

back together again.

I know that obviously hormone

optimization is to one is

maybe somewhat easier than that.

But when you get more complex sort of

along covid sorts of

issues, it is it is a problem.

I would I would add as well, I think

something that I see a lot of clients is

like we overlook a lot of people look at

testosterone and isolation.

You know, they they see I have got low T

and therefore they

think that that's the cause.

And actually, we mentioned all the

environmental factors.

But like, for instance, I see a lot of

guys that have got dysfunction.

We know like gut inflammation is

inversely correlated with with

testosterone levels.

The same with cortisol.

We know cortisol is is is very inversely

correlated with testosterone.

And the same with thyroid function.

If you've got thyroid dysfunction, you

will not get high testosterone.

Like you need your

thyroid to be optimized.

So there's these other glands and organs

that we have that are absolutely critical

for ensuring that testosterone is allowed

to do the job that it needs to.

Because if if if those other areas are

not functioning properly, then there's

huge downstream consequences.

I think when you work with someone more

functional or

integrative, they understand that.

Whereas in the conventional space, it's

not not all of them, but some of them

tend to be very myopic with regards to

like you have low T and therefore you

need to need to correct that with an

injectable or pellet, whatever it might

be without kind of

asking, well, why is it low?

So, yeah.

Yeah,

no, it's it's modern

medicine is very siloed.

And I mean, everybody's made this point

on every podcast going.

But yeah, if you if you break an arm,

you're going to any

there's no question about that.

But yeah, if you've got a functional

metabolic disease, you're almost better

off trying to sort it out yourself

because the system as it stands is not

catered to support that that type of

dysfunction within the body.

Yeah, you yeah, before we get off topic

again, I want to come back to the

discussion a little bit later on.

But before yeah, before we go completely

off topic, I'd love to get

your thoughts on TRT as a whole.

Now, obviously, it has its place.

But it's often seen as a sort of a first

line treatment option for any young man

or old man for that or

anyone that's ageism, isn't it?

I can't say that.

For anyone who presents as hypogonado or

with symptoms of low T.

But yeah, what are your

thoughts on TRT as a whole?

Yeah, I think TRT is exploding right now.

And I think it's part of it's part of a

greater symptom of this convenience

culture where, like with anything you

tend to when you start something you tend

to there's a bias towards searching for the benefits for the good things about it.

And you don't tend to search about the

negatives or the side effects.

And that, you know, I'm guilty of that.

I've done that in the past.

I think, you know, we do that.

But yeah, whether it supplements, you

know, you always ask what's the benefits

of this, you never you never

ask what's the side effects.

Right.

And I think with TRT, I do

think there's a place for it.

And I do think if you have pathological

hypogonadism, where there is genuine

dysfunction, then then fine, like I think

that makes that makes perfect that

there's a reasonable case to be made,

where even if you were to do lifestyle

tweaks or adjustments or changes,

and that didn't work, then I think the

case for TRT is compelling.

But I, I at the moment,

I think too many men

and a lot of the culture,

or too many men want

that instant gratification.

And I think the it's very easy to just

associate, okay, well, I have these symptoms of low T.

And therefore,

I'll just get injectable or appellate or

topical, whatever it is that the

anabargels or whatever it might be.

And it's a very,

you know, rather than doing that, the

hard thing of lifestyle change, i.e.

changing what you're eating or your

habits, you know, the TRT presents, it's

almost like, you know, with pills going

to a pharmacy, it's

the same kind of concept.

It's like, well,

it's the kind of it's the easy way to rectify something that's nine times out

of 10, it's going to be solved through

something that you're doing that's not

conducive to high testosterone.

And I know that's a hard thing to

comprehend, because we don't like to look

at ourselves in the mirror and be like,

ah, it's me, we know, we don't want to

take responsibility, we kind of want to

outsource and point fingers and blame

others and say, well, it's not me, it's

something else that's happening.

And actually, in my humble experience,

nine times out of 10, it is

something that we're doing.

And it can be innocent, you know, it's not our fault. It's not as if we're

intentionally trying to harm ourselves.

You know, it's we're all we're all doing

the best with what we

know and what we can.

But I, I do think a lot of men overlook

just how easy it is to feel better just

literally by changing what

you eat quite, quite literally.

I see that all the time.

Yeah, no, again, very sage words.

And I think what's also important to

realize is that quite often, if you have

an underlying issue,

as you mentioned earlier, maybe some sort

of disposable underlying infection or

high amount of toxic exposure that's then

caused that that low T further

downstream, then replacing this

testosterone may not actually give you

the results that you're after, because

you're still not dealing with the

underlying condition, you're just dealing

with the symptoms thereof.

So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's still, it's

still it's, it's still, it's a bit of a

double edged sword, but I still think

anyone who, even if they have a

compelling reason to use TRT should still

look at treating the underlying

dysfunction as well.

It's, as you said yourself,

it's just so multi factorial.

Just another question off there, have you

ever worked with guys who've tried to

come off TRT or who are Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

And it depends is again, it's nuanced.

Like, I think it depends how long you've

been on it, what you've been using, like

HCG, there's some like, whether like a

lot of the guys, it's not always TRT and

there's other, there's

other factors as well.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And so, depending on the image rule, I

think there's

different ways to approach it.

But it's, it is, it is definitely doable.

And you can definitely restore, you know,

a lot of people say, oh, what you lose,

you know, you tank your fertility, you

lose your testicular

function, all the rest of it.

And those definitely are side effects and

something to be mindful of, but you using

the right working with the right person

and getting the right advice, you can

rectify it and get that and restore

natural function, but it

is definitely delicate.

It's definitely a delicate one.

Yeah, no, it's, yeah, you're right.

And I think what most people don't

realize is that you don't just come off

TRT and then sort of instantly

reestablish a baseline, baseline

functionality, you're almost at a deficit

now where you, where you're not

necessarily just trying to correct low

levels, you're trying

to jumpstart the system.

And then you're, you start to look, you

got to look at various compounds, maybe

pharmaceuticals that help

to essentially get that,

that, that neurology almost back online.

Simo, I'd like to

backtrack slightly if that's okay.

And maybe chat about some of the

underlying physiology.

I know, I know it can

be a bit denser subject.

So if you were to help myself in the

audience understand how testosterone is

produced in the body, I think it would

set the tone for the

rest of the conversation.

Now, obviously, we don't have to go into

the sorts of the depths of star protein

expression and cholesterol transport.

But yeah, at high level, how does this

thing that is sort of commonly called the

hypothalamic gonadal axis operate?

And how does that then lead on to the

production of testosterone?

Yeah, so you've got, there's a delicate

process with luteinizing hormone, LH, and

follicle stimulating hormone, FSH.

Okay.

And they act like they're almost a good

way to think about it is they are

produced from the HbH

axis in the, in your brain.

And they, they, it's like pedals on a

car, like accelerate and brake.

Okay.

And what they do is they then the signals

then come down to the brains and

testicles, you've got the lady cells and

the satorine cells, okay.

And that's, there's a dynamic or there's

a dynamic that goes on there that helps

then produce testosterone, which is the

derivative of cholesterol.

And that's, that's an interesting point

we can, we can, we can touch on.

But, and depending on your, the health of

the LH and the FSH function, and also, I

mean, five alpha reductase comes into

this as well at some point, which I think

is another interesting point

that we can, we can touch on.

But yeah, those, those

pedals, you want working properly.

And so, because if they're working

properly, that whole system with dynamic

with the brain and the testicles in order

to produce testosterone, which goes in,

which is derived from cholesterol, then

you've got a pregnenolone, and then in

pregnenolone, you've got DHEA, and then

you've got downstream

of that, you then got T.

And so, assuming that system works, you

know, everything's done,

is everything's done fine.

But you can, you know, a good marker,

whether it's primary or secondary

hypogonadism, hypogonadism can come into

your levels of, you know, whether you've

got low, very low levels of FSH or LH or

very high levels of FSH or LH.

So, the FSH and LH is

definitely critical.

Like, if anyone's looking to get markers

done, like, they're

definitely a key component.

But like you said at the start, before we

went online, like, the

SHPG is key, albumin is key,

like some of the binding proteins, and

then, you know, free T, I think is very

underrated, people tend to focus on total

T, and then yeah, your, your DHEA,

sulfate and pregnant alone.

So anyway, there's, there's,

there's, how would you call it?

There's, there's

components within that chain.

Yes.

And it's very delicate.

So that's why you've, when you're going

to approach something like overcoming low

T, it's what you need to work with

someone that understands all of these

different components, so that you're not

kind of jumping to something whereby it

may be easily resolvable through some of

these other components that

may not be working properly.

Yeah, I think when someone's struggling,

they take, they tend to take a very

reductionist view of things and they, and

they look for that one solution that's

been marketed to them as, as being the,

the one-stop fixall.

And, and yeah, I mean, obviously, the

world is on a bell-shaped curve.

So for some people, that might work, but

for the majority people, as you've just

alluded to, they need a more

comprehensive approach.

Thank you for that.

You actually almost answered my next

question, which was to now differentiate

the, the difference between, between

primary and secondary hypergonadism,

because yeah, I think, sorry, that's,

that's important to realize, because

depending on which one you have, you may

be then better off maybe going down the

TRT route to begin with.

But yeah, I'd love it if you could just

break down those concepts for us.

And yeah, for sure.

And I think the easy way to decide for

this is primary hypergonadism, gonadism,

is, whereas it pertains

to tessel slip dysfunction.

So what, what, what, what we're talking

about there is like the majority of

tessel serine in men is

produced in the ladyx cells.

Okay.

It's like, it counts for about 95% of

circulating tessel serine.

Okay.

Whereas, and so if you have, if you have

dysfunction in the ladyx cells, and to

some degree, this is

totally cells, that's

through that can be from environmental

toxins, there's a myriad of things that

can, that can get in the way there, then

that's what we, that's what we define as

primary hypergonadism.

But secondary, what you have

is positive with the brain.

So there's a, there's a, there's a

feedback loop that is where you have the,

the hypothalamus, okay, it releases

something called gonadotropin.

Okay.

And what happens there is you have the,

there's a dynamic with the, the

hypothalamus and the gonadotropin, the

pituitary, and you have key hormones,

luteinizing hormone and follicle,

follicle stimulating hormone.

And what happens is the luteinizing

hormone signals to the ladyx cells in the

testes to start producing tessel serine.

Like I, like I mentioned, I think

offline, like you have this, I like to

call it this kind of, this kind of pedal

dynamic, like you have in a car, like

this accelerator and

this stop-start dynamic.

And assuming LH function and FSH, FSH

function are optimized and working well

and being secreted in the right way,

you'll be able to then produce tessel

serine in the right way.

But sometimes there is factors that come

into impeding that function, that dynamic

in the brain that can sometimes inhibit

LH and FSH function, or sometimes the

accelerator goes too high and equally

that can be, that can have negative

downstream consequences as well.

So, so primary, think testicles, balls,

think ladyx cells, okay, secondary, think

brain, okay, and the signals with the FSH

and LH that is coming from the pituitary

gland and the hypothalamus.

Yeah, no, I think that's, that's, again,

sound advice and will definitely help.

The last bit of physiology I'd sort of

like to touch on is this idea of SHBG.

Now this is what's called a glycoprotein

and it's often overlooked.

Men will go straight to get a

testosterone check from somewhere like

MediCheck or wherever, they get one

online and or just give them this one-off

reading of testosterone, which obviously

provides you with some

level of information,

but it's also, also a little,

not disconcerting, what's the word, it

doesn't tell you the whole picture

because there's this

idea of free testosterone.

So could you sort of enlighten us as to

the difference between as to what SHBG is

and why it's important?

Yeah, so SHBG plays a significant role in

regulating testosterone.

It's a protein produced primarily in the

liver that binds to sex hormones,

including testosterone in the

bloodstream, okay, and what you have is

it combined, it can bind very tightly to

testosterone and other hormones like for

instance like estrogen and different like

estrogen metabolites,

making it biologically inactive while

bound, but only the unbound or like the

free T, the free testosterone, is

available to enter the cells and exert

its effects on tissues such as you know

promoting muscle growth, libido and other

like antigenic functions.

So what you'll find is if you have high

SHBG, more testosterone gets bound,

reducing the free T.

So like you'll find that this can like,

it's very typical that if someone has

high SHBG, they'll have like decreased

energy, libido, even muscle mass,

and the total T can actually appear to be

normal in that case, but if you have low

SHBG and more

testosterone remains unbound.

So what can then happen is it can then

free up, you get increasing free

testosterone and then this can amplify

testosterone's effects and that's the

part that you're able then to get the

effects like associated with high

testosterone because the free T marker

really is more synonymous with a more

credible marker of what's actually

biologically active that your body can

actually utilize and do something with.

So there's definitely factors like

affecting SHBG levels like for instance

like this you know like estrogen can

increase SHBG like health conditions like

liver because it comes from the liver

like if you've got liver dysfunction that

can play into it like thyroid is a huge

aspect in that as well and like as we've

mentioned already like lifestyle is key

so there's definitely like yeah there's

definitely a myriad of aspects again it

is quite complex but I do think you know

like we discussed offline like it's an

underrated aspect that feeds into the

testosterone realm that I think a lot of

people tend to overlook and the same with

albumin as well to some degree.

Yeah no these carrier proteins are

definitely important and they are also

they're also modulated as you mentioned

by things like diet and various other

factors stress is another big one.

And I think it's also important excuse me

to sort of note that SHBG can be too low

as well and then you can which is a point

you were making earlier excuse me

regarding thalvatifoloreductase if you

then have again as you know too much free

testosterone that can then 5-alfrode use

into excess DHT which is can also be a

problem well not only for its

associations with hair loss but there's

also some evidence evidence and I mean

this goes backwards and forwards between

estrogen DHT and estrogen but there are

potentially some issues there with the

prostate as well so point being is that

you want to have SHBG as I'm sure you'll

agree and that sort of that happy zone

not too low and not too high so yeah it's

something that I think

guys just generally need to be aware of

when trying to optimize their levels and

again why it's imperative to work with

someone like yourself when sort of

working their way through this with this

journey of low T but yeah

okay so I think we've covered

we've got a pretty good baseline now of

of what testosterone is

how it's produced in the body

I'd love to pivot into your system though

I don't expect you to give away all your

IP but at a high level would you just

mind us running through how you work with

people and then maybe an anonymous case

study just provide a practical example of

if that would be all right

just yeah for sure absolutely so what I

would say is that most men that come to

me and they are if I kind of set the

scene for like a context that that I do

very well or I excel in is where they

come to me where they're ambitious kind

of type a type guys and they find that

despite wanting to put the their kind of

proverbial foot on the accelerator

they're not able to get the response they

want they feel like they're dragging

themselves the drive isn't there as it

used to they're just not as sharp as they

used to be the conviction isn't there and

they've got this excess weight and

they've tried different things and they

can't seem to figure out how to get a

sustainable result okay so the excess

weight is there the energy is erratic

they get a morning burst afternoon they

start to fight they rely on cultures like

caffeine same in the evening like you

know they get back lie on the sofa they

just kind of zonked out and their

intimacy sex drive just isn't what it

used to be like it's something that

they'll that they will engage in but they

just the the appetite is gone so that's

like a typical symptomology of what I

tend to find and what I do in terms of

the method is it's usually over three

months in the first month we focus on

nutrition and really like I I would say

80% of guys I work with tend to have some

form of gut pathology going on where they

have whether it's constipation bloating

diarrhea I don't know they seem they have

normalized some gut symptoms and I do

think gut health is probably the most

underrated aspect of testosterone

optimization and I think hormone

optimization generally I do think people

tend to just associate kind of gas and

some of these gut symptoms is kind of

normal and that they don't need closer

inspection and I find when you when you

put when I put guys on a on a on a on a

on a protocol yeah and when they start to

go to the bathroom more regularly and

their stalls are more normal they tend to

that is directly correlated with how they

feel you know they tend to feel better

they tend to have more energy they tend

to feel more confident in themselves so

what we do is I have a bias towards

making sure the guts in a happy place and

then we make sure that they're eating in

the right way so I a lot of these men

come to me from an intimate and fasting

background and I think this is an

interesting point and not not to digress

but a lot of them tend to eat a big lunch

and dinner and they forego a breakfast

and I find that when we reverse that and

we do a big breakfast and a big lunch and

we forego dinner they see a radical

improvement in their subjective state so

which I know kind of contradicts a lot of

kind of the a lot of the holistic health

space is dominated with kind of fasting

is this kind of panacea and I think I

definitely think in some cases depending

on what issue you have I definitely think

there's I definitely think that's huge

utility but I think there's nuance to it

that is often forgotten around like if

you're if you're nutrient density if your

stress levels are not in check and the

nutrient density of the food that you're

eating isn't high enough then you're

probably gonna you're gonna be

undernourished and that will start to in

some way I don't know break is the right

word but you'll start to deteriorate and

I do think a lot of people just think

that oh well if I shorten my window I'm

gonna be healthier it's like well no

that's that's very black and white and

we've missed a whole there's some found

key foundations within that within that

hypothesis that you're that you're

overlooking and I'm now seeing it

observationally with clients like every

single one that shifts to breakfast and

lunch not lunch and dinner sees radical

improvements in their sex drive energy

clarity all the rest of it so I

definitely think that's a I definitely

think that that's one of the points that

I mentioned I think throws the most

people just because of a lot of the

holistic health rhetoric that seems to

dominate you know intermittent fasting

being this kind of you

know amazing panacea yeah

yeah no again I couldn't agree more and I

think intermittent fasting definitely has

its place and but when you sort of skip

breakfast in in perpetuity uh in my

understanding what happens is that you

sort of you create this this dissociation

between your your normal circadian

biology and your ability to produce

hormones because I think what most so

many men miss is that the bulk of

testosterone production often often not

all the time sort of happens in the

morning so when you sort of lose that uh

that that zeitgeist as it's called that

circadian cue that uh that basically

tells your body to to wake up you're then

losing a lot of that hormonal signaling

that occurs and and and and that's the

fact that you've picked up that up is

incredible and I think sort of shifting

that schedule around is is genius so

congratulations that's that's that's a

great catch cool so I'd love it if we

could maybe just chat about some

supplements quickly now I know these are

thoughts of word uh they're hit and miss

some of them have some value um and

ultimately I think the things that move

the needle are are going to be yeah your

dietary precursors and and things that

support testosterone production zinc

magnesium etc but beyond that though that

there are a few that that keep on sort of

crawling crawling out the woodwork things

like boron tom garelli for dogeo gristers

um would you mind if we just ran through

these a few of this quickly and just

provides your your your thoughts on them

like perfect thank you

okay so first one first boron

I'm not you know what I'm I'm a I'm a fan

of natural derived boron I'm I'm not a

fan of synthetic derived boron um uh I

there is clear efficacy for boron having

a good effect on 3d levels I've you know

I I can that's kind of irrefutable but um

I'm very skeptical generally increasingly

and this is kind of more this is more of

a recent change that I've made up upon in

light of new research about just

synthetic supplements generally um I'm

increasingly hesitant anyway I can come

on to that at the end but we could I

don't I don't want to digress too much

but I definitely think um yeah boron has

its place but you know getting it from

things like raisins and natural sources

will will do you better and I don't I

think a lot of men place a lot of

emphasis on it as again there's panacea

at the expense of right well let's focus

on some of the nutrition fundamentals and

then we'll layer on top um so and then

you've got with boron you've got is it um

you've got borax you've got um you've got

uh I think what's it called boron

glistenate you've got different types of

boron and they have different efficacies

you know in terms of the form that you

buy so when you get the supplement itself

you know it's like with magnesium you've

got citrate carbonate sulfate and they've

all they've all they all the body

responds in different ways depending on

the form and boron's the same so it's

important if you're going to do it that

you get the right type

perfect answer thank you uh next one

which is to all the rage is tongue gatali

yeah tongue gat well it is because of

huberman you know anything that huberman

says everyone kind of uh bows down to is

this kind of he's kind of the overlord um

which is which is interesting but um so

tongue cat again it clearly has efficacy

and I think um and I don't think that's I

think that's undeniable but I'm skeptical

I know anecdotally a lot of men that had

huge digestive issues with with tongue

cat and again I know with tongue cat um

and um the sourcing of it depending a lot

of tongue cat is is um is from asia and

uh the regulations on like for instance

when you're looking at herbs you're then

looking at like heavy metals and um which

which are definitely uh an underrated

component in in under in evaluating

whether whether to take it but I I think

if you can source good stuff that is

certified certified clean of heavy metals

and substances that shouldn't be there

and they and they do exist I think it's

worth experimenting with at lower doses

and then I always recommend like titrate

up never start high and because you're

gonna there's a high risk but um I don't

think there's a place for it but I think

again a lot of the negatives and side

effects from anac that I've seen

anecdotally tend to be um tend to be

overlooked and I think it's I think

there's a lot of hype there I think

there's a lot of hype but I would say the

same thing you probably might yeah you

might mention fidosia I say the same

thing about fidosia again like I think

there's there is some good studies

showing efficacy but I'm skeptical um

like because a lot of it's done in animal

models with tomcat it's human I think

they've done some human randomized

control trials but in fidosia I think

that it's it's mainly animal models which

again like animal models give us a good

indicator they're not they're not

completely not you know they're not all

bad but we need more human models I think

really to understand is it you know is it

this really powerful substances that more

men should take or should more men just

eat more eggs meat um and these other

kind of very easy things that you can get

at your supermarket that I

think are are way more powerful

yeah definitely.

Tonka is an interesting one it seems to

act as an L.H. agonist um and sort of in

that way I suppose work in a similar

fashion to say it may be something like

hcg but yeah I mean you also can then a

lot of guys can completely crush their

shgb on shpg on on tonkats so yeah it's

uh it's it's something as you mentioned

you want to titrate out if you're going

to use it of course um cool uh let's

stick let's just stick to one more uh

something that's definitely well known

and that's ashwagandha

yeah ashwagandha is I know it's a very

popular one isn't it I think a lot of

people take it um for like stress

mitigation as well and I do it's now made

its way into the testosterone circle and

I'm you know I'm I'm definitely on the

spectrum of I'm very uh skeptical of

ashwagandha and I don't like it I never

recommend it and because I find it can it

can create this emotional numbing called

um I never get the word right it's called

anhedonia anhedonia that's it yeah and

there's a lot of cases of men that get

it's almost like anhedonia is a is like

um serotonin syndrome where you become I

mean I've had it myself because I went

six seven years ago I took

antidepressants and um and it it really

messes with your ability to think clearly

to feel driven to um to feel sharp so

again I think there's some men that

clearly take it and and feel good and

there's benefits but I'm anything in my

mind that raises serotonin to levels that

ashwagandha does I don't think is

inherently a good thing and I do think

without going down a tangent I think

serotonin itself is an interesting rabbit

hole just because I think a lot of people

just associate serotonin with being

inherently good like you want lots of it

and actually that you want some but you

don't want to you don't want to overcook

it like anything

because it can create problems

yeah it's another interesting point is

the fact that ashwagandha also can to

some degree inhibit 5 AR expression again

yes so um that that whole rabbit hole and

I'm sure we could have the finasteride

discussion as well yes um but yeah uh

definitely these compounds are best

utilized under the guys guide guys one of

the words one of those words of someone

who knows what they're doing um cool so I

don't think we can really have the

supplement discussion without having the

diet discussion um I know we sort of uh

picked around this topic a few times

already um but what are your views on

diet now I know there's a uh sorry just

to complete that there's a lot there and

uh there's a lot there are a lot of

people in the carnival keto side space

and then conversely on the other end of

the spectrum you've got your vegans and

bruterians um and I think most of these

diets have utility at the for the right

person at the right time yeah um but yeah

broadly speaking uh from a well an

optimization standpoint and then just a a

point of of just just life in general

what are your views on diet

when it comes to this area

yeah so I would say I've tried most diets

I've done vegan pescatarian carnival keto

uh I've done a lot of them and uh yeah

I've been deep you know carnivate steak

and eggs for like seven months which is

wild um and I do so I do think the best

diet is the one that's best for you and I

think a lot of people a lot of people say

well how do I know that's right for me or

how do I know it's best for me and I

understand that and what I would say is

depending on where I'm a bit different is

I think the main the main fundamental

template needs to needs to orientate

around animal foods because they're the

most nutrient dense um in terms of the

amount of your exposure to bioavailable

nutrients in terms of um nutrients the

body can actually utilize and do things

with effectively animal foods are

infinitely greater than plant foods but

what I would say is um I see animal foods

as builders and I see plant foods as like

cleansers so I'm not like you know I'm

not like a carnival that things plant

foods are these kind of evil demons I you

need you need vegetables because fiber's

great insoluble fiber's great for getting

rid of toxins and things in your gut

shouldn't be there you know fruit I think

is phenomenal I think it gets wrongly

demonized um uh you know it's a fantastic

source of all sorts of nutrients so but

where I'm where I may be different to

most people is depending on your latitude

I think determines on whether you go

higher carb or lower carbs what I mean by

that is like you know if you're in

Iceland for just as an extreme example

like a more ketogenic template is going

to be more favorable as opposed to if you

live on the equator and you've got lots

of sun um then naturally your your access

to fat is going to be a lot less like I'm

in Colombia right now and trying to find

fatty meat's really difficult trying to

find anything fatty is difficult because

it's a warm country so I think the nuance

that is missed is like where you are and

to some degree your genetic makeup you

know um and so what I recommend what I

recommend to most people is don't be

dogmatic don't don't because once you

find that you're in a carnival community

or a keto community like that's you're

then part of a cult okay and so what I

recommend is ever I think all of these

communities have good things and bad

things and I think it's wise to

experiment and be intentional about how

to experiment and then see and see how

you react like if you do a more

meat-based diet um make some subjective

markers like your energy your sleep and

then track that for a couple of weeks and

then maybe go more plant based and see

how you how you find it and I think by

doing that you'll then become more aware

of what you're eating and naturally

you'll start to find what what your

version is um so yeah I

guess that's what I would say

yeah sort of a very Jack Cruz come Paul

Saladino take on it I love characters

yeah no well I mean I do until I try and

start and try until I start trying to

listen to what he's talking about I know

it's funny it's sort of I understand the

biology uh my background is in biochem so

I get that aspect of it but when we start

going to the physics

robot homes yeah okay

he doesn't want to dumb it down he is

insistent and not wanting to dumb it down

yeah no it's definitely okay so right I'm

gonna re-listen to that five times and

then I'm worth it some of it I think he's

he's just down the road from you well

he's in El Salvador yeah he's in El

Salvador yeah so yeah he he's a character

of note uh on that's for

sure my my actual claim to fame is I

lived with Paul Saladino for three months

in Costa Rica I did you

yeah three years ago yeah okay

that that's an interesting one yeah I

know I emailed Paul our ones just

regarding uh working with him and at that

point he was charging $1,200 an hour so

that was about three or four years ago as

well so yeah how times have changed but

um yeah I think you emailed him now you'd

be lucky if lucky if his receptionist

replied yeah um but yeah anyway that's uh

it's strange how the world works anyway

moving on so yeah I think we've covered a

lot today and um really what I'd sort of

like to talk about next I think are your

views on on biohacking um now I hate the

term with with the passion but it's what

the industry's adopted so we kind of got

to stick with it to some extent anyway um

but yeah what are your thoughts on the on

the idea that you can use technology to

essentially take shortcuts and sort of

support or augment your production with

various gizmos and gadgets so

you know if you'd asked me this four or

five years ago I would have said oh I'm

all for it it's great it's amazing um but

my view on it now is completely different

in the way that I do think a lot of

people in health optimization space

particularly in the holistic health

optimization space they end up being

quite neurotic and you end up the

biohacking or the pursuit of biohacking

in of itself becomes this kind of

self-obsessed uh journey that I think can

mentally impede you and I think it it can

lead to your your optimization kind of

forming your entire identity um and so I

I think I actually think in order to go

forward I'm a believer in like a lot of

the best techniques are ancestral like go

back you know what I mean like eating a

whole food diet like having a sauna um I

mean there's a long list but um and I do

think biohacking has is is dwarfing or no

morphing into this kind of more

transhumanistic um abyss whereby um

there's just this fierce pursuit to want

to find this marginal gain that the shape

might not help yeah yeah and and and it's

incredibly ambiguous you know whether

you've got the sulfurophane in in um what

is it in broccoli broccoli sprout yeah

yeah all the risk there's the resveratrol

in your yeah like and then you know

you've got people like David Sinclair who

who make I you know I

think he has great intentions

he's the biggest con artist going

I think he is as well yeah I think he is

as well I'm glad you said that I'm glad

you said that because I he they propagate

these things these molecules as if as if

they're this panel this cure all to all

your problems and it's like it's it's so

ambiguous it's so ambiguous and and it

just trades the hell out of me to be

polite you know um um so I'm glad you

said that because I think him and his

other names who are they are they are

distracting people from just just eat

just eat right and be consistent that it

move as much as you can get outside um

they just do the do the basics and be

consistent at them stop stop getting so

caught up in these kind of these other um

these other things that yeah may or may

not work because it just you know it

takes you away from the being present

from living spending time with family

kids like there's just a lot of other

things that I think are more meaningful

that that will um that will that will

feed your soul I think that's what I

think that's what I'm gonna get at in

summary is a lot of it's quite soulless

you know uh and I think yeah

yeah no I sort of look at it as sort of

technological orthorexia yes

that's a better way of putting it yeah

and it's it definitely has its place I

mean uh things like red light I think can

be useful but again if you're not

standing in the sunshine or getting some

sunshine in daily um there's very little

point in spending 2000 pounds in a post

red light uh therapy setup if you're not

getting in your the rest of the natural

light spectrum so yeah yeah again it's

it's they're useful tools but they're

never going to replace the basics I think

through all my sort of experimentation

trials tribulations etc I've come with

the conclusion that you can't outsmart

mother nature you you can definitely try

but you will fail miserably um but yeah

uh support to the best we'll have to have

the uh the conversation about who we

don't like uh offline I think we I've

just started this but it's it's too early

to get cancelled uh right okay

so I would also I would also say like I

do on one level I understand like we now

live in a modern environment surrounded

by emfs and all sorts of things that we

didn't use to so I do think there's a

case to some form of biohacking inverted

commas to some degree just because you

need modern modern solutions to modern

problems but I think yeah

it's just the god sorry go on

no of course I couldn't agree more and we

had I had a conversation with Tristan

Scott who I'm sure you're familiar with

the real eye computer and we went down

the wi-fi rabbit and it's yeah no I'm

definitely a believer in the fact that

non-atv myth is a problem and as you

pointed out we then should sort of hack

our environments whether it's with hard

wired connections um or not to sort of

get around those issues but uh ultimately

we should somehow strive to just create

an environment where we don't have to

deal with those problems to begin with um

which is unfortunately easier said than

done I mean uh I I have a wi-fi

connection running now to have this

conversation with you so it's it's

definitely finding that a happy middle

ground I think which and and then yeah

creating solutions as best you can around

it um I suppose that is where hacking

your environment probably is is a good

thing um okay so I know you've probably

had just about enough of me by now but uh

before we sort of start to uh close up

I'd love to ask your your thoughts on

testing um and and where you start with

this when working with clients

yeah so what I do is I a lot of I'm a bit

different in the sense of like I alluded

to at the start like if someone has low t

it's usually in nearly all cases it's not

testosterone it's a problem it's it's

other it's other things going on in their

hormonal apparatus that is that is

impacting testosterone so like I alluded

to the start about thyroid or gut or

liver okay so for example like with

testing how that comes into testing is

like getting you know TSH like in terms

of the thyroid profile getting the

relevant markers done in thyroid in terms

of liver giving the relevant markers

tested within the liver function and the

same to some degree gut if we can

depending on on the symptoms but I we we

establish a hormonal baseline based on

like for instance like you've got

prolactin you've got you know even what

else is involved in their thyroid liver

prolactin I mean there's there's there's

estrogen yeah exactly exactly um so that

there's there's numerous key hormones

that depending on the testing will help

determine how we then approach things and

they give us a really good indicator

really solid indicator of like for

instance you know you've got thyroid

dysfunction well well that's well there's

your there's your answer as to why the

other two or it's the same with like gut

function I mean so it's once you

establish that baseline it's then very

easy to understand okay cool this is how

we need to then tailor the approach to

make sure that you're getting that you're

getting an individual an individualized

um personalized personalized yeah

approach that um ensures that it's

relevant for you and that you're not

being kind of crowbarred into a box and I

think that's where and I think testing I

absolutely think testing has its place

and I but I do think testing isn't as

objective as people think it is like

you've got you know I believe in saliva

testing for cortisol and dha sulfate I

think it's more credible than blood

testing because you um and so I do think

there's some cases to be made for like

for instance like if you want to be heavy

metals you know doing urine and blood not

hair um so again it's it's nuanced um uh

I think blood testing has its place but I

think along with like I mentioned the

examples there and along with your

subjective state you know for instance

the thyroid taking your temperature in

the morning seeing if it's um at the

right level your heart rate if you've got

you know an extremely low heart rate it's

not always favorable that can be

indicative of you've got um some maybe

some like low old old dusterone or you've

got um you know uh thyroid dysfunction so

it's yeah it's testing's key it has its

it has its place but it definitely has

its pitfalls and I definitely think the

subjective state can say a lot as well I

think um it's it I think it's making sure

that you're recognizing all of it so that

it's a very holistic picture

comprehensive yeah are you doing any

specific gut testing sort of organic

acids uh GI maps anything like that

yeah do you know the GI maps is something

that we'll do I think that's a really

good one I think that's definitely one of

the better ones in the space um so um

we'll we'll dig into we'll dig it we'll

we'll do that if it's if it's appropriate

but I I do find depending on the the

extreme how extreme the the symptoms are

as it pertains to the gut um in most

cases it's it's usually pretty usually

pretty resolvable through just making

some nutritional and supplement tweaks

but if we if for the reason those don't

work then we will we will then resort to

more comprehensive testing

using like you said GI maps

yeah I think we're on a similar

wavelength there and I think what most

people um especially if they're not if

drugs aren't their first protocol um fail

to realize is that the interventions are

largely uh the same uh through uh

irrespective of the person so testing

doesn't necessarily have to come straight

off the bat because you unless you are

maybe looking for something specific like

a thyroid issue like you mentioned um but

when you start to make those necessary uh

changes as as within your protocol for

example most people will start to sort of

universally improve as a result of those

of those um processes uh being

implemented so I I think testing is great

but it doesn't necessarily have to be run

initially it can be run as a

troubleshooting point further down the

line if necessary uh necessitated uh

versus yeah as a well we've got to test

you at baseline to establish where you

are well we know where you are where you

are is rubbish so let's improve from

there and then track later on

yes exactly yeah

cool okay I see well I think yeah as I

mentioned we've covered a lot so maybe to

end off um we could just run through some

rapid fire questions and lightning round

as it were and uh we can yeah uh call it

a day then would that be okay yeah sounds

good okay cool brilliant so if you had to

choose just one lifestyle change to boost

testosterone levels more than the

eat more eggs

perfect okay what's the most common

mistake guys make when trying to increase

testosterone levels relying on

supplements can women benefit from these

same principles yes what's the one over

the counter supplement you would turn to

if you could pick only one

topical magnesium chloride

perfect and a controversial one to end up

end off with a scrotal

sunbathing yay on a sorry

yay yay if it's appropriate

fair enough yeah um do you know this has

been an amazing conversation where can

people find you yeah

so on twitter I'm just uh simo um that's

that's the best place

okay brilliant we'll link to uh all your

social uh excuse me the socials in the

show notes and uh yeah thanks again this

has been an amazing conversation

yeah thanks for having me Rob it's been

great it's been great to chat to you